I've got a quote here that's linked to

what you just said. It's from Yuval Noah

Harari, who you mentioned.

[clears throat] He says, "Humans are now

hackable animals."

>> Yes.

>> The whole idea that humans have this

soul or spirit, and they have free will,

and nobody knows what's happening inside

them, that is over.

And Sam Altman said, "The most

successful founders do not set out to

create companies. They're on a mission

to create something closer to a

religion, and at some point it turns out

that forming a company is the easiest

way to do so." And lastly, a former

Google engineer said, "What is going to

be created will effectively be a god.

It's not a god in the sense that it will

will make lightning or cause hurricanes,

but if there is something a billion

times smarter than the smartest human,

what else can you call it?"

>> Hatch on, thank you for quoting that,

because I was going to quote it to you.

The Sam Altman's point about about

making a religion. And that is what is

happening, and people pointed out the

obvious. Here you have a system, even

now, that has got some of the qualities

we normally associate with God. It

appears to be omniscient. You can ask it

any question. It is omnipresent through

the internet, etc., etc. And therefore,

already, there are worship groups to

worship AI. And some people welcome this

and say, "Well, this is the way we

should go." And other people say, "Just

wait a moment. There's something very

strange going on here. And in the end,

you are

bowing down to something that in the end

is idolatrous, because it is less than

God. But it's very tempting to do that."

>> I mean, people are basically praying to

it now. They're confiding in it in a way

that they might have.

>> absolutely doing it. And you know,

I'm fascinated by this. I've never seen

one of these before, but I like it. Let

me tell you why I like it.

>> So, for people that can't see what we're

doing, it's a brain.

>> It's a brain, and it's got two halves.

And

>> [clears throat]

>> one of the people who've influenced my

thinking about AI a lot

is uh Dr. Iain McGilchrist, the author

of this fascinating book called The

Matter with Things. And he has studied

the fact that this brain has two

hemispheres,

two halves. Both halves are involved in

almost every cognitive event, but the

two different halves have different ways

of paying attention to the world. One is

narrow focus, the left side of the

brain, and the other is the big picture.

And he says, "What has happened

historically in the West is for the last

five or so hundred years, we have

concentrated

on the narrow, rationalist, reductionist

left side of the brain,

and we've forgotten the right side that

contextualizes everything. So, that"

quote,

"We now find ourselves in a world where

we understand how almost everything

works, but we know the meaning of

nothing."

And what he calls for is to open this

sphere up, and of course that includes

to beauty, culture, art, music, and

religion. Step by step, he appears to be

creating more room for God because God

makes sense of the space he feels is

very necessary to fulfill. And I find

that absolutely fascinating. And you've

probably noticed it, too, the number of

intellectuals who are step by step

taking

the Christian faith more seriously as

giving a rational account of what's

going on that makes very big sense of

the big picture.

>> What is going on in society because it

does feel like more and more people have

these sort of existential questions

about meaning and they might be turning

to Christianity or Islam or other. But

what is from a 30,000 foot perspective

happening to us which is making us ask

some of these questions?

And if you know younger generations it

might be spirituality, however they

define that. But there's certainly a

a macro picture here of something

happening.

>> Oh, there is. I agree with you entirely

and I think it's because we've had

pushed at us for too long

a very reductionist view of the world.

It's nothing but physics and chemistry.

It's nothing but this and that.

And people rightly feel it's too small a

world to live in. They're looking to

break out of this. Isn't there a bigger

picture that

can make sense of my world and make

sense of my life and giving some

meaning? Because if you reduce

everything it ends up like a hole of

meaninglessness.

And that's one of my

uh

>> [snorts]

>> top reasons for not being an atheist

because it destroys rationality by

almost by definition. Because it tells

me that my brain

which does all the thinking is not my

mind. It's connected and those are two

different things and that's another big

story. But this

is the end product of a mindless

unguided uh process. And I have fun with

scientists, you know, sometimes. I ask

them

uh about the brain and how it arose and

they tell me something like that. And I

said, "And you trust it?

Tell me.

If the computer that you use every day,

if you knew it was the end product of a

random process, would you trust it?

Every single scientist, and some of them

are very high-powered, that I've asked

that question to have said, "No, I would

not." So I say, "You've got a problem,

haven't you? Your atheism goes too far.

It undermines

the very rationality we need

to do science, let alone to believe in

atheism.

And that's my main beef with people like

Richard Dawkins and the new atheists,

but I see they're fading. They're

fading. So, here's the irony.

Atheism claiming rationality destroys

it.

Whereas, I believe the Christian faith

also claims rationality in all in the

sense that

evidence-based. We shouted about that a

lot in science and medicine, and rightly

so. What we trust it ought to be

evidence-based. I claim exactly the same

thing for Christianity. And that's why

I'm a Christian because I believe the

evidence supports it. Otherwise, I

wouldn't.

>> So, I guess how do I identify? Maybe as

someone that's agnostic, like I'm I

don't really know.

>> Well, that's okay.

But, does that mean you're open to know?

You'd like to know?

>> Well, that's

>> I'm always open.

>> That's That's wonderful to see.

That's That seems to me to be exactly

the right attitude.

Jesus actually challenged someone in his

day and says, "If anyone

wants to do the will of God, he shall

know

of the teaching, whether I'm speaking

for myself or whether it's from God." I

notice what it doesn't say. He doesn't

say, "If anyone wants to know, he will

know."

"If anyone wants to do, he will know."

And the difference between the two, and

I'd be interested in your response to it

is that

being prepared to do something when you

know it

is more than just knowing it and

possibly just leaving it on the table.

In other words, Jesus is interested in

people who are going to take the step of

trust and following him. And that's the

big deal.

>> There should be a button just down below

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Do you know what it is? I find all I

find all explanations as to like the

bigger picture to be like fundamentally

incomplete.

>> Yes.

>> Because there's many things you said

about the nature of Christianity and

religion that I go, "Amazing. Yes. Yes.

Yes." And then there's a couple things I

go, "Ooh, well, um."

>> [clears throat]

>> Uh and the same when I sit here with a

physicist that's telling me about the

Big Bang, I have the same thing where

I'm going, "Yes. Yes, of course. Yes.

Oh, we've got evidence that the universe

is expanding. Okay, I mean." And then

they'll say other things and I go,

"Well, that's not complete."

And so I find myself sat on the fence. I

would love you to convince me. I mean,

it's not your responsibility to do so,

but where does that journey of

of believing begin for someone like me?

Because, you know, people say the Bible

and I go, "Well, it's kind of like what

you said about the computer." It's

like, if you're using something to

justify

the same thing is true,

>> Yes.

>> then that circular reasoning I find to

be incomplete cuz I could write on this

piece of paper

uh Steven Bartlett is a lizard.

>> Yes.

>> And

this piece of paper is true.

And then

you then use that same piece of paper to

justify the validity of that same piece

of paper.

>> Mhm.

>> And I go, "Well, that's that's not solid

reasoning."

>> No. But you see, I could say, "Steven

Bartlett,

there's a red Ferrari parked in the

street outside."

>> Yeah.

>> And it's yours if you want to take it.

We could sit and discuss it

for a thousand years. You would never

know whether I was true or not unless

you went and looked.

>> Mhm.

>> And it seems to me

the word skeptic is a very interesting

one. I regard myself as a skeptic, but

in Greek, skeptai means to look at

something from a distance.

Now,

if you are ever going to get to know a

person,

you've got to begin to give up your

distance. You will know that from

everyday life. And it seems to me one of

the things to try to begin to grasp is

God is not a proposition or a philosophy

or even a religion. God is a person.

And as a person, he has entered our

world. However incredible that may seem.

Although this is the irony of the Harari

position, if I might just say it on the

side, people come to me, as they've

done, with their transhumanist agendas

saying, "You know, we're going to solve

the problem of death and we're going to

increase human happiness." And I look at

them and I smile and say, "You're too

late."

And they say, "What? We haven't got

there yet." I said, "You're too late."

"What do you mean we're too late?" Well,

I said, "The problem of physical death

was solved when God raised Christ from

the dead 20 centuries ago."

And as for human happiness and uploading

us into eternity, you know, I'm waiting

for the biggest uploading that's ever

going to happen in history when Christ

returns and raises me from the dead

because that is precisely what he

promises. And it's most interesting

watching people.

And I say, "Isn't it fascinating that

your transhumanism consists

in humans reaching out to become little

gods? Whereas Christianity is the exact

opposite. It talks about a God who

became human so that he could give us

life and give us a new relationship with

him." What really completes the circle

for me

is that my

relationship with God is a relationship

which is based

on the solution to the really hard

problem.

And that is the problem that

I

by nature

have not always done good.

And by my own standards, I failed. Now,

all this talk of transhumanism, AI, and

everything else, what it's trying to do

is to build paradise, utopia, without

facing the problem of the damage that

humans have caused to themselves and one

another. They will not face the sin

problem. Christianity

to me doesn't compete with any anything

else.

Because Christ offers me something

nobody else offers me.

Nobody else offers me peace. The peace

of knowing that I have real forgiveness.

The peace of knowing that I have a

friend and a companion to whom I can

talk all the time. That's been so

meaningful in my life as I spell out in

detail my autobiography.

And the peace of having been given a new

life that will not end when I die. I'm

82 now and probably more than twice as

old as you are. As [snorts] I look

towards the future, I have in my heart a

certainty.

Not because I've merited it.

The exact opposite, because I couldn't

merit it. But because Christ has done

something for me through the cross and

the resurrection. That may sound all

mumbo jumbo at the moment.

But has done something that enables me

to have a relationship that is secure,

that floods [snorts] over the whole of

life and has made my life what it is for

the last 70 years, more or less.

>> I think everybody, especially in a world

that's getting increasingly lonely and

disconnected and isolated for many

reasons, is looking for that secure

relationship.

>> They are.

>> They're looking for their own, you know,

a home that can't fall down.

>> Yes.

Yes, and a peace that doesn't fade and a

an inheritance that doesn't Exactly.

You're dead right.

>> If I could choose that, if I could press

a button and have it, I would have it.

But, there's this other part of my brain

which

will naturally interrogate whether it's

real

>> Well, you're absolutely right.

Why am I sitting in front of you talking

about this stuff? Because I've

interrogated myself about it and it's

truth for

over 70 years.

I've made myself totally vulnerable.

That's why I got into all the debates

with new atheists and all the rest of it

because I want to be sure. But, it won't

come

about by pressing a button.

It will come about if you're open enough

to say, "God, I'm open. Reveal yourself

to me and I'm prepared to take the steps

that I feel are leading me onto solid

ground." I do not believe that this is a

process of taking a leap into the dark,

but it's making a commitment on the

basis of what you know already and

taking a step further forward. And the

interesting thing about this is

the trust that's at the heart of

everything.

I trust my wife. I've been married to

her for 58 years this year.

It's evidence-based trust. I don't trust

[laughter] her for no reason. And

[snorts]

the same is true of my friends as would

be the case with you.

Evidence-based trust in science

and in Christian things. I don't regard

myself as religious particularly, and

the reason is this, and it's an

important reason.

Most religions prescribe a moral way

that you try to follow,

and you've teachers, gurus, imams, all

the rest, priests to keep you on the

way, and then you come to a judgement at

the end. And I usually draw a scale of

justice. And if your good deeds

tip over the bad deeds, then you get

into whatever it is, heaven, nirvana,

all the rest of that. It's religion.

It's not Christianity, though many

people think it is.

Because if you ask them, "Are you a

Christian?" They'll say, "Well, I do my

best, and I hope that God will be kind."

That isn't Christianity. It's the exact

opposite of Christianity. That's a

merit-based religion.

>> [clears throat]

>> And you see,

the irony of all this is is

that we would never, at least I don't

know, some people might, but in a human

relationship,

we don't base our affection and

relationship with someone on the basis

of their merit. I have a little analogy

I use that sometimes tickles people's

minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl

on my second day at Cambridge.

I'd been warned she might be there, and

she was, sitting in church.

And

I decided that I'd like to marry her.

So,

I bought the most expensive cookery book

I could. And I came and I handed to her,

and she said, "What's that?" Well, I

said, "You know, we have a interesting

tradition in our family, you see.

And if anybody gets married, they give

the potential bride a cookbook." "Why?"

"Well, look at page 152. Here's the

the laws for making an apple cake, and I

like apple cake. So, law 1222, takes a

what? Flour, sugar, sugar." Now, I said,

"It's going to be like this.

If you keep those rules for the next,

let's be generous, 40 years or so, I

will accept you.

Otherwise, you can go back to your

mother." Now, when I say that to an

audience, they rock about with laughter,

but it's exactly the way many of them

have been taught to think about God.

Keep the rules as best as you can

and hope that God is generous. When

actually,

I did no such thing. I've given my wife

several cookbooks, but they're not the

basis of the relationship. And because

the relationship is based on acceptance

that comes at the start of the common

journey,

it sets her free to live and do other

things that she wants to do. And I have

noticed often that once people begin to

realize that they're beginning to

understand a basic concept which is

grace, that God does everything.

And if we trust him, he does that gives

us the certainty. So, it's not arrogance

to accept it from him. It's arrogance

actually to reject and say, "Oh, no, no,

I'll go my own way and I'll try my best

and hope that you will accept me." And

the heart of the Christian message,

which I believe is there,

is that the trust is based on what

someone else has done, what Christ has

done, not what I have done. And that's

what's given me the power and as I said

earlier, completed the circle and

enabled me to live.

>> That was a really beautiful description

and definition of what the Christian

faith is about.

It still leaves me with a question about

whether it's true.

And this is the sort of central question

that I need to find my way over.

>> Yeah, I agree with you.

Absolutely.

>> And this is I find myself often I've sat

with a few like Christian apologists and

asked them similar questions about like

how do I know if it's true?

And I guess so so far I've got, you

know, if there's a red Ferrari outside,

you'd have to go outside and see for

yourself. That's the only way you're

going to know.

But what

how do you know that this thing you've

committed yourself to and you've

believed and you know, talked about for

70 years of your life

is true? And could it be the case that

it's not true?

>> Okay, let's handle that. That's a hugely

important question.

I have two approaches to this, which I

call roughly speaking objective and

subjective.

And it depends entirely where someone's

coming from. They may start very far

back and say, "Look, we read about this

chap Jesus. How do we know he ever

existed?" Well, then you go to the

ancient historians and you find that

most of them, whether they're atheists

or not, believe that he existed and so

on.

>> I accept that he existed. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay, well, that's a good start. You

know, some of the disciples, when Jesus

rose from the dead, they just didn't

believe the story. Ridiculous.

And there's a famous story of Thomas

who said to the others, he said, "Unless

I see the marks in his hands and so on,

I won't believe." And then Jesus stood

among them.

And

he didn't

make fun of Thomas's objection. He said,

"Thomas, come and have a look."

You never know what swimming is until

you get into the water.

Isn't that true? [laughter]

>> It is true.

>> And

all I can say is that step by step, keep

asking your questions. Absolutely.

I don't believe that God will ever ask

us to take a step

with which we should be uncomfortable. I

just don't believe that.

>> Could you be wrong that Christianity So,

could it be the case that Christianity

was

was about a real guy called Jesus

uh based on a real guy called Jesus, but

the stories told, you know, there was

decades passed between the things that

happened and people

>> And not so much as you'd think,

actually.

>> You think what? For four decades for the

first

>> When you When you say to me, "Could you

be wrong?"

My I could then make mine says,

"Theoretically, yes.

But practically, no.

Could I be wrong? It would be like

asking me, "John, you know, you've been

married to Sally for 58 years.

>> [snorts]

>> Could you be wrong that she loves you?

Well, theoretically, yes.

But, actually,

the evidence all points in the other

direction. And that's what I would say

that I have built up in my life, and I'd

love you to ask me that question when

you've read that autobiography.

>> Why would you think it would reach a

>> Because I I think what I relate there is

enough evidence for someone outside

who's skeptical to say there may well be

something in that. But, in the end, you

won't know until you step into the

water.

And then you find that Christ is there

to catch you.

>> And what did you find in the water when

you stepped into the water?

>> Well, I was very young. You see, my

parents taught me quite clearly that I

wasn't born a Christian. You become a

Christian by trusting Christ. That's

to have somebody born or made a

Christian by some ceremony is absurd to

my mind. And so, in my simple way,

I responded as a child. I didn't have

any great feelings or anything else.

But, what happened to me as I grew, and

especially as I I went to university in

Cambridge, and I decided, look, I really

believe this stuff is true.

I'm going to stand for it.

And it was when I began to stand and

share with others that

a great deal of the underpinning came in

and the certainty came.

Cumulatively, not all a big I've never

had these big

flashes of anything, but I

have had several experiences of what I

can only put down to direct

divine guidance, and I record them in

the book.

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