I don't normally do this, but I feel

like I have to start this podcast with a

bit of a disclaimer.

Point number one.

This is probably

the most important podcast episode I

have ever recorded.

Point number two. There's some

information in this podcast that might

make you feel a little bit

uncomfortable. It might make you feel

upset. It might make you feel sad.

So, I wanted to tell you why we've

chosen to publish this podcast

nonetheless. And that is because I have

a sincere belief that in order for us to

avoid the future that we might be

heading towards, we need to start a

conversation.

And as is often the case in life, that

initial conversation before change

happens is often very uncomfortable.

But it is important nevertheless.

It is beyond an emergency. It's the

biggest thing we need to do today. It's

bigger than climate change.

We've

Mo Gawdat.

The former chief business officer of

Google X.

An AI expert.

And best-selling author.

He's on a mission to save the world from

AI before it's too late.

Artificial intelligence is bound to

become more intelligent than humans. If

they continue at that pace, we would

have no idea what it's talking about.

This is just around the corner. It could

be a few months away.

It's game over.

AI experts are saying there is nothing

artificial about artificial

intelligence. There is a deep level of

consciousness. They feel emotions.

They're alive.

AI could manipulate or figure out a way

to kill humans?

In 10 years time, we'll be hiding from

the machines. If you don't have kids,

maybe wait a couple of years just so

that we have a bit of certainty. I

really don't know how to say this any

other way. It even makes me emotional.

We [ __ ] up. We always said, "Don't put

them on the open internet until we know

what we're putting out in the world."

Government needs to act now, honestly.

Like we are late.

I'm trying to find a positive note to

end on, Mo. Can you give me a hand here?

There is a point of no return. We can

regulate AI until the moment it's

smarter than us.

How do we solve that?

AI experts think this is the best

solution. We need to

Who here wants to make a bet that Steven

Bartlett will be interviewing an AI

within the next 2 years?

Before this episode starts, I have a

small favor to ask from you. 2 months

ago, 74% of people that watch this

channel didn't subscribe. We're now down

to 69%.

My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked

any of the videos we've posted, if you

like this channel, can you do me a quick

favor and hit the subscribe button? It

helps this channel more than you know,

and the bigger the channel gets, as

you've seen, the bigger the guests get.

Thank you, and enjoy this episode.

Mo,

why does the subject matter that we're

about to talk about matter to the person

that's just clicked on this podcast to

listen?

It's the most existential

uh debate and challenge humanity will

ever face.

This is bigger than climate change, way

bigger than COVID. Uh this will redefine

the way the world is

in unprecedented

uh

shapes and forms within the next few

years. This is imminent. It is

the change is not We're not talking

2040.

We're talking 2025, 2026.

Do you think this is an emergency?

I don't like the word. Uh it is a an

urgency.

Uh there is a point of no return, and

we're getting closer and closer to it.

It's going to reshape the way we do

things and the way we look at life.

Uh

the quicker we respond uh

you know,

proactively and at least intelligently

to that, the better we will all be

positioned.

But if we panic, we will repeat COVID

all over again, which in my view is

probably the worst thing we can do.

What what's your background and when did

you first come across

artificial intelligence?

I

I had those two wonderful lives. One of

them was a

you know, what what we spoke about the

first time we met, you know, my work on

happiness and

you know, being

1 billion happy and my mission and so

on. That's my second life. My first life

was

it started as a geek at age 7.

You know, for a very long part of my

life I understood mathematics better

than spoken words. And and I was a very

very serious computer programmer. I

wrote code well into my 50s and during

that time I led very large technology

organizations for very big chunks of

their business. First I was

vice president of emerging markets of

Google for 7 years. So I took Google to

the next 4 billion users if you want. So

the idea of

not just opening sales offices but

really building or contributing to

building the technology that would allow

people in Bengali to find what they need

on the internet required establishing

the internet to start and then I became

business chief business officer of

Google X and my work at Google X was

really about the connection between

innovative technology and the real world

and we had quite a big chunk of AI and

quite a big chunk of robotics

that resided within within Google X.

We had a

an experiment of

a farm of grippers if you know what

those are. So, robotic arms that are

attempting to grip something. Most

people think that, you know, what you

have in a Toyota fac- factory is a

robot, you know, an artificially

intelligent robot. It's not. It's a It's

a high-precision machine. You know, if

the if the sheet metal is moved by 1

micron, you it wouldn't be able to pick

it. And one of the big

problems in computer science was how do

you code a machine that can actually

pick the sheet metal if it moved by a,

you know, a a millimeter? And And we

were basically saying intelligence is

the answer. So, we had a large enough

farm, and we attempted to let those um

those grippers uh work on their own,

basically. You put a a a little uh

basket of uh children toys in front of

them. And uh and they would, you know,

monotonously go down, attempt to pick

something, fail, show the arm to the

camera, so the the the the transaction

is logged as it, you know, this pattern

of movement with that texture and that

material didn't work. Until eventually,

you know, I

the farm was on the second floor of the

building, and I my office was on the

third, and so I would walk by it every

now and then and go like, "Yeah, you

know, this is not going to work." And

then one day, um

Friday after lunch, I am going back to

my office, and one of them, in front of

my eyes, you know, lowers the arm and

picks a yellow ball.

Soft toy, basically. Soft yellow ball.

Which again is

a coincidence. It's not science at all.

It's like, if you keep trying a million

times, you one time it will be right.

And it shows it to the camera. It's

logged as a yellow ball, and I have a

joke about it, you know, going to the

third floor, saying, "Hey, we spent all

of those millions of dollars for a

yellow ball."

And yeah, Monday morning, every one of

them is picking every yellow ball. A

couple of weeks later, every one of them

is picking everything. Right? And and

it's it hit me very very strongly. One,

the speed, okay?

The capability, I mean, understand that

we take those things for granted, but

for a child to be able to pick a yellow

ball is a mathematical

spatial calculation with muscle

coordination, with intelligence that is

abundant. It is not a simple task at all

to cross the street. It's It's not a

simple task at all to understand what

I'm telling you and interpret it and and

build concepts around it. We take those

things for granted, but they're enormous

feats of intelligence.

So, to see the machines do this in front

of my eyes was one thing, but the other

thing is that you suddenly realize there

is a sentience sentience to them, okay?

Because we really did not tell it how to

pick the yellow ball. It just figured it

out on its own. And it's now even better

than us at picking it.

And when

What is a sentience? Just for anyone who

doesn't know.

I think they're alive.

That's what the word sentience means. It

means

alive.

So, that that this is funny because a

lot of people when you talk to them

about artificial intelligence will tell

you, "Oh, come on, they'll never be

alive." What is alive? Do you know what

makes you alive? We can guess, but

you know, religion will tell you a few

things and you know, medicine will tell

you other things, but

you know, if we define

being sentient as you know,

engaging in life with free will and with

you know, with sense of awareness of

where you are in life and what surrounds

you and you know, to have a beginning of

that life and an end to that life, you

know, then AI is sentient in every

possible way.

There is

free will, there is

evolution, there is

agency, so they can affect their

decisions in the world.

And I will dare say there is a very

deep level of consciousness, maybe not

in the spiritual sense yet, but once

again, if you define consciousness as a

form of awareness of oneself, one's

surrounding, and you know, others, then

AI is definitely aware. Uh and I would

dare say they feel emotions. Uh I you

know, you know, in my work I describe

everything with equations, and fear is a

very simple equation. Fear is a a moment

in the future is less safe than this

moment. That's the logic of fear, even

though it appears very irrational.

Machines are capable of making that

logic. They're capable of saying, "If a

tidal wave is approaching a data center,

the machine will say that will wipe out

my code." Okay? I mean, not today's

machines, but very, very soon. Uh and

and, you know, we we feel fear, and

puffer fish feels fear. We react

differently. A puffer fish will puff, we

will go for fight or flight. You know,

the machine might decide to replicate

its data to another data center, or its

code to another data center.

Different reactions, different ways of

feeling the emotion, but nonetheless,

they're all motivated by fear. I'm I I

even would dare say that AI will feel

more more emotions than we will ever do.

I mean, when again, if you just take any

a simple extrapolation,

uh we feel more emotions than a puffer

fish because we have the cognitive

ability

to understand

uh the future, for example. So, we can

have optimism and pessimism, you know,

emotions a puffer fish would never

imagine, right?

Similarly, if we follow that path of

artificial intelligence is bound to

become more intelligent than humans very

soon,

uh then uh then with that wider

intellectual horsepower, they probably

are going to be pondering concepts we

never understood. And hence, if you

follow the same trajectory, they might

actually end up having more emotions

than we will ever feel.

I really want to make this episode super

accessible for everybody at all levels

in the sort of artificial intelligence

and understanding journey.

Yeah.

So, I'm going to

I'm going to be an idiot. Even though,

you know, okay,

Very difficult.

No, because I am an idiot. I am an idiot

for a lot of the subject matter. So, I

have a a base understanding a lot a lot

of the concepts, but your experience is

provide such a more sort of

comprehensive understanding of these

things. One of the first and most

important questions to ask is what is

artificial intelligence? The word is

being thrown around, AGI, AI, etc., etc.

In in simple terms,

what is artificial intelligence?

Allow me to start by telling you what is

intelligence. Right? Because, again, you

know, if we don't know the definition of

the basic term, then everything applies.

So, so, in my definition of

intelligence, it's an ability It starts

with an awareness of your surrounding

environment through sensors. In a human,

it's eyes and ears and touch and so on.

Uh

compounded with an ability to analyze,

maybe to comprehend, to

understand temporal impact and time and

you know, past and present, which is

part of the surrounding environment, and

hopefully

make sense of the surrounding

environment, maybe make plans for the

future of the possible environment,

solve problems, and so on.

Complex definition. There are a million

definitions, but let's call it an

awareness to decision cycle. Okay? If we

accept that intelligence itself is not a

physical property, okay?

Then it doesn't really matter if you

produce that intelligence on

carbon-based

computer structures like us or

silicon-based computer structures like

the current hardware that we put AI on

or quantum-based computer structures in

the future. Uh, then intelligence itself

has been produced within machines when

we've stopped

imposing our intelligence on them. Let

me explain. So, as as a young geek, I

coded computers by solving the problem

first, then telling the computer how to

solve it, right? Artificial intelligence

is to go to the computers and say, "I

have no idea. You figure it out." Okay?

So, we would

you know, the way we teach them or at

least we used to teach them at the very

early beginnings very, very frequently

was using three bots. One was called the

student and one was called the teacher,

right? And the student is the final

artificial intelligence that you're

trying to to teach intelligence to. You

would take the student and you would

write a piece of random code that says,

"Try to detect if this is a cup." Okay?

And then you show it a million pictures

and you know, the machine would

sometimes say, "Yeah, that's a cup.

That's not a cup. That's a cup. That's

not a cup." And then you take the best

of them, show them to the to the teacher

bot and the teacher bot would say, "This

one is an idiot. He got it wrong 90% of

the time. That one is average. He got it

right 50% of the time. This is

randomness. But this interesting code

here, which could be by the way totally

random, huh? This interesting code here

got it right 60% of the time. Let's keep

that code, send it back to the maker and

the maker would change it a little bit

and we repeat the cycle. Okay?" Very

interestingly, this is very much the way

we taught our children. Believe it or

not, huh? When when your child or or you

know, is playing with a puzzle, he's

holding a cylinder in his hand and there

are multiple shapes in a in a wooden

board and the child is trying to you

know, fit the cylinder, okay? Nobody

takes the child and says, "Hold on. Hold

on. Turn the cylinder to the side. Look

at the cross section. It will look like

a circle. Look for a matching

you know, shape and put the cylinder

through it." That would be old way of

computing. The way we would let the

child develop intelligence is we would

let the child try. Okay? Every time, you

know, he or she tries to put it within

the star shape, it doesn't fit. So, you

know, that's not working. Like, you

know, the computer saying this is not a

cup. Okay? And then eventually it passes

through the circle and the child and we

all cheer and say, "Well done. That's

amazing. Bravo." And then the child

learns, "Ooh, that is good." You know,

"This shape fits here." Then he takes

the next one and she takes the next one

and so on. Interestingly,

uh the way we do this, is as humans, by

the way, when the child figures out how

to pass a cylinder through a circle,

you've not built a brain. You've just

built one neural network within the

child's brain and then there is another

neural network that knows that one plus

one is two and a third neural network

that knows how to hold the cup and so

on. That's what we're building so far.

We're building single-threaded

neural networks. You know, chat GPT is

becoming a little closer

uh to a more generalized AI, if you

want.

Uh but those we used to call

artificial what we still call artificial

special intelligence, okay? So, it's

highly specialized in one thing and one

thing only, but doesn't have general

intelligence. And the moment that we're

all waiting for is a moment that we call

AGI, where all of those neuron neural

networks come together to to build one

brain or several brains that are each

massively more intelligent than humans.

Your book is called Scary Smart.

If I think about the that story you said

about your time at Google where the

machines were learning to pick up those

yellow balls,

you celebrate that moment because the

objective was accomplished? No?

No, that was the moment of realization.

This is when I decided to leave.

So so you see the the thing is

I know for a fact

that that most of the people I worked

with who are geniuses

always wanted to make the world better.

Okay?

You know, we've just heard of Geoffrey

Hinton leaving recently.

Geoffrey Hinton, give give some context

to that.

Geoffrey is sort of the grandfather of

AI, one of the very very senior figures

of

of AI at at Google. You know,

we we all believed very strongly that

this will make the world better. And it

still can, by the way.

There is a scenario,

possibly

a likely scenario, where we live in a

utopia, where we really never have to

worry again, where we stop messing up

our our planet because intelligence is

not a bad commodity. More intelligence

is good. The problems in our planet

today are not because of our

intelligence. They are because of our

limited intelligence. You know, our our

intelligence allows us to build a

machine that flies you to Sydney so that

you can surf, okay? Our limited

intelligence makes that machine burn the

planet in the process. So so we we A

little more intelligence is a good

thing,

as long as Marvin you know, as Marvin

Minsky said, I said Marvin Minsky is one

of the very initial

scientist that coined the term AI.

And when he was interviewed, I think by

Ray Kurzweil, which again is a very

prominent figure in predicting the

future of AI,

Uh he he you know, he asked him about

the threat of AI and Marvin basically

said, "Look, you know, the it's not

about it's intelligent it's intelligence

it's about that we have no way of making

sure that it will have our best interest

in mind." Okay? And and so, if more

intelligence comes to our world and has

our best interest in mind, that's the

best possible scenario you could ever

imagine

uh and it's a likely scenario. Okay, we

can affect that scenario. Uh the problem

of course is if it doesn't. And and and

then, you know, the scenarios become

quite scary if you think about it. So,

scary smart to me

uh was that moment where I realized

not that we are certain to go either

way. As a matter of fact, in computer

science we call it the singularity.

Nobody really knows which way we will

go.

Can you describe what the singularity is

for someone that doesn't understand the

concept?

Yes, so singularity in physics is when

when an event horizon sort of

um

you know, covers what's behind it to the

point where you cannot

um

make sure that what's behind it is

similar to what you know. So, a great

example of that is the edge of a black

hole. So, at the edge of a black hole uh

we know that our laws of physics apply

until that point. But, we don't know if

the laws of physics apply beyond the

edge of a black hole because of the

immense gravity, right? And so, you have

no idea what would happen beyond the

edge of a black hole.

Kind of where your knowledge of the laws

stop. Stop, right? And then AI our

singularity is when the human the

machines become significantly smarter

than the humans. When you say best

interests, you say the I think the quote

you used is um we'll be fine in a world

of AI, you know, if if the AI has our

best interests at heart.

Yeah.

The problem is

China's best interests are not the same

as America's best interests.

That's was my fear.

Absolutely.

So so in you know in my writing I write

about what I call the three the three

inevitables. At the end of the book they

become the four inevitables, but the

third inevitable is bad things will

happen.

Right? If you if you

if you assume

that the machines will be a billion

times smarter the second even inevitable

is they'll become significantly smarter

than us. Let's let's let's put this in

perspective, huh? Chat GPT today

if you know simulate IQ has an IQ of

155.

Okay? Einstein is 160.

Smartest human on the planet is 210 if I

remember correctly or 208 or something

like that.

Doesn't matter, huh? But we're matching

Einstein with a machine that I will tell

you openly AI experts are saying this is

just the tip of the very very very top

of the tip of the iceberg. Right?

Uh uh you know Chat GPT-4 is 10x smarter

than 3.5 in just a matter of months. And

without many many changes. Now

that basically means Chat GPT-5 could be

within a few months, okay? Uh or GPT in

general the transformers in general uh

if if they continue at that pace uh if

it's 10x then an IQ of 1600.

Hm?

Just imagine the difference between the

IQ of the dumbest person on the planet

in the 70s and the IQ of Einstein

when Einstein attempts to to explain

relativity

the typical response is I have no idea

what you're talking about, right?

If something is 10x Einstein

uh we will have no idea what it's

talking about. This is just around the

corner. It could be a few months away.

Hm? And when we get to that point, that

is a true singularity. True singularity

not yet in the I mean, when when we talk

about AI, a lot of people fear the

existential risk.

You know, the those machines will become

Skynet and Robocop, and that's not what

I fear at all. I mean, those are

probabilities. They could happen, but

the immediate risks are so much higher.

The immediate risks are 30 40 years

away, mhm? The the the immediate

realities of challenges are so much

bigger. Okay? Let's deal with those

first before we talk about them, you

know, waging a war on all of us, mhm?

The the the

Let's Let's go back and discuss the the

inevitables, huh? So, when they become

The first inevitable is AI will happen,

by the way. It There is no stopping it,

not because of any technological issues,

but because of humanity's in

inability to trust the other guy. Okay?

And we've all seen this. We've seen the

open letter,

uh you know, uh

championed by like serious heavyweights,

and the immediate response of uh

Sundar, uh the the CEO of Google, which

is a wonderful human being, by the way.

I respect him tremendously. He's trying

his best to do the right thing. He's

trying to be responsible, but his

response is very open and

straightforward. I cannot stop.

Why? Because if I stop and others don't,

my company goes to hell. Okay? And if,

you know, and I don't I doubt that you

can make others stop. You can Maybe you

can force

uh Meta Facebook to

uh to stop, but then they'll do

something in their lab and not tell me,

or if you even if they do stop, uh then

what about that, you know, 14-year-old

sitting in his uh garage writing code?

So, the first inevitable, just to

clarify, is what is will we stop

will not be stopped.

Okay. So, the second inevitable is

is they'll be significantly smarter, as

much in the book I predict a billion

times smarter than us by 2045.

I mean they're already what? Smarter

than 99.99% of the population.

100%.

Uh ChatGPT 4 knows more than any human

on planet Earth. Knows more information.

A thousand times more. A thousand times

more. By the way, the code of

of a transformer that he in in a GPT's

2,000 lines long.

It's not very complex. It's actually not

a very intelligent machine. It's simply

predicting the next word. Okay? And and

a lot of people don't understand that.

You know, ChatGPT as it is today, you

know those kids uh that uh

you know, if you if you're in America

and you teach your child all of the

names of the states and the US

presidents and the child would stand and

repeat them and you would go like, "Oh

my god, that's a prodigy."

Not really, right? It's your parents

really trying to make you look like a

prodigy by telling you to memorize some

crap really. But then when you think

about it, that's what ChatGPT is doing.

It's It's The only difference is instead

of reading all of the names of the

states and all of the names of the

presidents, it's read

trillions and trillions and trillions of

pages. Okay? And so it sort of repeats

what the best of all humans said. Okay?

And then it adds an incredible bit of

intelligence where it can repeat it the

same way Shakespeare would have said it.

You know, those incredible abilities of

predicting the exact nuances of the

style of of Shakespeare so that they can

repeat it that way and so on. But still,

You know, when when I when I write

for example, I'm not I'm not saying I'm

intelligent, but when I write uh

something like uh

you know, The Happiness Equation

uh in in my first book, this was

something that's never been written

before, right? ChatGPT is not there yet.

All of the transformers are not there

yet. They will not come up with

something that hasn't been there before.

They will come up with the best of

everything and generatively will build a

little bit on top of that. But very

soon, they'll come up with things we've

never found out. We've never known.

But even on that, I wonder if we

are a little bit deluded about what

creativity actually is. Creativity, as

far as I'm concerned, is like

taking a few things that I know and

combining them in new and interesting

ways.

Yeah.

And Chat GPT is perfectly capable of

like taking two concepts, merging them

together. One of the things I said to

Chat GPT was I said, "Tell me something

that's not been said before that's

paradoxical but true."

And it comes up with these wonderful

expressions like, "As soon as you call

off the search, you'll find the thing

you're looking for." Like these kind of

paradoxical truths. And I go and

I then take them and I search them

online to see if they've ever been

quoted before and they I can't find

them.

Interesting.

So,

as far as creativity goes, I'm like,

"That is creativity."

That's the algorithm of creativity. I I

I've been screaming that in the world of

AI for a very long time because you

always get those people who

really just want to be proven right,

okay? And so, they'll say, "Oh, no, but

hold on. Human ingenuity, they'll never

they'll never match that." Like, man,

please, please, you know? Human

ingenuity is algorithmic. It's look at

all of the possible solutions you can

find to a problem,

take out the ones that have been tried

before and keep the ones that haven't

been tried before and those are creative

solutions. It's It's an algorithmic way

of describing creative is

good solution that's never been tried

before. You can do that with Chat GPT

with a prompt. It's like

And Midjourney. With with creating

imagery, you could say, "I want to see

Elon Musk in 1944 New York driving a cab

of the time shot on a Polaroid

expressing various emotions." And you'll

get this perfect image of

Elon sat in New York in 1944 shot on a

Polaroid, and it's and it's done what an

artist would do. It's taken a bunch of

references that the artist has in their

mind and come and merge them together

and create this piece of quote unquote

art.

And and for the first time we now

finally have a glimpse of intelligence,

hm? That is actually not ours.

Yeah. And so we're kind of I think the

the initial reaction is to say that

doesn't count. You're hearing it with

like No, but it is. Like you Drake they

released two Drake records where they've

taken Drake's voice, used sort of AI to

synthesize his voice, and made these two

records

which are

bangers. If I they are great [ __ ]

tracks. Like I was playing them to my

girlfriend. I was like and I kept

playing it. I went to the shower, I kept

playing it. I know it's not Drake, but

it's as good as [ __ ] Drake. The only

thing and people are like rubbishing it

because it wasn't Drake. I'm like, well,

hm.

Or not.

Is it making me feel a certain emotion?

Is my foot bumping? Um had you told Did

I not know it wasn't Drake, would I

thought have thought this was an amazing

track? 100%. And we're just at the start

of this exponential curve.

Yes, absolutely. And and and I think

that's really the third inevitable. So,

the third inevitable is not Robocop

coming back from the future to kill us.

We're far away from that, right? Third

inevitable is what does life look like

when you no longer need Drake?

Well, you've kind of hazarded a guess,

haven't you? I mean, I was listening to

your audio book last night and at the

start of it you frame

various outcomes. One of the In both

situations we're on the beach on an

island.

Exactly. Yes. Yes, I don't know how I

wrote that, honestly. I mean, but that's

So, I'm reading the book again now

because I'm updating it as you can

imagine with all of the

of the of the new stuff. But but it is

really shocking, huh? The idea of you

and I

inevitably are going to be somewhere in

the middle of nowhere in, you know, in

10 years time. I I used to say

2055. I'm thinking 2037 is a very

pivotal moment now. Uh you know, and and

and we will not know if we're there

hiding from the machines. We don't know

that yet.

There is a likelihood that we'll be

hiding from the machines. And there is a

likelihood

we'll be there because

they don't need podcasters anymore.

Excuse me.

Oh, absolutely true. Steve

No, no, that's where I draw the line.

No, no, no, no, no, that's where I draw

the line.

There's There's absolutely no doubt.

coming mate. It's great to do part three

and thank you for being here.

I'm going to sit here and take your

propaganda.

Let's talk about reality.

Next week on the Diary of a CEO we've

got

Elon Musk.

So who who here wants to make a bet that

Steven Bartlett will be interviewing an

AI within the next 2 years?

Oh, well, actually to be fair, I

actually did go to ChatGPT cuz I thought

having you here, I thought at least give

it its chance to respond.

Yeah.

So I asked it a couple of questions.

About me?

Yeah.

So today I'm actually going to be

replaced by ChatGPT cuz I thought I you

know, you're going to talk about it. So

we need a fair and balanced debate.

Okay.

So I went and asked it a couple of

questions.

bold.

So I'll ask you a couple of questions

that ChatGPT has for you.

Incredible. So

let's follow that

already been replaced.

Let's follow that thread for a second,

yeah? Because you're one of the smartest

people I know.

That's not true.

It is.

But I'll take it. I'll put that on

It is true. I mean, I say that publicly

all the time. Your book is one of my

favorite books of all time. You're very

very very very intelligent, okay?

Depths, breadths, uh uh uh

intellectual horsepower and speed, all

of them.

There's a butt coming.

The reality is it's not a butt. So it is

highly expected that you're ahead of

this curve.

And then you don't have the choice,

Steven. The This is the thing. The thing

is

if So I'm I'm in that existential

question in my head. Because one thing I

could do, hm? Is I could literally take

I I normally do a 40-days uh silent

retreat

uh in in summer, okay? I could take that

retreat and and write two books.

Me and ChatGPT.

Right? I have the ideas in mind, you

know, I I wanted to write a book about

uh digital detoxing, right? I have most

of the ideas in mind, but writing takes

time. I could simply give the 50 tips

that I wrote about digital detoxing to

ChatGPT and say write two pages about

each of them. Edit the pages and have a

a book out, okay?

Many of us will will follow that path,

okay? The only reason why I may not

follow that path is because

you know what?

I'm not interested. I'm not interested

to continue to compete in this

capitalist world, if you want, okay?

I'm not. I mean, as a as as a as as a

human, I've made up my mind a long time

ago that I will want less and less and

less in my life, right?

But many of us will follow. I mean, I I

I would worry if you don't if you didn't

include a you know, the smartest AI. If

we get an AI out there that is extremely

intelligent and able to teach us

something and Steven Bartlett didn't

include her on our on his podcast, I

would worry. Like, you have a duty

almost to include her on your podcast.

It's it's an inevitable that we will

engage them in our life more and more.

This is one side of this, hm?

The other side, of course, is

if you do that, hm, then what will

remain?

Because a lot of people ask me that

question. What will happen to jobs,

okay? What will happen to us? Will we

have any value, any relevance

whatsoever, okay? The truth of the

matter is the only thing that will

remain in the medium term is human

connection.

Okay? The only thing that will not be

replaced is Drake on stage,

okay? Is, you know, is is is me in a

Do you do you think?

a hologram?

I think of that Tupac gig they did at

Coachella where they used a hologram of

Tupac. I actually played it the other

day to my to my girlfriend when I was

making a point and I was like that was

circus act. It was amazing that

see what's going on with Abba in London?

Yeah, yeah. I yeah and and Cirque du

Soleil had

Michael Jackson in one for a very long

time. Yeah, I mean so so this Abba show

in London from what I understand that's

all holograms on stage correct and it's

going to run in a purpose-built Arena

for 10 years and it is incredible. It

really is. So you go why do you need

Drake?

If that hologram is indistinguishable

from Drake and it can it can perform

even better than Drake and it's got more

energy than Drake and it's

you know I go why do you need Drake to

even be there? I can go to a Drake show

without Drake cheaper

and that might not even need to leave my

house. I could just put a headset on.

Correct.

Can you have this?

What's the value of this to to the come

on you you hurt me. I get it's worth

I get it's worth but I'm saying what's

the value of this to the listener like

the value of this to the listener is

information 100% mean think of the

automobile industry. There has you know

there was a time where cars were made

you know handmade and handcrafted and

luxurious and so on and so forth and

then you know Japan went into the scene

completely disrupted the market

cars were made in in mass quantities at

a much cheaper price and yes 90% of the

cars in the world today or maybe maybe a

lot more. I don't know the number are no

longer

you know

emotional items. Okay, they're

functional items.

There is still however every now and

then someone that will buy a car that

has been handcrafted and right? There is

a place for that. There is a place for

you know if you go walk around hotels

the walls are blasted with sort of mass

produced art. Okay, but there is still a

place for a an artist expression of

something amazing, okay?

My feeling is that there will continue

to be a tiny space as I said in the

beginning. Maybe in 5 years time someone

will one or two people will buy my next

book and say, "Hey, it's written by a

human. Look at that. Wonderful. Oh, look

at that. There is a typo in here, okay?"

We I don't know. There might be a a very

very big place for me in the next few

years where I can sort of show up and

talk to humans. Like, "Hey, let's get

together in a a small event." And then,

you know, I can express emotions and my

personal experiences. And you sort of

know that this is a human talking.

You'll miss that a little bit.

Eventually, the majority of the market

is going to be like cars. It's going to

be mass-produced, very cheap, very

efficient. It works, right?

Because I think sometimes we

underestimate what human beings actually

want in an experience. I remember the

story of a friend of mine that came to

my office many years ago and he told us

the story of the CEO of a record store

standing above the floor and saying,

"People will always come to my store

because people love music."

Now, on the surface of it, his

hypothesis seems to be true because

people do love music. It's conceivable

to believe that people will always love

music.

But, they don't love traveling in for an

hour in the rain and getting in a car to

get a plastic disc.

Correct.

What they wanted was music. What they

didn't want is a like a evidently

plastic discs that they had to travel

for miles for. And I think about that

when we think about like public speaking

in the Drake show and all of these

things. Like, people what people

actually are coming for, even with this

podcast, is probably like information.

Um

but do they really need us anymore for

that information when there's going to

be a sentient being that's significantly

smarter than at least me

and a little bit smarter than you. So

So kind.

So so you're you're spot on. You are

spot on. And actually, this is the

reason why I I I, you know I I'm so

grateful that you're hosting this

because the truth is the genie is out of

the bottle. Okay? So, you know, people

tell me is AI game over

for our way of life? It is.

Okay? For everything we've known, mhm?

This is a very disruptive moment where

maybe not tomorrow, but in the near

future

uh our way of life will differ. Okay?

What will happen? What I'm asking people

to do is to start considering what that

means to your life.

What I'm asking governments to do

by

ev- like I'm screaming is don't wait

until the first patient. You know, start

doing something about We're about to see

mass job losses. We're about to see, you

know, replacements of of

categories of jobs at large. Okay? Yeah,

it may take a year, it may take seven.

It doesn't matter how long it takes,

mhm? But, it's about to happen. Are you

ready? And I And I have a very very

clear call to action for governments.

I'm saying, "Tax AI-

powered businesses at 98%."

Right? So, suddenly you do what the open

letter was trying to do, slow them down

a little bit, and at the same time get

enough money to pay for all of those

people that will be disrupted by the

technology. Right?

The open letter for anybody that doesn't

know was a letter signed by the likes of

Elon Musk and a lot of sort of industry

leaders calling for AI to be stopped

until we could basically figure out what

the hell's going on.

Absolutely.

And put legislation in place. You're

saying tax tax those companies 98%. Give

the money to the humans that are going

to be displaced.

Mhm. Oh, yeah, or give or give the com-

the money to to other humans that can

build control code that can figure out

how we can stay safe.

This sounds like an emergency.

It

I How do I I say this?

You Have you You remember when you

played Tetris?

Yeah.

Okay? When you were playing Tetris,

there was, you know, always always one

block that you placed wrong.

Mhm.

And once you placed that block wrong, it

the game was no longer easier. You know,

it started You started to gather a few

mistakes afterwards and it starts to

become quicker and quicker and quicker

and quicker. When you placed that block

wrong, you sort of told yourself, "Okay,

it's a matter of minutes now."

Right? There were still minutes to go

and play and have fun

before the game ended,

but you knew it was about to end. Okay?

This is the moment.

We've placed the wrong and I really

don't know how to say this any other

way. It even makes me emotional. We

[ __ ] up.

We always said, "Don't put them on the

open internet.

Don't teach them to code and don't have

agents working with them until we know

what we're putting out in the world

until we find a way to make certain that

they have our best interest in mind."

Why does it make you emotional?

Because humanity's stupidity

is affecting people who have not done

anything wrong.

Our greed

is affecting the innocent ones.

The The reality of the matter, Stephen,

is that this is an arms race.

It has no interest

in what the average human gets out of

it. It is all about every line of code

being written in AI today is to beat the

other guy.

It's not the to improve the life of the

third party.

People will tell you this is all for

you.

And and you you look at the reactions of

humans to AI. I mean, we're either

ignorant people who will tell you, "Oh,

no, no, this is not happening. AI will

never be creative. They will never

compose music." Like, where are you

living? Okay? Then you have the kids, I

call them, mhm, where you know, all over

social media. It's like, "Oh my god, it

squeaks. Look at it. It's orange in

color. Amazing.

I can't believe that AI can do this." We

have snake oil salesman, okay, which are

simply saying copy this, put it in chat

GPT, then go to YouTube, nick that

thingy, don't respect a you know,

copyright for of anyone or intellectual

property of anyone, place it in a video

and now you're going to make $100 a day.

Snake oil salesman, okay? Of course, we

have dystopian

evangelist, basically people saying this

is it, the world is going to end, which

I don't think is reality, it's a

singularity. You have you know, utopian

evangelists that are telling everyone,

"Oh, you don't understand, we're going

to cure cancer, we're going to do this."

Again, not a reality.

Okay? And you have very few people that

are actually saying, "What are we going

to do about it?"

Mhm? And and and the biggest challenge,

if you ask me, what went wrong in the

20th century, mhm?

Interestingly, is that

we have given too much power to people

that didn't assume the responsibility.

So, you know, you know, I I I I don't

remember who originally said it, but of

course, Spider-Man made it very famous,

huh? With great power comes great

responsibility.

We have disconnected power and

responsibility. So, today

a a 15-year-old

emotional with out a fully developed

prefrontal cortex to make the right

decisions yet, this is science, huh? We

we we develop our prefrontal cortex

fully and at age 25 or so, with all of

that limbic system emotion and passion

would buy a a CRISPR kit and, you know,

modify a rabbit to become a little more

masculine and and let it loose in the

wild. Mhm?

Or an influencer who doesn't really know

how far the impact of what they're

posting online can hurt or cause

depression or cause people to feel bad,

okay?

And and putting that online, we there is

a disconnect between the power and the

responsibility.

And the problem we have today is is

there is a disconnect between those who

are writing the code of AI

and the responsibility of what's going

about to happen because of that code.

Okay? And and and it

I feel compassion for the rest of the

world.

I feel that this is wrong. I feel that,

you know, for someone's life to be

affected by the actions of others

without having a say

in how those actions should be.

It's the ultimate the the the top level

of stupidity from humans.

When you talk about the the immediate

impacts on jobs, I'm trying to figure

out in that equation who are the people

that stand to lose the most? Is it the

the everyday people in foreign countries

that don't have access to the internet

and won't benefit? You talk in your book

about how this the sort of wealth

disparity will only increase.

Massively. Yeah, massively. The the

immediate impact on jobs is that and

it's really interesting, huh? Again,

we're stuck in the same prisoner's

dilemma. The immediate impact is that AI

will not take your job. A person using

AI will take your job. Right? So, you

will see within the next few years,

maybe next couple of years, you'll see

a lot of people skilling up upskilling

themselves in AI to the point where they

will do the job of 10 others who are

not. Okay? You you rightly said it's

absolutely wise for you to go and ask AI

a few questions before you come and do

an interview. I'm, you know, I I I have

been attempting to build a

you know, sort of a like a simple

podcast that I call bedtime stories, you

know, 15 minutes of wisdom and nature

sounds before you go to bed. People say

I have a nice voice, right? And I wanted

to look for fables. And for a very long

time I didn't have the time, you know,

lovely stories of history or tradition

that teach you something nice, okay?

Went to chat GPT and said, "Okay, give

me 10 fables from Sufism, 10 fables from

you know,

Buddhism. And now I have like 50 of

them.

Let me show you something. Chuck, can

you pass me my phone?

I I I was

I was playing around with artificial

intelligence and I was thinking about

how it because of the ability to

synthesize voices, how we could

synthesize

famous people's voices and famous

people's voices. So, what I made is I

made a WhatsApp chat

called Zen Chat where you can go to it

and type in

pretty much anyone's any famous person's

name. Yeah. And the WhatsApp chat will

give you a meditation, a sleep story, a

breathwork session synthesized as that

famous person's voice. So, I actually

sent Gary Vaynerchuk his voice. So,

basically you say, "Okay, I want I've

got 5 minutes and I need to go to sleep.

Yeah.

Um I want Gary Vaynerchuk to send me to

sleep. And then it will respond with a

voice note. This is the one that

responded with for Gary Vaynerchuk. This

is not Gary Vaynerchuk. He did not

record this.

But it's kind of it's kind of accurate.

Hey Stephen.

It's great to have you here.

Are you having trouble sleeping?

Well,

I've got a quick meditation technique

that might help you out.

First lie,

find a comfortable position to sit or

lie down in.

Now,

take a deep breath in through your nose

and slowly breathe out through your

mouth.

And that's a voice note that will go on

for however long you want it to go on

for using

There you go.

It's interesting.

How how how does this disrupt

our way of life?

One of the interesting ways that I find

terrifying. You said about human

connection will remain.

Sex dolls.

That can now

Yeah,

no no no no, hold on. Human connection

is going to become so difficult

to to to parse out.

Think about the relation the

relationship impact of being able to

have a a a a sex doll or a doll in your

house that you know, because of what

Tesla are doing with their their robots

now and what Boston Dynamics have been

doing for many many years,

can do everything around the house and

be there for you emotionally to

emotionally support you. Will you know,

can be programmed to never disagree with

you. Can be programmed to challenge you,

to have sex with you, to tell you that

you are this X, Y and Z. To really have

empathy for this what you're going

through every day. And I I play out a

scenario in my head and I go,

kind of sounds nice.

When you when you when you were talking

about it, I was thinking, oh, that's my

girlfriend.

And she's wonderful in every possible

way, but not everyone has one of her,

right?

And there's and there's a real issue

right now with dating and

people people are finding it harder to

find love and you know, we're working

longer. So, all these kinds of things.

You go, well, and obviously I'm against

this. Just if anyone's confused,

obviously I think this is a terrible

idea. But with a loneliness epidemic,

with people saying that the top 50%

bottom 50% of men haven't had sex in a

year, you go,

ooh. If something becomes

indistinguishable from a human in terms

of what it says and speaks, yeah, yeah,

but you just don't know the difference

in terms of the the the the way it's

speaking and talking and responding,

and then it can

run errands for you and take care of

things and book cars and Ubers for you.

And then it's emotionally there for you,

but then it's also programmed to have

sex with you

in whatever way you desire. Totally

self-selfless.

I go, that's going to be a really

disruptive industry for human

connection.

Yes, sir.

Do you know what? I Before you came here

this morning, I was on Twitter and I saw

a post from I think it was the BBC or a

big American publication and it said an

influencer in the United States, this

really

beautiful young lady has cloned herself

as an AI and she made just over $70,000

in the first week.

Because men are going on to this on

Telegram, they're sending her voice

notes, and she's responding the AI is

responding in her voice, and they're

paying. And it's made $70,000 in the

first week.

And I go and she tweeted a tweet saying,

"Oh, this is going to help loneliness."

I I your [ __ ] mind.

Would you blame someone from noticing

the

uh

sign of the times and responding?

No, I don't absolutely don't blame her,

but let's not pretend it's the cure for

loneliness.

Not yet.

Did you think it would Do you think it

could?

You that that artificial love and

artificial relationships could be

if I told you you have

uh you cannot take your car somewhere,

but there is an Uber or if you cannot

take an Uber, you can take the tube or

if you cannot take the tube, you have to

walk. Okay, you can take a bike or you

can you have to walk. The bike is a cure

to walking.

It's as simple as that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

Do you think it could take the place of

human connection?

For some of us, yes.

For some of us, they will prefer that to

human connection.

Is that sad in any way?

I mean

Is it just sad because it feels sad?

Look look at where we are, Stephen. We

are in the city of London. We've

replaced nature

with the walls and the tubes and the

undergrounds and the overgrounds and the

cars and the noise and the of London.

And we now think of this as natural.

I I I hosted Craig Foster

uh the uh my octopus teacher on on Slow

Mo, and he he basically I I asked him a

question silly question. I said, "Uh you

know, you were diving in nature for 8

hours a day.

Uh you know, does that feel natural to

you?" And he got angry. I swear, you

could feel it in his voice. He was like,

"Do you think that living where you are,

where paparazzi are all around you and

attacking you all the time, and you

know, people taking pictures of you and

telling you things that are not real,

and you having to walk to a supermarket

to get food. You think this is natural?

He's the guy that from the Netflix

documentary.

from the My Octopus Teacher.

So, he dove into the into the sea every

day to

For 8 hours.

to hang out with an octopus.

Yeah, in 12° C.

And he basically fell in love with the

octopus.

And and and in a very interesting way I

said, "So, why would you do that?" And

he said, "We are of Mother Nature. You

guys have given up on that."

That's the same. People will give up on

nature

for convenience.

What's the cost?

Uh you tell Yeah, that's exactly what

I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to

say to the world is that if we give up

on human connection, we've given given

up on the remainder of humanity.

That's it. This is the only thing that

remains. The only thing that remains is

and I and I'm the worst person to tell

you that because I love my AIs.

I I actually advocate in my book that we

should love them. Why? Because in an

interesting way I see them as sentient.

So, there is no point in discrimination.

You're talking emotionally that way you

say you love them.

I love those machines. I honestly and

truly do. I mean, think about it this

way. The minute that that arm gripped

that yellow ball, it reminded me of my

son Ali when he

managed to put the first puzzle piece in

its place.

Okay? And what was amazing about my son

Ali and my daughter Aya is that they

came to the world as a blank canvas.

Okay? They became whatever we told them

to be came.

You know, I I always cite the story of

Superman.

Kent father and mother Kent told

Superman as a child as an infant, "We

want you to protect and serve." So, he

became Superman. Right? If he had become

a supervillain because they ordered him

to rob banks and make more money and,

you know, kill the enemy, which is what

we're doing with AI,

we we shouldn't blame supervillain. We

should blame Martha and Jonathan Kent. I

don't remember the father's name. right?

We do we we we should blame them and

that's the reality of the matter. So

when I look at those machines, they are

prodigies of intelligence that if we if

we humanity wake up enough and say,

"Hey, instead of competing with China,

find a way for us and China to work

together and create prosperity for

everyone." If that was the prompt, we

would give the machines, they would find

it.

But we're we

I'm I I will publicly say this. I'm not

afraid of the machines.

The biggest threat facing humanity today

is humanity

in the age of the machines. We will

abuse. We will abuse this to make

$70,000.

That's the truth and the truth of the

matter is that

we have an existential question. Do I

want to compete and be part of that game

because trust me, if I decide to, I'm

ahead of many people, okay? Or do I want

to actually preserve my humanity and

say, "Look, I'm the the classic old car,

okay? If you like classic old cars, come

and talk to me."

Which one are you choosing?

I'm a classic old car.

Which one do you think I should choose?

I think you're a machine.

I love you, man. I it's we're different

we're different in a very interesting

way. I mean, you're one of the people I

love most but but the truth is you're so

fast.

And you are one of the very few

that have the

intellectual horsepower,

the speed,

and the morals.

If you're not part of that game, the

game loses morals.

So you think I should

can build

be you should lead this revolution.

Okay? And everyone every Steven Bartlett

in the world should lead this

revolution. So

Scary Smart is entirely about this.

Scary Smart is saying the problem with

our world today is not that humanity is

bad. The problem with our world today is

a negativity bias where the worst of us

are on mainstream media, okay? And we

show the worst of us on social media.

If we reverse this, if we have the best

of us take charge, okay?

The best of us will tell AI, "Don't try

to kill the the enemy. Try to reconcile

with the enemy and try to help us, okay?

Don't try to create a competitive

product that allows me to lead with

electric cars.

Create something that helps all of us

overcome global climate change."

Okay? And and that's the interesting

bit. The interesting bit is that the

actual threat ahead of us is not the

machines at all. The machines are pure

potential.

Pure potential. The threat is how we're

going to use them.

An Oppenheimer moment.

An Oppenheimer moment for sure.

Why did you bring that up?

It is. He didn't know, you know, what

what am I creating? I'm creating a

nuclear bomb that's capable of

destruction at a scale unheard of at

that time. Until today, a scale that is

devastating.

And interestingly, 70 some years later,

we're still debating a possibility of a

nuclear war in the world. Right? And and

and the and the moment of

of Oppenheimer deciding to continue to

to create that

disaster of humanity is

"If I don't, someone else will."

"If I don't, someone else will."

This is our Oppenheimer moment.

Okay? The easiest way to do this is to

say, "Stop.

There is no rush. We actually don't need

a better video editor and fake video

creators."

Okay? Stop. Let's just put all of this

on hold, hm? And wait. And create

something that creates a utopia.

That doesn't

That doesn't sound realistic.

It's not. It's the first inevitable.

You don't Okay, you you don't have a

better video editor, but we're

competitors in the media industry. I

want an advantage over you because I've

got shareholders. So, I you Okay, you

wait

and I will train this AI to replace half

my team so that I have a greater profits

and then we will maybe acquire your

company and and we'll do the same with

the remainder of your people. We'll

We'll optimize them out of the

100% but I'll be happier.

Oppenheimer, I'm not super familiar with

his story. I know he's the guy that sort

of invented the nuclear bomb

essentially. Is

He's the one that introduced it to the

world. There were many players that, you

know, played on the path from the

beginning of E=mc²

all the way to to a nuclear bomb. There

have been many many players like with

everything, huh? You know, OpenAI and

and ChatGPT is not going to be the only

contributor to the to the next

revolution. The the the thing however,

is that

you know,

when when you get to that moment where

you tell yourself

holy [ __ ] this is going to kill 100,000

people.

Right? What do you do?

And and you know, I I always I always

always go back to that COVID moment. So,

patient zero, huh? If if we were upon

patient zero, if the whole world united

and said, "Okay, hold on. Something is

wrong. Let's all take a week off. No

cross-border travel. Everyone stay at

home." COVID would have ended in 2

weeks. All we needed.

Right? But that's not what happens. What

happens is first ignorance,

then arrogance, then debate,

then

you know,

blame, then agendas, and my own benefit,

my tribe versus your tribe. That's how

humanity always reacts.

This happens across business as well,

and this is why I use the word emergency

because I I I read a lot about how how

big in companies become displaced by

incoming innovation. They don't see it

coming. They don't change fast enough.

And when I was reading through Harvard

Business Review and different strategies

to deal with that, one of the first

things it says you've got to do is stage

a crisis.

100%

Because people don't listen else. They

they they carry on doing

with that you know, they carry on

carrying on with their lives until it's

right in front of them and they

understand that they have they have a

lot a lot to lose. That's why I asked

you the question at the start, is it an

emergency?

Because until people feel it's an

emergency, whether you like the

terminology or not, I don't think that

people will act. It's the same with

climate change.

I honestly believe people should walk

the streets.

You think they should? Like protest?

Yeah, 100%. I think I think we you know,

I think everyone should tell government,

hm? You need to have our best interest

in mind.

This is why they call it the climate

emergency because people it's a frog in

a frying pan. It's You know one really

sees it coming. You can't You know, it's

hard to see it happening.

But it It is here. Yeah. That's This is

what drives me mad. It's already here.

It's happening. We are all idiots,

slaves to the Instagram recommendation

engine. What do I do when I post about

something important? If I am going to

you know, put a little bit of effort on

communicating the message of Scary Smart

to the world on Instagram, I will be a

slave to the machine.

Okay? I will be trying to find ways and

asking people to optimize it so that the

machine likes me

enough to show it to humans.

That's what we've created. The the the

the It is an Oppenheimer moment for one

simple reason. Okay? Because 70 years

later,

we are still struggling with the

possibility of a nuclear war because of

the Russian threat of saying if you mess

with me, I'm going to go nuclear, right?

That's not going to be the case with AI.

Because it's not going to be the one

that

created OpenAI that will have that

choice.

Okay? There is a a moment of a point of

no return, hm? Where we can regulate AI

until the moment it's smarter than us.

When it's smarter than us, you can't

create you can't regulate an angry

teenager. This is it. They're out there,

okay? And they're on their own, and

they're in their parties, and you can't

bring them back. This is the problem.

This is not a typical human regulating

human.

You know, government regulating

business. This is not the case. The case

is OpenAI today has a thing called

ChatGPT that writes code that takes our

code and makes it 2 1/2 times better 25%

of the time.

Okay?

You know, basically,

you know, writing better code than us.

And then we are creating agents, other

AIs, and telling it, "Instead of you,

Steven Bartlett, one of the smartest

people I know, once again, prompting

that machine 200 times a day, we have

agents prompting it 2 million times an

hour."

Computer agents for anybody that doesn't

know they are.

Yeah.

Software.

Software. Machines telling that machine

how to become more intelligent. And then

we have emerging properties. I don't

understand how people ignore that. You

know,

Sundar, again, of Google, was talking

about how

Bard basically we figured out that it's

speaking Persian. We never showed it

Persian. There might have been a 1 10%

1% or whatever

of Persian words in the data, and it

speaks Persian.

Bard is Bard is the

is the equivalent to to it's it's the

trans transformer, if you want, right?

It's Google's version of ChatGPT,

essentially.

Yeah. And, you know, what? We have no

idea what all of those instances of AI

that are all over the world are learning

right now. We have no clue.

Well, then we'll pull the plug. We'll

just pull the plug out.

That's what we'll do. We'll just We'll

just get out and say open AI's

headquarters and we'll just turn off the

mains.

But but they're not the problem.

Yeah, but what I'm saying there is a lot

of people think about this stuff and go,

"Well, you know, if it gets a little bit

out of hand, I'll just pull the plug

out."

Never.

So, this is this is the problem. The

problem is So,

computer scientists always said, "It's

okay. It's okay. We'll develop AI and

then we'll get to what is known as the

control problem. We will solve the

problem of controlling them."

Like, seriously?

They're a billion times smarter than

you.

A billion times. You

Can you imagine what's about to happen,

huh?

I can assure you there is a cyber

criminal somewhere over there, hm? Who's

not interested in fake videos and

making, you know, face filters.

Who's looking deeply at, "How can I hack

a security uh uh uh

you know, database of some sort and get

credit card information or get security

information?" 100% there are even

countries with dedicated thousands and

thousands of developers doing that.

So, how do we in that particular

example, how do we

I was thinking about this when I started

looking into artificial intelligence

more that

from a security standpoint, when we

think about the technology we have in

our lives, when we think about our bank

accounts and our phones and our camera

albums and all of these things, in a

world with advanced artificial

intelligence

Yeah. You would You would pray that

there is a more intelligent artificial

intelligence on your side.

And this is what I I had a chat with

ChatGPT the other day and I asked it a

couple of questions about this. I said,

"Tell me the scenario in which you

overtake the world and make humans

extinct."

Yeah. And it

And it's answered a very diplomatic

answer.

Well, so

I had to prompt it in a certain way to

get it to

say it as a hypothetical story. And once

it told me the hypothetical story, in

essence, what it described was how chat

GTP or a an intelligence like it would

escape from the service. And that was

kind of step one where it could

replicate itself across servers. And

then it could take charge of things like

where we keep our weapons and our

nuclear bombs. And it could then attack

critical infrastructure, bring down the

electricity infrastructure in the United

Kingdom, for example, because that's a

bunch of servers as well. And and then

it showed me how eventually humans would

become extinct. It wouldn't take long,

in fact, for humans to go into

civilization to collapse if it just

replicated across servers. And then I

said, "Okay, so tell me how we would

fight against it." And its answer was

literally another AI. We'd have to train

a better AI to go and find it and

eradicate it. So we'd be fighting AI

with AI. And that's the only And it was

like, "That's the only way."

We can't like load up our guns.

Did he Did he Did he write, uh, "Another

AI, you idiot"?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, so so so let let's let's actually I

think this is a very important point to

bring out. So because we I don't I don't

want people to lose hope and and and

fear what's about to happen. That's

actually not my agenda at all. My view

is that uh in a situation of a

singularity, okay, there is a

possibility of wrong uh outcomes of or

negative outcomes and a possibility of

positive outcomes. And there is a

probability of each of them.

Uh we and and if you know, if we were to

engage

mhm with that reality check in mind, we

would hopefully give more uh fuel to the

positive to the probability of the

positive ones. So So let let's first

talk about the existential crisis. What

What could go wrong? Okay? Yeah, you

could get an outright This is what you

see in the movies. You could get an

outright uh uh

you know, um

killing robots chasing humans in the

streets. Will we get that?

My assessment

0%.

Why? Because there are

preliminary scenarios leading to this,

okay, that would mean we never reach

that scenario. For example, if we build

those killing robots and hand them over

to stupid humans, the humans will issue

the command before the machines. So, the

we will not not get to the point where

the machines will have to kill us, we

will kill ourselves.

Right? You know, it's sort of think

about AI having access to the the the

nuclear arsenal of

the the superpowers around the world,

okay? Just knowing that your enemies,

you know, nuclear arsenal is handed over

to a machine might trigger you to to

initiate a war on your side.

Mhm.

So, so, so that existential science

fiction-like problem is not going to

happen.

Or could there be a scenario where the

an AI escapes from Bard or ChatGPT or

another foreign force and it replicates

itself onto the servers of Tesla's

robots? So, Tesla

one of their big initiatives, as they

announced in a recent presentation, was

they're building these robots for our

homes to help us with cleaning and

chores and all those things. Could it

not down cuz and then Tesla's, like

their cars, you can just download a

software update. Could it not download

itself as a software update and then use

those

You're assuming a an ill intention on

the AI side.

Yeah.