I look at your skin and I'm going to

come over now oh no then I go around

here turning Woodall beauty queen of the

screen founder and CEO of Trini London

one of the fastest growing companies in

Europe have a great day I went two

phases in my early 20s of not knowing

who I was and turning to drugs I went to

rehab I hope that you'd been kicked out

the first time for playing a porn video

Yeah it backfired we had was a huge

beginning of the change in my life and I

went into a whole new world following a

20-year career in media Tony took a left

turn in the makeup industry here we are

250 million dollars later welcome to

Trinity London a lot of people have this

stigma that you can't start a business

at 53 crap are you just just

number but you need energy passion

perseverance I sold my house hardly

earning any money but I thought I'm

never going to give up ask yourself how

much do you want to be successful what

are you prepared to give up you strike

me some that's incredibly driven what's

the cost very big question probably

oddly

you had a partner who was unwell yeah

and the thing you think will never

happen happens he died by Suicide yeah

yeah where do you get to in your brain

when you are so worried about your

children that you can convince yourself

that the best thing is that you're not

in their life anymore

was there anything I could have done

stop it

I think this is fascinating I looked at

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pretty

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you've got a very um

distinct Personality yeah

you and you know that you're well aware

of that right

I know who I am

but your personality is very

you're very straightforward yeah

um and all of these sort of defining

traits of your personality and I'm

wondering if that was when that

personality was formed or when it

started to emerge

things happen in your life that that

begin to you know fine-tune and Define

who you're going to be and I went

definitely through phases you know I

went through phases in my late teens

early 20s of of turning to drugs just to

not being happy with who I was not not

feeling not knowing who I was sometimes

people turned to drugs because they just

don't know who they are and they want to

you know they have an inner lack of

confidence and I definitely had an inner

lack of confidence and outwardly

when I talk to people and I look back at

the time they might say

you just were this very mesmerizing

person and I just remember that internal

sense of feeling

so lost so profoundly lost and

so when I got clean at 26 27

that was a huge beginning of the change

in my life I was so relieved that my 20s

were over so relieved because it you

know it was like that was the beginning

of that that's wash that away

and that was a big moment for me to

begin to

work out who I was that was the first

moment probably you're

um using drugs at 16 I presume was quite

a recreational thing yeah I think we all

dabbled yeah at that age

um when did it when did you realize that

it wasn't a recreational thing anymore

and that it was an addiction

I think

I was about 22 and

I felt my life didn't have Direction and

my my family were very frustrated with

me they felt I changed and like any

family where they have a child who has

addiction they they can if they don't

know they just see change and they think

why is my child changing

you know so

I think they saw that and it was a

relief

to say you know I I use drugs and I

remember my dad said well now you've

told me you can stop and I remember my

brother saying I think it might be

harder than that

so

I went to rehab and

I then left the rehab after a period of

time and

you left the rehab yeah no I was kicked

out the First Rehab but I then

went to meetings

and there's one thing about recovery is

that

when you first get in recovery you

you need to let go of your old friends

who you've been with who are using and

you're about to make new friends so that

moment is

loneliness can take you back to Old

habit after about I don't know maybe six

months

I missed my old friends and I hadn't

made enough new ones and I saw them and

then you know I

relapsed

and then I went back to meetings and

then you're in this horrible little

in-between place

when you know about recovery

and you continue to use

it's not so there's something about an

ignorance of recovery you know there's a

kind of sense that

you don't know there's another way so

you don't feel guilty every time you do

and so what it brings is it brings guilt

every single time

I had three really really good friends

and we were all using one night and we I

said

let's all

make a pack we'll go to rehab tomorrow

and two of them had been and one of them

had never been but we made this Pact

late night you know that thing we're

going to do this we're going to conquer

the world and we're going to go to rehab

so then the next morning

I woke up and I still had that feeling

which is rare

so I called a therapist that I knew and

I said I need to go but I have a window

of opportunity which is so small

I need to go literally in the next two

hours because I am scared of myself that

I'll change my mind

so he got me in somewhere and stayed

there for five months and I sold

what I had to pay for it some very

tragic thing happens in that time and

one of the people died and then

one of the people that said they're

going to go to rehab with you yeah and

then

I went to a halfway house in Western

supermarket

seven months where you kind of live off

eight to ten pounds a week which pays

for your [ __ ] and I worked in old

people's home

and I came back to London

a very different person and then in that

following year

another one and died and then by the end

of two years they'd all died

so

I think I always had

this feeling

whatever I might do

you know I might do many things again

but I will not take drugs again and you

do that in recovery you do it a day at a

time and since that day I have never

taken a drug again and

that was that that's probably that

biggest shift I had at that age to

really think now I have the second

chance

what do I actually want to do with my

life

you know what not what I feel other

people expect me to do

if I was a flower on the wall in your

life at at your when the addiction had

you the most what would I have seen

you wouldn't have seen anything that I

was feeling inside

because that's what I was very good at

so outwardly

you would kind of think you know I

worked in the city I was trading

Commodities I was I held down a job you

know you would see this person who

seemed to be running around doing a lot

of stuff you would see that

yeah so mine wasn't

jacking up in the streets not being able

to function on a daily basis

um

but it was one where

appearances were so important compared

to you know so that matching your

Insight to your outside is probably my

biggest Journey you know of how can I

what I feel inside is how I share with

you now and you know I am 59 and that's

where I've got to I have a lot more to

do but I it took me a journey to get to

a place where I feel

very comfortable in that feeling and in

that belief

matching the inside with the outside so

the outside I would have seen someone

who was very busy and apparently you

know professionally successful in the

city not feeling it but sort of acting

it you know that I mean oh my God we

know that one and then make the CV acted

you know be kind of big up the job that

was actually smaller than it was all of

that [ __ ] and then on the inside

feeling

feeling

you know I hate to say the word because

I hate I hate labels imposter syndrome

is the worst can I just say it's the

worst label it's the worst label ever

because it what it denotes is that you

are an imposter

um for how it's used for now so to me

imposter syndrome is more that you

haven't yet learned enough and if you

learn something you won't feel so much

of an imposter this

is what imposter syndrome is

what I'm referring to it's that feeling

where

you are so different on the inside from

what you project on the outside that you

are an imposter inside your own body

and that to me is what I think imposter

syndrome is what's the what's the cost

of that

that at some stage

you can't keep doing it and you have

something has to give

and something always has to give and and

it's whether it's which path you're

going to take you know

because there'll be a lot of people

listening now that are in a job or a

situation where they they have that

feeling that niggling feeling that we're

in the wrong place yeah

they might be held there by social

groups or expectation from their parents

or whatever it might be but something's

holding them there yeah maybe fear of

uncertainty I would say if somebody is

listening to this and they're thinking

do I have little bits just ask yourself

you know do you love what you do it's a

job you're in if we're talking about

work do you love what you do do you like

this environment of where you work

do you feel people make a better

contribution than you you know

because that's what's making you feel

insecure if so

what do you feel when people have

meetings that you don't know

go and [ __ ] learn it Go and learn it

Go and listen to podcasts go read some

books just learn it because knowledge

is is powerful and when you have

knowledge and you walk in a room you

automatically think I have so much more

to contribute

if I answer one of those that I

challenge myself and I go I don't like

where I'm working and I don't like it

yeah and I'm you know a Commodities

Trader in the city for example and I

just I hate it yeah

leave it but have a plan but leave it

like if you hate what you do we spent 16

hours a day between commuting or if

you're in a higher position thinking

about the company working we spend much

more of a day working than sleeping

so you gotta love it you've got to love

it you know I was like in my early 20s I

was one woman 64 men on a trading four

and I hated it and I dressed in men's

clothing and I went to Rosetti and got

the men's shoes and I got the tailor to

make me a suit or the man would drop

their trousers in the on the training

floor but I'd go in the ladies room and

get you know I'd pretend to have a deep

voice I was on the phone selling

anglo-american fun so my client thought

I was a man I mean you know I did all

this stuff I haste it so much Stephen

and I would go I would take the tube to

Tower Hill we would the World Trade

Center in London

it has Financial Times on the outside

and the Daily Mail on the inside that

was my full extent of who I was

and you know I left it were you an

attention seeker more generally in life

because when I heard that you'd been

kicked out of rehab the first time for

playing a porn video yeah I thought

that that was that was a a funny one

but not funny in the end

um

it was a terrible rehab I was with

somebody

um uh

to

last night in New York

and we were going to this funeral as

this friend of mine who was like 43

years sober and um

I discovered I've been to the same place

with her and um same rehab yeah but at

different times and she just said you

know

it was the most fundamentally shaming

place ever

in rehab now are very different but it

was a very very shaming place

and

it will be closed down now it wasn't it

didn't have a good way of dealing with

things so in that whole scenario

there was definitely that feeling that

you're you're you're thrown in with

people you don't know and you reveal

your life and it was a time when

you would write down your life story and

then

in rehabs nowadays because I visit

friends in them or whatever you would

kind of people

help you navigate why you did things in

your life but in this one they did the

stuff where they would get 20 people to

critique how bad your life had been in a

room

and and judge you for it and it was I

mean just like looking back on it now at

the time that was the only way recovery

worked in rehabs in the UK but it was

just it was kind of [ __ ] appalling

and she reminded me last night so when

you bring up this thing of that of that

um

porno film and I think it was that sense

of let me just do something that people

will find funny because we're having

such a shitty time here and it backfired

and it was just you know I was tucked

out what I have been able to pinpoint is

the because at least from the outside

looking in your life was you know you

had a great job you had this um

addiction which didn't seem to interfere

with your work so you know when I sit

here with someone like Macklemore or

Russell Brand or even I remember

speaking to Stevo they talk about their

addictions and you know he was he was on

a I don't know four or five day heroin

binge and he drove a car he said he's

gonna I think he drove a car through a

house and then yeah he was threatening

to jump out the window yeah when you

know he ultimately ended up in rehab but

it didn't seem I can't identify the

symptoms that drove you to go I can't do

this anymore

I think we have

everyone has a different story

externally of I did this and I did this

and there's a bit of

I did even more than you you know

there's this whole thing in that you

know addicts maximize their using and

alcoholics minimize their drinking

all right and that's why

our colleagues can take longer to get

into sobriety and and addicts can take

shorter because also drugs can kill you

quicker

um so there are there's that kind of you

know and I think also

I don't know it's it's different but um

maybe I don't talk so much about the

crazy things I did

oh okay yeah

because I think we all do crazy things

yeah yeah and

um but I

I feel that I have a daughter who's 19.

sure and I wouldn't talk about crazy

things I did yeah okay so we move on

from there and then the next sort of 10

15 years of your life you have this

media career how aligned were you of

this chapter of your life um so when I

did TV and writing

I really love that I think what was very

nice is we developed this these women

who found us a breath pressure I love

the fact that

people would say oh you know I read your

book and it's changed how I think about

myself or you know and at the time when

we look back at What Not to Wear it's a

very divisive show at the time

it made a lot of women and women that I

meet now who watch the show at the time

tell me the impact it had on them to

think about themselves differently but I

enjoyed it I enjoyed traveling around

England and making over women and having

that journey and over you know over a

week you saw the metamorphosis of a

person you work with and you saw them at

the beginning and at the end and then we

kept in touch with many of the women and

then you would hear about their

marriages and their babies and they're

life-changing and and that you knew

there was a tiny contribution you'd made

to that switch in them turning the

switch on to feel different why did it

end at the show we'd gone from doing

series of thought I see with icba yeah

and writing a book a year to doing three

or four shows I took on average about 55

flights a year I left London on a Sunday

night I came back on a Friday I had a

seven-year-old daughter

and I had a partner who wasn't always

well

so it was just at a stage where I

thought I need to readjust how my

personal life is and I need to think

what can I do now because this doesn't

work I had a partner that wasn't always

well I remember reading a line in your

book where you said 99 of the things we

worry about don't happen but that one

percent happened to us and he said it to

me is that what he said to you yeah

he would always say it I mean I always

remind Lila what did Dada say when she's

worried about stuff

and he said he's the one that said the

99 of things we were about don't

actually happen yeah

I had a partner who was unwell unwell in

what way addiction

he was addicted to yeah

yeah and you you met him when you were

35 no no I met him when I got clean I

met him when I was 27. oh you got

married when you were 35 yeah

and he was in recovery

oh okay

so okay when you're younger you

um went through recovery he went through

recovery as well but then relapsed he

had a motorbike accident

and he was very badly hurt and he took

painkillers

and got addicted to the painkillers

what is what is what is that like

because people think of painkillers that

don't know addiction to painkillers and

they think of paracetamol or something

my only experience with painkillers is

taking a paracetamol maybe four years

ago

I think when you're in a relationship

with somebody

who has a form of addiction

there's an unpredictability and an

inconsistency

in how they turn off every day

and I think in any

times when it's not great

you end up

to an extent having the crumbs off the

table it's like you're so holding on to

those moments when everything's good

that you try and ignore

what isn't working

and at the same time I was thinking

about well you got married in the year

that you were starting your business

your tech company it's a lot to deal

with if you've got a partner at home

that you're married to that is

struggling with addiction you're

starting a business yeah but they were

well at that time okay yeah they were

well at that time they had periods

definitely through our through our

marriage where they were well

really well

the relationship breaks down

yeah you get divorced yeah

you go your Separate Ways you remain

close yeah

and then

Johnny ultimately passes away around the

time when you finish before you start

Trini London but around the time when

you finish What Not to Wear and you

separate from Susan yeah I separate from

Susanna and I started working on I'd

started working on Trinity London yeah

but I was still filming abroad I was

still doing Telly shows abroad but I was

also working on the business

and you were close to him yeah still

even though you had separated yeah

yeah we spoke every day on the phone

every day yeah

he passes away when you're 50.

yeah

how does that change things in your life

um

strangers you become a single parent

um

the thing you think will never happen

happens

so it's a wake-up call just for

life

and how you see life

it took me a long time to grieve because

he left a mess

when he died which I had to kind of deal

with it yeah Financial mess just yeah

just a mess and so

it preoccupies you to not then actually

just think about what you miss in

somebody

you know it just you focus on what

you've got to do you go on to autopilot

you think of the kind of things you've

got to deal with

and

probably oddly

I moved in March and that was the first

time I remember

Lila went away

and it was first time in

35 years I'd been on my own in-house

and I grieved for Johnny

all those years later

did something trigger that no I think

it's just you need

as long as you need space you need to

you know he died there was a mass I then

starting the business

I was living in a house I couldn't

afford to live in I had to sell it for

lots of reasons one of them

you know for that reason and

there was so much I was so many sort of

fires I was dealing with

and

and then I was you know trying to start

the business

trying to guide Lila to you know be okay

so there was a lot of years of that and

then another life change of just

deciding I want to live on my own

then brought up in a way

to be able to just

feel some things that I hadn't really

let myself feel and I think sometimes in

life

we know we're not

in that part of that strong enough to

feel that feeling and move forward and

we have to be in the right situation and

give ourselves that right breathing

space to be able to feel the fullness of

that feeling without judgment or guilt

or remorse you know because all the

other ones are so connected to

situations externally and it's very

difficult to get to a situation where

you're not bringing all the external

factors in and you're just feeling how

you feel about somebody

what was the fullness of that feeling in

that moment

I think

um

there was nothing there's nothing better

in anyone else than the bestness of

Johnny

if that makes sense

and I missed it

the circumstances of his death are

particularly complicated because he he

didn't die by natural causes he died by

Suicide

and having sat here and spoken to people

who've lost a partner or an ex in such a

way

um the feelings uh from what I've seen

are much more complicated

I think anyone dying

who dies unexpectedly

whether from illness or anything it's

somebody is gone you know that's that's

the biggest fundamental of anything the

circumstances

Drive how differently people deal with

death so you know some

members of his family wanted to believe

there was a conspiracy theory some you

know you you suddenly have

101 kind of

views on things and stuff that really

confuses and complicates the fact that

somebody has gone you know they've gone

nothing is going to bring them back they

have gone

but it leaves more questions

and then you look at

your part in something

you know and that's

every person who has had somebody commit

suicide at some stage will say

was anything I could have done stop it

you know that's the first thing

for sure

if you love somebody

um

and the more I have learned about

suicide the more that

you know that when people

when people will talk about wanting to

kill themselves

I'm not saying it happens less

frequently than people who don't but

once somebody makes a decision

that that's what they're going to do

they don't talk about it

you know

and you'd like to feel you'd pick up on

it

but

I think it's the hardest lesson to learn

but when you

then come across people where you feel

that you now pick up on

those

not saying things that

there's a lot of internalizing going on

and should you be reaching out and just

talking getting them to talk because

people get themselves to a stage where

they feel it's the only solution

and

what's staggering is

Johnny had hyper vigilance around his

children because he'd been in the

Israeli Army and he was paramedic and he

had a really it was really tough

the situation

and he he had from it post traumatic

stress disorder

which wasn't

um acknowledged you know it wasn't

diagnosed until about 20 years later but

one of the things was hyper vigilance

around his children so he had he was

always so you know worried for their

welfare

so you kind of have this thing of

where do you get to in your brain

when you are so worried about your

children

that you can convince yourself the best

thing for your children who you love

profoundly

is that you're not in their life anymore

and that

is something that

is so important that we can help people

who get to that situation that they

don't get to that final part of that

situation

and it's understanding what to recognize

is understanding you know

and it's very hard to recognize you know

I didn't recognize

and there were lots of

details of it which

could have really upset me you know of

things that

were done wrong just were just like

police stuff that was done you know lots

of things which you could hold on you

can hold on to lots of things

but you kind of have to let go when I

see people who have family who have died

and they want to hold on to things

or get this thing you know and it's like

all those things you might hold on to

will prevent you to go through the

process of grieving

because it will hold you in this place

and time and you won't just be sitting

with that you know and you won't be able

to work through and you know when

somebody dies you need to work through

these stages

and acknowledge these stages but not get

stuck in something which eats you up

so even though there were all these

things

that kind of could have eaten me up

sort of new and I had a very good

there's a wonderful one called Julia

Samuel and she wrote this too shall pass

and another book called grief works I

don't know if you've ever had her on

your podcast she's an incredible

um

grief counselor

and

I saw her straight away she came to my

house when

when I knew and I hadn't yet told Lila

the first thing is you need to find the

words of what to say

gee

um was a friend of my sister and she

gave me words it's like you just feel so

like this

I'm at a good place with it now and I

think that final thing was

this the moment I by myself when Lila

went off and

for a week and I just I thought it came

very

I'm totally you know this is eight years

later

but things take time

so interesting how the the process of

grief that those first sort of eight

years where you kind of compartmentalize

or it's not the right time to address it

yet because there's other things going

on and then eight years later how it can

show up in a moment of like Solitude and

yeah in a moment of space and come out

it's interesting because I think there's

so many of us whether it's the grief of

losing someone or the grief of some

other form of trauma that we have it

compartmentalized and it might be

um impacting our lives in ways we don't

we don't understand I hear this a lot

when I speak to people about you know

their mood or you know they're a

slightly different person through that

period but until they were able to kind

of sit down and confront it and and go

through the process of grief they they

didn't realize that they'd it changed

them in some way

eight years later you have your moment

53 years old you start

Trini yeah

big smile on your face

you know starting a business like that

at 53 a lot of people have a like a

stigma or a stereotype that you can't

start a business in midlife you know you

shouldn't be doing that at that point or

that you know you won't be able to raise

you know all of those kind of stigmas

around starting a business in midlife

crap crap yeah Turtle crap

I started a business at 16 called what's

my first business Bose unlimited when I

was at school I sold hair bows I know

um and then I started business at 53 so

it's like there's no other way to put it

that that age is is a number

it is just a [ __ ] number and you can

either mention that number endlessly or

you can look at

what energy do you have at that moment

in time to execute on your dream

that's all that's that's all you need

energy

all you need well you need a lot but you

know you need to feel that you need

energy passion Drive relentlessness

perseverance resilience

put yourself off and just get [ __ ] on

with it you need all of those things but

you need

the energy so that you jump out of bed

in the morning and you are on it

did it take time for you to cultivate

that in the process after after Johnny

passed was there like a do you know what

I mean because I did I did uh ready to

before and for that I was you know it

did 18-hour days for two and a half

years it's like it you know it's it's in

me that I've I've been a grafter for

quite a long time so you've been mulling

this idea for many many many years yeah

then

um

and then you finally put it into action

I I heard you say I started pitching in

2014 and it took me three years to

launch yeah

I started pitching in 2013 I think

and what were you pitching I was

pitching what was the elevator pitch the

elevator pitch was

um to create portable

cream based

personalized makeup

for women

35 Plus

and how was that pitch received

I did 48 pitches before one person fit I

must have sent 300 emails

what kind of uh negative feedback did

you get oh I had lots I had

um

I had you don't have enough followers

fine I had like I think 50 000 followers

then

um I had your two old starter business

I had who's going to really run the

business

come on oh that's a nice list I love

that one you live in this Neverland it's

not like it's never going to happen but

it's never going to happen but you don't

put words to either you sit like this

place and I had that feeling I thought

are people ever going to get it but I

thought I'm never going to give up so

they were both sat side by side really

starting why didn't you give up

because I knew it was a [ __ ] good

idea and I knew it would work I just had

to find the right people who would get

it but even selling you know everyone's

telling you to I don't care everyone's

telling me no I know and I know enough

and I believe in myself enough to know I

know it's a good idea I just know it I

just gotta find somebody who has the

vision to understand it how did you know

it though

because I know women

because I've made over 5 000 women in my

life because I know what women Miss I

know the frustration they feel at the

beauty counter I know that some of them

don't want to admit they don't know how

to do a smokey eye I know that some

women feel stuck but they don't know how

to articulate how do I do it again

because I don't want to seem silly in

front of my friends I know that some

women feel just

they could never do that was it

expensive to start the business yes what

were the personal sacrifices

there are phys there are Financial ones

and there are friendship ones did you

have to sell any tables let's start with

the finances no but I sold my house you

sold your house yeah I sold my house and

I'd kind of why because I couldn't

afford to stay in it

I had debt I had a big mortgage I had

kind of when I separated with Johnny I'd

wanted to get this house that I bought

that would enable me to walk my daughter

to school I just wanted this thing okay

like desperately so I bought this house

with a really big mortgage and I did

alone and I did it from scratch and it

was my dream every single little element

of this house I built did that make you

sad that realization because it seems

like the idea that I would have to leave

the house was something I thought about

every single day for six months and

thought what can I do to prevent it

because I've worked this hard for so

long to have this house I've always

wanted to own a house you know

but once you let go of it it's just a

[ __ ] house

and you think there's a bigger picture

and the bigger picture

maybe you could buy me five houses but

the bigger picture is

that there is a bigger picture not even

to look to the stage where you might be

able to buy a nicer house but it's like

I was on a mission Stephen I was on a

mission I thought I've got to make it

happen I can't not do this there was no

turning back I couldn't not start the

business so then it was what did I have

to do start the business because first

of all I sold all my clothes I did the

sale and I went on to Emily's List and I

EMILY's List is this and I was renting

out the house so I didn't care who came

my house I had like a thousand people

coming in my house buying clothes so I

raised in two sales 60 Grand because I

used to borrow I used to follow Gary

vaynerchuk and Gary was always like what

the [ __ ] can you sell in your house you

know you can sell your trainers you

won't spend a fortune on those people

who are saying oh whinging to Gary and

Gary saying sell something everyone has

something they can sell well how much do

you want the business how much do you

want to be successful and start the

business what are you prepare to give up

look at the long-term game was there any

doubt even a whisper of doubt I say this

in part because I look back on when I

started my business I was keeping diary

entries yeah um and I was I feel the

same as you there was no going back

there was definitely not plan B my

parents went there's no plan B yeah I'm

shoplifting pizzas at this point to pick

myself I'm like I can only go forward

right yeah I haven't paid my rent in

three months my rent is only 150 pounds

in rush home yeah um but then I and so I

will recount that moment of my life is I

I zoom in on the tenacity and the

certainty and this conviction yeah but

then I look at these diary entries and

on this day

I'm like doubting myself a little bit it

didn't last yeah but there was a there

was a day where it was like a rocky for

sure you know it's not all like the

thing is the overarching theme is I

can't go back yeah it shouldn't negate

the fact you're going to have doubt

you're going to question you know it's

like

doesn't think somebody will believe in

it but there was like another 10

meetings and nobody has you know you

think yeah yeah and also at the end of

an investor present you when you present

to investors

the real questioning of your integrity

over your idea

is how much you decide what was

the last meeting they had in the room

which they brought that advice to your

meeting on a totally different business

to kind of talk about the market or I

mean the amount of times I've talked

about like you know it's about growth

it's not about retention it's about 70

new customers 30 retention and I was

always saying no it's 60 retention 40

growth but saying this when Casper

mattresses was going high-fly was like

nobody wants listen I know how then why

they didn't invest because their whole

thing was growth retention [ __ ] you

know and it's like retention is

everything you've got to download grow

you've got to have new customers but if

you don't have the Bedrock of retention

the kind of classic you know like

companies that don't do any publicity

like

um Five Guys or some companies that

haven't done much publicity they're

relying on the customer loving it

they're relying on getting new customers

from their customers you know they're

relying on the most classic Word of

Mouth moment but you've got to

build a company on cement and I felt at

the time these guys looking around

they're building it on quicksand you've

got to then leave that investor meeting

and think what do I take away

that's good advice so the advice I took

away to myself was if I'm in a room of

predominantly man

I want to go in and a female trait to me

as you want to paint the entire picture

you want to bring somebody into your

universe and you want to show them

everything

so they don't have one thing they can

hone in on to make sense of your

business and join the dots you don't

give them the dot Joiner so therefore

the thing I learned was to go in and say

look

we're starting with this

and from this I'm going to give you this

and then we'll get to that

and they're like okay and it's not many

slow and women are faster it's like

there is a fundamental difference in how

people need information delivered to

them so they can absorb it go yeah that

ticks my box and then be ready to listen

to the next bit of information and that

I didn't know I didn't know into the

10th pitch and then in the 10th pitch or

whatever halfway through my pitching I

kind of thought actually what am I not

doing right here to convey because if I

believe this is a good idea if I believe

it has legs

what am I not getting through to them

that I need to and that's the vision of

the future kind of it's a bit the vision

of the future it's like there's a real

classic that if you are a woman

generally men if it's predominantly

males they will ask how do you protect

your downside and if I'm a man sitting

here they will say how do you maximize

your upside

it's a classic all right so when then so

just to explain for people that don't

understand

um downside is basically like how do you

how do you negate your risk yeah so so

you know how do you protect your risk

you know what happens if you have a

problem with the product what happens if

you can't find a customer what happens

if blah blah blah and maximizing the

upside is how you're going to scale how

you're going to make that business

bigger so

I thought I was like okay

so then when they would start to get to

that little thing I would say you know

what

these three ways like any business is

what I'll be doing now let us focus on

how I'm going to maximize the upside

and just kind of gently not insultingly

sometimes I was a little bit you know so

you became aware of their Prejudice and

would counteract it before they kind of

had a chance to use that as a way to

yeah you kind of want to bring in

conversation well but it took me a while

Stephen it took me because I had never

gone to you know when I did investor

presentations in 99

I did five and I got it you know in

those two of them invested it was a very

different time and pitching a concept

how did you counteract the prejudice

that you knew was existing in those

pitch boardrooms

or did you how did you deal with it

because there's a part of me that

thought

like I went to one and he said I love

the idea but it will only be successful

if you do it for Millennials or gen Z

because they're the only people who are

going to buy like that because women of

of your age don't know how to buy makeup

online okay and at the time 26 of people

bought Beauty Online all right and of

that 26 maybe 15 were in the demographic

that I said

but I said I'm providing personalization

that will make a woman and I will talk

to women in a way of a language they

understand to think actually maybe if I

went online I'd be better diagnosed than

if I went in store because she has this

personalization and and then when it

launched and those very first few people

who had never shopped for makeup online

did it and thought this is better than

me going to Peach Jones

it was like

spread the word spread the word and it

built on itself but at that time when

the man from this uh VC was saying that

and I was like I left the room and I

thought I actually would not want this

person to invest in my business anyway

so there is that maturity you can get of

thinking because you've got to also you

know when you're going for money you

very much feel the powers in their hands

and there's got to be something you're

bringing through and where you think do

I want these people to invest in my

business and to get to a stage where

you're the one in a way on the back foot

because you're wanting the cash how can

you then say to yourself turn it around

you know do I want

these people in the business have they

got something to contribute and asking

them questions like what will you

contribute what do you do for your other

VCS I've spoken to a few you know you

have this big thing saying that you get

the CMOS together and whatever but do

you actually do that and how does that

happen to you and

how much is this business worth in your

perspective

don't give out valuations oh I read 180

million online

it's

doing well though yeah what can you tell

me about the scale of the business to

give just to give us an inclination

we've you know grown

over 100 a year probably over five years

yeah we did

50 something Million last year

um we uh we sell 180 countries

we started skincare year and a half

goats now

38 of my Revenue

so it's growing quite quickly it has the

highest retention so when I look at the

business and I look at retention of

product

for me the value of the business

and look at what product bases there are

so that to me is an exciting place a

business is going to

um we're localizing in different

countries so there's one thing to be

sold internationally but then when you

localize it takes a lot of

um

personalization across yeah it does and

so we we did it when we're about 50 in

the UK and then we're about 23 in

Australia with 10 in America that is a

fantastic business yeah and I would like

to invest well when you think about your

character traits and what you bring to

the business what what is that and how

has that led the business to become

successful because I think in Founders

we talked earlier about focusing on the

thing you're good at yeah what is the

thing that Trinny is good at in this

business

I think I'm good at understanding how

women react to things and what they want

and how you speak to somebody so they

can hear it I think that's probably what

I know

better than anyone else in the company

how do you speak to someone so that they

hear it

well years ago I did Oprah an Oprah

taught me a lot and she was she is an

amazing woman but when I used to do her

shows

we would tell her stuff because we'd

just done a book and it'll become a

number one time bestseller in America

and it was like she helped us do that

but she would tell them stuff I'd said

and then she would repeat it three times

within that half an hour you just repeat

it repeat it and I said afterwards over

you you always repeat she said because

it registers

they get reminded

they remember

so that sense of

you say something

and you say it three times in maybe

three different ways so that by the end

of that conversation somebody walks away

with a new thought in their head so

there is that and I don't

consciously do that anymore I think at

the beginning I probably did because I

remember what she said and then it got

into a habit

but

and it's also remembering who you speak

to

because when you speak when I do

my contribution to to Trinity London of

on social

I could be speaking to many different

women I could be speaking to a nurse on

18 Grand a year who saves up every month

to buy one thing

and I could be speaking to somebody who

could buy 10 things and choose to spy us

okay so it's quite a broad remit but

they all realize

because of what I was talking about the

importance of actually buying things

that really work for your skin and not

wasting your money and and not putting

things on that are bad for your skin I

don't mean bad like green I mean like

don't do anything for your skin or just

understanding what you should use is not

what your best friend should use

and because I've I had very bad acne I

mean like when you talked about your

turning off the light okay I used to

decide what restaurant do I go into like

if I was going out and as an 18 year old

and I had this lighting I would

literally say can we go to another

restaurant because you would see my acne

postures

um coming down and I would go like I'd

literally I'd be like this for dinner so

that obsession with my skin and the

effect it gave all my confidence and put

was a lot of what I put into when we

look at what ingredients are we going to

use and how are we going to use them and

we have a lab in England you know I'm

proud the fact we have a lab we make

things from scratch we're not like hey

let's put a label on here and say Trini

London you know are you proud of the

business very

are you proud of yourself

um

yes I am when I remembered I mean I get

when I remember to be no like you've

crossed your arms look at the body

language no

I am I don't

it's very easy to well I never get to a

place conceit

um many people are proud for me

and I sometimes find that challenging

it's like I want to move the

conversation on why I don't know I don't

I can't answer it and it's just a thing

you know but I'll have good friends of

mine who've known me a long time who

will

just say you know

very lovely things about having grown

the business I I often I'm gonna happen

how do you feel and so on because we got

it together because we must go through

it I'm asking questions but I I but you

also okay so give me your feedback well

when someone gives me a big compliment

at the same time they're also reminding

me of everything I could lose and so I

think my natural way of dealing with

things is as you've kind of described is

that forward motion that void Motion

makes me feel stable yeah so whenever

someone comes to me gives me a

compliment about something I've achieved

it's it's um I always say like

Chaos's stability and stability is chaos

it's a moment of stability that I don't

like like just the idea of of

accomplishment yeah creates a stability

that I don't like I want chaos I need

that forward motion to feel stable it's

a weird one because it's like a lot of

people would disagree with what you're

saying in terms in terms of you know

sort of a self-worth guru who's saying

you've got to you've got to you know

take a step to

a lot of friends who Satan you need to

take a moment to acknowledge how far

you've come

and I think what you're saying

is I'm just trying to grasp exactly your

thing of the chaos and stability and I

think I can explain it better yeah okay

so when when Olympians go to the

Olympics they come back even if they've

won a gold medal and they fall into a

depression I think they call it gold

medal depression the stats around that

are alarming I've read one article

that's where it said up to 80 of

Olympians post

um the Olympics feel that way

um I think that humans most of us anyway

maybe that's why we're in these

buildings with these amazing technology

have it within us to need to to it goes

back to what I said before we start

recording about progress yeah we need a

sense of Forward Motion we don't the

opposite of um what we don't want is

completed goals abundant resources and

nothing to strive for so maybe because

I'm particularly I was particularly

insecure as a child I need I get my

worth from the sense of forward motion

and accomplishment the thought of

stopping yeah and being done is a form

of psychological chaos it's a form of

purposelessness and so I think stability

is actually the forward motion the chaos

uncompleted goals the striving that's

one I feel most stable okay and when you

remove that something to strive for I

feel I feel which people would call

stability I feel chaos yeah

um but also I think for me and you there

is something

um

where our work is I know it for me

anyway is inherently linked at deep deep

level to our sense of self-worth yeah

and so

um

yeah it's quite I feel deeply

uncomfortable when I get a compliment

about

um the work we do or

um when people say that to me I'll use

your pause for a second and just think

about how far you've come yeah it's

robbing me of something yeah it's like

it is um

when will enough be enough

I don't know if enough should never ever

be enough

you should always have a little bit

because you see you live in chaos so I

ask you that question when will enough

be enough when will enough I will never

be sad as far I always think about that

um well I go back to what I said as I I

hope I hope there's no such thing as

enough in my mind yeah because so when

well enough answer your question when

will enough be enough it will never be

because enough is always going to mean

forward motion

so and progress enough I know because

success to me is forward motion and

progress so success can't therefore

possibly be any destination it is

it is challenge it is autonomy it is a

meaningful goal to strive towards and

it's doing it with people I love yeah

that's success for me okay and and so I

need challenge I need forward motion

with people I love High degree of

self-control yeah it's your life breath

yeah

as I'm doing it yeah yeah it is life

breath yeah it really is

as you know Zoe are a sponsor of this

podcast and I'm a big investor in the

company you guys know I'm really sitting

still because that's just the nature of

my life so whether I'm in a business

meeting with my investments or I'm

recording this podcast I'm always

running from A to B but the one promise

that I made to myself is to fuel my body

sufficiently and Zoe has been really the

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send me a DM and let me know how you're

getting on what is success to you these

days like what is

what does success mean for you people

ask me that all the time as well but I

mean it's such a you know when you hear

that question I think oh [ __ ] so make it

specific like it's too generalistic so

what's if if I let's look look at the

next decade of your life okay if I say

if we meet again in 10 years time and I

say and you say to me that was a

successful decade all right well that's

a good way okay next 10 years success

Rebecca

um the one thing this is the only thing

where I will bring age into it right is

I am

59. so when I'm 69 do I want to be

working so hard that I sort of Miss

friends birthdays and don't get to

you know take part in life of things

outside my work because that's a big one

like when you're in your 20s and 30s you

can kind of like all your friends are

doing that too you know and in that same

space so it doesn't matter if you say

look in a month we'll get together we'll

all go for a weekend somewhere because

you're all doing it so it's like you're

on this thing together but when you're

me probably of my friends maybe 80 of

them their life is slightly different

from what I'm doing right now

so

and that element of that friendship and

this connection with people is

fundamentally crucial to our feeding

ourselves you know and there's always

that you know guy who not had American

Express but he's like you know will I be

remembered for how hard I worked you

know on the grapes and there's that

classic corny thing of like well they

remember how hard you know it's like

they won't but whenever I read that I

think but they just had a nine-to-five

job and this is a passion you know I

always say that I think this is so

different because this is

because if I

if it was just a job

I'd probably say you know I should slow

down a bit whatever but I travel the

world

I help a lot of people around the world

I meet a lot I was in Birmingham

um what about work-life balance yes but

this is the thing

it's like

I don't see my job as a job and then

there's work-life balance because

there's areas of my job which should be

sociable things so I I meet people I

have conversations women every day you

know on this you know social media thing

which is now a few few million people

I have

these women who know me really well it's

so interesting how you think oh but I

haven't seen you know I have my friends

who have known me since I've been my

teens but I have these women who are

part of the Trinity tribe they could be

anywhere in the world but

they know me so well that like I might

do a little live and they'll DM me say

Trinny sense this this morning are you

okay do you need to take a breath you

know and then when I sh I shared this

you know that John had died and

um and so you know they were you know

they sent

thousands of messages and I read I read

everything people sent because if people

make the effort to write a message and

on my Instagram I respond to everything

you know I we have a team of 11 people

who we had like 12 000 comments a week

between London stuff but I do all my

Instagram because that's the Beating

Heart of the women in my life

and

the feeling people are feeling you know

whenever you have a business you need to

understand what is the feeling people

are feeling so in England we have a big

cost of living crisis I still want to

give people quality products that are

premium so with all these things going

on how do I

sense check

this thing how do I adapt the

conversation so that

it still is relevant to their life and

they're just so going back to work like

balance like they

helped me to sit for a second and like

one of them sent this message three days

I said Trini

you have to remember

to feel what you're going through right

now because you don't usually you just

rusher it and you need to do it this

woman I've never met before ever okay

but they're just incredible women and so

my when you when you talk about a

business all right and you talk about

starting a business

my business

is this passion for these women

to feel great and and are sort of you

know you always have these what's your

vision board and what's your mission of

the company but it's literally to leave

a woman feeling better about herself

than before she came into contact with

me with Fearless with the podcast with

Trinity London with whatever so that's

my mission I am here for a mission I

know that sounds like whatever but I am

I know I am you know I know I am I know

that when like I know that during covert

when there were people feeling in a full

family of people fundamentally so alone

as women

I knew how important it was that we

should get up and we should chat to each

other I knew it was just to like really

chat really like share the [ __ ] share

the feelings so they could go

me too me too you know so it's 69 then

you're saying that you're going to slow

down and retire and have pina coladas on

the beach no I didn't say that at all

did I ever say that so 69. no so you

just said to me in the next 10 years so

the next thing what's success look like

it's that this community grows because

the more women who feel like this would

tell more women and I would like at the

moment maybe we have a million women and

I would like that to be in the next 10

years 15 million women actually so that

I'm going to put that number out there

I'm going to now remember it I'd like

that many women because if you can get

to that many women but then how are you

gonna I said that because you talked

about changing the balance a little bit

so you could be there for your social

connections a bit more yeah your friends

yeah if you've got a goal of 15 million

women so how am I growing this business

where I have people in place who can do

things that I can do better than me so

that you can go and do so I can do even

more of what only I can do yeah in the

business

because at the moment I did this thing

the other day and I

did this thing with my co and a board

member and I did like 365 days a year

all right and we divided up because we

need to like see because people it's

very difficult to get meetings in with

it so he's like okay

there are six full days a year I do

board meetings there are 12 days a year

I do investor stuff so we had a little

laugh or whatever and then add up to

more more than the days of the year okay

because I haven't taken that much

holiday so Jane says to me lovely Jane

she goes Trini this we have to change so

she said okay what do you not have to do

you know how could we move to a place

slowly where

you don't do this you do this and you do

this so much about it's like

you must talk to tons of people about

when you have your best ideas all right

we have our best ideas when we are

not further removed from the chaos

because you love this chaos but we're

we're removed enough that things have

the room to Bubble to the top so I do

Michael's car map every morning all

right and I just started doing this

other one on the the one with the half

Bowl in or something you know that

really good one and there's this guy

David G and it was discussed at

Massachusetts state hospital they did

some research that you listen to his

meditation for 59 days and it changes

your neural Pathways like ketamine might

okay it's really I'm anywhere I'm day 43

okay quite into it but

when I give myself that little space

the really good ideas for the business

come up and the more I'm just doing

running the business running the

business

the less we're going to have of those

and I need to give the business the best

of me so it's 69 do you think you're

gonna be working less

differently differently more space for

more creativity yeah and you know

traditional just saying yeah I'll take a

Friday off and go and go for a weekend

somewhere and things like that yeah

because you know do you be able to go

for a weekend without thinking about the

business yeah I did actually can I just

tell you for the first time in five

years I went away for five days

two weeks ago and I only did like eight

emails which was just

great

you wrote this wonderful book Fearless

it's really really surprising

it's surprising

did you read any of it yet yes I went

through it but you did and I read the

entire section on life the other

sections about beauty and star were a

little bit more tricky but I read

everything in the live section about

that's where I got some of those quotes

from and uh the stuff about imposter

syndrome and self-belief and all of

those things it is a a life advice book

it is a beauty advice book it is a style

advice book

um and it's just a gorgeous coffee table

style the thing is this is me okay yeah

because I

hate looking at pictures of myself so

the whole point of doing this book was

to say you hate looking at pictures of

yourself I hate [ __ ] hungry is I just

do so this is the book you'll have on

your coffee table

can you see so nice like just it will

make you pick it up more

because it's biased to have my face on

the front this is not bias

ah no that is beautiful and it's a nice

little message as well yeah to have a

statement about yourself like yeah

you know what's funny when I'm when

people come on the show and they have a

product I I often try and spend some

time

um talking about their products and

stuff but the thing the thing in this

case is

having got to understand you yeah and

what drives you and having felt how

authentic and deep your passion is

there is no need that all the products

are just a byproduct of exactly that

what we've just experienced so it's

funny because I hear you how deeply

passionate and obsessed you are about

your mission as you call it

and I just believe the product because I

know where it's coming from and that's

the most important thing it's coming

from a deep sense of mission that is so

unbelievably authentic that starts

sounds like in your childhood with a

battle with your own skin issues and

acne

um in the byproduct of that authentic

mission is these wonderful products

which are taking the World by storm what

what have I got in front of me here okay

so

every part to say I'm just giving you

I'm going to give you the quick

headlight so you can go back to your

girlfriend and and you can have

knowledge let's just close off on this

the book is available in September yes

Fab so everyone can go pre-order that

now yeah wonderful now right so highly

recommend everybody goes in pre-orders

it because it's a beautiful book thank

you very much

so fundamental skincare whatever age you

are or skin color you are or anything is

you should clean your skin properly okay

you should wear SPF okay every day

whatever your melanin levels yep cancer

being the primary cause but other

ascetics as well

um you should do something that

regenerates your skin and retinoids can

do that and exfoliants can exfoliate

your skin

and you should keep your skin even so

vitamin C okay so those kind of me are

the showstoppers in a routine well what

if I don't because I'm guilty as charged

to all of us if you don't genes might

make you think

I don't need to I'm fine but I look at

your skin and I'm going to come over now

oh no don't call me oh [ __ ]

do this look at me and I close my eyes

because I need to feel your skin without

judging you by looking at you okay so

what I do is I just have a feel and I

feel so first thing I feel immediately

is the congestion you have here right in

the center a lot of people like women

will have congestion here because they

don't like to get their hair wet when

they wash their face you have congestion

here sure it's not muscle or something

it's not muscle at all I know the

difference darling

um and this is not like that's beer you

see but this is congestion under the

skin because you have an oily skin so

you have a sebaceous gland that can

sometimes get blocked Under the Skin it

doesn't become a spot but it's congested

so that's there all right so exfoliant

you're going to use I do get a lot of

spots there okay well then you're going

to use find your balance in fact we've

got to get your final Advance then I go

around here

then I feel your lymph whenever you're

feeling

blocked doing this tiny movement here

releases your lymph nodes and you go

around the back she's massaging my face

for anyone that's listening on audio it

feels really good round your ears agree

to disagree okay and then you go down

and you want to kind of go down to your

clavicum release this is all like a

channel for all your lymph so if you

ever get a blocked face or you get dark

circles you do this kind of getting it

down like Ah that's why women always do

that thing on Instagram with the yeah

with the stone so your oilier here thank

you you've got a slight Dark Circle yeah

it's unslapped yeah and you've got

hydrated skin but block Skin So for me

the best thing you would do for your

skin is you exfoliate your skin because

you need to slosh off dead skin cells

and you need to clarify your skin you

need to get your pores get the

congestion out

so that means drinking water it means

having an exfoliant a liquid exfoliant

so that's exfoliant we sell tiptoe in

though you don't have sensitive skin so

you would use one called find your

balance which I'm going to give you okay

okay and then afterwards use a

moisturizer called niacinamide it's

called energize me it has something

called sacinic acid in it sacinic acid

is like

it's an ingredient that goes into your

cell and goes like this so when you put

that on your skin will wake up you'll

feel an alertness to your skin and then

you'll feel you get off a flight and

you'd feel I don't look tired because

you haven't looked you need to touch

your face a lot of people just don't

touch their face enough you need to get

the oxygen to your face you know you go

to the gym and the oxygen goes around

your body and your lymph system works

and you get this feeling of aliveness

but we just leave our face alone

so you do this you don't do it with me

just do it with me get yourself get your

fingers like this yeah like that so it's

like you've got a scissor and do

friction like this up down up down then

go left

and right

up down like that okay and then you want

to get your hands here yeah and you want

to lift your cheekbones like this fast

one two three

feel the energy

okay just let go now do you feel this

movement or rush in your face yeah

that's your lymph your lymph is like

your

hose pipe around your face and if you

put a sort of foot on the houseplate it

stops you need this to move around if

it's moving around it's releasing the

talks and taking them down here at the

moment it's leaving them on your skin

under your skin so it's Cleaning Out My

Face yes you want it to be moving so

there's just three things then so tell

me tell me this so if you had three

things you would use yeah three products

I would use and then sort of three

principles towards skin good skin care

okay you use

better off which is a cleansing one you

go in the shower yeah and you put this

on your face yeah it's on Aha and PHA

it's got gentle exfoliating acids okay

okay then

find your balance which is an exfoliant

which is not there what are you going to

get for you I don't know we'll get out

for you and energize me which you don't

have those three things is what you're

going to use okay your girlfriend

we're using longer routine I don't know

what she looks like on skin tone but

she'll probably have the retinols and

she'll have the vitamin C's and a few

other things but you just need three

things so that's the products and then

in terms of the personal routines you

said drink water sleep sleep and then

like massage my face yeah

got it okay

I'm looking forward to I'm looking

forward to it I I've always kind of

procrastinated on like skincare routine

I know but if it's easy if it's really

easy if it's by this thing called pick

it up yeah okay well you would just like

we'll cement it down with blue tag cool

okay okay so we have a tradition where

the last guest leaves a question for the

next guest and not knowing who they're

going to be leaving it for yeah the

question left for you is what's the one

thing that gives you the most healthy

pleasure in life and how can you commit

to

harness more of it going down a skinny

slope at 83 kilometers an hour but the

thing is I just feel a responsibility

now that I can't do that anymore why

because it's very dangerous you know

it's like a

but it is it's a guilty plan because I

love it I love the speed I love the like

I'm just in control

went through my hair

you know it's the only sport I know how

to do I'm [ __ ] every other sport

sounds like the way you live life yeah

probably in control high speed yeah win

through your arm probably because I

can't leave one somebody else now yeah

thank you thank you so much thank you

for the inspiration you truly are an

inspiration uh tremendously tremendously

so and I'm gonna make you feel

uncomfortable you should be so proud of

how far you've come

you must be so proud take some time to

just breathe it in and enjoy it training

you're gonna regret it shout out now I

appreciate you so much thank you for

being here thank you for coming and

doing this and thank you for creating a

real business that's um inspiring so

many people just through its existence

but also inspiring them to be better and

to feel better about themselves through

the wonderful products that you've made

and I highly recommend that everyone

goes and gets this book it's more of

Trinity the Trinity that I'm sure you've

loved in this conversation and these

products I mean they speak from

themselves because as I said you know

exactly where they've come from so thank

you

oh

as you may know this podcast is

sponsored by huel if you're living under

a rock you might have missed that and he

all has such a wide range of products

now but there is a great way to try all

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