What makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life. This is maybe more than

you bargain for Louis do. Our next guest has interviewed everyone. Amani Chicken. It's

a cathedral of poor. That's a little offensive. You're a very fascinating person. How do you

connect with. I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place, why people do

the things that they do.

The question I get asked most often is, how do you not get angry with some of these people,

especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate? If, if people see like your temperature

wrestle intimacies from them, that's never gonna go well. I think also there's some part

we thinks maybe other person's got it figured out, and I haven't.

Your former wife said there's nothing real about you, Jimmy Saville. He also said something

about insincerity being your specialty. That's good. I'm glad you brought that up, . I remember

it vividly. First of all, I neglected my personal life to focus on achieving professional success.

The price was paid by those nearest and dearest to me.

When did you get that feedback? I saw my relationships as a life support system for my kind of work

self instead of the other way around saying to my wife, well, this is what I do. I did

a lot of great segments just by being available at a moment's notice. I just think, oh, this

isn't going well. So it became a bit of an impas.

Is it something that comes with a cost and is it something you want to.

Before this episode starts, I have a small favor task from you. Two months ago, 74% of

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It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've

seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode.

Louie, you're a very fascinating person. Thank you, . And I've, you know, I've, as I've read

through your story, I read your autobiography as well. I was trying to understand what I

needed to understand about your earliest experiences to really understand the man that you are

today. Mm-hmm. . The interesting personality you have and the trajectory you went and took

in your life.

So please enlighten me. What, what, what are the most pertinent things that I need to know

about your earliest years to understand you? Oh my goodness. We could, I, I could, I spent

two hours answering that question on its own. I dunno how interesting it would be. I'll

try and give you a brief answer. I like the long answers.

Oh, do you? Yeah. Well, first of all, my, um, parents are my mom's British. My dad's

American. They are both, um, in, in different respects. So free thinkers, they, they grew

up in the sixties and they embraced aspects of the counterculture. They regarded their

own parents as being in certain respects of limited and cloistered.

And, and, and so my mom joined, uh, VSO volunteer service overseas to get experience of life

in Africa. My dad joined the Peace Corps. He would've been probably enlisted to serve

in Vietnam, and he didn't wanna do that, so he went to teach in Africa as well. And that's

where they met. So I was raised, um, I was born in Singapore where they were teaching.

Uh, my brother was born in, in Uganda where, um, where they were teaching at that time,

my older brother, but then we, they settled in London. And, and so growing up I was conscious

of, of them as people who, who, who really encouraged us to open our minds and maybe,

you know, in, in it was sort 99% positive. Like 1% I think.

Like a lot of people, you know, people use this term social justice warriors right? As

a form of judgment about overly do gooding. Like there there's an element of, I don't

tend to use that term cuz I sort of, it's become, it's been weaponized. But I suppose

in a sense my parents were kind of social justice warriors.

Like they were very much encouraging me to challenge or us to challenge racism where

we saw it to challenge sexism, to be, uh, open to new experiences, not to fall into

easy judgements about other cultures and other countries and other people. And, and, and,

and I only say the 1% sometimes that can be inflected with a little bit of a sense of

superiority.

And I talk a bit about that in my book, A slight feeling that we weren't really like,

quite like other people, you know, other people were maybe not quite as smart or not quite

as literary, you know? And I don't, I don't, you know, I strive not to endorse whatever

is in me. Remains in me of that I try to unpack and eradicate, but nevertheless, that's the

way.

Looking back on it, that's something that I see and pick up on. My dad's a writer, a

novelist. My mom is a, you know, after teaching, uh, my dad became a very successful literary

novelist and travel writer. My mom went on to become a radio producer and worked for

the BBC World Service, which is, for those who don't know, that's the service that broadcasts

all over the world.

And it's, it's a bit like Radio four, but broadcast this tiny language. It's extraordinary

institution. It sort of represents in some ways the best of the bbc. But, um, so I was

growing up sort of aware that we, you know, we were a family that loved books and, and

loved reading and, you know, we watched TV and listened to pop music and did the normal

things.

But I think underneath it was a feeling that to really count in life, um, you should be

a literary writer. Like that was, that was. Without me fully maybe acknowledging it that

was underneath this thing that you should really, I think still my dad probably feels

that, like he's very supportive of me and my TV making, but he's like, Lou, you thought,

have you thought about writing another book?

Lou, you, you, you know, you've got time, you've got the talent. You can, I don't, I

don't wanna push you into this, but Lou, you know, you should think about writing a book.

That's a great idea for a book. You know, that kind of thing. Anyway, so that all of

that was under underlying my attitude to life than they sent me off to, um, school, primary

school.

I'm gonna have to, I mean, you wanted a long answer. This is maybe more than you bargain

for, I suppose alongside that is the, the influence of friends and, and, and, you know,

I can start the, and, and the, so the countervailing impulses of growing up in the seventies and

eighties in South London and being exposed to funny, creative people and my friendship

group.

Which who, you know, met some of them had gone on to work in civilian lives, as, you

know, restaurateurs or, or, or, or you know, music, other stuff. But, but Saliently were,

uh, Adam Bucks and Joe Cornish and another friend, a Sandler who were super creative.

Adam and Joe went on to have their own TV show, and I was conscious of falling in with

a little group, Amelia of, of um, like-minded kids who were very funny, really into movies,

tv.

And that was where I suppose I began to feel that there was, well, you know, I don't wanna

o in hindsight, it's tempting to, um, sort of read back, read back what I do now into

that. But I just know that, that, that friendship group was very important to me and maybe counteracted

some of the more, cuz I was academic.

I was, I was, I did really well at school. I feel I could just go on and on. Should I

go? Should I keep going? I just listen here. Cause the other part of it was that I was,

um, I was quite an anxious child, so I, I would, I would, I worried about everything

and, uh, I, I would think about things that were on the horizon.

Like when I was five or six years old, I remember fixating, you know, there were various things

that came and went that really worried me. But one was, um, the idea of mohole dancing,

which was a big, I dunno if it's still like in, in state primaries. Um, at that time,

Every May holiday like you would do may pole dancing.

What is that, sorry. It's, it's a, it's, it's a, it is an old English or maybe British tradition

where there's a big pole. I think it's like a fertility, right? , you knows to touch a

wicker man about it. You know, it's an enormous kind of ma a pole like maybe like, like a

totem pole almost likes a 20 feet high and then there's ribbons around it.

And as children you would skip round it and you would sort of braid the ribbons together

to form nice patterns. And I remember seeing them doing it in primary school and thinking

like, that looks really hard and I'm gonna have to do that next year and I dunno how

I'm gonna do it. And just, I remember being preoccupied with how am I gonna learn how

to do that?

I only mentioned that as an example. Like there were other things that, just reading

before I could read. I remember seeing my older brother reading and think, I dunno how

you do that. And just getting very worried about it. So in general, my, I'm someone who

is pre, I know everyone worries, but I just feel as though that.

feeling of worry and anxiety was quite a strong background note. And sometimes I would control

my anxiety, not consciously, but again looking back by working hard, like by, by by sort

of just sort of becoming almost like super focused on academic work and um, and as a

result I did very well in school. And um, you know, like those people who look back

and say like, well I was a fuck up in school.

I was the opposite. Like I didn't always, you know, I would get in trouble. Like, and

sometimes I was regarded as, especially when I was younger, 12, 13 as a disruptive element

cuz I was also quite cheeky and sometimes tried to com communicate and connect with

people via teasing. Right. Which is, I don't know if that's a common, it's quite a British

thing in a way.

It's certainly a big thing in my family was. What's now called bans. Right. And sometimes

I try and do bans with my teacher and then it wouldn't go well. And so, but, but in general,

which is confusing, like regarding being regarded as a black sheep in class or a disruptive

person in class. And then, um, but then also getting in trouble.

They said like, it's fine for you to mess about and get in trouble and then you do the

homework and you are fine, but you're a bad influence on the other kids. I used to get

told that you're a bad influence on your, I was like, that's not true at all. Like if

anything, my friends were just as naughty and were leading me astray, but nevertheless,

because I could sort of go home and then become sort of organized and focused on my work,

I got a, I got for a brief period, I got labeled as the troublemaker.

Anyway, going through school, I, I sort of, Sort the, the load stars for my, um, so sense

of who I was and how I would progress in life, such as it is. I mean, I was never that tactical,

but as I went, as I went through school, I thought, well, I'm, I'm pretty good academically.

I guess I'll just do well in exams and stuff and then see what happens.

And meanwhile with my friends, we'd be seeing movies. I got into rap music in the late eighties,

and so we were dressed like a sort of hiphop nerd. I was smoking quite a lot of weed, but

still studying. This was sort of, again, age 16, 17, but it never really interfered with

my, with my work. I went on to Oxford and then having done well at Oxford, um, left

university and, and at that point was like, well, what happens now?

That was when it felt like, okay, now I've no longer really got a clear path. Does that

make sense? Yeah. You know, I think if you. If you are, if you're academic, if you find

academic work, not easy, but you find that you do well at it, cuz it's not easy, but

you apply yourself and you do well at, then sometimes life can be a weird, um, bump in

the road, like real life.

It's something like, well, where are the exams? Because I know I can do those, you know, what

do I do now? So for a while I thought maybe I would be like a professor or an academic

or something, but then something in me told me that wasn't quite right. So then the rest

of life is another story. But I hope that sort of answers your questions about those

different, um, those different, uh, sort of sources of, of how I, you know, whatever it's

personality and interests.

One of the things that really stood out to me in that answer was your, your early relationship

with work. You said you used to work hard to kind of suppress or kind of distract yourself

from the anxiety of life. Is that accurate? Well, what it is, is, um, Well, I, I worried

about things in general and um, you know, one of those worries was homework or doing

well in, in, in school.

Another worry was getting on with my peer group. But, uh, in so far as I can, I could

control those sources of anxiety. Like, you know, I work is actually relatively straightforward,

like in terms of like, how do I get more, you know, how do I attempt to relate to people

better? Well, that's, that's kind of hard.

It's like mysterious. But how do I do well at these assignments I'm being given? Um,

then you just sit down and do them, um, until you get it right. And, and you know, a lot

of these things are. Aren't are subconscious. Like I'm not thinking like, oh, how can I

control my anxiety? But I would just find that I, I I, if, if exams were coming up,

I'd get super anxious.

And, um, and I don't mean to pathologize it, like I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety

disorder. I've just slightly worry prone. And as it happens, I've become less worry

prone as I've grown up. And it may be that there were other things going on, you know,

in my family life, who knows. Um, in, in, you know, my parents' marriage wasn't always

happy.

They subsequently divorced. There were other things that probably were going on that were

stressful, but for whatever reason I found that, or without, almost without meaning to,

I, I would, I took my studies, uh, very seriously. I have to sort of slightly check myself when

I say this cause I do, I'm also aware that I've looked back at some of my reports having

kind of got quite attached to this narrative of myself.

A sort of super swat, right? Super studious. And I've looked at some of my old report cards

and some of them are, are, especially when I'm six or seven, sort of say, um, you know,

Louis's a pleasure to have in class, but I sometimes it would be nice if he would let

other pupils speak. He, he, he enjoys the sound of his own voice kind of thing, which

is very apropo for this podcast.

Probably , you know, and like, so, so I, I, I had a sort of rambunctious side and almost

in social settings, my mum tells a story essentially in my book, but of, of how, when I was about

five or six, I would come home, I'd be really sad, I'd be like, I don't know, I don't think

I don't like school anymore. And she'd sort of think, well, Louis's obviously not getting

on well at school.

I need to talk to his teacher. And she went into to class and um, and talked to the teachers

and said, do you understand Louis's very sensitive. He's a very sensitive young man. As I said,

I would've been maybe five or six, seven years old. And the teachers were like, really? Yes,

he's a very sensitive, like, just be mindful that, you know, things you can say might hurt

his feelings.

Something like that. And they were like struggling to recognize her description of me. And then

on the way out of class, she passed the classroom, could see through one of the glass windows

in the door, and I was running along the desk tops or doing a dance on top of a desk. In

other words, like it was almost like in the setting itself, I was a wild child and, and

she running a muck.

But also I had like this doubling like, then I go home and be kind of be, be worrying about

small, which I think is probably still true of me in some ways that I have a, um, I have

that sort of disruptive trickster impulse alongside certain, um, a certain sensitivity.

Is that defense mechanism or a a a way to, I don't know, survive in a social setting

or is that the true you Are I just who I am and I think, you know, I could say, oh, well

I was a younger child and.

my parents found me funny and I, I wanted to perform and I, I wanted my dad to, you

know, I wanted to get my, the approval of my parents by being silly. But the fact is,

is who knows? Like, I just know that, you know, things like your sense of humor or your

inclination to, to be cheeky. That's just always been in me, you know?

And, you know, I'm slightly wary of attempting to, to sort of, um, unpick where that comes

from, because I just know that's, that's, that's always been in. The relationship with

work. I, I think even for myself, I, I learned my relationship with work at a very young

age and I've, I think I developed quite an unhealthy relationship with work at the expense

of other things that matter in life.

Yeah, me too. I think I can relate to that. And that's what I was trying to understand

is like, when did you, where did your relationship with work come from? On one hand I was guessing

maybe it's from his father who was very, you know, insistent on being an intellectual.

Is a, is success Louis or is it from the distraction of, from anxiety and from the social thing

where you could be successful at exams?

Cause you were good at that, so you double down. I think it was all of the above. Like

my dad's got, both my parents have work ethics that border on the sort of being over the

top. My dad, uh, would, you know, he's a, he's a, as I said, he's a writer and at the

weekend, Like, he didn't really take weekends off.

Like certainly Saturdays he would often be writing and Sunday mornings he was often writing

and, and he, he's an extra. I wanted to give both my parents a shout out. See, I'm, my

parents were, um, were basically first generation university educated, came from very much not

at the high table of life. And, and so for my dad to, to sort of become a wealthy literary

writer, it's kind of an amazing thing that he did, you know, in the world of, you know,

it's one thing to be a popular novelist, that's hard anyway.

To be a, a, a novelist or travel writer who's extremely successful, hadn't, you know, sold

hundreds of thousands or millions of books just, uh, without any leg up in life is an

amazing thing. And, um, I wonder if I've ever told him that. I hope I have. Anyway, he'll

listen to this probably cuz he, he follows my, he follows my career with interest.

So some of that I would've taken on board just through osmosis of seeing that. Likewise,

um, my mom being super studious, going to Oxford, she grew up in Tooting, you know,

and, and her, her sense of self belief, or her sense of her own destiny, whatever it

was. And in her small, you know, peer group of kids who were educated at a state school

and then through her own hard work and the support of her teachers going to Oxford, you

know, in the sixties as a woman, that was extremely unusual.

So that, that was in the air. But in the end, and, and my older brother, who was very studious.

And the other thing just to reflect on is that I saw my brother as the more brilliant

child like he was to, to, the way I saw it at the time was more effortlessly. Brilliant,

like sort of child prodigy material, you know?

And I thought I was just kind of a sort of irrelevant bit of after birth that, you know,

trailed around after him. And so when I noticed that I was getting fairly good results, um,

when I sort of 11, 12, it didn't feel particularly impressive. Like, it felt like, well, I guess

I could, I can do well if I work hard.

It's not like I'm kind of brilliant like my older brother. Um, but I think when I, you

know, again, in hindsight I think mainly what I see is, um, is a sense that I just felt

like this was something I had to do. It wasn't a choice. And I even later on when I was at

university, I sometimes used to worry that, um, I wonder if I'm missing out.

You know, people say it's the best years of your life and you should be hang, you should

be just. Going wild, having fun. And I did a, you know, some of that, but I was also

conscious of like, maybe I'm missing out by working, by studying too hard. That's what

I read in, into your story of university was that I wrote, I actually wrote in my notes,

worked his ass off at Oxford on the point of affection.

This is also something I probably didn't learn from my parents. If I'm honest. I still call

my parents by their first names. Um, did they encourage you to do that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I

just didn't, I didn't learn affection and actually, you know, even growing up at 10

years old when one of my friends turned to me and went, you're my best friend, my body

like, Because the, the idea that's I was someone's best friend made me cringe.

And I had this, I think I had this like emotional intimacy affection issue growing up. Although

I think being a best friend is something you show, but don't say, yeah, , it's a bit creepy.

You're my best friend. Yeah. I remember feeling stressed when a friend said that to me and,

and thinking, uh, because you then you feel like, you say, oh, you are my best friend.

And then it feels a bit inauthentic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. You're like, do it. Don't

say it . You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I love you. It didn't feel necessary to say

on Yeah, exactly. But, but what, what is, what did you learn about affection at a young

age? I, I feel really lucky that my parents, um, I feel as though they were, you know,

they, they worked hard.

Like I had a working mom. My dad was, as I say, had a huge. Drive to be successful, but

I, I always felt like the love that they had for me was just taken as red. Like, I, I never

questioned it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way that felt positive. And

even though, you know, I think there's a tendency or a temptation nowadays to look back and,

and be thinking about things that could have been otherwise.

And I think, you know, parts of that therapy culture are really valid, but there's also

a sense in which, um, you can focus on negative stuff. And I'm not sure at a certain point

how, how healthy or helpful it is. And, and, and so for me, I, I never kind of questioned

like the love, the love that they, they had for me.

And I, it was, it was never the case that I felt I was kind of, um, seeking their approval.

Like I remember friends at school saying, well, my. . My parents say if I do well in

common entrance, they're gonna get me a watch. And I remember thinking, that's quite weird,

you know, or my, my parents never, I never felt like they needed to be I, that I was

in any sense doing like working hard for them.

And if they took an interest, that was kind of a bonus. But I didn't rush to show them

like I got all A's, or you know, I was, I came first in all the exams or whatever. I

wouldn't really talk to them about it. Like that was just something that I did for me.

What about emotional expression? I think that's something that we learn how to say, like,

I love you.

And to hug and to be, to touch and, uh, cause you said bounce, you said? Yeah, like I've

my. humor is really important. I say such a kind of what though? Cause that's so dead.

It's cringe. I mean, have my kids voices in my head. But, you know, humor is a very important

way of communicating. You know, humor is really, I often think, you know, in terms of how I

see life, that's why worrying, I sound a bit humorous, but anyway, how I see life is like,

humor is like the, the missing dimension in terms of, it's almost, it can't really be

expressed.

But my, uh, we, we shared a sense of humor as, as a family. And so we would make each

other laugh. And so teasing was important. Wouldn't, it'll, um, just not taking yourself

too seriously. My parents. Well, I would say, um, like I respected them, I would've, I see

how my kids behave towards me and I'm that classic thing of like, God, if I did that

to my parents, that would not have gone well.

It's not that I think of them being especially strict. I didn't feel they were at the time,

but I wouldn't have dared to. Um, I, I don't know, like there there was a sense of of of

them having boundaries that I would respect and observe mean. They, they slight also,

they slightly cheated because we went to boarding school, me and my brother, age 13.

So those difficult teenage years of sort of 13 to 18 or 13 to 17, they were part timing

it. And if mom and dad, if you're listening, I'm sorry about, that's what it is, right?

They, I mean it was weekly boarding and they got me in the holidays, but other than that,

they were getting me half of Saturday and Sunday.

So I've got kids who are teenagers and. You know that that's where like the, the, a lot

of the conflict kicks in. So, uh, when I look back at how I related to my parents, there

were, there were times when, um, it felt like they didn't get me or they were being too

hard on me, or the mixed messages because they were sort of on one hand being free spirited

and saying like, if you wanna smoke some split Louis, like, that's fine, just be careful

you don't get caught, like, kind of thing.

Or other times you'd be like, how dare you, you're going out there, you know, what, what

are you doing? Like, it was like, well, which part of the, are we being, are you being counter-cultural

kind of dudes or are you gonna be like Victorian parents? Like, which is it? But in general,

um, I, I kind of, I kind of got it.

I kind of got, I got, I kind of got the, um, you know, that it was about, there was a foundation

of love and approval that was, you know, it was unconditional. And, and, and I think if

I had anything, to sort of, and to sort of reflect, reflect on approach them for, not

reproach, but sort of reflect on things that in hindsight could have been different.

It's the feeling that because they were work focused and also because their relationship

was complicated, sometimes it felt like, um, that me and my brother and I were slightly

a si a side effect. Like we weren't, and again, I could spin that as a positive actually.

Like there was a sort of a level of us being autonomous.

You know, we had whatever the opposite helicopter parents is. They, we, we slightly had that.

Like, they were like, okay, cool. You know, you do, you, and, and, and, um, and I think

again, that can be, I, I kind of quite grateful in some ways for that, but. You know, they

had their own thing going on. It reminds me of something Tim Grover said, which I've repeated

a few times.

He says he used to train Michael Jordan and uh, Kobe Bryant. And he, I spoke to him on

this podcast when we did the LA Run and he said that sometimes an event that happens

in our life or something that happens can create our brilliance. Mm-hmm. , it can be

responsible. In the case of that kind of void of independence your parents create, creates

someone that works and that goes and gets stuff and that's able to travel and be an

island.

Um, but it also can create our dark side. Mm-hmm. like the same event creates our brilliance,

but also our dark side. So my question to you is from that particular experience of

having that independence and feeling a bit like you were a side thing in their lives,

what was then the, the dark side? I can see the upside.

I can, what's the upside? For me it felt like the upside you were saying is the independence

you had. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That being the space to grow and

become your own person and not feel that you're especially kicking against. Anything but licensed

to follow your own interest.

I think that's all positive. I think, um, uh, what is the look? I think in general,

what, you know, I've said this and probably someone else said it as well, like that, you

know, what you think maybe your disability is also your superpower. Exactly. And I think,

um, uh, I think that I, in, I think I've struggled with intimacy sometimes.

My, you know, and, and I think I, you know, in terms of relationship building in, in my

private life, like it's a running joke between me and my wife, like that she's extremely

sort of emotionally acute and that I'm slightly the opposite, which is kinda weird when you

think about my job, which hinges on. Uh, supposedly being sort of maybe emotionally or psychologically

perceptive, but it is almost as though, but I see in my mum as well, like my mom having

worked at the bbc, went into, um, therapy and became a relationship counselor.

And it's funny because, um, my mum also finds it difficult sometimes to, to fully inhabit

her, her emotions if it doesn't sound an odd thing to say. And, and I, I'm gonna probably

regret saying that, but let's make it about me. And I think with me, I think, um, yeah,

I don't always find intimacy easy. Like it's, it, it, it's so, so, so I sort of, I, I experience

like a lot of the times my work.

Is a license to be intimate without consequences. Like to get to, to a bit like what you are

doing now. Like you talk to people, someone in a prison, you know, who's been sentenced

to 10 life sentences, he's like, okay, how does that feel? So what is, what's life like?

And, and then kind of get getting or whatever happens to be.

All the work I've done in some sense is about attempting to peel layers back and, and, and

see inside someone's psyche and then get on a plane and fly off and go home and live my

normal life almost at a, a less intimate plane of existence. And, um, so clearly, you know,

and the other joke I've made over the years is like, oh, what makes me good at my job

is also what makes me bad at life.

So, so for me it's, I think, and I think if you ask my friends, they might say, you know,

be like, oh yeah. You know, Louis's a good guy. I hope they would say that, but, but

they'd also might say like, he's a little bit absent. Like he's a little bit, um, I,

I don't feel I'm an especially attentive or present friend and, and, and you know, I'm

not, you know, some people are really gifted at friendship.

Oh God. They like really get, they're there and they think about and they make arrangements.

And I don't make really, I'm, I'm not very good at social arrangements. All these sort

of boring things that are the qualities that are really the stuff of life. Like, um, just

getting together, reaching out. Are you okay?

How's, it's been a while since I saw you. I wanted to, let's meet up, let's, which in

general, this is a crush generalization, but I think women are slightly better at than

men. And I think that's been one of the many gifts my wife has given me is actually involving

me in life. Like in a, just a normal. So neurotypical way, whereas I, my tendency would be to sort

of disappear into my slightly in cell-like shell, you know, of, of kind of in a metaphorical

shed of kind of counting.

I, the joke in making my book is like, you know, separating my collection of screws and

nails into their different jars. You know what I mean? Like that for me is like that,

you know, a lot of guys would be like, yeah, that sounds like heaven to have two hours

to organize my shed, you know, and not, and not realize that you're missing out on the

tapestry of life.

So I plead guilty to whatever that is. Maybe that's just being a man I can, I can relate

to. It's funny, I was having this conversation yesterday with my friends where they were

all saying, yeah, Steve doesn't like to socialize. You know, I, I would rather sit upstairs for

seven days on my own working than, like, someone said to me, this, you meet all these wonderful

people in this podcast, and you, and it's such a wasted opportunity that you don't text

me, Hey, let's go for a coffee.

Yeah. And it's just outside of my nature. My nature is to sit alone on my laptop and

work. Yeah. And so again, my girlfriend, my partner is the opposite. Yeah. So she's dragging

me. And so I really, I think it's quite a common dynamic, you know, not bragging. Two

nights ago I was a GQ man of the year. I see.

Thank you. Applause. Thank you. Um, uh, I was one of the honorees and, um, so there

was a, like, there was a, a banquet, like a, a posh dinner catered by Heston Blumenthal.

And, you know, stormy was gonna be there. Mo Sal, Leah Williamson, the footballer. I

didn't get an invite. I must have. So it's not just men now, it turns out, uh, extraordinary

list of like Andrew Garfield, an extraordinary list of incredible people.

And it wasn't even an awards bank. It wasn't even like the bs, like where you sit and sit

through the speeches and then at half past 10, when you're starving, hungry and quite

tired, you sit down, eat your food. This was like a banquet. Banquet where you just sit

around and have a delicious meal and then a few people pop up and say a few words between

starter and the main course.

So it was like, and it wasn't even that, it was like maybe a couple hundred people, like

quite small as these things go. But the point is, is before on the evening of, I was like,

I don't wanna go. And I said to, I knew I had to go, but I said to Nancy, my wife, I

was like, I am not feeling this. She's like, what is it?

I said, I just, I can't. You know, I dunno, I just feel really anxious. And she's like,

but you're not even giving a speech, are you? You know, cuz sometimes it's that like, what

if we win and I have to give a speech? Or, or you're worrying about whether you're gonna

win. It's like, I knew I was an honoree and I knew I wasn't gonna say any, I wasn't gonna

have to give a speech.

And it was just the idea of, of having to talk to people, like in a relatively high

wa high wattage setting. So you think like, I don't wanna be wandering around like a blithering

idiot. So there's a sort of little stress that sits alongside that. But there was no

real reason on paper why I shouldn't have been thinking, well this is gonna be amazing.

This is gonna be a night. I remember my whole life, you know, and I attempted to adjust

my mindset, you know, using kind of Paul McKenna like, or Uri like, you know, just visual.

Like, think about what this is. This is gonna be, no one's expecting anything of you. This

is a chance to sit down with some amazing people and have fun.

But nevertheless, for the first kind of hour I was there, just thinking. I kept just saying,

oh, and Nancy were like, what's the matter? So I think that's just for what I think that's

in me. It's probably in a lot, a lot of people. And, um, you just deal with it. But, you know,

why, why should that be the case? I, I don't really know why.

Is it something that comes with a cost and is it something you want to change? Uh, if

you're being really honest, if I could dial down, I think sometimes I think I have changed.

It actually is the first thing to say, because there were times in my life where I said no

to things just because I thought that's gonna be a bit like, you know, I did the maple dancing

in the end and it went fine.

I did learn, this will surprise you. But I did learn how to read and, you know, despite

all the anxiety I had about doing that. And so, and then as life went on, I think there

were times when I said no to things, opportunities, which probably just because the idea I, I

was asked to go on David Letterman's.

Chat show. Um, when it was on cbs, this would've been in around 2001. And I said, no, cuz I

thought that's just gonna make me anxious. And looking back on it, I probably wish I'd

done that. Why would that, why would that make you anxious? I find the chat show experience,

or, or not, especially, I mean, I've done it a few times and as life goes on, it seems,

you know, the idea of public speaking or, you know, when I first got into tv, it, it

was like, why am I doing this?

This is not me. Like, this is not what I was cut out for. This is not something that I

aspired to do. And it sounds really, you know, the whole notion of it feels, um, intimidating

and, and, and just a bad fit. And, and nevertheless, I knew that, you know, just briefly, like

I was working magazines as a, um, as a journalist in New York and, um, That's, I, I, I aspired

to be a, a TV writer, partly as a way of sort of avoiding comparison with my dad.

Not directly, but I suppose that was in my mind was like, I wanna write and be creative,

but I know I'll never write books. You know, I didn't feel like I wrote, when I wrote it

didn't feel, especially as though it came as easily as I, as it should, you know, it's

hard when your dad, like, I relate to people with famous parents, like, you know, people

like, you know Jacob Dylan?

Yeah. Who's Bob Dylan's son. I dunno why I reached for that comparison, but Jacob Dylan,

that track one headlight. Do you remember that one? No. Okay. For people who know, they

know , you know, it's a great track. It was a huge international hit, but his dad's Bob

Dylan. That's a painful, maybe not painful, but that's an extraordinary.

Legacy to be born into and in a, in a related way, like I was conscious of my dad, his name

as a writer really meant something. And that it was, um, that if I was to attempt to write

something, it was gonna be a case of very likely kind of falling short, at least in

my own mind. But the idea of writing in television was, was less, I felt would set, would, wouldn't

invite the same comparisons.

Plus, I used to watch TV and I like tv and there was something about the democratic kind

of nature of television, in fact, that everyone watches tv. I thought, well, that's a way

of working in a medium that will connect with people. And so it was in the mid nineties.

TV was, uh, in a kind of a mini golden age.

The Simpsons was on, Seinfeld was on, friends, was just about to come on the, there were

all these amazing. TV shows. Larry Sanders was another one. Did you want to connect with

people you studied history at Oxford? Yeah. And as someone that is, appears to be a bit

of an introvert by nature from what you said about your experiences.

I've got double. I have a duality where I'm partly shy, introverted, and then partly outgoing

and extrovert. So with your writing and with the TV writing was your, and with the magazine

writing, I know you did some stent at, um, spy and was it Metro in Boston? Metro In San

Jose. In San Jose. San Jose, California.

Was your, was your objective and the, the thing that you found fulfillment in your work

from, was that connecting with people? Um, or was it just, I don't, I think I connected

with people not to sound, um, you know, oxymoronic or whatever it is. No Tologist by connecting

with people, like, in other words, like I always find.

I do my best. Connecting sounds a bit weird. Yeah. Face to face. I mean, maybe at one level,

but in the end I think I was just trying to do good work and get approval. Like maybe

more than connection, like just trying to sort of get an A at work. Do you know what

I mean? Like, so I would feel good and think like, oh, I got 10 outta 10 on my article

or on my piece of writing my, my film review.

And then if people said to me that was really good, that was like getting a, you know, like

you got a good review or whatever. You know, people, people say like, you, you did a good

job. Then it, it was maybe a way of, um, it just a little, it's just a little, uh, spurt

of whatever that is. Like, just kind of pleasure, you know, you just worthiness a worth, feeling

worth, you know?

I don't want, I, I think I've got a healthy, relatively healthy sense of self-esteem, but

nevertheless, I, I think I, I, I, I, whether I require it, I enjoy. , you know, getting,

I got a, I got a series out at the moment. This isn't my attempt to segue into the promotional

portion of this interview, but nevertheless, here we are.

I got a, um, I've got a series out at the moment on iPlayer called Louis through interviews

and we had one that went out a few days ago where I interviewed Bear Grills an alumness

of this very podcast. I listened to your interview with him, by the way. Thank you. In preparation

and, um, and when it went out, for whatever reason, I think, cuz I thought it was a good

show and I hoped it would, I hoped it would get a good reception.

I was on. Um, I thought I'm gonna go on Twitter and see what people were saying and it was

surprisingly quiet and then I felt a bit like, um, okay, now I'm going to, I'll try at Louis

through, I'll try hashtag Bear Grill. I tried a few different search terms and then I suddenly

I had a vision of my, you know, you get a vision of yourself like, Oh, while I've become

that grubby guy, kind of like, it's so of sad.

It's like trying to fish for fish for approval in the vast swamp of the Twitter verse, right.

Casting my line and nothing much is coming back. And I thought, well, and then one that

came back, I looked at it and said, just watched Louis through's interview with beg rules.

Wow. It was hella boring, . And I was like, I just caught a boot

And then I was like, well, that's what you get. And by the way, it isn't boring. No,

it's not boring. The point I was trying to get to was, um, then couple days later I got

a review, great review in the Times, just sort of pointing all the things about it that

I knew to be really, really good. It was sort of the perfect review, you know, rave saying

like, this is fresh, it's new, it's different, it's fun, it's entertaining, it's revealing.

And I felt really good. And on one level I was like, Because before that, the first three

episodes, I hadn't really checked Twitter. I thought, I don't, I'm not that guy anymore.

I don't really care. Like I make the shows and I know they're good. And the ones that

aren't good, I know none of these is, is a clunker.

They're all solid. And, and then here, and then I suddenly thought, oh, I went back to,

I regressed into being the needy sort of, um, the needy, insecure person, which is,

you know, and, and that guy is always there, by the way. I think a lot of people could

probably relate to that, which doesn't, it doesn't mean, you know, which, which is, um,

which is fine by the way.

But I suppose to, to your point, um, or, you know, in all the kind of work in the work

I do is not like, is it an urge to connect? Like it's an urge to do good work, and then

it's nice for that to be recognized. And as much as I, I could, I'd like to pretend. I

don't really care whether people like it or not. I do care.

Actually, do you know what's funny is my team are very honest with me and we're in the car

the other day and I believe it was Holly. Holly and my team who might be upstairs now,

and I said, um, we were talking about your Louis's coming on the podcast. I said, oh,

he's got the new series out where he interviews people.

And I turned to, I think it was Holly, it might be someone else. So sorry if it's someone

else. Um, I turned to them and said, how is it? Because they'd seen it before me and they

went, it's actually really good. Oh, nice. That's what they said to me. And they would

be, and they would be so honest with me. They went, it's actually really good.

And then they explained why it good cause me, here's my thing like that actually, like,

isn't it, it's actually like, it's actually really good. But see when I, because I've,

I'm a very glass half empty kind of guy with respect to praise. Yeah. So what I'm hearing

there is it's action surprising. Yeah. I'm hearing like, cuz I'm hearing is that a surprisingly,

in which case, why would that be surprising?

I can, I think I can assert white would be surprising. Um, I think that, The generation

Holly's in. Mm-hmm. , they don't watch, um, shows like that on BBC one, typically. Mm-hmm.

. And so BBC two, but BBC two, sorry, on the bbc should I say. Yeah. Um, but that's what

I got from it is her generation who are like 22, 23, who spend a lot of time on like TikTok

and Instagram and these other platforms.

I think, um, it was, I was actually quite surprised. That's fine. And I think that's

probably true. And also I think in my world, if I'm gonna talk about stuff, you know, we,

there's a troll in all of us, right. And, and, and in general it's more enjoyable to

talk about stuff and dunk on stuff because it's shit.

Right. Like, and that sounds horrible. I'm slightly oversimplifying. I think you're right.

There's a lot, especially in the, in the journalistic or in, in, so the media village, it's like,

did you see it? Nah. Yeah. That was rubbish, wasn't it? And there's a sort of reassuring

feeling of like, yeah, yeah. Let's all, let's all give it a kicking.

Yeah. So, so when you acknowledge that something's good, you're almost saying like, I'm going

grudgingly acknowledge that. That was good. Yeah, I think you're correct. You know, that's

a bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think pretty much everything, especially when, cuz we probably

consider ourselves working in the media industry.

Sure. So for the team to go, it's actually really good. Yeah. Um, and then she went on

to explain to most things aren't that good? They're not, I mean, most things are fine.

Yeah. But most things are like only about as good as they need to be. Do you know what

I mean? Especially in the interview format. Like how many other ways can you create an

interview format that is original and inspiring.

And that's also what I got from her was like, she was talking to me about the way the format

was constructed. Yeah. I think we pushed things forward a little bit. Like it's not a paradigm

shift. Like we haven't completely flipped the script as they used to say in hip hop

circles. But it is, you know, we, we worked on the grammar.

We tried to do things a little differently. So we created a, for one of a better term

format, you know, that allowed for. Elements of, um, actuality just being silly, having

fun or being in live settings where the unexpected could happen, but also bits of, um, uh, conversation

that would be going to places that were quite deep.

So, yeah, thank you for that. And that, that that's, that's, thank you for paring that

one TV I, I read when you were 18, I think maybe 16, um, if someone had said to you that

you would end up in tv, you would've, you would've been sort of perplexed at how that

would've, the steps that it would've taken to get you down.

Yeah, that's definitely true. You, you are in San Jose, I believe at the time. Um, is

that where SPY was? The magazine? No, I was that Boston Rewind. Just to rewind, and I

also wanna mention one other thing, which is, cuz we talked a little bit about studying

and, and I feel as though whatever that is, that work ethic has stood me in good stead,

but I don't feel that that's, I often think there's.

A very understandable, sort misconception about the level of importance of, of academic

work. You know, that whole staying school kids and, you know, we were talking, I think,

off, off mic about Mr. Beast, the YouTuber and, you know, the media landscape we're in

now. It, it would just, it's just simply not correct to say that, oh, the path lies through

academic work.

Right. And I was talking to my cousin, Justin Thru, oddly enough, he says, Thoreau, who's

an actor, he's a director, uh, a writer. He wrote Tropic Thunder, iron Man Two, he's been,

he's also like high profile Hollywood actor. I interviewed him for my podcast. I'm not

trying to plug, that'll be weird to plug one podcast on another podcast.

But he, and he, he was like someone who struggled in the academic setting. Like he, he had adhd.

He. Flunked out of a school. He went to another school where they recognized his special needs.

But the point is that I sort of think so many as I think we undervalue, there's a tendency

to undervalue those parts of, of, um, of life that that lead to success, that that exists.

I mean maybe you, maybe I'm sort of out of line here cause it sounds like you are all

over this, but those parts of like, the parts of life that helped me become whoever I am

part of its academic part of its, was almost inimical to academic success. It was the part

that was free spirited and naughty, and that was bunking off school and seeing movies and,

and, um, or, or getting me in trouble and, and, and, Whatever that is, and it's hard

to really bottle it and know quite what it is.

You know, there, there is something that I struggle sometimes with over discipline, right?

And, and or a sense of like doing well in controlled settings. But actually it's that

you need the yin and the yang of both. And, and when I went out and did stuff that was

successful on tv, like working, doing my first segments at a show called TV Nation, having

been hired by Michael Moore when I was 23, partly like a work ethic, you know, doing

preparation and being, you know, turning up on time, as they say is like 90%.

Of the battle, but actually then being just sort of allowing those creative juices sort

of to, to, you know, whatever that mysterious quality of, um, humor and connectivity, just

being silly and disruptive, like those are really valuable. They say don't, they, they

say conformity is great to succeed in school, but it's not great to succeed in life.

There's, maybe that's what it is. You kind of need to be to conform once you get out,

you sort of do. And I think, and, and I wanna come back to your question, but, but I do

think that that's also, you know, three, four years ago I started a company and there's

a part of me that's overly. So overly conventional, you know, and, and as a result seeks out unconvention

in my work.

And that's positive, you know, it means like, I love spending time with people who feel

like they give free reign to the darkest, weirdest impulses that I think to an extent

we all share, but keep repressed, you know, whatever those happen to be. People involved

in sex work or, or, or people involved in religious cults or, or hate groups.

And, and that, that's sort my stock in trade is talking to those people. Cuz I feel as

though I kind of get it. Like, I, I understand that those, that, that's part of the full

compliment, as horrible as it might sound to say, like, we all have like unacknowledged

and secret, um, impulses that, you know, we, we have sort of civilized, uh, uh, in, you

know, and, and, And repressed into, into, you know, we've inhibited them into our souls

so that we can function and, and not go to be sent to prison or whatever, be canceled.

But, um, for me, like I, I, I sort of, I, I do it to a fault, to the point where I worked

at the BBC in-house, in BBC Studios, just cuz I sort of liked the idea of the structure.

Like, I'm a company man going to the factory and, you know, building my tv. programs but

not owning them. And cuz I just thought, you know, and I like going to the can, I used

to love working at TV Center cuz it felt like going to the factory and then eating at the

TV center canteen.

You know, it just felt, felt like comfortable. You know, my, my granddad worked at the London

Water Board his whole life. He had one job that he started when he was 18 and, and finished

when he was, whenever 65. You know, to some extent those were the times. But that temperament

is slightly in me the whole time.

When, when, when he left, they gave him, um, some, a box of cutlery, you know, that was

the, you know, you worked here for 47 years here. Here's your silver, your silverware

in a walnut case. And it was on a, it was in private place, like not pride of play,

it wasn't on the mantle piece. But you, you used, we used to look at it.

That's what grandpa got when he'd worked at the Metropolitan Water Board for 47 years.

You know, you sort of reverence it. Like, and it was only used for special occasions.

And, and there's a little bit of that in me. And so when I finally. Went outside the BBC

and set up a company three or four years ago.

I'm sure most of your listeners probably have their own, although many of them, not most,

but many of them will have their own companies or will be fully cognizant of what it takes

to make it in the sort of the world of, of, of free market and entrepreneurship. But for

me, that was just absolutely not my lane and it was my wife who pushed me to do it.

And so that was a case of me needing to break out of whatever I was doing and say, do you

know what? Whatever you think that is risky or mysterious, or, um, you know, a bit a spy,

you know, like just a little bit of judgment. Like, oh, I don't wanna be one of the YPI

guys. Like we just had an ipo. I've just got my first Maserati like that cuz I, I'm Antagon,

you know, I've complete that, that whole mindset.

I feel like I'm alienating maybe some of your listeners. Like, it's not my mindset, like

I'm just like, I, I almost valorize the opposite of that. You know, to an probably, um, an

extent that's sort faintly unhealthy. Like, like I don't want be the guy, I don't want

a flash car. I don't want flash clothes, I don't want anything.

I wanna be anti flash. Right? Like my watch, you can see this. My wife was saying to me

last night, um, you know, maybe time for a new watch. This is a Casio, whatever that

one is. It's a F nine one W. These costs like 10 pounds, 15 pounds you can get them at,

at Argos. Do you, have you ever seen that watch before?

I have. That's, I was listening to a, about Andrew Tate on the way here, a podcast. You

know who Andrew T is? Yeah. What's your, anyway, so Andrew Tate feels like he's, that guy reduced

to its quintessence where he is, like, one of his catchphrases was, um, people say, why

have you got a, you know, green Bugatti? Do you know this meme?

And what does he say to them? He says, um, well, he says, he says, what colors? I say

to them, what colors your Bugatti? , right? That's him in a nutshells, like unapologetically

troll, like ostentatious displays of wealth and arrogance, right? So I'm the anate. You

can put that on my, you put that on my gravestone?

The anate. So I'm like, I don't give a fuck about your Bugatti. I think it's embarrassing

that you have one. No offense if you, no, I don't. I don't have a car, but, you know,

fine. You know, and that's kind of a joke. Like that's, I, I, my point really is that

that's something I need to keep an eye on, you know, cuz actually ostentatious, uh, Almost

like ostentatious humility is its own poison.

Like, like why are you so wedded to the idea of having a shit watch? By the way, it's not

a shit watch. It's completely reliable and it's, I've never had it. The only thing that

goes on it is the strap. So, so I've got one that's got a, a, you can replace the strap

after about five years. The strap goes. I've got two of these.

I'm not bragging . I've got one, I've got my, I've got my spare one in case I can't

find this one. Anyway, last time my wife said it might be time for a new watch. I've gotta

embrace, I'm trying to lean into being the guy that isn't showing off about what a lack,

what a not show off he is. You think I've lost the thread?

I haven't. The point I'm getting to is that, um, so I needed to start a company and not,

because it's, it's oddly ing after a while. Like there's nothing, there's nothing cool

about making. Hundreds of hours of TV and not owning any of it. Right. That's just me

being a little bit of a chump. And partly that's, you know, there's a quid pro quo I

suppose.

Like, well you don't get stressed, you turn up, you're making things for a public broadcaster,

you're getting a decent salary for sure. But people would say like, why? You know everyone

else, so who do you work for? It's like, well, I'm bbc, I'm on contract. I work from contract

to contract three years at a time.

Like really? You don't have your own company? Like, no, why not? Like, you know, cuz everyone

else does, like Jamie Oliver or Hug Furley Witting Stall or, or you know, whoever you

care to mention. Any presenter, bear Grills, bear Grill of any longevity, um, would, would

be making their own shows. You know, it's, it is a, it is a no-brainer.

And I was like, oh, I guess I just, I'm fine doing my, I'm a creature of habit, you know,

that was sort of what, I'm just sort fine. I don't wanna mess around with it. And then

having done it three or four years ago, like, yeah, I probably should have, should have

done it a bit earlier. But it, it's, so, so it's that thing of, um, the point which now

landing on the point sounds a bit vanilla, was that you can sort of get in being a creature

of habit, being sort of embrace into whatever that, you know, your own sense of self as,

um, risk averse and, um, conventional.

Sometimes, you know, I needed to challenge myself in order to discover that there was

a, you know, a world out there that was sort of more creative, more lucrative, more fun,

more adventurous. That's happened a few times in your life where you've kind of taken a

leap into the unknown, which is actually quite surprising.

Having, you know, described yourself as a creature of comfort. Even habit Have habit,

sorry. Yeah. Um, what, no, I don't mean to habit, like I'm trying to, like tell you off.

I can say habit, maybe of comfort as well, although, you know, but habit is really what

I meant. Yeah. Creature of habit. Cause I, cause I was reading about when you made that

transition from being a writer to a TV presenter.

Yeah. And. I, I, I remember writing some quotes about how, um, how like there was one about

feeling like an imposter a little bit to some degree and getting on that plane to go and

interview these Christians. Once Michael Moore had sort of, um, put you at front and central

country, that's, and thinking, what the fuck am I doing here?

Yeah, that was, I remember it vividly. It's extraordinary as you go through life, so much

disappears, but there are times when you realize you're at this mo sort of momentous moment.

I suppose often it's high stress moments. Which, which is really revealing, isn't it?

Because actually risk avoidance, you know, that, that almost like, God, my mind's whizzing

now, but that bent of my idea, like the greatest happiness, you know, in philosophy, there's

a utilitarian ideal that's supposed to be the, the metric for how you judge whether

an action is good or not.

And it's like the greatest, will it cause the greatest happiness of the greatest number

of people? But then if you unpack that, like, well, what is happiness like? Well actually

how do you measure it? And how do you measure? Is it happiness in the moment? Is it happiness

as it's recollected over time? Is it, um, a happiness that, you know, um, you can, uh,

that will spread to other people or, you know, it will exist for a hundred years.

Uh, and, and so actually there's a, there's a sense of fear and discomfort that will subsequently

lead to sense of, of, of, of triumph or self-satisfaction. I, you know, is it happiness? Is it, I don't

know, like that fear is such a, such a blunt instrument for attempting to me measure reality.

And, um, and in general, fear, which you would equate with unhappiness can very often be

what ends up creating the conditions for real achievement.

And I, I, I, I, I remember sitting on this plane having been given a job by Michael Moore

as a presenter on, you know, TV Nation. It was a network TV show on nbc. One of the,

there were then three networks in America. I was 23. I, I was, as I say, awkward in every

apparent way, disqualified for being a, a, a correspondent on a network TV show I was

in, I was having, I was in the union like, you know, as probably still the case, but

definitely then, TV shows were unionized to an extent in America further than they would

be in the uk.

So I would be, I was in the Writer's Guild of America, uh, as a result of being hired.

And so they were required to fly me business class. Like I don't think I'd ever been in

business class. And somehow that contributed to my imposter syndrome. My sense like, I

shouldn't really be here. I remember sitting there thinking like, this is all kinds of

wrong.

Like, I dunno what I'm doing here. I dunno why they think I'm qualified to do this. And

nevertheless, this is what's happening. And, and I was that it was a segment that, uh,

was about, you know, TV Nation was a kind of satirical, fact-based comedy show where

you went out and slightly made fun of people with to prove a political point or to sort

of make some sort of social point.

So I was interviewing religious cults about when the end of the world was going to happen.

So it was sort of like slightly cheeky, um, , irreverent take on religious fanaticism

or religious weirdness. So the eyes, like, I wanted to know, so when will the world end?

Is it on a Tuesday? How can I get prepared?

And I was sort of in a wide-eyed way. Oh no. Like, will there be, you know, and are the

spaceships going to land? And what will the aliens look like? But I was just incredibly

conscious of, of thinking like, why have I been given this huge, um, it felt like a big

slab of pressure and, and sort of licensed to fail very publicly and very embarrassingly.

And, and I also knew I wasn't, you know, but I'm also wasn't so disconnected, connected

from reality that I didn't think like, well, it's a huge opportunity. Like my, and my,

my girlfriend at the time was very supportive and was like, you know, you, you should, you,

you can do this Louis. Like, you're, you're really good with people.

And, and, um, and, and you know, don't, don't, don't worry. Like you, you can, you've, you've

got this, you can handle it. When you try to talk yourself out of it. I was, um, it

wasn't like I ever thought I, um, I, I won't do it. Like I, it, it was no question for

like, I'm gonna do it. Like, I have to do it, but I, I, I sort of didn't want to do

it.

Does that make sense? Has that been typical of your life where, you know, you've gotta

do it, but it feels kind of painful and anxious as you approach the challenge, even like with

starting your own company? Yeah, I think so. Like, there's times when I, you know, I suppose

that's where the work ethic part fits in or whatever, like that part of, if, if you commit

to doing something, like I'm very, I, I hate to let people down.

Like if I commit to doing something, um, or turning up on time or I still struggle with

that part. Like, especially as you're in the, when you're in the public eye or you're in

demand and people write and ask for things, I still, you know, will you come to our school

and give a talk or I do. I. I, I'm, I'm a, I'm very agreeable in that sort of technical

sense.

I'm, I'm very inclined to agree to do things and that can get you in trouble because you

find you're over, I, I find I over agree and make unrealistic commitments, like, oh, that'll

be fine, and then I'll do that, and then I'll do that. And then you look at it and you're

like, there's just no way on earth I can do all of these things.

So I try and ring fence my commitment levels, but that's not easy. So, but in a, in a positive

way, um, that sense of like feeling like I need to show up, having agreed to do it, having

been offered a, um, an opportunity, even though it might sound enormously stressful, like

I would never, I think this may be a world in which I never got into tv.

I dunno quite what I did end up doing. The thing that it makes me reflect on. The extent

to which we are conditioned and groomed into behaviors that can be healthy or unhealthy

or positive or not positive. And I think that's the part of the libertarian ethos that I have

a huge, well, among others I have a huge issue with is like, oh, just let people be themselves.

People need help to fulfill their potential, right? That idea that, oh, you know, you can

pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Like I, with all the advantages I had of like a first

rate private education, supportive parents, e even I like didn't see myself as someone

who would have various kinds of success. I didn't feel that that was in me for whatever

reason.

But other along the way, people among Michael Moore, um, people at the BBC who then commissioned

me to do my own series off the back of TV Nation, when I got commissioned to do weird

weekends, my wife Nancy, other people along the way have sort of, um, seen things in me

that. I didn't see in myself even this interview series going out at the moment.

I, I never, it sounds awful. I never aspired to have like a TV interview series. Like it

was something that would be mentioned from time to time. And I would say like, that's

not really me. You know? I like going out, like my, my comfort, like my happy place really

is in terms of tv. Like, oh, go and be in a prison for two weeks and film the inmates,

or go to a mental hospital or go to a, um, a brothel, like I made a film about a brothel

and just hang out there for two or three weeks and just be afl.

That, that to me is, it sounds awful, but that's, that's like pure bliss, like work-wise.

But the idea of, oh, we'll have a formal sit down interview and you'll talk to someone

famous who probably only has a couple of hours for you, and then we'll piece it all together

and do shoot. I, I never thought like that's really something I want to do, but.

Patrick Holland, who was then in charge of BBC two, had listened to my podcast and said

like, I really think this would work. Some, not this exactly, but there's a, there's,

there's a TV show that takes aspects of this that could exist, that would, you know, involve

you talking to people. And I, and I remember you would think like, oh, that would, that

must have been exciting.

Like someone saying like, I wanted to do it. This TV format involves partly chat show,

partly documentary. I just thought, I didn't think like that's something I'll never do.

I did think, like, I just felt very blank about it. I know that's horrible, like people

are going to listen to this and throw up in their cards, but I just thought that sounds

sort of stressful.

I'm not sure if I really wanna do that. What, but I made myself, the point is I made myself

do it because I had a team around me who I knew expected me to do it and at some level

I had enough sense to recognize that it was an opportunity. These people that have seen

things in you that you maybe couldn't at the time, have seen in yourself or seen roles

for you that you maybe at the time couldn't have seen for yourself?

Michael Moore, Nancy, and then people at the BBC that you mentioned. Are you aware of what

they're seeing in you now in hindsight, what they see? Uh, yeah, I think so. And I think

in with, with a bit of time, I've been able to appreciate, um, that, I know it sounds

sort of glib and maybe even false, modest, but to, to appreciate that I have something

to offer.

Um, what is that? Well, um, it makes people feel uncomfortable when you're asking these

questions. No, no. I'm fine with it. Okay. Like, cuz I feel as though I can analyze it.

Um, With the benefit of 25 years of doing it. I think it's something to do with like

a little bit of intelligence, a little bit of humor, a little bit of un sort of unor

awkwardness.

Like I think that's part of it, like just being a little bit awkward, a little bit of,

um, sorts of authenticity or, or whatever that is. Like, just sort of feeling like,

I think maybe that that same thing of not really fully chasing it or fully sort of needing

it, oddly enough is almost the, you know, it's like to go through the door, you have

to not want to go through the door too much.

I dunno if that's even, that's definitely not a saying and it doesn't actually make

any sense, but whatever sense you can make of that contradictory statement, if you want

it too much, I think. There's, there's, then you need to step back and think about quite,

it's almost like then you're not ready. Um, grasshopper, is that the right, is Grasshopper,

is that what these are saying?

Karate kid? Yeah. I think if I can talk, if I can call you a grasshopper, Steve. No. Um,

you know, it's like, it's that feeling of, uh, you know, at the end of the day, , um,

there's more important things in life and, um, I don't wanna overdo, I actually got lost

in my metaphor a bit, but I think in the end it's like those different qualities of, of,

of, of it's, it's that compliment of qualities and then just luck.

But I don't think luck really is a quality, but alongside, I'm now at the position we're

having done my job for long enough. It's put me in a slight, I think there's loads of people

who could be, uh, whoever I am, like occupy that cultural place that I'm in. But, you

know, and partly I've earned my place here, and partly I've been really lucky.

But I think, you know, when you said something earlier, it also made me think of another

quality, which is to do with, which isn't a negative thing, which is that, you know,

that idea like you, when you were told, you know, when I was told that, oh, you know,

Patrick, you know, is quite keen to do some sort of talk format or some interview thing

where you're on tv and I, and I just think like, well, I'm not really sure.

I, I, I think one of my, cuz it goes back to what you were asking earlier about what

is the downside of these various qualities. Like, I do think there's a term Anne Hedonic.

Have you ever heard that term? No. It just means, I think it's a clinical term, but it

sort of, it sort of means averse to pleasure or lacking in pleasure.

Like, there's a part of me again that, um, I think my wife has helped me with is that

I, I kind of sense that I'm not always connected to pleasure. Does that sound weird? Like I,

I, you know, sometimes I, I sort of drift through life and, and I have to sort of stop

and remind myself I think because I, I sort of.

I, I tend to see downsides and, and I, I'm working on that and, and I, I really do. Like,

I, I sort of need to, it's really odd, like I've won three Bs, not bragging. Uh, this

just came up and I, and I mention it's a fact. And, um, and when you win a, after you've

got a lot of awards up there. I'm not seeing a b

Maybe those are just I presented after to someone else. Some of them ones a camera.

I'm not sure that camera is an award or you can do a cutaway of that later. You know,

it's odd. Like I, my main thing on winning, each time I won a ba I first thought was being.

Oh shit. Now I have to give an acceptance speech.

Right. And I have to get up there and, um, you know, in high, like, the pleasure, you

know, you get a little pleasure over the subsequent years when you can bring it up again and again

as I like to do. But actually it's really hard. Like I, I, most of the time when I get

good news, sometimes I don't even, I can't notice the good news.

Does that sound really weird? No, that makes sense. I don't know if that make, thank you

for saying that. I think you're being polite. Yeah. I I'm not someone who, I'm not someone

who, um, is, who automatically feels connected to the good things that happen to them. How

does one remain happy if they have that sort kind of default to, oh my God, where am I

gonna put this third BA that I've won?

Or now I have to do a speech. Well, that's awful. But you just sort of follow your routine,

you know? And actually, I am a happy person and, um, I, um, I, you know, I, I I take pleasure

in the simple things in life. You know, I, I like, um, doing stuff with the, you know,

stuff with the family or, you know, really, I really am a terrible, I've made a simple

place.

Like I, I like watching Match of the Day at the weekend. Like you say, like, yeah, okay,

lots of people like doing that. What's like, but you know, like that, that for me is one

of the small things in the week where I'm like, I know I'm gonna be happy for the next

45 minutes or, or hour, you know what I mean? Or on, on a, on a Saturday night, I listen

to loose ends on Radio four, and often I'll be cooking and, and that's a small thing.

And I get a little, a little tiny little boost out of, um, now I'm gonna enjoy it. Usually

I enjoy listening to it. There's little thing, I, I mean, I, I'm not, if someone says like,

you're gonna go on holiday to The Bahamas, I'm trying to imagine what a really big, happy

thing would be. I, I would normally experience that as stress and anxiety.

I think that's quite normal though. Holidays are stressful, aren't they? Maybe you've got

your priorities in order, in fact, because you don't seem to be compelled or sat, um,

or derive your happiness from like, the big wonky stuff from like the Lamborghini, the

spaghetti, the bfda. Yeah. What color's your spaghetti?

The GQ man of the year stuff. You seem, seem to drive it from the, the simple, intrinsically

fulfilling things like, you know, cooking, listening to a thing that's intellectually

stimulating. So maybe we're all, maybe everyone else is a weirdo and you're actually incredibly

normal. Don't know. I, I think there's more of us out there than you might think, but

maybe not.

We're all trapped in our own brains. There's no way of measuring. I do think that, um,

you know, I mentioned that when I saw that I got a nice review in the. That gave me like

a, as I said, it gave me a buzz. You cared about your work though. Yeah. You really cared

about, well, that wasn't even about, I mean, I do care about the work.

I mean, work is a big source of pleasure. Like in the sense of either being on location

and, um, being aware of it going well and getting into an almost like a mindset in an

interview of feeling like, yeah, this is all good. Like I feel connected. I feel, uh, cuz

it's a high stress in a way. I'm sure you have a little bit, if you have an interview

with someone, you feel like you've been trying to book it for a while, uh, the moment comes,

you're like, the next two hours are really important.

You want it to go smoothly. You want it to feel like a revealing encounter. You, you

wanna be probing and insightful and intensive and immersed and not distracted, but also

thinking ahead and, and all of that's going on. And then it starts and then you feel like,

oh, it's going okay. And then after you're like, that was a good one.

And then in the edit you're putting it together and you're piecing things in like that. All

of those, the simple pleasures of. Of craft, you know, like it's really, and it is simple.

Like it's no great mystery, but that, that's, that's a big part of, um, of how I connect

with, uh, well my own happiness. How do you connect with people?

So actually I wanted to ask you this for my own sort of learning. You've done this for

multiple decades. You've sat with people from every corner of the world. You have all of

these different experiences, and some of them are a little bit, you know, in the nicest

sense, a little bit out there. Mm-hmm. , I'm glad I landed with a PC word.

Yeah. A little bit out there. Wonder what the non PC word . But you have, um, it was

funny when I asked you about the qualities you have, I think you absolutely nailed it.

And all of those make you incredibly disarming that almost like lack of intense seriousness

makes you really disarming individual. Um, how do you connect with people?

How intentional is your approach to connecting with them mm-hmm. in your new interview series,

but also just generally Some of it is stuff that. You know, I didn't, I just sort of came

by by accident, probably most of it, which is a thing, you know, natural curiosity, which

I think you have a feeling of, um, of just, just wanting to know why people do the things

that they do.

Right. And, and, and sort of getting out of your own way a bit, you know, in the sense,

cause the question I get asked most often is like, what, how do you not get angry with

some of these people? Especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate or coming out

with stuff That's really objection. I find it slightly confusing question because I think

that's so, is so far from what's in my head most of the time I'm genuinely think like,

why, if, if it is someone, like say a neo-Nazi or someone involved in religious intolerance,

I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place.

What, what, what's in their mind that to actually berate them. To give him a hard time or even

be particularly journalistically confrontational. That's not, that's not my default mode. That's

so interesting. Cause I just think in life generally, those who like seek to un, even

in our personal relationships and romantic relationships, those that seek to understand,

tend to build bridges.

But if you seek to like, as you say, berate. Yeah. I get told off on this podcast a lot

on like Twitter and in the press, like, because I don't berate people. Mm-hmm. , like when

I had Matt Hancock here, I asked him the questions I really wanted to know, but I didn't, I didn't

come to berate him. No. He would've gone this.

Yeah. The wall would've gone up had I done that. There's other ways of, and some people

use a confrontational approach and that's fine. And then I think in general, um, you

know, there's many ways of doing interviews and I think probably, you know, I haven't

interviewed many politicians, and it's probably related to that, the feeling that they, they,

they have their.

They tend to have their guard up, they tend to be, uh, followed a strategy of, of attempting

to be as, as risk averse headline averse as as possible. And it's like those aren't the

people I'm, I'm interested in people who are genuinely attempt, who feel like they've got

something figured out or, or, or are involved in a, in a world or a lifestyle or just some

situation that is, is either self-sabotaging or, or filled with angst.

So in the end, I see it as not, I'm not trying to get one over on people. I'm not trying

to, I honestly, most interviews I see it as a, as a potential win-win. You know what I

mean? Like, I, I should think like, well, there's no, there's no reason why you shouldn't

tell me the truth and you're involved in something that you're relatively open about.

And, and I'll, I'll just assume that that's probably the case. Now, obviously you are

briefed, you've done as much research. As you can. But um, I think if you feel as though

you're coming from a position of, um, sort of shared inquiry, then that's contagious.

Um, I think also I sort of tend to think, I think there's some part who thinks maybe

other person's got it figured out and I haven't.

Right. A level of humility so that when they say stuff, I'm genuinely thinking like, well,

I guess maybe or may. Or they say something bonkers. I'm like, well, that isn't right.

But I enjoy bumping up against that and I don't go in there thinking I'm gonna, I'm

gonna get this person. Like, I'm gonna get one over on them.

I sort of feel as though, you know, you come in and you just sort of try and just see what's

going on. You know, if, if people see like, You are attempting to wrestle intimacies from

them, that's never gonna go well. You just create the space and the sense of, of understanding

and allow them to sort of walk through that everything you've just described there, that

creating the space to like understand them, the humility, which is ultimately creates

that safety, which allows them to open up are the exact things that I know my partner

wants from me in all of our interactions.

Mm-hmm. . So because you've got that skill in your work, I'm here assuming that you also

have that at home mm-hmm. , is that correct? Um, I think I could work better on it. Like,

I'm very aware that the skill set, I often think about the skill that I have in my work

of being supposedly a good listener and an empathetic.

And present person. I, I slightly fail at, you know, kind of, I think a very, probably

normal way in, in my relationship. Like I, I have a very happy marriage and probably

you should check that with Nancy. Uh, cause, well, I'm slightly reviewing my own restaurant

if I can use that metaphor. Um, and um, but yeah, on good reads, I gave my book a five

out of five and, and you know, I'm giving my marriage five out of five.

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In your autobiography on page 150, Are you serious? Yes. Gotta get through this, my life

in strange times in television. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Get it on audiobook for

an extra chapter about Jimmy ssl. That's true. Speaking of page 157, and Jimmy, Jimmy SSL

on that page, your former wife, seeing as we're talking about relationships and reviewing

them, et cetera, she said, there's nothing real about you.

Yeah. And to the point of Jimmy ssl, he also said something which was to the same vein

about insincerity. Yeah. Being your specialty. Yeah. That's good. I'm glad you brought that

up,

It's quite a, uh, telling sort of ringing piece of, uh, self exposure where, where,

yeah, I, my wife and Jimmy several both make the same critique of my interpersonal qualities,

finding me lacking in. basically authenticity, lacking insincerity. There's nothing real

about, well, the first thing is when a relationship is ending, um, you seize whatever you can

to hurt the other person.

I think it's, I think when someone you really love and you think really loves you, I mean,

I, it was my girlfriend at the time, although we were married, and that's a whole other

complicated. But, but yeah, when that relationship was ending, I think there's a feeling of betrayal,

isn't there? It's like, I thought we were, we were together forever and I trusted that

that would be the case.

And, and here we are. Clearly you don't feel the same way. And, and so I'm in the position

of, in her eyes being a kind of trait and inauthentic someone who didn't deliver on,

um, on what was promised, although it wasn't promised. But what was, what seemed to be

implicit. Um, I think, uh, yeah, in, I mean, I remember where we were, like when the Jimmy

Sa, the first documentary I made about Jimmy Sa, when he was alive, when Louis met Jimmy,

not available on the iPlayer, um, but it's on the internet, you can find him.

And um, I remember when we promoted it, um, before, I think it was when we promoted it,

and he, he agreed to do an interview to promote it. And he, part of that was a profile interview

in The Guardian, and he was interviewed at the King's Cross in one of the, in the hotel

there, in one of the hotel rooms. And the guy from the Guardian came down, and I don't

even know why, I don't even know why it came up.

Um, but I made a joke and he said, ah, in sincerity your specialty, Gosh, you asking

me to get inside the mind of Jimmy Saville to think about what he meant when he criticized

me? I think he thought that, um, I think that journalistic role where, um, well, I think

part, I think you know what it is, is like the best const, there's two constructions

I can put on that.

One is just that in journalism you sort of required to inhabit this place of intimacy.

Like actually, like, hey, let's do this and let's do that, and then afterwards you sort

of disconnect and sometimes that can feel jarring. I don't think actually that's what

he meant though. Like I think, I think maybe in some cases there's a, there's a pop journalism

that can feel slightly in sort of transactional where you're like, let's grow down on location

and, and have fun.

And, and yet if you looked at it. dispassionately. It's slightly cynical and calculating. It's

like, well, you're doing this for a TV program. And, and so there's a part that slightly feel

a little bit uncomfortable. I think really what he was talking about, there was a sense

of humor. Um, he was, he was calling out my sense of humor, which is sometimes an aspect

of it, which sometimes involves, um, almost self parody, like an element of where you

say something, uh, almost as a way of par sort of paring or satirizing your own.

This isn't gonna make any sense, Steve, but you satirize your own worst impulses. The

best example I can give is when I said to, um, when I was with Neil and Christine Hamilton,

right. I did a program and they were accused of sexual assault and, and while I filmed

with them, and then I, uh, and they would become media circus and I carried on filming,

and then they did a deal with the male on Sunday.

to sell their story. And I was interviewing them during all of this and I said to Christine,

how, how much did the mail on Sunday pay for you, uh, for the interview? I was just curious.

Cuz I knew probably they got 10 or 15 or 20,000 pounds and I was just curious. And Christine

said, I'm not gonna tell you.

And I said to Christine, Christine, this is me. I'm not a journalist, I'm a friend. Like

you can tell me. And a lot of people gave me shit for it. Right? Like that what I said.

But in my mind, like that was a funny thing to say because quite obviously, um, I am a

journalist and whether I'm a friend or not is actually not established.

I'm not clearly not a friend, but I'm not also clearly a friend. Right. So that was

kind of a funny remark because I was being nakedly insincere, which is fun. Like sometimes

to me, what's funny is saying, But not like sort of saying the wrong thing, saying the

thing that sort brazen as a way of, of just sort of identifying the hypocrisy and having

fun with it.

So I, I tend to think that, I think that's what Jimmy Saville meant was that sometimes

I would say things that would kind of definitively either untrue or quite clearly being said

because they were not clearly true. Anyway, that's way you asked that question. And then

when you ask a question about Jimmy Saval, I'm gonna give you a long answer because it's

easy to be misconstrued.

But I think that's what he meant. I think I'm in general, like fairly, um, a fairly

straight up person, but I also think that the tendency to believe your own bullshit

to drink your own Kool-Aid is, is almost universal, almost a precondition of life. Right. You

know, NTHA, the German philosopher. Uh, who I try not to quote too much cuz it makes me

sound pretentious, but he has, he has a couple of really good quotes on this where one is,

um, for the true deceiver, you know, for the most effective deceiver, first he must believe

his own deceptions.

I, I'm mangling that quotation. But the idea that in order to con someone, you sort of

have to believe the most effective con artist is the one who believes their own con, you

know, you and, you know, like, or a seducer, like they say that about Casanova, you know,

one of the most, um, notorious womanizers, um, in human history.

And they say that he actually, each time he seduced someone, he fell in love with them.

You know, and maybe it's true for sales in general. Like, you really gotta, if you believe

in that. And, and so I'm, I'm fully aware that for me to say like I'm an authentic human

being and that my journalism relies on. A kind of true connection.

I'm, I'm, I, you know, the little part me thinks like, I think, I believe that, um,

I'm pretty sure I, I pre, I know I do believe that, but I'm not my own best reference on

whether or not that's really the case. I neglected my personal life to focus on achieving some

sort of per professional success. The price of my lack of emotional mouse was paid by

those nearest and dearest to me.

When did you get that feedback? Cause I remember the times in my life where I've got that feedback

from friends, family, romantic partners, and at first, sometimes we sometimes argue against

it. We, oh, fuck off. And then we walk away and we go, eh, this is true. I think I've

had that feedback in my relationships more or less, um, consistently.

Uh, and, and until maybe. Four or five, six years ago. Like, I think, again, I feel like

I'm reviewing my own book. Like, and now folks, I am happy and healthy and well adjusted,

and I've arrived at a spiritual place of tranquility. But I do, I am conscious that I, um, all through

my twenties and thirties, I saw my relationships as a, um, I think, I think the other phrase

I use is, is like I saw my relationships as sort of life support system for my kinda work

self.

Do you know what I mean? Amen. I can relate instead of the other way around, you know?

And so I would say like, well, I would take off when I went. Worked for Michael Moore.

It was even back in, in the nineties. It was a source of friction in the relationship that,

like, without much warning, cause I became the fillin guy who, when other stake people

couldn't do segments or because they were, they found, weren't available, weren't stressed

about it, I, I'd be like, let's get Louie to do it.

I, I, I did a lot of great segments just by being available at a moment's notice to fly

somewhere and, and never thought really, which I don't know that, that it was the wrong thing

to do at that time. We didn't have kids. Um, and so I'd be like, okay, I'm off for three

or four days. And um, but as it went on and then as I had kids, um, and I was still doing

the same thing, sort of saying to my wife, well this is what I do.

There's a chapter in my book called This is What I Do. You know, you knew when we married

that we would be, um, that I was a sort of globe trotting TV documentary maker. And she,

um, She said, yeah, what did I do? When we, when we met, I was a TV director as well,

and I've changed what I do and you need to change what you do.

Like, I don't mean to sound like she was being horrible about it, but her attitude was like,

people make a, you need to make an adjustment to accommodate the fact that we now have two

small children. And how did you receive that? Um, at first I think I received that as

well. Not, not well. Like I, it didn't make me angry, but it, I, I was somewhat inflexible

because my attitude was, look, I was, because I went, you know, I, my parents had, my dad

traveled a lot for work. My mom was a full-time TV producer and we had people at home op pairs

who, um, who made sure that when we got home someone was there and would make us a meal.

And so I was like, well, we just need to get help. She said, I don't want, I don't want.

Us to get help. I said, you, she said, well, I said, I said, you can do whatever you wanna

do. You, you can carry on working five days a week, six days. You can travel as well if

you want. We just need to get help. And she's like, I don't, I want one of us to be here

and I want for some of that.

I want it to be you. I don't know. Does that sound so you sound like me. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. And I was like, well, I said, I, I guess I don't see it that way. So it became a bit

of an impa impasse for a while. And then, and then, um, well then we had another child

and um, and she said, well, now we've got a baby and two small children and you've agreed

to take, to make sure you only work in the.

And I was like, did I agree to that? And she said yes. And I couldn't remember it, but

I was like, well, she's probably right. And um, did you make rules? I read that you made

some rules, you had a rule that I wouldn't go away for more than two weeks. And um, and

actually for most of the time it was between sort of a week and 10 or 12 days.

Are you flexible now? Well, I don't wanna make my wife sound like, I know there's some

people I hear that and go like, well, you know, Louis was obviously bringing back the

bigger wage and, and so he should have been. I, I honestly think my wife was right about

most of that. I feel the same way about my partner and it's almost identical that it,

it took me to find the right person to compromise my inflexibility where they, they made the

case to me that quality time and this relationship was actually an equal priority, let's say,

to the work and with the right person, I was finally willing to bend.

And I was finally willing to, you know? Yeah. So, but I think it takes the right person.

Yeah. To me it does. Anyway. Yeah. The right person, the right relationship, the right

life stage. Yeah. I also say that these interviews I'm doing, part of that is an agreement that

we made, well, even in agreement, a kind of agreement I made with myself in lockdown and

being around my kids are now 16, 14, and eight.

You know, turns out older children in many respects need more management, need more sort

of parental presence in their lives than younger children. And so I said, well, maybe a way

for me to travel less and not be taking off for, you know, two or three months a year,

cuz you aggregate those two week trips or 10 and they add up to maybe a quarter or a

third of the year.

And now I, I can, I can, my schedule is much more, I said like, if I do these interview.

And we make TV shows in the uk and that there's a more controllable schedule, and I could

be around more. Nancy helped me set up the company. She's working more, I'm home more.

And so it's actually like, it turns out conforming to those expectations of family involvement.

It is really positive. Like it can actually be a creative boon. You know? It's not the

enemy necessarily. It can be, it can make you a more rounded person that ends up being

beneficial. That's exactly what I used to think it was. I used to think it was the enemy

of my professional success, but I've come to learn that it may be the friend.

It's the, yeah, it serves it. Um, you mentioned anxiety throughout this conversation. Now

sometimes when people talk about anxiety, they talk about it as in. Like an emotion.

They kind of, it's a flippant word to describe a situation where you're thinking a little

bit much, but then there's what people would describe as sort of real anxiety that kind

of crippling like, ooh, you know, that we've all felt that like insane and shakeable sort

of deep nervousness about a situation and worry.

Which one are you referring to? Uh, I think the first one, I, I don't think I've ever

had a panic attack, for example. Um, I don't think I've ever had a feeling of, um, kind

of in being incapacitated. I mean, I've had moments where I've had stage fright or moment,

you know, that, that thing where due to you, you just get, even recently, like there's

been moments where you just get this sort tremulous feeling of nerves and your voice

starts to shake.

Have you ever had that where you've been in a situation where, or sometimes it's just,

sometimes it, it's to do with you're in a. , you get into an argument with someone and

you get really upset and your voice goes a bit like this. Like it doesn't, you know,

it was just kind of horrible. Uh, or sometimes it's just where you feel like you are.

Like I've been once or twice in, in situations where, um, I just think, oh, this isn't going

well. And then your, your confidence goes. I mean, dunno if that's quite, that's sort

of nerves which are slightly different from anxiety. Anxiety, like where, but the anxiety

I mainly mean is just a kind of sense of foreboding, a pervasive feeling of, um, of worry about

something that's gonna happen.

Because one of the things we talk a lot about on this podcast is about mental health and

about how that affects people that are in high profile, high stress positions. What's

your, you know, mental health is a topic that kind of emerged in cultural relevance about

maybe a decade ago now. But when I was a kid I didn't understand it.

I didn't know what that was. And I, I be honest, I think the stigma was very much my belief.

It was kinda like, people are crazy. Some people are crazy. Yeah. Um, what's your journey

been like with your own mental health? I feel really lucky to have, um, broadly speaking,

good mental health. I also think what you're saying is exactly right and I think that there's

a kind of, there's a continuity, a blurring that exists so that, um, you, I think mental

health as opposed to mental illness is a good way of thinking about it like that.

Cuz actually, um, we should all be striving toward, Being our best selves, we should be

managing our anxiety. I think a lot of men especially fail even to recognize when their

mental health may not be as good as it could be. And the extreme end, you've got incapacitating

mental illness that requires a set of interventions, possibly medication, even sort of residential

rehab settings.

But for, for, for the rest of us, it's just a, it's keeping an eye on, on how you're doing

and, and no, you know, sometimes I notice my emotions from the outside. Like, I, I notice

that my voice is raised. I'm like, wow, I'm angry. You know, like, or, or, and even when

I'm sad I, or grumpy or whatever it is, I'm not the first really to see it.

Or my wife will say like, are you in a bad place? I think we've been guilty of failing

to see mental health as a holistic condition. Like in other words, that. Your support network

needs to be in place. You need social inter, these are really basic, but you need social

interaction. You need, you need, um, exposure to things outside of work.

You also need endorsement and approval in work. And all of these things need to be sort

of pulling in the same direction. And there may be people in your life who are undermining

you and you may need support from people to nudge you in the right direction. But, you

know, not to sound really bland about it, I feel as though I've, um, you know, through,

through sort of my wife's so perceptiveness and her ability to sort of see how, how just

so involved me in life a bit more that that's, um, that's kept me in a good place.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast, which, Which is the previous guest writes

a question for the next guest. Oh, wow. Okay. And the previous guest, you don't get to know

who the previous guest was, but the previous guest has written a question, um, for you

not knowing it was for you, and they said, what is your opinion on hallucinogens?

Hallucinogens? Um, I, my opinion is, I think, um, you know, if you, if, if you feel like

you are, if you're of age like 18 plus, I dunno how your younger listeners are, you

know, maybe even maybe slightly older. Um, and you feel like you've got solid mental

health. I think it's a, it's not a bad avenue to go down.

It's not something I've massively dabbled in. Um, I've noticed, I dunno about you, I,

in my social settings, um, it seems to be mushroom oil. It's something that's increasingly

being used. Uh, And I think actually in a, you know, in a, and I think we're all aware

of the slight, there's sort of dissonance between our levels of acceptance of alcohol

and then the sort of relative unacceptance of things like whether it's marijuana or mushrooms

and mushroom oil.

Like, I'd like to see that leveled out. Like I'd like to see as it is in California and

elsewhere, I'd like to see cannabis legalized and, um, I think mushroom oil, without giving

too much. Could be really positive

from what I understand. Louis, thank you so much for your time today. Pleasure so much

from you for, for so many reasons. Um, and your new documents on the bbc, BBC two, and

on I Player Lou through interviews is incredible. Yeah, you're six them out there, they're right

now. Um, they're incredible and you're interviewing some incredible people that are, are being

very vulnerable and open with you.

But thank you for the inspiration as well. You're someone that I've watched for the,

for decades. Thanks Steve. And that's given me a life full of enjoyments and thank you

for coming and doing this. Pleasure. Quick one. Right now, one of my sponsors on this

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