Man, we're going in a real dark place.

I've never talked about this stuff out

loud.

The American entrepreneur broadcaster

Tom Bill.

I'm about to ruin that [ __ ] good

mood.

I tried to believe I was special and

either luck of the draw or the fact that

I really am average, I would always run

into somebody better than me. I was

sliding rapidly towards depression.

The breakthrough for me was to accept

that I was hopelessly average and that

that was still going to allow me to be

successful. I can sum up personal

responsibility in a single quote by Kobe

Bryant. Booze don't block dunks. The

most insidious thing about excuses, you

have a valid reason to feel like a

victim, but the question is, is that

going to serve you moving forward? When

I reflect on how many people in our

society are feeling anxious these days,

is there something we are just

fundamentally doing wrong about the way

that we're living our lives?

Yes.

And what is that?

I would lose respect for myself if I

didn't say this. So, here it goes.

So, without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO

USA edition. I hope nobody's listening,

but if you are, then please keep this to

yourself.

[Music]

The story you tell yourself about

yourself is the single most important

thing you're going to craft.

Facts.

I was watching a compilation of things

you'd said upstairs before I came

downstairs. And that really stuck out to

me because when I think about the the

Tom Billy story that I know, it's the

question that I find so repeatedly

uh fascinating is how a man went from

what you told me in our last

conversation many years ago. You were

someone that was kind of counted out by

seemingly by your mother, by yourself,

and other people around you, your

current wife's father to this guy that I

see as the antithesis of that. How did

you what did or how did you change that

self story? Well, the how I changed that

story is so rudimentary that I wish

people would take me seriously. So the

only belief that matters is that if I

put energy and effort into getting

better, I actually will get better. And

so you can look at anything and say,

"Okay, maybe I suck at this right now,"

which was the key realization for my

life. Okay, I'm I actually am not good.

Like my father-in-law wasn't crazy. I

really wasn't anywhere useful for his

daughter at that time. My mom wasn't

crazy. I really was lazy. Like, so she

was just picking up on the fact that I

was tremendously lazy. She wanted me to

be successful, but she was just looking

at my behavior. And so, I hadn't been

misidentified. People just didn't

calculate how much I could change and

that I would so grasp on to the ability

to change as an emotional life raft. And

so, the the big switch was that I

decided to believe that I could get

better. And once I made that decision,

it aligned my behaviors with skill

acquisition. And that's all life is,

acquire skills. When I reflect on this

idea of like choosing your beliefs, I

think one of the things that people will

comes to front of mind is it's very hard

to believe something if you don't have

some kind of subjective evidence for

that thing. And when I think about my

own confidence or my own personal

growth, a lot of it came from some type

of subjective evidence. So, I didn't

believe that I could speak in front of

people because I'd never done it before.

And when I hear a lot of the narrative

in the self-development community that

you there's some some narrative in the

self-development community that you need

to look in the mirror in the morning and

say, "I am great. I am a millionaire. I

am successful.

I've never once done that.

Yeah. And this is the this is the the

fine line I'm trying to understand is

why is that [ __ ] Because that's

someone apparently choosing or, you

know, affirming that they are something.

I I don't think it actually is [ __ ]

It just isn't going to get you very far.

So, if what you're hung up on is you

just can't ever fathom that being true,

then saying it may begin to form this

like just like it erodess this lack of

belief that it's possible. Now, my

problem is when people think that just

saying it out loud is going to make it

come true. That for sure isn't true. So,

your behavior is ultimately all that

matters. So if you make all the right

decisions but you have like you

absolutely think that it's impossible

for you but you still do the right

things, you will win. The problem is

that if you believe that it's never

going to happen for you, you won't take

the steps. And so when you look at how

hard something is and you get partway

down that road and you're like, "Wow,

this is really hard. It's making me

confront my insecurities. This does not

feel good and I don't believe it's

possible anyway." Then why would you

keep going? And the answer is you

wouldn't. And so nobody does. And so

everybody who believes it's impossible

and encounters the difficulties that

success will demand of everybody, they

stop 100% of the time. And so by looking

at yourself in the mirror and saying, "I

am a millionaire. I'm a genius." Like

all this stuff, it may function as some

eroding mechanism to those

entrenched beliefs that it's never going

to happen for you. That would not work

for me because there's a part of my

brain that just screams, "This is

bullshit." Like, you know, this is

[ __ ] So for me, I had to align with

what do I believe to be true about

humans? I needed to be I needed to

accept that I was average. That was a

huge moment for me because I tried to

believe I was special and either luck of

the draw or the fact that I really am

average. I've always been around a

substantial number of people that are

smarter than me or faster than me or

stronger than like literally everything,

every niche I tried to find, I would

always run into somebody better than me.

And it was devastating, like really

devastating. And

the breakthrough for me was to accept

that I was hopelessly average and that

that was still going to allow me to be

successful. And so for me, the

breakthrough was reading about the

brain, like just brain science and

understanding brain plasticity. And so

once I understood, whoa, like your brain

actually can change. So that means that

just because I'm not good at something

today doesn't mean I can't good at it

get good at it tomorrow. And so it was

like, well, wait a second. If the

average human is actually designed to

get better, like that is our fundamental

design, not that I'm special, not that

I'm smarter than anybody, but once I

realized, oh my god, that is what the

the DNA of the human animal is designed

to do is learn and grow from context.

And so then it was just like, okay,

word. Like if you're going to just focus

on being the learner, then get your

sense of pride out of being willing to

admit what you're not good at and to sit

at somebody else's feet and learn. And

all of my success is a result of that.

Tremendous self-awareness. Even the use

of the word realization, that

realization that you were pursuing um

something as opposed to something else

and you were able to kind of separate

yourself from your ego or at least look

look down on it and understand the the

the the role it was having on your

decision-m self-awareness and then huge

humility. Are these skills?

Yes, because I didn't have them in the

beginning.

Interesting.

Now, self-awareness is a double-edged

sword. I didn't have any when I was a

kid and I didn't have anxiety. As I have

really leaned into developing

self-awareness, it's actually made me

more anxious

really

because I'm hyper aware of what I'm not

good at, what I am good at, how I'm

being perceived, how I perceive myself

that things matter. Like this this is

man when I really try to shake this off

the thing that I keep coming back to is

life has consequences and building and

selling a billion dollar company has

consequences like they're amazing.

So getting good at something and winning

can change your life and those things

are powerful. And so it's like I

realized the game I'm playing. I

realized the stakes. And so, one of the

things that I really have to focus on

now is like

I don't value that stuff. I need to be

careful not to value that stuff. That

what matters, the thing that you started

this off, the only thing that matters is

how you feel about yourself when you're

by yourself. And all the success in the

world can't touch that. But you're

constructing that in your own mind.

You're constructing a value system. You

are constructing beliefs. Now, most of

the time, you don't realize that you're

constructing them. So they're invisible.

You just see cool [ __ ] and you think,

"Wow, that's cool." You don't realize

that in saying, "Wow, that's cool." You

just made a value judgment. You

reinforce that in your own mind. And now

in some subtle way, you're moving

towards that and judging yourself

against whether you have that or not. So

you have to keep coming back to what's

cool is feeling good about myself.

What's cool is having a dope marriage.

What's cool is getting better. What's

cool is sitting at somebody's feet and

learning something new. So I have to

reinforce that value system because from

an evolutionary standpoint we have all

these weird things baked in already. So

50% of you is just baked in and then 50%

of you is created really subtly from the

time you are a child and you have no

idea that you're absorbing and creating

these belief systems that are governing

your value system that are governing

what you think is worthy of respect.

Which means if you think that the only

thing worthy of respect is tremendous

success, then you'll put yourself on

that wheel trying to earn your own

respect. And then if you don't get it,

you'll be in the dumps. And then if you

do get it, you're going to realize it

didn't matter in the first place because

you have these embedded things in your

brain. And here's the most insidious.

You will get this more than most. There

is no amount of success big enough that

you can stand in it forever.

There's no meal big enough, no feast

overwhelming enough that you never need

to eat again, no drink so thirst

quenching that you don't need to drink

again. We get that with like the bodily

stuff. No sex so great that you don't

want sex again. So why is it that we

think that success would be any

different? And people think it is. They

think I I will have reached that, right?

Like if you read my resume, it sounds

like I should just permanently be happy,

right? You sold a billion dollar

company. You live in a really fancy

house. You've got a lot of money. It

doesn't work like that. None of that

stuff carries any weight with me today.

I have to earn my self-respect every

day. And so I have to be really careful

what I choose to value because that will

determine how I feel about myself when

I'm by myself, which is ultimately all

that matters.

You mentioned the anxiety that comes

with that self-awareness. Now what what

is cuz what I heard there was this kind

of expectation that you're placing on

yourself which is part of the bakedin

part of Tom is that the thing causing

the anxiety now anxiety is really

complex. So let's start with diet. The

biggest change that I made to my anxiety

was stopping drinking uh sugar-free

Monster which I love by the way

absolutely love them. Uh, but there's

something, right? There's something in

them that causes my microbiome to get

out of whack and I will feel really

anxious. So, I used to have generalized

anxiety disorder. I couldn't even tell

you why I felt anxious. I just did all

the time. And finally, I realized there

was a component of diet. So, I no longer

get generalized anxiety. Now, I will

still get anxious if I'm dealing with

something that's really like the stakes

are really high and it really matters to

me. So, I have to I've had to learn

meditation. that changed my life in ways

that I can't even convey. So, that's

been really important. But it is it and

some of it is going to be just the way

that I'm wired. I have I don't have an

addictive personality, but I have an

obsessive mind. Now, my obsessive mind

has led to my success because I will

think about problems all the time. And

so, like, I'm actually a really slow

thinker, but people give me all this

credit because I can talk fast, but I

talk fast because I've thought about it

obsessively for days, weeks, months,

years, depending on what thing we're

talking about. But that rumination I in

fact, I was just talking to uh um a guy

that does uh he doesn't like the term

hypnotherapy, but everybody will

understand that idea. So, he's really

wellversed in hypnosis. And he said

people break into three personality

types. And the personality type that

struggles the most is the personality

type that both experiences the world

incredibly emotionally but then has an

analytical mind that ruminates on the

emotions. And that's where I'm at. So I

experience the emotional gamut of life.

And it's incredible. I would never want

to not. It's wonderful.

Life is is a roller coaster of um

incredible

highs and lows. and meditation and my

belief system allow me to even that out

so that I never get too out of whack in

any direction.

But I'll loop on ideas and if it's a

negative idea about myself, I'll loop

and loop and loop and loop and loop. And

so that's why I said at the beginning,

what you allow yourself to repeat is

really going to determine the quality of

your life. And so I have to really get

good at interrupting that. So that's why

meditation is the key for me to dealing

with anxiety. like as I can feel it

ratcheting up, it's really my mind

ruminating on all the ways that it could

go wrong. And so I have to find a way to

insert myself to break that rehearsal of

failure and instead force myself to

focus on rehearsing success, which it's

almost silly, but it really does drop my

anxiety to next to nothing. But I have

to really forcefully insert myself.

Does it always work that process? There

are things that are so high in amplitude

that it's like, okay, this is really

like stressing me out. Um,

but yeah, it always works. I've never

been more than 45 minutes away from

complete equinimity

really.

And that's that's going through things

that are where there's hundreds of

millions of dollars on the line. It's

like really really stressful.

I've experienced anxiety too. And I

before I had experienced it, I I think I

experienced it in my mid20ies for the

first time when my business got really

really difficult and when the stakes got

really really high. I always thought it

was something that others other other

people experienced. I never thought it

would be something that would find me

and um so my perspective and my this is

why I'm so compelled by the concept

because it did find me and I couldn't

believe it did. I couldn't believe it

when it did because as I said I thought

it was something that some kind of you

know maybe chemical disorder. When I

reflect on how many people in our

society are feeling anxious these days,

it be pulls into question, is there

something we are just fundamentally

doing wrong about the way that we're

living our lives?

Yes.

And what is that?

Diet is the biggest problem. You think

it's

100%. If you were if you said you can

have what you can make one change to

somebody's life, what change would you

make to lower their anxiety? 100% their

diet. Now, once that's regulated, it

doesn't mean that it goes away. I still

have anxiety. But when I think I've

reduced it by 70% through diet alone.

Now the remaining 30% is still a pain.

So you really do want to address it. And

for that I've had to turn to meditation.

I've had to insert myself into my

ruminating thoughts and be very

thoughtful about that. I've had to

adjust my belief system so that I'm not

afraid of failure. Like there are a lot

of things that I've had to do to get

myself to that place. Um but if I could

only make one change, it would be that.

Now,

living in the social media era is

amazing. It's amazing, man. And it's

given so much. And I think it's given

far more than it takes. But you really

have to be careful like to give people

an idea.

I have had a lot of success. I have a

lot of the worldly things that people

want. And even I can look at somebody's

house. If people saw my house and then

they hear the following statement, they

will laugh. But I can look at someone's

house and be like, "Yo, that's a house."

Right? So, uh, it never ends, right? So,

it's like if I pee out and I had the

best house in the world, I'd be like,

"Yeah, but Elon Musk just built a rocket

that can carry 300 people to Mars."

Like, what have I done? So, there's

always some other thing. So, you just

you've got to be psychotically careful

about what you allow yourself to value

yourself for because I value

achievement. I think it's extraordinary.

I'm very glad that I have that. It makes

me strive. It's pushed me to be a better

version of myself. But at the same time

I have to be really careful not to let

it damage my sense of self which it will

do very rapidly. And I think every we we

have to agree that there is a north star

and for optimizing a human life. And I

will say that which reduces suffering

and elevates the individual to

fulfillment. Those would be my two

things. reduce human suffering in

yourself and others and elevate your

sense of fulfillment in yourself and

help other people do the same. Like that

seems to be the cocktail for the most

resilient

mental state you could hope for so that

even as life goes up and down and you

win and lose and people are born and

people die. I mean, we're all going to

go through just unrelenting misery from

time to time. It just is. Um, and the

only way to even all of that out is to

pursue those two things. Now, once we

have that, then you start optimizing for

lifestyle and beliefs and your thought

patterns and all of that stuff.

I really do feel like if you removed

social media, you'd remove a tremendous

amount of anxiety and obviously

everyone's context would get smaller.

So, the comparison part, I mean, there's

various reasons, front of mind reasons

why I think social media causes people

to be anxious. One of them is obviously

all the feedback we get about our

success, our achievements, our projects,

whatever. And the other is um the

feedback we go searching for via

comparison.

So me looking out at the world, which is

now billions of people on my phone,

whereas once upon a time, my human

design probably um I was probably

designed to deal with about 20 or maybe,

you know, a small tribe.

You could also optimize here. Here is

the brutal thing. put out a tweet, like

put out a hot take, but something you

really believe in, like that really

matters to you and and you're moved by

it and you feel like you're adding

something positive to the world, like

put out one of those tweets. It will not

be universally loved.

I've done that last week and it was torn

to pieces.

Yep.

And it was like in newspapers.

That is that is emotionally brutal.

Yeah.

And when you realize that, man, I just

want to like connect. I want I want to

put something rad out into the world,

but then people kick you in the face.

And it makes you want to turtle up. And

so it's this weird exercise of like you

have to divorce yourself from what other

people think, which is powerful if you

can do it, but we're the human animal.

And so you can't ever, I think,

completely detach. We are, as I like to

say, we are both the shout and the echo.

So we are what we say, do, and believe,

but we're also what people tell us about

the things that we say, do, and believe.

And it matters because we're a tribe

animal.

So yeah, it gets real weird. And then

you and I are both into web 3 in a big

way. The only thing I know that's going

to be more devastating to mental health

than web two and social media is web 3.

But it's also incredible and it's so

life-changing that we have to find a way

to mitigate some of the bad. But you're

taking all of the things of web two and

putting money on top of it. And so now

people are really freaking out.

Why is it going to be worse web three?

Because it's money. You're playing with

people's money. And so now it's not fun

in games anymore. It's like people are

they're oftentimes investing more than

they should in something. And so it will

be bad for them because now something

that they otherwise could have enjoyed

becomes incredibly stressful. And for

the creators, we're going to destroy a

lot of creators who are just like,

"Yeah, I'm not I I can't. This isn't fun

anymore." Like, it was fun, but I've now

taken money for this thing. I have

obligations. You have to be honest about

that. But if like, it's not going well.

Most people are not going to have the

the tools that they need to grapple with

that, to work through problems, to

improve, to get better. Like, it's just

going to be really hard. And so when you

take the the ability for people all over

the world to tell you what they think

and then you let them invest money, now

it gets it gets crazy real fast and

we're already seeing projects implode

because the creator was maybe an artist

who's already wearing their heart on

their sleeve and it just doesn't work

and they're not able to deal with that

and then the project poof.

it goes away. And I don't think that

most people had ill intent. Of course,

there are people that have ill intent,

but I don't think most of them do, but

they're just it's a business and they

don't know how to run a business. A lot

of we've talked about a lot of stress,

pressure, tension, and all the [ __ ]

that comes with striving. You said

achievement and striving is very

important. What is the cocktail the the

ingredients that you now need for that

fulfillment that you described earlier?

All right. I actually have a as close as

you're going to get to a conceptual math

equation here. Okay. So fulfillment is

very simple for me. So and it has to do

with the directives that are embedded in

your brain from an evolutionary

standpoint. So you must work hard. It's

embedded in your brain to acquire skills

that matter to you that allow you to

elevate yourself and others in service

of a goal that's both exciting and

honorable. So exciting and honorable

means that you're just amped about it.

You dig it. So I dig storytelling. just

I do and I want to help people through

storytelling. I do. My life

circumstances have led me to that. The

way that I'm hardwired, I just have an

over um an outsized response to stories.

And so I'm drawn to that and because of

life experience, I want to use stories

to help people. So that's very exciting

for me. Now, it's also honorable because

I'm not just looking to make myself rich

or be admired for telling a cool story.

I actually want to help people with that

story and I hold myself accountable to

that. So when you have that cocktail,

you're working hard to garner a set of

skills that allow you to serve not only

yourself but other people. It that's

fulfillment. So people can say whatever

they want. And I know like if I'm

actually out there every day doing my

best to help people, I'm going to feel

good about that. Now, I'm not going to

feel good about people misunderstanding

that. That's still going to suck. But I

know what's in my heart. And so if I'm

like, "No, for real. I'm showing up no

matter what people say. I really am

showing up to help people." then that

will give you the emotional resilience

that you need to see yourself through.

So fulfillment is

it's able to withstand even moments of

unhappiness. And when you have

fulfillment, the thing that you believe

in that you're fighting for, then it

gets easier to push through, you know,

whatever frustrations, difficulties, the

mob coming after you, whatever. If you

don't have that and it was you were just

trying to be famous or get approval and

it feels like the entire world is piling

on you, you just are like, "Yeah, I'm

done with this." So, there really has to

be something you're fighting for.

You know, when you do interviews and you

make content, and you do that a lot,

right? So, you're very much like me over

this side of the table. When I make

content, sometimes the thing that's

front of mind comes through.

So, if I'm if this week or that's why

before we started recording, I asked you

the question, what's front of mind? The

thing that's front of mind tends to come

through. I can't help it. So if I sit

here with a guest and they are a a chef,

I'll end up talking about the thing that

happened like two days ago and I can

kind of I kind of get that a little bit

from you that you that one of the things

that's front of mind is like I'm maybe

I'm totally wrong is dealing with the

external criticism from the mob who are

questioning something that to you came

from a place of sincerity and

authenticity. is that

since we started since I started being

on camera that has been front of mind

like you really have to deal with that

and when I first started so I first

stepped in front of the camera like

seven years eight years ago something

like that and I was like I'm not sure I

really want to do this and I wrote an

article that I thought was it really was

like Tom what is the like the the most

life-changing thing you've realized that

you could offer as an idea to other

people and that would change their life.

And I wrote this article about how if

you get hit, and in fact, I'm going to

light myself on fire again because I

know how people respond to this, but

this is really what I wrote. If you get

hit by a drunk driver, it's all your

fault. And that's amazing because you

could do something about it. You could

do something different next time and get

a different result. Now, of course, I no

longer use the word fault because that

just does not lead me anywhere

productive. But that was the article and

people lit me on fire and I was shocked

to my core. I I cannot tell you dude

when I hit publish on that I was like oh

my god people are going to love this.

It's going to change so many lives. This

is going to be incredible. And then you

people were not loving it. And so I was

like whoa. Okay. So that was

extraordinarily eye opening. Um,

but because I really am trying to help

like this was

working at Quest, working in the inner

cities, you realize or at least my big

revelation having big brothered for a

kid in the inner cities when I was much

younger and seeing what it was doing to

him and then having a thousand employees

that grew up in the inner cities and

being like, "Oh my god, like this is

your zip code in most of the developed

world, whatever the equivalent of zip

code is, is the number one predictor of

your future success. And so I was like,

there's got to be a way to help people

with that. And the conclusion I came to

is it's this set of ideas that are

timeless. They have nothing to do with

me, but I have a way of explaining them

through how I had to struggle with them.

And so maybe I'm able to say it in a way

that certain people will hear. And so

between writing, between being on

camera, between um the stories that I

hope to tell that I can embed these

ideas and get them across. And it does.

They're in today's world. I've been

given a gift, which is social media,

which is web 3, which is going to allow

me to expand all of this and reach

people I never could have dreamed of

reaching before. But it comes with the

the other side which is you put

something out that really is coming from

a good place and people still are not

loving it. Like I I my wife and I do

this show um called Relationship Theory

and I did a thing when I say even now

relisting to it I can't believe that at

least half of the people that hear it

are just infuriated.

And it's about like how to you know

develop a good sex relationship with

your partner. I send clips to my

girlfriend.

Oh my god. And and people were just

like, "Who the [ __ ] does this guy think

he is?" I'm like, "Wow." So anyway, you

really do like we we are raising a

generation of people that need to

develop incredible mental resilience

against that if you want to be able to

engage with this incredible gift that is

the web and being able to communicate to

large groups of people. But it really

does require like developing a value

system and a belief system that's going

to

make you resilient to that because it

isn't easy even for me. And I've spent a

lot of time building the resilience and

I'm older. So it's like a lot of the

things that probably would have thrown

me off in my 20s now don't. But it's a

thing for sure.

That article seemed just from the title

seemed to be one that centers on like

personal responsibility. Am I guessing

that correctly? You then use the word

eye opening because I imagine what you

wrote there still to this day you

believe to be true

to the core of my existence.

So the word eye openening is

illuminating for me because it means

that it taught you something not about

what you had written but about the

reaction to what you'd written and about

the people reacting. What is it you've

learned about why personal

responsibility is and I've seen on this

podcast like if I'm going to be

counseledled for anything it's probably

there's a number of things but my

pursuit of like being a champion for

personal responsibility is up there. Mo

Gaat sat here and said when he published

his book he he open sources it to 500

people and he says he loses about I

think it was 10% of people they just

click off the document when they get to

the personal responsibility part they're

just seem to be inherently offended by

it

where is the truth

what can be done

okay so this goes back to what we were

talking about earlier which is I just

know people are going to uh just really

love this section uh but I can't help

myself I would lose respect for myself

if I didn't say this stuff. I could see

myself one day not being on camera

anymore. I can't ever see myself saying

something that I don't believe to be

true. So, here it goes. You have to have

a belief system that is both true and

optimistic.

Personal responsibility is true and

wildly optimistic. And it is people's

belief system and the value system that

they cobble together over a lifetime

that will lead them to reject that. And

all I can say is reject it at your own

peril for the following reason. Personal

responsibility is about remembering you

can do something and change. And I I can

sum up personal responsibility in a

single quote by Kobe Bryant. Booze don't

block dunks. That's personal

responsibility. You can get so good at

something that no matter how much people

hate you, the best athletes in the world

were paid millions of dollars and

trained to stop Kobe Bryant from

scoring. And yet he scored 81 points in

a single game. So you can get so good no

matter how much people hate you, no

matter how much they're training and

trying to defeat you, they can't. And

that is the most exciting thing in the

world to me that wait, you're saying

that I can get so good at something that

at least the vast majority of humanity

can't stop me. There will always, of

course, I'm unfortunately I don't I

don't yet believe that I am Kobe Bryant

in anything that I care about. So, but

that I can get better than the vast

majority of humanity at something by

dedicating my time and energy to that

thing. That is so cool. That is so

liberating. It's changed my life. It's

given me hope. It got me up off the

floor. It It in every possible way, it

has changed my life. It is the thing

that I rely on when I'm feeling my most

anxious. I'm like, I can get better at

this. A word. And then I remember that's

right. Like if I put time and energy

into this, I can get better. So it's

okay if I'm actually not good at this.

If people are coming after me and

saying, "You're stupid. You're seeing

this wrong." I'm like, maybe I really

am. Like maybe there's really something

to learn here. Even with personal

responsibility, if somebody shows me

that taking personal responsibility for

my life is worse than if I didn't, I

would change. But in every metric I have

ever encountered and including all the

people that I've introduced this idea to

that have then gone on to do something

with it, it has made every single one of

their lives better to a person without

exception. And so I'm just like, I want

people to win so badly. I'm wired to

love other people winning almost as much

as I love winning myself. When I was

six, I threw an Easter egg contest so

that my sister would find more eggs than

I did because I knew it meant more to

her. And I just was so happy to see her

win. So like it just that is innate. I

didn't do anything to earn that. I'm not

an extra nice person. Just for whatever

reason, I really enjoy seeing other

people win. And so dude, when I'm giving

these ideas, I'm like, it will help you.

It will help you. You like I'm already

doing it. My life is already a

reflection of this and

it's true and optimistic. Just to bring

it all back around, it is true and

optimistic. And so I hope people embrace

it. I know that some people don't

because they have a value system where

they're getting value out of being in a

helpless position. And that's

heartbreaking because it's it doesn't

feel good. At least it didn't when I was

there.

I'm trying to think of the rebuttals

because I agree that having a bias to

optimism and personal responsibility has

solved all of

Can I give you the rebuttal

please?

So the rebuttal is that societal energy

and momentum really really matter and

that we are the shout and the echo. So

even though if you feel like you are a

victim and that life is out of your

control and it's stacked against you and

there's nothing you can do

when you are the recipient of legitimate

injustice. The world is going to rally

to your side and be like, "Yo, you've

been wronged. We celebrate you. We love

you. We elevate you. Like this is just

so crazy. It should never happen to

you." That will feel awesome. And so

you've been embraced and there is a lot

of cultural momentum around that. Now

the problem is that when you're by

yourself thinking about yourself, you

feel disempowered and it does not feel

good and you're in a very dark [ __ ]

place which is a big reason why I think

right now that people are I mean suicide

is like depending on the age group is

like the number one leading cause of

death for like teenage boys. I mean

that's nuts. So clearly something going

on. So, I don't think people will feel

good about themselves when they're by

themselves if they adopt that value

system. But they are getting huge

emotional rewards from the crowd. Now,

the crowd can't save them again when

they're by themselves, but

to deny that to be embraced for

something like that feels good would be

foolish because it really does feel

good. And I spent time there feeling

sorry for myself for a long time. And

when somebody's like, "Wow, that really

does suck." I was like, "Yeah, man. That

that feels good to be acknowledged." And

so I get it and I want to acknowledge

it, too. Like, it really is when people

have the deck stacked against them. That

really sucks. That really sucks. And

there are I mean, look, I've spent

enough time in the inner cities. There

are people with the deck stacked way

hard against them. But my thing is you

can actually get out and you How about

this? You can make your life a hundred

times better. No matter how bad it is,

you can make it a hundred times better.

And that joy, seeing people do that is

everything. It's everything for them.

It's everything for me as somebody who

just likes to see people win. And I

don't see that same 100x improvement on

people that embrace a different value

system, but it's real and there's a lot

of momentum.

Is that unwillingness to accept that

idea also somewhat linked to people's

own self-esteem? Because when we admit

personal responsibility, for some

people, especially those that have a

lower sort of sense of self-worth, maybe

they see that as evidence of their

further evidence of their own

inadequacy.

I'm going to bend it more to identity.

So, you build your identity and I I have

the deck stacked against me for whatever

reason. And

when that becomes your identity and you

value yourself for that, like I have the

deck stacked against me and I stand

strong in the face of this and you know

I can deal with these slings and arrows

or or I fight back against them and so I

become like I'm really on a mission to

fight against this and all of that

becomes your identity. So now you you

have to give up personal responsibility

to embrace that and to fight for it.

But

you get that, right? You get the tribe.

You get the other people in that

community that feel the same.

But what you've given up is really being

able to change and to acquire skills and

to become capable of more. And so my

obsession is getting people to

understand skills have utility. Now

skills have utility and they let you do

something better than other people. You

can do things that other people can't

do. that's a monetizable b there is

something hardwired in all of us to work

hard to g to gain skills that allow us

to serve the group right as a social

animal you have an imperative buried in

your brain there is no way to escape it

to contribute to the group so if you

embrace personal responsibility you're

going to get all these other kinds of

rewards because you'll be able to

accumulate skill set you will be able to

dunk and people will not be able to stop

you right like that becomes the reality

that you live in it's super intoxicating

because going back to this idea of why

it matters to Make sure that you have a

narrative that is true. Because when

it's true, your predictive machine of a

brain can actually predict how to change

the world to what you want it to be,

which I will define power as the ability

to close your eyes, imagine a world

better than this, open your eyes, gain

the skills you need to make that world

come true. That's power. And to get that

power, you have to acquire skills. To

acquire skills, you have to take

responsibility. To take responsibility,

you have to reject being in the victim

category, even though it's real. Like

that's the other thing I want people to

understand. The most insidious thing

about excuses is that they're so valid.

You have a valid reason to feel like a

victim. You may really be being

victimized, but the question is, is that

going to serve you moving forward? I'm

obsessed. Have you read uh The Long Walk

to Freedom by Nelson Mandela?

No.

Oh my god. You have to read this book.

Like when I say there are few humans I

look at and go I don't think I could

ever be that amazing.

Holy hell. He was in prison for 28

years. And he comes out and he's like,

no, no, no. We're not seeking revenge.

That to to oppress is to give up your

humanity. That was his whole thing. And

so he's like, I feel bad for people who

oppress me because they had to give up

their humanity to do it. So I am

certainly not going to come out and be

the oppressor. That would make no sense.

So it's what I call the third way. This

is me totally. He just didn't use those

words. This is me ripping his ideas off.

But his whole thing was there there are

three paths before you. Remain the

oppressed. Not going to do that. Become

the oppressor. Not going to do that. The

third way is to find that way of unity.

And that's what he was all about. It's

the most insane story. Like nobody ever

earned their bonafides more than Nelson

Mandela by my estimation. And when he

comes out and says, "We need to find the

third way. Only the path of unity makes

any sense." And like just brought people

together and refused to to be in that

victim category, was like, "Nope." Like

what happened happened and now we build

from here. Oh man, that just like it

gives me the chills every time I think

about it. So anyway, that's intoxicating

to me. I am so into that. But I

recognize the cultural momentum on the

other side. And so I know how people end

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There's two points I want to make. I'm

going to make them at the same time. The

second one's a question. The first the

other rebuttal that I think I've heard

before on the topic of personal

responsibility is well Steve Tom you've

got a a privilege of your mindset that

you

I'm white so it's really bad for me and

I'm a guy.

But even your people would will look at

the Tom they see before them today. The

guy that understands these ideas that

has that ability to think through things

slowly as you said but speak about them

very quickly. There seems to be, if I'm

looking at 45-year-old Tom today, a huge

amount of mindset privilege. That's how

it seems. I'm not saying that is I know

some your your prior story very very

clearly. So people say there's this

mindset privilege where it's not easy

just to get up off the floor and just

learn a skill. So when I hear this

article, when I see this article about

it being my fault, I wish it I wish it

was so easy. Tom, I've got chronic deep

depression. The doctors have told me

there's a cycle imbalance in my brain of

a chemical. I I'm at the point of

wanting to end my life. So this article,

it just makes me feel inadequate. It

makes me feel like it's my fault. That's

what I I saw, I read, I felt.

That's that's the thing where I go, what

do we say to those that group?

You ready?

Yeah.

It's all true. And if you have a

neurochemical imbalance, that really

sucks. Like I can just tell you looking

at my mom, I'm prone to anxiety. So

there is um I'm sure if when this all

gets mapped out, it will become clear

that I have markers for anxiety, whether

they were epigenetic or genetic, but

that I came out just primed to become

anxious.

So that sucks for me because I've really

had to contend with anxiety. Like this

is one of the biggest issues in my life.

I think about anxiety almost every day.

So, it is really a thing that I've had

to manage, especially for somebody

striving in the way that I have. So, I'm

constantly putting myself in the

position of being anxious. I remember in

high school, I promised myself I would

never again do anything that made me

nervous. That was the word I used back

then, that I would never again do it.

And yet, my adult life has been a

betrayal of that promise that I made to

myself in high school because all I do

is put myself in situations that make me

anxious. So, but the striving and

getting better has been a reward of

untold proportions. So, when I think

about

we all in some way, we all have it worse

than somebody else, right? So, somebody

with Tourette's that sucks. I would not

want to have Tourette's. Somebody that

gets multiple sclerosis,

that sucks. I would not want that.

Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease,

whatever the thing is that makes your

life worse, it really does make it

worse. But the only thing that compounds

that problem is to lean into that that

it sucks to be me. Whereas take Stephen

Hawking, right?

What are you going to say? What what

advantage did he have? Right? Like he

literally couldn't move. So in his early

20s, he starts losing every function

that he has other than his brain. And he

realizes at one point, this sucks, but

if I in fact, he has a quote. Oh god,

people are really going to hate this.

Stephen Hawking, okay, quadriplegic

in a wheelchair, basically can blow in a

straw and move his eyes. I think towards

the end, like he could only move one

eye. I mean, it was crazy. So, this guy,

there's just not a lot he can do. He's

been spoonfed since he was like 30 years

old. Like, crazy. Crazy. Imagine not

being able to like go to the bathroom by

yourself forever. Like, every time. I

mean, crazy. So this guy says, "What I

have found is that no one will help you

if you don't help yourself." And it just

is, man. We look at somebody who who

despite all of that is like trying to

make contributions to physics or that,

you know, ended up being htick and he

just realized that I can actually get

help from people, but not if I'm not

helping myself first. There's just

something that we respond to.

Are you optimistic? You talked about

this cultural movement. I'm freakishly

optimistic, but because I need a belief

system that is both true and optimistic,

I don't want to fall for traps. And if I

paint myself a falsely optimistic view

of what's real, I'll get tripped up. And

so

optimistic about that personal

responsibility movement,

everything.

Are you optimistic that

oh that that will gain momentum?

That that it will um lose momentum. It

has lost so much momentum just in my

lifetime that the pendulum is swinging

so hard in that direction. So, I don't

know if it swings back in the next 5

years, the next 50 years. It will swing

back. But if now we're going to really

derail. But I remember as a 16-year-old

boy reading about Roman orgies and I was

so angry because I was like, "How is it

possible that they were having orgies

2,000 years ago and me now in like the

mid '9s, like my mom would have a

seizure. I wasn't allowed to go see the

movie Basic Instinct." So it's like I

was like, "How did we go in my sixth

brain? How did we go backwards?" I was

like I I feel betrayed by all the

generations between Roman orgies and now

I was like how did we end up here? It's

cyclical. Everything is cyclical. And so

once you understand the cycles one, it

can be a little daunting. So if you read

Ray Dallio's book, Principles for

Dealing with a Changing World order,

no.

Oh, it's going to [ __ ] up your sleep. So

you're welcome.

Thank you. But he uh he outlines he goes

back he goes back I think to like 500

BCE but he really focuses on the last

500 years and he shows you this is all a

loop and that there are only so many

personality types and you can just watch

culture loop and loop and loop and loop

and cultures build up and then they

crash down. The next one builds up and

then it crashes down. He's like it's

freakishly predictable. It goes in six

steps, the cycle does. And there is not

yet a society in the last 2500 years

that has avoided this cycle that lasts

about 100 to 150 years. So the reality

is that I'm like I don't think we get

out of this cultural momentum quickly. M

I think that the phrase tough men make

good times, good times make weak men,

weak men make hard times, hard times

make strong men, and you loop and loop

and loop and loop.

And we have been in good times for a

long time. And so I think we've I'm just

going to keep doing myself damage here.

I think we've gotten soft.

And I think because of that, we are

headed for hard times. And I think the

hard times will take care of any of the

um values and belief systems that aren't

useful in the acquisition of skills.

What do those hard times look like in

your

Oh Jesus.

So this is fun. This I'm sure will be

the last time that uh I go on a podcast.

Uh so just had Ray Deli out on my

podcast and in his book he pegged civil

war in the US at a 30% chance. That book

came out I think two months ago. he now

pegs our chances at 40%. So, we're

moving in the wrong direction. Remember,

this is the guy that spent inordinate

amounts of money researching um the

movements of these societies. And he's

just like, we as the American Empire, we

are uh in mid to late stage five and

stage six is civil war and revolution.

So, I think we're probably Look, here's

part of why I love web 3. I think web 3

is the only thing I can see on the

horizon that gives us a shot of bringing

back a thriving middle class, which is

precisely what you need to do to avoid a

bloody civil war or revolution. So,

that's part of the reason that I'm so

gung-ho about it. I try not to be

delusional, but it it gives me reason

for optimism.

But, I think we are headed in the wrong

direction. I think that we are getting

more and more divisive and I think every

single person has to say to themselves I

have to race to the middle and right now

people are racing to the extremes and

they want to dehumanize the other side

and look there are things like on the uh

personal responsibility side I'm not

angry with people that are angry with me

I'm like I need to find a way to like

meet you in the middle so that like we

can both learn from each other and we

can have love for each And ultimately

it's the friction between the two sides

and that not everybody should come over

to my side because maybe it's too um

it's too harsh and it doesn't show

enough empathy for people word like hey

I'm down to like come to that middle but

I need you to come to the middle right

and so what ends up happening like you

can look at these charts that show

whatever candidate presidential

candidate in the US is or whatever party

excuse me whatever party is closest to

the middle becomes the party that wins

the election. But as you look at the

graphs, they're just moving farther and

farther to the extremes. And so while

the one that is closest to the middle

will win, they're still both in the

extremes. So I'm just like, yo, I refuse

to take a political identity. That [ __ ]

scares me. I think people are just

putting themselves in a gnarly position.

I'm over here channeling um long walk to

freedom like as quickly as I can trying

to think just like unity, unity, unity,

getting people together like yay. Like

as polyiana as I can make it sound like

we just have to recognize that there are

two predominant

personality types. Those that are more

on the personal responsibility side and

those that are more on the empathy side

and that we need both and we have to

value each other. And I remember, so

I've been in business relationships in

the past, not to dox anybody, but where

I had partners that they just would butt

heads and make fun of each other all the

time and just like the other person's a

dumbass. And I was like, what are you

talking about? Like you're both

extraordinary. And so I kept trying to

get them to see it is the friction

between you that makes this magical. And

so stop trying to convince the other

person. Try to meet in the middle with

respect. try to understand where the

other person's coming from, value their

opinion. So my wife and I are we're

alike in a lot of ways, but in sort of a

fundamental disposition, we're very

different. And so we talk about that all

the time. I value that you see this

differently than me. And hopefully you

value that I see this differently than

you. And let's use that friction to

navigate a more intelligent path

forward.

So yeah, uh to go back to your initial

question, I worry that we are headed

towards either a civil war or a war with

China or both. And that if China's

smart, they're watching us going, "Yep,

they're maximally divided." That man,

we're going in a real dark place. I've

never talked about this stuff out loud

uh on camera. And uh I think that the

war in Russia is going to create a food

shortage. watch the All-In podcast

because these are just crib notes.

I've been watching

and so as they were talking about in the

recent episode basically that the food

shortage will be backs stopped by China.

China will exchange that for military

bases etc. We're going to continue to

fight in America over dumb [ __ ] that

hardcore people should not be fighting

over that we should be resilient and

coming together and you know loving uh

our differences and all of that stuff

and we won't be. So we'll be pulling in

opposite directions. China will be

getting stronger in the world stage and

in our moment of maximal weakness, they

make a move for Taiwan and we have a

choice to make where we either back down

and then we effectively forfeit our um

leadership status in the world which

will almost certainly mark the end of

the dollar as the the global reserve

currency which will be devastating. Um

or we fight and now we're in a hot war

with China. either of those options

suck. So, how do we find a diplomatic

solution? That is my obsession. And that

brings me back to web three with just

polyiana uh ideas abounding. But I I am

optimistic through all of that. You

asked me what the bad thing look like.

My hope is that we avoid it. But that is

the thing that I worry about. That's my

disaster scenario.

you're someone that's thought that

through and I'm not surprised that

you've thought that through in

tremendous detail and it's something

that's been you know another thing

that's been front of mind for you. So

knowing

with my presumption that I know the kind

of guy you are, I imagine you've also

thought about the role you can play in

stopping that scenario playing out.

Especially because you're a guy with

great resource, with great intellect,

with great intelligence, with a great

with a great skill set, with a great

platform to tell stories, one that

you're building. the last conversation

we had some four years ago, you talked

to me about this idea of bu building

almost a a more modern version of Disney

with your with your content studios and

storytelling. So, what is the role that

Tom thinks he can play in

Yeah, man. Uh my hope is I can

contribute. I certainly don't think that

um I don't have the intelligence or the

temperament to be a world leader. So, I

will just tell you right now that that

is entirely off the table for me. I have

zero interest. Um, I don't think I'd be

good at it either. So, let me be very

clear. This is not me thinking, well,

I'd be amazing, but I just don't want to

do it. I would be terrible. Uh, so yeah,

I'm definitely not going to contribute

in that way. So, my way to give you one

glimmer, I wrote a comic book with Steve

Aoki called Neon Future, which is

entirely about Nelson Mandela's Third

Way. And it plays out in a fictional way

between people that have augmented their

body with technology and people that

haven't. But it was me in a comic book

exploring those ideas that trying to

point out. So you have this guy Kevi uh

who is representing the third way. He

has every reason to be angry, to strike

back, to um kill, and yet his only

thought is of sacrifice and bringing

people together. And but he's also tough

and he's a badass and he's not a

pushover. And um that whole idea of the

meek shall inherit the earth and meek

being defined as the most dangerous

person on earth who keeps their sword

sheathed. Um you hear Bruce Lee talk

about this a lot. Sunzu, you know, the

whole thing is be so dominant that

nobody wants to fight you. So, and in

that you can actually choose peace

instead of peace sort of being just

because you're too weak to fight. Um, so

my hope is through story I can tell

ideas that make people value differences

that make them want to meet in the

middle, that make them want to love and

be loved. Um, and to of course adopt

personal responsibility with a plum. uh

and recognize that they can get better

and that nobody can stop them and that

the world desperately wants for them to

come alive and to acquire skills that

matter to them and build things that

matter to them and unify and create

incredible things

as a percentage. What do you think the

chances are that that future of the US,

the global sort of Western power getting

into a conflict or getting into a

scenario that is potentially apocalyptic

with a Russia or a China? The exact

scenario you described,

do you think that's more likely to

happen than not?

I think it's less likely to happen as of

today. I am too ignorant on the subject

to give you anything other than to

parrot

people who are far more educated on the

topic than I. So, I want to be very

clear. I know my lane. Yeah.

And so I have formulated a hypothesis

based on other people's research. I have

not done the research myself. I would

never want to be on national television

asked about foreign policy. Like I would

just be the the worst person in the

world. But Ray Dio's assessment of the

situation is so astonishingly well

researched and he's been in the thick of

it for decades. He spent hundreds of

millions of dollars just on research of

global trends and movements. And so when

he says that he pegs US civil war at

about 40% and uh uh US China conflict at

about 40%, I just trust it. So, but that

that is literally me blindly paring.

Quick one. We bring in eight people a

month to watch these conversations live

here in the studio when we're here in

the UK and when we're in LA. If you want

to be one of those people, all you've

got to do is hit subscribe. A light a

more light-hearted topic. You said

earlier about Lisa and um one of the

things you said is that you

fundamentally have differences at a

fundamental level, right? Um me and my

partner have fundamental differences and

as I said earlier with your um the

content you put you put out together

about relationships and love have been

really profound and important to my

relationship with my girlfriend. And

that's why we frequently send each other

the clips. I've had my some of my best

friends in fact send me the clips to

because you make sense of things

together from both perspectives, the

male perspective and the female

perspective in a way that's quite

liberating as someone that's going

through those things.

Um, central to having differences, which

me and my girlfriend discovered we had

is communication. Something that I think

you listed as like number one or two on

your list of nine things to sustain a

17-year marriage in the

the whiteboard list that you and Lisa

held up that time. And you you said

obsessively communicate. That's what you

said.

Um

what how does one of the things that I I

definitely struggled with and I want

your advice on is h what are the

principles of that healthy communication

that ego-free communication that you and

Lisa have adopted?

Never lie.

Okay. Which would make your life in the

moment temporarily easier. I can't tell

you the number of arguments that we'll

be in and she'll give me an out where

she's restating my thesis a little bit

wrong but it would end the argument and

all I have to do is say thank you so

much that means so much to me that you

understand that and I'm like that's not

quite it and I know that when I restate

what it really is it's another hour or

two of arguing but you got to do it

because then you can actually get to

this is where I am at help me understand

where you're at and then let's find the

way forward. But if you never here here

is the the big problem. Most people do

not take the time to articulate to

themselves what's bothering them. So my

whole thing and and this drives my wife

up a wall when we're in an argument. She

likes it the rest of the time, but say

in a single sentence what's bothering

you. Most people can't do it. And I'll

stop her. You're waffling. Stop. say it

in a single sentence because you don't

understand it well enough and therefore

we can't get to it. And so she holds me

accountable to the same thing. If I'm

all over the place, then she's like,

"Hey, single sentence. Give it to me so

I can actually understand where you're

at." Most people they can't. They can't

get to a single sentence or they don't

want to get to a single sentence. They

want to like, but it's all of these

crazy things. It's like it's impossible

to deal with. So give me a single

sentence summation of what your problem

is. No commas, no parentheticals, no

run-ons, a single sentence. I'm feeling

insecure because you uh didn't pay

attention to me when I asked you if you

wanted to go on a date this weekend.

Word. Now, I know right where you're at.

But if you don't want to acknowledge

that that made you feel insecure, now

we're arguing about the tea, as my wife

and I call it. The biggest argument my

wife and I ever got in ever, was over a

cup of tea. We were screaming. We were

on our way to a wonderful vacation. I

actually turned the car around and was

like, "We're not even going. We're going

home right now." And literally when I

turned around, I was like, "This is over

a cup of tea." I'm like, "There is no

way that we are arguing about a cup of

tea." To the point where I am turning

around and we're not going on the

vacation that we've taken in whatever at

that point it had been like 18 months.

So I'm like, "What's this really about?"

And so then we got to the real issue and

I realized, oh my god, in communication

you have to admit your flaws, your

insecurities. Like you need to

immediately go, okay, I'm angry and I

know that when I'm angry, it's because

I'm insecure. What am I insecure about?

Oh, I'm insecure about this. Oh my god.

And then you just own it. Here's what's

really going on for me. And now you can

process through and get to where you

really want to be. But most people

assume they're angry because the other

person is wrong. And once you assume

you're angry because the other person is

wrong, you're never going to get to the

real issue. And so Lisa and I are very

good about okay, what's really bothering

you? And then you and of course when

you're in it, it just really does feel

like they're just wrong. And so I'm I'm

mad because they're wrong. But uh I have

a just belief system that you end up

getting triggered because you're

insecure. And so we have to figure out

what was the insecurity that got

triggered so we can address that and

figure out the path forward.

So interesting. I I was thinking of so

many times where I waffled for the first

hour of a conversation argument with my

girlfriend and then an hour and 30 in

I'm able to crystallize it as something

that I I remember was in Peru with her

maybe a month ago and we're arguing

about I don't even know what but an hour

and a half in I crystallized it to a

single thing which reflected an

insecurity I had from my childhood and

then one it's so funny because when I

said that to her I go you know what it

is when I grew up my mom and dad and I

explained it to her the argument

completely done.

Yep. It was like she finally understood.

And yeah, there's something about

dropping your guard in such a way and

kind of holding up the mirror to

yourself that pacifies and shows you've

arrived at a place of honesty and not

seeking victory.

Word. That's so you gave me the chills.

That's spot on.

One of the things that Lewis House here,

a new good friend of yours and mine, he

said when he was um talking to me about

relationships is that he met his new

part partner Martha and he said to us

straight up, you won't be my first

priority and he listed the things that

would be his priority. So he said my

mission, my vision, whatever else it

was. And then the third thing was like

our relationship. Now, when I looked at

that whiteboard that you did with Lisa,

number seven, I believe, no, number

nine, I believe, was this marriage is

our first priority. It says, yeah, on

the nine lessons we learned over 17

years of marriage. The number one, the

the number nine thing on that list was

make your marriage your highest

priority. And that sits in conflict with

what Lewis said to me. So, I'm like,

he's telling the truth. Is it both? Is

it? Well, so it it will be a question of

results. So, Lewis, you know, I love

you, brother. Uh, so I will just say

this, that he was honest with her is

amazing. And that's going to buy them

several years of like, he told me, I

understand, but I believe relationships

require too many sacrifices for them not

to be the thing that you reinforce as

your highest priority. And if it isn't

giving you more than anything else gives

you, then it will always lose out. And

so ultimately, they will either be

living parallel lives. Anybody that

chooses this, you'll end up living

parallel lives where you each have

something that's more important like

kids, which is one of the reasons that

Lisa and I didn't have kids because we

were both honest like the kid would be

our first priority, which means that

each of us would fall into second place.

And did we want to do that? And so that

was part of why we didn't have kids. And

I think that's right. I think that if

you're going to raise kids, yo, they

need to be your first priority. Um, but

I don't have kids, so whatever. There

are probably people that have way better

advice than me on children. But anyway,

that was part of why we didn't have

kids.

And

a relationship is massive compromise.

Massive.

That's so interesting because he said

the opposite.

Oh, no. No.

He said, "Don't compromise anything."

It won't. It won't. Anybody who takes

that I want to make this about Louis so

dearly.

No, I know. just different perspectives,

right?

Yeah. I I will say that uh

I've got a 20-year marriage uh to back

up my my thesis here. Um and if

a relationship is compromised because

you have two people that view the world

in even slightly different ways that

want slightly different things. And so I

mean Lewis has made it clear that there

are two things that are more important.

So there's going to be constant

collision and friction there. Um I think

we have an innate desire as a human

being to be somebody's number one

priority. And I have found in my own

life that there is nothing more

extraordinary, nothing more uplifting,

no high higher than being somebody's

number one that is your number one and

you love and respect each other and you

have a thriving sexual relationship and

it it is it is the most profoundly

joyful thing I've ever experienced in my

life. It's stabilizing. So, the people

that have the strongest home life take

the biggest risks. I remember when I

heard that, I was like, "Whoa, that

really makes sense to me." Because I

will say what I say to myself all the

time is, "Hey, I'm building this thing.

I'm really putting myself out on a limb

trying to build this company. If it all

goes to nothing and the whole world

thinks I'm a [ __ ] at least I have my

wife." And I'm just like, "Oh, yeah.

Word." Like, I will have my wife. Like

no matter what other people think, if I

continue to honor her in the way that I

honor her now, I will have my wife. And

so the only thing I fear, I don't fear

going broke. I don't fear losing my

business. I fear losing my wife because

the outsized return that I've gotten out

of this marriage compared to what money

has brought me or um whatever micro fame

that I have, like it it's awesome. Money

is awesome. The micro fame is awesome,

but it's nothing compared to my wife.

Nothing. Nothing. So, I mean, it's just,

oh my god, it's incredible, man. It's

incredible. And so, that to get that

requires sacrifice. It requires

attention. It requires making it your

first priority because otherwise there's

going to be a moment where one person

needs that. And they realize that

they're giving that up, right? And the

thing is though, from anybody's

perspective, if you'd asked me at the

like when we were first dating, I would

have said the same thing. There's no way

we just got together. You know what I

mean? So, you're not going to be my

number one priority. So for me there was

a line in the sand when I decided to

propose. That was a very difficult thing

for me. I really thought about it man. I

debated it. Is she really the one? And

finally I was like well I'm either never

getting married or I'm marrying this

woman cuz I have never felt like this.

Like she feels worth the sacrifices all

that. And once I proposed there I never

once thought about it again. There was

no cold feet. There was never like oh

should I shouldn't I? Once I made that

decision it was everything. So my advice

to anybody in that situation is there

should be a line where you say, "And now

because of what I want this relationship

to become, I'm going to make it my

number one." Now look, I've built

extraordinary businesses even with my

wife being my number one priority. And

she isn't the thing that I allocate the

most time to. And that's important to

understand. But she's my number one

priority. So if ever she came to me and

said, "Hey, I really need you right now,

but there was something really important

going on in the business." I'd be like,

"Word." totally unconlicted. Awesome.

What do you need? I'm here. Which has

happened many times. So on that, it's

actually nice to Jaco Willing's point of

discipline equals freedom. Um, knowing

that she's my number one, that I don't

need to be conflicted. If ever those two

any two things collide, it's always

Lisa. There's like a piece in that.

Is there anything you wouldn't

compromise? So, I once told Lisa, I

said, "Look, I'll give up virtually

anything for you, but don't ever ask me

to give up my ambition because I don't

know who I am without it. And I don't

know that I want to. And look, I'm very

thoughtful about in my back pocket, I

keep Buddhist style detachment

so that if ever I got overwhelmed, it

wasn't fun anymore, whatever, I would

just pull out the detachment. And I know

how to do that. And I know how to not um

strive. I know how to loosen my bonds to

desire and wanting, which is, by the

way, something very wise for everybody

to get those tools in place, especially

if you're a stver. But I love it. I love

the pursuit. I don't need the wins. The

pursuit makes me feel alive. And

business is the only game I found that

you can play until you die. And so,

there's something really awesome about

striving to be the best. Even though I

don't know, I've in all of my years in

in 46 years, you were very kind to

lowball my age earlier. Uh, in 46 years,

I have never found myself to be the best

at anything. And yet, the pursuit of

being the best has been one of the most

thrilling rides of my life.

It comes with the cost, right, which is

for you have been the most severe cost

that you I've heard you name is living

with that anxiety, that feeling of

anxiety. Was there a place that you went

to? Because for me when I went to when I

go to barley my girlfriend lives there

at the moment. When I go there and I'm

out of the business striving ambition da

da da social media all the time mindset

there is a different level of peace

within me. So sometimes my brain goes

well Steve if you know that there's

another place you could live without

feelings of anxiety or whatever why

don't you just go live there and strive

in a smaller way outside of social media

and huge public scrutiny.

Yeah.

I'm presuming there's a place where you

felt [ __ ] there's no anxiety when I'm in

this zone.

Yeah. And I think the right answer is I

ask myself a slightly different

variation of that same question. And it

goes like this. Do I still want to

strive enough to make it worth not going

and doing that peaceful stress-free

life? Which for me would be writing?

Just write full-time. I have enough

money. I never need to work again ever.

Not a single day in my life. So every

day that I choose to go to battle, I'm

choosing to go to battle. And so the

second that the answer is no. I actually

it isn't worth it anymore. Then I would

go do that and I would just write. And

knowing that I have that in my back

pocket is

extremely

liberating. So I know at any time I can

stop. I can detach. I can not continue

to pursue this. And that has allowed me,

it's like this magic trick that allows

me to carry a lot more weight, to deal

with a lot more stress because I know

every day is a choice. And so that

allows me to have fun. It allows me to

remain playful. It It is like when I

think about how much stress I've taken

on in my life with business. I wouldn't

have been able to do it if I couldn't

imagine a life that would be just as

awesome. And so there's a parallel life

where I'm a writer and I chill and spend

time with my wife and you know whatever,

learn languages and just [ __ ] travel

around, whatever. Like that'd be

awesome. I would love that. So, um, I

just love this one a little bit more.

But if I if this diminished in its joy,

I've got this other thing that would be

so dope. So, yeah, I don't have any sort