Welcome to the stand. Today we have with

us Adam.dev. If you do not know, the

legendary vegan from the Ozarks. He has

single-handedly helped make something

compete against Claude Code by himself.

Adam is a fantastic dev and we've made

fun of him many times for being a vegan

and going to Korean barbecue with us.

But the more important thing about Adam

is that he went from coding everything

by hand, not really into the AI, going

to full AI psychosis. And apparently he

is back out of AI psychosis, coming into

reality again, took a month off the

internet. And when we saw this, we said,

"Okay, Adam, come on. Talk to us. We got

to hear the story. We got to understand

it." Because I think a lot of people are

probably feeling they're probably in the

month-long adventure or they wish they

had the month-long adventure or even

more so they're probably in full AI

psychosis right now not even realizing

they need whatever you whatever you had.

So we'd love to hear the story and all

that. TJ interruption now.

>> Oh I was just going to say I'm building

my own programming language.

Yeah.

Uh, anyways, sorry,

>> Adam. So, can you give those of us who

don't know like a little bit of

background on like where this whole

thing started cuz like I also don't know

if everyone knows that you worked on

Open Code. I mean, they might only be

passingly familiar with Open Code. So,

could we get can we get like the deep

the the starting point of the story

>> from zero to one, shall we say?

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, yeah. I guess it starts uh like

April of last year. So Claude Code came

out in maybe like February, something

like that. Uh, and I started working on

Open Code in April.

>> And I I would say like that was around

the Claude 3.7. I'm going to reference a

lot of model numbers because it's just

kind of like the timeline. It helps me

remember everything. Uh, that was like

3.7 where I I feel like more it was kind

of picking up. More people were playing

with the whole agentic thing. Uh so not

just like going to the browser and

asking questions and then copy pasting

code but like letting it run on your

machine uh cloud code style. So I

started working on it in April and I

would say like until September maybe

September October I wasn't really using

the stuff. I was building it mostly by

hand. Uh and I would just like forget

and I know Dax and I have talked about

this a lot. we would just completely

forget to use it for weeks or for a week

and then be like, "Oh man, if I'm going

to make this and expect people to use

it, I should be using it,

>> right?"

>> Uh, so mostly like through the summer

just kind of doing everything by hand,

still

>> like playing with it, but not really

sold and not really impressed with with

what it was able to do. Uh, I guess it

was it was sometime in the fall when I

think it was Opus 4. It could be 4

something, but I think it was four when

I started trying to lean harder into it

over the the fall. And again, it just

like, and I've always found this with

the claw models, it just like took so

many shortcuts and did so many stupid

things that I had a hard time like

handing over anything to it without just

feeling like I wasted my time. Uh, yeah.

I I wish Trash was here. I feel like he

would be able to relate more with me.

Like I think when I saying this, I'm

just assuming Casey's thinking it's

still a waste of time.

>> We all wish trash was with us. Okay,

it's okay, Adam. We all

>> here. Here, I'll I'll I'll be trash.

Okay.

>> Hey, is that HTTP? Get that out of here.

That's not how we order coffee. We order

coffee via SSH terminal.shop. Yeah. You

want a real experience? You want real

coffee? You want awesome subscriptions

so you never have to remember again? Oh,

you want exclusive blends with exclusive

coffee and exclusive content? Then check

out Kron. You don't know what SSH is?

>> Well, maybe the coffee is not for you.

Terminal coffee

in hand.

>> To your point though, Adam, I 100%

agree. I feel like

Claude, it loves to be lazy.

>> Yeah, I never really and I still don't

really use the Cloud models. I It was

like really winter sometime. I think it

was December that the GPT5.2 model came

out somewhere around there. And that was

the first time because I had been

reviewing every line that Claude would

spit out. That was the first time that I

was using GPT. There was a few people on

Twitter very actively like praising it

and very loud about it. Uh it was like

reviewing the GPT output compared to the

cloud stuff. It was just so much more

clever. It felt like it it was taking

its time and like it took forever to run

like it was much slower. Uh but I felt

like hey this model output is good

enough that I want to use it more. That

was for the first time I think that I

really started leaning hard into it.

>> It's kind there actually about that

because this is interesting. I feel like

so as someone on the outside of this

sort of stuff, I feel like if I if you'd

asked me like from what you see online,

which of the two models do people

prefer, I would have assumed it was

anthropic because that's what people

always talk about. Is that fake news?

Like is that not really the case? At

least in your experience.

>> I mean, I think this year GPT has kind

of taken the mantle. And I'm speaking

more for like the extremely online

crowd. I don't think I have any idea

what the broader like 80% of developers

who just clock in clock out what they're

doing but the people who talk a lot

online I think GPT models since 5.2 to

have kind of slowly taken and now to the

point I think codeex is kind of the

default. Our team at anomaly I mean 20

20 of us we we by far use the GPD

models.

>> I would say Casey um the thing I've seen

>> is a lot of people who don't want to

look at the code ever really like ant

cla code. Not to say that there aren't

people who like

>> uh like who like looking at code who

aren't ser like I'm there are a lot of

people who are serious engineers who

still like that. But in my experience

it's been like cool I can pay $20

Anthropic gives me $4,000 of tokens. I

don't ever look at the code and I'm like

I have 35 new dashboards. And you're

like but did the dashboards do anything?

But I have 35 of them. So, so not to put

too point fine a point on it here, but

like it sort of sounds like you guys are

saying that for the discerning customer,

you're going to pick chat GPT. Is that

sort of what you're saying at this

point? I mean, I don't want to

>> So, I'm not a chat GPT guy, though. I I

do I do throw it over there. I I

personally every time I generate

something with chat GPT, claude or uh

other models, I find myself always

refactoring and fixing them. And I keep

on trying to make this better and nicer.

And I keep trying to get to this golden

land of you can just produce code and be

happy, but I have yet to be happy. And

so I find them all to be near similar

and that how you prompt it probably

makes a bigger impact.

>> Okay.

>> Except for Claude loves like adding like

GPT loves adding tests. Like they all

kind of have their own like little

flavors to things.

>> Okay.

>> I would say like this generation with

the latest models. They're probably all

pretty similar. I think it's more

probably like the the relations to

developers from anthropic versus open AI

has shifted a lot and I think there's

been a lot of backlash with just the way

anthropics handled certain things. So

it's probably more that at this point.

>> Okay.

>> Sorry. I just I just wanted to hear that

cuz you know I don't have experience

with these things. So I was just kind of

I was curious on that because it's like

it seems like the public uh the public

perception sometimes seems to be that

anthropic is ahead in some way but that

sounds like that's not really true from

the experience of people here. So that

that was good friction. Thank you. I

>> I do want to throw one more thing out

from uh I think it was Lex Friedman who

said this which is that people develop

like a personal love for the model cuz

they solved a problem at a time

>> and then at some point in the future it

fails on solving a problem. So they

switch models and then that new model

successfully does it. So they're like

that's my new favorite one. That's so

it's like more of a like an irrational

love as opposed to like a highly

scientific this is the good one.

>> They're not actually counting like how

many times did this one do a good job,

how many times did that one do a good

job. They're just kind of like

remembering the last big success or

something.

>> Yes, I think that that's that's

typically where it goes.

>> Yeah. I also think probably like people

are discounting that like the models

probably do some stuff differently. Like

they're pretty big. They spend a lot of

money. They've seen a lot of different

stuff. They have different things and

like probably different people's brains,

my guess, would on average work better

for different ones where like, oh, I'm

an overt talker. Maybe it you know, like

there's probably some stuff too where

it's like like that. You'll definitely

see some and like Adam you probably know

feel this too like if I ask GPT to make

if I make like whatever you know 55 if I

ask it to make something and I tell it

to make some UI it will put in the UI

all over the place and it will say

without fail which I don't understand

how they haven't gotten rid of this

hello this is an app built with effect

and it's running on bun also click down

here for more info and you're

What website ever said? When you get to

the front page, they say, "Here's our

tech stack." as the first big header.

Every time you do this, I don't

understand why it's doing this, but it

literally just says, "Hello, here's our

tech stack, and here's some quote from

you describing what you wanted, how to

build this, and you're like,

>> "Okay, guys, that that's crazy." So, for

>> anyways, I don't know, Adam, you can

keep on

>> they do some things clearly different,

and you feel it like when you're using

them. Yeah.

>> Yeah, that's definitely part of it. I

think for a long time people have

complained that the codeex models that

the GBT models are pretty bad at UI and

Sonnet seems to or Opus seem to be

better at that stuff. So it is weird and

like everybody has different workflows.

Some people like to work with it where

they tell it exactly what to do and they

just want to do it very fast. So people

like DHH are very vocal about models

like Kimmy K2.6 or whatever the open

source models.

>> Okay.

>> Uh because they're very fast and they

can be very good at those kind of tasks.

But if you want to like have it build

broader things, scope out, you know,

boilerplate stuff for like a whole

project, then maybe other models are

better. There's all these kind of

nuances. But

>> I think what Prime said, going back to

the the like last success, that was

really kind of what I think spun me off

into what I would call the psychosis.

Okay, cool.

>> Once you

>> once you've been into that AI psycho

psychosis, you see it everywhere. Like

you see so many people's posts and you

just like you know exactly where they

are on this journey.

>> Oh wow. uh like if they start talking

about multiple accounts like they have

multiple codeex accounts or mo multiple

cloud subscriptions or they're talking

about leaving them running overnight

like that kind of stuff you can just go

back and remember exactly the frame of

mind you were in when you kind of like

went down that path.

>> This is fascinating.

>> Yeah. Say more about those things Adam

because I I don't do any of those things

cuz they they seem very distracting to

me with my family. So I've actually I've

avoided this version. Well, I'm I'm a

very intense like obsessive person, so I

think I ran the whole thing kind of on a

speedrun. Like I it maybe normally isn't

so intense and it takes longer and maybe

it's not so disruptive to your life, but

I mean it led for for me to like a

month-long complete burnout. I mean it

was like I was very intensely down this

rabbit hole. Uh and I think it started

with like it's like so I played a lot of

golf in my past and the thing about golf

it's such an expensive sport. It's such

a pain in the ass in so many ways. like

it's just extremely difficult. Like

you're just constantly chasing balls all

over the the woods and everything. Uh

but you'll hit like one good shot every

round and that'll get you coming back.

Like you'll have that moment where

you're like, "Oh, I'm coming back

tomorrow because golf is amazing."

>> And that I think that's what it was like

5.2 era, one of those models just put

out enough really like this is a cool

output. It was something that kind of

got me hooked that dopamine of seeing it

do something that you're like I I could

I might have done it that way. Like

that's that was awesome. That kind of

started the well then I'm going to re

review it less like I'm not looking at

the code as hard. I'm like doing because

those models were so slow you start have

to do all these weird like

parallelization optimizations like

you're you're running work trees and

you're doing all this stuff because

you're waiting 10 minutes for it to

finish.

>> Uh so then you start work for those that

don't know it's just like cloning out

your uh work folder into another one

that's just like a different branch of

git. So you can actually be editing, you

know, two different folders, two

different git branches at the same time

for one project.

>> I thought we were back on the golf

analogy. So that's Thank you, Prime.

That's awesome.

>> Yeah, the ball is off trees. Can I say

for a really good strategy to enjoy golf

more, this is what my mom does when she

golfs, is sometimes she doesn't even

write down the stroke count for the the

like that hole, but she will just put a

little star if it made a nice sound and

got in the air and she says that was a

good hole.

>> So like and she has fun when she goes

golfing.

>> That's what I'm saying. You're not

breaking any course records, guys. Okay?

You're not breaking any course records.

You put

>> Have you Have you met TJ's mom, Happy

Gilmore? Uh really nice uh effort.

>> Really really fun to golf with.

>> Anyway, sorry. Continue, Adam.

>> Uh yeah, where was I? I guess like uh

that's that's when it started. So it was

like had a few outputs that really

compared to the what I was experiencing

with the anthropic models just felt like

this thing's so much smarter. And then

you just start to like uh assign so much

intelligence to this thing that maybe it

just got lucky. Maybe it was just the

exact right thing uh that it needed to

solve and it solved it really well.

Anyway, it it yeah, it led to like I

mean I would be running, you know, four

or five of these things at a time and

I'm sure there's people listening to

this that have gone deeper than this and

they're like rookie numbers or whatever.

Uh you'd have like all these work trees

and you're just doing like endless

refactors that are completely pointless

like or like doing audits like for

performance stuff. I'm sure people are

going to resonate with this. Like you

are in AI psychosis. If you're hearing

this and you're like wait I do that

every day. It's called AI psychosis.

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> You're just like the same

>> recording an ad and it's like a Sarah

McLaclin like this if this is you AI

psychosis

>> and I remember seeing other people

during the in the height of it for me

like through the winter December

January. I remember seeing other people

say things online and you'd be like yeah

he gets it and like what he gets is he

also has but they'd be saying things

like they'd say things like I can't

sleep. I just can't like and that was

me. I couldn't hardly go through night.

I have my laptop in the bedroom and I'd

wake up because I want to start another

prompt. Like I literally couldn't think

of it like going the next 30 minutes

without doing more work. And it's

totally nonsensical and and like just

insane to look back on and think that I

was in my right mind. I wasn't.

>> Uh can I can I jump in? By the way, for

if you don't know uh Casey uh Mark I

just watched a Mark Andre clip and he's

talking about uh AI vampires. Like this

apparently is super popular in the

valley where you are effectively ruining

your entire sleep cuz all night you're

reprompting your agents then going back

to sleep and then waking up in 20

minutes to make sure they're all still

running and then going back like just

totally destroying your brain and your

life over being productive. It's like

people people debating whether they

should get into the polyphasic sleep and

stuff like I'm going to sleep five times

a day for 20 minutes each like it was

>> Adam if you do that it's kind of like

you have six days and if you think about

it you stack that up over one month I'm

going to kick your butt.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Sorry. UH IF PUT THE CLIP IN JOSH

PUT THE CLIP IN.

>> So I measure time. I've compressed and

condensed time. I've bent it. My day is

6:00 a.m. to noon. And I'm not crazy.

You're crazy for thinking it takes 24

hours. just like some dude in a cave did

300 years ago. My second day starts at

noon and goes till 6 p.m. That's day

two. And then the next day is 6:00 p.m.

to midnight. What I've done now is I

have changed a manipulated time. I now

get 21 days a week. Stack that up over a

month. I'm going to kick your butt.

>> That sounds excellent. I have no idea

what I don't think he was joking. I

don't think he was joking. So I I I do

want to say on the like the the AI

psychosis part of like waking up and all

this stuff, this is like not that

different from a bunch of other things

where people like people do insane stuff

to like play slot machines or do a bunch

of you know what I'm saying? Like

sometimes

>> coin back when I was trading it in like

2012 2013 I I was losing sleep.

>> When you didn't hold Yeah. Right.

>> Sounds a little bit like World of

Warcraft too originally. I remember

people had problems with that where they

would just kind of like they would stop

leaving the house and they would just

Okay. Yeah. Like

>> a pattern.

>> Yeah.

>> So, so Adam, like um how does this start

exactly though? Like because is it were

you seeing particularly good like

improvements in productivity or was it

really just it was just the fact that

you liked seeing that the AI could do

something and so you felt like there was

something to like to go after there and

you just couldn't help yourself but do

that even though it wasn't necessarily

like oh my god I'm getting all this much

more work done.

>> I think it's the latter. I think you

would you would convince yourself of the

former to justify it like this is so

much more productive. I'm getting so

much done.

>> I see.

>> Uh but I think it really is just like

that prompt and dopamine cycle. You

would you'd submit a big prompt, you'd

come back and see the results and it's

just the slot machine thing. It's like

did it do a good job?

>> Uh and then you get into and I'm sure

there's people that get into these with

LLMs even outside of coding. Like I'm

sure I mean you people falling in love

with models and stuff. I'm sure it's a

similar phenomenon or just a sicko what

is it? Sick of pants whatever

sick of pants.

>> Sick of pants. I don't know.

>> Sick of pants. That's

>> I love shorts though.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. They're they're clearly like

>> they're clearly engineering.

>> I'm from the Ozarks. Okay.

>> We don't use big words.

>> All right. Uh

they're clearly engineered to like give

us that reward cycle. Like there it's

it's probably no different than any

other thing you can get addicted to. And

I get addicted to things very easily and

then very hard when I do. So

>> that's really interesting. So uh what

was like the worst point of this? Like

like what So at some point you decide

you're like you selfdecide you have a

problem I guess like were you the first

person to go I have a problem?

>> Uh

>> or did somebody tell you?

>> You know I mean my wife probably would

have first noticed uh

>> what was a sign that you were having a

problem? Like what did she point the

sleep stuff?

>> Yeah. What' she say? The Yeah, the sleep

stuff is the big thing for me cuz I I've

struggled with staying asleep for work.

Just before all this, you know, for my

entire career, I would it felt like

Christmas morning every day. Like I'd

sleep four or five hours a night and

want to get up to work on the thing

because like I get a big something out

of of programming and and building

things. Uh so I've always struggled with

sleep and we had to in the last couple

years really like build some boundaries

around I'm going to sleep eight hours a

night or I'm going to stay in bed at

least. Uh, so when it started

interrupting my sleep that I think

that's probably the first sign that drew

attention from my wife. Nobody really

like nobody I work with, I don't

remember Dax or anybody that works

closely with me saying like, "Hey, I

think you're you're losing your mind."

Uh, I think it was probably just the

burnout. Like I the first real like

something has to change is I didn't want

to wake up in the morning. And that's

like very rare for me. I'm just I'm I'm

a morning person. when I start sleeping

till like 7 7:30 I know something's

wrong and yeah it was it had just driven

me into this kind of like very hard

burnout that nothing I've never

experienced anything like it in my

career not not to this extent I've had

burnout where for a couple days I'm like

I want to work on something else but not

where I don't even want to get up or I

don't want to work like it's just a it's

always been like an obsession of mine so

>> quick question was just just so I really

understand it for you it was the

it was the pursuit of making the AI have

the hole in one

and it just didn't happen. So, you just

kept pursuing this like feeling of like

the perfect commit, the perfect prompt,

the perfect tier.

>> Or was it?

>> I think I just I don't think it ever

stopped doing what I was looking for. I

think I just physically mentally wore

myself out to the point that I had to

stop.

>> Like,

>> okay. I don't I don't think anything

clicked for me

>> when we were talking about it, Adam. I

thought like one of the things that I

remember you saying was just like

the company you were at before had like

less of a like direct competitor. So it'

been like a while since like you're

working on open code. There's like you

know a trillion dollars floating around

of people trying to

>> take every user of course and things

like that. So some of it, if I recall,

you were just like, "Oh, there's like a

trillion things for us to build and I

want to build this and I want to build

that and we need to build all the things

at once AND OH MY GOODNESS, I CAN BUILD

ALL the things at once cuz I have AI."

Like that was the impression that I got

when we were talking about it a while.

>> Yeah, it's a very competitive field

right now. I mean, a lot of people

trying to figure out how they can be the

ones that shape programming henceforth.

Uh so yeah, I'm not used to that. I'm

not used to having any competitors, let

alone a hundred of them I can look at on

Twitter every day. So yeah, Twitter was

or X was a big part of also mental

health drain. Uh all of it kind of came

together with the AI psychosis to kind

of drive me into a hole and it forced me

to stop. I mean I didn't work for a

month like I've never done that in my

career. Uh five weeks even I think and

that was enough time to get some

perspective uh to not interact with LLM

for a while. It's kind of like you start

looking at it all very differently. Uh

once you get kind of snapped out of that

that

>> can can you tell us what you did during

those five weeks? like so just no

Twitter, no LLMs or no programming.

>> Well, he was he was he was tired of he

he it was affecting him negative

psychologically to go on X and see all

these competitors. So he moved to Blue

Sky where he wouldn't be scared of

competitors anymore.

>> No, I actually Yeah, I was pretty I was

pretty off pretty.

>> No, that's good. I do have a Blue Sky

account.

>> Okay, there you go. Partially true.

PARTIALLY TRUE. GET OFF THE podcast this

podcast official.

>> I don't use it. I don't know.

>> I have one. I I try to cross post on

there sometimes. I'm just kind of lazy

about it. I I don't I want people to be

able to get stuff wherever they want it,

right? So,

>> yeah.

>> Anyway,

>> yeah, I was uh for that I mean for that

five weeks, the first couple weeks I was

really sick. My whole family, we just

get sick because my kids are in school

and that that just happens.

>> And the veganism.

>> True.

>> And the veganism. Yeah. Uh so I was a

couple weeks just like holed up in bed,

watched Netflix for the first time in

years. That was interesting. Uh,

Breaking Bad's pretty good. I'd never

watched Breaking Bad and like everybody

talks about Breaking Bad, so I was like,

gonna watch Breaking Bad. Anyway, uh, I

watched some Netflix and then I would

say the the last few weeks a lot of time

golfing, ironically. Got back into golf.

Uh, just hang out with my wife. We

played a lot of tennis while the boys

were still in school. Uh, just a lot of

time offline. It was It was the most

offline I think I've been Yeah. in my

career. So, in 15 years.

How are you feeling now?

>> I feel amazing. Uh yeah, so I came back

uh I'm just now getting started working

on some stuff again with the open code

team and it was like I feel like I came

back right as the team the team one just

grew a lot. Uh, so we just hired a bunch

of people and I've kind of seen how a

lot of the team members have found a

healthy way to work with AI and like

just seeing their perspectives on how

they use it to kind of like to like

generate better code and focus on like

spending more time trying to drive

toward a given outcome as opposed to go

really fast, cover a lot of ground, like

all the kind of stuff that that I got

into that was so unhealthy. Uh so kind

of like going more into the craft and

trying to go back to we're just going to

get to really good outcomes and and use

these tools to get us to better outcomes

than we would have taken the time to get

to before. Uh so yeah, it feels like

most the team has kind of converged on

this very healthy way to approach AI

coding and that's been helpful like I

can kind of reframe how I view this

stuff. It's still a little scary. Like I

don't know like am I just one prompt

away from

just like crazy obsession again. I I

hope not. Uh but yeah, it's felt good.

It's been like a week and a half now

I've been back.

>> Is there anything that starts to kind of

trigger that feeling? Like is there a

specific type of response or something

that you can feel yourself drifting

towards or is it just all general usage?

>> I don't know. I uh I don't really feel

like I'm going to go back at this point.

And I feel like it's some kind of hype

cycle thing where once you're on the

other side of that peak, you're you're

probably like you have the perspective

you're not going to fall back into it,

but uh yeah, I don't I can't say for

sure. I guess I don't know really what

triggered it the first time. I just

think it was kind of like feeling that

this thing is more intelligent than the

previous models. And so maybe that's it.

Maybe some new model comes out and right

all the hype that happens and all the

excitement and it does something some

unique thing that the other models

always failed at and you're like, "Oh my

god, this one this one's it.

It's here to save us all.

>> Walk us through. You get a new ticket,

Adam. How are you going to fix how how

does that go now? I'm interested to

hear.

>> What's a ticket?

>> You know, an issue on GitHub or

something that you want to go fix. Yeah.

Not like for speeding,

>> Adam. For developers like Tee where when

they ship code, they get a lot of these

issue reports on it. You're you're

probably not as familiar with that.

>> Big fan. Big fan. I get a lot of

tickets. Uh my boss keeps sending them

to me. He says we have AI. He's making

10x the tickets. He's coding now, too.

So that's really fun.

>> People seem to think it's like traffic

tickets, but no, it's like raffle

tickets. The more you have, the more you

win. That's how it works.

>> It's a 50/50 raffle. Exactly.

>> Exactly.

>> Well, I think for for one thing, like

the models have gotten so much faster.

So the GPT models, which I only really

use those. I don't really use anthrop

anthropic models have always been fast

but now they're fast enough that you

don't really have to do the whole

paralyze thing like you don't you don't

feel like you're wasting 10 minutes if

you prompt and then just wait for it

like used to it took so long you kind of

needed something else going on.

>> Uh so I've I've stopped the parallel

stuff. I'm not trying to do anything

like that and just kind of focusing on a

single task. Uh getting on Discord like

we've just got so much going on in our

team channels now we've grown that we're

20 people or whatever. Uh so in between

prompts I can kind of catch up with the

team or do stuff that I need to do on

the open source side. That that's been

the healthy approach I think is just not

trying to like just having a perspective

that like more code being slung into the

codebase is not more productive. That's

not the goal. Uh because you start to

kind of feel like how much can I output

or how much can I churn? How big of a

diff can I create every day? uh that

kind of you know it like in your right

mind you know that that's not it but

like in the middle of it for some reason

that starts to become this like game you

feel like there's this super it's Gary

Tan on on Twitter like you just start to

you can relate with uh or I can relate

with all the things he says where you

can just see the AI psychosis so clearly

like start to feel so powerful like I'm

amazing

>> I'm going to need a new USBC cord that's

how I'm going on this thing

>> a lot of tokens that was going to be my

followup question actually Casey was how

many USBC cords did you go through

during that

>> I don't even know if Adam gets the joke

>> I don't actually yeah now I feel really

embarrassed

>> I don't think it was while you were

offline but there's a great

>> which we still are trying to determine

we cannot figure out is it satire or not

we don't know um but Gary Tan made a

post about how like guys

>> burning through so many tokens with

clawed code over here and my USBC cable

burned turned up. Does anyone know what

the rating is for tokens on these bad

boys?

>> I have I uh I luckily have it actually

on quick pullup on the app that I of

course vibe coded. I have my own Gary

section and this is it right here. Is it

possible I use quad code so much somehow

my USBC connectors burned out on my

MacBook Pro. Two of mine are dead and

won't charge and now the third maxes out

at 15 watts. Now I'm afraid my code

Tamagotchi is about to die.

So, you know, Adam, maybe you didn't go

far enough into AIS. Maybe maybe you

only saw the first the first circle of

AI psychosis.

>> Gary Tan is down there in the center.

>> Yeah.

>> The only problem with my current

perception of Gary is I don't think

anybody is smart enough to write satire

that good. So, I don't understand. I

don't understand. It's Anyways,

whatever. Um, so there you go.

>> There's only few world famous comedians

and I just don't know if he is He's one

of them.

>> That's what I'm saying. Like I just

Yeah,

>> he showed up in the lobster suit, dude.

>> That's true.

>> I mean, I don't know. Maybe he's like

way further ahead than we think in terms

of the comedy cycle.

>> Yeah.

>> Anyway, uh, so here's a here's a stupid

question for you, Adam.

Like are you guys gonna add something to

open code that's like if you would like

to turn this on this is an AI psychosis

detector. Like it's like we will we will

put up a thing that's like warning you

have freaking five instances of this

thing running and it's been going for

over 24 hours and we are very worried

that you need to like see a psychologist

right now just you know no judgment just

trying to tell you.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it's like the old Wii popup

like maybe you should go outside now.

>> Yeah,

>> take a break.

>> Um I'm not really joking. I was just

like in all seriousness.

>> It's actually brilliant. Yeah, I don't

think we've talked about it, but uh

given my history with it and the damage

it did to my mental health, I it's not a

terrible idea. I kind of like it.

>> It seems like, you know, as long as it's

optin, I can't imagine people would

complain, right? Like

>> it's like, hey, you turn way to like

>> there needs to be a way to like vote for

your friend that it gets turned on. So

like if you know like nine of your

friends like suggest that it gets turned

on for your account then it turns it on

for you.

>> Okay. So open you have to put in like

your your ex handle and Twitter it'll go

like crawl to see who your friends are

and it'll it'll look to see if they

start saying things and it'll go like

okay we're we're turning on the AI

psychosis detector for you.

>> Uh yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Have we thought about just asking the

AIS if they have

>> Yeah.

Is is so is it hard working on a AI

product when you have to detox from AI?

Cuz like it's kind of like it's like

it's kind of like oh I I was a cocaine

addict but I have to work at the at at a

cartel or DA or someone where like

cocaine's around all the time, right?

And you're just like I wanted to try and

get off this stuff but people are asking

like is this pure, you know, like so

>> yeah. you know, you know, that that's a

part that I kind of I feel like I I've

forgotten that that was definitely part

of the psychology of that initial

getting so hard into it because I would

just tell myself like if I'm not using

this, why would I expect anyone else to

use it? So, I kind of like convinced me.

Yeah. Even if I wanted to write

something by hand, I would be like, "No,

I should try and do it with the AI." So,

I think I did kind of get forced into

the reliance and the daily usage of it.

Maybe that led to the obsession. Yeah. I

don't know. I'm a week and a half in.

It's a little scary uh that I'm going to

continue to use these things and I don't

know exactly what it was, you know, that

that triggered it in the past.

>> Are you are you now doing things more by

hand? Is it or is it still like do you

still effectively operate the same or

has any sort of change happened?

>> I mean the change is is mostly just

slowing down and and realizing like the

goal and like what you know what am I

measuring week to week? What's

important? It's not I don't know how

many big PRs I can merge. It's it's more

like outcome based. So, I've definitely

slowed down, but I am I'm mostly just

generating stuff. I'm not writing a lot

by hand. Uh I'm definitely reviewing

like I was in the the beginning. I kind

of got out of that in the middle of the

psychosis where I wasn't even looking at

the code anymore. You're just like

there's no time to read code. We must

keep going.

>> Okay. So,

>> yeah. Oh, go ahead.

>> Oh, go ahead. You can you can go if

you're still going along live cuz I was

going to slightly

>> I was going to I was just going to say

like in in my experience is probably the

person on this call with the second mo

closest thing to AI psychosis uh at any

point. Uh or at least like I use the

models a lot more than Casey for sure

and more than prime. Uh, like if you

stop reviewing for like a week,

sometimes it feels like okay for

something, but then you look back and

you're like, why is there 500 instances

of is record in this codebase? What?

Well, and it's just literally a

function. Function is record type

unknown returns is record type 35. And

like and you're like,

>> okay, if it did that,

>> what else did I not notice in the last

week? Like if it couldn't even figure

out that we have a function called is

record which already we banned from the

codebase and I wrote like some of these

I literally have like eslint style rules

that automatically check the model does

it so often that I like made something

be like this function name is banned we

don't do that function here there there

will be no even if there's an actual

reason to check for is record we don't

do that here um

>> well I'm wondering there the

>> the goal here I think originally was

they're trying to pro provide a tool

that does what programmers generally do.

And so they looked across the code bases

and were like, you know what, most

production code bases have about 15

functions called is record and they all

do the same thing only some of them may

have slight differences so that you

don't get exactly the same depending on

which one you accidentally called. So we

here you go guys, we've delivered to you

exactly what you wanted. Something that

produces code just like you write. Yeah,

it does. In a way, it kind of does feel

like the AI is the most human when it's

[ __ ] Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's like, yeah, that probably

happened in the base code base of this

thing red, right? Like,

>> yeah.

>> Um, but so, but the so like from my, you

know, from my side, like Adam, I'm

wondering if a lot of it now is more

like

>> it's just about like as a human, I can't

focus on 10 things deeply at the same

time like right. So like when I thought

I could do like if you thought you could

run 10 agents simultaneously focus all

them deeply like that doesn't really

that doesn't make sense with my

experience or like the people that I

know. So then it's like

is it just that now you feel like your

brain it stays turned on the whole time

you're focusing on one thing like even

though maybe the LLM still writing a lot

of the code for certain tasks like

that's the main difference like that's

I'm trying to sort of piece out where

you think like that that's the

distinction. Uh, man, I don't know. The

the the tell for me is like I sleep

fine. So, I don't know exactly

>> like when that would go if you know what

would be the first signs I would notice

that I'm slipping back into it. You guys

had me a little worried to be honest now

that I've talked through the whole

thing. Like I'm a little a little on

edge that

>> we'll be on the lookout for you. Don't

worry.

>> Yeah, please do. That's the other thing.

I don't know like nobody really said

anything to me. I don't remember people

being like, "Hey, I think you have a

problem with this AI code." To be fair,

we couldn't see what your sleep uh

schedule was if you share me your uh if

you share me your Google Fit analytics

or something. I can be on the lookout

for you.

>> That's right. We'll monitor your sleep

your sleep schedule and and email you a

big brother.

>> I'm just going to do a quick I'm just

going to take a quick 15 hours to build

a quick agent to be able to monitor you

if that's a deal for you.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so I actually I do have some real

questions which is you know

>> what was what WERE OUR QUESTIONS? OUR

OUR QUESTIONS. I WAS ASKING REAL

QUESTIONS.

>> OKAY. I have realer questions, buddy.

All right. These are some real

hard-hitting questions. Um, okay. Real

question here coming in hot. With

>> with your life, your life is a bit

unusual. And I'm not just talking about

being a vegan. Like if you look over a

lot of the people between the ages of 22

to 30 right now, they don't have uh

they're not married. They don't have

kids. They don't have kind of this kind

of more wellestablished kind of road.

They don't have muscles. They don't they

eat red meat regularly. They're probably

on ad roll. They don't have like a lot

of um

>> they don't have this person.

This is like 85% of the valley, right?

I'm like spot on calling on.

>> So far, this is a real question. This is

>> I love how my my questions were just

these fake fake loser questions and the

crime comes in with this description of

the average person

I don't even know where I don't know

where is that is Nebraska is it Silicon

Valley where where is that person eating

red meat no has no muscles or just a fat

blob but oozes along the the ground like

what what what is this idea what the

valley's like anyways

>> can somebody please take what he just

said feed it into like midjourney and

see what comes out as the drawing and so

we could post it here right to see WHAT

WHAT IS FRANK TALKING ABOUT.

>> OKAY, I want it I want Prime's question

though just if someone can in the

comments leave the LinkedIn version of

this question

all saying they want versions. I want

like a cartoon version where it's like

the drawing in the in the guitar music

like drawing the person as I speak.

Okay. So, this like the average the

average developer right now does not

look like your life. Like I'm just going

to throw that out there. I don't think

the average young person typically has

this type of life, a house, stability,

family, kids, all that kind of stuff,

right? Just all all by statistical

purposes, everyone is getting married

significantly later, having kids way

later. How do they and also friendships

are completely like cratering right now.

So, how do they have the same people

that can speak into their life or how do

they recognize that they're in

psychosis? Like, what is your advice for

somebody who right now is jacked out of

their mind Silicon Valley vampiring

right now, but they have nobody to speak

into their life? Like, what would what

would you say or how would you say for

them to recognize that they're in a bad

place?

>> Uh, man, I mean, to recognize it, I

would say, yeah, it's it's looking at

your your health. Are you abandoning

habits you had before? This is basic

like addiction stuff. Uh if you're like

choosing to do this to to send prompts

instead of, you know, working out or

whatever you were doing before that was

healthy, that's a problem. Uh in terms

of like how it play, I mean, I didn't

have somebody intervene. I just kind of

like it ran its course. Like

>> you said you had your wife be like,

"Bro, you're not sleeping anymore and

you're bringing your you're bringing

your laptop to bed. I don't really like

this."

>> Yeah. And once we stopped that, once

that became like, no, we're not going to

have we're not going to have that going

on. I think it did start to get a little

better. Uh, but it didn't really prevent

the burnout. Didn't prevent me crashing

pretty hard because I mean, I stay here

for eight hours a day. It's the it's the

cocaine thing. It's like I am going to

go to work today and like that's going

to be an exposure that is going to keep

the thing going. So, I don't know if

like if intervention is a thing that's

all that because like for every one

friend that if you did have one that

told you, "Hey, I think you're going a

little hard on this." you can find like

10 people online that are like, "No,

man. You're not you're not going hard

enough. Like, you got to go harder." Uh

because it's very much a culture right

now. And I think like that that typical

especially if you're talking about a

developer from Silicon Valley, like I

think they're immersed in a a group that

thinks this is

>> this is how work looks now. Y uh so

yeah, I don't know. I think it just kind

of has to play its course. I don't

really know that you're going to get

talked out of it.

do a post, tag Ryan Flurry and see if he

says delete your account in the reply.

Like that's a pretty good metric of

>> I would be I would be honored. Yeah. You

know, and like that would be my like if

he says that's chill, you're good. You

don't have it.

>> Yeah, that's a good point.

>> Yeah,

>> that's a good point.

>> Just put CC Ryan Flurry at the end of

your tweets. And and if he replies,

"Delete your account." Then you know you

got

>> psychosis done.

>> The official diagnosis.

>> I would say I would say

>> you go to the doctor and you're like,

"Uh, sorry. I just I got to delete your

account from Ryan Flurry today. I'm I'm

worried that I'm really in trouble like

that. My

>> I I'll I'll give you I'll give you

another test of maybe a more serious one

that I think you can do. If you find

yourself agreeing with everything

someone who has a large monetary

incentive reason to sell you on, right?

Like, oh, Anthropic says all of software

dev is cooked in six months from now.

There will be no reason to have skill.

And then you look at their website and

they're spending a bunch of money hiring

people and you say, "But I agree with

what they're saying in the in the in the

pitch. That's like a good that should be

a little at least tickle in the back of

your mind that like hm maybe the

billions of dollars that they have on

the line are an incentive for them to

mislead me and make me be in a bad you

know I think that that's like that's an

easy one to see online if you're

agreeing with everything Daario says

that's bad guys that's bad

yeah there's definitely a flavor of it

like there's a flavor of the psychosis

these types that I don't I don't

understand really like what would

motivate someone to be so like uh

aligned with technology in general. It's

like

>> if you try to say anything bad about AI

or about you know what's going on with

the big model labs like they're there to

defend and they're just like this random

account on X like they clearly have

something going on in their brain.

>> Uh just like technology enthusiasts or

something and maybe this predates the AI

psychosis. Maybe this was going on.

>> Oh yeah, it happened with like Vim and

and programming languages. Defending

technology has happened forever. like

this is definitely nothing new, but I

will say that the uh the ferveny of it

is is unique in the sense that uh with

like zero zero is a good good example of

this. There was somebody in the comments

was like, "Man, zero's awesome. I can't

wait to try it." It's just like, "Okay,

how can it be awesome and you've never

tried it?" Like, there is like something

so broken to this entire idea. Like,

this doesn't make any sense. Like you're

so glued to whatever they send you that

you're like, "This is the best thing

ever. I will now try it and it will be

the best thing ever." Right? Like that

is definitely some form of reality mis

misststepping there.

>> Uh I have a question.

>> Is it also is it a real one, Casey, or

is it just kind of like a throwaway? No

fake. It's a it's only a half and half

question since cuz I don't really know

like this is not my this is not my these

are not my monkey circus right like

there this is a whole I don't know

anything about any of this right

>> but I wanted to ask like would it also

be a good sign since we're talking about

signs

>> if you start really getting excited

about the Gstack

>> so would that be a good would that be a

good sign that maybe you've gone to if

you're like oh my god of the Gstack.

>> Is anyone really excited about that?

>> I don't know, but I feel like

>> I mean, that would definitely

>> I I mean, I have I have received not

just one, but we're talking about dozens

of comments being like, "This bro is

just angry because his skills have been

reduced down to an MD file that Gary,

you know, like that kind of stuff." So,

>> okay. All right. Well, okay. But to be

fair, like for you,

>> I mean, yeah. I'm just saying for me

it's okay, but like Casey, he he can't

reduce him down to an MD.

>> I think uh why is there no PAC prime?

Why Why haven't you made a

>> No, you're going about this all wrong. I

>> I'm not even joking. Why have you not

made a competitor to the Gstack called

PAC on stream? I would watch the heck

out of that.

>> Okay, to be fair, I am in the process

and I've been experimenting for the last

couple months making Prime Agent.

>> Okay, there we go. That's all I want to

hear. That's all I needed to hear. Yeah,

it's it's a different it's a different,

you know, take on the whole thing.

>> Okay.

>> I would also say it's uh finding like

the P stack is not as sort of like

mythical as finding the G stack.

>> Okay.

>> So, it's

Yeah, less to brag about.

>> Yeah, it's not that big a deal.

I I said I I couldn't imagine people I

think I'm just not imagining programmers

who are like taking Gary Tan seriously,

but there probably is a group of like

business pros, like the non-technical

folks that are like Gary's on to

something and and they probably are

impressed. So, yeah, that would be a

that would be a tell.

>> So, uh I guess like we we should

probably wrap up here, right? I mean,

Adam, what's uh what's the closing? Like

what's

>> I guess your your takeaway kind of

sounds like you're not sure yet. Like

it's like it's like we're kind of just

in the early stages of this and like

you're gonna come on in six months and

tell us what actually happened. I guess

sort of.

>> Yeah. I mean I think Yeah. I think my

particular story is still being written.

Uh it's possible.

>> It's possible. I fell back into it. I

just imagine it though like the hype

cycle like the

>> I just imagine that's kind of what

everybody goes through. you go through

this crazy peak where you're like this

is god technology and then eventually

you fall off and now I'm on that slow

steady climb of trying to figure out how

to make this stuff actually help me

dayto-day. Uh so I I think that's the

long kind of healthy journey I'm on

right now. That's my hope.

>> I think you're going to do great Adam.

>> Yeah, thanks T. Appreciate that. Boot up

the day.

V coating errors on my screen.

Terminal coffee

and

living the dream.