Habits are solutions to the recurring

problems in our environment. Let's say

you get done with a long day of work.

You come back, you're kind of exhausted.

That happens, you know, frequently. It's

a recurring problem that you face. How

do you solve that problem? One person

might solve it by going for a run for 30

minutes. Another person might solve it

by playing video games for 30 minutes.

Another person might solve it by smoking

a cigarette. They all are trying to

solve that same core problem. What you

find is that, you know, you get to be 20

or 25 or 28. And a lot of the solutions

that you have to these recurring

problems that you face are solutions

that you inherited or that you saw

modeled by your parents or your friends

or just, you know, whatever you have

interfaced with throughout your short

life so far. As soon as you realize that

your solutions may not be the best

solution, it's now your responsibility

to try to figure out a different way to

do it. Welcome to the Huberman Lab

podcast where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is James Clear. James Clear is the

author of Atomic Habits and one of the

world's foremost experts on how to build

rocksolid habits that better your

physical and mental health, work, and

relationships. Today we discuss how to

build a habit and how to break bad

habits as fast and durably as possible.

You'll notice that today's conversation

is a very realistic one and it's largely

devoid of cliche acronyms such as make

it specific, measurable, achievable,

relevant, and time bound. There is some

of that discussion and acronyms are

useful, but as you'll learn today from

James, the real world examples of how to

make and break habits are what really

stick with you and that you can apply.

No one has spent more time on the data

related to habit formation and bad habit

breaking than James Clear. Today you

also get to know him as a person and how

he implemented what he has learned so

effectively even as the backdrop of his

life has shifted to include more not

fewer work and family responsibilities.

Now we all have things that we know we

can and should do more of and things

that we should do less of. And we all

know that behavioral change starts with

a desire to change. But as James Clear

explains, it requires a system, one that

works for you and that you design in

order for it to really stick. Thanks to

James' incredible depth of knowledge,

generosity, and clarity of

communication, today's conversation

about habit formation is filled with

useful tools that you can apply to

improve your life. So, if you have a

habit, or perhaps many habits that

you're hoping to form, or if you have

bad habits that you want to break, not

just for the new year, but at any point,

today's conversation is absolutely for

you. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with James

Clear. James Clear, welcome.

>> Hey, thank you so much for having me.

>> Your book is everywhere and now I get to

actually meet the person uh behind it.

So, I'm curious when people come to you

or when they read your book looking for

ways to develop habits or presumably

also to end bad habits.

>> Is there a common theme? For instance,

um do most people have difficulty

dropping bad habits, building new

habits? Are there specific types of

habits that people want to build? I

mean, when you just sort of step back

from everything you've heard and read

about your book and in interactions with

your audience.

>> Sure. Uh yeah, I think there are some

themes like there are definitely habits

that are very common and broad that you

know range across seems like everybody.

The most common New Year's resolution

for example is to do some form of

exercise. So there's obviously a huge

bucket of health and fitness habits that

most people many people are very

interested in. Um lots of things like

productivity habits at work or

creativity habits, writing, you know,

music, painting, whatever things like

that. So there there are these big

categories. I think what's more

interesting though is to look at what

are the themes that help habits stick

and help habits fail or cause habits to

fail. And um there are definitely some

patterns there which are interesting.

For example, I was working out the other

day and I was talking to my trainer and

he said um yeah, I have this class this

morning and uh there were eight people

signed up but it was a pretty gross day.

It was like wet and rainy. It was gray.

It was just kind of like cold and gross

and only two people came. And um the

interesting thing about that to me is

how little of an edge you need to like

gain an advantage. You know, like really

all we're talking about there is are you

cool with being uncomfortable or

inconvenienced for like 5 to 10 minutes

while you're getting ready and getting

in your car and it's raining and it's

kind of gross. Once you get to the gym,

the workout's the same as it as it's

always been, right? It's like the same

as it is in the middle of the summer. Um

and so it's really about that little

point of friction at the beginning and

that I think if I could pick a single

biggest lesson that has come out from

all the readers. It is the magic and the

importance of starting um mastering that

five minute window or sometimes even

like that 30 second window of choosing

to start and making it easy to start.

That I would say is the single biggest

theme of habits. And in fact a lot of

the time you can boil almost all

problems that habits face into two

categories. It's either making it easier

to get started, so overcoming

procrastination, or it's sticking with

it. I'm not I did it once or twice, but

I'm not consistent. But what does it

mean to stick with something? It almost

always just means that you get started

each time you try to do it. And so, you

could ultimately revert it all back to

mastering the art of getting started.

And the easier that you can make it to

get started, whether it's scaling a

habit down, optimizing the environment,

coming up with a better strategy,

looping other people in, there's all

kinds of things you can do, the more

that you can do that, the more likely

you are to succeed. Looking back on, you

know, now Atomic Habits sold 25 million

copies. I'd say that's maybe the biggest

lesson that I have is that uh the people

who make it easy to get started and who

master the art of getting started tend

to stick with it and succeed. And the

people who make it hard to get started,

big up dream up a big ambitious plan in

their head, you know, try to do too much

at once, they set themselves up to fail.

>> So in terms of getting started, I

imagine trying to create, you know, a

very thin edge of the wedge, so to

speak, you know, so that the on-ramping

to something is very very easy. And uh I

suppose that could be done by a number

of different approaches. you can um you

know segment out whatever it is the the

habit or task that you want to do like

you're going to write one word or one

sentence or one letter. There's that

approach.

>> There's also the approach of trying to

find the times of day or the

environments where the wedge becomes uh

present as opposed to being a big step,

right? Um

>> I suppose there's no oneizefits-all, but

what are some of the ways to quote

unquote get started? Because I think

there's something incredible and

somewhat depressing about the human

brain where we can know something. We

can know it so well that we can just

think about it and loop on it and loop

on it and watch ourselves fail to do the

thing that we're trying to do. It's kind

of an incredible flaw of human nature.

Yeah.

>> Um and basically what you teach is how

to overcome that flaw.

>> So a simple question, what are easy ways

to get started? Um in a way all of

atomic habits is an answer to that

question. It's like we could maybe this

will be the next two hours is us kind of

unpacking this in greater detail. But

from a real high level, there are kind

of four things that you want to do if

you want to get a habit to stick. So I

call it the four laws of behavior

change, but you want to make your habit

obvious. So this is about making it

visual or easy to see, easy to notice.

It doesn't have to be vision, but that's

often the sensory perception that you

use the most. Um, make it obvious. The

second is to make it attractive. So the

more fun or attractive or appealing a

habit is, the more likely you are to

perform it. The third thing is you want

to make it easy. So the easier, more

convenient, frictionless. This can be

about scaling your habits down and

simplifying, reducing the number of

steps. And then the fourth thing is you

want to make it satisfying. The more

satisfying or enjoyable a habit is, the

more you have this like feeling of

pleasure, reward, or positive emotion

associated with it, the more you're

going to want to repeat it in the

future. So those are the four steps.

Make it obvious, make it attractive,

make it easy, make it satisfying. There

are many ways to do each of those

things. And um my approach is not to

prescribe, but to empower, you know,

like I I don't really feel like there is

one way to build better habits. There

are many ways. And my job is to lay all

the tools out on the table and say,

"Here, here's a full toolkit." And then

you can decide, do I use the screwdriver

or do I use the wrench or do I use the

hammer? Like what's best for this

situation? Um, so to just to build on

one of those, for example, let's take

make it obvious, a lot of that's about

priming your environment to make the

action easy. You know, I think one

interesting thing you can do, walk into

most of the spaces where you spend your

time each day, your office, your living

room, your kitchen, and look around and

ask yourself, what behaviors are obvious

here? What behaviors are easy here? What

is this space designed to encourage? And

you'll often find that it's encouraging

the thing that maybe you don't want to

do or it's at least not encouraging the

good habit that you say is a priority.

And so there are all sorts of steps you

can take. You know, if you want to make

it easier to go for a run, set your

running shoes and your running clothes

out the night before. I have a couple

readers who actually sleep in their

running clothes and then just get up,

put their shoes on, and get out the

door. Right? They're trying to make it

as obvious and as frictionless as

possible. If you want to eat the good

food or the healthy food, you know,

place place the nuts on the counter

rather than the chips or something like

that, right? It's just like what is the

obvious thing that's present? I had one

guy who um he would go to his music

lesson and practice with guitar with his

instructor each week and then he would

get a bunch of homework to do these

chords and scales and things to practice

and then he would come home and put his

guitar in the guitar case and stuck it

stick it in the closet and then he'd go

back to you know uh practice the next

week and they'd be like you aren't doing

any of this. And so he bought a little

stand and put it on the uh the guitar on

the stand in the middle of the living

room and now he passes it 30 times a

day. And so he's much more likely to

pick it up and play it for 5 minutes.

And so there's just like this gradual

progression of how can you make the

things in your life that you want more

of more obvious to you. Um and that is

just one of many ways to make starting

easier.

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see the episode description. Yeah,

environment to me is so critical and so

overlooked. You know, I heard online at

one point from a a great writer, I won't

mention who they are, that, you know,

it's really important to have a very

comfortable chair to write in because

writing for long hours is hard on your

body and this kind of thing. And then

Steven Presfield, author of The War of

Art, sat in the exact chair you're

sitting in right now and he said, "Oh,

no, you want kind of an uncomfortable

chair." So, it's like kind of painful.

Now, he's a former Marine uh and it's

wrote a book called The War of Art after

all. But I sort of veer towards Steven's

approach. Like if if a room is too

comfortable, if a couch is too

comfortable, it favors, you know,

lounging and it favors

>> thinking about things that maybe are fun

to think about or, you know, but not not

really getting the work done. Not that

you need to sit on a, you know, a rock

or something like that, but some of my

best writing and work was done on planes

where I got stuck in the middle seat and

was kind of pissed off about it. Yeah.

And I could use that energy of being

kind of pissed off. I'm like, I'm going

to get this done, right? I'm not going

to do the I'm not going to lose lose by

not getting work done. Whereas, I think

had I been in first class and like

stretched out and everything perfect,

then sometimes that perfection lends

itself to just kind of leaning into the

the creature comforts of that.

>> Well, first of all, it's a good mental

shift by you, right? Like take a

suboptimal situation. How do I channel

this into something I can use? That's a

that's a great skill for life. Um,

people ask me something like this a lot.

You know, what is your writing routine?

What are your writing habits? What does

it look like? And um the truth, if I'm

being honest about it, is I've had tons

of different writing routines. I wrote

parts of Atomic Habits on my parents

couch when I was visiting them for the

holidays. I wrote parts of it in the

passenger seat of a car while we were on

a road trip. I wrote a lot of it at my

desk, you know, but there's no one place

where it happened. And um I think that

it also reveals an important truth about

habits which is that there's this kind

of implicit assumption that we don't

really say but a lot of people think

when they think what would it look like

to be successful with this habit. They

think well I would just do it for the

rest of my life is basically what they

kind of assume and if it changes or they

stop doing it then they kind of feel

like that's a failure in some way. I I

don't think it's like that at all. Um,

habits can have a season, you know, and

you you have different seasons in your

life. And I think one really interesting

question to ask is, what season am I in

right now and you will find that as your

seasons change, your habits often need

to change as well? So, for example, uh,

for the first three years that I wrote,

I wrote jamesclear.com and I published a

new article every Monday and Thursday

and they were like 2,000word pieces,

took me like about 20 hours each on

average. So, you know, that's 40-hour

work week. I'm putting in two two pieces

a week for three years. And that was how

I built my audience and got the book

deal that eventually became Atomic

Habits. Then I signed the book deal.

Well, I don't have capacity now to write

those articles. So, I had to change my

strategy. Most of my writing was going

into writing the book. I did that for

like 3 years. The book came out and then

now the last 5 years I've been writing a

newsletter once a week that takes me

about two hours instead of 20. Um, so

it's a much different form, but you

know, three million people read that

newsletter every week. They get a lot of

value out of it. And I guess my point is

if you look at my writing habit and you

say, "Well, you wrote two articles a

week for three years. What happened in

the fourth year?" If I would have felt

like, "Oh, well, I don't do that

anymore, so it's a failure." That seems

kind of silly to me. You know, like I've

been writing, it's just been changing

shape based on the season that I've been

in. And I found that with lots of other

habits, too. You know, my fitness habits

have changed a lot over the last 20

years. I had periods where I was going

heavy, like powerlifting or Olympic

lifting style, and I would train four or

five days a week. I had periods and

pockets where I was only lifting twice a

week. Um, now it's four days. It just,

you know, it shifts depending on the

season that you're in. And so, I think

people need to give themselves more

permission for their habits to adjust

rather than to feel like, well, if I

don't stick to this, then I'm not

sticking to my habit. I I feel like that

uh flexibility is a big component in

long-term success. There's this story

that mental toughness is something

that's like, I'm going to make it happen

no matter what the circumstances, right?

like I'm going to grind and make sure

that this is, you know, I'm going to

persevere. And there's a place for that

type of thinking. But um I think really

most of the time mental toughness looks

more like adaptability. Consistency is

adaptability. Don't have enough time, do

the short version. Don't have enough

energy, do the easy version. Find a way

to show up and not put up a zero for

that day because doing something is

almost always infinitely better than

doing nothing. And so eventually what

you get to here is realizing that in a

lot of ways the bad days are more

important than the good days. You know,

it's actually the bad workouts, the ones

where I don't really feel like doing

much or I don't have much time, but I

get in there and I just do like a couple

sets of squats and then I'm done in 20

minutes. That day counts for more

because I showed up and I didn't put up

a zero than the days when I got a ton of

time and do a full workout. And so

people get real excited and amped up

about their habits. They, you know, they

want to come up with this like perfect

version. what could I do? You know, if I

achieved peak performance, what would

that look like? What could I do on my

best day? But instead, I think it's

often better to ask like, what could I

stick to even on the bad days? And that

becomes your baseline. That's where you

start from. And then on the good days,

great, you got capacity, go ahead and

ramp it up. But what can you stick to

even on the bad days, I think, is a good

place to start. Yeah. I more and more

think that one of the dangers of

quoteunquote optimization which in my

view is also a a poorly understood term.

I think optimization is optimization for

the moment in the day or the hour, not

some perfect ideal. But one of the one

of the downsides to the availability of

like over-the-counter stimulants and

energy drinks and um tutorials of how to

focus, many of which I, you know, talk

about online and elsewhere, is that most

people who are in some sort of pursuit,

writing or school or otherwise,

experience the the the perfect flow,

quote unquote, or groove of being really

in the zone. and then they're always

chasing that and anything that's below

that feels like it wasn't worthwhile.

But I really like the way that you frame

that, you know, getting something in on

the days when you're less than optimal

or far less than optimal is actually

where you change yourself in a way that

makes those optimal days more available.

That's what that's what I'm hearing that

playing hurt teaches you how to play

play well under great conditions or play

even better under great conditions.

>> Consistency enlarges ability, right? And

so by being more consistent, you enlarge

your capacity to handle more. You

enlarge your ability and broaden your

skill set. You build your base of

strength to handle the harder thing

later. To be consistent means you show

up on the days when it's not perfect.

Um, in many ways, I I feel like that's

the only place that you gain an edge.

You know, the easy days, everybody works

out on the easy days. Everybody does it

when they feel good. Everybody does it

when they have time and energy and

capacity. It's who is doing it when it's

not optimal. That's the only place that

you gain separation. And so figuring out

ways to show up even when the

circumstances aren't ideal, even if it

is less than you ultimately hope to do,

ends up being a real a real win.

What you just said, I think is so so

critical that people hear that, you

know, there's a perfect state that

they're pursuing or that it takes 50

days to develop a habit or 29 days and

we could explore that. uh that that

whole thing uh has its own discussion,

but I think it's so important for people

to understand that the consistency piece

raises the ceiling. I've actually never

heard it stated that clearly. Um and

it's great that that you presented it

that way because that's something that

anyone can do, right? Anyone can write

one sentence per day. And that's not the

suggestion, but the consistency piece

really does seem to elevate the ceiling

on on performance and what's possible.

But I think people I think we've been

exposed too much to these concepts of

flow in my opinion. I don't want to

knock on Steven Cutotler and the

beautiful work that he's done in Cheeks

Mahai who originated the term. I think

Cutotler and Cheeks Mahai I think it's a

a wonderful literature um and it

certainly has its place but I think

people in their pursuit of flow um look

at the grind as failure and they don't

really know what the grind is. Is it a

hard day where you're like doing sets to

failure in the gym? is that when you're

you have quote unquote writer's block,

you've simplified it down to it's just

simply showing up over and over again.

That raises the possibility for flow,

raises the possibility for optimal

performance and probably raises the the

basement on what failure or poor

performance is as well, which means

you're getting better.

>> I had this reader, his name is Mitch. I

mentioned him in Ato atomic habits and

he um when he first started working out

he had this strange little rule for

himself where he wasn't allowed to stay

at the gym for longer than five minutes.

So he got in the car, drove to the gym,

got out, did like half an exercise and

then he get in the car, drive back and

go home. And it sounds silly, you know,

you're like clearly this is not going to

get the guy the results that he wants.

But if you take a step back, what you

realize is he was mastering the art of

showing up, right? He was becoming the

type of person that went to the gym four

days a week, even if it was only for

five minutes. And it's like the

inversion of what most people do, which

is we sit down, we try to perfect it.

You know, what's the perfect diet plan?

What's the ideal workout strategy?

What's the best sales strategy? You

know, like we want to have everything

lined up first and then we take the

first step. But I'm reminded of that.

There's that quote from Ed Latimore

where he says, "The heaviest weight at

the gym is the front door." And you

know, there are a lot of things in life

that are like that. you know, the

hardest step is the first movement. And

so, by mastering the art of showing up,

well, now he's in the gym, now he's in

the arena. There's all kinds of

improvements that you can make. And so,

he got six weeks in and he was like,

well, I'm coming here all the time. I

might as well start working out a little

bit longer. And I feel like that is such

a better place to be um than to trying

to get it perfect from the start and

then feeling like, well, if I can't run

4 days a week, why am I bothering? You

know, if I can't work out for 45

minutes, then it doesn't matter. But the

truth is, it matters every time you show

up. We use the phrase building habits,

but in a lot of ways, what we're

actually describing is just the process

of learning. Your your brain is just

learning a new behavior. And you will

get better at anything that you

practice. Anything. Now, I'm not saying

that if you practice basketball, you can

go play in the NBA in 6 months, right?

Like, or maybe ever. Um, but you

individually will be a better basketball

player 6 months from now than you are

today if you practice it each day. And

every skill that you have was once

unknown to you. You know, when you were

born, you did not know how to cut a

tomato or, you know, play a musical

instrument or even brush your teeth. But

you know all those things now and many

others. And so the way that you learn

things is by practicing them. Um, and

the way that you learn habits is also by

practicing them, even if it's small. I

think it's so important to view habits

through the lens of learning and

therefore neuroplasticity, right? which

I think is a broad term that can be

many. I mean having a stroke will induce

neuroplasticity but not the kind one

want. So I I guess the the precise

definition would be you know so I call

it self-directed adaptive plasticity.

It's not a real term but it it works for

what we're talking about. So I'll just

say plasticity um for short but sorry

not to cut you off but that is I feel

like the self-directed piece is an

important part there. You know your

brain's learning habits all the time

right? You will learn habits whether you

are in control or not whether you care

or not. I think that's a good reason to

want to know what they are and how they

work. The real question is not whether

you will gain new habits, it's whether

you can design them, right? Or be in

control of them, whether it can be

self-directed.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean maybe it's worth

exploring this a little bit because um

so for neuroscientists who learn about

plasticity, you learn about

developmental plasticity which existed

in all of us when we were kids and just

it's just p how passive experience

shapes us and uh it's very robust up

until they always say till age 25 but

about that is when the window closes for

like multi- language learning without

accents you know becomes much much more

difficult after 15 20 25 than it does

say at 40 45 or 60 some people can do it

but takes much more effort um so that's

passive learning

But the self-directed piece is

interesting because there are sort of

two forms of that. Uh one form is um

where it's explorative like you're

trying to

>> I don't know um figure out how to paint

or figure out how to uh um but you don't

really know what the painting is going

to be. Um the other is what is called

instructional plasticity. And I guess

the strict term would be self-directed

adaptive instructional plasticity. This

is why it gets to be you know kind of a

mouthful but

>> sounds sticky.

>> Yeah. But the instructional piece means

there's a correct answer. there's a

correct answer and and neuroscientists

are familiar with the fact that you know

there's these certain forms of learning

where where there's a correct answer

that the nervous system needs to learn

like how to shoot a free throw from a

particular location on a court for

instance um how to state a word uh with

a proper annunciation a different

language for instance and so there's a

right and there's a wrong and the

example of this guy Mitch

>> who went to the gym um and then left

after five minutes um I feel like

there's a merge there where he through

some unconscious genius

realized that the right answer was

getting in the door and had to teach

himself that piece as opposed to the

entire workout. So that's just chunking,

right? But it requires that that there's

a a prerequisite to getting in the gym

and that's just going there in the first

place. And if we and if we're trying to

learn how to do an entire workout, it's

too much. or if we're trying to learn

how to perform really well. It's you're

we're really trying to learn 50 or a

thousand things, right?

>> So this business of chunking, it's so

simple on the face of it, but I feel

like instructional plasticity says we

need to learn the right answers and then

stack those.

>> And so I don't think he was crazy. I

think he was really on to something and

really in tune with what the

neuroscience says.

>> People often think they're keeping it

simple or making it simple, but they

don't realize how many steps are

involved. Like let's take just getting

to the gym. Forget about the workout,

but just getting there. Which gym will

you go to? What time are you going to

go? Are you going before work or after

work? Are you stopping by on your way or

is it on your commute? Do you need to

drive separately? Are you going to bring

a water bottle or do they have water

fountains at the gym? That alone sounds

like a silly thing, but I heard from a

reader one time who said, "I always

forget my water bottle and they don't

have water fountains there, so I don't

feel like going." That's enough friction

to prevent somebody from doing the

workout. Right? Like there's so many

little steps like that. Um, and what are

you going to wear? Do you have the are

the clothes clean or are they in the

laundry right now? Like there's so many

things that could prevent it from

happening. So just mastering getting

started forces you to cross all of those

thresholds early on and figure out how

do I get in here consistently week in

and week out and then once you got that

part licked then okay great we can move

on to what the actual workout should be.

These days I and many others hear about

and talk about this idea that the effort

becomes the reward. I mean that's sort

of the the holy grail of all this right

and um I think that can happen. I mean,

it has sort of masochistic uh tones to

it. Years ago, I was a dating woman.

We're still good friends. And I I

remember one time she just said to me,

she said, "Flow, don't fight." And I was

like, "What are you talking about?" And

she said, "Everything that you do is

you're sort of like pushing yourself

into doing it even though you really

enjoy these activities." We're talking

about workrelated activities. And um I

was like, "Oh, so you just like flow

into everything that you do." And she's

like, "Yeah."

>> She was from Eastern Canada. And I was

like, "Is is everyone up there like

that?" And she's like, "No, actually,

you know, my my dad or someone in her

family was like a fisherman. Had to get

up early in the morning, go out in the

cold." So, she was a hearty person, a

very hearty person, a hard worker. Just

recently finished graduate degree, in

fact. And I was like, this flow don't

fight thing is interesting because I

feel like across my day, I do wake up

and I'm like, "All right, have to do

this. Need to," and these are

opportunities that I love.

>> Sure. And I've thought to myself, do we

only have so much, you know, time on the

gas pedal? You know, may maybe she's

right. Maybe maybe we need to flow

through certain parts of our days where

we're just kind of on inautomatic so

that we can fight harder against the

things that that are really barriers for

us. I been wanting since I woke up this

morning, I'm like, I I got to ask James

this question. Do you think there's a

way that we can kind of toggle flow and

fight?

>> That's an interesting question. I So, I

have two thoughts. First thought is um

for a long time I wrestled with this

question of do I have to be dissatisfied

to be driven?

Is is that part of it? Is that is part

of it that I have this vision for where

I want to be or what I want to

accomplish and then I look at my current

state and I realize there's a gap

between where I am and where I want to

be and that dissatisfaction with that

gap is what drives you forward. It's the

it's the drive to close the gap that

gets you to show up and work hard or

take the test or do the thing, you know.

Um, and I think certainly there are many

times in my life when that has been the

driving force.

But the healthiest response I think that

I've come up with or the the

counterpoint is you imagine that like an

acorn falls from a tree and you know it

manages to take root and starts to grow

and you know at first it's just this

little acorn and then it's a sapling and

then it's you know grows into this

eventually this large mature oak and um

at no point in that process did was it

like berating itself for only being an

acorn or for only being a sapling,

right? for not being enough yet, for not

being big enough, for not having

achieved that outcome. Um, nobody looks

at it and thinks, "Oh, what a failure.

You aren't a full oak tree yet." Um, and

yet despite that, there isn't this

dissatisfaction going on. It continues

to grow. And I think the answer there is

it grows simply because that is what an

oak tree does. It grows because that is

what is it is encoded to do. And so I

feel like the the healthiest version of

me like just flowing with it, you know,

or just stepping into it is what do I

feel like I'm encoded to do, you know,

like it's almost like I was made for

this, you know, this is my strength.

This is what I like it lights me up. It

makes me feel alive and then I can be

quite driven um and not feel

dissatisfied in the moment. So I think

that was like kind of the first thing

that I that came to mind. The second

piece is I have had this experience

where the effort has been the reward

where the the the work is the win or you

know however people want to phrase it.

Doing the thing is the satisfaction but

rarely do I have that experience right

away. Um it has it has come with time.

So like working out is a very good

example for me. Um I've been training

for you know 15 or 20 years now and yeah

like I want all the same things

everybody else does right. I want to be

healthy. You want to look good. you you

know you have all these like outcomes

that you want from working out. But the

last couple years I have started to

train more and more just because of how

I feel when I work out. I like how it

makes me feel. And now I don't have to

wait I don't have to wait two years to

see how I look in the mirror. Like I

feel good when I'm doing this set. Um

and so it becomes more about the

experience and I liking how I feel when

I'm doing it. In my language in the

atomic habits language it's what I call

identity based habits. Um, every time

that I show up and work out, I am

casting a vote for being the type of

person who works out, for being an

athlete, for being the type of person

who doesn't miss workouts. And every

time I cast a vote for being that type

of person, I feel good about myself. I

feel like I'm showing up and being the

kind of person I want to be. I feel like

I'm reinforcing my desired identity. And

I think this is one of the it certainly

is one of the concepts from atomic

habits that has resonated with most with

people which is rather than starting

your habits and asking what do I wish to

achieve? What do I wish to you know

accomplish? You start by asking who do I

wish to become and how are my habits

reinforcing that desired identity? Am I

casting votes for being that type of

person? Every action you take is like a

vote for the type of person you wish to

become. So if you sit down and you study

for 20 minutes on Tuesday night, you are

casting a vote for being studious. If

you shoot a basketball for an hour

outside, you cast a vote for being a

basketball player. And individually,

those are small things. They don't

really mean a whole lot. You know, in in

any given moment, but collectively, if

you do it for 3 months or 6 months or a

year, you cross this invisible threshold

at some point where you say, "Yeah,

being a basketball player must be a big

part of who I am." And you start to take

pride in being that kind of person. And

if you take pride in it, if it becomes

part of your story, then you'll fight to

maintain the habit. And now all of a

sudden the situation is flipped. Now

you're trying to do it rather than

trying not to do it. You know, rather

than trying to motivate yourself to

stick to it, you're just saying this is

part of who I am. You know, like I get

up and I go for a run because I'm a

runner, not because I have a half

marathon in three months. I'm I'm doing

it because I like being this kind of

person. So I think the the question of

what are my actions reinforcing? How are

my habits feeding my desired identity is

an interesting thing to play with and I

think an important question for all of

us to ask ourselves.

>> Yeah, I confess that um friction for me

is a great motivator. You know, I I was

in essentially a scientific competition

in my posttock years also when I started

my lab and I was like this is great like

I I have something constantly to push

against

>> and I enjoyed the work.

>> What kind of friction do you mean like

having a a big lab that we were

competing with and and it was a new

area. A bunch of tools had arrived on

the scene. We were developing tools.

They were developing tools and it was

very very competitive and uh I was like

this is so great.

>> Felt like a little arms race.

>> Yeah. And it was and and they got their

piece and we got our piece and it's it

all worked out. But I think competition

can bring that out and I think it was

really healthy and um it raised the

anxiety level certainly. So in science

you can actually get scooped. You can

work very very hard for a lot of years

and someone can beat you to the punch

and

>> you have to tell the student or postto

like we are resetting and when I was the

posttock it was it was scary. So you try

and find your corner where there's a bit

more assurance that you're going to be

okay no matter what but it's not always

the case especially if you pick the

problems that are like very timely like

the tools just became available to

answer questions that people have wanted

to answer for a long time and it's just

a cluster.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I used to think gosh is this

unhealthy? Is this like really

unhealthy? waking up at 4 in the morning

going to lab and like beating them. I'm

like, "No, are you kidding me?" Like it

it was part of building my career, but I

wouldn't want to do that forever.

>> And so this the flow piece sounds really

really nice. Um and at the same time,

>> I don't know. I I I agree completely

with what you said that in the friction

you get these sort of breakthroughs of

like, oh, this this went well for five

minutes. I really enjoy this. And you

start to hold on to those those pockets.

You said you really enjoy the workout,

the set. I I feel a lot of resonance

with that. I actually like exercising.

But you're one of the few people I've

ever met that doesn't say, "Oh, I like

how I feel afterwards. I like how I feel

afterwards, but I also like how it feels

in the moment." It sounds like you do as

well.

>> Yeah. I like the act of it. I like the

practice of it.

>> Yeah. I mean, that's a gift that you had

to work for.

>> I think so. I, you know, well, to the

point that you just made, it's hard for

you to imagine always being in that flow

or always feeling that way about it. And

also, the competition can be very

healthy. I agree. I think it's both and

I almost I resist anybody who would say

that they're always in one or the other.

>> I think everybody's in both from time to

time. And um your point about the

competition between the labs, that's

instructive for building habits, too.

Sometimes it really helps if things have

stakes. I find that it's actually quite

hard for me to care if there are no

stakes. I I want there to be something

that matters. Ultimately, that's why I

decided to start sharing my ideas

online. I was working at a orthopedic

practice uh just doing like an

internship over the summer. This is many

years ago. And uh I started writing

about habits and eventually and nobody

asked me to. I was just was doing it

because I was interested in it. And I

got this word doc that was like 60 pages

long. It was just like James' thoughts

on habits. And writing in the word doc

is kind of boring. There are no stakes,

you know. So I was like, well eventually

I I need to put some of this up and just

see is it any good or not? You know, do

people like it or not? And um eventually

that led to jamesclair.com. then

eventually Atomic Habits. Um, but the

fact that there were stakes forced me to

up my game. You know, my my

undergraduate degree is in biomechanics

and I got a business degree as well. So,

I I don't have a degree in psychology,

you know, or neuroscience, which is kind

of what I think you would expect

somebody who writes about habits to

have. And so, I was kind of lamenting

that early on. And I said that to a

friend and he said, "Well, the way you

become an expert is by writing about it

every week." And so, I just really

internalized that. And so I wrote two

articles a week for the next three

years. And it turns out if you write 150

articles about habits, you learn a lot

along the way. And because it was

public, I could get criticized every

time. And I think that made the work

much better. Um, and ultimately, you

know, I was able to triangulate my way

to, you know, putting together some

decent ideas about the topic

>> and building habits and, uh, suppressing

bad habits is synonymous with your name

and vice versa. I think there are

several cases. as I can think of you uh

Derek um from More Plates More Dates um

who does online fitness and health

content. um neither of whom have formal

training in that the information they

share who are both superb like truly

superb and I know Derek a bit and I

think he also went out of his way to

make sure that he was reading things

with you know an extra attention to the

detail making sure that the

communication about it was was correct

and and acknowledging that he didn't

have formal training in that area formal

academic training forgive me because all

this stuff exercise and health as well

as habits that you can practice them too

sure right

>> I think the big question is just

competence versus credentials you know

if if the argument argument is, well,

you don't have a degree in this. Well,

that doesn't really tell me anything.

But if the argument is this sentence is

wrong, okay, well, now we have something

to talk about, you know. But if the

sentences are right and I just don't

have the degree, you know, too bad.

That's it doesn't matter, right? It's

it's about are the ideas right. That's

that uh Midwest uh sensibility pra

practicality that I think really

resonates with people because the

problem with kind of ivory tower

academic stuff that you know is

associated with high levels of

credibility is often times people feel

like it's um that people are out of

touch with the real world. And obviously

the merge of the two is is great. But I

think the scientists then come to you

and now you can read a paper and and so

I think that

>> it can be both. It doesn't need to be a

competition either. I think the point is

just are the ideas right?

>> Right. And if the ideas are right then

great and if the ideas are wrong then I

have some learning to do. So

>> and do they work in the real world? And

clearly people have benefited from

these. Yeah. I think this uh attachment

to making the effort the reward is

something that um can happen. I think

that it's a a top- down training. I'd

like your thoughts on this. You know, we

can tell ourselves um you know, this

pain is good. This is me getting better.

Like I think there there are two kind of

parallel examples in the world of

exercise where um it's very concrete and

I think it maps to the cognitive space,

but I think one of the incredible things

about resistance training is uh this

notion of the pump. I mean, not because

I enjoy it, but because it gives you a

little visual and like sensory window

into what will happen if you do things

correctly, like recover and and uh

proper nutrition, etc. Like you get you

literally get a visual and a and a

sensory window into the future,

>> have some kind of evidence that in the

moment you're doing it right.

>> Yeah. And um and in general, the what

you end up with sort of parallels that

that progress during the during the

workout. Whereas with with running, like

if I run up a steep hill with a weight

vest on, my lungs are burning. I want to

cough up a lung. Like I feel like I want

to vomit. And and we can tell ourselves

like, "This is good. This is me getting

better. It will be easier the next

time." But you don't feel faster in the

moment. You're not like, "Oh, this is

what it feels like to really be faster

than I am in this on this current day."

>> And so I think both are important.

>> So I look at those as kind of um

templates for the positive feedback I

can give myself. Like if I have a good

um stretch of writing or podcast prep

where I'm like really finding papers,

I'm like, "This is so cool. this is

great. I'll say, "Okay, this is really

good." Like, we're in the groove. That's

sort of like the the pump in the gym

thing, like it's heading someplace. But

then when things are really like running

up against a brick wall, and I'm like,

"This is so painful." I I've had to

teach myself to say, "Okay, this is this

is good. This is me getting better. This

is how the brain learns." The brain

learns by experiencing friction. It

doesn't learn by experiencing

performance, right? I mean, we don't

learn from performance. We only learn

from failure, right? That the brain

won't change unless it has to change.

So, um, I'd love your thoughts on this

as it relates to the space I think most

people think of habits and learning like

how to learn a new language or or a

musical instrument or or just changing

one's daily routine so that one is

healthier or or kinder. You know, a lot

of people just struggle with kind of

being jerks, you know, and and I think

they're trying to be kind and it's hard.

It's hard to develop the the habit of

being kind if that's not their nature.

So, how do these things map for you?

>> A lot of the time people will complain

about writing habits. For example,

writing is so hard. writing is so

difficult. It feels so, you know,

arduous in the moment. And I sometimes I

try to remind myself, yeah, it does feel

difficult and that's kind of why it

works. Imagine going into the gym and

complaining that like the weights are

heavy. You're like, well, that's like,

yes, the weights are heavy. That's why

you're getting stronger. And the writing

is hard and that's how you're getting

smarter. Or at least, let's say, that's

how you're clarifying your thoughts.

Just as the weights feeling heavy is

evidence that you are getting stronger,

the writing feeling hard is evidence

that you were thinking, that you were

forcing yourself to think and clarify.

So there is some friction, some tension

that is necessary for growth. I think

what you're referencing, telling

yourself a better story in the moment is

very helpful. You know, like this is,

yeah, it is painful, it is hard, and

this is part of what it means to grow. I

also think it's helpful to do some

things either beforehand or afterward

that can help feed that process to get

you to show up. So, for example,

beforehand, previsualization can be

really helpful. I practice this with my

kids, just trying to help them imagine

what a good day would look like. You

know, like my one son, he um he started

preschool recently. And the first day of

drop off, he didn't have a good day. He

kind of, you know, cried, fussed a

little bit, didn't really want to stay.

Second day, same sort of thing. Um so

the third day, I said, "All right, it's,

you know, it's preschool day today." And

he was like, "Uh" And I was like, "Hold

on, let's let's just, you know, we're

getting breakfast in the morning." I

said, "Um you know, you like preschool,

right? Like you you really like your

teachers." Um he was like, "Yeah." I

said, "Uh what about um you guys did

snack time yesterday? That was fun,

right?" He's like, "Yeah." I said, "Uh,

you got to play with glue sticks and the

crayons. Like, that was a cool

activity." And what do you do after, um,

school gets done? He was like, "Oh, we

go out on the playground and we play

for, you know, 30 minutes or whatever."

And that was it. I just stopped there.

But the point is that I'm trying to get

him to imagine what a good day would

look like if it unfolds, right?

Emphasize the positive parts of the

experience that are about to happen.

What are the things that you're about to

do that you enjoy or that are good for

you? And go into the day with that story

in your mind. And I think that increases

the odds that you're going to show up.

And you know, maybe we just got lucky.

Who knows? But he had a good drop off

that day.

>> Sounds like a great day.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Sounds sounds awesome. I

want to do it, too. I played baseball

for a while. I played baseball through

college.

>> And when I was younger, like 10, 12, 14,

um my dad and I would do this thing

where at the end of each season, we go

and sit down on the back deck and we

would kind of like replay the good parts

of the season. We'd talk about our best

games, the best wins, talk about, you

know, the best plays that I had had or

things that went well or whatever. We're

just trying to like emphasize the wins,

you know?

And uh so I finished each season even if

it wasn't like the best season for me. I

was never the best player on any team

that I was on, but I finished it feeling

good. And that gives you a little bit of

momentum going into the next season. And

so I I think the core question whether

you're visualizing it ahead of time or

rehearsing it afterward is what are you

emphasizing? There's this interesting

exercise I heard of one time and you

take a piece of paper or two documents

and the only rule of this game is that

you can't write down anything that's

false. So yeah, they it just has to be

true if you write it down. The first

page you're going to write down the

story of your last year, but it's the

negative version. All the bad things

that happened, the stuff that didn't go

your way, whatever. The second page,

you're going to write down the story of

your last year, but it's the positive

version. All the wins you've had, the

things that were worked out well, you

know, your best days. And you look at

those two pieces of paper, there are no

lies on either one.

>> And I think the question is, which one

are you emphasizing each day? you know

what story do you carry with you when

you go into the next experience and as

long as you are not ignoring reality you

know as as long as you're not ignoring

the truth of the situation and what you

need to manage or what you need to face

I think you always want to tell yourself

the more empowering one you know you

always want to carry that version with

you that makes you feel inspired or

empowered or positive and that I think

will increase the odds that you show up

I don't know that it'll necessarily make

you a kinder person but certainly it

puts you in a better position for things

like that to happen. So, I think there

is some mental rehearsal, let's say,

that you can do to put yourself in a

better position to not only just have a

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to get up to $400 off. I think that it's

very difficult to do what one wants to

do without imagining it first. I think

people get scared that the outcome won't

be what they hope for. Like that that

fear of failure pieces, I think is very

real. The post activity reflection, just

want to hover on that for a second. Um

about a year ago we did an episode on

how best to study and learn and this

maps of course to neuroplasticity and

the literature is very straightforward.

Um but there's this interesting um shift

in the literature in the last couple of

years which clearly shows that anything

that we reflect on later we learn faster

and we retain longer.

>> And it's because most all of learning is

anti-forgetting.

And that sounds so obvious. It's like a

giant duh whenever I say that. Well,

duh. It's just a play on words. But no,

I mean, there's all this sensory

information coming in, you know, massive

amounts and and we forget most of it.

It's either irrelevant or or it just,

you know, it just goes through for

whatever reason and doesn't stick. When

students, for instance, would read a

passage once or twice or three times or

four times and they did all the

derivations of do they take notes, do

they highlight, do they talk about with

friends, etc. There were two things that

really make things stick. And one is

self- testing just, you know, reflecting

later like, oh, did I what have I

remember? No, I got that wrong. That

that's incredible um for self-evaluation

and low stakes is is incredibly powerful

for retaining information. And the other

one was just reflecting on like what

happened, what went right, what went

wrong, which is really what you're

describing about uh about these

exercises and and your kids' day, right?

Um

>> it reminds me a little bit of uh like

the spaced repetition literature. In a

way, the reflection is like another

instance of spaced repetition. you you

come back to it later and it resurfaces

the material and that increases the odds

that you retain it.

>> Yeah. Having taught many undergraduate

and graduate courses, medical students,

I can tell you um well, graduate

students and medical students are

universally motivated because the stakes

are very high. Classes are smaller.

There's kind of more of a like community

around.

>> They've also passed a filter just to get

in, right? There's a selection bias just

to be there.

>> Undergraduates, it varies by place and

course and and and etc. and major, etc.

But uh whether or not it's their major

or not, I'm not saying different majors

are more or less motivated. But what's

interesting is that most students are

exposed to information. They might study

for the exam. Ideally, they do. And then

the next time that they are evaluated on

that material in any kind of concrete

way is on the exam. And the students

that actually test themselves or that

ask for some the best students always

ask for like a a pre-quiz quiz

>> um inevitably best performing students.

And I think this business of just being

willing to feel the pain of being wrong

when there's very low stakes, it still

sucks. None of us like to be wrong. It's

like, h, you know, and and you you

decide to put it online. Like, is any of

this wrong? We've done that. We we've

now be having had a few painful

experiences where I just said the wrong

thing in passing or made a joke that was

turned into a not joke.

>> I'm a slow learner. I need a lot of

feedback. I mean, there were jokes I

made that then like were cut and sort

like those kinds of experiences are

painful enough that you you check

everything with a fine tooth comb going

forward. You know, you just that's the

way it is. But I think most people will

do anything to avoid that kind of

scrutiny. And I think your willingness

to lean into that scrutiny and just have

that the general public kind of test you

like where am I where are these ideas

working? Where are they not working is

so powerful

>> because the the places where they don't

work, you'll never forget. the places

where they work, you'll never forget.

>> I just heard from a friend who said that

she she had kind of this like

perfectionist streak and she can look

back now on her life and see that if

there was a moment when she saw somebody

doing something and she thought, "Oh,

well, I couldn't be as good at them as

as good at that as they are or I I won't

be the best at that, then she would talk

herself out of trying at all." Um

because, you know, and it's like

anti-growth mindset,

>> right? Yeah. Well, and I and I thought

about that cuz I I don't feel that way

even though I feel like I did,

especially early on, have some like I

don't know if we call it perfectionist

tendencies, but just like this very high

desire to do it right, you know, or to

get it right. But I I don't feel like I

did that. Talk myself out of it. And I

thought, why why was that? What what was

different there? And the story that was

in my head most of the time was I can

learn this. So it wasn't it wasn't even

about a comparison, right? It wasn't

like, oh, I could do it better or worse.

That wasn't the thing. it was, "Oh, I

think I can figure that out and it'll be

interesting to figure it out." I think

if you can approach all of your habits

and maybe a lot of life with this lens

of curiosity where it's not really about

failing or succeeding, it's about

reaching, you know, it's about trying

something new and then seeing what you

can learn from it. that puts you in a

good position too because it's a little

bit less about you know competition has

its place and I I consider myself to be

a fairly competitive person but uh it's

nice when you don't make everything

about that you know about being the best

from the start because you can talk

yourself out of a lot. Oh I agree and I

mean I have continually placed myself in

venues uh you know academic and physical

where there's no way I was going to be

the best in that environment. Just no

chance. It was just the fuel of of

needing to compete in order to not with

my colleagues but with people outside my

institution like to where it's it's a

great motivator for the the extra mile

for doing that extra mile kind of thing.

I mean I guess Joo talks about this like

you know waking before the enemy where

the the stakes there right before you

became a writer the stakes were high

risk high consequence like you don't get

up earlier like more more of your people

might die. Yeah

>> that's pretty high stakes high

consequence right? Um, and so I think

that that additional friction can really

bring out people's best, I also think at

some point it can become um, painful to

the point where people around us

obviously can suffer. Joo, by the way,

maintains because I know his family,

beautiful family. In addition to doing

all that forth, he legitimately gets up

at 4:30 in the morning. I've done sauna

with him. Like I was a guy down on the

floor gasping for air. It was kind of a

joke, a story for another time, but um

he calls it the factory reset and he

wanted to put me through the factory

reset protocol and it was brutal.

>> Yeah,

>> it's just brutal. And uh you know, I

think that he lives in a land where the

friction is the reward,

>> but also that um the rewards come from

relaxation, too, which is what I wanted

to bring up because after the sauna that

night, the rest of us packed it in for

the day and he went to see a show. I was

like, "Oh, he also relaxes." I'm curious

about how the habit of striving can be

also mirrored by the habit of real true

relaxation. Not thinking about the thing

you need to do or trying to build, but

allowing that maybe plasticity take

place. Not just in sleep,

>> but are are you an active relaxer? Like

do you say now is time to just

completely chill?

>> Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at

shutting off uh once when I decide to

shut off. There was a I think it was on

Tim Ferrris's podcast at one point. He

had Josh Weightskin on there and Josh

said something about how he was doing a

he was in a martial arts competition and

um he was actually asleep on the like

bench on the side and they came over and

woke him up and they said, "Hey, we got

the time wrong for your for your event.

Like you're actually up in like 2

minutes. Um and so you like woke up out

of the sleep and they did his little

like pre um uh pre-ompetition ritual and

just like flipped the switch and was,

you know, ready to go." And um he talked

about this importance of being able to

turn it on and turn it off. And I ever

since I've heard that example from him,

I've been thinking more about this idea

of turning it on and turning it off. You

know, you you sprint and then you rest.

Um what does that look like in daily

life? And I actually think first of all,

I think it's kind of fractal. I think

that you can say you could have like a

10-year sprint where you're like really

career focused. That's the season of

your life right now. and then maybe the

next season is more family focused or

more relaxation focused or whatever. Um,

it also of course could be day or week

or you know even hour. Um, so it can

scale up and scale down. But I also

think it maybe is a better version of

what it means to be balanced. You know,

we people talk a lot about work life

balance or what balance might look like.

I think balance might actually be

turning it on and turning it off really

well. It's not um doing everything at

like 50%. you know, it's not just like

staying at some steady state. It means

that when you're sprinting, you're

actually sprinting, and when you're

resting, you're actually resting. And

the ability to oscillate between those

two states, um, in lots of ways, I think

is very helpful. There's obviously the

physical ways in which you could do it,

whether it's working out or, you know,

actually relaxing and resting. Um, I

think there are mental ways to do it,

too. I tried to practice this a couple a

couple months ago. we were hosting a

party and you know anytime you're

hosting an event there can be like this

urgency that comes right the people are

coming the guests are coming everybody's

anxiety levels ratchet up like you know

is everything ready and um the phrase

that I was playing with was can I be

outside and above this you know so can I

can I mentally can I step outside and

above the situation and almost like look

down on it and if you are outside and

above the situation really what you want

is to feel larger than the situation

that you are dealing with if you are

smaller than the situation mentally then

it is driving you right your anxieties

are responding to this larger thing that

you feel like you can't control but if

you can step outside and above it now I

can look down on what is facing me right

now and I can make a wiser decision or a

calmer decision or whatever um and so

I'm trying to find ways to kind of turn

the anxiety on and off right like turn

the stress on and off and uh so I I

think there are a number of things that

you can that you can do there but I'm

trying to get better at practicing it

myself

>> yeah I think the the word reset is not

um in our like action pallet enough uh

these days. I think um

>> because it's so easy to bring

information and work to wherever we

happen to be. And even if it's not work,

just communications. Uh I mean, I've

made it a point in recent years to put

social media on one phone, maybe even

keep it in a lock box, but I'll try and

take hikes where I'm just spending time

with the person I'm with and the phone

is back in the car. And I realize

there's a danger to that. like there

could be a fire. It is LA after all. It

could be, you know, mountain lions, this

kind of thing. But it's totally worth

it. Totally worth the the uh the

unteathering in my

>> percentage risk, too, you know.

>> Yeah. I mean, there there people around.

And I mean, it's not clear the phone

would save you from a mountain line

anyway. So, you're better off actually

probably reduce your reaction time.

>> Record your final moments.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting.

I also think that there's an element to

um if you're the type of person who has

a very uh strong work ethic and you have

worked your way out of problems

throughout life that for me for a long

time that was my solution to something.

If it wasn't working well then I'll just

work a little bit harder and I'll work

my way out of it. Um and when that has

worked for you for a while you end up

using it as a crutch and so hard work

becomes this thing that you just kind of

like slide back into. But what are the

odds mathematically speaking? What are

the odds that the thing that you're

doing today or this week is the highest

and best use of your time? It's almost

impossible that you are actually working

on the thing that is the best use of

your time. I think Sam Alman has some

quote where he said something like uh

you should have a very high bar for

working on anything other than thinking

about what to work on because choosing

the right thing to focus on is going to

get you 100 or a thousandx the results.

Maybe you can work 10% harder, but if

you want to 100x the output, you need to

direct the attention and energy to

something else. And I think that

creating space to rest, to reflect and

review allows that opportunity to arise.

I a lot of the executives I talk to or

companies that I speak at or work with,

everybody's just kind of tapped out.

They're very, you know, they they're

working quite hard and so they keep

their head down and try to knock out the

things that are on their plate. But what

they need to do is step back and relax

and think for a moment to reflect and

say, "Are we working on the right

things?" I I think that's some of the

most important time that I have carved

out in my week. I I have like roughly 30

minutes every Friday where I just do a

weekly review and there is nothing

scheduled. It's just me thinking about

the business. Um and that a lot of the

best stuff comes out of that. Um, I

think I it probably be better if it was

three hours instead of 30 minutes. But,

you know, you need to find at least some

time to sit down and think, am I

directing my precious energy and

attention in the right way? And I think

that rest and reflection and relaxation

play directly into that. If you're just

working, if you're just sprinting all

the time, you don't have the space to

see the larger picture. Yeah. I'm really

intrigued by this concept of

wordlessness, like getting your body and

brain into states of while awake. uh

wordlessness. So not a lot of

information coming in about work or

really anything. Um maybe it's the

liinal state between awake and sleep

some of these NSDR yoga nidra type

practices but it's more um you know like

hiking or running or swimming

>> um where your brain goes through a

period of chatter and you're thinking

about the other thing but then at some

point everything becomes discontinuous

>> in a way and it or listening to music.

Hiking is the one that does it for me.

What you're describing right now is like

how I get after like maybe an hour into

a hike or something.

>> Do you get good ideas either coming back

from it or on the hike or or

>> I I think the most interesting thing is

I feel good.

>> Um I feel so much better. You know, you

hear these phrases like forest bathing

or things like that. I feel so much

better after that than I do after like

the same amount of time looking at my

screen or something like that. It's like

a completely different state. Um, I I

think that it almost feels like it taps

into something deeply biological where

you're like, "Oh, we are in fact

animals, you know, like we were we were

intended to live out in the forest and

uh so yeah, it that state that you're

describing to me feels how I feel when I

hike." Yeah, it definitely taps into

something and I think it's

multivariable. I think it's, you know,

the full spectrum light from sunlight.

Turns out anytime you're near greenery,

um you know, the the leaves stay

relatively cool even on hot days. And so

they'll reflect um surprisingly because

it's not the way you would expect it

based on the physics of the color of

green leaves. But um there's a lot of

infrared light essentially being

reflected back on you. And that infrared

light is not the type that damages your

skin. It is the type that feeds your

mitochondria. It actually penetrates

your body's surface. It char it

literally charges the mitochondria. So,

there's some really interesting things

about being in nature, greenery, forest

bathing. Uh, the grounding folks get all

excited about that. Most people are

wearing shoes where they're not actually

grounding to the ground. So, that's a

little bit trickier, but standing in a

stream just feels good with bare feet,

obviously. Um, I I think it's a real

true um kind of primordial reset, just

trekking.

>> The word reset resonates with me, too.

That's that's how it feels. It feels

like I I go on a hike every Wednesday

and it feels like I get to reset

>> by yourself or with

>> usually by myself.

>> Yeah.

>> And and you're

>> sometimes I'll take a friend, but

usually

>> you're listening to something phone.

>> Nothing. Yeah. Great. You know, it's