Could you do me a quick favor? If you're

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I remember my first away game and I

turned up and I said, "Oh, hi. Could you

tell me where the boardroom is?" And he

said, "Dear, you don't understand. The

director's wives go in the ladies room."

And I said, "No, I don't think it's you

understands. I am the managing

director."

Baroness Brady. [music]

She's one of Britain's most successful

business women. I'm the kind of person

that never hears the word no. I hear

find another way to get what you want.

Leadership is about vision and your art

as a leader is to persuade people to

believe in your vision.

I remember reading the story about your

son turning to you on holiday and

saying, "I wish your Blackberry would

blow up."

Working mother is the best title for me.

Sometimes you don't get it right. You

can only do the best you can do.

Ambition is that spark. It's that fire

inside of yourself that won't let you

settle for anything other than what you

think you deserve and what you want.

What you would say to those young women

that are starting out in their career?

I would say,

so without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO.

I hope nobody's listening, but if you

are, then please keep this to yourself.

[music]

Karen,

hello Stephen. [laughter] Um,

I I've spent the last couple of days

listening to your interviews and reading

a lot of sort of interviews you've done

in newspapers and things like that. And

as I got further and further and further

further into your story and further into

your childhood, there was this this

question which I wasn't able to answer

despite all that I' I'd read. And it's

you clearly from a very young age had

this real deep desire to have freedom

which resulted in this independence and

also resulted in this wonderful young

person who had this ability to like

stand up for themselves. But where did

this deep desire to be free from the

control of others where does it come

from?

I don't know. I mean, my mother always

tells a story that um when I was four

that um my grandfather was looking after

me at home and um my parents had this

drinks cabinet and it was sort of open

down and it had all these like bottles

of beautiful bottles and little glasses

and things

and she tells this story and I don't

remember it at all, but I got a chair

and I climbed up and I opened the drinks

cabinet and they had these little sherry

glasses and I poured all little bits of

liquid from it and and I started to

drink it and my grandfather said, "Um,

don't do that. You'll be sick." And I

said, "You leave me alone. I'll do what

I want. I won't be sick." And then, of

course, drank half of the [laughter]

of the drinks cabinet. Um, and wasn't

sick. [laughter]

And my mom said, "You were always

defiant. You always had your own mind.

Wanted to do your own thing. Uh, thought

you knew best. Cut my own hair when I

was six. We had a um a school photo the

next day and I decided the only person

who could cut my hair was myself and you

should see the picture. My fringe sort

of starts here and sort of goes like

that and it's got all lumps cut out of

it. I guess I kind of thought if I

didn't stand up for myself, no one

would. And I was very happy to stand up

for myself. And you know, in life as you

go through life, you one of the things

you realize is that if sometimes you've

got to find your backbone and you've got

to use it and simply putting one foot in

front of the other and keep going is one

of the philosophies I've had in my life.

But no, I always define, always stood up

for myself, never took anything lying

down. Yeah. I don't know. define feels

like the perfect word. Um, and I trying

to figure out where it came from because

usually when I sit with my guests, they

can like even if it's incorrect, they

can look back in hindsight and pinpoint

a moment, some kind of trauma or pain or

negative experience which shaped them to

be a bit of an anomaly in some way. So I

was like, where did this defiance come

from? And I couldn't quite figure it

out.

I don't know. I I have no idea. It's not

part of any trauma that happened to me.

I just I guess I always felt that I had

something to say and even at a young age

I wanted to say it and I didn't care who

heard it or how you know I just felt I

wanted to stand up for myself. I I have

no idea. I've never really thought about

it. I know it's definitely a part of my

personality trait that this defiance,

this I'm going to prove people wrong.

I'm going to do what I want to do how I

want to do it. Uh, but I never really

thought about where it came from.

What's this story about your first day

of school and your mom being concerned

that you might be shy and then finding

out that you [laughter] chucked some kid

off the chair?

Well, there's another I mean, I don't

remember any of these stories, but my

mom said the first day of school, she

was very worried if I would be shy or

would I want to go home or whatever. And

she went to pick me up from school and

she said to the teacher, "How was

Karen?" She said, "Oh, your daughter's

car. She'd always be shy." She said,

"Karen, shy?" She said she she went up

to a boy in a chair and she went,

"That's my seat. Get off." [laughter]

So, but I don't remember it. I don't

remember any of these things. But all

these little stories, they always have

one thing in common that I had this sort

of level of defiance and this, you know,

determination to to stand up for myself.

One of my suspicions when I was trying

to piece together this this little bit

of defiance puzzle was um reading about

your dad and how much of a sort of

hardworking autonomous man he was and

how hard you said he worked. I was

wondering if they had given you a bit of

a kind of a void of independence when

you were growing up that led you to

create this kind of independence in

yourself. Was were they like present and

were they on you?

No, definitely not on me in that way.

They weren't, you know, tiger parents

pushing you to the front. Although my

grandmother used to always say, "Be

first because it's the best place to

be." She used to always say that to me.

So my dad left school at 14, didn't have

much of an education and worked really

hard to get where he wanted. And I guess

the lesson from him was, you know,

nothing compensates for hard work. And

if you don't try, you know, if you don't

try something, you'll never know how

good you are at something. So I think

maybe that sheer resilience came from

his model of working hard, doing your

best, trying everything, pushing

yourself forward.

And would he give you advice? Would he

impart knowledge onto you or was it you

learning by his example of watching him

work?

I think almost definitely the the the

second one. I I don't remember him ever

sitting me down and saying, "Do this and

you you know your life will be better or

more enriched." I think it was just

learning from examples from seeing the

hard work and you know we went from

Edmonton to a little bit further up to

another little place in Edmonton to a

bit further up and our lives sort of got

slightly better and my dad's desire was

to give my brother and I a really good

education cuz he hadn't had one. So he

really wanted us to have a great

education cuz he felt that was a big

part of what was missing in his life.

And I guess he maybe he thought if you

have a great education, you don't have

to work so hard. You don't have to start

so much at the bottom. I think that was

a real driver for him.

And your mother?

My mother was a housewife. Okay.

So she had no ambitions for work. Very

smart woman, very nurturing in

everything that she did. My dad was away

working a lot. So she was a lot on her

own. Uh but equally funloving and

stylish and you know spoke her mind too.

And you at this age didn't have big

ambitions for what you wanted to do in

the future in terms of specific

ambitions about career options. There's

a quote which I read where you said, "I

wasn't gifted in anything. I wasn't

academic. I wasn't the best at anything.

In fact, I was a very average child who

really didn't know what she wanted to do

or where she was going to go. The

greatest gift that my parents gave me

was self-esteem."

Yeah. I think you're very lucky if you

know what you want to do. If you have a

vocation or a calling at a young age, I

think that is a remarkable thing that

you should you should channel. I didn't

know what I was good at. I didn't feel I

was particularly good at anything. I it

wasn't as though I had a particular

panache for, you know, anything. And

uh I wasn't particularly ambitious, but

I know I wanted to do something with my

life, but I didn't know what. And I

think ambition is something that sort of

creeps up on you slowly when you realize

you're good at something and you think,

"Oh, actually I'm quite good at this."

And then you think, "Actually, I might

be the best person in this room at this

or I might be the best person I know at

this." And that inspires you to to to

keep going. But I left school at 18. I

had O levels and A levels as they were

in those days, but I had no

qualifications. But what I had worked

out something really important and that

is I'd worked out my core values. So at

18 I had worked out that I was

ambitious, I was determined and I had

integrity. And core values are the

things that sort of make you who you

are. They are the things that lead you

to make the decisions you make for

yourself and the way you make decisions.

And 18, I knew those things about

myself. And at 52, I think they're still

my core values. And armed with those

things, I set out to get a job. And the

one thing I wanted for my life was

independence. I wanted to say what I

wanted to do and how I wanted to do it

and when I wanted to do it. And that's

predominantly because I'd been at

boarding school from a very early age.

Going back to my father wanted to give

me the best education. He thought

boarding school education was probably

the best. And at boarding school, you

get up when you're told, you eat what

you're told, you wear what you're told,

you do what you're told. And I'd had

enough. And I knew that independence

only really came when you had your own

money. And the problem is 18, I didn't

know how you made money. But I kind of

worked out almost everyone works for

someone even before they work for

themselves. So I went out and I got a

job. and at 18 with no qualifications

other than O levels and A levels but

armed with my core values that I really

wasn't afraid to work hard and I was

really ambitious and I would try

anything and I would do anything but

with integrity I went out and I got a

job and I started my career

something I just I was just trying to

piece these um put two kind of dots

together there boarding school a very

restrictive place the antithesis of like

freedom your childhood sounded like you

had quite a lot of sort of relative

freedom is there is is it possible that

you went from a childhood pre-boarding

school where you had a bit more freedom

and then because boarding school was

such a big change, you had a bit of an

allergic reaction to the someone taking

your freedom or do you

My friends who are still my friends from

when we were at school in those days, we

remember only one thing about that whole

time, the boredom of simply being there

and having mass sort of three times a

day. And the second thing was we were

hungry all the time. Every day was a

fast day. So you'd have, you know, the

holy saint of such and such day and it

was a fast day. And we remember those

those two things and the sort of

repressive attitude of wearing the same

thing, doing the same thing, doing what

you're told, not being able to explore

things you were interested in. Um, and

uh, none of us could wait to none of us

could wait to leave. But it did teach me

resilience,

the ability to do the things that need

to be done when they need to be done,

whether you like it or not. And that's

because every day was the same. And

there's a great lesson, I think, in life

in being able to force yourself to do

things you don't want to do because you

have to. And that taught me a great deal

of patience and resilience and

determination.

which is funny because much of your your

life has been very much the opposite

doing making sure you don't have to do

things you don't want to do and being

like restricted by the rules of others.

But there is a sense in every job you

do, whether you're

a pop star, you got to sing the same

songs every night,

you know, whether you're working in an

office or working for someone else or

reporting to shareers, there's an

element of our lives that has to be

done. And you get that discipline from

being able to do it and power through it

and approaching it in the way it needs

to be approached, which is a real

discipline as opposed to saying, "I

don't want to do it and I'm not going to

do it." there's a difference.

You you said earlier about how you

started at one point to notice the the

advantages or the skills you had over

your peers at a maybe a young age around

maybe 18 when you start to join the

working world and before what when you

looked at say 18 19 year old Karen what

were those skills that you started to

notice well I'm better than I seem to be

better than everyone else at this thing

or you know stronger or whatever

I went into sales um which is the sort

of place where most people go when they

don't really have anything else they

[laughter] can

what else they can do because you you're

either good at it or you're not. Um, but

you don't need any particular skills

other than being able to have resilience

of picking up the phone, keep trying,

not taking the knockbacks going forward.

And I realized I was good at it and I

would never take no for an answer. I

would always be determined. I would

continue to pick up the phone. I had a

sort of dogged attitude to not letting

the knocks get me down. you know when

people slam the phone down you or they

don't want to speak that ability to

learn the language it wasn't do you want

any it was how many do you want you know

it was that it was that sort of subtle

change of being able to be

personable I think I worked out an early

age that people do business with people

and it doesn't matter how much brain you

have if you don't have a personality you

can't put that brain into good uh you

know in in into a good place so having a

personality and having a brain is is a

good combination.

I worked in teley sales as well for four

years

from 16 to 20 odd whatever it was and it

was genuinely the most formative

experience of my life.

I agree.

Also because I didn't have the

qualifications. So it's the

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's a good place to start. I don't

know about you, but I'm not particularly

creative. I couldn't have done anything.

I mean, [laughter] I couldn't have done

anything in the arts world or anything

like that. But actually picking up the

phone, having that resilience, being

prepared to take the knockbacks, keep

pushing forward, never taking no for an

answer. Those are things I learned from

a very young young age.

So you did sales at Sachi and Sachi?

No, I did mean menial office work at

Sachi at Zachary and I left Sachi to go

into sales at 19 and I worked for London

Broadcasting Company where we sold

advertising space.

And that's where you met David Sullivan.

Yes, that's right. Yeah. He was one of

my very first clients and he took radio

advertising and within six months of me

meeting him and selling him radio

advertising he was spending2 million

pounds a year on radio which was the

highest spender on commercial radio in

the country and I was on a really high

commission.

Well done. [laughter]

It was a good time. [clears throat]

So you meet David Sullivan and he's

quite well he's not spending on radio at

the at the time when you met him and

he's kind of against it I hear.

Yeah. he didn't think it particularly

worked and I sold him the idea that he

would take the advertising package and

if sales didn't go up he didn't have to

pay for it and he said yeah sounds okay

to me and I sort of thought well if he

doesn't pay for I'm going to be in

trouble but I thought I'll worry about

that when that happens I was just

pleased to have made the sale and he

took the advertising the advertising did

work and he kept spending and spending

and spending

if we zoom in on that that sale that

deal you closed with David Sullivan I

know a lot of people couldn't have

closed that deal and I know that was a

pivotal moment in your early career but

I know a lot of people couldn't have

closed that deal. So as you look back in

hindsight what was it about Karen that

helped you to close that deal? Well, one

I went to see him. So, I turned up at

his offices and I waited until he saw me

and I waited a long time, quite a few

hours until he felt, I think, sorry for

me and I wasn't going anywhere and he

let me do the pitch, the presentation,

which I did. Equally, I always had this

um feeling that, you know, what's the

worst that can happen? And the worst

that could happen is he didn't take the

package and he slung me out. But the

best that could happen is he saw me and

he took the package. So, I always looked

on the bright side. So, I turned up, I

did the deal, I presented well, I had

all the facts and figures. I knew what I

was talking about. And I guess he

thought it took a chance. I think the

package was I can't remember. It wasn't

a lot of money. You know, it wasn't a

multi-million pound deal that someone

have to really think about it. I pitched

it just that it would be an impulse. It

could be someone that it was enough

money to have a gamble. Not too much,

not too little, just in that spot. And I

persuaded him. I had this art of

persuasion, talked about what it could

do for him, how it would work, and he

and he took it. And that was the

beginning of my one of my very own

clients that stayed with me for many

years and still today we're still

working together at West Ham some 30

years later.

That is pretty um incredible. Did he

know you were coming that day to pitch?

Had he booked in a meeting to see you?

I can't remember. I think I'd booked in

a meeting. Whether he knew about that or

not, [laughter] I don't know. Right.

I can't remember

because that did end up being quite an

early pivotal moment for you. It's quite

a testament to the fact that again

people do buy from people and that you

were very a very persuasive person. But

also there's a subless in there which

I've heard you talk about before which

is when you're young and you don't have

a ton to lose because young people fall

into this trap of thinking that no is

some kind of like death sentence or it's

fatal.

Yeah.

But as you say, you know, when you've

got nothing else to lose.

Yeah. I had nothing to lose. The worst

thing that could have happened is he

didn't buy it. Um, and I had to sell it

to someone. I was very independent. I

wasn't relying on my parents for money.

I was relying on myself. I had no safety

net, no nest egg. I had no, you know,

no, I had to pay my rent. I had to pay

my bills. I had to pay my travel. I had

to pay for my food. And I had to make

that sale for me. It had to happen. It

wasn't a case of, well, we we'll we'll

see. But I'm the kind of person that

never hears the word no. When someone

says no to me, I don't hear no. I hear

find another way to get what you want.

And that's what I always do. I always I

think no is is only really pivotal if it

ultimately stops you doing what you want

to do. If you hear no and you can find

another way of getting what you want,

that's that's just as good as hearing a

yes.

Am I right in thinking that you're

someone that like really believes in a

philosophy versus like current skills?

Because you're when you talk, you talk

in terms of like your own philosophy to

life. And a lot of people when they

speak they speak in terms of I don't

know skills or hacks or tricks or

whatever. But yours seems to be much

deeper than that. Even saying that

they're defaulting to optimism all the

time. And the

I don't know. I've never really I've

never really [clears throat] thought

about it. I think you you know you you

you need the ability to work hard. You

need the ability to push yourself

forward. You need the ability to have a

backbone. You need the ability to um

have a dogged sort of determination. And

if you have a great idea, so much the

[laughter] better. So much the better.

People say to me, you know, what what is

an entrepreneur? Well, an entrepreneur

is someone that just spots a gap in the

market for a service or a product that

that is either not available or

available, but they can make it better.

And they're the kind of people that

well-meaning people say, "Oh, don't do

that. That's very risky." but they are

prepared to back themselves and put all

those doubters to one side and just plow

through it. And that that's sort of been

what I've done for 30 years.

As you said, that relationship with

David has sustained still today and he

actually went on to hire you. So what

have you learned about the importance of

like relationship building in business?

And

I think that uh part and parcel of

running a great business is to have

really good culture and really good

culture comes from trust and being

candid and being honest and supporting

one another. And it's interesting that

David Sullivan is I'm is still with me

in West Ham. So is David Gold. Two

people who I started with from a very

young age. Um, and we're still all

working together and we still have lots

to talk about and lots of ideas and we

still bounce off each other and we trust

each other and I think that's a really

fundamental part of growing a great

business.

Being candid, you said there. Talk to me

about how candid you are in business.

Very. I think it's important. I have a

great candid atmosphere at West Ham. I

want people to say what they don't think

is right, what they think could be

better, what needs to be changed. I

think if you have too many like-minded

people running the same organization,

you're so busy patting each other off on

the back as you sort of follow each

other off the edge of the cliff, you

need people to say, "Hang on a minute.

Why is this important? How does this

affect us? What does this, you know,

what does this mean we stand for? What

are our values? What's our purpose?" You

need people to be honest and candid. And

I think candid is good. And how do I go

about creating a candid culture in my

company? Say if I've, you know, I'm

running a a business and I want people

to be more candid, what what what do I

do and don't do to make sure that we

arrive at that place?

Well, the most important thing the most

important thing that people want from

you when you're running your

organization is your time. They want

time with you. They want you to listen

to them. They want to be in your inner

circle. They want to be part of part of

it. That's what people want. Um, it's,

you know, it's become less, I think, as

times have gone on about money and

status and more about being in the know,

being in that in that room when

decisions are made and making people

feel that they can be in the room, that

they're part of the discussion and that

you'll listen to them and that they can

say what they want without worrying

about, you know, what's going to happen

to me next. I think that's that's really

important. So, say someone's in the

boardroom with you and they they say

something which is maybe even negative

towards a decision you've made. I guess

you've got to be cautious of your

reaction to make sure that they don't in

the future shy away from because you're

a very powerful woman. You know, it

would be quite intimidating to tell you

the truth.

I don't think I think if you spoke to my

staff, they or the people that I work

with, they would all say that the one

thing Karen is great at is listening and

understanding. And I think the minute

you think as a leader of organization

you know everything is the minute you

don't know anything at all. You have to

believe in lifelong learning. You have

to believe that the people around you

are valuable enough to have a different

opinion to yours that is just as

important. And the minute you think they

they don't have an opinion that's

important as yours, you either don't

have the right team or you don't have

the right team with the right skills. I

like to employ people better than me

because it sort of proves I'm better

than them, if that makes sense.

[laughter] And then when you have people

with um great knowledge and great

skills, why wouldn't you listen to them

when they tell you something? I mean, of

course, you have debates. I want to do

everything quickly. I want to do

everything

um with strength and power and purpose.

And others are like, well, hang on a

minute. Let's not go at that pace. Let's

try and do this. Let's do something. And

sometimes you follow your gut instinct

because it's important. And people say

to me, well, what what is a gut

instinct? A gut instinct, I think it's

made up of all the experiences you've

had through your career.

And you've sort of when you're in faced

with a problem, you've been in that

movie before. You've had that problem

before. A different problem in a

different moment about a different

thing, but very similar. and you know

the outcome. So your gut instinct goes,

"Hang on a minute. I've I've I've

somehow I've been here before and I know

how this plays out." And I find if I

follow my gut gut instinct, I tend to go

make the right decisions. And if I

ignore it, I tend to go bad. But

sometimes you need someone to go, "Hang

on a minute, take a step back, have

another look at this, have a think about

this." And it's a very uh it's a very

lonely place if you don't have people

around you that want the same things as

you that want to help you achieve and

build the things that you you you want

to do. And being able to listen to

people and encourage people to have

their thoughts and ideas is I think

really really important.

So how much of an organization that you

you run and what parts of it are a

democracy? because I'm trying to see

that balance between you being assertive

and making the the call but also

operating in some respects like a bit of

a democracy where you're hearing

everyone's opinions. Is there like a

balancing act?

Yeah, I mean look, if you think about

leadership um and you should never

confuse leadership with management.

Management is about setting out a series

of goals and managing people to deliver

them. Very important. But that's not

leadership. Leadership is about vision.

And sometimes it's only a vision you can

see. And your art as a leader is to

persuade people to believe in your

vision and help you deliver it. So we

have large groups of people that help

deliver visions. So our next vision for

West Ham, for example, is to go from a

60,000 capacity to a 62 and a half

thousand capacity. And we're in the

process, we've got planning permission

for it. in the process of going through

that transition. Um, how do we sell

those extra tickets? Who do we sell them

to? Do we put the price up? Where do we

allocate them? How do people get in?

Should there be more bars? These are

huge decisions. One person cannot make

those decisions. And everybody who has a

stake in that decision should have a

say. And that's everyone from the

commercial department right through to

you know the person who runs the

disabled supporters group. Everyone

needs to make that decision together and

that's how you breed great culture

listening to people understanding the

problems finding the solutions together

having some fun while you do it. So it's

not all you know over charts and in in a

very um rigid way. It is much more in a

conversational way. So for example, I

took a load of my team to Seville when

we played in Europa and we went

together. We had a great time together.

We use the downtime to talk about things

important to us and it's part and parcel

of creating a place where people feel

really proud to work. They feel really

proud of what they do and they feel

really well respected

and they have a lot of fun.

They have a lot of [clears throat] fun.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just realized I'm playing at

your stadium.

Oh, is it in the um the soccer age?

Yes.

Yes. [laughter]

Hopefully that will sell it out for you.

But um no, I just realized as you were

talking then yeah, we're playing at

unbelievable beautiful stadium which I

know you're you're a big part of getting

winning the bid to kind of move over

there. On the topic I'm really excited

by the way what a tremendous honor that

is to get to play at your stadium. But

um on the topic of football then you so

David Sullivan ends up hiring you from

LBC.

Yes.

And you join his corporation and then I

hear at like 22 23 years old you see an

advert in the Financial Times to for

Birmingham City which is in financial

hardship and you

administration

and you persuaded David to buy

Yes.

Birmingham.

What? [laughter] Well, he to be fair to

him, he was looking at buying either a

race course or a football club. He was

interested in doing something in that

area and Birmingham had gone into

administration. There was a little ad

that said football club for sale and I

thought that's interesting. And I got

the details and I went to him. I said,

"There's this football club for sale.

You buy it and I'll run it."

What?

And he was like, "Oh, football very

male-dominated. You'll have to be twice

as good as the men to be thought as even

only half as good." And I said, "Well,

luckily that's not difficult.

[laughter]

and he said, "Okay, we'll give it a go."

And and we did. And it was bought really

quickly within three days. That was like

a Friday. And on the Tuesday, we owned

the club and that was it. We uh we went

in there. We we made so many mistakes,

but we had a great time. It was such a

fantastic experience, you know, to be

given the challenge and chance of a

lifetime to run a great business and

change it, take it out of

administration. I mean, it made a

trading profit for the first time in its

history after my first year. And it was

a real learning curve. Uh, but it was

great fun.

I love how you glossed over the fact so

graciously that at 23 you took over the

management of a football club after

seeing an advert in the Financial Times

and persuading David to buy it. You took

over the management of a football club

at 23.

Yes. I was desperate to look at least

25. [laughter]

Like the press conference, big hair,

shoulder pads, power dressing. So,

did you just have the the courage and

the conviction and the confidence to

take on that role? Because football is a

complete like I don't even think No, I

definitely would not have the the

confidence to run a football club. And I

I' I've loved football. I've followed it

my whole life. I've ran big businesses.

But a football club is a whole different

beast.

It is like it is different. And it's

different because

it doesn't make anything. It doesn't

manufacture anything. It doesn't produce

anything other than more footballers.

all its assets are people. So being able

to manage people and to manage the

diversity of those people and it comes

back to that culture by having an

environment where everyone has to do

everything within their skill set to

make the business a success and know

that that is valued and respected and

there is no uh ceiling on your ambition.

Whether it's the 18-year-old that wants

to go into the first team or the

18-year-old who works in the ticket

office that one day wants to run it,

it's up to you where you go. And I

wanted to create a sort of a a business

that I wanted to work in when I was 18

where you you was nothing holding you

back. There was no politics, there was

no age, you know, no discrimination

whatsoever. The it was there for you to

do and achieve what you wanted to

achieve within our environment.

And that's why football is different

because some people can't get their

heads around the fact of what

footballers earn and they begrudge it if

they're not playing well. They they they

don't you know part and parcel of

managing people is understanding people

and respecting people and valuing people

and giving people your time and your

encouragement. But more importantly than

that, it's about standing alongside

people and supporting them when things

are not going well. much more than when

things are going well. Um, being their

backbone and their uh and their support

system. Very important in people's

business.

As well as that culture, what else was

it that helped you take Birmingham

because your stint at Birmingham is seen

as being incredibly successful as as you

say, like turn the club profitable for

the first time in like recent history.

What how did you do that outside of

culture? There must have been tough

decisions you had to make.

Very there were loads. I mean from when

I first went there to sort of getting

rid of everybody. Lots of businesses

that I am involved in or I know friends

that run the biggest

issue for lots of people that run those

businesses is making the change to

personnel when they need to because they

find it very difficult if someone's been

with them a long time to realize

actually

that person's skill set was great when

we were growing the business and now we

need a different skill set to take it to

the next level. But you think, but

that's John. John's been with us

forever. It's very difficult. But you

have to sort of step above that and say

it's my responsibility to ensure this

business is success for the 800 people

that work there and the shareholders and

everything it stands for. So you have to

make the best decisions and you have to

try and remove as much emotion as you

can out of it, but also always doing the

right thing for the right reason and not

for any other reason. And I think one of

the most important things in a people

business is you must never underestimate

the power of kindness. Being kind to

people and being respectful of people is

really important.

I had a few words to say about one of my

sponsors on this podcast. We often see

the success of a business and forget

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below. Quick one. As many of you know,

I've been trying to make my life a

little bit more sustainable as it

relates to energy ever since I sold my

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recommend you check out the Eddie. It's

um it's a real game changer for a

product and one that I'm going to be

installing in my home soon. I think

David Sullivan when he described you and

much of the reason why he had this has

this huge admiration for you is exactly

that. I think he in an interview said

you were a good sacker.

I think what we probably meant was I

wasn't afraid to make tough decisions.

Yeah. and and some of them were really

tough.

Even at 23.

Yeah, even at 23, I really had a clear

vision of what I wanted to achieve and

knew the kind of people I needed around

me to achieve it.

You talked about how emotion sometimes

gets in the way of those tough decisions

for a lot of people. I've seen the same

thing in in businesses when they get a

little bit romantic about the wrong

objective basically or the wrong thing

and that ends up compromising what

should be their primary objective which

is the company, you know, in their role

as CEO or founder whatever. And I've

also heard you say that emotion, well

maybe that was the the headline of the

article. You've described yourself as

not being an overly emotional person,

but the the article I read, remember the

headline was um emotion isn't in her

makeup.

So something words to that effect. Does

that re resonate with you? Is that

something do you think consider yourself

to be an emotional business person?

I'm very logical as a person. I don't

worry about the effect on me of any

decision that I make as long as I feel

it's the right decision. I worry about

the effects it has on others. Um, but

I'm I don't get overly emotional about

things to me which are unimportant,

whether that be criticism on social

media or criticism wherever that comes

from. As long as I know the decision

I've made and why I've made that

decision, I can stand by it. And I care

much more about what my family and my

friends and my colleagues think of me

than someone on social media who I'm

never going to meet, don't know, and I'm

never going to have a conversation with.

So, I'm not emotional from that point of

view.

When you take on a football club as

well, and you've worked in football

clubs for what, two decades, three

decades, three decades now,

you're dealing with emotional fan bases

just like hysterical. I I know cuz I'm a

Manchester United fan and we're very,

you know, emotional as a fan base right

now, but a hysterical, almost

unpleasable, thankless fan base, it

seems at times. So, how has that

impacted you? They're like the voice of

the fan base in your decision-m does it

factor in

every decision I make I make for them to

make them prouder of the football club

to bring them the success that they want

to deliver

the things they want to see at the

football club and the way they want to

see them. Whether that's what we did

through the pandemic for our community,

what we continue to do for our

community, the fact that we keep our

prices low, the fact that we promise

them European football and we've

delivered it, the fact that we have

great players and great culture and a

great manager. Every every decision I

make, I don't make for myself, I make

for them. And I do it to the very best

of my ability. And sometimes they don't

like those decisions and sometimes they

don't agree with those decisions, but

they're all done because it's what I

consider to be for the best of the club.

And also, I guess sometimes they don't

understand those decisions because the

fan base isn't of any football club

isn't a fan base that's educated on

business and finance and inner workings

of a club. So there's lots of like

misconceptions about the decisions that

are being made and are they like

self-profiting decisions or whatever.

How important is transparency in running

I would say in any business but really

in a football club where you've got

millions of people who are your I guess

your stakeholders. How and like clubs

don't seem to be that transparent

largely.

I think it's hugely important. Um and I

think I think football supporters are

very knowledgeable on the business of

football. It may not be a priority for

them but I think they are knowledgeable.

I mean they you've looked at clubs that

have had a really difficult financial

time and having a firm foundation on

which to build they know is important

and it's equally you know it's important

that they know the parameters. I mean,

we we're not, you know, oligarchs or

Saudi Arabian billionaires. We're we're

English taxpayers. We do the best we can

and we generate as much money as we can

without putting that burden onto them,

which is why we have the cheapest season

tickets in the Premier League, let alone

in London in a brand new stadium. So, we

try and go on the journey together. But

I mean, moving to the Olympic Stadium,

54,000 season ticket holders completely

sold out. Some people didn't like it.

But you have to make a decision that you

think is right for the right reason. And

going from a 35,000 seat stadium to a

what is going to be a 62 and a half

seater stadium was a big move and a bold

move and it has proved to to work out

for us which is why we're now playing in

Europe. What would that have happened if

we were at Upton Park? probably not

because it hadn't happened for many

decades before that. So I think people

don't like change and it's important

that they understand why the change

happens and what it means to them and

how it's going to affect them and how

hopefully it enriches their life as

opposed to make it makes it worse.

Do you have an objective at West Ham to

um be more transparent? The recent event

that comes to mind around transparency

in football is obviously the was it like

the European Super League thing

where suddenly one day we all wake up

and all of our favorite football clubs

in the like the top eight or what? Not

even in the top eight but had decided

they're all going to join top six. Yeah,

they're not even the top six.

Yeah, it wasn't even the top six.

There were six of them.

Yeah, exactly. [laughter] I can't even

say that. Manchester United were at the

point, but um they decided to join this

this super league in Europe and it

seemed like it was just this like self

profiting decision which kind of ruined

football or whatever. And after that, I

saw a little bit of a change in some

clubs like Liverpool that the owners

came out and did like a video

apologizing. It was the first time I'd

seen like owners post a video of them

talking on social media. Is this one of

your objectives within the organization

that you run at West Ham to be more

open, a more of a glass box?

We try to let our manager and our team

do the talking for us cuz

because the the supporters don't want to

hear what the CEO thinks. They want to

know what the team think and the manager

thinks. And I think from our point of

view, we're always very respectful of

that. You know, some chairman write

program notes, some chairmans do videos.

We tend to want our team to to do the

talking for us. And we don't really want

to put any more pressure on them and the

manager than they all put on themselves

because they're the ones that put the

pressure on themselves to be successful.

Um, they don't need it from us. As I

look throughout your whole life, one of

the clear consistent themes in you is

your hard work.

Yeah.

It's just like, you know, sometimes it

looks a little bit like obsession in

certain parts of your story. I read

about the fridge not being turned on in

your apartment. Someone saying

my friend my friend came to live with me

and she said, um, the the sticky stuff

still around the fridge and the oven had

never been turned on. And I Yeah.

What age was that?

21.

And you just you were working so hard

you hadn't turned the fridge on. you

were in the office so much.

Well, the thought of cooking and eating

at home never occurred to me. I'd always

grab something on the way in or the way

out would never the thought of actually

buying food because I knew if I bought

food it would just go go off.

People talk about work life balance,

right? And this like obsessive like

they do these days.

Yeah, they do these days in when I was

starting those that phrase had never

been uttered by anyone.

What's your opinion of the the work life

balance conversation? Oh, I think it's

uh much more sensible than anything I

did. Definitely. I think that, you know,

in in my day, you started at the bottom

of the run and you worked your way up

very slowly and carefully to get as high

up the ladder as you could. Whereas now,

it feels much more like a web where you

do a bit over here and a bit over there

and change and do that and then don't

like that, you go and do this. Um, and

you have a much more rounded life. And I

think technology has changed how we all

work. I mean, you know, you're getting

up at 6:00 in the morning to be in the

office at 7 and staying to 8:00 at

night. You don't have to do that now.

And I think that's so much for the

better.

And so, do you live a more rounded life?

Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I don't go

into my office at the crack of dawn and

sit there all day and expect everybody

else with the old ball and chain to be

there. I mean, I I know from having a

family and a career that actually having

flexibility is really important and

giving staff the ability to come in when

they need to and work from home when

they want to is important.

But I guess you didn't always because I

remember your reading the story about

your son turning to you on holiday and

saying, "I wish your Blackberry would

blow up, mom," or something.

Yes. Working mother is the best title

for me because there's two things that

are very important in my life, and that

is my family and my work. And I've tried

my very best to to make those things

work together. Sometimes you don't get

it right. Sometimes you have to decide

that family is more important than work

or work has a priority that's more

important than family and you have to

try and juggle and you spend your whole

life going sports day, board meeting,

parents evening, board meeting, you

know, and you never know where you can

be. And until you come to the conclusion

that you cannot be in all the places you

need to be, you you you can only do the

best you can do. It's a sort of relief.

And sure, my kids will always say, "I

worked throughout their whole growing

up." Um, but they learn different things

from a working parent. the ability to be

independent, to have uh ambition, to

value yourself, to work hard. Those are

those are very good lessons as well.

And do you set aside time to like switch

off as they say?

I don't need to switch off.

Interesting.

I mean, nothing's work unless you'd

rather be doing something else, I find.

And there are times when I think, oh

god, I got to go and do that like today.

[laughter]

No, I'm only joking. I'm only joking.

But there are times when you go, oh,

I've got to go and do that. And you only

feel that sort of but the one thing this

drive for independence

it also comes with another added bonus

and that added bonus is the ability to

say no. If I don't want to do anything

all I have to say is no thank you. When

you're building a career you have to say

yes to everything and you have to say

yes even when you so want to say no and

you say yes and you think how do I get

out of this? try to think of a million

million things you know million excuses

uh to get out of it but when you are

independent you can say no and it's a

great

freedom to not have any obligation where

you have to you don't have to say yes to

anything you can say no if you don't

want to do something and you say yes

when you want to do it and you tend to

enjoy that balance of your life a lot

more

we met in Saudi Arabia for anybody that

doesn't know that was the first time

we'd met and I'd watched you on you know

TV growing up. But in Saudi Arabia, we

were on stage together. We were in a

panel of five and what happened on the

stage, I actually came back and told all

my team and I said, "I absolutely I love

her." Right. So, I don't know if you

know what I'm about to say. I don't.

You don't. Okay. So, we're on stage um

in Saudi Arabia, kind of like a Dragon's

Den style thing where these

entrepreneurs are coming up and pitching

to us and one of the panelists, one of

the male panelists to my left

[snorts]

um you went to ask a question, right?

All right. I don't know if you remember,

but you went to ask a question of the

entrepreneur that was pitching to us and

then one of the male panelists to my

left, he kind of like interrupted you

and and spoke and carried on speaking

and you waited about 30 seconds. You let

him finish his kind of interruption and

then in front of what must have been a

thousand plus people. You turned to him

very calmly said, "One second, I asked

my question first." And then you carried

on with your question and the whole

audience burst into applause.

I do remember that. Do you remember?

[laughter]

I do remember that.

And I'm sat there like, "What?"

I do remember that. I do remember that.

I was really quite annoyed.

Really?

Um I was annoyed because we'd gone to

Saudi. Well, I'd gone to Saudi to talk

about the importance of women and our

rights and being respected. Uh and then

to be spoken over on a stage, I was not

going to let that go under any

circumstances. And I think it was a good

way of being able to show how it's

important to stand up for yourself and

not to be walked all over. And I

certainly was not going to be walked all

over.

And everyone in the room understood that

moment for big significance you

described there because

it was in a very unemotional

professional way. It wasn't in a

It was the most classy like wonderful

polite way to destroy someone.

[laughter]

It was like that's why I said to my team

after I was like she the way she did it

was so like classly classy and like

gracious but it made such a profound

point and you could tell the point was

made because the whole room burst into

applause. But that kind of brings me on

to a wider point about and as you say

the reason why you're in Saudi is this

battle that I know you've had through

your career with men kind of

underestimating you or sexism which I

guess started when you first got the job

at Birmingham.

Yeah. I mean, I remember my first um

away game. I think it was Watford, and I

turned up and I said, "Oh, hi. Could you

tell me where the boardroom is?" And

this little old boy, little steward on

the desk, he went, "Oh, director's wives

over there." And I said, "That's

interesting, but where where is the

boardroom?" And he said, "Dear, you

don't understand. The director's wives

go in the ladies room." And I said, "No,

I don't think it's you understand. I am

the managing director, so I want to know

where the boardroom is." And this little

boy put his little glasses on. He went,

"Oh, yes." He said, "Yes, you're that

woman. Stay here and I'll find out what

to do with you." Because there were no

other women in football. So, there was

never a woman in the boardroom. And

women weren't, you know, weren't welcome

in in boardrooms because it was meant to

be the place where the directors or met.

And of course, they were all men. And I

remember thinking that it was the very

first door I'd kicked down. And I was

determined that I would keep that door

open as wide and as long as possible to

get as many other women through as

possible. And that is something I've

spent my last 30 years doing. It's

really important to me. It's really

important that that there is a sense of

equality and equal pay and equal respect

for everything that you do regardless of

where you're from, what sex you are,

what your beliefs are, how you look,

where you're educated. Equality is very

important to me.

Why do you think it's so important to

you in particular? I think because look

at 23 I was given the challenge and

chance of a lifetime and I took that and

I knew that that started with someone

having trust in me and I knew that there

were so many talented people out there

that didn't have someone that had that

trust in them and I wanted to be that

person. Did you experience um sort of

sexist behavior from the players?

Occasionally, but nothing that I

couldn't deal with. I mean, I was very

lucky in a sense that from 16 to 18, I

went to a boarding school that was

predominantly all boys. So, it had girls

in the six forms. So, he had like, I

don't know, 20 girls and 600 boys. So

being surrounded with young men all had

something to say and knowing how to deal

with that was something that stood me in

good goodstead for my career. So it

wasn't difficult for me and I didn't get

phased by it and it didn't upset me and

I wasn't emotionally damaged and I

didn't feel scarred and I didn't had to

go crying to anyone. I I I could deal

with it. It didn't phase me and it was

an irrelevance of mine. One of the

things that I've noticed specifically in

the like black community is or one of

the concerns I had growing up was I'd

see in some of my black friends that the

belief that they were they were at a

disadvantage actually seemed to hurt

them more than the disadvantage itself

if that makes sense.

Do do you have the same concern that

worrying too much that you might not get

in will stop you from taking the actions

to get in if that makes sense? I'm sure

every

every woman at some point in their

career when they've had to say shall I

stop to have a family

what is that going to you know how is

that going to affect me how is that

going to affect my pay my career

prospects my promotion my standing I'm

sure every woman at that point has had

that that thought and unfortunately or

fortunately as we you know women give

birth to all the taxpayers in the world

we deserve have a break really. So I'm

sure it is a thought that crosses

people's mind. I mean I read some

research that 54,000

returning new mothers to work are so

badly treated because they are

considered to be a burden to the teams

in which they work. People are going to

think they're going to want to go early.

They're not going to be as focused.

They're going to have brain fog that

they are eitherounded out of their jobs

or choose to leave. And that's a

shocking statistic really.

Um, so yeah, I I can see how people are

just, you know, waiting for that moment

when someone, you know, when you do have

to say, I have to go and pick my son up

from school. I have to leave early. It's

a difficult conversation and you're

considered to be, you know, less

valuable because you have these these

these real other issues. So I I can

understand how it plays on people's

mind, but it's important for

women like me to change attitudes

because if I don't do if if women like

me have achieved something, if we don't

use our voice to change it for the next

generation, who's going to do it?

One of my guests pointed out to me um a

couple of weeks ago that when a woman is

successful and she's a mother, people

always ask the question like, "Oh my

god, how do you how do you do it?"

Whereas when a guy is successful, even

if he's a father, no one no one cares

about. Well, no one asks. No one asks

because they presume he's got a wife.

Yeah.

Who's doing it for him?

Yeah. Like Joe Wix. Joe Wix has been

here once or twice. And when Joe Wix is

doing all of his stuff, Pee for Joe,

etc., no one is on his Instagram going,

"What about the kids?"

Yeah. [laughter]

But um we've had women entrepreneurs

that have been here who do a very very

similar thing to Joe Wix. And it's the

question that they get asked all over

their Instagram if they do a workout on

their social media. It's like, "Well,

where are the kids?"

But I think there's two reasons for

that. One is other women want to know

how do you manage that so you

[clears throat] can inspire me to to to

find a way um and the other is because

it's uh it's an easy thing to ask a

woman and that's the lazy question you

know where are your kids? What do you do

with your kids? How do you manage with

your kids? It's a bit like when whenever

you know whenever there's a picture of a

a woman there's always what she's

wearing.

Yeah. uh where is never for a man. Maybe

because women wear better clothes. I

don't know. It is [laughter]

but it's always about what you're

wearing, where'd you get it, how much

was it?

Um and it's always defined you, you

know, uh so and so in her bright pink

jacket. They don't say, "Oh,

[clears throat] Steven in his black."

I wish they did, but [laughter] clearly

not interesting enough.

I had a few words to say about one of my

sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons

have begun to change, so has my diet.

And um right now I'm just going to be

completely honest with you. I'm starting

to think a lot about slimming down a

little bit because over the last couple

of probably the last four or five months

my diet has been pretty bad. Um and it

started to show a little bit really over

the last two months. I go to the gym

about 80% of the time. So I track it

with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp

group in this tracker online that we all

use together. We call it fitness

blockchain. And I'm currently at 81%.

Um, so 81% of the days I've done a

workout in the last 150 days, right? So

I'm going to the gym about six times a

week, that's been a little bit impacted

by the Derio Live tour, but I'm trying

to stick to it. And so one of the things

I'm doing now to reduce my calorie

intake and trying to get back to being

nutritionally complete in all I eat is

I'm having the Hule protein shake. Thank

you, Hu, for making a product that I

actually like. The salted caramel is my

favorite. I've got the banana one here,

which is the one my girlfriend likes.

But for me, salted caramel is the one.

Paul, your husband Paul

been together since 1995. I think you

met him at Birmingham. He was like the

star player.

How's that been, you know, being such a

careerdriven person, um, who's had these

fairly all-consuming jobs throughout the

years. You know, it's funny when I

there's an interesting thing that

happens in the comments section when I

because I ask every single guest, every

single podcast about relationships. It's

what something I'm just really intrigued

by because I've struggled over the years

with my work and trying to balance the

relationship. But when I ask women this,

people again, I understand why they

assume that I'm asking it because for

the same reasons we've just described,

like I'm trying to understand how you

can be a wife but also hardworking. So,

I just want to put that out there

because I see a lot of the [laughter]

comments. But no, I'm really curious.

you know, you've been this pretty

relentless entrepreneur for the last

three decades, whatever it's been. How

has it been to to manage a relationship

and be that person um and a partner

while also being the tremendous business

woman?

Well, um you have to remember that we've

been married a very long time. And when

we first got together, Paul's career was

much more dominant than mine really. and

uh he was traveling around playing at

different clubs, playing for his country

and I was the one staying at home

looking after the kids having my career

and and working around that and he was

the one going around and then he uh

retired from football and my career took

off a bit and then he became a football

manager and I stayed home more with the

kids and we sort of we've balanced our

our lives to give each other the space

to do the things that we love that make

us rounded individuals.

I have no jealousy of anything he does

and equally to me. So, for example, when

I'm filming The Apprentice, um I don't

know how it how it works on on Dragon's

Den, but when we film The Apprentice,

when it says it's 4:00 a.m., the

voiceover says it's 4:00 a.m., it really

is 4:00 a.m. And we work 16 to 18 hours

a day, seven days a week for five weeks

to produce that show without a break.

There isn't a day off. And it is really

hardgoing. So I always say to Paul, it's

much better if he's not there because I

want to get up at four o'clock in the

morning, have a bath, put the lights on,

turn the television on, leave when I

want, then get back maybe 8:00 at night,

go straight to bed, ready for a 4:00

a.m. start the following day or whatever

it is. So he goes to Canada to see his

family because his parents live in

Canada and he has a great time with his

family and I can focus on what I have to

do without any distractions because what

happens during that period is let's say

he might say um should you go out for

dinner tonight and I'll say yes and then

I don't get home because filming's

overrun and I'm not home till 1:00 in

the morning and then he's like oh you

coming you're not coming and I I just

it's too much. It's on top of everything

else it's too much. It's much better if

I have my space to do what I've got to

do and he has his space to do what he's

got to do. But the one thing that we

have in common is we've built a great

family and we we respect each other. We

love our kids. Our kids are our whole

life. Even though they are, you know, 25

and 23, we everything is about our

family and everything we do together is

is really important. And I have to say,

if you said to me, you got one day left

on the earth. What would you do with it?

I'd want to spend it with my husband and

my two kids because we have such a great

laugh together and we're good friends

and there's a real bond of family

between us.

How important is it to be candid?

Because that's kind of what you were

describing there, being so candid with

how you're feeling and what you're going

through. A lot of people don't have that

in relationships.

Oh, we're definitely candid. [laughter]

We're definitely candid.

And how important is that, do you think?

I'm asking for myself.

I think it's really important because

you can't pretend to be someone you're

not.

It's a bit like in an early part of a

relationship. I got a friend who's have

got an early part of a relationship and

the guy she [clears throat]

is with likes the opera. She cannot

stand it. But she's saying, "Oh yes,

love the opera." And I'm like, "Why

don't you just say hate the opera? I

couldn't think of any. I'd rather do

less." Because when he finds out

actually you hate the opera and then or

or you find out you got to go more to

the opera and you're going to resent it.

Why not just be honest from the start?

Say I really can't stand the opera. You

go. You have a nice time. Let me know

what it's like. I think it's probably

our relationship is not needy.

So he doesn't need me. I don't need him.

We want to be together, but we don't

need to be together. I don't need to

know where he is every minute of the

day. I don't need to know what his

thoughts are on every single thing or

everything I do. I think if he could

have me a little bit more needy,

probably would. But he knows that I'm

very self-sufficient and don't need much

from anyone. Um, and I think that's

again going from boarding school where

you're very much on your own. you like

your own company, but we we don't we

don't there's not a neediness in the

relationship where uh I say to him, "Oh,

I've been invited to go um to to

Buckingham Palace for um dinner with the

queen." And it's a white t. I'm not

going to that. I'm not a white tie. I'm

not getting a white tie. And he won't

come. Like he's not if he doesn't want

to come to anything, he won't come. Uh

and I'll say, "Oh, I've got this, you

know, thing. Do you fancy doing that?"

He'll say, "No, definitely not." or

he'll say, "Should we I fancy doing

this?" And I'll say, "No, I don't want

to do that." So, we we very candid with

each other and it works for us.

This is the single biggest mistake I

made at the start of my relationship and

me and my girlfriend had a conversation

and we discussed it was I was saying yes

too much to things to try and please

because you feel like that's what's

needed. Whereas I came to learn over the

years, and I literally had this

conversation with my girlfriend over the

last month, that in fact, I need to just

be honest more regardless of how I think

it might impact her

because you see, you're saying yes when

you really want to say no.

Yeah.

And then you've got this sort of

underlying resentment. And it's much

better to just say no and suffer the

consequences.

Yeah, definitely.

Versus forever. Because as you say with

the opera, I then have to try and live

out this life forever.

Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's

important to have your own space and

your own friends and do your own thing.

Um, you know, you're married, but you're

not joined at the hip. And there's of

course there has to be a level of mutual

respect there and and honesty and trust

and all of those things. That goes

without saying, but you're not the same

person. And it is okay to have different

interests and it is okay. My husband is

a gym bunny. He's professional athlete.

He's at the gym morning, noon, and

night. I could not think of anything I'd

rather do less. As you can see, I'm not

a gym bunny. I don't go to the gym. I

got no desire to go to the gym.

This is I'm going to the gym. Yeah, bye.

And that's it. Uh, and I say I'm going

to a board meeting like, "Yeah, bye."

Like, he couldn't think of anything he'd

rather do less. But it's we respect each

other's space and views and ideas and we

don't have to debate every last thing or

every last decision. Um, and

everything's okay. Like we we don't

worry about anything. We don't not say

we don't worry about anything. We don't

sweat about stuff.

Uh, you know, I don't care if he doesn't

pick up his socks.

Interesting. [laughter]

The whole world is not going to stop

because they've picked up your socks.

But the I tell you what really is

important in a relationship

is understanding when other people are

under pressure and being there for them.

And I don't mean being in there with

them, but I mean just being there for

them and doing the things that really

matter to them as opposed to big

romantic gestures. I can't I mean I'm

not a flower person. I don't

particularly like flowers. If someone

bought me flowers, it's okay, but I'm

not a big I don't need flowers. But my

husband used to fill my car up with

petrol, so it was one less thing I had

to worry about. And it's small things

like that that build a foundation

because you know that person's there for

you even though it's not a big romantic

gesture that the whole world can see cuz

that's really not very important to me.

Have you ever done the love languages

test thing?

No, I don't even know what it is.

So I'm not into this kind of woothing

thing but this is actually quite

from just 17 magazine or something. I I

[laughter] don't even know what it is,

but it's probably it's a series of

questions which try to understand how

the the type of love indicator that you

most appreciate and it tends to be the

case that busy entrepreneurial people

their their love language is and as is

mine is acts of service and it's exactly

what you've described the tiny little

thing to help in a moment. So like

helping you pack your luggage when they

know you're traveling

or just doing that tiny and for me when

I did I did the survey with my

girlfriend I'll send it to you. Mine was

acts of service for me. The most

meaningful thing someone can do for me

in a relationship is exactly what you

said is like

help me with a tiny thing that you know.

Yeah.

But is his sort of love language per se

the same? Some people say is like touch,

words of affirmation, acts of service or

gifts is one of them.

I think you take any of the above.

Oh, really? [laughter]

Does he get it?

Yes, he does. No, we we uh I think for

us the most important thing for us is

having a laugh, having lots of family

and friends that we enjoy their company

with. And you know, it's interesting.

Lots of couples have been married a long

time. They need lots of people around

them to break up. You know, they have

lots of friends over, lots of do lots of

things, big parties and stuff like that.

I'll tell you the one thing he does for

me every day without fail is um he takes

the dog for a walk which is very

important and he picks up a coffee and

he brings it straight to me and that

because he knows I cannot start my day

without without a coffee and that's his

big love moment every day.

Is there a need to maintain desire when

you're sort of two almost three decades

into your relationship? Is there things

to do? Is there a strategy to keep it?

This is the wrong podcast. [laughter]

Okay. Different shades as the CEO.

Exactly.

Okay. Is that the answer? You should

follow [laughter] your arms.

Do you know Do you know what I mean?

Date nights. I don't know. Is there

something that I should be thinking

about when I get

Well, you I think from our point of

view, our kids are grown up, so every

night's a date night for us. But I think

doing things that are different and

unusual. I mean we went on this

fantastic tour of Thailand where we went

all over did really crazy wonderful

things that were were really good fun.

So we try and do more experienceled

things but equally we are you know we

are prepared to go in our tracksuits and

go out to the pub. Um I mean I guess our

happy place if I have to think about

happy place is Soho Farmhouse. It's a

real happy place for us and we tend to

try and go one weekend a month um and we

spend two nights and really don't do

anything. Take the dog on long walks,

have loads to drink, watch a film, go

out, eat lots of food, just relax.

One thing you've never I've never seen

you talk about from from all that I read

is mental health, your own mental

health. This is kind of a a fairly new

conversation that's happened in the last

10 years. But have you had experiences

with things like anxiety or depression

within your own sort of mental health?

No, I haven't. Uh maybe I have, but I

just haven't focused on it or haven't

really thought about it. I think we all

have bad days, don't we? Where we're

sort of more snappy than than others and

days were really good. I started HRT

recently and I found myself singing in

the kitchen the other day, which is

something I don't think I've ever done.

And I was like, Christ, this stuff's

working. [laughter]

So, but no, I have this resilience from

this, you know, from my very early age

to be able to put things to one side and

focus on what needs to be done and not

really worry too much about it, which is

probably both a blessing and a curse.

And you do you describe yourself I was

reading one of your books. Do you

describe yourself as a feminist?

Definitely.

Yeah. And what does that mean to you?

To me, it means equality. It doesn't

mean wanting more than men. It doesn't

mean disliking men. It just means that

women's rights should be equal to men's.

It has been stigmatized, hasn't it, that

the word feminism. It's this kind of

like I feel like it's become a little

bit of a well, the stigma is it's kind

of this anti-man

rhetoric. Whereas really, I think men

should be feel like they're feminists,

too.

Definitely. every every man has a mother

um has an aunt has a sister has a cousin

has a female in his life that should

want them to be treated equally. I mean

it's a it's a truth for for every pound

a man makes a woman makes 86p and it's

going to take a hundred years to close

that gap and you get into industries

like finance you know that gap is is

much bigger than that so it's just about

equality it's about not being

discriminated against because you're a

woman not being paid less because you're

a woman not being able to earn your

worth because you're a woman that's what

it means to me

as we look forward at the future you've

achieved so so much in your life in your

career It seems like from what you cuz

you said earlier on that you weren't

ambitious when you seems like you've