Someone grabbed my chain and then I just

remember seeing knives.

A BBC live music event was ended early

last night. The rapper crept was

attacked backstage.

This was a millimeter deeper and it

would have been a different scenario.

He's a rapper and has collaborated with

the likes of anyone and Stormy.

[Applause]

[Music]

Conan's stepdad was killed.

Car ran out of the room trying to fight.

Two more gunshots. Everything silent.

We can either go and retaliate or we

take this music thing seriously.

Actually try to make it out of where

we're coming from. The next thing we put

out went viral. Skeptor reached out and

said, "Yo, we want to bring you guys on

tour." It was such a life-changing

moment for us. We started doing radio,

TV, and we started branching out.

Nala's baby full of natural goodness.

You would never put a rapper launching a

baby skincare line in the same sentence.

You should always feel uncomfortable.

Almost like you shouldn't be here and

that's the growth man. You can't be

afraid of that.

Do you know how what the company's

valued at? 17 and a half.

What do you think Blaine would think

another baby?

Cadet whose real name was Blaine Johnson

has died.

He was on the brink of doing something

great.

What's on your mind?

We've got this complex like I'm not

meant to cry. like it makes you feel

like less of a man or something. I swear

this scares me.

So, without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO.

I hope nobody's listening, but if you

are, then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

crept.

First of all, thank you for being here.

I think got got to be honest. I think

you're one of the the smartest looking

guests I've ever had sit in the chair.

I'm very jealous of your outfit today.

Thank you, man.

It's it's sick. And the design is a

friend of mine who um who I met in

Manchester a couple of couple of months

back. But where I wanted to start with

you is um back in South London, back in

Cuden. I want you to if you can give me

the context in which you were you were

raised. And when I say context, I mean

like what were those things in your

environment at an early age that

ultimately shaped who you were and left

those little kind of foot those

fingerprints on on your personality and

character? To be honest, like when I was

younger, when I was in school,

like all I knew and all my friendships

knew were, you know, gangs and, you

know, that kind of lifestyle. That's all

that we saw. like you know everybody

that I would go to school with or you

know outside of school that was that's

that's what it was and you know we got

caught up in a load of nonsense growing

up but I was one of those people that

always saw the bigger picture and I

always thought I don't want to end up

going to jail and I don't want to end up

dying because that's what I saw like I

I've lost so much friends due to, you

know, coming from where we're coming

from and like seeing friends that I've

I've grown up with pass away to to

violence or crimes or, you know,

friends. I've got loads of friends that

are in jail for life and some for even

things they didn't even do. So, I always

used to be like, you know, when when

when my friends was doing this or doing

that, I would always be like, you know,

I'm going to try and do this and try and

do that and because I do not want to end

up in jail or dying. Like that was, you

know, that's what we was used to. Like,

and it's sad because it's like it felt

so normal. Like the first time, you

know, I was like 13 and hearing gunshots

outside my house and coming out and

someone's on the floor dead and I'm a

13year-old young boy. And it it was like

it was normal. It wasn't even like

something that seemed abnormal at the

time. It just felt like this is how it

is when you live where you live or where

you're from, where you're from. And

that's what it was. Do you know what I

mean? And I feel like I've always always

had my eye on being more than that like

all the time. So when you know my

friends

was

getting involved in certain things, I

was like, you know, I'm going to I'm

going to finish college. I'm going to go

to university and I'm going to try my

best to keep myself, you know, on a

positive path. Like and I always thought

this all the time and I always said,

"Yeah, I'm not going to I'm not going to

fall into this trap because I'm seeing,

you know, my friends falling into I'm

seeing my friends going to jail. I'm

seeing my friends die." I'm like like,

"When is it?" And it's and it doesn't

end. It doesn't stop. You know, new

issues happen now. You know, you got a

problem with these people because of

this or like and it just it's a constant

cycle and I feel like I didn't want to

get trapped in that cycle. What

what was your family unit like? Um my my

mom and dad wasn't together. Um my

father went to jail for a lot of my

childhood.

Um and you know he so he wasn't around

for a lot of the important moments in my

life and that age where I feel like you

probably need you know a father figure

there. um he wasn't um because he was in

jail and you know again that's what I

was you know seeing and that was what

was a norm to me you know um growing up

my mom was single and it was she was

just you know doing her best to look

after me and my brother um and I feel

like she done an incredible job but

there was still I'll never forget there

was a moment where

something happened and police came to my

house and I'll never forget my mom said

I failed as a mom and

I can't explain how that made me feel

and I was like there's no way on earth

that I'm going to let those words even

become a reality. So I remember from

there I was like I am going to make this

woman proud like if it's my the last

thing I do and that was a really really

big you know motivational

moment for me.

Why you done matter so much to you?

Because my mom did everything she could

you know she tried her best as as a

single mom. She tried her best. She

always, you know, wanted the best for me

and wanted the best for my brother and,

you know, being a single mom, knowing

that there's bills and knowing that she

was stressed and this that and the

fourth, like I know she wanted the best

for me and me feeling like,

you know,

I haven't even tried to appreciate or

repay her for that. And her feeling like

a failure even though she done her

absolute best. So that resonated with me

and it really hit me when she said that

and yeah from I remember from then like

the motivation I had I was like I'm

going to cuz I I I didn't even want to

stay in uni or I didn't want to like I

was thinking that's long I don't want

and I was like no I'm going to go all

the way and I'm going to graduate. I'm

going to make her run and say my son's

got a degree I'm going to do that and

I'm going to do my music and I'm going

to be successful in that and she's going

to be proud. I spoke it and knew it was

going to happen because I was so

determined from from there to to make it

happen. So yeah,

often when you're from an environment

where people are being tempted to choose

a nefarious life, so when when they're

being tempted to choose a slightly you

maybe it's a criminal lifestyle or

something because they don't have the

same level of opportunities in that

environment. So often people look back

and they can almost see how it could

have gone another way for for them. How

they could have been tempted in that

other path because there's no doubt

temptation to choose another path would

have been present in that environment.

When you look back on on those times can

you can you see how things could have

gone another way? 100%. like there there

there was, you know, there was one

specific moment that um

I remember when it was when Conan had a

situation where his his stepdad was

killed and his mother was shot.

Can you tell me about that incident?

What you read about that in a song?

Yeah, a song called My Story. um where

Conan was um I think he was coming back

from radio and Conan

um

when Conan got back basically there was

people waiting for him and he was

walking to his door and he had his key

in his hand and he's always been a a

paranoid person so he'd always like

ready to put his key in and cuz like he

was always alert and he always he's just

an alert person. He's always alert on

point. And if this was probably anybody

else, they probably would have died. But

he was just by his door and then he

heard

people running behind and he just knew

straight away. He didn't look back. He

just put his key in the door, turn it,

open it, closed it. And then that's

when, you know, he realized like, okay,

someone is definitely here to try and

kill me. and they've got in the house um

and

they've basically when they're holding

the door upstairs

um they've shot through the door and one

of the the the bullets you know hit

Conan's mom and then Conan's stepdad at

the time ended up wrestling with them

and then he ended up getting shot

um and and dying and and um the guys

left. But you know it was that situation

that happened and as you can imagine

what that what effect or you know that

would have had on him and everybody

around him. So I remember we were

sitting in a car and our friends was

like look

we can either go and do this and and

retaliate or whatever whatever it was

and I remember there was that moment of

oh we we we

take this music thing seriously and you

know don't throw everything away right

now and actually try to make it out of

where, you know, we're coming from. And

it was that moment of like, we're going

to do the music. We're going to focus

and put our all into this and, you know,

see what happens. And that was like a

moment where that could have easily

gone a completely different way. Like we

literally had nothing. We was we I

remember we had an argument over the

last bit of chicken and chips because

that's the only money we had. like we

had nothing and Conan was homeless. Like

it was like probably the one of the

worst periods of our lives and

definitely Conan's for sure. Um and

I feel like

from there we done Otus which was like a

a cover of Jay-Z and Kanye's um song.

And that song went viral.

And it was like it was the perfect time

for something like that to happen

because we could have done that and not

done what we, you know, not done

anything and then we could have just,

you know, somehow slipped back into or

whatever. But it was literally from that

moment the next thing we put out,

bearing in mind we've been putting out

music, you know, and we've never had a

moment like that before. And the next

thing we put out after this disaster has

just happened. The next thing we put out

went viral and everything changed from

there. Literally, you know, we put this

out and then from there we ended up, you

know, Skeptor reached out and said, "Yo,

we want to bring you guys on tour." And

you know, for any musician when you go

on tour and do live music, it's like for

the first time, it makes you feel like

you're really a musician. Like I'm

really doing this for real. And that was

really like a a a special moment for us

that he's asked us to come on tour

during this period. We was we were so

new as artists. Skeptor didn't, you

know, we would have just done the tour

for free. He didn't even he didn't even

just have us on the tour supporting. He

paid us

like he paid us per show like and when I

mean we were so we was like we're going

to get paid to come on tour with you on

a tour that is already sold out. He

didn't need us there

and he had us on on the tour and paid us

as well. And it was just like such a

life-changing moment for us. Like, you

know, I I I I just feel like the the the

the stars aligned or something. But, you

know, being in that moment where you're

like about to throw everything away to

then you're on stage live with thousands

of people in front of you. Like from

that transition to that in in an

you know, you couldn't make that up.

like that was just it was just a crazy

time and I feel like yeah man I feel

like we obviously made you know the

right decision and

yeah we've never looked back since man

the person that um carried out that

attack um

did you ever find out why they did it

and did they get caught?

It's It's weird because we don't

actually We'll never know who who done

it because

You'll never know who done it.

No, because we There was two people

there.

All right.

Um and one person got arrested for it,

but at the end of the day, you still

don't know, you know, who done it

and they got sentenced.

Yeah, they got sentenced. I think they

got found with the weapon or something

like that. But um yeah, there was two.

So, we don't actually know

who's who's done it up until today.

We know a lot about mental health these

days. It's a more of a conversation now.

But how does, you know, you you're by

his side. How does Conan deal with that?

Both of his parents being shot, one of

them dying.

Conan is like

I it's one of those ones where I can't

even explain on his behalf because it's

not even something I can even comprehend

being in that situation. Um what what I

know he we have done is you know stayed

doing music and doing what we love and

actually growing in that world and

actually you know becoming someone from

doing what we love and you know the

success that it's brought and all of you

know the great things that have happened

and you know us just growing and growing

and growing. I feel like that has been a

major distraction from the harsh reality

of what's happened in in his life. Do

you know what I mean? And um I feel like

if we didn't,

you know, have the success we had, I

don't know what would have happened.

There it's interesting because I'm not

sure if success um success heals. Like

you use the word distraction. It's

actually the word that I would naturally

use. it kind of distracts you from the

pain and then what you tend to see when

I sit here with a lot of people is they

they still have to at some point address

that pain that pain

or alter alcohol or other things you

know

um and we see see that a lot with

musicians especially you know

so that's kind of what I'm getting to

you've been through the same you've been

through the same hurt and you've lost

people in your life as well so you can

kind of speak to that as opposed to

speaking to Conan situation but how

especially in like in that culture in

like the black culture and especially

black men they don't talk about mental

health.

Really? Especially 10 years ago. No

[ __ ] chance.

No, definitely not. It's like

we've got this, I don't know, complex or

we've got this thing where we're like,

"No, we're all right." Like, I can get

through it. Like, I'm not meant to cry.

And I don't know why or how or why we've

been conditioned in this way. But we

have and we feel like, you know, we

don't need to talk to anybody about

feeling down. Like it makes you feel

like less of a man or something. I'm not

sure what it is, but you know, it it's

definitely something that's important to

me because like my one of my best

friends committed suicide and

I have no idea why up until today.

So, you're talking about Nash.

Nash. Yeah. M

and I I don't know why. Like the last

time I was with him, we were celebrating

that we just finished the shop.

Like, bro, we did it. And he was like, I

can't believe we've done it. We've done

it. And he was so happy. And then he was

showing me like, "Look at the emails I'm

getting from people like that showing

interest." And he was so excited about

it. But then a few days later, he jumped

in front of a train.

Like

what was what did I miss? I was with

him, spoke to him all the time like and

it was just it was like and we're like

this and he didn't not once express or

make me feel that he was depressed or

going through something mentally like I

didn't know and I'm with him every day.

I didn't see it. So that's how I know

how important it is, you know, for us as

men and black men to, you know, really

not, you know, hide and cover and in our

in our feelings and our emotions. And

there's nothing wrong with

talking about it or telling someone or

going to therapy. Like there's nothing

wrong with that. I feel like I don't

know why. I don't know why, but that

situation made me realize how bad it is

because I genuinely didn't see anything

wrong with him. Like, we're speaking all

the time. He's updating me. Look, this

has just happened. I'm going here. I'm

going there. I'm doing this. Like, oh,

this has just come to the shop. Got this

order. Like, we're like, you know, and

then we celebrated the fact that we

finished the shop and it was built. So

for context here, you this is when you

launched um Creps and Cones.

Yes. So before launching Creps and

Cones, Nash was the person that was

going to run it and manage the store.

And

for anybody that doesn't know, so I kind

of heard the story that someone a fan

had tweeted you guys one day about how

funny it would be or something that if

you opened a restaurant called Creps and

Cones.

Yeah. Um

you trademarked it or

Yeah. No, I basically I I can't

remember. I had a conversation with

someone one time and and like I remember

the the name came into my head and then

I just tweeted one time.

I tweeted in 2014. I said, "One day

we're going to have a restaurant called

Creps and Cones."

And I just thought it was a sick idea,

sick name, sick play for the name. But

in 2014, I never had anything. So, it

was it was it was just what it was a

really big just putting it out there. By

the way, one day, I don't know if this

ever going to happen cuz, you know, I'm

not in a position to make this happen,

but I feel like I will be one day. And I

just put out the tweet and then I saw

people like, "Oh, that would be sick.

That would be sick." Loads of retweets.

Oh, that would be sick. And then it was

like, "Okay, one day." Like, "We'll

revisit that conversation."

And then, um,

did you trademark it?

I didn't. You know,

that's nice.

I didn't. I did. No one did. Luckily, we

trademarked it a bit later down, but

we we didn't even I don't think I could

afford to trademark it at the time.

Like, I I don't even think I could have

afforded to at the time when I when I

tweeted it. But I remember um speaking

to Nash about it and saying, "Yeah, one

day like, you know, I'm this is what we

we need to do this one day." And he was

like, "That'll be sick. That would be

sick." But he was working in property

and he was doing really well doing what

he was doing. And I remember he called

me and he was like, I want to I want to,

you know, it's time for change, man. I

want to do something else. Um, what

about the idea that you were saying, the

creps and cones thing? And I was like,

yeah, let's do it. And this was at a

time when I I I could do it. And, you

know, and Conan was like, "Yeah, let's

like he he he already kn it was

something that we wanted to do. Do you

know what I mean?" So,

um, it was just like, who are we going

to get to lead this for us? Because

obviously we're musicians. We need

someone that, you know, and when Nash

broke down, you know, everything that he

had been research and learned and, you

know, people that he was going to get

involved to be a part of it and this,

that, and the fourth, it was just like,

this makes sense. Let's do it. And

there's no better person to do it with

than one of our best friends. Do you

know what I mean? And so, we decided,

yeah, we're going to do it. Um, and

yeah, that was a

nightmare in itself. Like, you know,

just building a shop, like having

builders going missing or, you know,

people trying to be middlemen skimming

off the top and this that and the fourth

and

taking advantage of you cuz you're

musicians as well, right?

Yes. So, we probably ended up spending

triple what we should have spent on

building it. Um, and it took like a

year. Like when I mean me and Nash was

probably sleeping in that shop. There

was days we had we did sleep in the shop

cuz we you know we had to deliveries and

the next day and you know we need to get

this done and you know we need to do

that or do this and and then we we

didn't trust any builders. We didn't

trust anyone. So we had to be there

while they was doing it to make sure

they're doing it in the way that we told

them they're going to do it. You know

cuz we leave them they come back and

then something's not done or and it's

like what have you been doing in the

last week? And it was and it was just it

was a it was a probably just the worst

like you know experience in terms of our

intro into this business world. I hated

it. Like I was I'm not going to sit here

and say like yeah it was great and it

was it wasn't I hated it. I put my back

up and it was like okay I don't I don't

I know stepping into this world I'm not

going to trust anyone now. And that

really that restaurant really changed me

as a a businessman. really changed me as

a as a the way I think and you know the

way I approach things and

in terms of like

before if somebody would come to me and

say this is how much this costs to do

this I would probably be like okay

sounds reasonable let's do it now I'm

going to ask 10 other people and get

other people to ask another 10 other

people and gauge if this makes sense and

this is the right thing to do or not or

I'm getting the best value for money

before I wouldn't do

And I do that with everything. It's like

I'm I'm I'm double-checking everything,

every aspect. Is this the best kind of

thing to do? Or is there a way I can do

this in a better way for the same price?

And it's just made me like that. And it

I feel like it's turned me into a bit of

a monster. Not a monster, but like I'm

just really not the same person I was

when I was making, you know, creps and

cones.

That's what adversity does, though. you

you build a callous and that becomes

like self-defense, right? So, more than

anything, you want people to know that

you're going to ask those 10 questions

before they even come to you because

then they won't they won't try it. So,

you're playing self-defense, which is

what I do as well. It's like if you know

I'm going to ask 10 questions, you're

not going to give me the the bad price

the first time you come up cuz you know,

every time I interrogate it, even if I

end up saying yes, I'm going to ask you

all kinds of [ __ ] Yeah, I get that a

lot now like from from people that I use

and work with and they're like, "Ah,

here he goes again on these tangents and

asking 101 questions and I'm like double

checking everything." And

but that comes from experience of

Yes.

being burnt.

Being burnt. Yeah. And we felt like we

was burnt really badly on on creps and

cones.

What did it teach you about business?

Cuz that was your first real like foray

into business. I mean, you had like the

apparel brand before then. Yeah, we done

we done we sold like a lot of merch

which done which done that was what

actually helped us make the money to

invest in our music. So the do selling

the you know the apparel the merch and

stuff like that that's what we actually

ended up getting money from to invest

and do music videos and do that

independently. But what that that cuz

that experience setting up a restaurant

I mean I used to work in a restaurant

when I was in my mom's restaurant when I

was young when I was seven 8 n 10 11 12

the chaos of customers and complain

chaotic like it that that cuz people

someone said to me when I was like I'm

doing a restaurant it was like that's

like the hardest business to get into

why are you doing that money and I was

like really like I didn't

and then it it became extremely harder

for us because you know Nash was our guy

and you know us having Nash getting a

staff, hiring everybody, dealing with

everything, accounts, this that and the

fourth and he was our guy leading this

and then the week where

launching on the Saturday that earlier

on in that week he commit suicide.

Take me back to when you found out that

that that had happened.

It was I think it was like someone was

coming to the shop to do something. I I

can't remember what what it was, but I

was due an update from Nash on something

to do with the the shop and um

didn't hear from him the whole day. And

I was like, "This is odd." Cuz he would

usually update us on everything like,

"Oh, this has happened." And he was so

excited like, "Oh, imagine this has

happened. I found the sickest bartender.

Oh my god, I found the sickest chef.

Look look." And and it it was just like

loads of that usually. and we're a week

away from, you know, launching. We

couldn't hear from him the whole day.

And we was like,

where where is Nash? Like, why have you

got through to him? And we're asking

like, what's going on? And, you know,

we're messaging him, trying to call him.

Um and then

um

we were when we was at the restaurant

um yeah I got a call and someone was

like

it's Nash

and

he's dead and I was like

and it was like he jumped in front of a

train.

Like I'm even more confused because one

of the last interactions we had, we was

walking across the road and I remember

the bus was coming and he grabbed me and

was like, "Get out the road." Like what

are you doing?

Like and he's like and I remember him

going, "Bro, don't do that to me. You

scared me." Like that kind of thing.

Like the bus was coming and he grabbed

like it was a moment of, "Oh, the bus

was coming." Like straight away I I was

thinking about I was like that there's

no way he did that because I remember

like why would he do that? How what was

wrong? Why didn't we see it? Like there

was so much questions

like and I just remember breaking down

outside Notting Hill like tears crying.

I was like there's no way this is real.

And then we was going to just cancel the

the launch and then

someone close to him was like he

wouldn't want you to do that. And we

made a decision and said, "You know

what? We're just going to do it." Um, we

ended up having to find, you know, all

the people, the stuff people that he was

contacting and try and get hold of them

to keep this thing going for launch. Um,

and I managed to kind of get majority

but not everybody or everything in in

line that he had prepared. We're

grieving

and we're launching

and we don't know what we're doing at

the all at the same time. So, and the

day it's launch day, you know, we've got

the mayor of Cuden coming out cutting

the ribbon at the shop. And the whole

time I'm thinking about Nash. Like Nash

should be here. We're taking a picture.

Nash should be in this picture.

Like when we open these doors, I don't

even know what's going on. So people

thought we was there because of PR and

we're in a restaurant serving people,

doing this, doing that. No, we wasn't. I

wasn't in there because of PR. I was in

there because I had to be in there. Had

to work in there. I had to. Like I was

literally working in that restaurant,

you know, cleaning toilets, what you

name it, I was doing everything, you

know, and people thought it was a PR

thing and was doing it for PR and it

genuinely wasn't. Like I didn't know

what I was doing and it was it was

scary, man. Like it was like we've

literally just launched this massive

thing. The queue is from here till the

end of the road. Like I've never seen

anything like it. The queue was so long

and it's like all these people are

coming to eat here. Oh my god. and you

know we're going through this and you

know it was it was it was like a

bittersweet but mainly bitter because

you know it was you know in the

restaurant world you're dealing with

people's emotions. You're not dealing

with your forget your emotions. You got

to deal with the staff's emotions.

You've got to deal with the customer's

emotions. If your chef is not in a good

mood today,

he's now going to burn this rice or he's

going to do something maybe out of

character or or something. Um, and so

I've got to rely on my chef's emotions

every single day, even if he's going

through his own issues or and it's not

just one chef, there's two, three, four.

Then, you know, if your your main bar

person, it's a Saturday busy night,

decides I'm not turning up for work

because they've had an argument with

their partner or whatever it is, what do

what do I do? So, this whole business is

relying on other people's emotions. And

even the customers, the customers come

in, they're not in a good mood. They're

already just, I'm not in a good mood. I

want my food and I want it in 5 minutes.

And if I get it in 7 minutes, I'm

kicking off. but just just because

they're in that mood. So you you're

constantly dealing with emotions and

people's feelings every single day. And

for you to get that right every single

day and everybody's emotions be great

and everyone's in a great like

Well, you're still dealing with your

own, right?

And we're grieving.

Do you know what I mean? And I remember

COVID happened and then it was just like

this just gets even worse. And our our

restaurant was, you know, it was about

coming in there and vibes and

experienced music, drinks, this that and

the fourth and that was what it was. So

it wasn't like takeaways

like you know everyone's like yeah just

adapt and do takeaways. Yeah, that's

fine. But our whole business was built

on vibes and we do we did like Sunday

events and we like it was really an

inperson like that's what we created.

But the restaurant done so well it

managed to you know survive throughout

the co stuff but

then we was not going to reopen because

of the stress and what it was doing to

us mentally. I didn't care about the

money. You know, people, you're sitting

on a gold mine. You get this right. You

just to get it right and you know, you

can. And I was like, I hear you. Sounds

great. I can't deal with it. Like, it's

too much stress there. Like, I was in

there every day. I was losing weight. I

was I was drained, tired, you know? I

remember a guy came in and stole

everything because he pretended to be a

friend of ours. and the staff that was

working there or the cleaner believed

him and was like, "Yeah, your friend

came in and took all the iPads and all

the the the equipment." And I was like,

"What? What? Why? Why would you what are

you talking about?" And then gone in

there, there's nothing that they've

taken all the stock. It's that like what

is going on? Like this is this is crazy.

I can't deal with this. And it was just

like I'm not I don't care what potential

this has. I'm not doing it. And then um

my my friend

bouncer introduced me to some guys and

said, "Look, these are some really good

guys. You know, they've got these

successful restaurants. They run it

amazingly and this that and the fourth

and, you know, they're interested in

partnering up with you guys to just, you

know, make this work because, you know,

you you clearly got something here." And

these guys came and they said, "Look, we

we we'll deal with that. We'll take away

all the headache. Let's let's let's make

it work, man. we, you know, we seeing,

we see this being big. We feel like we

can franchise it. We feel like we can do

this, that, and the fourth. I was like,

"Cool, let's do it. Let's give it

another shot." Um Um as long as, you

know, I don't have to bear that that the

brutal reality of, you know,

running a business,

running a restaurant.

Have you ever Have you ever um Have you

ever like truly taken time to because

you use the word grief, we were

grieving. What does that actually look

like when you say we were grieving?

Because from what from what I'm guessing

it and from my assumption of hearing the

story, it seems like your version of

grieving has always been to just kind of

distract yourself.

That is literally what I do. And I just

feel like and I don't know if I feel

like I'm scared to

stop

and take everything in. So I've always

just keep going. I'm just like, "Oh,

that's happened. Got to keep going." cuz

if I stop and and I don't know if that's

a recipe for disaster or not. I'm still

waiting to find out. I don't know. When

when Nash passed, it was like I felt

like, okay, I've got to make this work

now. I've got to make creps and cones

work because what this this like he done

so much and we spoke about so much and

you know this can't just die in vain. I

feel like through the stress that was

one thing that made me just feel like

you know I'm just going to you know I'm

just going to do with it. I'm just going

to deal with it. It was only being

forced by co to stop everything where I

sat down and was like this

do I want to start this [ __ ] again?

Yeah. Do I want to do this again?

Do you know what I mean? But what kept

me going was that and yeah. How are you

feeling though when because again you

know you keep yourself busy you keep

yourself distracted but what's going on

behind the mask like underneath the hood

everyone on the surface you know you're

keeping up appearances to keep things

the ship moving but how are you actually

feeling like when you go home at night

and when you do have those moments to

yourself in the car like how are you

feeling

believe it or not I don't really have

their moments like I literally will be

trying to do something until I'm tired

and go to sleep, wake up and continue

doing it again. Like I I don't feel like

I've sat down and taken in everything

that's happened. I don't think I have.

And I swear this scares me because

I'm like, you're taking in so much.

You're taking on so much. And all I do

is just, you know, keep working. I keep

doing this or keep doing that. But then

I feel like, you know, I've got a lot of

positive, you know, even I don't want to

even call it distractions because it's

my life. So I'm not really being

distracted because this is my life and

this is what comes with it and this is

what I'm doing and this is what I love

doing and I'm doing that. But at the

same time, I'm dealing with a lot of

grief, like a lot of it. And I haven't

sat down and, you know, taken it all in

and said like,

"Wow, like how am I feeling?" Because

I'm always just trying to

distract myself, I guess. But have you

ever seen moments where that grief or

that all the things you have been

dealing with have

caused your behavior to change in an

unpleasant way? That sometimes is one of

the like the indicators that there's

something there's something underneath

going on. Kind of like what you said

about yourself just you know there's

when you're dealing with things maybe

the first thing that might go I mean

some people start self-medicating with

alcohol or whatever it might be but then

other people you just see changes in

their behavior. They might get a bit

more angry. They might be a bit more

cold, a bit more distant, a bit you know

what I mean. Have you ever have you ever

seen any of those symptoms in yourself

because of the grief?

Yeah, I think cold.

Um,

and I feel like I've dealt with so much.

I'm not dealing with this.

And I feel like so when something

happens where I feel like I'm not

dealing with it, I'll just switch off.

Are you thinking about like

relationships? What are you thinking?

Friendships,

whatever it is, like it's not, you know,

whether it's business, whether it's

making a decision that you might not

have made before. I felt like, you know,

I might have been too nice here or been

too nice there. And just everything's

just made me feel like, you know, I've

been through a a lot more. I'm not going

to make you add to my stress or make

this add to my stress. So, I'm really

quick to just dismiss things or, you

know, and I feel like I I become a

little bit more cold to it because I'm

just like, I'm not going to deal with

that. I'm not going to. It's It's almost

like I'm protecting myself from feeling

any more hurt

or emotion.

That's one strategy, isn't it? Just to

numb life.

Yeah. It's just like I'm like, "Oh,

negative vibes.

Oh, this is no no

no. I'm just like this." And I feel

like,

you know, anything that I feel is

remotely negative, I'm just like, I'm

out.

That is probably a good short-term

strategy in some situations, but over

the long term, again, there there's

probably probably a cost, especially now

that you're a father, right? Yeah.

And one of the things you're trying to

instill into your own child is probably

like

emotions and understanding your emotions

and that it's okay to feel and and even

go the other place I, you know, I think

people often see it is in their like

romantic relationships

when you're in cuz men and women have a

different uh way about them emotionally.

Yeah, definitely.

Typically, right? And so um women are

typically more in touch with their

emotions and men are typically less in

touch with their emotions. At least

that's a a broad sort of stereotype. So

sometimes can make it difficult when a

man has like numbed himself to deal with

stuff to then be able to emotionally

connect with some a woman in the way

that I'm talking about myself as well

here

that she she she needs in order for you

to speak the same language if you know

what I mean.

Yeah. when your when your music career

started taking off and all these crazy

things start happening. Um, in your own

estimation, what was the moment where

you go that was everything really really

changed when we dropped that?

Um, everything really really changed.

Otis was like a partial change.

That was like this the first liftoff.

That was the first liftoff, but it was

like, okay, what's next then?

Yeah.

And then the next

big moment that we had was when we

released our project called Young Kings.

M

it was like a independent mixtape

that we done.

Um and we got a Guinness World Record

for it for being the highest independent

charting album.

18th or something wasn't it?

Yeah, it's like 18 years like top 20. It

was like and that was before streaming.

Crazy. So that was just you know based

on physical people buying it and you

know that was a real like wo moment for

us because just before that like that

period after Otus and before Young Kings

we was dealing with so much rejection

like in terms not even just rejection

but

you know people saying oh maybe you

should put a a girl in your group and

you can be like endubs and maybe that

might work out for you or have you tried

the ant and deck thing like just being

comedians or

like it was bare of like just loads of

people,

you know, just giving us their

projections of what they think we should

be. And it just felt like they wanted to

just chew us and spit us out kind of

thing. And and that's what it felt like.

And

you know, we started then trying to make

records to please what the radio wanted

or, you know, what we felt would have

got on TV. And then

we sat down. I remember we sat down with

Skeptor. Big up Skeptor again. We sat

down with Skeptor and we was like,

"Yeah, man. Like like the labels, man.

They're not they're trying to make us do

this or they want this kind of sound."

And I remember Skeptor said just sat

Skeptor and Jammer. They was in Skept's

house and he was like, "Forget

radio, forget TV, forget record labels.

Just do you. do whatever it is that you

want to do. There's independent plugers

that will plug you to radio themsel. You

don't need a label to get do all of

these things. Just do it yourself. Put

it out yourself. Like don't watch and

then they're going to come to you. I'll

never forget he said he said they're

going to start coming to you. That was

like a really important moment for us

where

we released our project and the music

that we made was just like what we

wanted to make and you know we made

Don't Waste My Time.

And when we made Don't Waste My Time, it

was like it was purposely made to be

like,

"Yeah, we don't care what anyone has to

say. This is the music we want to make

or we're going to say what we want to

say on the song and you lot can't tell

us anything." I'll never forget when we

put it out, it just went crazy. Like the

song started going everywhere performing

it. Then we, you know, the song ended up

on um Creed the movie and like, you

know, out to Bellow's entrance song.

Like it was a massive moment in Creed

and it was like we've done all of this

with a song that we knew like we we just

thought this is this is what we want to

do.

Don't waste my time.

Yeah. Don't don't waste my time. And we

was just like

yeah like and then as Skeptor said

everyone were running to you now.

Everyone was like oh my god want to sign

record labels left right center. Oh my

god. Like throw a checkbook. So yeah we

want you. We want you. And then it just

really was like a it was like a really

360 and and then we started doing radio

and you know TV and we started you know

really branching out and people always

like how did you get into that? But the

reason why we how is because we always

overd deliver on little opportunities.

So, we got a radio opportunity to do to

to with Apple to do a show that they've

been doing with everyone. So, not

everyone, but like a selective few of

artists. Everybody gets I think like six

episodes. Um, and then they move on to

the next artist. We ended up on episode

36 or something. But it was because we

was like, we got this opportunity. We

know how everybody else has done these

shows and what they're expecting, which

is they're not expecting much from us.

But what if we make this a sick show?

What if we go out of our way, bring

other guests on, have games, let's do

fun, let's do fun things, let's make

this entertaining, and actually make

this show a good show. And

that's what we did. So, our show was

nothing like what they expected. We went

above and beyond. We had everybody

coming on our show from Americans to

Swiss French to you know the Daves to AJ

Tra like everybody's come on our show

and we didn't have to do that. We didn't

get any extra to do it. We just said

we're going to, you know, take this

opportunity and make the most of it. And

from that, you know, they kept offering

us more shows and more shows and more

shows. And then someone, you know,

brought up the the TV show, the rap

game, and said like, "Who do you think?"

And because of our radio show and like

they was like, "No, these guys would be

great for this." That opportunity came

to us and someone recommended us to do

the rap game. And then we ended up in

TV. But that was all because we just put

that extra bit of effort in a small

opportunity. And I feel like a lot of

people, you know, don't even think like

that. Like some people think there's an

opportunity here.

This is what's expected of me. This is

what I'm going to do. And I just don't I

just don't live by that. And Conan, we

don't live by that because I feel like

if you overd deliver and show what you

actually can do in any situation, what

can come from that is going to be a lot

more. And it's always worked. It's so

true that you can take a when someone

presents you with an opportunity,

they're actually it's almost like

they're actually what you see there.

Some people will see an opportunity.

What you're actually if you look behind

the opportunity is a set of dominoes.

Yes. That if you flick the first domino

and you succeed in the first

opportunity, there's this cascading set

of opportunities that arise from it. But

if you don't do a good job on that first

domino, hitting that first domino hard

enough, you'll never start the sort of,

you know, the knock-on effect. And I see

that in everything that I've done, even

becoming a dragon or, you know, cuz it's

very easy when you become a dragon just

to fall in, just to fall in line, right?

Just to sit there.

Yeah.

But for me, it was like, here's an

opportunity for me to really try and

express myself.

Exact. And and I noticed that when I

watch it, I'm just like, I'm so glad

he's just being him and saying like what

he truly feels and not just

like it's sick to see. Do you know what

I'm saying? Cuz it's funny cuz I it

wasn't I'm not saying I'm not saying it

was a maybe it was a little bit

conscious, but my thinking is look I'm

going to I I can get kicked off the

shirt anytime. I might as well like do

it my way and have a bit of fun with it

and at least like leave a mark because

the dragons in the past that I've like

resonated less with are those that

didn't show the full side of their

personality and acted too much like a

dragon. And acting like a dragon to me

is it is like sitting there and just

like I'm out. Like I like your business.

That's good. I'm going to invest. So for

me it's like well in reality my

personality is a bit more diverse than

that. So

exactly. So people watching that will

see like there's more to him than this

whole dragons thing. And then you know

other opportunities are going to

and they have. It's crazy. It's mad.

And I I I swear I live by that. I

genuinely do. I feel like

don't see something as for what it is on

on on the surface on face value. Just

there's a lot more that can come from

this if you really just put in a bit

more effort. money. Money starts coming

in for you in your life. People don't

teach us anything about money. I mean,

you did go to university for accounting,

so I thought maybe you had a bit of an

advantage there, but I I don't don't

even know if that's true. I just I just

saw it in your uh your CV and thought,

"Oh, maybe that helped him." But money

coming in, nobody teaches us what to do

with it. Especially in I think I got to

say, I think in the in the like hip-hop

community, there's a lot of narrative

around like go and get the go and get

that car or go get buy this watch or go

buy this shiny thing. And I also think

that sets us back as well. That's

something that's I've always in more

recent times when I've started to

understand money and how it works. And

I've met billionaires and I've met

people that literally their careers are

just playing money games where they

understand how to get this money and and

double it and they have all and they

also have access. So they get the deals

first. If Airbnb is going go into the

stock market, they'll get a 50%

discount. It goes public the next day.

They sell the next day and they make

double their money.

So it's access, but it's information.

And I just feel like, you know, we a lot

of people have been deprived of that

information. So when you start getting

money in your life, what's your

relationship?

I agree 100%. Because there's things

that I just found out about that I just

didn't know existed. And it's like, why

don't we know this, you know? Um, but

like I feel like it starts from

school. I feel like there should be a

class in school that teaches you on

this. like just things like credit.

There was something at uh uni was like

you get some £750 overdraft thing or

whatever

and then I was £750. Yeah, I do that.

Yeah. Like oh great. And then they're

chasing. What are they going to do?

They're not going to do anything. I'm

not going to jail. Like and then but

like it was just not knowing that this

stuff actually

matters affects you for years to come.

And it's like you don't know just either

paying fines or whatever it is like

there's things that you know this if you

don't do this or you don't pay this or

it's going to affect you in the long

run.

And I just never knew and I'm someone

that would if I knew I heard it once

that's it never going to

I never knew. My first car was a Range

Rover Sport and it was they wouldn't let

me put it in my name. So I I my business

partner had cuz he had credit. He put it

in his name and then so I was driving

around in this Range Rover Sport living

in a sevenbedroom house with a tennis

court and my I honestly they wouldn't

lend me 200 quid

cuz I destroyed it when I went to uni. I

dropped out of uni straight away. But

I'd gone and I'd got these overdrafts. I

just blown

the overdraft. It's like they set you up

for it. Like I swear to you, it's like

it's like cuz I know so much people

that's gone down that same university

path of they offer you this big shiny

£750 like that you don't have to pay

back interest free. You do have to pay

it back.

But but you have to pay it back. But

like the way they coat it is in like you

know it's a trap that we fall into

because we don't know the consequence of

if you don't do this then this happens.

And I just feel like it stems from us. I

feel like this being something that we

should learn

in school like you know before we start

taking credit out and start doing things

that affect our credit we should be

learning about it. But there's nothing

that you know really teaches you that in

school like and you know all my peers or

my friends and none of us knew nothing

about credit. And I just think why why

is it like so hidden or why is it not

really projected? Is it a parent's role

to tell them about credit and you know I

feel like it now it is cuz it's probably

become a lot more of a thing nowadays.

But yeah, and and just things like, you

know, when you you you end up in this

world of business and you know, there's

things that you find out about, you

know, like EIS, SEIS,

and stuff like that. And I just I just

couldn't believe this stuff existed. And

it was like yeah when you you know if

you you know I've got someone

Jason um who invested in creps and cones

and stuff like that and you know had no

idea about EIS and SIS and that he could

get you know a percentage of his

investment back and you know from tax

that he's previous and it's just like

what why don't we know about this like

why is this

you know there there's so much like even

research and development you know you

being able to claim money back from that

And it's like a lot of people have

probably watching this have no idea what

I'm talking about. And it's just like

why

why don't why why is this stuff not

normalized or people knowing about this

stuff? because there's so much ways to

do things you know and there's so much

different methods of supporting you know

you doing startups or investing or

there's so much things to you know

relieve the intense you know amount of

money you might end up spending to make

that a little bit better or you not

having to spend as much or you being

able to claim this back is it's crazy

and I just feel like it's proper hidden

and as you as you you know you get

further and further into a a different

world. You you find out about a lot of

things that you didn't know about

before.

When you first started getting money,

what were you spending it on?

Um when I first first got I think the

first thing I probably bought was a car.

Like you good with money back then?

Back then I I wasn't bad with money.

Like I wasn't bad with money. I

I always thought I want to, you know,

there's there's nice things that I

really really want to get. like I wanted

a a nice car and this that and the

fourth, but I I wasn't really like over

crazy going crazy with money. I haven't

been like that. Um I feel like I've

always been, you know, good at managing

money, putting money aside, budgeting

money. I feel like I'm really really

good at that. What advice would you give

to people then that are young,

especially young people that are, you

know, about to embark on their own

career and that might, if they're lucky,

come into money? What advice would you

give them?

Um, you know, try not to upgrade your

actual lifestyle as much as you feel

like you should straight away. Because

the thing about money is it's it's not

even the short term of it. It's the long

term of living costs and that lifestyle

that maintaining that is expensive

because, you know, you might think,

yeah, I've got X amount of money. I'll

go buy this. I still got that. It's not.

Cuz over time, you got to keep spending

that money. These bills are going to

keep rolling in. You got to keep paying

for this car. You got to keep paying for

this house. You got to keep paying for

all these bills. You got to keep you

want to go out and have fun on holiday.

you want to this is, you know, so my

thing is is if you do get more more

money, try to keep the same lifestyle as

much as close as to what you was already

living, you know, because it's it's the

silent direct debits and the silent

non-stop bills and the silent favors

here and there and the silent holiday.

It's that is the silent killer is of of

what happens to people, the lifestyle.

Do you think that like hip-hop culture

is guilty of of

encouraging people though to upgrade?

It is.

You know what I mean? Cuz I think most

of my when I think about why I was

buying bottles of Don Peron in

nightclubs the minute I got money, it's

definitely because of music videos. You

know what I mean?

No, there there there is um but then

and cuz I was insecure. So it's a

combination of the both. It was like

you're insecure cuz you were broke and

you were the only black kid in an all

white school and you always wanted to be

have validation. Look at 50 Cent over

here with these bottles. He looks like

he's validated. So,

yeah. No, I feel I feel like it is.

And the And the clubs know what they're

doing as well. Like Like I don't know if

you ever noticed, but in the club, they

always make it look like people's

ordering more bottles than they

fake bottles. They put them back in the

back of the room.

Yeah. But to a person that's just in

there, they're like, "Oh, it looks like

he's just done. I need to It needs to

Yeah. And then it's just like it's just

this culture of them just taking your

money." The thing is, you know, they put

gambling shops do best in areas where

people don't have money because people

are in those areas. That's why if you go

into a more sort of deprived area,

you'll see multiple gambling shops

because they they know that people in

those areas to them money means so much

more and it's a real get out. So,

they're much more susceptible, I

believe, to gambling addictions and to

being reckless with their money because

if I can bet 50 quid and get 500, that

changes my life. Whereas if you you're

not going to see gambling shops in rich

areas because they're not they they a

might have the information to understand

the actual odds but b um they don't a

big bet isn't going to change their life

in the same fundamental way. They have

the same money insecurities. And I think

this is part of the problem within

within the like the like hip-hop culture

which is a lot of people are starting

out without it. So they have those

insecurities about money and money is

probably the reason for a lot of pain in

their home. It's probably the reason

they saw their mom and dad arguing. they

saw a lot of pain around money in their

home. Um, and so they always they always

felt that it could fill that void. And

then when they get a little bit of it,

they're so much more intent and

compelled to signal to everybody else

that they got it

by making reckless money decisions. And

that's this kind of perpetual cycle cuz

then people are looking up at them and

going, "Okay, when I get it, I'm buy the

bottles of Don Perry on and I'm going to

Yeah. and and and and it's like it's one

of those ones where it's like you can't

even really help because you you know we

can make you know all of these decisions

and that show them like look you can do

these and you know invest your money and

do this do that and forth but to someone

who is coming from nothing that has just

got this big fat check from a record

label you're going to tell me not to go

and buy a watch or not to buy a chain

and match everybody else that's

you know that you know everybody all the

girls love and this that or whatever it

is that the reason their reason for

feeling they need these things or these

items

like how do you tell them no don't do

that do this

well I think it's I think part of it is

people like you who've been through that

who they can who they trust cuz if

someone else says it they ain't going to

listen if their mom or dad says it who

ain't been through that process who

ain't made the mistake says that they

listen

I can't tell you the amount of times

I've spoken to like young artists and

said don't go and just splash your money

or don't you don't need to go and buy

these things or buy that or you don't

need to do it. And they're like, "Yeah,

but I I need the chain at least." Like

even maybe if it's just a chain or I

need something to look like a rapper.

That's what I'm saying. So it's like

self-fulfilling. It's a cycle cuz

they're going, "Well, if I don't get the

chain, then I'm not that rapper who I

want to be someday." So, if that rapper

that they wanted to be someday was

talking about investing and starting

companies and and all that stuff, they

might be saying, "Man, I need to invest

this money in the stock market or I need

to buy a property because skepters just

bought." You know what I'm saying?

But the the issue is is, you know,

they they they need to understand that

that is a a longer game and it's more

about the future. But as a rapper that

might blow up now,

they're going to get these bookings and

be on these television programs and be

in these clubs and be in these parties

with the artists that are shining that

have the good watch on that has this

there are going to be around that. So

that's immediate,

you know. So telling someone, you know,

forget their immediate, think about the

long term, but they're in the media

every single day and witnessing the

immediate now. How do you tell them to

ignore that? It's hard. So even when I

you know I sit down and have the don't

get me wrong like there's there are a

lot of people that do listen and you

know do you want to do other things and

you know that have come and ask me for

advice and ask me to intro to introduce

them to this person or that person and I

I'll always do that but there's

definitely been a lot that's like no but

I I definitely need the chain though I

need I need to at least have you know a

bus down Rolex I need it like I need a

bus down like everybody's been saying

you know you watch all the you know, big

artists in the world. They've all got

crazy chains on. Like, you know, you

look at Hoveve Jay-Z, he's one of our

biggest, you know, the people that we

look up to as a musician and a

businessman.

He's got on a sick watch every time I

see a new picture of him or he's got,

you know what I'm saying? He's got a big

chain. Like, he's still there's still

that element. I feel like for artists,

the compromise is both. Like, go and do

that stuff, but you still need to do

that stuff. Don't just do everything and

buy, you know, spend your money and

splash your money on cars and jewelry

and this. Don't do that. Maybe, you

know, if you want to do get your little

starter pack and, you know, be on your

way. Cool. But don't, you know, go and

spend all of your money or a big chunk

of your money on that. Like, you know,

if you want to do that, do it in, you

know, either stages or do it in, you

know, you don't have to do it all at

once.

I guess I understand the point as well

that like this is branding at the end of

the day. It is it is like it is like

but behind Jay-Z you do have one hell of

a portfolio. Same with Diddy. Like you

have an unbelievable property portfolio,

art collection. He's he's made crazy

bets. But you're right, he especially in

them early days before he

Yeah, he he did like and it's branding,

isn't it? And you know,

it's hard because I feel like for for a

lot of new young artists knowing

everything they've ever wanted was to be

like that rapper they're watching and

become to then turn around and be like,

"No, don't do that."

I completely agree.

I just I feel like they have to go

through it.

What they wanted though was to be

validated and they wanted to fit in and

they wanted to be accepted

cuz when when you go through it Yeah.

You're right. It's like, oh, you're

you're

Yeah, but is there not That's what I'm

saying. Like, this is so systemic that

it's not as easy as I'm It sounds like

I'm making out. Like, it's a really deep

systemic system which is held in place.

Like, and I I realized that when I've

tried to have conversations and tried to

be like, "Yeah, no, this is what you

need to do, and if you want me to

introduce this, you should put your

money into this." And they're just like,

"Yeah,

yeah,

okay.

All right."

and then they go and buy the next, you

know what I'm saying, chain or pendant

or whatever it is.

Well, what you're doing now is the the

best the best possible thing.

And that exactly and like it's a lot

deeper than just, you know, a brand.

It's more the fact that what kind of

brand,

what you are

and showing them that okay, I can

actually do anything then or you know

the the sky's is the limit and them

actually seeing that this is just as big

if not bigger than music because it's an

example that they're following. They're

following the example of the one the

rapper that they admire that came before

them. So words are [ __ ] great, right?

Whatever. Like they're not as powerful

as an example.

Exactly.

That's what role models are. So

So it's just actually going and and

doing the things and them seeing it

and they'll be seeing all this stuff

you've been doing when everyone will be

seeing it

and they'll be thinking, hm, okay.

Yeah. And and it will spark a lot of

people to think,

you know what, let me do the idea that I

had in my head a year ago.

Yeah.

Like why not? Because you know at me

being a rapper to launch you would never

put a rapper launching a baby skincare

line in the same sentence.

Like it's just

it doesn't make sense. Even though it

makes so much sense for my life because

I have a child and a daughter and it and

it makes sense but just

the fact that I've turned that into

something and then them actually seeing

that okay

what it is is actually

a good thing. like it's not, you know,

there's I feel like there's one thing

putting your name to a brand or saying

this is my brand, go and buy it and then

actually another thing actually bringing

something out that in that market

there's a crazy demand for and they're

actually loving it. For anyone that

doesn't have the context, um you've

launched Nala's Baby, which is a um a

child care a child skinare.

Yeah. Skin and hair care um range

named after your daughter Nala.

Nala. Yes.

And this is actually how we first met

cuz I was filming Dragons Day in

Manchester. We were both in this

restaurant called Tattoo, which my

friends, one of my friends restaurants.

Great restaurant. Go check it out. One

of my favorite restaurants actually in

the country.

Um, and you came over and said, you

know, you introduced yourself cuz I

think we've been we on social. Yeah.

Yeah. But we obviously never met face to

face.

And that's one of the first things you

told me about. You said, "I'm launching

this brand in in a in a week or two or

whatever it was." And you after that,

you you sent me the deck of it. And uh I

couldn't believe it. I was sat there

with Peter Jones and Deborra Me and all

the dragons. I was like, "Man, this

guy's [ __ ] launching this sick brand

and it's going into 400 boot stores cuz

I've just been in the den all day

listening to entrepreneurs trying to

figure out how to get into like I don't

know,

they're like having these one of them is

having a meeting with Boots and they're

just getting like blackboard or they're

getting like sidelined or whatever." And

for for you to come up to me, oh, you're

wearing 400 Boot stores. I'm like,

that's the investment I was looking for

all day. Do you know what I mean? I've

been looking at hand sanitizer

and you got all the [ __ ] set up before

you even dropped it. you had seven

figures of investment. You had this cap

table, these investors that are

celebrities and that are, you know, big

names and that are legit people. And you

said, "Yeah, I'm about to drop this

brand in in a in a week or two." Um, and

400 Boot stores. I couldn't quite

believe it. I was like, "That's mad."

And why doesn't why isn't people why,

you know, why isn't everybody talking

about this? And then a week or so later,

everyone was talking about it.

Yeah. Cuz I hadn't announced it then,

right?

They were still I was basically like a

week or two away from actually

announcing it,

right? And um yeah, so it was like it

was one of those ones where it was like

even explaining it to you, I was like

you probably thinking how come I've

never heard of it or why but because

yeah we we hadn't announced it at that

point but the amount of preparation that

went into even just the announcing to

the launch.

How long did that whole project? Two

years.

Two years like two years before before

Nala was born. Um, basically how it how

it started was Sasha, who's Nala's mom,

um, was pregnant with Nala and

she became really like, I want

everything natural. We're having a baby.

I want the best for her as as mothers

do. Do you know what I mean? And

she got introduced to an app. It's like

a product re rating ingredient app um,

called Think Dirty. So, it rates

products from 0 to 10. So 10 being the

absolute worst and zero being the

cleanest. So we're getting, you know,

baby shower gifts and loads of people

are giving us gifts and loads of them

are products and, you know, skincare,

hair care products. So, we're putting

all of these products in the app and

all of these products, you know, they're

claiming that this this that and the

fourth and

a lot of the products are coming up as

eights and fives and like

looking for the zero. Like, is there any

zero zeros here? Like, because it

literally rates each individual

ingredient.

Oh, so zero is a good score.

Zero is the best score. So that means it

has zero bad ingredients in there and

like it highlights each ingredient of

what number it gives each each

ingredient and how harmful and you can

click in it. It gives you the details.

It's really detailed and you know

thorough. So I was like there's no

zerorated like baby range in any of

these any of the brands that we're

getting cuz all the brands was like

they're available in all the high high

street retailers and stuff. So I'm just

like nah this this can't be right. and

she was like, I don't want to use

anything on on her and she's born cuz

why is there no And then we did see like

a few random zeros here and there but

you know they're either really expensive

you know we're talking like 20 a bottle

£25 a bottle or whatever it is or

they're from another country they're not

even sold here. Um, so

you know when she kind of brought this

to my attention, it was like me having

my business hat on was like just like

why don't we why don't we make make it

why don't we make that and then we

thought is there a reason why there

isn't maybe maybe there's a reason maybe

it's not feasible or what's the reason

why isn't there why doesn't this exist

and then

um it was like all right cool where do

we even start and then I reached out to

someone um I don't I'm not sure if she

wants me to say her name on that cuz

she's really like private but she's a G

and I I brought the idea to her

and

she was like this is a sick idea and um

funny enough I met an amazing

manufacturer like a week ago

So, I will present this to them and see

if it's something that they want would

want to do. Um, but let's let's let's

mock up the branding and let's get the

branding right so that, you know, when

we bring it to them, they can kind of

vision it. So, you know, we're working

back and forth in with the branding and

we're like, "Yes, this is it. This looks

exactly how we want it to look." And um

she took it to the manufacturers and the

manufacturers was like, "Let's do it."

like this sounds like an an amazing, you

know, idea. Um, you clearly done

research and you clearly have a USP and,

you know, exactly what you want for this

product. So, this sounds like a journey

that we would love to embark on. So, you

know, getting a tick from the

manufacturer was important for us, you

know, cuz there's loads of And, you

know, she was one of the people as well.

Getting her stamp saying, "Yeah, I think

like this would be great." And um so

we've started developing the formula and

you know they was like okay so what do

you want? I was like look I want a brand

a skincare range not just a you know one

skew but like the whole range. It needs

to for one be a zero rating on this app.

All the ingredients need to be a zero.

Okay we'll get to that. I said, I want

it to be 100% natural as the most

natural you can get it. And then they

came back and was like, you know, 100%

isn't what we would advise for kids

because, you know, microbes and fungus

growing on products. You need shelf

life. So, you know, you need to have a

preservative in there. And and there's

different types of preservatives.

There's natural alternatives. Um, and it

was like, okay, cool. We just want it to

be the most natural you can possibly

get. Like we want it to be as naturally

derived as possible and we wasn't going

to settle. And there was that. And then

there was the checklist of the parent

checklist of, you know, vegan,

crueltyfree,

you know, tear free, so if it goes in

their eyes, it doesn't burn. Alcohol

free, all of these

sensitive skin, eczema, and then, you

know, cuz we took so long formulating

it, Nala was born and she had eczema. So

that was like, you know, it needs to be

suitable for eczema. It needs to not

irritate eczema. It needs to, you know,

be suitable for sensitive skin at least.

We need all of these checklists. And

then it was like, okay, that's great.

And then we was like, but we want it to

be about £5,550.

And that's where it was like,

okay, this is going to be really kind of

difficult to do because it's like if you

want such a great product, it's going to

cost a lot. And then it made me realize

why there's this doesn't exist. Maybe

maybe I still don't know, but why

doesn't this ex and it was like we've

got to really take a hit on the margins,

but if we believe that we can make a

great product and sell loads of units,

then you know it's about the mass amount

of sales rather than the niche market

that can afford an expensive product.

And

and did do you you started this business

with your ex partner? Yes.

At the time when you started this

business, were you still together?

Yes, we was. So you actually you you

separated in the time of formulating the

business.

Yeah, we did.

A lot of people I mean obviously

for a lot of people that would have been

it.

Yeah.

You have broken up but you know I feel

like one thing we've definitely

prioritizes putting our daughter first

and you know we feel like this is

something that if we get it right it can

be something we can pass down to our

daughter or or you know her to be proud

of you know cuz we you know when she's

older we might not even be in a company

still. I don't know what can anything

can happen. We might not even be here or

do you know what the company's valued at