And there's far more going right in any

of us, in all of us, than there is going

wrong if we're here, right? And if we're

listening to to educational material, we

want to better ourselves, there's so

much more that's going right in us, and

it's a good place for us to start

because it helps us to be able to look

at what's not going the way we want it

to be, what we where we want to bring

change in our lives, but we should start

from a position of strength. Welcome to

the Huberman Lab podcast where we

discuss science and science-based

[music] tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and ophthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti

is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and

an expert in recovery from trauma. He is

also one of the foremost public

educators on how anyone can build a

greater sense of agency, confidence, and

well-being in their life.

Today we discuss the practical aspects

of building and maintaining mental

health. In particular, how to identify

your natural strengths and the often

unseen opportunities to improve your

reflexive mental framework and

relationship with self and others. Dr.

Conti's approach to building mental

health and overcoming challenges with

mental health are very different than

most of the information that you'll find

on the internet and elsewhere. He has

decades of clinical experience and he

draws on that end data to explain the

specific questions that we all need to

ask ourselves when we're facing things

like lowered motivation, mood, or

challenges overcoming bad habits. Today

we discuss all of that as well as how to

balance action and introspection. And

this is very important because I think a

lot of people think about mental health

as merely an introspective process, but

as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a

balance of thinking and doing and often

involves more doing than thinking. So

during today's episode, you'll get a

specific framework of questions to ask

yourself repeatedly, that is every day

or every week, and specific action steps

to take so that you can truly become the

best version of yourself and derive the

greatest sense of meaning along the way.

I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti

also has a new book coming out which is

aptly entitled What's Going Right, a

powerful new method for optimizing your

mental health. And I've read the book

from front to back and I have to tell

you it's a wonderful resource that

includes both information and simple

worksheet-like prompts that can help

anyone through sticking points as well

as to build on what the title suggests,

what's already going right. So if you're

currently suffering or if you're doing

well and you want to level up your

mental health further, today's

conversation is definitely for you.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

that this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is, however, part of my desire and

effort to bring zero-cost to consumer

information about science and

science-related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul

Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back.

Thank you. Thank you for having me back.

>> Uh congratulations on your

book, What's Going Right, uh a powerful

new method for optimizing your mental

health. It's an amazing book and you

also hold the record not incidentally, I

think, for the most viewed and

downloaded episodes of this podcast

ever, so Wow.

>> Um you know, you got a lot of Huberman

podcast listener fans out there, so um

>> they'll be reading if if they're smart

and they and they want to be better,

they want to feel enriched in all the

ways. So let's talk about um

>> Let's talk about individuals first and

then I also want talk today about um

interactions between people, which we

probably haven't talked quite as much

about, okay, at least not here. The

self, right? We all have a a name, a

self-concept. We wake up thinking and

knowing essentially who we are, what

bothers us, what we're excited about,

and um

the question I've been living with for a

long time is how malleable is our

self-view, right? Our and our

relationship to our self and and we can

define those, right? If we're not super

comfortable or completely happy with our

relationship to ourselves,

how much flexibility is there on the

on that whole picture?

I think it's very malleable. I think

there's a lot of flexibility, but we

have to be willing to look at ourselves.

You know, very often we're not looking

at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're

going to find or

um

we don't know how to understand or how

to bring change, so so we don't look at

ourselves and then we we can see

ourselves as inflexible and and and

think that we're just stuck in the same

place over time, but if we're willing to

look at ourselves and we bring the

compassionate curiosity to ourselves of,

hey, what what can I learn about myself

and what might I be interested in

changing in myself or in emphasizing in

myself, we we I think we can bring a lot

a lot of change. And the title of your

book, uh What's Going Right, uh is that

a good lens to start uh looking through

when we look at our self, like like what

what works, you know, um 10 fingers, 10

toes, in my case I'm that a good place

to start, uh

you know, that I

feel some sense of agency over a number

of areas of my life. Is that the way to

start wading into the questions about

self?

>> I think to start off with what's going

right, it's not just a way of looking at

it because it feels better, but it but

it's consistent with truth. I mean,

there's far more going right in any of

us, in all of us, than there is going

wrong if we're here, right? And if we're

listening to to educational material, we

want to better ourselves, there's so

much more that's going right in us, and

it's a good place for us to start

because it helps us to be able to look

at what's not going the way we want it

to be, what we where we want to bring

change in our lives, but we should start

from a position of strength. And the

mental health system

really tells us to look at ourselves in

the opposite way, to look at ourselves

through what is going wrong and to put

labels on ourselves that that often just

make us feel worse or make us feel more

helpless or hopeless in understanding,

but but if we start with what's going

right and we bring curiosity to

ourselves, then there are processes we

can follow to understand and to bring

real change. What are some of those

processes that um people could use to

explore and if you would, what are some

questions that people can or thoughts or

or landscapes to explore where people

can ping themselves with specific

questions? So good places to start are

they looking at your self-talk. You

know, what are you saying to yourself in

quiet moments when no one else is

listening or when there's there's a

pause in the action in your life, what

are you saying to yourself? What

messages are you giving yourself? And

often times we're telling ourselves

things that about ourselves that are

often negative or often critical and

we're not aware that we're we're saying

these things over and over to ourselves.

So so that's just one strategy. And

another strategy can be to think about

the life narrative that we're telling

ourselves. So if you just tell yourself

about yourself or if you're telling

someone else about you, what what is it

that you say? What is it that you that

you say in a reflexive way and does it

match what's real and true about your

life? You know, we both

all people have these two foundational

pillars and and in the first part of the

series that we did in 2023, we really

sort of hashed this out and it was the

first time I really put together, hey,

there's a structure of self and we all

share this and I'd you know, I've been

thinking along these lines, but the our

our talk helped me to pull together,

hey, there there's something that

applies to all of us. Just because we're

human and we have a human brain and a

human mind, there is a structure of self

and a function of self and these

foundational pillars are where we can

look to understand ourselves better and

to bring better health. So if we are

aware of where to look and how to look

and we're willing to look because we're

not afraid of what we're going to find

and we have we have a belief that we can

bring change, then this is how we we

bring flexibility and malleability and

and we can approach ourselves feeling

really good that, hey, if I do this, I

am going to be able to make things

better. There's so much hopefulness to

that and it's it's reasonably grounded

hopefulness.

I have a question that might seem like a

a leap somewhere else, but it it I

promise it ties back to what we're

talking about. In your experience with

psychiatry and the brain and patients

and interacting with people in your own

life,

do you think that

there's tremendous variation or little

variation in how state-dependent people

are? Um you know,

some people it seems um

they you know, they're so affiliative

that when they're in uh relating to

somebody else, they they think and feel

completely differently than they do when

they're on their own. Mhm. And not not

necessarily even extroverted to for that

to be true. Um but that when they're

suddenly alone, um that that internal

state is very different, almost like

it's two different lives. Mhm. Right?

There's a reason why I'm asking this,

but I'm wondering about the role of

state dependence in how we think and how

we feel and how we uh think about the

things around us and think about

ourselves. For most of us, life is

moving very fast and life has a lot of

stressors in it and what ends up

happening is we're kind of rushing just

to keep up with ourselves. And and when

that happens, we become very

state-dependent as opposed to being able

to observe ourselves, to so to be able

to see, okay, I'm here and this is what

I'm doing and this is the people I'm

with and how I'm feeling and how I'm

behaving. To be able to observe

ourselves is how we knit together one

self across situations. So we can be

aware I'm different in one situation

than another, right? So so some of the

behavior then and the sense of self is

state-dependent, but there's a whole

self that's riding above all of it,

that's observing us and knitting us

together. What sometimes gets called an

observing ego and this is how we can

both be state-dependent, but also have a

self that that is true across all of

those states.

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When somebody sits down to think about

their strengths or to think about their

self-talk or um

to just think about what they're made of

and how they want to change or not

change certain things, build on certain

strengths,

when and how should they do it? Yeah, I

think all we need to bring is curiosity.

Right? That's all and and curiosity

doesn't have to be overly serious or or

worried, right? It doesn't have to have

a gravity to it. I mean, it can, but it

can also be very light-hearted. You

know, there's so many things that we're

curious about, so many things we want to

learn about and this is great. It's

great for our brains and it's great for

our health to be curious and to want to

learn. But so often, what we leave out

of that equation is being curious about

ourselves. Right? And and that can be a

sort of high-spirited thing to do of,

you know, what is there in me that runs

through all the things that I do? How is

it that I feel so different doing one

thing than another? What are the common

threads of me that run throughout my

life? You know, this is this is a great

way to approach what's going right in

us, right? To be curious about

ourselves. And it's from there that it's

easier to see, wow, in one certain kind

of situation, I'm really not doing as

well. Right? Or I'm not as happy. Like,

then we can think about that and we

don't have to be afraid of it. So,

bringing curiosity to ourselves, what

runs through everything we do, and also

how we're different in different

situations, can help lead us to all

sorts of answers about what makes us

happy and what doesn't. When are we

presenting a true and honest self? When

are we presenting a false self that even

we know is false. So, I think the only

crucial ingredient is curiosity and and

then we can approach with seriousness

and gravity or we can approach with

light-heartedness. We can be alone or we

can be thinking with someone else.

There's all sorts of good places that

curiosity can take us.

It's interesting that you talked about

true self versus false self. Um I think

the more state dependence we have, the

more confusing that becomes, right? And

and I think

perhaps even more so in in this day and

age,

there seems to be not a complete, but at

least to me, a kind of partial erosion

of etiquette. I'm not saying this to

encourage people to be more rigid. It

just seems to me that

I'm 50 now. When I was growing up,

seemed like people would dress and act

one way in one context and dress and act

one way in a different context and

there's some overlap, obviously.

But now, there's this sort of propensity

for

not just oversharing, but there's

information from all corners of the

world coming through our devices all the

time and people are putting out

information about many facets of their

life all the time. Even people I went to

high school with who weren't

public-facing in the traditional sense

are putting up pictures of their kids

and what they ate and this and the the

wins and the losses and

it's a very odd thing to do when in fact

we evolved for so long just kind of

experiencing ourself

separate from all the other activities

that we were doing and certainly that

that other people are doing. In your

clinical practice, are you seeing

more challenges with people creating

separation between kind of aspects of

self and aspects of life because of all

the the the information coming at them

and and maybe even that they're putting

in the world?

I think it can be different depending

upon what the person is doing, how

they're using that information. So, so

if you think of falseness of of self,

you know,

it's possible a person can be engaged in

something that that even they themselves

know isn't real, right? So, so wanting

everyone to see what's what's best in my

life and to and to think that, you know,

I'm doing really well, you know, and and

maybe I'm doing that to hide something.

Like, why am I doing that, right? If if

I want to appear externally differently

than than how I am, there's a good place

for curiosity about the falseness of

that. What am I trying to protect

against? You know, why is it that I want

people to see me in a certain way that

might be different from how my life

actually is if it has, you know, not

just all wins in it, right? But but you

know, stressors too that might not be as

glamorous. So, so that's one way we can

use those resources. Another way can be

to engage in ways that are more true to

self. So, someone who has an interest or

a passion that it's hard to find people,

you know, right around them, uh but they

can find that more distantly. Or or

people who have a lot of sensibility and

compassion for for some of the difficult

things in the world who can find kindred

spirits through social media. So, so I I

think we can use or misuse anything

around us to to either be we can use it

to be closer to ourselves and and to

have a stronger sense of self, right? Or

we can use it to distract from who we

really are and to maybe find solace

somewhere else or find accolades

somewhere outside of us because we're

protecting against something. So, I I

think the the important point is is

always to be honest with ourselves. And

if we bring compassionate curiosity,

then we're not mad at ourselves and that

we're not coming at ourselves of, what's

wrong with me or why why can't I do this

thing better or that thing better or why

don't people like me more? Whatever it

may be, right? There there there are

ways that we can

you know, we can guide ourselves away

from from honesty and truth. And if we

look at ourselves, we don't have to be

afraid of what we find. Maybe if we're

worried people aren't liking us, we're

we're spending time with not a healthy

group of people, right? Or or maybe

there's something in in myself I need to

change if I'm feeling that. So, the key

is just bringing honesty and curiosity

and not being so afraid or so negative

towards ourselves that we're going to

hide from what it is that that we can

find to knit us together. Yeah, I'm not

trying to demonize social media, but we

are in a strange new version of humanity

where

let's say somebody's sitting by

themselves, chances are

their experience is vastly different

than it would have been 30 years ago

because they are

most likely getting a lot of information

about what other people are doing.

Could be good information.

Um could be interesting, but

nonetheless, it's very very different

alone state. And or they are doing

things that hopefully they enjoy,

but there's this additional layer where

it's put out into the world. This is

very unusual. So, the reason I'm asking

about this in the context of

addressing the self, exploring the self

is that

I wonder to what extent being really

happy with oneself

at some level involves being able to

be curious and explore different ways of

being and ways of thinking

without the impulse of sharing that and

without the

feedback comparison

of what other people are doing.

Because

>> [clears throat]

>> the moment we see something else,

there's more sensory input or the moment

that we think what we're doing it needs

to be shared, it changes the experience.

It's not truly an alone experience.

Right. Uh and I don't think it matters

if you put it out to one

follower or to a billion followers, it's

it's still externalizing this thing that

for thousands of years was just us with

our thoughts, us with our emotions. And

And so, processing time alone has

become, I believe, a very, very

different thing altogether.

Yeah, I think that's true. I think

there's a sweet spot of connectedness to

others. Right? And we know that it's not

good to have too little, right? That

that isolation isn't good for us. But

But where the modern world has gone is

is it is offers us too much the the

opposite, right? Where there's not

enough aloneness. Where if we're

overconnected, then in order to to to

decide what it is we even like or

prefer, how we feel about things, we're

looking for external cues. Right? So,

that sweet spot of having some external

check-ins, how does the world around me

feel? How do people I like and trust

feel? How do people who seem like me

feel? How do people who seem different

from me feel? It It's good to have those

tests outside, but have enough aloneness

that I am still thinking about myself

and the questions, right, of of life,

the questions of my own life, I'm

thinking about on my own before I'm

pinging outside of me for you know, for

information or validation or even

guidance.

I'm willing to bet that many people will

find just the

being alone introspective process to be

pretty anxiety-provoking.

Um in fact, there's been a little bit of

a

um semi-comedic exchange online recently

because uh

um actually our mutual

uh friend David Senra and David Senra

has a podcast with this very podcast

production company.

Um

He sat down with Marc Andreessen of, you

know, founded Netscape, a16z

investments. And Mark made the statement

that was very provocative, which was,

you know, great men of history didn't uh

sit around thinking about their

thoughts, you know? And And of course, I

knowing Mark, um and he's a friend of

mine, I I I think that was a bit

tongue-in-cheek. I think he was

I think he was pointing toward, I don't

want to speak for him, but I think he

was pointing toward the idea that too

much thinking and not enough doing can

be self-destructive. Of course, the

media ran with it and in classic

Andreessenian fashion, he

just doubled down and tripled down on

that message, which was fun for a while,

actually, because it got people thinking

about the role of introspection versus

the role of doing.

And

I have to say I think what he

contributed with those statements,

however provocative,

um

were

useful in thinking like, how much

thinking, how much doing when exploring

the self. We don't want to spiral into

a tunnel that we can't get out of.

But we also want to make sure that we're

putting things out into the world. So,

when you have a patient that is not

depressed, is um maybe just struggling,

right? Um so, no no clinical issue that

needs dealing with first.

How much do you encourage them to

explore the self through doing versus

thinking about their thinking?

It depends very much on who is that

person, right? And And And where do they

need to face to sort of break new ground

of self? And you you know, you mentioned

that most people would find the idea of

just being with themselves to to be

anxiety-provoking. And I think that

that's unfortunate. I think that comes

from a lack of leadership in the mental

health field and then the stigma of

mental health and and our fears, those

black box fears that we don't

understand. So, we're afraid of what we

don't understand. What we don't

understand is ourselves. So So, then the

idea of being with ourselves becomes

very anxiety-provoking.

And I think that's not good. I I I think

there are ways that we can go about

being with ourselves that we don't have

to be afraid of and say, if I if I do

that, hey, it's going to be interesting

what I'm going to find, right? And And

the reflection and the thoughts and the

ideas, the learning that comes from it

is going to guide me towards the best

balance for me. Right? So, there are

some people who are very assertive,

right? And they want to have high levels

of doing in the world, but they still

need some reflection. Right? There are

other people who are going to be very

reflective and they're going to be doing

less. One

We need to understand what profile works

for for one person. It's not one exact

place, but we kind of have a profile of

reflection and of doing. And if if we

are well-balanced, where we're asserting

ourselves in the world at levels that

work for us and we're finding pleasure

and gratification in ways that are

healthy, now we're finding balance. If

there's too much doing and not enough

reflection, not a lot of good will come

from that. We won't We'll find that

there's diminishing returns. We feel

unsatisfied, right? Because we're doing

too much and we're maybe taking less

pleasure in what we're doing. But if

we're doing too little, then, you know,

we can feel idle and there can be a

sense of learned helplessness. So, it's

finding what is the optimal range for a

person to be asserting themselves in the

world and then finding gratification in

what they're doing. And if that's going

well, we'll see it. There There's a

happy, balanced person. And if not,

we'll be able to figure it out. Of what

what is going on in that person? Is

there an issue somewhere saying the

unconscious mind, right? Are they

asserting more and too much and

reflecting too little? Right? So, by

looking at the person and going through

these steps, we can figure out what what

serves that person best and how might

they adjust from where they are now to

get there?

Is it true that there are just some

people who just don't really think about

their thinking very much? They just like

do stuff. I mean, I've had friends say

that, like, I don't

I'm not I don't want to speak for me. I

I'll speak for them. They'll say that

they don't

think about their thinking. They just

get up in the morning and they brush

their teeth and they use the bathroom

and they go about their day and they

they're not very introspective. They're

They're not um they're not called to

think about their thinking.

And in some cases, these are people who

are extremely busy, so maybe that's one

reason. But in some cases, there are

people who just

you know, for whatever reason that that

the mirror doesn't pop up in their

cortex. It It It's they're busy doing

and observing and then they seem

functional. Are they missing out on on

something fundamental or is that maybe

even the goal? I I ask this from a very

selfish perspective because growing up,

I thought, how cool would that be to

just like go through life, just do

stuff, not think about stuff from the

past too much, not reflect too much,

just like get stuff done. And I And I'm

a get-'er-done kind of person, but I I

think like most people, I also

I also

I'm forced to think about my thinking

from time to time.

When you say forced,

what then forces you

>> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously

happens. I I reflect. Like, and the

reflections usually I'll try and

generalize these cuz it's This is not

about me. The reflections generally come

from

like,

is that something I should explore?

Like, is that a problem? Is the way I'm

thinking about or doing that a problem?

Or is the way that they're thinking

about and doing something a problem?

This us-them thing is it it it is kind

of what it boils down to and it's either

positive or negative. I confess I don't

really sit around a lot and think about

all the things going right. I should. I

have a gratitude practice.

I generally don't sit around and think

like, oh, like the the walls are up and

the ceiling is intact and I'm fed and

I'm healthy. And of course, until

something bad happens and then we start

doing we do our inventory, Right. Right.

But yeah, I just kind of wonder whether

or not there's a spectrum of of of

reflexive self-exploration. People have

different reflective capacity and people

have different reflective interest. So,

there are people who have more and that

could serve them well to be more

self-aware, but but also people may have

less reflective capacity, but be more

naturally generative. And then they're

just moving forward. So, the question

is, even though we have different um

natural levels [clears throat] of of

reflective inclination, right? Are we

happy? Are our lives going well? If life

is going well and that person is, you

know, they're healthy, they have good

mental health and secure relationships

and and life is going well and they're

not reflecting very much, like, that

sounds good. How I would characterize

that is they're living through the

generative drive, right? They're They're

being productive, contributory people in

the world. They're making the world

better. They're learning. They're

growing. So, they're making themselves

better. And they're just moving forward.

That's a great way to be. For most of

us, in order to get there, we do have to

be reflective. And And some of what will

will happen is it will come to us. You

said you're not kind of planning maybe

to sit down and be reflective, but but

then it comes to you, hey, I should

think

this possibility at hand and what are

other people thinking and if how's that

impacting what I'm thinking. So, you

become reflective because your brain is

leading you there, right? Because it's

it's saying, hey, we need to we do need

to stop and and think about things.

That's how we're going to make better

decisions. So, our brains will lead us

to reflection. But if we're moving so

fast or we're defended against it,

right, then we're not reflective and

that's not good for us. And that's how

you could see, for example, someone

who's always busy, so they don't have

time to reflect. But But the the the big

question is, is that person happy?

Right? If that person is not happy and

they're complaining and they feel like

they're working and never getting

anything out of it or never getting any

reward, then it's it's not good that

they're not reflective, right? They're

blocking themselves from something that

they need. There are spectrums that that

apply differently to different people

and we all reside on different parts of

the spectrum, whether it's reflective

capacity or it's assertion or it's

pleasure. But in terms of what we're

doing and whether it's healthy for us is

it's different for for we're each and

all unique. So, we have to stop and look

at ourselves. Like, hey, how's this

going for me, right? How am I

functioning and is it working

for me, right? Is it Am I pausing and

thinking enough? Maybe the answer is

yes. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm

not sure. But But if I'm not happy, let

me go back and revisit that question.

So, this curiosity of self can lead us

to, oh, how am I built to function? Am I

functioning in a way that really works

for me? If not, why not? What change

might I bring? And And here again, we're

using the ability to understand and to

go through a process to to make our

lives better.

I realize these aren't clinical terms,

but someone recently said uh about

themselves that they are an external

processor. They need to talk things

through in order to understand what's

going on for them and

make decisions.

And that implies that some people are

internal processors. Is that true? Do

you see that in your practice that some

people do best by

like

thinking, sitting and thinking, walking

and thinking, driving and thinking, like

kind of working things through, and

other people actually work it out by

talking either to you or to um to their

friends or family, some trusted person.

Is that really are those two probably

not completely separate, but at least

semi separate bins of people? I don't

know that they're separate bins of

people. I I I think that the ability to

think and and to be objective in our

thinking differs among people. What

happens often is we get stuck in our own

minds, so then we're thinking, but we're

not thinking productively, right?

Because we get stuck in our own loops.

And and when we take the thought process

outside of us, so if we write the words

down or if we say the words, we say the

words to another person, then we're

bringing different brain processes

online, different error checking

processes online. So some of us can do

more of this inside and say, "Hey, you

know, I've been thinking about this for

a while and nothing's different or

nothing's going better. Like is there a

different way I can is there a way I can

think about it that's that's new or

that's different?" Right? Sometimes we

can do that, but a lot of times we just

get stuck inside of ourselves and we

have to bring different brain processes

online, like making words and putting

those words out there in in writing or

in speech is different. It so holds the

brain more accountable. That's why I

sometimes will just say something out

loud or we'll say something to someone

else and say, "Oh, I figured that out."

Or "Thanks for helping me figure it

out." And you might realize all you did

was listen, right? Cuz just by being

there, the other person is forming

words, you know, we we do more due

diligence inside of ourselves that way.

I must

confess I'm I'm fascinated by this

notion of uh

people differing in their

tendency to work things out internally

and then bring that forward into the

world. Maybe for more

help or

you know, some additional solutions

um or maybe just they made they've

figured it out. So they're bringing

a version of self into the world that is

um

vetted by them.

Yes.

>> I I I notice I tend to respect that

picture, Mhm. but I realize that's not

necessarily the way it always works. I

had a conversation with my sister this

morning. And um

I love my sister. We're we're quite

close. And

And what There was no friction, but the

direction she was taking what we were

talking about and

the direction I was taking it, they

weren't aligned.

And so we kind of did a little bit of

our brother-sister pushback and this

kind of And then at some point we both

realized that we we we weren't aligned

with the other person.

And we kind of arrived at this overlap

in the Venn diagram. And that's when it

was like, "Okay, there's some real

clarity that came to something

important."

And I thought like, "How cool is that?"

Right? She has her way of doing things.

I have my way of doing things. I don't

think I could have gotten there without

that conversation.

And yet it for the two-thirds Sorry, I

won't say her name for her own privacy,

but for two-thirds of the conversation

I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh god,

this is like this is already difficult

thing made more difficult by the fact

that there's this other picture of it

and then a version of it that she's

extra And But then boom, you hit this

convergence. And that's real synergy,

right? I certainly couldn't have come up

with that on my own.

So while I say I place value on the

internal processor, I I know with

certainty I could not have gotten there

if I hadn't actually felt and met the

friction of what she was bringing

forward and her willingness to bend a

bit and my willingness to accept a bit.

Right, cuz you're doing something

together. Right? You're doing something

together that that involved real and

open communication, so you have to be

able to say, "Hey, this is how I think

and feel." And put that out there and

test it and bounce it off the other

person and take inside what the other

person thinks and said. There's a really

complicated process there, which is how

human beings come to understand one

another or come to agree or come to a

place where where there's

um a way forward even if there isn't

complete agreement. Right? We have to do

these things outside of us. Most often,

if we're going to be at our healthiest,

we do want to be able to do some of it

inside, right? It's a good place to

start and we can do that alone with

ourselves. And and you know, we've we're

talking about reflective capacity and

inclination, but none of us knows how to

do something we haven't been taught to

do. Right? So so very often we haven't

had a

a way of going inside, of saying, "Well,

I'm going to think about myself and I

want to do that productively." And and

part of what I'm trying to bring to the

fore is that there are ways of going

about being with yourself, thinking

about yourself, thinking within yourself

that can lead us towards progress at

least and sometimes answers. And if

we're doing that, we can probably all do

more of that than we're doing. And if

we're given a way to do it where we

think, "Okay, this works for me. I'm

actually learning about myself while I'm

doing this and I'm bringing a vetted

self. I'm bringing my best self to what

I'm going to find outside of me." And

and that may be collaboration with

another person, right? It may be talking

with another person and coming to some

middle ground when there isn't

agreement. So if we start with ourselves

and we're able to to reflect and to

bring self-understanding to the fore,

we're much much stronger, right? In a

good way, not stronger in that we're

going to force our way through things,

but we're much stronger in terms of both

self-knowledge and ability to be

flexible when we're out in the real

world meeting other people.

Yeah, I think it

to me

um the

picture of internal processing

um

people

is one that and maybe I've seen too many

movies um

and shows from my childhood, but that

the picture is one of Okay, people who

internally process bring the best

version of themselves forward. They

don't burden other people,

but

I think by now we understand as a

culture that that person

while

traditionally was kind of revered, this

is a kind of a male-centric phenotype

here, picture that I'm drawing. It could

be about a woman as well. There's also

this idea that they're a little bit

disconnected from all the chatter.

But in my mind I have this

belief like if people are externally

processing a lot that

they're also revealing their

uncertainty. And that that's not a good

thing

to reveal to the world.

And again, this

probably reflects my age and the times

when I was raised and a bit about the

culture in my family, et cetera, but um

but I think in general that's

that's

like we never really talk about like

strong silent type, but lazy.

>> [laughter]

>> Right? Like we're thinking strong silent

and therefore getting stuff done. Right?

Like the the the the tacit message there

is strong and silent, so they're not

burdening other people with their

internal stuff. We also assume that

people who process internally are

actually processing, that they're not

just sitting there. I used to joke, you

know, "What's my bulldog Costello

thinking about?" And I I know this isn't

true, but I used to think it was

like noise. Like maybe he was just

sitting there white noising

white experiencing the world as white

noise. I mean, I don't know what he was

thinking about.

Could have been quantum physics. Um I

doubt that, but it could have been quite

And if it was, you know, He was good at

keeping a secret.

>> Exactly. Right. Yeah, and and the

picture actually works cuz he he was a

big kind of stoic dog. He had his joyful

expression, but there's something about

this notion of somebody that processes

internally

that gets a lot done.

And maybe even serves others, although

uh more than somebody who's processing

externally. And it's hard to probe this

area without kind of setting up natural

gender stereotypes here. You know, I

think the stereotype is that women

externally process more than men.

I don't know that that's actually true.

It just might be that men

process less overall. I mean, who knows?

I don't know what anyone else is

thinking. Half the time I don't know

what I'm thinking. So

do you think that people who hold it in

more

are coming to a greater understanding

and get more done in the world than

those that externally process? No, I

think not not necessarily. I I think

what's best for us is a balance. And

again, it's going to be different for

each person, but there has to be a

balance of things that I know and

understand inside of myself that um that

aren't up for question, that I am sure

of and resolved about. So it might be a

a line not to cross because because it's

a certain moral boundary. I know how I

feel about it and I know where I am I

know how I feel and I know where I

stand. So it's just one one example.

There are issues of self that we want to

feel very resolved, you know, how I want

to treat people in the world and how I

want to be treated, you know, for

example. It's good to know those things

inside of us, but it is good to then

test externally about how we're

interfacing with the world. If too much

internal processing can be too

self-referential and now I may think

that how I think it should be is

actually how it should be because I

haven't tested outside of me and I

haven't done enough of that testing to

see a lot of other people feel

differently than me. And and this isn't

a a moral point where I feel sure about

how I feel is actually more gray in it

that I than I might have thought as an

example. So there there has to be a

balance. I mean, it's always been this

way for humans, a balance of what we we

discern and know inside, but bringing

that vetted self to the world means that

the vetted self also knows that it

doesn't know everything, right? And it's

testing in the outside world to learn

what is it that other people are

thinking. Can I learn from that? So so

bringing an openness is also very

important about a lot of things. So I

think that no one way of being is

better. I think we all need a balance.

That balance is going to differ, and it

involves knowing things about ourselves

and feeling resolute and also having the

humility to face the world with openness

and and realizing there's a lot of

things I may think I know or think I

know exactly how something is or how

something should be, but but let me hold

on for a second and kind of check that

with the outside world so that I don't

become too self-referential where we can

become, you know, we can become bigoted

or prejudiced. I mean, those can be

outcomes, or we can just just step a

little bit in into it ignorance that

there that there's more in the world

than our own opinions.

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Vering towards some questions about

physiology and how it relates to all

this, but

um

I want to just peel back one more layer

on this kind of

you know, admittedly, you know, extreme

example of kind of

I don't want to use strong silent. I

want to be internal internal processor,

external processors. Um and and I I

actually right now I'll try and

disintegrate the the strong silent type

because people immediately default to

male, and I'm not doing that for

political correctness, but I think about

my graduate advisor, uh Barbara Chapman,

um incredibly smart person, and our

chair of department years ago, my chair

of department years ago, described her

perfectly when he said, "She's quiet,

but not shy."

Uh-huh. So she could sit and be in a

room and observe and pay attention, and

when she spoke, you really did get the

sense that it counted, high

signal-to-noise, because she wasn't one

to chatter much. Right. There does seem

to be this assumption

that if people are talking a lot,

that there's a lot going on in there all

the time, and some of it's just getting

out.

And that if people are quiet, that it's

either more regulated or there's not a

whole lot going on in there,

right? And I think my chairman's mention

about my graduate advisor really woke me

up. I thought, "You're right. She's

really quiet, but she's not shy. She's

not afraid to speak. She's very

organized and and deliberate in what she

says." Mhm. And it I can't say it was

always a value. Forgive me, Barbara. You

know, she's passed away, but like it

sometimes it was just, you know, casual

talk, but you did get the sense like

she's a thinker.

It's not white noise in there. Mhm.

And you do sometimes get the sense

that people who are constantly,

you know, sending words out into the

world, that it has an anxiety component.

It doesn't necessarily seem that

organized, but you and I are both men.

I'm sure many people know people who are

hyperverbal, but very structured Mhm. in

their hyperverbalness.

Right. So I I I guess I'm asking this

because I I want to kind of break down

the the notions of quiet versus verbal.

Introspective necessarily means

um calm.

Like

I mean,

so many assumptions around all this.

None None of None of it is necessarily

true, and the reason I'm I want to I'm

so genuinely curious about this is

I think that most of the world is

confronted with this Marc Andreessen

provocative question like, "How much

time should we spend in here, and how

does it serve us when we're out here in

the in the rest of the world?" Mhm. And

vice versa. Mhm. Like like

[clears throat] if we're just talking

talking talking doing all day,

maybe we are processing, and we can be

peaceful inside. Lay our head down, and

that's it. It's all out there, for

better or worse. But for us, it's great.

Yeah. But there's this assumption that

there's that we're constant whatever we

see is also happening internally.

Yeah, I think we have to just be very

very wary of of either mapping some

stereotype like this is good and that's

not good and applying some value system

to it when we're outside of looking at a

person in a context, right? Because all

of those things, you know, being

internalized, speaking less or being

hyperverbal, they could mean anything,

you know, anything under the sun. It has

to be who is the person and what is the

context. So if you're describing Barbara

Chapman in meetings, right? I interpret

that as she's she's communicating

judiciously,

right? She's in a place where maybe

sometimes people say excess things

because they're self-aggrandizing or

they want to bring something up or they,

you know, they're trying to guide a

conversation one way or another, and you

think, "No, that that's a place for

where less is more, right? We're not

doing that." And just communicating

about something that matters when it

matters. So wow, that's

judiciously. I mean, that's what it

tells me about her. I don't know if her

mind was going a mile a minute inside or

if there was, you know, a calm and

equanimity, but but I think who that

person was and what that situation was

was very was adaptive, right? Same thing

if there's someone who's speaking a lot,

but you know, they just have a lot of

ideas, and they're really constructive

ideas, and they're talking to people

about those ideas, and they're

enthusiastic, and it's helpful. Well,

that sounds good to me, right? That

sounds very different than someone who's

hyperverbal and they're talking, but you

you know, you can tell they're saying

the same thing, but coming from a

different angle, and they're anxious,

and they may want validation, right? So

so the person and the context makes all

the difference. I mean, we we want to be

able to identify, you know, when a

person might fit a certain profile,

right? You know, there are people who

are quiet because they said they're

strong and they're silent and there's

not a lot going on inside, but they're

resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person,

right? But we shouldn't assume that that

someone is that way until we've looked

at who is that person and what is the

context in which we're assessing them.

We're human, so we fit patterns, right?

But we're all unique, so you won't know

what pattern we may be fitting until you

really look at us.

One thing I love about your book is you

have probe questions. You you have

questions for people to ask themselves

Thank you. to explore the self.

And I think for me, that was a is a huge

gift of of the book and and the work in

it. You know, when I got to see an

advance copy, I was like, you know,

obviously, you understand the theory and

the science, and you're a clinician, but

for me, um like, "Okay, what do I ask

myself?

And how do I go about doing that? How do

I figure out what's going right as a at

least

as a stepping stone to maybe exploring

what's not going right, but certainly to

really understand where my strengths

might lie." And I think that's a it's a

really unique gift because I think that

um we don't have enough of that. I think

we have a lot of "What's going wrong?

Where are the friction points? What's

wrong with me?"

kind of stuff. Right.

>> And what's wrong with the world?

And I think starting from that place of

really knowing what the questions are to

ask oneself is uh

I just personally found it immensely

useful. Yeah. You know, and I realize

we're we're mainly discussing theory and

and um at up until now, although I'm

about to ask you a very practical

question, which is

assuming no pathology, no um

life-crippling anxiety or depression, or

panic, how much do you think people

should try and adjust their, what I

call, the autonomic set point? Like,

some people are just more,

you know, expressive with their hands,

with their words. They they want to move

a lot more, and if they don't, it makes

them anxious. Right.

>> Other people are more still.

And we, again, assume that if they're

physically still, that things are

probably a bit more still internally,

and that's not necessarily a bad thing,

but

there is a lot of emphasis, including on

this podcast, on

learning to sit with stress, learning to

sit with anxiety,

and not just letting it out or

experiencing it. And sometimes I wonder,

despite knowing the immense value of

those tools, I mean, I've benefited so

much from things like non-sleep deep

rest and meditation and things like

that, and I know others have as well,

but

I mean, how much should we be trying to

control our states?

I I do wonder if it's good for us um to

think that there's something wrong for

us if we feel a certain way.

Period.

I mean, controlling our states in order

to help us be at our best is different

from trying to control our state so that

we change ourselves, right? So so if you

you're finding

a deep state of peace that's not sleep,

right? You find oh that helps you be a

better you, right? That finding that

peace just say it gives you some

groundedness and you feel healthier for

it and you're better able to solve

problems. So you know, you're learning

something and doing something because it

serves you well and it helps you be at

your best. Right? That's different than

thinking oh I need to be different,

right? If a person thinks well I need to

be different then I need to be calmer or

more more peaceful. What does that What

does that mean? And is that person

imposing something external on

themselves? So there are people who are

very active and and yes, you could they

can sit quietly sometimes, right? But

they're not really built for it, right?

They're they're active people and it

works for them to be active and they may

be quite meditative when they don't seem

to be quite meditative, right? They can

be doing something and and we see a lot

of movement in them but but inside they

can be in a meditative state. So it's

it's so easy for for us to

it's well-meaning in that we're trying

to understand, right? We're trying to

understand ourselves and we're trying to

understand others and we're trying to

find patterns but but it's so tempting

to think that we know something, right?

Because we're just observing someone in

a certain state or we're observing

someone talking or not talking, right?

So what does that mean and we have to

ask the right questions, right? In order

to get there. So so the only way we

really know the answer is for a person

is we have to understand that person and

we have to understand their context. So

we must ask the right questions, you

know, you you had talked about trying to

write practical routes of approach to

ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm

doing that because you know, think of if

someone wanted to learn physics. So

would you say well, just stop, go

somewhere and think about physics,

right? Like no, there there has to be a

route of approach of saying well, well

here's some of the basic knowledge, you

know, think about this, approach that

way,

read from this book and then that book,

right? Like there are ways that we are

guided in how to learn things and it's

interesting that we don't have these

guides for what's most important, which

is learning about ourselves. So it

brings us back to why it can make us so

uncomfortable, so anxious is okay, we're

going to sit with ourselves. well, sit

with yourself and and you know, learn

horticulture. It's like well, I don't

know, like I'll sit with myself but but

you have to help me

you have to help me figure out how to

learn that or I'm going to feel anxious

about sitting there if I don't know how

to go about it, right? So so if we have

the prompts to look at ourselves now,

what we're doing is we're making it

real. We're asking the right questions

of ourselves to think oh what how do I

function? What does work well for me?

You know, how do I think of myself? How

do others think of me? Am I introverted

or extroverted? Am I combination of

both? Do I sometimes feel in one state

and sometimes in another? Is it working

for me, right? Is it working for me in

the big picture? Are there parts of the

small picture that work for me or things

I really don't like or things where I

really don't feel uncomfortable? Now

we're bringing curiosity and yes, we we

want to learn from patterns and and

learn from all the knowledge we have of

the world but we're taking that and

saying hey, none of that actually means

anything until it's directed towards

me if I'm the person reflecting about

myself or if it's a helping process,

we're helping a friend or or you know,

we're in a therapy process. You know, we

have to take everything that we know and

then it's all seen through the lens of

that person. And we we have to do it

that way or we'll lead ourselves astray.

If you're willing, um I'm curious about

uh

throwing out a sort of a generic

clinical session

example.

Let's assume

you know something about the family

background of a patient and there's

nothing glaringly obvious in the

background about trauma or maybe there

is but you know, that there's nothing

really to dig into there just yet and

the person comes to you and says

yeah, I don't know. I'm like I'm like

work is okay but this and so-and-so at

work at that and I guess this is good

and

you know, and they're I don't know,

they're dating, they're in their life

and I swear I'm not trying to get a free

therapy session here. I'm I'm just

trying to imagine so someone says, you

know, and then like the news is really

bothering me and that you know, and

just kind of recording. Right. You

observe

human patterns. I mean, your pattern

recognition is presumably oriented

towards where there's emotion, where

there's patterns in them, how it matches

to templates that only you could harbor

the same way that a really amazing

neurosurgeon would look into the brain

and see

pattern of

epileptic seizure and would be like

okay, this is even without remembering

those specific cases, I know which

direction to go at this to explore.

When you hear all that stuff

and the stuff I'm talking about here is

deliberately meant to reflect what you

see a lot of on social media. Upset

about that political team, upset about

that political team. My life is this but

this but this but

what does that tell you? And what does

it tell you specifically about where

that person should invest effort into

thinking or doing? I realize it's

impossible to give it a pan prescriptive

here but like what does that mean when

somebody's just really absorbed by all

the things going on around them and

things feel good but Mhm. Mhm. Where do

you start to probe and where do you

start to

encourage them at least until the next

session? The way to probe is to

encourage reflection, right? Because

with what you said, I think well, I'm

hearing somebody reporting, right? It's

like they're just telling me the news,

right? Of what went on. I'm doing this,

I'm doing that. I feel this way,

that way, that way, did that. It's kind

of an inventory or a laundry list,

right? So what it makes me think is

I wonder how much of that you're really

choosing.

Right? Or how much of that is is

intentional or how much of that is just

a reflex? The behaviors that in their

life, how much of it they're choosing or

how or they're reporting?

No, the the behaviors. How much of what

they're reporting? Like how much of that

are you really choosing? Right? How much

of that is what you want to be doing?

How much of that is working for you?

Right? What we're trying to do then and

what I want to do then is

is encourage like to have some interest

in examination of like whoa, why am I

doing all of this, right? Maybe some of

this I really like and I am interested

in and others of it I'm just doing

because it's habit or it's routine. I

don't even know why I'm doing it or you

know, if I'm dating, who am I dating?

Why why am I dating? How am I choosing?

Is that is that also just something that

I do? How much am I just kind of along

for the ride of what I'm doing that just

has forward momentum versus what am I

really choosing? Now if we stop and we

look at it that way, what are you really

choosing and and also what's working for

you? Now we're we're off to the races of

an examined life and you know, we we see

this as I know you know, we do a lot of

intensive work. We do it with

individuals, we do it with couples where

we try and move this process forward

very very very very

rapidly of looking at one's own life and

it's very interesting that sometimes you

know, by midway through the second day

of an intensive process, the person

wants to revisit almost everything. They

realize, you know, 10-20% of of all

those things I just said I this is what

I do, right? That I really I really

value and and I want to be doing more of

the others I'm not so sure of.

Right? I don't know why I'm doing some

of those things. Now and we we are we're

really along the process of change

because we're looking at ourselves and

it may seem strange that someone would

see the 80% of what I just told you I

do, I don't know if I want to do or if

it's working for me but that happens all

the time when when we're not examining

our lives, they just kind of run forward

and we accumulate what we accumulate,

right? And and it's like well, this is

what we we are because this is what I've

accumulated by, you know, grabbing and

carrying with me as I'm moving through

life and there's not an organization to

it. So so this idea that we must examine

our lives is at the the heart of all of

this. That's how we we keep mental

health and our structure of self and in

our function of self. We keep our

drives in balance. We set ourselves on a

path where where we are in a place to to

meet future challenges from the best

health we can have and also to to meet

future opportunities. So just like we

want to do with our physical health,

right? We want to build good physical

health. Likewise, we want to build good

mental health. When that's the best way

to be when life throws us whatever curve

balls come our way and it's also the

best way to have a good life, to be on

the front foot of life. But we need to

examine ourselves and we need a process

and a structure in order to build good

mental health the way we go build good

physical health and ultimately that's

how we build good health.

So what I'm hearing is in order to gain

more agency over any areas of our life,

we have to ask the why question. Why am

I doing what I'm doing now and why

aren't I doing this other thing that

perhaps would serve me better? Like it

the it starts with questions

of self.

What do you do and this must be

incredibly frustrating, at least it

would be to me. What do you do if

someone you say well,

why aren't you know, the person says

well, I know I should work out but I

don't and you say well, why not? You

know, and they say well, I don't know,

I'm tired. I know I should

then you say well,

you know,

why do you still hang out with

Sharon when you always come back from it

feeling totally exhausted and feeling

like you've just said all this stuff to

me. You know,

you know, I don't know like what do you

how do you work past the the person

who's just kind of like this is just

life. This is just this is just what

life requires. I got to work, I got my

friends. Like what am I going to do?

Overhaul my life, you know, and uh and

and I this probably varies by region and

by generation the extent to which people

are willing to like look at things and

think and and kind of spin them around

like rotate the cube as I like to call

it and look at it from underneath a bit

and just as a practice. Like just some

people that's okay. Cool. You know, I'll

I'll you know, play the no one listens

to albums anymore, but the same way they

used to, but I'll play the album in

reverse for a bit.

Maybe it'll give me something different.

Maybe it won't. Maybe people are like,

"Ah, that's the album." Like that's just

how I do it. So, how do you get somebody

to do this? And of course, I'm not

asking you to

tell us this so that people can

play therapist with others, even though

they they naturally do. I'm asking this

because hopefully this is what people

will do for themselves. Well, if someone

is talking in the way of the the person

you described, right? We're saying,

"Well, this is just what I do." And and

they're describing, I think you said,

"Every time they go out with Sharon,

they come home and they feel kind of

drained. They don't feel good." Then

they move on to something else and and

to something else. They might talk about

their job and, you know, something

that's frustrating them all the time and

and they just keep going forward. Then I

might say, "Well,

what you're what you're doing is you're

showing both of us where the X's are,

you know, the X's mark the spot, right?

To dig, right? So, you're you're you're

showing us, "Hey, here's where there's

some treasure, right? Let's dig where

this X is." So, so if you're going out

with someone and and every time you see

that person, you come home and you feel

a sense of lethargy and you feel a sense

of time wasn't well spent and you kind

of feel hopeless. Well, it's really

important to to think about why you're

doing that, right? And I would link it

to something else. So, I might say, "So,

you know, you'd said earlier on a couple

of sessions ago that you really want to

find a partner. You really want to find

a good relationship." So, so that's

important to you. You told me that it

was. And now you're telling me that, you

know, you you keep seeing this person

where you know every time you go out the

front door that nothing good is going to

come of it and you're going to come back

feeling worse than than when you left.

Like we should look at why. And we don't

have to be scared to look at why cuz

this is where the fear comes in. Like,

"Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why

would I be doing that, right?" Somewhere

inside of them that person knows that's

not working for me, but I'm still doing

it. So, there's some fear of looking at

that. So, if we say, "Hey, no harm, no

foul. Like let's just let's think about

why." You know, it may be that that

person really wants that that that

person, in this case I think it's

Sharon. I want Sharon to like them,

right? And and maybe they they feel a

need to be liked. So, they don't like

this person, but they think they need

this person to like them. Maybe. Maybe

they're a person who always takes too

too much care of others versus

themselves and they don't like Sharon,

but Sharon likes them. Right? So, they

don't really want to end that

relationship. Like there's something

going on there because the person is

saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that

absolutely won't get me what I want."

And I'll keep doing it. You say, "Well,

that's not really what you what you

want. If if if you if you are doing it

over and over again, you think you're

going to keep doing it, it's just

because

you know, you haven't felt empowered

enough that here I can understand myself

and I can bring some change so that so

that my behaviors my my choices are

actually in line with my wishes, you

know, with my strivings. So, now we get

that person interested, right? We tell

them that there is an X. Let's

understand why it is that you're still

going out with Sharon, right? There's

got to be something to learn there. And

and there always is. If if we dig where

the X's are, we do get some treasure. It

might be a little, it might be a lot,

but we learn from that and and we bring

that learning to life, the rubber hits

the road as that leads to real life

change.

That makes really good sense and and

thank you for the clarity of that

answer. It brings us back to asking why

to develop more agency around possibly

making different choices. It's not

always I mean it one I guess one could

realize like they they really

they want that kind of relationship, but

with someone else or they want a

completely different kind of

relationship with the same person,

right? Right? And and to work on that.

But it starts with asking questions. I

realize I'm going backwards into this,

but it goes from um

inventories are

a start toward informing what questions

are useful.

Useful questions probe understanding

that hopefully develops more agency.

Do you encourage people once they get to

a point of oh yeah, like maybe I want a

different sort of relationship to this

person or thing or activity in life? Do

you give them specific act action

directives like, yeah, like how about

between this session and next session,

like you go to the gym twice.

You do whatever there.

Maybe watch TV and just like pedal, you

know, on the bike and or maybe you go

and you like really take a course or or

a class rather. Do you tend to give

people clear directives about

what could really help if you sense that

that could really help?

Sometimes, but I think it's much more

effective if it's arrived at

collaboratively. So, so if we decide,

"Hey, you know what would be really

really good?" And we both agree. We

we've talked back and forth now. And if

if you can get to the gym once before

you come back next week, right? And then

we talk about that back and forth. Like

maybe that person wants to go to the gym

five times, you know, before they come

back, but each time they do that, they

get frustrated with themselves and they

don't go at all, right? So, we might

say, "Look, we've been talking about

this." And maybe I'll say it or maybe

the the other maybe the patient will say

it, right? And to say, "Look, I do I do

want to be going to the gym. I want to

be getting exercise. And I see I go

between too much and too little, right?

I go between taking on too much and I

get frustrated and don't do anything.

How about something that's more

measured, okay? Maybe I'll try and go on

Monday and Friday." Making it way beside

Yeah, you know what? Maybe twice is

twice is okay or should it be once?

Right? Because if you get once under

your belt, you can get twice under your

belt the next week. So, we're we're just

trying to understand so there's no

mystery to it and we we know what we're

doing. So, if someone who wants to have

a a different relationship and says,

"Well, maybe I could have a good

relationship with Sharon, but I'd have

to talk to her about A, B, and C that

isn't really going well." Okay, how

might you do that? Right? Like let's

think about it, right? Because that

communication isn't going to happen

unless you bring it and what's keeping

you from that? How might you approach

her in a way that you could really talk?

What's what's holding you back? So,

we're we're trying to problem solve, but

we're doing so in a way that's that's

open where we know what we're doing and

we're not bringing some magic or mystery

to it. We're trying to move ahead and we

understand it's one step at a time and

we want to take those steps. So, we

don't want someone to think often we

want a process of change to occur so

fast that we it can't possibly occur as

fast as we want it to and then we get

frustrated in 2 weeks, right? So, we

have to set reasonable expectations of,

"Hey, it might be could really get

somewhere with this in a couple of

months. It seems like that from our

conversations. What do you think? Are we

We make sure we're on the same page."