if there's anything to know it is that

my world has burned a few times and that

I have risen every time both of us thank

God for B number

International phenomenon has led

marketing and branding at some of the

biggest companies in the world who have

you worked for Apple Netflix Pepsi Spike

Lee Eve was walking by with a script

under his arm and I took a red pen to it

I was a receptionist I really did think

I was getting fired that day but

intuition and creativity and following

your gut made me be successful

oftentimes we're in these situations

that aren't serving us and we're

thinking about how the other person is

going to feel you are going to be

unsatisfied with your life that is the

scariest thing be selfish in your life

in your career I didn't want anything to

stop me but I was about five months

pregnant when very quickly things

descended into health I had a condition

for the pregnancy is like attacking you

and the doctor says to my husband Peter

you save her or you save the baby which

one is it she didn't survive

it was the beginning of the big

fractures in our relationship we were no

longer a team a few years later he gets

diagnosed with cancer after you've

separated we had to make a choice to

have the conversations which were about

forgiveness anger and misunderstanding

really did not matter we're going to be

together

to the last heartbeat

before this episode starts I have a

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enjoy this episode

[Music]

yes you've overcome so much you referred

to yourself often as a phoenix yes how

do you describe yourself as that so take

me back because there's a certain

there's a certain distinctive Brilliance

and

character to you that

I know isn't ax I know isn't

common

and that that uniqueness is what makes

you brilliant so take me right back to

the beginning what do I need to know

about you to understand the person sat

in front of me going right back to the

start oh gosh well as a phoenix

there isn't just one Rising

you know for me so if there's anything

to know it is that my world has burned a

few times

and that I have risen every time now I

wouldn't say that like I Rise right away

it's not that kind of Miracle it's the

dusting off it's the letting the

feathers grow back it is the can I fly

again let me try oh this really hurts

let me sit down try one more time and

then I'm off

you know so that means that it's

everything from

being you know five years old and living

in Ghana and my father being in politics

and the government being overthrown in

political uh political coup uh and

having to uproot ourselves out of Ghana

I mean that my whole world burned at

that point or it is when I was 12 and we

had lived in numerous places in Africa

and then moved to Colorado Springs

Colorado and again the world shifted and

burned and I'd have to recreate myself

those first 12 years

when you look back on the most

significant fingerprints they left on

you and your character what are those

hmm

um

probably my ability to

survive like get to know people quickly

understand who is a friend and who's a

foe quickly like being able to read

people

I would say almost immediately I don't

need a lot of proof you know I can tell

on like the first question

whether or not you have good intentions

for me so I've got intentions fee yes

okay good

your desire to

um be able to relate to the person in

front of you is that also linked to

because it was clear when I was reading

about your story that you had a very

early love of culture yeah and just like

what's going on in the world yeah like

you know yeah but that was survival it

wasn't that wasn't um you know this

battle of like nature versus nurture I

think I have some of it naturally my

curiosity about people and the things

that surround me in pop culture

um

but it was certainly nurture it nurtured

you know this idea of like well I have

to understand everything that's

happening in this Society so I can talk

to you so I can seem normal to you you

know so that meant that like okay I have

to understand American football

inside and out Friday Night Lights were

a big deal in Colorado so I need to

understand what's happening in the

fields I don't annoy people with

cheering at the wrong time or music

understanding what was happening at the

time and

being able to sing along to lyrics or

argue with somebody in the hallway about

my favorite pop star you know or fashion

make sure that the crease on my jeans

was perfect or the way I folded it over

and doubled it up was right you know all

of those things are nurtured and so

it created a

lifelong student of Pop Culture so it

means that every time that something new

would happen oh I'd be the first on it

I'd be the one who'd be like oh let me

figure out what that is I need to

understand all of it because should I be

in a situation

where I'm in front of somebody who

really likes that thing I want to be

able to talk to them I want to be able

for them to understand that I understand

what they're talking about I'm not so

strange

and that that explains in large part why

you pursued creativity and marketing or

at least while you ended up there but do

you think it's hard to be yourself when

you're trying to survive

hmm

yeah I think so were you being yourself

as you reflect on that chapter of your

life the pre-18

left of my own devices I probably

wouldn't have I probably would have

turned out

to be too much of a people pleaser but

thankfully I had a mother

who was well both my parents but my

mother in particular was very focused on

making sure that

all of us girls I have three younger

sisters understood our worth

and the way that we contribute you know

so in the process so imagine I'm 12. and

I'm here trying to understand all the

American things

and I come home and I finally broken

through the inner circle of the cool

girls

and they've now said they want to come

over to my house and here I am in front

of my mother my very ghanian very proud

mother and I'm saying I'm gonna need you

to buy some pizza get some Fanta up in

here okay like french fries I don't know

what it is get all the American foods

chicken nuggets the things they like

and she's like absolutely not

they're going to eat Fufu

they're gonna have some pepper soup

they're gonna eat with their hands

because that's what we do in this house

and I'm sitting there like oh you've got

to be kidding my whole like are you like

you want to destroy me like I'm just

learning how to get along with these

people

you know and the lesson there and by the

way she didn't she wasn't like cryptic

about it she was very direct very

straightforward and she was like when

you go to their house

you do the things they want to do when

they come to your house

they do the things you want to do she

was did not mince words and at 12 she

said that maybe I couldn't have

articulated it then but I certainly

understand it very clearly now which is

that I had to understand my own worth

like what am I bringing to the table not

just about what they have and what

they're trying to do and they're trying

to communicate but what is it that I'm

bringing so that the pride I have in my

own culture in my own skin in my own

uniqueness is as important as the things

that they like

regardless of apparent consequence oh

yeah yeah just throughout the whether

it's the corporate world or our

professional lives there's always an

apparent consequence which holds us back

oh absolutely do you think being the

oldest of four four sisters right yeah

do you think being the oldest of Four

Sisters shaped your personality

absolutely yes I'm the boss

no question about it but also that was

how our household ran you know it's like

my my dad made no small uh no small

beans of saying like you know reminding

me constantly that you're the oldest you

have to set the tone you you lead the

example you know your sisters will

follow you he says that today I think he

said that to me last week yeah

oh my God

dad he is the type of person who absorbs

information and holds it and then can

spit it back at you he doesn't need a

lot of time to understand Concepts or

things I mean he's a self-taught

musician he didn't go to high school he

didn't go to middle school or high

school but has two phds and my dad um

has very very high standards

so that is the person that I grew up

with what impression did he give you

about what success was and looked like

and that and also in doing so what

failure was

success meant Financial Independence

and financial success yeah you need to

make a certain amount of money in order

to

have the nice things

you know the nice house a nice car the

vacations all the things

um success also meant big titles

you know so early on in my career

um

I remember wanting to take a job that

had a lesser title than the one I was

leaving

and my dad hated that

you know he was just like

but you're taking steps backwards and my

thought was like well it's not really

because the responsibilities are

different and better and they're going

to get me closer to the place I want to

go you don't understand that but I

understand that but to him that was

failure and so that certainly

changed the way that I think about

you know my own upward Mobility that for

some time I did Chase titles

you know but the truth of matter is that

a title isn't going to give you power

you know the title doesn't actually give

you anything

and it's like what I've learned about

leadership is that you have to convince

the people who are around you that you

are right that you have a good idea and

that they should input into that thing

and then they will follow you you think

just because you have a chief title that

somebody is going to follow you or not

think you're stupid

there are plenty of people out there who

have you know that title and teams who

don't respect them

and so for me I think those early

lessons were

they had their good things and they're

bad things you know and the good things

were that me understanding that um

my dad's understanding of what success

looked like in terms of titles was not

necessarily the only way what does give

you power then so if the title doesn't

give you power what does give you

influence influence

yeah being well there's a couple of

things

complicated question it's like

Talent alone doesn't do it

again met many talented people who

couldn't lead anybody

you know and you have many leaders who

have no Talent

so it's like a it's a interesting

combination of those two things like you

have to be able to be on the ground and

do the work

you also have to convince other people

so that's where the influence comes in

that the idea that you have or the way

that you're saying we should go is the

right thing

and then get them to follow you and then

you must execute

you actually have to be right yeah you

know and then if you do that enough

times oh then it becomes unquestionable

you know that's when the reputation

precedes you that's when you know at

least for me it's like I get into a new

job and people expect a certain thing

it's like oh I've seen you do that over

there or I had a friend who worked for

you at this place and they said you did

yeah your first sort of real significant

career move seemed to be this encounter

with Spike Lee's agency yeah so for

people that don't know who is Spike Lee

okay and how did that happen

Spike Lee is blackity blackity black

first of all

uh no but he he is a

um film director really and his core

filmmaker let's call it that because he

certainly produces and does other things

and writes

um but he has a an advertising agency in

New York uh when I was there was on

Madison Avenue so Madison Avenue is like

the place for advertising in the world

right it's um the place where the show

Mad Men was made from so ddb is one of

the biggest agencies and Spike had a JV

with them what brought you to New York

in the first place

um

curiosity I was I graduated from

Wesleyan University which was in

Middletown Connecticut and um it was

just time to apply to med school and I

really didn't want to and New York was

right there it was like an hour and a

half from school and I really didn't

have a plan yeah I just I just went

trying to escape what I thought was my

destiny

and like many people say I think

sometimes in this business I kind of

fell into this but I think my destiny

actually came to find me that's what it

was I opened up

and allowed for something greater that I

didn't even know was possible to find me

instead

so many people are in in that chapter of

their life where they're trying to find

their Destiny or trying to help trying

to

figure out a way to let their Destiny

find them yeah

when you look back and connect the dots

as to how your career came to be and you

think about that first moment where you

you know you went to New York and then

you were on Madison Avenue you're

working for Spike Lee and you find you

find your destiny where it finds you if

you're if your daughter

um comes to you and says mum what advice

have you got for me on finding my

destiny like what have I got to do to

actively oh

have you ever heard that statement like

let go and let God have you heard that

before no it's a very Christian thing I

feel like in the like black church

there's a lot of that let go I'm like

God you know as if God is just gonna

just sprinkle magic dust over you you

know and I'm like no I don't I don't

necessarily believe that just as a plain

statement

I think the letting go is an action

you know it's not surrender it's like

you just lay down and it's gonna find

you you're not gonna find your destiny

sitting on the couch you know the

letting go for me is like the letting go

of preconceived ideas about what it is

that

you are going to do

letting go of

sometimes you're like trying to do

something and keep hitting a wall

you're just like oh if I just hit it one

more time it's gonna break

sometimes it's like you know that's a

cement wall right if you just move five

feet to the right

is actually plaster

and you're gonna go right through it

you know it's like sometimes it's the

letting go of this thought that you had

which is like oh I'm going to do this

thing right here

is the magic and I'll tell you this look

it didn't just happen at that stage in

my life it's happening right now

where you know I'm like okay well I

think I am done with my corporate CMO

work

I believe I'm finished

so I'm going to

let go of it I'm not going to be

actively looking for the next CMO job

I want whatever is coming for me

I'm gonna allow space for it now doesn't

mean I'm just sitting around

I'm also you know trying to polish other

skills I'm trying to

create you know because perhaps the next

thing that's coming is somewhere more in

that space I can feel it like in my

spirit and that

understanding of like your intuition and

if you're listening to it it's like a

magnet it's gonna just draw you closer

to the thing that you're supposed to do

and it has happened every single time

like every time without fail like every

job every move I've made hasn't been

because somebody said oh you know what

this makes logical sense one plus one

equals two

sometimes I'm just like but it's not

math though you know it's physics

because it's not it's not the addition

it's a subtraction I'm just going to say

here

and I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna go

talk to this person and I'm gonna talk

to that person I'm gonna sit back down

again and I'm going to write this thing

out and then

like magic because I don't know how else

to describe it it's like the destiny

appears I'm telling you every time it

has happened every single time even when

people were like oh that is never gonna

happen like you're wasting your time I

don't know why you'd go over there and

do that I'm like

um I don't know something something

inside I'm telling you telling me that

this is the way to go I'm gonna go over

there

every time it's worked

but but do you believe so there's a lot

there for me

there's a lot that I'm interested in

there do you believe because I want to

be clear are you because some people

hear that and go love that everything

happens for a reason I'm gonna chill and

my fate is pre-written and it's coming

for me

um both said all I got to do is wait and

it's gonna because everything happens to

a reason it's pre-written so I just got

it

no no no no

this is gonna start banging on the table

no no no if I just chill here no no

don't chill in here okay

I think you're probably talking about

energy I'm not one of those chilling

here type people anyway you know

um and I don't believe things are

pre-written actually like for me the

idea of Destiny isn't that something is

already predetermined for you I think

you create your destiny also you know

meaning that like look there was a movie

in the in the late 90s called sliding

doors star Gwyneth Paltrow

um the concept is basically like

you know if you're running for the train

and you catch it you know you jump

inside

you have one destiny if the door is

close you still stand on platform then

you have to catch the next train it

takes you to a different Destiny that's

the concept right it is what I also

believe which is that like my destiny is

not pre-written but the movements that I

make are what lead me to the thing

that's actually for me you know and so

it's a constant evolution

so I don't believe that you have to sit

and wait for it I think your constant

movement your constant Discovery is

actually what then brings the destiny to

you so this isn't about predetermined

anything or just like let me just chill

out on like I said you can't sit on the

couch and expect your destiny to come

for you so it's not reading my horoscope

no disrespect to the tarot card readers

constantly creating our destiny you know

that this life that we're living these

experiences that people were meeting

people you're in relationships with

it happens because there's a certain

action that you take that leads you to

that thing now it's your choice whether

or not you take it and then that's when

the whole intuition thing comes up for

me right because I'm like now you may

have caused a lot of action and then you

have a couple of choices in front of you

where are you going

which one is calling you

and then you know what people like to do

they want to write Pro and column lists

they want to ask people for advice do

you think I should do this or should I

do that both of these look good

why are you asking other people they

don't know

they're not they're not living your life

they don't have the the whole Destiny

they have their own thing

why are you asking them

and if you got quiet for a second and

heard your intuition

but then again sometimes people scared

right because it's telling you do

something that you probably don't want

to do you're a little scared of it

and then you're going to choose the

wrong thing

it's hard to hear your intuition when

George

is

very loudly telling you yes George being

a father yes and everyone can relate

there's there's always an external voice

which is very loud whether it's social

expectation or Instagram or George yeah

saying that this is the right thing to

do so like how do you tune into your

intuition and out of George

it's like any muscle

you know it's like look we all have

biceps

but some people's biceps are enormous

thank you

that was good that was that was super

smooth that was really nice

um but it is like any muscle you know

you gotta work it

you've got to listen to it you have to

make it Brave to talk to you you know I

I kind of feel like um it's like that

friend

now this is not about multiple

personalities but you know it's like

that friend who's talking to you inside

your head you know and like if you keep

dissing it and keep being like shut up

no that's a bad idea if you keep doing

that that voice can get quieter and

quieter what makes you think is gonna

ever be like listen Bose I told you no

look my intuition is so loud oh there's

no way oh I meet people and we'll be

like that person not for me

and no

by the way somebody else will be like oh

that is a very powerful person you know

they'll introduce you to this other

person or oh they're so smart they've

done this and that and that and that

not for me nah so I'm not I'm not even

going to engage

like my intuition is that strong I trust

it a hundred percent because you've had

to train it right yes yes I've had to

I've had to allow it to lead me is that

because of what you said earlier about

the survival and that pattern

recognition is developed now where you

can kind of you see a couple of cues

your intuition goes oh we met this

person a couple of times yes yes that's

part of it for sure

if I've had

to listen to my intuition

allow it to lead me even when other

people were like no whether it was my

dad or a friend or a mentor a boss

you know when they've been like um no

that's not the thing you want to do you

should do this this is this would be

more successful for you and then my

intuition was like actually I don't

think so I think you need to go this way

it is so hard I'm not pretending as if

like this is the easy thing where it's

like I'll just listen to your intuition

be fine

thing is dumb hard

you know it's like look because

sometimes the logic

makes a lot more sense yeah than your

intuition

and so I'm not saying that it's easy but

it is the only choice if you want to be

successful and successful to me these

days means that I am happy and at peace

and enjoying the thing I'm doing it's no

longer about the title or the house or

the thing like do I have freedom

oh man like and freedom isn't just like

I can do whatever the hell I want

freedom is that like I can be working on

a campaign and not sleep for three days

because I'm so excited about it

that's the kind of Freedom I'm talking

about like really enjoying the things

that I'm doing

and if I am listening to my intuition

it's going to lead me to those

opportunities that allow me to have that

kind of experience with people or with

jobs or whoever

is such an important question I don't

think people ask themselves there which

is what is your definition of success

and I know it's kind of kind of like a

fluffy question or whatever else but

once you have that as your North Star it

completely changes your your like

direction of travel right so like that

central question I think and everyone

listening to this now like like what is

your what is your truly your definition

of success because if you don't if

you're not clear on it someone else is

going to write that definition for you

yes and it might be George you know what

I mean yes or or anybody yeah or someone

else or Instagram might write it for you

or your partner and you're gonna you're

gonna go down that path and find

yourself lost oh my and it will just be

a feeling inside your chest that says

well we made a wrong turning every time

you know sometimes that shows up in the

Sunday scaries oh my God yeah it shows

up there we're having a conversation

about this yesterday on Sunday we're

like yeah isn't it strange that it's

Monday tomorrow and none of us have it's

not crossed any of our minds exactly or

freaked out about it yeah God it's like

man when I when I started recognizing

that Sunday scaries were tied to my

wrong turns

guess who jumped into the driver's seat

real quick me

you know it's like look and again we're

not saying we're not making lighter than

me like oh this is so easy just change

direction you know but it's so helpful

when you recognize it and then you're

like oh okay now I can do something

about this

it was like right isn't that the first

step of like any problem solving is to

recognize the problem

do you think life like Sunday scaries is

a signal

and it's a signal and it's a very

important signal and it's screaming at

you

so loud it's so loud and the thing is

that think about Sunday scaries in

relationship to anything in your life

um when you are in a relationship let's

say romantic and you have to go hang out

with that person

and you're not feeling so cute about it

might be time for you to reevaluate

this relationship is good for you you

know it's like you should be feeling the

like oh I really want to go do this

thing with this person you know and for

me it's not even about length of time

because you know marriage is not

something where it's like people tell

you all the time it's so hard and it's

like you know you'll fall out of love

with this person and then fall back in

love with them and it's like I'm not

talking about like the fickleness of

your everyday feelings I'm talking about

like the consistency of a mood that you

are in when you are in the presence of

that person

like do you feel great do you have

ickiness when you're with them

like that that's a that's a Sunday scary

that you need to watch out for so it's

not just about like am I gonna wake up

and go to work tomorrow at a job I hate

I apply that to everything in my life

and that's the kind of Freedom that I

want in my life that like I don't engage

with people that I feel the ickiness

with

there's so many throughout your

experience of arriving in New York and

then working with Spike Lee and um

there's so many really interesting

moments that sort of categorize

and

provide clues as to how you got here

today one of those early moments was

when you're in New York and Spike Lee

puts the the script on your desk yes

because that is for me that is for me a

really clear it's almost like a like a

fork in the road you could have done one

thing or another thing and the choice

you made in that seems to be quite

pivotal can you tell me about that yes

so

interesting it wasn't just that he put

the script on a desk he was walking by

with a script under his arm and as I

shared I'm you know I love to read and I

know that Spike writes with a very black

point of view about the African-American

experience and I was fascinated by that

and so as soon as I saw it I was like

I mean this must be something

interesting that he's either writing or

reading I don't I want to I want to be

part of it what was your job there at

the time I was the assistant actually

not even the assistant I was I was

answering the phone and I was a

receptionist okay at his agency a

temporary receptionist I didn't even

have the job yet I was only filling in

and um but it felt there was a little

bit of naivete in it you know and that

like I don't know if

15 years ago even if I saw a spike

walking past my desk I would have been

like hey what are you reading can I read

that

because I would have used all my logic

to say oh he's so important whatever

he's holding there he needs he's not

going to give it to you so why even ask

I probably would have explained it to

myself that way by the time there was a

little bit of that naivete brashness

arrogance even you know where I was just

like oh whatever he's reading I want to

read and so that's what I asked him just

said what do you have

you know and he said he said his script

for Bamboozled and I was like okay what

can I read it

and he looked at me incredulously

and he was like sure here you go have it

back to me in three days and let me know

what you think and of course he had a

smirk on his face and so did the office

everybody who overheard the conversation

and I really didn't understand what that

meant but of course in hindsight I

understood that it was such a

complicated piece of writing that he

probably didn't think I would finish it

one or have anything to add

and I took a red pen to it a literal red

pen he likes to tell the story now that

like you know he gave this receptionist

his script and I came back three days

later with markups and notes in the

margins said you know I think that this

dialogue here could

be fussed out a little bit I didn't

understand what happened between these

two characters

you know and he was just like

what you mocked up my script

and I was just like oh God I didn't I

didn't know man I thought I really did

think I was getting fired that day and

uh he went into his office slammed the

door

I sat there man I'm telling you I have

my purse with me and I was just sitting

there waiting for him to open up the

office so that he could tell me I was

fired and meanwhile I'm thinking in the

back of my head my dad's gonna kill me

because I'm not even supposed to be in

this job I have a college degree my

receptionist at this office anyway

and then he opened the door after what

felt like 17 hours it was probably just

you know 30 minutes

and that's when I got the job he was

like you made some good notes you should

stay

how old are you

22. so you're 22 and you um take a red

pen to one of the most famous film

directors work yeah and that gets you

the job yes

what what's the lesson there oh it

changed my entire life oh that changed

my entire life I've had a few inflection

points in my life that is absolutely one

of them without that moment

I don't know and maybe at some other

point I would have learned it maybe it

would have come to me anyway

um but I'm so glad it came to me then

that

there is no one who knows more about

anything than you do it just doesn't

exist like look I'm not saying you

should go ahead and try to do like open

heart surgery

maybe don't do that you know but if you

are the patient

getting counseled by your doctor

and they say you know what I think we're

gonna have to do open heart surgery

but you feel like hey look I don't know

that you understand all the symptoms

that I'm trying to discuss with you and

that uh you seem to just get by a bunch

of these things that I've just said

I'm gonna have to go for a second

opinion that's the kind of belief I have

in myself

you know where I'm just like I'm gonna

question you even though you're the

expert and say I don't know because you

really didn't pay attention to what I

was saying so let me just go and try and

talk to somebody else that that moment

when Spike said sure go for it and I

went for it and then he said I have some

good ideas

come on like you just said he's one of

the most brilliant filmmakers of all

time

he will be in the animals of History

and he thought as a 22 year old I made

some good points on a script that is one

of his most difficult to read

you can't tell me [ __ ]

it's hard to and for anything or

anyone's one do that that conviction and

evidence right that he gave you in that

moment yeah yeah yeah but I feel like

also

I learned something as a leader from him

in that moment

that

there aren't people on my team that I

dismiss

for lack of tenure

or understanding

you know that there are so many people

who can contribute to an idea to a

campaign who can challenge your strategy

without having

more knowledge than you do

of the thing you know what I'm saying

that like there are junior people on the

team that you should ask their opinion

because they're probably going to look

at it from a different perspective than

you ever would

and they might say something that

changes the entire direction of the

thing you're doing and you should listen

to them

sometimes it's hard for those people to

speak up right yes because of that yes

but that's why again the lesson from

that moment is that like when he says

sure

as a leader why would I not say sure

to somebody or make the room for them to

be able to speak up

you know I've been I've been known in my

teams to I'm like a teacher I'll call on

people

you know and not to make them feel badly

but just allow space you know see

somebody who looks like they're and

again this comes down to like some of

those lessons from when I was 12 reading

people body language seeing somebody's

itching to jump in the conversation but

they can't find a space because that

knucklehead over there talks too much

we've all been in those meetings you

know and then just being like hey did

you did you have something to say you

know did you want to contribute to this

you ever thought about this and then

sometimes people be like oh no no I no

they'll get shy you know where like

they'll I can start to see them like

panic and I'm like okay no problem but

if you do

just let me know

you know just give them a second to be

able to gather themselves or sometimes

it you know they'll be like Yes actually

I just I just wanted to say

and they'll contribute and you know

sometimes the contribution is great and

sometimes it's a bunch of crap but

you'll never know unless you ask the

counter narrative to that is do you

think I was playing around with this

idea that I think in teams people end up

having what I call like a contribution

score

and it's kind of like a credit score but

it's like the historical value of when

you speak whether it's valuable or not

yeah yeah and so like your credit when

you go for um you want to like lease a

car or you want to get a house whatever

if you've got a bad credit score you're

probably going to get shut down upon you

know upon an application yeah yeah if

you've got a bad contribution score I if

you tend to just contribute without

thinking or you're just speaking for the

sake of speaking then when you speak the

first word starts at a lower level of

appreciation that is

God

and you go to so there's the convert

this is a Converse point because it

means you do want to protect your

contribution score you don't want to

just speak for the sake of speaking Yeah

Yeah you know if you're brainstorming a

campaign and I go what about a billboard

right and you look over and you get that

was a [ __ ]

done yeah

but that's the thing is that um you know

it's it's kind of also the same way that

I look at

it failure of ideas

you know oh man that can kill a

h I can kill your creativity

faster than anything else you know it's

not it's not just your contribution

score but it's like you know it's like

if we're like we're in the meaning okay

and here you are maybe you spoke about

yourself maybe I called on you and you

said the thing and everybody in the

room's like oh my God that's actually

that's really smart yes yes we should do

that and then we do the thing and it

bombs oh man

you know this this is when again as a

leader it's like you gotta come in and

protect

the people's Spirit yeah yeah and their

confidence yeah it was like that idea of

failing fast like that's when it really

comes into play it's like oh no no

dust yourself off everybody get up we're

gonna try this again we're gonna try a

different way

thank you for contributing sit your ass

down okay who else has another idea you

know what I mean but making sure that

they're no longer a pariah also you know

but that's your job as a leader to do

that you know it's like this look we we

each have a value and a role to play in

that context right so as the person who

came up with the bad idea or the stupid

contribution

your job isn't to then dust yourself off

and try to come again you know you can

do that but that's really hard to do if

you don't have somebody on the other end

who's pulling you to do that you know

and so my job in that role is to make

sure that you come back

that is my job you know it's not just to

pick the good ideas it's to protect the

people protect the good ideas protect

the bad ideas like make sure they they

keep Rising every time something bombs

because it's going to bomb like you're

not going to get a perfect score all the

time

and it's funny because you're saying I

was thinking it was only a bad idea when

it hit the market yeah that's a good

idea up until then that's an

uncontrollable right no one can so

celebrate probably should be celebrating

the

the running the experiment itself first

is the outcome of the experience yes

that's right that's right that's right

and always you know I I

love Monday morning quarterbacking I

love it you know some people think it's

like a punishment I I really try not to

make it feel like punishment where you

review the thing that happened that went

bad you know and everybody wants to pile

on now now all of a sudden this person

who didn't say one word in the meeting

was like well I knew it was a bad idea

from the start oh I cannot stand those

type of people that look in a meeting

with me you'll understand that's a

that's a wrong thing to say if you're

gonna be the one who says well I knew it

was going to be bad for him to start

well then you should have said that [ __ ]

before we went and executed it otherwise

don't tell me now

you know so it's like the picking a part

of the thing like okay what was the

thing that went right what was the thing

that went wrong what could we have done

differently to get a different outcome

and sometimes it's nothing

the conditions were right the idea was

right it was executed right it just

didn't hit and then sometimes you're

just gonna be like ah just chalk it up

like that it sucks

you know or you do learn something or

just like it was such a great idea in

the room

but then we went outside and we were all

in love with it that we missed the huge

red flag everybody missed it nobody saw

it nobody saw that like actually wasn't

that funny we laughed in the room but it

wasn't that funny you know it's like and

that has happened to me so many times so

many times where it's like

you just fall in love with the thing and

then you go outside and nobody thinks

it's good except for the people who are

in the room with you it's like putting

on a really great outfit at home you

know you just look at yourself in the

mirror you're like oh I am I am just too

cute I'm fine I'm about to pull one a

night

you go outside and and not one person

talk to you

you see pictures later you're like I did

not look like that I know I did it I

swear to you I looked better when I saw

myself in the mirror I can't relate

so that time when you're working in New

York what you're working with Spiker is

agency

I read you took a phone call from an

ex-boyfriend at College who was

in a difficult moment in his life yeah

what did he say on the phone what can

you share you know

I think this is the

part about when you think about things

that you would do over yeah you know

the ways that you would have

reacted differently and torture yourself

about it I do that now

still

even though I've been through a lot of

therapy

even though I know that um

the outcome probably would have been the

same at a different time

you know he suffered

from a from mental illness that I

obviously couldn't diagnose

well we were in a romantic relationship

that now of course looking back with was

toxic

I didn't know

how to help him

and eventually

he decided to end his life by Suicide

and I blamed myself

for a long time to some degree I still

do

you know wishing that I had said

something different

wishing that I had known

better to ask for help

um

wishing I'd just been a better friend or

girlfriend

you know and even now

um I remember writing a post on

Instagram

when someone famous died by Suicide and

um

you know there were all of the things

that people say they're like oh you

never know what somebody's dealing with

or like but you know we're like call

this line if you know you're thinking

these thoughts and all I could like the

only way I could react to it was just

like

but the people who are around that

person

feels like the guilt you feel

the terrible burden you carry for the

rest of your life like what do those

people do

it was like what what hotline is exists

for them

you know how do you manage that feeling

it is a sort of survivor's guilt to some

degree

you know I feel the same about people

who

are survivors of a loved one's terminal

illness

I would never talk about those people

you always talk about the person who's

suffering and I'm not saying we

shouldn't I'm just saying that we have

to consider the entire circle

of people

you know and how do you

give advice

help

relieve the guilt

the sadness the grief the regret

all of those things and it is still

something that I I deal with

in terms of many different types of

grief I've had in my life

mental health and mental illness has

become increasingly

um discussed in society in the last

five ten years when I was a kid I didn't

oh yeah no nobody talked about it it was

a thing

um now it's very popular in conversation

did had he made any indications that he

was suffering and could he could he

articulate yeah that he had mental

health challenges um yes I mean he was

on medication so he knew he was he had

challenges

um

but and look I was I was clinically

depressed as well I was on medication we

were we were both on medication you know

um and the challenge with having any

mental illness is that sometimes you

know how you're diagnosed and you know

that you have to take medication for it

but

maybe we don't feel like you're ill

and he was an artist a musician and so

sometimes as a creative that gets

confused right because you're just like

oh but I need my angst

in order to create you know I pull from

this deep dark well and that's where my

Artistry comes from and he would say

stuff all the time you know he would be

impassioned about you know it's like

well none of it is worth it

you know if this if this doesn't work I

don't know what I'm gonna do

you know or like would be so dependent

on me for his own happiness you know the

things I did would set him off or not

you know so then you are tied to that

person's ups and downs even though it

has nothing to do with you right and

again like look I've had a lot of

therapy to talk about this and so I can

articulate it if it doesn't change the

way that you really feel about it you

know I can academically talk about it

and say oh well you know

he behaved this way and therefore I

behaved this way right we were like a

Tit for Tat type situation

but when you're in it

all you want to do

is to protect that person

you know all I want to do was keep Ben

up that's all

by any means necessary

you know so if it meant that I had to

stay on the phone for six hours

that's what I had to do if I had to miss

my own

meetings and calls and

friends and dinners and that's what I

had to do

did he call you yes around the time yes

yes he called me well

that day he called he was having one of

his episodes you know and was accusing

me of cheating on him or you know

whatever the thing was and I was just so

exhausted it'd been a number of days of

this constant battery

um he was living in Geneva and I was in

New York and so he was you know we were

on different time zones he couldn't see

anything I was doing but was accusing me

of all kinds of things I'm just tired

and so I said I needed to go out with my

friends I'm going to go to dinner of

course you can imagine the battery of

insults you know that he hit me with and

I hung up the phone and just went

and I could hear the phone ringing when

I left my apartment

you know but I thought like he's just

gonna have to cool off and I'll get back

to him I get back

and when I did he had left me a

series of increasingly panicked

voicemails

uh and the last one was the one where he

said he was going to jump

from a bridge

and that was it

and he jumped from a bridge

where are you at with with

um because I know you said you could

kind of look at it objectively but it

doesn't change how you feel about it

yeah where are you at today I mean

you're what two decades on from that

yeah

um he was such a brilliant person

you know a brilliant creative

I

I wish I could have saved him and myself

you know meaning that

um I wish I had known

to ask for help in that situation I

didn't know what to say

I didn't know how to

I didn't know how to articulate

what he was doing or how I was reacting

to it

I thought it was my fault

you know that if I just like loved him

harder

or better whatever better meant

you know that he wouldn't have jumped

I

think about it all the time what would

have happened if I had answered the

phone when I heard it ringing when I was

leaving was that the moment he decided

you know maybe if maybe if I had picked

up the phone he wouldn't have felt

desolate and alone

I think about that all the time

all the time all the time all the time I

mean I

so much so that

I apply that and many other things that

have happened in my life

um in current situations

you know meaning that like if um

there is a situation with a friend who's

going through something or is you know

telling me about some challenge that

they're having

and I feel powerless or I feel like I

don't have the answer

I consider whether or not I am their

last call

and I consider that like okay well what

what else who else can I pull into this

to help because I I don't know what to

do

and by the way

the trauma response to that is that

sometimes it's not even like that you

and I'm saying it's like it's not like

I'm jumping to a conclusion that they're

not even anywhere near but that's where

I'm going because that's my experience

you know and so I'm always considerate

that it's like if somebody's going

through something tough or there's a

friend you know they tell you they're

checking in on your strong friends

again I don't even know what that means

but you know it's like if I have a

friend who I haven't heard from

or I know they're going through

something tough and I call them and

they're not answering or are they I call

them they sound funny to me oh I'll be

the first one to drive over there

and be like I just had to lay eyes on

you I had to see that you're all right

okay you good okay okay you just need

some ice cream all right I got you you

know

but I'm I'm I'm very conscious

of the fact that

people are delicate our lives are

delicate and even when somebody looks

like they got everything together

there might be something really

unsettled right underneath the surface

and so how can I be more conscious as a

friend

now the difference what I've learned in

20 years though is that um

although I consider like could I have

changed

the outcome of that night maybe I could

have changed the outcome of that night

but doesn't mean that he would not have

decided to end his life

and I have also grown in understanding

that it was his choice

it was his choice

it really didn't have anything to do

with me

how a person decides to live their life

or leave their life is their choice and

have to respect it

that's what has changed in 20 years

it's really interesting because you know

we spend so much of our Lives fighting

the choices that other people make yes

especially people we love

yes because you think

you think

you know better yeah for them you can

change it yeah you know you know better

for them yeah yes but that's why I think

the same thing we've been talking about

with intuition that it applies to you

too it's like you think you know better

how somebody else should live their life

and they think they know better how you

should live yours and they're going to

advise you that way that's why it's like

you know when we talk about like

listening to your Intuition or whether

or not you're going to you know March

the beat of Your Own Drum and it's like

look they're going to be people in your

life who love you desperately who want

the best for you and are going to advise

you horribly

this is not their life

they can't help you because they don't

even know where you are they've never

been there before

it might look familiar to them

but they've never been there they're not

in your shoes they don't have your

context so you can advise you yourself

that's the only person

the only one Nacho Mama

not your best friend that you've known

since you were three

not your Mentor who you admire and who

has reached the place you want to go

even they can't do it

you can't do it

they don't know

You Found Love in Peter yes at work yes

you weren't interested in him at first

no

what changed oh it changed

if I had that answer like we could solve

all of Love's riddles right like you

know what's really interesting earlier

on when you talked about let go and let

God it really struck me as a

relationship metaphor as well because we

go through life thinking I want brunette

with this size this yeah

and we we're not we're two we got our

blinkers on and we're too narrow for all

the great [ __ ] people that might come

along like you might have met your

husband or wife already but you were

just so caught up in how they were

supposed to look and how much money they

were supposed to have come on preach

no but it's true but but that is you

know part of it is that um you know when

you say let go and let God it's like yes

the letting go of these you know

preconceptions whether it's for Job or

love or friends or whatever but it's

also the action of being like okay let

me just all right let's go and see what

this is

you know and for me it's like when I met

him yeah he was not my type you know

this like white man who was a ginger for

God's sake

what the hell was I gonna do with that

yeah I was like and he was wearing this

big fat gold chain

two buttons open in his I mean God even

think about it now I'm just like oh how

embarrassing like really seriously you

know but he

um he surprised me we like basically the

story is that he said he wanted to get

to know me he won't take me to dinner

and I was like absolutely not I'm way

too fine for you okay

yes because that is what I also think

and

um I was like look if you want to get to

know me

Mr white man you're gonna read Song of

Solomon by Toni Morrison

and he was literally like I don't even

know what that he was like I no one has

ever even said that to me and I'm like

yeah exactly

go read Song of Solomon by Tony Morrison

and then we can have dinner and talk

about it why that book it was my

favorite book it is still my favorite

book and it's just so

you know it's like look Tony Morrison is

an author

does not come down to your level Tony

Morrison is up here

she's not going to mince words or like

change metaphors or not let you stare at

the uncomfortable realness of being

black

I'm gonna hit you in the face with it

and I was like oh I want to see this

very privileged white boy read this work

and then come talk to me about it

that was my trick

so he came back

very quickly by the way and I was like

oh I'm gonna call this Bluff because

first of all he didn't read it okay and

even if he did read it there's no way he

has a great understanding of that story

or that work than I do

like

African-American an English Lit major

for God's sakes from Wesleyan like and

I'm black

where he knows more

and he surprised me we went to dinner

and he had such interesting insights

and um

you know I mean like love does I was

struck by Cupid's arrow sitting there at

that dinner I swear it was like first

night

fell in love instantly

you moved quickly right oh yeah oh

that was November 9th

2000.

and by January I told him I loved him

also because he had painted me

a

uh his interpretation

of Song of Solomon

oil on campus he'd never picked up a

paintbrush before

the painting now hangs in our daughter's

room by the way

um

and he gave it to me for my birthday

and I man I was like yep he's the one I

want to marry him that's it

and my very Ghanaian father was not into

it

at all did not approve

especially when I said we're gonna move

in together

like we moved in together we'd known

each other for eight months

and we'd already decided we're gonna get

married

and at a year he proposed I said yes

and I was like We're Off to the Races

this is it

what did George have to say about it oh

I hated it hated it when did he mean in

fact oh gosh it was a terrible situation

um well my parents came to visit in like

February so

my mom knew I was very much in love my

dad was not aware and they came to visit

me just as you know coming to visit me

in New York see how I'm doing and I

orchestrated for Peter to come by for

dinner

uh and

also just to set context it wasn't like

I introduced my dad to boyfriends my dad

had never met anyone and so for him to

meet somebody was like well who is this

and what does this mean

you know but

you know he tells it now that he just

thought it was you know me finally

coming into some you know early love and

he just thought it would be you know

something he could dismiss

um but by August when I called him and

said hey I'm going to move in with my

boyfriend

and he was like absolutely not like

first of all this is shameful

okay you're not going to marry this

white person like that that's not going

to work for us you're the eldest what

are your sister is going to think you

can't live in sin

and he was on a business trip to in

China

and without telling me he flew to New

York straight away

uh and did not come to my office to talk

to me about it he went to Peters

showed up in his office

and Peter like calls me and his voice

sounded all funny and crazy and he was

like

um your dad is here and I was like

there's no way I just talked to him

yesterday he's in Beijing he's like no

he's sitting in my office

and I was like I'm on my way and then I

hear my dad in the background like you

will do no such thing this is a

conversation for men

I'm like

what

it's like okay I'll give you 15 minutes

and then I'm there yeah

and to this day I don't know what they

talked about while I was not in the room

but I know that when I got there there

were some they'd brokered some

understanding between each other

and even though my father was still

unhappy with the decision made to move

in with him

he did not stand in the way

and when I eventually married Peter he

walked me down the aisle

what year was it that you married pizza

was it 2001 2003 2003 so you got engaged

in 2001 yeah you met in 2000 yes

okay yeah quickly very quick yeah yeah

and you fall pregnant in 2000 2008 for

the first time eight

were you

ready whatever that means to be a mother

no no no no no no no no no no no no no

no no no

and even think I wanted to be a mother

ever

I wasn't sure that I did

well I was I was in my career had just

begun to like

you know climb in a way that was very

visible to me you're working at Pepsi at

this point I was working at Pepsi and

having really good success

uh and I was

uh I mean influenced by all of the

societal pressures that women have in

the workplace you know that's like look

if you have a baby it's going to slow

down your career

um people look at you differently you

know maybe your attentions are going to

shift and so you thought you were

ambitious about your career but let a

baby come along and now all of a sudden

you want the baby you don't want the

career

I I didn't I didn't want anything to

stop me

from the ambition of getting to the top

you know and also I was just like I'm

having a good time I just don't want to

be responsible for anybody else

and

I found out I was pregnant and I cried

you cried oh what kind of Tears no like

the fugly Tears like the tears that

make you vomit type tears the tear is

that when I called my mom to tell her

she was like stop crying

foreign

the tears that

Peter didn't know how to react to

because he was so excited he was he was

elated

and you know I was thinking

this is awful you know it's like

I don't want to be pregnant

and how do you actually say that when

you know at that point we've been

married for

almost five years we were like coming up

on our fifth anniversary I had a great

job he had a great job we had a

beautiful apartment in Manhattan it's

like

why wouldn't you you know it's like

everything seems perfect right it's like

no one could look at me and say oh

you're in a tough situation you

shouldn't have a baby

you know it felt selfish

to say I didn't want to be pregnant to

become a mother

and I

I went into it

under duress

you know I actually don't think that um

women especially I don't think women

talk about that enough

you know it's like the society's

pressure of like becoming a mother at a

certain stage in life or that if you

become a mother and you don't want to be

even when things are perfect

that that

can also feel like failure

or feel like a trap

it's like somehow you're supposed to get

pregnant and then start glowing

immediately

you know start feeling like all the

motherly feels I didn't feel any of that

I didn't want it

and

to be totally Canon and transparent it

wasn't until I was about five months

pregnant

when there was the first sign that

something might be wrong

with my pregnancy that all of a sudden

it was like whatever that instinct was I

was supposed to kick in when I found out

I was pregnant it kicked in at that

point

you know it's like I went from being

someone who was very Cavalier about the

pregnancy and trying to think about like

oh I got to get my snap back like how am

I gonna get my six back after this is

done you know I went from that person to

the like

well what do you mean

that there's like low amniotic fluid

what does that mean exactly because is

the baby okay like is is this little

homie growing or like let me hear the

heartbeat again you know it's like I it

was it was really that moment that did

it

and very quickly things descended into

hell

I discovered that I had a condition

called preeclampsia it's essentially

when your blood pressure rises in your

body because your body acts like the

pregnancy is like attacking you

and so every cell begins to fight

against the pregnancy

um

I

was forced to deliver the baby early

and she didn't survive

and it was

you know for someone who had not wanted

to be pregnant

it was

extraordinarily

devastating

I think it was a combination of things

you know it's like

I had begun to develop all the

protectiveness of motherhood

you know very much like I felt in Ben's

death

I thought

how could I have been a better mother

to this unborn person

you know what was my failure

in

taking care of myself

so that I could have a healthy child

and it again the similarities are

parallel where it's like look there's

there's nothing I could have done better

the aftermath of that

yes

take me into that moment what was that

what was that your life like in that

moment

I don't gosh how do I even articulate it

I don't know that there is um a word to

describe

the combination of like grief

over something or someone lost that you

really never had

you know with a combination of anger

Raw

Fierce anger at God

for

this situation

at Peter

for

having made the choice in the moment of

crisis when I'm sitting there and in the

bed and the blood pressure is going up

and I'm delirious and the doctor says

you know there's only one choice here

you save her or you save the baby which

one is it

and Peter says we'll save my wife

and I was pissed

because

again the whatever that thing is that

clicked in my head that said protect the

life that is coming first I was like no

you should have chosen that one I've

already lived I've already lived you

should have chosen her you said that's

fine yes

yes it was the beginning of the some of

the big factors in our relationship

that moment

you know and then also feeling like an

utter failure

because it's like

I mean

women since the beginning of time have

had babies apparently easily my mom had

four

you know it's like

stolen Africans were having freaking

babies in fields with no epidurals or

child care

and here I was living a very lavish

lifestyle

having an OB GYN that worked out of the

upper east side of Manhattan

and I couldn't even do that

ah all of those feelings

were

so Raw

and combined

and then on top of it

my

almost debilitating drive to be

successful at it

you know it's like again we just go back

to some childhood things that said well

look

I've gotta I've got to do the thing I've

got to be the best at the thing right

it's like so now okay this has happened

I have all of these terrible scary

emotions that are going on

but I'm gonna beat him up

clearly that's what I set out to do so

now I've got to do it

and so three months after Eve died I got

pregnant

by the way my doctor Pete everybody was

like absolutely not like this is not a

good idea

not my therapist everybody I was like I

don't care I'm gonna do it

not necessarily because

and this is a difficult thing to say

it's it's

not because I necessarily want to be a

mother

I want to do it successfully

I want to prove to myself to my body

that I could do it

you know that like and I I wanted to

like yell at God

and be like

did you take this away because I said I

didn't want it

well okay now now I want it so let's do

it

oh and even when I got sick again

with my second pregnancy I was like look

I'm gonna do everything man I consumed

so many prenatal vitamins boy look

I I would take them by like the Palm

fall and be like

you know and there wasn't I got a

specialist

I had I was taking uh Lovenox or anybody

knows it's like you know this blood

thinner that I would have to inject into

my belly every single day

man I was the most obedient pregnant

woman you've ever seen in your life

and I still got sick

seven months into my pregnancy still

with all of that

and so again it's like look

sometimes there are

situations

that you cannot control like

very much like Ben like he would have

chosen to end his life at some point

with or without my love with or without

me answering the phone

I was going to get ill

with or without the prenatals with or

without a specialist

those are not controllable by me but I

was still trying my best to be

successful to do it well

and when Leo was born

she came out screaming

and I took one look at that girl and I

was like

yeah

you and I were gonna make it

like you who you came here by any means

necessary

and I am going to love you like fiercely

deeply because it just took too much

together here

a year after Leo's birth I believe Peter

and you separated yeah

connected to all of that yes yes

connected to all of that I mean I think

that you know traumas in our life of

course and especially I think it for a

married couple and again for us you know

it's like Peter really wants to be a

father I wasn't sure I wanted to be a

mother we get pregnant

terrible things happen in the pregnancy

we lose Eve

I blame him entirely

and God you know

um he becomes

obsessed with my health

in my next pregnancy he does not want me

to get pregnant I'm like I'm going to

with or without your consent no I'm

kidding but it became

a battlefield in our home and in our

relationship we were no longer

a team what was missing

probably empathy

can probably just

narrow down to that like a very shallow

understanding of what the other person

was going through it's it's remarkable

to me now to think about it you know

it's like how do two people

who love each other so desperately

go through the same

event

and cannot grieve together can't see the

other one's grief how is that even

possible

yeah

just a few years later

he gets diagnosed with cancer

after you've separated yeah

these moments in life can have a

interesting influence on our perspective

how we feel about somebody in a

situation how did it influence your

perspective his diagnosis

Peter was the type of person who

never got sick

you know he'd walk around Manhattan in

winter time with like a

windbreaker

you know he didn't get colds he just

didn't get sick

and even in our separation

um and we

had then agreed to get divorced

um

he was always very like

Valiant

you know he just was not a person who

fell

I don't know how else to describe it you

know that he just wasn't he was just

tall and big and just

barreled through life

and for him to be diagnosed that way

with birkin's lymphoma which is

a cancer that is not curable but at the

time you know as oncologists were like

okay you're gonna do radiation you're

going to do chemo you know there's no