Hello.

>> Have a seat, Chris.

>> I'm looking for the Julian Dory podcast.

>> Is that why you're here?

>> That's what the transcript say.

>> I think Deep's got some messages to say

otherwise.

>> Oh, really?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, stop stealing my lines.

Chris Hans says, "It's great to have you

here, man."

>> Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

>> It's kind of cool to turn around on you

for about 3 seconds right there.

>> Yeah.

>> You're a real trained pro with that,

too. You have responses ready. It's

almost like you've seen it before.

>> You know, you start doing something for

40 45 years, you start to get good at

it, you know?

>> Yeah. I mean, do you have like obviously

people see the videos and it's it's real

stuff which is a scary part of it,

>> but then the other part of it is

afterwards like you're doing a great

thing. You're catching someone and

preventing them from hurting a child at

that point obviously cuz law enforcement

takes care of it. But,

>> you know, it's funny after the fact and

that way when you deliver it how you do,

but when you go in there, do you still

have adrenaline like pumping every time?

especially at the beginning of each

individual investigation. You know, a

lot goes into it as you can imagine. So,

the the chatters with law enforcement,

the decoys are working. They're they're

talking to different men online and and

not everybody shows up. Some people say,

"Uh, that's not right. I can't come meet

a 14, 15 year old child for sex." And

and they do the right thing. Good.

Others take longer, but they do

eventually show up. But when that first

one walks in, yeah, I still have that

feeling, you know, of my heart being in

the throat. That's that's how you stay

sharp. I think you never you can never

take it for granted because you don't

know. You think you know who this guy

is. We have various means of checking

their background if they're using a real

phone number, but sometimes you just

don't know. And sometimes those are the

guys who end up being a doctor or a law

enforcement officer or somebody who, you

know, it's just it's real shocking that

they would be involved in this sort of

activity.

I mean, I just don't know. Like, I had

Tommy G in here who's close buddy of

mine,

>> Tommy G came along on one of our stings

in Northern Michigan

>> and he was talking about it when we had

him here for episode 306. He was like,

you know, my heart was like palpitating.

Yeah. when these guys were coming in.

Now, obviously, he hasn't done it a 100

million times like you, but it's like

you're doing a TV show, but it's real

and there's real life consequences to

it. And you're doing a great thing, but

you're like, "Oh my god, like you're

about to end someone's life."

>> I think that that's what has made the

show so enduring and is so captivating

for people to watch it. I mean, it will

be 22 years

this March since we did the very first

investigation.

>> Wow.

>> In Beth Page, Long Island. And you talk

about your heart being in your throat.

When we did that first investigation, we

didn't have law enforcement involved. I

mean, I had a security guy, Ron Knight,

who was, you know, at NBC at the time,

former NYPD lieutenant.

>> Was he loaded?

>> Yeah. Yeah. He he was carrying. He took

all the knives out of the kitchen. But

we didn't know what was going to happen.

>> You know, in those days, in the very

first investigations, we worked with

perverted justice in in all the

investigations we did at NBC, online

watchdog group,

>> and they posed as kids online, and if

somebody made a date with a child, they

would post their identity on their

website in the beginning of their

existence. And if law enforcement could

make a case, they would. We thought we'd

partner with them. But I mean, we're in

this house

and, you know, we don't know who these

guys are. And in that first

investigation in two and a half days, we

had um 17 guys surface, including a New

York City firefighter. And I thought,

"Holy hell, you know, what have we found

here?" I It was It was mindboggling.

But, you know, the guys would leave and

with the exception of the firefighter,

they were never prosecuted for their

crimes that day.

They took off. They were on TV,

but they took off. And we did.

>> They couldn't prosecute that.

>> Well, you got to remember that this was

very early on in the experience.

>> And so it was even early in the process

in the whole movement for law

enforcement to do this. I mean, there I

existed, internet crimes against

children. Stings were happening, but not

to the extent they are today.

Hey guys, three quick things. Number

one, if you haven't subscribed, please

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below. And so the fact that we did this

without law enforcement present and we

did it with an online watchdog group and

even though that online watchdog group

did have some relationships with law

enforcement and you know look I've been

covering law enforcement for my entire

career. So at that point 24 years now in

the second investigation when we went to

Virginia outside of Washington DC these

cases were referred and a lot of them

were prosecuted. But it became clear to

me,

you know, early on that in order to be

socially responsible, we had to

collaborate with law enforcement.

>> How did you pitch this at the beginning?

It was it was such a No one had ever

done anything like this before.

>> We learned about I learned about

perverted justice and um I put together

a pitch for the story pack at DLine and

I said, "Look, these guys do this. I

think if we can combine their talent as

being decoys and our ability to wire a

house with hidden cameras and

microphones and we've done that for

different kinds of stories over the

years,

>> it could be very compelling and it it's

a simple pitch pack. It's three

paragraphs. Hansen

two days later, yeah, we bought it. Go

do it. I signed a producer, Lynn Keller.

She reached out to perverted justice.

You want to do this? Yeah, we'd be happy

to do it. Okay, great. found a house in

in uh Beth Page, as I mentioned, and it

belonged to a retired NYPD cop as well,

and we set it up and did it.

>> And um it was just it it was happening

so fast and so furiously that I remember

at one point early on, I think it was

about the third guy came in and all the

transcripts of the online chats were

mixed up on the dining room table. We're

trying to keep them straight. But I came

out for the third guy with the wrong set

of transcripts. And so I looked at him,

I said, "Well, it says here that you

wanted to do blank, blank, and blank

with a 13-year-old girl named Susie."

Goes, "No, that's not me." I said,

"Excuse me." I go back, get a second set

of transcripts, read the name and the

details. No, that's not me. Finally, on

the third set of transcripts that I

grabbed, it was him. Yeah, that's me.

Okay, good.

And and it was just

stunning to me.

>> Wow.

>> That it was happening so quickly that we

couldn't even keep track of the

transcripts. And we had people there. I

mean, I had a producer, I had an

associate producer, I had security, we

had uh, you know, two people from

Perverted Justice. We had the whole crew

was there, the camera people, both the

hidden camera people with the remote

cameras and regular camera guys. One

guy, Ronnie Knight, the security guy,

had to shove in the basement and said, '

Don't move. Don't speak. Don't do

anything. While another guy came in,

this guy who was from Eastern Europe,

thought he had just entered some sort of

a torture chamber, snuff movie kill zone

of some sort. He thought he was cooked,

you know, and he left there without

being harmed or facing any criminal

charges. So,

>> that part those guys were rather

fortunate. Yeah, it does. The the

firefighter was investigated by the FBI

and he was prosecuted. Now, why did they

just out of the 17 guys that day, why

did they just pick him?

>> Because we knew, we were able to

identify him by name. We are able to

identify him in terms of where he

worked, which firehouse in Brooklyn. We

went out and confronted him after the

fact and he admitted it on camera. And

so, the the the feds had a pretty easy

case. And I believe, if memory serves me

correctly, I believe he took a plea

bargain and I think he had to leave the

fire department.

>> Well, good.

>> Yeah.

>> But this is back in 0304 when you were

first in March of 04.

>> Okay. So, you mentioned it was like a 2

and 1/2 day investigation before the

first one. What did that look like? Cuz

that's not that long a time to put this

together and get 17 hits. Now you know

perverted justice had been in the chat

rooms and they had been working posing

as children and you know they would go

in there and and just hang out and if

they were approached and remember in

those days it was a little I don't want

to say easier but it was a little more

direct because most of this activity was

taking place in chat rooms on AOL and

Yahoo and that antiquated platform

called MySpace. So it was all right

there. Yeah. So if you could go in there

and pose as a child, they would have

lengthy conversations sometimes over

weeks and guys would, you know, groom

and they try to cajul these kids into

sexual relationships and, you know, they

thought they'd hit a home run. They

thought they found the child of their

dreams in this very perverted um, you

know, potentially damaging and criminal

way. So it was more targeted then. And

so it wasn't unusual to have that many

guys in such a short period of time.

Well, you and I are talking at a time

right now where this really just

completely up underworld is, I

don't know, maybe finally getting

somewhat of the light it should have

shined on it by everyone else besides

you

>> for once because of the stories like the

Epstein, because of the stories like the

Roblox, which you and I are going to

talk about today with your new

documentary, and because of a litany of

different organizations of pedophiles

that people are just uncovering.

But, you know, before you went to do

this, you obviously knew it was a

problem. You knew these people were out

there. Did your perspective

get exponentially worse after the very

first one shows 17 hits just in one

area?

>> Look, I didn't

know if anybody was going to show up.

Right. When I was driving out to that

sting house during the first

investigation,

I was wondering if, you know, I just

blown tens of thousands of dollars of

the network's money. You know, what if

nobody shows up? What if this was a

great idea, but executing it was

impossible.

>> And we know that's a possibility with

every story, but you don't want that to

happen. And as I was on my way out

there, the producer called me and said,

"Hey, two guys are due here in 45

minutes. You got to get here." I said,

"All right, well, I'm, you know, I'm on

the thro's neck. The traffic is going to

clear in a minute. I'll get there." Um,

>> wait, two at the same time?

>> We've had that happen on on numerous

occasions,

>> literally, uh, throughout the years.

And, and, you know, we can control it a

little bit and have

the decoys hold the guy off or just wait

a minute. But we've had we've had and it

happens in virtually every sting. You

know, we were out uh

>> Keep the mic with you if you don't mind.

>> A few months ago and you know, one guy

had to I had to finish up quickly

because another guy was on his way.

We've had guys sit next to each other.

We had a case in u Flaggler Beach,

Florida where two guys came in at the

same time and one guy knew what was

going on and one didn't. And he, one guy

looks at the other goes, you know, when

he's done with us, we are so screwed. It

was it was uh Tennis Boy 213 and Slaves

to Mistress.

>> Those were their names.

>> Those were the screen names.

>> Not hiding much.

>> No.

>> On the second one.

>> No. No. Tennis Boy 213. That was an odd

one, but for what he was doing. But

>> how do you have a decoy if two guys get

there at the same time? I'm just trying

to picture this. What do you mean a

decoy is keeping them away outside the

house? It's like, well, they're

chatting, so they can say, "Hey, hold

off for a minute. I'm getting in the

shower. Hey, hold off for a minute. You

know, my mom popped back in for a

second." So, there's a million excuses

that they could they could slow the guy

down.

>> And typically, we don't give out the

address, you know, immediately. We wait

till they're in orbit till we can

control the situation a little bit.

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order. Yeah, it always every time like

when I would see the ones where you'd

have the obviously like you have the

fake kid there when you're doing this

>> and that was where the show ended up and

it's like first of all amazing acting

always on those decoys. But secondly,

you're just like, "Oh my god, like is

what if something happens real fast and

they don't get in there soon enough?"

Did you ever have close calls with

things like that? We never had anything

that turned out to be,

you know, dangerous where somebody got

hurt. But you do wonder, and people ask

me all the time, do you ever feel sorry

for these guys? You know, because

sometimes a guy will walk in there, he's

19, 20, 21 years old. Is it the first

mistake he's ever made? Does he think

that maybe it's okay because the decoy

is posing as a 14 or 15 year old? the

age difference won't mean much if the

relationship were to take root.

But then I always look at the examples

like in the episode that drops today as

we record this episode on the 26th of

February. And in that case down in

Louisiana, Livingston Parish, Louisiana,

a young guy came in and he swore up and

down. He' never done this before. He,

you know, he wasn't going to really do

anything. Now, I know in the chat he has

talked about making a porn video with

this girl. I watched him come into the

house and try to give a big hug to the

sheriff's deputy decoy posing as the

child. You know, there are a lot of

young deputies that get involved in

these cases. We don't use civilians

anymore generally.

>> And so now I've got him on the hot seat

and he sticks to his story and he admits

it doesn't look good. And we go on and

on and we go at it for about 25 minutes,

30 minutes. And they take him away. His

backpack's there. And what do you

suppose is at the bottom of that

backpack?

>> Condoms.

>> Loaded .38 pistol. Full clip. So what

happens now? I doubt very much that he

could have gotten in there, got the gun

out, and got a shot off to the extent

that he would hurt me or anybody else. I

mean, we a lot goes into this in terms

of precautions,

but what happens if we're not there and

he's alone with a 14y old girl? And what

happens if she doesn't want to cooperate

in the making of this porn video? And

what happens if it doesn't go his way

and he tries something aggressive and

now he thinks he's he's in trouble and

that law enforcement is going to go

after him for sexual assault. What

happens? Does he use that gun on the

girl to threaten her to comply? Does he

use it to kill her and hide the body? It

raises all kinds of horrific questions.

>> And so we have that. So yeah. Yeah.

There. Look, there's an inherent level

of danger involved in doing it, right?

And I understand that that's part of the

draw. That's part of the interest and

allure to viewers. And

I'm comfortable that we have taken every

precaution possible to create a safe

environment when we do this. A lot goes

into it as I've said. And so we make it

absolutely as safe as possible. Is it is

it absolutely guaranteed?

No. Nothing's guaranteed.

>> You know, nothing that adventurous or

that enterprising is ever guaranteed.

>> What is the legality in that situation?

My first question is, did you find out

if he legally owned the gun or illegally

owned the gun?

>> He had the gun legally. We learned after

the fact.

>> So, is that a legal?

>> Well, it's it's an interesting question

because he can legally own the gun at I

believe certain guns can be owned at 18

or 21 in the state of Louisiana where we

were. He can carry that gun without a

special pistol license. But if he's

using the gun in the commission of a

felony, it could

>> be a crime,

>> right?

>> Because you can possess a gun, you can

have it, and we see this in southern

states where the carry laws are pretty

liberal,

but if you use that in the commission of

a crime, then you could face another

felony. Now, did he use it in the

commission of this crime? Not yet. So,

and as far as I know, he has not been

charged with a gun crime in that case

>> because that's that's what I was

thinking. I'm like, if he owns it

legally and it's at the bottom of his

bag

>> and he never took it out, you don't see

him go for it ever on camera,

>> technically,

>> it's not a crime and he's not going to

be charged with it,

>> but what you're saying is perfectly

valid. It's like, why did he have it

there?

>> Right. We had a situation in Alabama

during a sting where I'm interviewing a

guy and he's not being threatening at

all, but you know, we're going at it

pretty hard. And the lieutenant sees on

the the monitor in the other room that

he's got a big 45 hanging out of his

pants. And he comes out and I didn't see

it. I look pretty carefully, right, at

what's going on and what the bulges are

and all that. And I always make them

take their hands out of their pockets.

But the lieutenant came in and said,

"Hey, put your hands up and he grabs the

gun out." He said, "Do you have a gun?"

And the guy pulls it out of his pants

and sets it on the kitchen counter,

pointed at me, and everybody, you know,

gets a little bit alarmed and they take

the gun and off they go. But it's it's

something we see, not in the majority of

cases certainly, but we see it from time

to time.

Outside of coming in and being direct

and obviously delivering your line

perfectly every time, what are what is

what are your first instincts when you

walk in there? What outside of also

looking for a gun? You already mentioned

that, but like what kinds of things are

you looking for? Are you just totally

clear on like let me just address this

person and see if they understand why

they're here?

>> Well, I want to engage, right? So

oftentimes it's not aggressive unless

they're aggressive from the start and I

feel that I need to take control of the

situation.

>> So in some jurisdictions, law

enforcement makes the first contact,

right? And so that makes it easier in

some ways because it's already the

situation's settled. The guy's got

handcuffs on by the time I interview

him. In a lot of the scenarios, I get

the first crack at it and that's when I

have to control the environment. So if

he starts antsing around or trying to go

for the door, you know, we have code

words between my crew and law

enforcement and when they hear you don't

want to do that, that's their cue to

come in and take control of him. Now, in

most incidents, I can become a little

bit more aggressive and doineering and I

can get him in the in the chair in the

seat and then we can start it. And if

they start, who are you? What do you

think you're going to do? And sometimes

they think they know exactly who I am.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, many times in the chats now we

see this sounds like a Chris Hansen

thing or this sounds like a Sheriff

Grady Jud thing or Sheriff Chris Swanson

thing, you know. Or we had one guy

>> in our most recent investigation in

Livingston Parish, Louisiana, who

actually sent an article from the local

paper about a previous sting I had done

with the sheriff, Jason Hart. He said,

'You know, they worked together on some

of these things and still came over and

felt so comfortable that he got in the

pool

and the hot tub at the decoy house at

the sting house. And then I confronted

him. He said, "I knew it. I What did you

know?" I knew it could be you. I said,

"Then what are you doing here?" And the

drive to fulfill the fantasy of having

sex with a child for some of these men

is so strong,

just like a heroin addiction where they

know there's a 20% chance fentanyl could

be in the heroin and could kill them.

They know there's a 20% chance it's me

or some other law enforcement agency

looking for adults praying on children

and they could get busted. And they the

the need to fulfill this fantasy

overrides common sense

or or any respect for the law or for a

child.

Where does it come from? Where do you

think it comes from?

>> Isn't that what we'd all want to know? I

wish I could tell you. I know it's not a

one-sizefits-all diagnosis. I am not by

any stretch of the imagination trained

in psychiatry to be able to give you a

clinical diagnosis on any of these guys.

But having looked at hundreds of them in

the eye across from a table just like we

are speaking now I can tell you that my

theory is they break down into roughly

three categories. Right? There's the

hardcore heavy hitter. He'll do this

with or without the internet. He'd have

been the guy at the mall, you know, the

movie theater, the bad little league

coach, whatever, wherever he can get

access to kids. These guys have to be in

prison for life.

They're the young guys, the

opportunists,

19, 20 years old.

You know, if the girl's willing, they

don't see it as a crime. Even though I

would argue there's no difference

between a 19-year-old predator's danger

and a 39year-old's predator's danger,

right? It's the same danger to a child.

>> And then there's this more complicated

group in between, you know, the

professional in his 30s, 40s or 50s.

>> And he's thought about this. He's

thought about his urges for a boy or a

girl.

And normally they can keep that in

check. They operate their regular lives.

And then it gets to a point where they

fantasize so frequently that the only

thing that will fulfill the fantasy is a

real life encounter. And that's when we

see them knock on the door of a sting

house.

>> Yeah. The way I'm thinking about how you

just put that really is also like what

part of life someone's into. The the

first category aside, the people who you

call some of these guys, they just they

got to go away. These are the guys who,

you know, could face castration in

Louisiana. They could face the death

penalty in other states. Um, and and and

maybe that's good. Maybe they should

because that's the only thing that's

going to stop them besides lifetime

incarceration.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You can't It's It's the

ultimate It's like It's It's like being

a vampire.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you do that you do that to a

kid. There's something you are taking

from them for the rest of their life

that can never be fixed. And and what

causes that? Is it uh wiring of the

brain? Is it a childhood experience? Is

it the fact that they were victimized as

a child? Is it

any number of things? Yeah. I think

again there's no one straight line

diagnosis for this. And and we want easy

answers in society, right? In American

society, we want this is a bad guy, lock

him up forever. this is a bad guy. Give

him a shot that's going to keep him from

offending. This is a bad guy who should

go into treatment and he should come out

of it better. It's not the same guy.

>> And until we get our arms around that,

um, you know, we're going to continue to

to deal with the same the same issues,

but it's not going away. And the

internet has only gotten more

ubiquitous in terms of the platforms

available for adults to approach

children. I mean again as I told you in

the beginning used to be three spots now

I can't even keep track of them anymore

and the online games and everything else

we have going on it it creates a lot of

opportunity so not only would I argue

that there is more of this activity than

ever before but it's also so much more

diffuse that it's more difficult to

investigate and catch the guys because

there's thousand places they could be

>> yes

>> and I can't be in all those places. The

law enforcement across the country,

across the world can't be in all those

places.

>> That's right.

>> You know, we did a my wife and I went to

a fundraiser Saturday night the couple

days before this recording

down in Florida for the Child Rescue

Coalition. And this organization uses

technology that can track the

trafficking of child seam in real time.

And they share this technology for free

with law enforcement around the world.

and they they take a crack at it from

that standpoint and I think that's one

of the most effective ways to go after

these guys because if you cut off the

source of child and seesam you eliminate

a lot of children being abused in an

effort to create this material but you

also cut off what I think is is the fuel

in some cases that gets these guys so

cranked up to commit these crimes. There

is without exception

when somebody gets caught offending

a link to viewing child porn. I I

believe and and a lot of people smarter

than me who study this a lot deeper than

I do agree that almost without exception

there's a link between viewing child

porn and offending. And if you view it

long enough you will offend. And so

that's why when people say to me, "Well,

at least they're just looking at it.

They're not they're not." I said, "No,

no, no. First of all, a child had to be

victimized to make it,

>> right? And I don't care. You can get

into this argument about

>> AI generated stuff or whatever. It's

still child porn.

>> And ultimately, this predator is going

to get to a point where it's not enough

and he's going to try to find a real

child. And that's just the way it is.

>> Yep. I and I do think there's something

to like we joke about it all the time

like not not child porn but regular porn

and stuff but I think there's even

something to that too

>> with some of these guys too with how

ubiquitous porn is around them period

>> and you can get it for free when I was a

young teen if we wanted to look at what

was considered to be porn in 1973 or

1974

we would have to and it wasn't even it

wasn't even really porn. It was a it was

a Playboy fold out, right?

>> I mean, it was

>> not even nude, right? It was very

straightforward.

>> We would have to sneak into the garage

of a buddy's dad, find the hidden box of

previous

u editions of Playboy, somehow sneak

those out of the garage without our mom

seeing it, take it to the woods

someplace to look at it, and then bury

it for a future date if somebody else

wanted to look at it. That was how you

looked at porn today. It's a few

keystrokes and you can see, you know,

some of the most aggressive

>> Yeah.

>> pornography ever made.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's the world has changed.

>> It wires people's brains.

>> It does wire people's brains. And and

the other thing that, you know, we talk

about all the time and we figure out we,

you know, need to do a documentary on

is,

you know, the large number of female

teachers getting caught uh sexually,

right, involved with young male

students,

>> right?

You know, I think some of this stuff

starts out on porn sites as fantasy porn

and people get caught up in it. Women,

too.

>> I could see that.

>> And we don't find women in our stings.

And the experts will tell us it's

because women predators, female

predators don't like the anonymity

involved in our stings where male

predators get off on it.

>> Female predators want to know their

victim. They want to know who it is.

It's a student. It's little Billy so and

so over there. Well, this is safe for me

to go exploit him. But it causes the

same kind of damage in society. We look

at it maybe it's a little boy's fantasy,

right? He'll be fine. But it does it

does cause damage. And if you're the

parent of that 13-year-old boy, you got

to put that genie back in the bottle

>> and and get him back to an age

appropriate set of behavior. And it's

very difficult. And then what does he do

because of that experience down the

road?

>> You know, what does that make him

Yeah, there is a bit of a I guess like

the the lens we view it double standard

with that.

>> Absolutely there is. And and every time

we do a story on it or we mention it or

I say something on social media about

it, it's like oh you just got to live

his dream come true. That's not that's

not how it works, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Like it's it's

funny, but like it's it it's not. I just

sometimes you'll see it. I think it gets

a little strange when it's like a 16 or

17 year old boy

like 23.

>> That's a young man.

>> Yeah. And then you're like,

>> right,

>> you know, but she's still a predator.

>> It's not ideal. And she's in a position

of power authority. It'd just be like,

you know, if you're 18 years old working

at a company and the 22year-old,

23y old supervisor,

>> right,

>> she's got power over you.

>> That's right.

>> It'd be wrong if it was a guy. It's

wrong if it's a girl.

I understand the double standard and I

understand the difference in psychology

and the difference in you know men are

supposed to be able to stick up for

themselves but you know it's still an

issue.

>> Yeah. And there's also you know you talk

about those three categories of types

and you went in a different direction. I

thought you were going to go with that.

And that's, you know, that's also from

like the personal experience of seeing

it up close. But like even zooming out

more, just my amateur way of looking at

it was always like, well, you have one

obvious crowd who was abused when they

were a child and now they've become the

abuser.

>> And I think that's legitimate. I think

we see that, too. And I kind of put that

in that either the the hardcore heavy

hitter category or in the uh the middle

category, the more mysterious one. it

it's that's that's that's

definitely in play there.

>> And it's it's a weird thing because I

have zero empathy for them as an adult

and I have zero empathy for the act or

anything like that. But I go back and I

think about the kid

>> who had that happen to them and the kid

version of them I'm like damn like

>> I've had guys tell me that we caught a

guy in Marian County, Florida. We we did

a sting this past summer. 41 guys showed

up in six days. 41 just in Marian

County, Florida. Now, some came from

farther away.

And I'm questioning the guy in the in

the uh sheriff's department and at some

point he breaks down and says, "Can I

tell you something?" I said, "Yeah,

absolutely." He said, "Well, I was, you

know, abused by this older man and woman

in my subdivision growing up. They had

me cut the lawn and then they had me

take my shirt off when I cut the lawn

and then they had sex with me and you

know maybe I mean he could be lying to

me too. We weren't able to confirm all

this but you know maybe that had

something to do with this guy in this

case.

>> Um he claimed it did. I don't accept

that as an excuse because if you were

abused as a kid,

and this is oversimplifying it

obviously, but I I think you should know

the damage that caused and you should

take whatever steps you have to take to

not damage another kid.

>> I agree. The other category though is

the category of people who just became

this or decided to become this. They

weren't abused and something happens.

Now, you mentioned it could be from them

at some point taking the really dark

rabbit hole down porn and that leading

to the illegal dark web version of it.

It could be, you know, other things of a

nonsexual nature that happen to them in

their life that then they want to take

power over other people because of it. I

could go on and on and on and people way

more qualified than me could. But like I

don't know. I I guess the fact I'm

grateful for the fact that that can't

process to me how you would get there,

>> right? It's good that we can't

understand it, right?

>> Because if we could understand it, it'd

be awfully scary to think that way.

>> Um, we need to understand it and

thankfully there are people who do, you

know, medical doctors, psychiatrists who

go into prisons and interview these guys

to get information. Um, but it's a dark

area of medicine to be in. And I think

that's one of the issues. I mean, if you

go to medical school and you spend 10,

12 years, you know, specializing, are

you going to do plastic surgery on Park

Avenue across the river here? Are you

going to go into federal prisons and

interview

>> pedos,

>> right?

>> I mean, it's it's it's

>> you have to have a a special drive to to

do that. And it's dark, man.

>> It's very dark.

>> I mean, you know, I am thankful that

I've never seen an image of Seam, and I

never want to see it, but somebody's got

to look at it. Somebody's got to prepare

the prosecutor. Somebody's got to say

this is what it is and file the charges.

And those people, man, that's a dark

job. And it takes a toll on them. I've

seen it.

>> Even some of the redacted

images that we're all forced to see when

we open up Twitter now with these

Epstein files where it's

>> it's clear.

>> Yeah. what you're looking at it like

sends it puts the worst type of

goosebumps on you because you're like

>> these are 50 60 70 year olds people and

they're all rich by the way that makes

it like something even about that even

makes it worse.

>> So why why do you have to pick on kids?

You could have

sex with virtually anybody, you know,

you wanted or a lot of different people.

But picking on kids and and living in

this world where Epstein had so much

power and influence, I mean, it's crazy,

you know, what what went on there and

how he was able to manipulate

people and money and to um from a very

young age

lie, cheat, and steal his way to being

nearly a billionaire.

I mean, the New York Times did an

article

several weeks ago

>> and they interviewed for the Sunday

magazine and they interviewed his boss

at Bear Sterns

>> who said, "I I regret I didn't kill his

career when I had the chance to because

they found that he had lied on his

resume."

>> And he was able to convince him that,

hey, look, if if I didn't lie, I mean,

those are schools I couldn't get into. I

learned on the streets. I have a hard

knocks education and I'm obviously

performing. I apologize for lying on my

resume, but let me go to work. And they

let him. And he continued and ultimately

he got fired from there and ended up

someplace else and manipulated, you

know, Les Wexner into giving him control

of a lot of money and a lot of other

people too. And even after

he served time in the 2008 case, that

sentence, which was

so crazy to me looking back, that this

was a case that could have gone federal,

right, where he should have done serious

prison time that they were able to have

lawyers manipulate this and to talk the

government into a deal where he did 12

or 13 months basically

living nights and weekends in a in a

county jail, able to go to his office,

>> right,

>> from 9:00 to 5 and do whatever he

wanted.

>> How about what he pled to too,

>> right? To not to having an underage

prostitute but not knowing it

essentially,

>> right? Seven and it was 17 years and 10

months when there were 43 victims that

were all 12, 13, and 14 years old. And

they were able to

manipulate law enforcement in in in some

ways public opinion into thinking that

what he was doing was creepy and bad,

but it was basically hiring, you know,

poor girls from the other side of the

tracks to model bathing suits and give

mass massages. And they were really of

the age of consent when in fact it

wasn't. It was a worldwide track

trafficking organization bringing girls

in from Eastern Europe and Russia and

Asia and all kinds of places, you know,

and and you know, we started to look at

this

back around 2015

and I had some investigators who I'd

known for a long time who had been in

federal law enforcement who were working

with lawyers for the survivors

and

you know, I tried to get too fancy with

it. I was trying to figure out how to do

a sting, you know, how do I sting him?

You know, how do I do this in in New

York? And the levels of security were so

so

strong that there were you couldn't

infiltrate it, right? And so I, you

know, the truth is I just got busy with

other stories and I kind of set it

aside. It was Julie K. Brown at the

Miami Herald

>> who kept chipping away and chipping away

and got these uh survivors to speak

publicly. And without that fine work at

that newspaper by her by by by Julie K.

Brown and other reporters,

that case in 2019 likely doesn't get

prosecuted when it does.

>> And the US attorney at the time even

said so in the news conference. He said

he pointed to the fine work by the by

the Miami Herald. And so it shows me

that some of these stories only come to

light by focusing only on that one story

and chipping away and chipping away and

chipping away. It also shows me the

importance of local news which I don't

think gets the funding that it deserves

in some cases. I come from local news.

You know I started in Lancing, Michigan,

went to Tampa, Detroit and then went to

NBC and done everything since then that

I've done. But it is important and I

think every reporter

should ideally I mean we're in a

different world now because people can

start off in different ways but should

should be responsible to a local

community and they were at the Miami

Herald.

>> Yeah. And it it was incredibly brave

what they pulled off

>> and they had they had private eyes.

Bless you. They had private eyes tailing

them. They they play these people play

dirty. You know Epstein played dirty.

>> Oh yeah. Did you know had were you aware

of the case in 2008 when he got the deal

or did you not become aware till 201?

>> I didn't I didn't start paying attention

to it until 1516.

>> And what got you paying attention to it

in the first place? I knew law

enforcement agents who I'd worked with

when I was in local news, who had moved

around the country and we had stayed in

touch, who were at that point in private

investigations and had been retained by

some of the lawyers representing the

victims to

find information.

>> Okay. So, it was

>> for for for the civil suits that

ultimately were brought and settled.

>> Got it. I wasn't sure if

>> So, that was my end. So, I had, you

know, I had some documents from the Palm

Beach estate,

not necessarily smoking gun stuff, but I

had I had phone logs, for instance, and

I spent a Saturday and Sunday just

calling people up and down this list.

And some were legitimate massage

therapists.

One was

a a victim, and I heard from her

attorney like 10 minutes later saying,

"Look, she's not ready to talk now. I

still talked to the attorney. She's not

talked, but I'm going to hopefully talk

to her one day on my podcast.

>> So, you know, you chip away at this

stuff

and you ultimately will find answers. I

mean, I interviewed

a uh an author in the UK, Andrew Looney,

for the latest episode of one of my

podcasts, Have a See with Chris Hansen.

and he had just come from lunch with a

source on the case involving the former

uh ambassador to the US and uh former

Prince Andrew.

>> Uh in the three days between the time we

recorded the interview and the time that

it went up on Have a Seat with Chris

Hansen, Andrew had been arrested. The

former ambassador had been arrested and

everything else that he talked about is

going to happen. I mean, this this could

be the downfall

of the British government in terms of

the prime minister because the prime

minister spoke up on behalf of the the

uh ambassador who lied and said he had

nothing to do with it. These people gave

Epstein sensitive government information

and they were rewarded by having access

to women in some cases girls who were

underage. This is I mean this this is

something that I have not seen in 45

years of being a journalist.

>> Yeah.

>> And and I wish I had been preient enough

in 2015 2016 to see where this is going.

You know, we keep up with it now. We're

very aggressively reporting on it now.

But it's it's I don't think anybody

besides Epstein

knew how deep this went. Did you have

obviously you didn't know how deep it

went in 2015? No one did. But when you

were, I don't know, spending that

Saturday and Sunday going through the

phone logs and finding people and then

looking at at least the specs that these

private detectives had given you, was

there something in your gut at all that

was like, "This is different. This is

another level."

>> Yeah. I wish I had

known more at that time because I could

have really garnered resources to to

really focus more on it as opposed to

some other projects. Good projects,

important projects. But, you know, we

were at that point getting ready to gear

up the predator investigations again.

So, I was focused on that. The Hansen

versus Predators. I was starting um

Crime Watch Daily. I anchored that show

for a couple years. And we were doing

stuff on ID. This is before podcast and

my streaming network and all that. So,

you know, I wasn't in a position to say,

"Okay, I'm only going to do this." You

know, I've always as a part of my job or

jobs had to do a lot of different things

at the same time. And that's cool.

That's that's what I do. But, you know,

yes, is there a part of me that wishes I

could have focused on just that? Yeah.

But I didn't realize at the time

how big this was.

>> Yeah. I remember I'd been saying this. I

remember I saw an article. I believe it

was in 2017. It could have been 2015,

but I I think it was like 2017. Might

have been in Politico or something like

that that was outlining a little bit

about this. I remember looking at that

and just kind of saying, "Wow, what a

sick rich guy."

>> Yeah.

>> And then kind of went on, what a bad

guy. because they they tried to shape

this. His lawyers, his PR people tried

to shape this as creepy and yeah, he had

younish girls coming in and giving

massages. Yeah, it became sexual, but

they're all of age. They all consented.

And they tried to make it look like,

okay, he was just taking advantage of

poor girls on the other side of the

tracks. But that's

>> just a tiny piece of this. I mean, Gain

Maxwell was going to universities and

recruiting women. They had uh trips to

Eastern Europe to identify models and

telling them that they could be

Victoria's Secret models because of the

Les Wexner connection. And you know,

along the way, I'm sure they're picking

up whomever they could possibly pick up

to be a part of this and to bring them

to the island, to bring him to the

mansion, to bring him to the Palm Beach

State. Um, you know, it was you we're

talking about hundreds if not thousands

of women of of girls here, children.

>> Yeah. And and with the latest drop of

Epstein files, like I I've looked at

this case religiously since 2019, it's

because it just it's it's actually even

way more than just the underage sex

trafficking. There's a million things

going on with it. That's just the worst

part of it or what we what I should say

we thought was the worst part of it. And

now when you read these emails,

there are all kinds of things on the

table that I can't confirm yet or

anything, but the fact that they're even

on the table is a possibility.

>> Oh, I agree. I see them, too. I mean,

I've got multiple sources feeding me

information,

>> you know, like you, you know, you have

people who are online sleuths who have

ways of tapping into different things

that I don't have necessarily the the

the knowledge to to do. And and these

things come my way. and I evaluate them

and first of all try to see if it's true

or not and does it make sense and then

what do I do with it? You know, I I've

never held anything back ever for anyone

and never will. So, but you also have to

view this in a way that that this is a

unique situation, right? If I had my

brothers as a reporter, I would want the

criminal files on every high-profile

criminal case from Guthrie going back my

entire career. But the reason those

files typically aren't released

is because they contain unverified

information

and they contain information where there

wasn't enough probable cause to get a

warrant and to start a criminal

prosecution.

>> Yes. So in our society we have said that

if if that doesn't exist

then those files that information that

investigative material should not be

released to the public because you can

damage somebody's reputation whose

activities did not rise to the threshold

of criminal prosecution.

So this is unique.

>> Yes,

>> we usually don't get stuff like this

unverified raw information.

And so that adds, and look, I'm not

standing up for anybody in the Epstein

Files, but it does add a layer of

responsibility for guys like you, guys

like me, and across the board to make

sure we're not accusing something that

we can't back up. because it would not

surprise me that Epstein falsified some

of this stuff, made things look worse

than they were to establish some some

blackmail plot.

>> And I'm sure I'm sure he squeezed a lot

of people

>> for money and other things u because he

had something or could threaten

something true or not. A lot of look

there's a lot of bad behavior, right?

There's a lot of horrible things. Look

at all the people who have stepped down

from prominent positions.

>> Larry Summers,

>> it's something,

>> you know.

>> Yeah, we were d we had a list of that,

right? The latest people. Tom Pritsker

stepped down from his board position.

>> And what are these guys thinking? I

mean, on one level, you could sort of

understand, okay, if the guy hadn't

faced any criminal charges and he was

just a a playboy

millionaire who had a private jet in an

island, you could see his attraction.

You could see why other single guys who

were playboys who like attractive women

would hang out with him, right? You can

understand that. But once he's charged,

>> yeah,

>> as a predator, I mean, this guy should

have been persona non grata for

everybody. For Bill Gates, for the

Clintons, for everybody.

You can't do business or you shouldn't

be doing business with a registered sex

offender. and you have a responsibility

to do your due diligence if you're a

former president, if you're a government

official

uh to to make sure the people you're

dealing with are are on the up and up. I

mean, look at Prince Andrew. I mean,

this thing is just And for him to have

allegedly said to the arresting

officers, "Oh, I'm the queen's son. You

can't do this to me."

>> Oh, he said that.

>> That's the report.

>> You get your ass in the car, fat boy.

you ain't a prince no more,

>> you know.

>> Oh my god, I didn't hear that.

>> And and you have to know that, you know,

Charles is just glad to get this problem

out of there. There's been no indication

that he's been involved. I mean,

obviously, you know, there are issues.

You know, what did you know and when did

you know it? And should you have cut

ties with him earlier,

>> but you know, he's in trouble on this

thing. I mean, you know, selling using

your position to get trade information

and then giving it to Epstein in turn in

return for sexual favors.

>> I mean, that's that's that's treasonous.

It is. And you talk about though these

people who were really close to him, the

ones we know were really close to him,

who stayed associated with him where we

know full well that they knew

>> what he had been accused of and

>> and continued the behavior. This wasn't

a guy

>> who said, "Hey, I made a mistake. I, you

know, I I let somebody into the circle

who was too young. She gave me a

massage. There was a sexual act. You

know, I'm going to

>> go out of my way to start foundations

and to to to do right and to to lead by

example." He went right back to it.

>> That's right.

>> And arguably worse activity than ever

before.

>> And that's what I'm saying because he

was from an environment where he could.

And it's not just the wealth he had.

It's the status in society. And this

>> it's a sense of impunity. It's the same

sense of impunity that former Prince

Andrew has, that his former wife has,

that Epstein and his buddies had. Um,

they just didn't think it was it applied

to them. You know, I interviewed Julia

Bryant, who's an Epstein survivor, who

was in South Africa, attractive young

woman of legal age, but was coerced

uh into coming back to the ranch, woke

up in a surgical suite and still doesn't

know exactly what happened

>> in a surgical.

>> Yeah. At the at the New Mexico ranch

that he had this all kinds of stuff that

was allegedly going on there. But she

met Epstein when he was with Clinton

and um other dignitaries

>> in O2.

>> In in no after O2

>> again

>> when they were in South Africa

>> again they did that again. Well,

whatever whatever the date was of that

South African trip, whether it was O2 or

right around in that area, it was I

guess it would be before '08 and and in

and the charges. But I mean, here's a

woman who

>> was eager to get into modeling, met

somebody who was with the president, the

former president of the United States. I

mean, how much more safe can you get?

Secret Service agents there

at dinner. Kevin Spacy's there, a

Hollywood movie star. You know, of

course she thinks that it's going to be

okay. She certainly didn't bargain for

what happened to her in in New Mexico,

>> and she doesn't have any recollection.

>> She has theories.

>> I mean, I we did this interview for Have

a Seat with Chris Hansen, and it's, you

know, and and I knew her story. I had

been prepped for the interview, but, you

know, things kept coming out of it

where I was learning things on the fly

from her. I mean, it was it's it's it's

amazing. And this guy was, you know, not

prosecuted or investigated by local

authorities there. I mean, he he threw

money around like it was nobody's

business. It's also so strange, Chris,

that to this like they're only now

apparent and it's very hazy what's going

on. They're only now apparently going to

look at

exuming some of the ground around Zoro

Ranch or actually going in there. It's a

whole

>> Well, that's where this took place. So,

what else is going on there? You know,

we we did a big investigation for

Discovery Plus on Peter Nygard, you

know, and he was a billionaire

freakazoid, you know,

>> and part of his deal, he's in prison up

in in jail up in Canada waiting, you

know, charges all over the all over the

globe. But his deal was that he would

allegedly impregnate young women in the

Bahamas where he had a huge home and

then have them get abortions and and and

harvest their stem cells of the fetuses

to inject in himself as the fountain of

youth. And this we get into this in in

that documentary. And um I mean was

Epstein involved in that sort of

activity?

I don't know.

That's where and again

we just have to look at what we have and

know what we don't yet.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's a question.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And when you look at

>> what other billionaire guys have done,

you know, were they in contact somehow?

I mean obviously you know there there

are some people who are in the

concentric circles of of associates

you know billionaire sex predators I

mean

similar acts right

>> you have to ask those questions

>> de can we pull up some of those emails

where they use the code word jerky

>> because the Joe and I have looked

through this a bunch cuz

>> I'm going to hit the men's room. Hold

that thought.

>> Okay, we'll be right back.

>> I'm going to get

>> All right, we're back. So, we have some

of these emails up right here.

>> And again,

>> like you have to think of these things,

as you put it, Chris, as if you're in

like a court of law and what you can

prove and what you can't. And right now,

if you just looked at these alone, they

don't definitively prove anything.

>> But can we pull up that email you had

up?

>> Yeah.

>> The one that had you had the perfect one

up about the recipe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Go to the top one right there. So,

this one is called jerky recipe in the

subject. It's from December 21st, 2012.

It says, "Hi, Steve Hansen." No relation

on Jeffrey's Island is requesting the

latest beef jerky recipe as J has asked

her to try and make some. He says the

last batch that you made tasted

different and I think he I think he

likes it as he would like to attempt it.

Would it be possible to forward us the

recipe? Thank you, Steve. This is the

response. But I've now been told it is

the old way Francis was doing it he

likes best and not the latest batch. So

on LSJ is go on little St. James is

going to try and do it that way. I am in

Europe but with him on the island if you

need to call a liaz about getting

anything down. So obviously the the

number one point is they're not talking

about real jerky here. We know that it's

code for something. And when you go

through some of the other emails that

talk about how to refrigerate it, you

know, where to store it, how many pounds

it is and things like that, your brain

goes to some of that Peter Nygard type

world type.

>> Absolutely. Now, I I've seen these and I

have access to the, you know, the index

emails as well. It's it's and I try to

go through them when time allows, but

yeah, I would guess if I were a betting

man that they're not talking about

actual beef jerky, not known to be an

island treat. I mean, people eat a lot

of fish down in the islands, and I'm

sure other stuff, too. But, I mean, to

me, this is code for something more than

a fair is.

>> Now, the the survivor you spoke to, what

was her name again?

>> Juliet Bryant.

>> Julia Bryant. When she woke up on the

medical table at Zoro Ranch, which is

straight out of a horror movie, you said

that she doesn't know what happened, but

she has some theories about what could

have. What does she think?

>> She doesn't know. I mean, she she

doesn't have scars. She doesn't have,

you know, injuries that I'm aware of.

Um, but it was just, you know, so

startling to her to wake up in a in what

appeared to be a surgical suite of some

sort with people in scrubs and, you

know, this freaked her out. I don't

think she's completely processed this

except that she has the memory of this

happening and finally at some point got

out of the whole deal and you know was

talking about this and and not getting a

lot of reception from officials and you

know got a hold of a lawyer and got

involved in the the civil suit against

um against Epstein and was able to like

so many other survivors get a settlement

justly that has helped her in her life.

But she's still she's still very much

impacted by this. All these girls I mean

imagine

having to come to grips with this. First

of all, you try in some of these cases

they try to bury it, try to just deal

with it.

>> And then they decide, no, this is wrong

and I'm not alone. And they gather

together and some very dedicated lawyers

got involved here to go after this case.

And um

you know, thankfully they did get

settlements,

>> but that doesn't make you all better.

That doesn't make you whole. Yeah,

>> you know, to be treated like some sort

of cattle, you know, I mean, some some,

you know, a quantity

>> of of, you know, just a product.

>> That's I I don't even think he he viewed

them like that. I think it was even

lower than that. I think this was a

level of depravity that I have no

concept of. normal people luckily don't

have any concept of. But I I too did

just speak with a survivor recently and

that podcast is going to be coming out

soon. There's a couple of them because

we were here for a while. But you had

mentioned it maybe 10 minutes ago

talking about some of the tactics he

would use and and

the thing that blew me away when I was

speaking to this Epstein survivor about

his manipulation was how diabolical he

was in studying it. So when he would he

would traffic this woman who was barely

a woman, she was 20, 21 to other men in

Hollywood or other places mobiley,

meaning he wouldn't be going with her or

anything like that. He would just

traffic

>> her to them with the idea that, you

know, she was going to get raped.

>> And so she said that every time that she

went and did one of these things, he

would call her afterwards and he would

say like, "So did you hook up with him?"

which you know means rape by the way

obviously and

>> you know most of the time the answer was

no and regardless of whether the answer

was no or yes he would want to know the

details to a tea every time it was like

in a

>> it's like a serial killer

>> yes

>> you know it sounds the lamb stuff

>> yes it was and and in a sick parallel to

the real world

>> I was like oh my god this is like when

Bill Bich and Tom Brady watch tape of

defenses but he's watching

>> and he wants to know for his own, you

know, purient interest. You know, he

gets off on this obviously, but also to

realize what kind of power uh what kind

of manipulation does he now possess over

a a wealthy, powerful guy that he can

use to his advantage? What's the

blackmail?

>> Yes.

>> I hadn't even thought.

>> He's keeping notes.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, he wants to be able to say,

"Well, you know, how was your night with

whatever the code name is?

and he's got the response. And these

guys were talking about this in the

emails.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean,

up until 17, 18, right up until 19 when

he got popped, you know, the the the

Peter Adia, the doctor, Peter. Yeah.

>> Yeah. At

um

you know, did he take part in it? No,

apparently not. But he was talking about

it and he was chummy.

Chummy with a guy who is who is running

one of the biggest human trafficking

operations in the history of the world.

>> It's wild. Yeah. I I cuz again you got

to go double check everything on like

justice.gov when you see it on the

internet because people are just

floating all kinds of stuff like that.

>> I was certain when I saw those

screenshots the first time like oh well

those must be fake ones. And then I go

and look and I'm like, "Wow, he really

said this shit."

>> Yeah.

>> To this guy. And

>> and and and to, you know, I'm not

defending it, but I mean, obviously I

would like to think that he didn't know

the extent of this that he just thought

he was talking to a rich guy who was,

>> you know,

>> somebody he thought was kind of funny

and interesting

>> and and maybe he, you know, as a as a

medical guy and an influencer, maybe,

you know, he was targeted by Epstein,

too. right

>> now. You know, as you said, sometimes on

your stings, you do run into doctors and

lawyers. And I say that because these

are people of means, if you will.

>> A lot of times you don't. A lot of times

it's someone who's not of means. They're

all pedophiles. It's the same But

>> there is a

different scope. It's the same thing,

but there's a different scope through

which to look at it. To me, when you're

talking about people who are literal

masters of the universe and billionaires

and heads of state or heads of

bureaucracy or heads of academia or in

industry, whatever it may be, you know,

do you have a ton of experience ever

looking at things like that or is that

even kind of new to you?

>> Well, I think it's new to me in terms of

the the scope of the wealth and power

involved in the Epstein case. I mean, as

I mentioned, we did a big investigation

on Peter Nygard. There's a lot of money

involved there. A lot of corruption, a

lot of, you know, delivering cash and a

frozen fish to a government official. I

mean, you know, a lot of people looking

the other way. But in terms of the

predator investigations that we do, the

takedown investigations on True Blue,

you know, to me,

it's interesting when it's somebody of

wealth or power or character or

influence because you would think that

that person should know better. It's

it's it's

no more of a crime than when a a lineman

for the power company does it while

you're staying up in a hotel in in rural

Louisiana. I mean, it's it's the same

damage caused to a child.

>> So, I try to approach each of them the

same way. I mean, obviously, you know,

you've got a doctor who walks in after

seeing 18 patients and while he was

seeing 18 patients, took time to be

texting somebody who was a 15-year-old

girl, posing as a 15-y old girl, and

send a picture of his penis and and then

stop in his Range Rover to buy uh Oreos

and red wine because the girl had braces

and he had a fantasy about the Oreos

being in the braces. I mean, obviously

that adds layers of context to the

story. And it's a doctor who's taken the

hypocratic oath to cause no harm, and

he's there to sexually abuse a

15-year-old girl. And,

you know, yeah, I I think that makes for

a a more interesting story. Is it any

more dangerous than The Lineman? No.

Same same danger. And they both make the

movie. Nobody gets out of this. I don't,

>> you know, prioritize any of these cases

because of what they do for a living.

you know, my producer and my executive

producer sit down and we, you know, they

we put these we edit them and put them

out as they come.

>> Now, we may change them around for

whatever production or programming

reason, but everybody makes the movie.

>> Yeah. And I think on that level, you're

right.

>> I mean, everybody makes the movie.

Nobody gets out,

>> right?

>> Now, we may have guys who don't talk and

we may group them together, you know,

three in an episode because the

interviews are shorter for whatever

reason, but nobody, you know, nobody

gets out of this. who gets caught,

>> right? And again, like you're talking

about that range and people from way

different backgrounds or means and

things like that. And I agree,

there's a level though that you don't

get a chance to get

>> it makes headlines when it's a doctor. I

mean, you look at the New York Post

today, the day that we record this, and

there are two or three stories about

prominent men getting caught

getting child porn, CESAM. One is a

doctor in Michigan, another is a a

physician someplace else, but all

prominent people who are shockingly

engaging in the purchase and trafficking

of child porn

in one day.

>> In one day,

how what percentage do you think

actually get caught?

>> That's an excellent question.

Um,

and there's a theory that some of these

guys want to get caught.

And I've heard that in interviews over

the years. You know, I'm relieved. Now I

can get help. Now I can stop.

In terms of percentage, it'd be a wild

guess, but

based upon the activity on the internet,

I'd say maybe 20 30%.

>> That's actually higher than I thought

you were going to say. I mean, again,

I'm just giving you an educated guess. I

mean, maybe that's

>> overly optimistic because I want to

think that we catch more than we do, but

in terms of guys seeking children for

sex and actually,

you know, doing something to physically

do that, um, maybe 20 30%, but again,

it's it's a guess at best. Do you think

it for certainly not for everyone, but

do you think for some people this is

something that's curable or do you view

it as incurable across the board? They

have this feeling that's what it is. I I

think the vast majority of cases are

incurable, but I have seen, and we talk

about this on the Predators I've Caught

podcast, guys who, especially the

younger guys, who,

you know, did their punishment, whether

it's a, you know, a month in the county

jail or whatever it was, they registered

as a sex offender, they went to their

treatment, and now they're productive

members of society. It happens.

>> How do we know that? We we we know that

because they're closely monitored. We

know that because they have to report to

a probation officer. We know that

because they're registered. We know that

because we keep track of their

activities. So, is it 100%? No.

Absolutely not. But these guys are going

to work every day. They're doing a job.

They're not offending. They've gone to

therapy. They're young enough where they

can rewire their brains a little bit.

And people would argue with me that none

of these guys can be fixed. But I think

some of these guys act on impulses that,

you know, with some work and therapy and

and uh some monitoring, they can decide

they're not going to do it again

>> and discipline

>> and discipline

>> if they have it.

See, that would that's an interesting

word to use there because if if you say

discipline

the way maybe I'm taking it too

literally, but that would mean that they

have all those urges but they're

disciplined to just not act on them or

something which

>> and that's exactly what I'm getting at.

I get email. We have an email associated

with the podcast,

chrispredatorpodcast.com.

And I have gotten at least a dozen

over the five years we've done that

podcast

emails from men who say, "Look, I I

don't want to use my name or I don't

want to be identified, but I am telling

you that I've had these urges for as

long as I can remember. I go to therapy.

I'm in a uh a normal adult relationship

and I don't offend and I understand I

have these these urges and I can't tell

you exactly why but I do. I'm attracted

to younger girls and I don't offend and

you need to know that there are people

out there who are like me.

Now, have I verified everything in that

email as being true? No. But it it ring

it rings true to me that there are

people out there who are that way.

>> Maybe there's some of those people who

are telling the truth. Maybe some of the

other people fall in the category if

they want to get caught and this is how

they think they can do it to get their

attention by emailing Chris Hansen.

>> Yeah. Or they're jerking me around

>> or they're jerking around,

>> which is not out of the out of the

possibility either. You don't know. But

it's interesting that somebody would

take the time to give me details about

their life and if I wanted to find them,

I could find them.

>> Yeah. you know, and if I thought they

were a danger to society, I would turn

it over to law enforcement. I would I

would do everything I could to prevent

them from harming a child. I don't care.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, but if it's somebody being

honest who at least there's no

information that he's harmed a child,

then, you know, I'd like to hear about

it.

>> Do you ask them about ever converse with

them about where these urges come from?

I have not and I should.

>> Yeah, I I would

>> I mean I'm working on an episode that

involves this, but as you can imagine,

you know, it it it takes a bit of a leap

of faith on my part to to say, "Okay, is

this guy jerking me around?"

>> Right?

>> How am I sure he's not offended?

um they need to take a leap of faith and

say, "All right, I'm going to go

identify myself because I'm not going to

take just a fake name. I I need to know

I need to run a background check on

these guys, you know, and so it's kind

of gets stalled out in that that

mediation part of it." And then as

you're working on that, suddenly there's

five other interviews you have to do.

So,

>> it's it's important. I should do it and

and I will. Does it feel like sometimes

with all of the

awareness we have on just how widespread

a problem like this is, does it feel

like

you're swimming against the current?

Like it just gets worse despite all the

great work you've clearly done to to

help. Yeah, I try not to get overwhelmed

by it. You know, I I've at a stage in

life where I've been doing this long