when you look at the different physical

activities or exercise and and how they

affect the brain. Different types of

exercise affect the brain differently.

So you certainly need a smorggas board

of all of them to kind of get global

support for the brain. But something

that seems to be particularly beneficial

is coordinates of exercise or open skill

exercise. You plus or minus things that

have a navigational component.

And these are essentially

sports or activities where you're

constantly having to respond to the

environment and adapt. That's what makes

them open skill rather than closed skill

or unimodal exercise like going for a

jog or sitting on a bike or something

like that.

>> Mhm. So when they compare

sports or activities that have the same

amount of physical challenge but a

different amount of cognitive challenge

because of the open skill nature, you

see greater benefits in terms of brain

structure, improvements in cognitive

function.

>> And open skill just means high level of

unanticipated variety or variety. What

does that mean?

>> Both. It basically has a greater amount

of complex motor skill required. Some of

it can be learned. So dancing is one

example, right? So because you you learn

the steps of a dance,

>> single strongest activity for dementia

prevention. Am I overstepping there?

>> Yeah, probably. If you look at physical

activity and the effect that it has on

cognitive function and also mental

health

>> or one of the stronger.

>> Yeah. But in terms of both mental

health, so studies in depression as well

as studies looking at different

activities that people do and their risk

of dementia and studies where they

randomize people to different types of

activity including dance. Dance seems to

have the highest sort of effect size.

>> Mhm.

>> Compared to other types of physical

activity, but there's multiple

components to dance, right? So you have

to learn the steps, but there's also a

social component, there's a music

component, right? All these things are

probably like part of the magic source

together. But open skill sports also

include, you know, board sports or ball

sports or team sports where you're

having to like react to the environment

and other people around you. Do you say

bull sports like rodeo? What are we

talking?

>> Ball sport. B A L L. Oh, okay.

It's not going to be good for the TBI to

get people on top of bulls, but Okay,

got it. Although, I think bull sports

would probably be good if you could

avoid the TBI. actually probably right

up there. Similarly, martial arts also

good as long as you don't get punched in

the head a bunch or kicked in the head a

bunch

>> or choked out too much

>> or choked out too much.

>> Beyond the physical strain that these

exercises have, they seem to have an

additional aspect of, you know,

requiring reaction speed,

>> challenging processing speed, learned

complex motor skills, they seem to have

an outsized effect in terms of cognitive

function. Yeah. something else. This is

kind of an aside, but just based on the

the physical activity component when

you're looking at so more aerobic or you

know even like close skill unimodal

running cycling kind of sports the

benefit seems to be intensity dependent.

So yes, if you're not doing anything

then going for a walk and walking a

certain number of steps a day is going

to be great beneficial decrease dementia

risk absolutely but looking at

hypocample structure and function for

instance which you mentioned right

you're talking about measuring your you

know measuring your hippocampus on an

MRI scan higher intensity activities

seem to be better probably the longest

study where they ever did something like

this this was an Australian study where

they had people do the Norwegian 4x4

protocol three times a week for several

months

Oh my god. And so for anybody who

doesn't know what this involves, it's

four sets of 4 minutes on a treadmill at

85 to 95% of your maximum heart rate

with 4 minutes rest. You do that four

times. It is miserable.

>> I mean, that's like pretend like you're

being chased by wolves through the snow

for 4 minutes and then take a 4-minute

rest

>> and then doing it again.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Four times,

>> right? But they saw significant

improvements in hypocample structure and

function that were maintained for

several years after the end of the

trial.

>> Several years.

>> Several years after the trial.

>> So a few months. Yeah.

>> And then sustained for several years.

>> Yeah. I think they followed them up for

5 years after the end of the trial.

>> That makes it much more interesting.

>> I think a lot of this is driven by

lactate.

>> Mhm. When we talk about the various

things that support the brain through

exercise,

we often talk about BDNF, brain derived

neurotrphic factor, which is increased

with exercise.

>> Mhm.

>> But the BDNF that you produce that you

can measure in the blood that's produced

by the muscles during exercise doesn't

really get into the brain very readily.

Most of the BDNF we have in the brain is

produced locally and it's actually

driven by things like lactate. So

lactate does get into the brain. The

more lactate you have in the blood, the

more gets into the brain and then that

acts as a histone dicessel inhibitor

that activates the blood of BDNF.

Ketones do the same thing. Osteocalin

which is released when we sort of load

the bones structurally, right, is

released from bones seems to do

something similar. So generating lactate

seems to be beneficial because probably

because one of the things it's doing is

it's generating more BDNF

>> that then is associated with

improvements in hypocample structure and

function. So, as long as you're doing

sports that have some high degree of

intensity, so you're regularly producing

lactate and then either in the same

sport or separately doing these sort of

high skill, high reaction time, open

skill kind of sports, that's probably

going to be beneficial from a exercise

standpoint.

>> I'm still completely stuck on the three

times a week basically V2 max training,

right?

>> Yeah. for a few months. Is a few months

like three or four months or how many

months was it?

>> The study was either six or 12 months. I

can't remember the the intervention

period. It was one or the other.

>> And with durable effects over a

follow-up period of

>> 5 years,

>> 5 years or something like that. Like

that is a great investment.

>> That makes it a much more compelling

sales pitch for me. And like I've done

plenty of V2 max training in the past,

but like it's not necessarily fun,

right? No. I mean, I will say if you can

again avoid getting your arm snapped,

exhibit A right here with my elbow

surgery. But if you can avoid the

breaking limbs and getting choked out

too frequently,

>> yeah,

>> something like jiu-jitsu, right, is is

actually fantastic because you might

have 3 to 5 minute rounds and then you

take a break for a round and then you go

back in and chances are depending on who

you're rolling with, it's going to be

pretty intense. Obviously depends on how

competitive the gym is, but the

durability is just remarkable. That is

really, really, really, really

interesting. Now, is the threshold for

sufficient intensity? I imagine it

varies tremendously from person to

person depending on lactate threshold,

right?

>> Yeah. But like for you, do you need to

do something approaching the Norwegian

4x4

to

cross the threshold sufficiently in your

mind or does something less suffice?

>> The problem with having just one I mean

it's one very good study but just having

one study on this is that we get really

focused on the protocol. But I think

that anything that is regularly

producing

you're getting above your lactate

threshold you're generating significant

you know several millles of lactate

>> I don't think people need to measure it

but you know if you're getting 6 7 plus

something like that right you're

definitely going to be in that range

>> is there something like a people use a

talk test for instance Peter Tia talks

about this for zone 2 training where you

can kind of have a conversation and be

labored short senses, but you don't

really feel like it as an indicator that

you may be roughly sort of in zone 2. Is

there an equivalent for that range of

lactate?

>> Not that I know of.

>> 10% from puking into a bucket.

>> Yeah, it's definitely going to be misery

related. So, if I think about a lot of

the training that I did as a student, I

was a rower, right?

>> Oh, brutal. You love misery. I don't

love misery enough, which is why

probably why I wasn't as good a rower as

I could have been. But there are lots of

protocols where you're doing relatively

short sprints with relatively long rest

periods that still generate large

amounts of lactate. Mhm.

>> And so in studies where they've done

this, you know, you're talking like 30

seconds flat out on a bike or a rowing

machine with several minutes of rest

times 6 8 10 rounds by the end, right?

You can generate a lot of lactate

without having to do something

continuously for, you know, several

minutes at a time. I think I was just

reading that one of the favorite

training protocols for one of the like

world champion rowers was 45 seconds. I

mean flat out like completely flat out

on the rowing machine within 6 minutes

of recovery but doing that you know

several times and then at the end right

you're generating several mill of

lactate. So I think anything like that

that's going to get you in that zone. It

just requires you know maximum effort

for even just like 20 to 40 something

seconds even with several minutes break

in between you're going to be hitting

that.

>> So I imagine the gold standard you have

some guy in a lab coat with a clipboard

who pricks your finger or something and

does these blood draws to determine the

millolar concentration of lactate. Is

there a breathable option as there is

with ketones, right, where you can

measure acetone through something that

looks like a breathalyzer as opposed to

a finger brick for BHB. Does anything

like that exist?

>> No. They're working on continuous

lactate monitors. Some people do sort of

have those. They're near being

commercially available, so some people

do have access to those already.

>> But equally, I would argue that it

doesn't matter that much. just like go

and do something really really hard for

a short period of time and do that a few

times over and do that relatively

regularly. Like that's probably enough

majoring in the minors that you need to

do to kind of get get that benefit.

Sounds like my sled assignment. I do

love my sled pushing and pulling. You

can definitely wipe yourself out with

that stuff. Okay. All right. Without

necessarily the impact of me trying to

run from wolves on a treadmill or

something.