president Trump was threatening personal

and political retaliation because they

tried to help Harris get elected do you

think you'll be penalized yes and Direct

on you and direct me you're not planning

on leaving the US are

you um Reed Hoffman is the co-founder of

LinkedIn and one of the world's most

successful entrepreneurs playing pivotal

roles in the success of influential

companies including PayPal Airbnb

Facebook and open Ai and now he is a

leading voice in AI helping people

utilize this new technology to empower

themselves in their life and careers you

were part of what they call the PayPal

Mafia who went on to create Tesla

YouTube Reddit SpaceX LinkedIn and

become multi-billionaires and so I've

got so many questions let's do it what

are the key factors of a great

entrepreneur's mindset one is you have

to understand that you don't get to an

optimistic future by trying to avoid

failure when we started LinkedIn

everyone said this won't work but just

because you don't have a 100% chance of

succeeding doesn't mean that you

shouldn't do it but there's also a set

of skills that are rare that you can

actually teach to entrepreneurs makes

you much more likely to be successful

the first is and then how do you know

when to quit the job what's your view on

work life balance and if you were

advising anyone to build wealth in 2025

what would you say here's some simple

tips one is Reed what is your take on AI

it gives us super powers now there will

be costs to it but like electricity it

does electrocute people but it's

essential for human society and is there

anything that the average person should

be doing to capitalize on the

opportunity that AI presents 100% this

is what you do so

this has always blown my mind a little

bit 53% of you that listen to the show

regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

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before we start if you like the show and

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much

[Music]

read as I read through your life it's

remarkable in it's almost impossible

that one individual could be involved in

so many companies that have had such a

big impact on

society but at the same time someone

would be able to seemingly see the

future over and over and over and over

again so because as I read through your

life I thought this can't be one

individual this can't be one lifetime it

it begs the question to me what is in

your view the causal factors that set

you up for such a

life well that's interesting I've never

been asked that question before

um probably it's a

combination of the fact that my passion

is who are we as human beings and where

are we going so like that's from from a

very young age like I've been like and I

think I got it by reading science

fiction right this kind of like what is

the scope of humanity like you know

Isaac asimov's foundation and you know

this kind of stuff and then

um I ended up growing up I was born in

the Stanford hospital I ended up growing

up in Silicon Valley and and so I got

the exposure to technology can change

the world and so focusing on thinking

about you know kind of this intersection

of humanity and technology and of course

obviously science fiction has some play

to that too although most the technology

in science fiction is just fiction right

just like we have wormholes and we do

Intergalactic travel it's like as far as

we know there is no such thing as

wormholes for Intergalactic travel right

I mean all current contemporary Theory

of physics would suggest that there

isn't I mean there may be wormholes but

they're not for you know put your Star

Trek spaceship in it and go somewhere

and then probably the other part of it

is um I played a lot of board games when

I was kid and so it gave me a very deep

sense of strategy and so approaching

life yeah exact wow this one here you

probably remember this yes I do remember

that right in the names on the cover

Borderlands what age were you when you

started playing Rune Quest you were very

young uh when I started playing Rune

Quest

probably

10 and what is the link between the life

you lived in the board games you played

as a 10-year-old um well mostly as a

function again like the role playing

games is like strategy right so it's

kind of um you know how do you uh kind

of think about like uh like an adventure

is both a narrative experience but it's

also a strategic experience like you

know how do you save the town from the

from the you know the bandits you know

that kind of thing and so um so it gave

me a deep sense of kind of like how do

strategy and tactics and problem solving

um and how do you do it as a group

right because you know in fantasy role

playing games it tends to be you know

especially when I was doing it as a kid

a set of blos around the table uh I hear

it's now a little bit more gender Balan

which is good and especially especially

for the blos it's like oh we're not

we're not just Geeks by ourselves here

right um and um and so and the way that

I got to doing this is I was enough

because this is kind of the focused you

know kind of kid I was is what I um I'd

heard that the chaosium had their

offices were were down the street from a

friend of minees and so I literally

walked in the door and started hanging

out at their office and they're the

maker of this game they're maker of this

game the chief editor I think wanted to

get me out of the office so he said he

handed me the pre the the in development

draft of this and said here go look at

this and so I took it home as an

obsessive kid I I like redlined it I

worked my way through it and I brought

it back like he gave me a Friday and I

brought it back on Monday so he failed

on his get this kid out of the office

mission right but he's he was then and I

I I still remember this look of vague

irritation when I handed him this

because he's like ah this kid is handing

me this thing oh [ __ ] I don't want to be

a meany guy and then he started looking

at it and went oh this is actually good

work and it was like I want to use this

work and I was a kid so I didn't

understand he needed to pay me to use it

I was that wasn't why I was just doing

it because I wanted to show that I that

I knew how to do this stuff and so he

then wrote me a check um so it was my

like my very first paycheck to to be

able to to use the work in the

publication um because you know this is

how copyright that that means he then

owns all the work that I did so he could

publish it and is your work still in

here today yes uhuh so edits that you

made to this game are still in here at

what age uh that was 12 wow that's

incredible and how much did he pay you

oh it's like $160 or something it's not

bad for 12-year-old no no no my dad my

dad was originally opposed to Fantasy

role play games it was like uh what what

are you doing like you know go like be

on a path to a real life and then when I

brought home the paycheck I like well

maybe that

works and what was your what were your

dreams at that age what did you think

you were going to be when you were older

sort of 12 13 14 years old frankly I had

no idea other than the following

entertaining thing which is since both

my mother and father are lawyers when I

was asked when I was 12 what I wanted to

be when I grew up the answer was not a

lawyer really yes well because

lawyers um look obviously bunch of are

barister the side of the pond um lawyers

are essentially modern Gladiators who

are paid to be the Gladiator of whatever

their paycheck is whether it's a client

or whether it's you know being a

full-time employee and so forth and it's

quality work it's important for society

but like I was like no no I want to

create things I don't want to be a you

know you know belt on my sword and you

know go to verbal battle for you know

whatever the you know contract or or

litigation or any of those things and I

was like no no no I I actually want to

go build things and so I didn't know

what I wanted

to be when I grew up other than and

maybe I still don't know right um but

what I evolve to is I normally have

about a two to three year plan that's

iterating right and that's that's tends

to be what I do and being born at

Stanford hospital is pertinent as well I

don't think people in the UK and around

the world necessarily know the

significance of that yeah but can you

explain why that's important Silicon

Valley um is a it's a network of a

generative platform so like one of the

things that that I have learned to think

about is networks amplify productivity

that's not just as we get to you know

why it is i f i conceptualized and

founded LinkedIn but but it's think in

terms of networks it's one of the

reasons why cities are such uh engines

like basically if you really look at

economies it's city regions and U it's

because the city region creates a

network right it's a network of could be

suppliers and all the rest but also

talent and capital and and and and

knowledge and communication and and

strategic lenses onto the world and so

Silicon Valley has been an like like

people go oh I'm a genius it's like no

no I'm in Silicon Valley right and that

really helps and so being born in

Stanford gave me this a set of different

you know kind of perspectives one

technology is a lens into the uh future

another one is as an individual you can

go create a technology or technology

company that can be a lever that can

move the world right and that an

individual you know from anywhere can

kind of do that um and all of those

things were were part of the luck of

being born in

Stanford the luck yes well I don't

choose you don't choose where you're

born but a lot of people were born there

and they didn't go on to do the things

that you did people like to tell stories

of manifest destiny it's because I am

great it I would have been great

anywhere that I was right and it's self-

delusional I mean yes I think I'm smart

yes I think I'm hardworking yes I think

I'm strategic yes I think I have skills

that are rare in in in human condition

but any great achievement also has luck

right and and I can point it in any

companies I can point it at any

individuals um and for example one of

the basic luck is like I had exposure

and connection to Silicon Valley if I

didn't have that the technology Destiny

or the technology achievements I've done

wouldn't have been able to do those or

wouldn't have been able to do those the

amazing way that I did them

so what would you say then because

there's people that listen to the show

all around the world um I we just

Spotify rap just came out and globally

we have quite an extensive audience it's

funny it's funny that it's so globally

distributed but I think a factor of

being on YouTube and speaking English

what would you say to people that are

born in we've got an audience in Cape

Town in Indonesia in Australia New

Zealand what would you say to people in

those parts of the world can you still

be quot unquote massively successful yes

but but you have to think so um and I

see you have a few of my books there um

my very first book the startup review um

which um came from the commencement

speech I gave at my high school the

Putney School in Vermont because I was

like what do I say to a bunch of 17y

olds right and I was like well be the

entrepreneur of your own life and what

that means there's a chapter in there

that

says uh uh the bad advice you're usually

given is just follow your passion and

the problem is the passion your passion

might be very passionate but does do you

have a strategic Advantage there is that

something you can do and so applying the

rules of Entrepreneurship yes of course

you have to be passionate about what

you're doing because if you're not

passionate you can never be world class

unless you're passionate about what

you're doing but that's not the only

thing and so you look at okay what are

Market realities what's the market what

does a competition look like and within

those what can your aspirations be and

there's a whole chapter on that in that

book because that's by the way similar

to how you plot out if you're founding a

company right if you're founding a

company you have to think the same way

about this but think about it as an

individual so if you're in Cape Town

there are many great things you can do

now if you say what I'm going to do is

create a search company to compete with

Google ah don't do that I mean unless

you really have some real unique thing

because remember you're competing with

this intensely powerful not just the

company but the network of Silicon

Valley which attracts amazing talent

from around the world Capital knowledge

and they're all sharing it with each

other at a very fast clock speed and so

wherever you are that doesn't work now

you do think about okay what can the

thing I do so for example um you know on

I love podcasts as you know I you know

Master scale possible Etc and so I had

the Delight of of um of doing like

interviews with Toby lutka right or

Daniel a and what you do is you look at

part of their success Shopify you know

Spotify is is what how do I run my

strategy from here like how is it that

I'm

competitive and and can win a global

field Marketplace that Silicon Valley

doesn't do and so for example one of the

things that they're different in the

cases because like for example in

Spotify that was hey I can get the

record labels to give me a chance to

start doing the business by doing just

Scandinavia prove it and then expand it

whereas those record labels the capital

to do it in the US would never happen

and hence you have Spotify and in

Shopify it's hey the silkon valley tends

to go oh e-commerce is over its own by

Amazon we're not going to do any of that

as a platform maybe you know this thing

or that thing but we're not going to do

it as a platform well but they're wrong

and I can do a long place and then once

I get to this network effect of a whole

bunch of you know small and medium

businesses doing their own you know kind

of websites in e-commerce then I am the

plat for that so it's kind of a long

under the radar strategy where you're

not directly competing with Silicon

Valley companies and by the time the

sellon value companies go oh there's a

Manor opportunity you've got it so those

are plays that you can do if you're

smart and strategic but you have to know

like uh Toby lutka um like is deeply

informed what what's going on in Silicon

Valley like when he's charting a

strategy he's aware of that he's got

connections he visits I mean I'm a

friend of his right and um and that's

part of like if you're doing a global

software

play you have to be aware that your

competition is global there's an element

of self-awareness required here yeah and

it's funny because when I was younger I

certainly didn't have that

self-awareness I thought that I could

start a social network from my bedroom

without ever doing it before and I

wasn't necessarily thinking about the

geographical situation or Silicon Valley

um how important is self-awareness as an

entrepreneur and how does one cultivate

it to know what they what challenge is

actually befitting of their skills so I

think um self-awareness is generally a

very good thing for all human beings um

and um you still have to be irrationally

ambitious which is I think very

important and so sometimes

self-awareness and and just you know uh

immense ambition sometimes don't go

together it's better when they do but

that's fine what you do have to do is be

very aware of what your competitive

space looks like right so just about

everybody who succeeds in substantive in

a substantial way is good at being

competitive right and and you if you're

blind to your

competition H you're kind of hosed if

you're successful it's just because

you're lucky right because uh and that's

part of what I was referring to earlier

in luck if you if you start a business

where you have the luck where

competitors haven't haven't identified

it haven't gotten you get a long head

start on it that's an instance of luck

not all the successful companies are

that way but that's very that that can

be very good and very useful on that um

but you have to be very aware of what

the competitive landscape looks like now

that's also true of individuals right um

because it's like well who am I

competing against is a relevant question

but it's uh you can be kind of

competitively blind as an individual

and still be very successful because of

the way it works but if you're

competitive blind leading a business

leading a

startup almost always that's hosed right

that's one of the reasons why like you

know the all investors in Silicon Valley

always ask about your competition and if

you say I don't have any competition

you're like well if they disagree with

you they're not going to invest because

they go you're competitively

blind is there any such thing as an

entrepreneur in the sense of you know

people always ask me they say can anyone

be an entrepreneur and a founder and

there's so many different types of

companies one can start these days that

it's a quite tricky question to answer

but do you think any because there's

going to be people listening to this now

that are in they're managers in

companies they're you know they're

they're working in a law firm or

whatever and maybe they've got an idea I

mean everyone's got an idea and they

don't know if they're the type of person

that should pursue it or not is there a

framework one can run through run

through to decide that yeah I'll run

through a framework to help the folks

the um the short answer is no not

everyone should be an entrepreneur just

like not everyone should try to be a

professional mus musician not everyone

should try to be an athlete not everyone

should be you have to look at what your

competitive advantages are and does

your disposition skill sets path give

you a Competitive Edge in this case of

being an entrepreneur right because any

game that's competitive right and

Entrepreneurship is a highly competitive

game that's that's part of the you know

it's as competitive is trying to become

you know a uh a globally renowned actor

it's as competitive as trying to become

the CEO of a major bank or anything else

so it's it's a competitive

game so for an entrepreneur what you

have to do is you have to say okay well

um I have to be uh able one of the

classic ones to uh to take substantial

risks now it's not being risk blind

Entre rurs are actually not risk blind

or occasionally they are and

occasionally they're lucky and it works

but almost all the successful ones

realize that I'm that when you start a

company you're default debt right by

default the company is out of business

right and so you're trying to get to a

point where it's default alive versus

default dead then there's a whole bunch

of different things that go into that

game so one is um well can you go get

the capital um are you in in a market

that allow you to get the capital um can

you move to a market that allows you to

get the capital um how do you pitch the

capital how does pitching Capital go and

then you get this this kind of flywheel

going between you know Capital um Talent

uh business realization Capital Talent

right and you're doing that and the

business realization obviously includes

customers includes go to market includes

building products and services Etc and

by the way it's Dynam so you say well I

wouldn't worked at a large company and I

learned a bunch of things like well yeah

but you didn't learn how your default

dead you didn't learn how to launch a

new product you didn't learn how to how

do you start with a small product and

grow to a larger product right you

didn't learn how do you set up a team

from scratch and by the way a team from

scratch when the vast majority of human

beings like more certainty in what their

week looks like right like I'm going to

come work at a place because I can

continue to work at a place and as long

long as I'm capable of what I'm doing I

keep my job right in terms of what I'm

doing and so I understand the certainty

so so entrepreneurs have to do all that

sort of thing so in addition to kind of

risk taking you have to be good at

bringing many resources from different

uh vectors into your vision and working

with you so there's investors there's

employees there's customers there's

advisors there's Partners you have to

bring the right set of those people

along with you in this iterative this

this kind of you know iterative Journey

um you have to be able to grow yourself

and learn because the game changes um

like one of the metaphors I use to to to

train and and conceptualize young

entrepreneurs is kind and there's a

bunch of different parallels between

military strategy it's part of like the

board games thing and and and business

strategy but it's like Marines take the

beach army takes the country police

governs the country three three very

crude broad generalizations about how

you do it so you go what's your Marine

strategy do you have because you must as

a C Series a you must have a good

strategy how you get on the beach how

you get you know initial product Market

fit how you're heading towards scale

product Market fit okay you're there how

do you win the country right the market

right what how do you get to scale

product Market fit how is that going to

work how are you going to play against

competition different in these two how

do you get up to scale you have to learn

this game is different than this game

right and you're learning new things as

you're doing it so you have to have this

kind of um what I refer to as being an

infinite learner like you're learning

what the new game is because by the way

no entrepreneur shows up at door one at

day one going well I know how to do

marketing I know how to do sales I know

how to do uh product development I know

how to do engineering I know how to do

engineering operations I know how like

no no no you have to bring all that in

you to be learning what you need to

learn in order to do that through that

and and and and that's part of how you

you grow into that and then by the way

once you you've established a business

because the thing another thing that

brings in a lot of competition is people

say oh that's a valuable business I'd

like to possibly that and then you then

a new generation of heavy competitors

come in so can you can you kind of keep

your position and grow your position in

a market which is the police part right

the police part yes exactly and so so

you have to you have to look and each of

these three is different games and

there's more games than that but it's a

a way of kind of Simply understanding

that so uh always being learning being

an infinite learner and changing your

mindset and so frequently like for

example when I'm talking to an

entrepreneur

um especially the first few times is I

will push them on their Vision to see if

their Learners now one they should have

persistence and grit because like no

I've thought about this I've got a good

plan this is how I'm going to go to

market I understand what the competition

looks like because if they go oh you're

right I should totally change that

you're like okay you have to have some

grit and precis

but on the other hand if they're not

like going oh yeah no if we can counter

that yeah we'd have to do something

about that like if our competitor

started doing that and maybe we do this

right so they also are learning they

have flexibility so you want that

combination like one of the things about

startups is uh you have to um bring kind

of this dual lensed focus of things that

seemingly are a little contradictory so

like persistence flexibility another one

is right now now long term right now you

have to do right now but if you don't

have a long term of how you're building

something that's insanely ambitious no

you're never going to get there if if if

you shoot for the hillside you're never

going to get to the moon you have to

shoot for the moon so you're shooting

for the moon but it's me and my two

friends in a garage right now it's

interesting because the middle bit yes

does that matter it does but it's it's a

remember like the Marines Army police

yeah

Army when you're doing the Marines is

the middle bit right okay right right so

so it does but it's not by the way and

one of again mistakes and that's part of

the reason why there's another chapter

in Starview is abz planning the mistakes

is like you have a plan and then you

have a plan B it's like no no no you

have a plan and then you have a lot of

micr plan BS right so you're kind of

like well if that doesn't work then

let's try this if that doesn't work then

let's try this you know and and you're

iterating through them and when you know

to do a major pivot because by the way

many successful businesses also do major

pivots um PayPal started as encryption

on cell phones right that's that's where

it started right so you do major pivots

it's when you go

oh my current plan which I've iterated

for my first plan is worse than my first

plan like the market circumstances its

chance of

succeeding those are now worse mhm

that's when you think about okay let's

do a major pivot so with your analogy of

evading the beach how do you know what

beach to invade like how do you know if

you've got a good idea and how do you

know what a good idea is because most

people as I said listen to this they've

got a business idea yeah and they how do

they know if it's good and part of the

issue they often have is they've heard

anecdotally or they've seen that someone

else is already doing it so they go oh

gosh it's already been done yeah

there's call it two kinds of ideas is

and frankly by the way you think you

know there's over 8 billion people in

the world the fact that you think you're

the one person who thought of this idea

you may not be doing math well right um

so so thinking you're the one person

who's thought of the idea that's a

mistake right the question is are you

the person who can pull it together in

the

momentum and and pull it together and

it's still by the way that may be well

okay that gets down to 100 people okay

well am I the one who's in motion right

now am I the mo person who's willing to

take the risk quit my job and do it um

and you never really get down to one

right so so startups are risky

businesses like one of the things let's

get back to entrepreneurs like I think

the greatest chance and even when I was

starting LinkedIn after having started

social land after having you know uh

co-founded PayPal as a board member even

when I was starting LinkedIn what I

would tell the people like look we have

about a maximum of 20 25% chance of

being successful right just to be clear

right we're GNA try to grow that to 100%

right but but we're a couple people in a

garage right now right like there's all

kinds of things that can go wrong anyone

who's telling you it's 100% now they're

lying to themselves or they're lying to

you and and you know like I'm very

realist and ambitious in my strategy and

so so you you should never think you're

starting something 100% now within the

ideas you go there's roughly speaking

two kinds of ideas one kind of idea is

people generally think that's a good

idea they think it's a good idea because

you go to customers and customers say

yeah I'd like that right they go to they

go oh well hey AI is going to create a

whole bunch of new SAS businesses right

oh yeah that makes sense and new new

technology trans

transformation that or people in

e-commerce they're going to want buy

this kind of stuff okay you know makes

sense so there's a stack of things where

they're pretty measurable as ideas like

you can measure them with customers you

can you can you can do feedback and

polling and other kinds of things now

the good news there's good news bad news

on this category the good news is you

can drisk is there a market for your

idea mostly not not entirely but mostly

the bad news is so can a lot of other

people yeah right and so in this

category there always tends to be

competition and your competitive

strategy generally speaking needs to be

why against like in this category you

should be expecting competition why am I

going to win out sufficiently against

this competition in a global

Arena I have invested in those

businesses Greylock invests in a bunch

of those businesses because we do we're

you know one of the best VCS in

Enterprise on the planet you know blah

blah blah then um the other kind of I

thing which is the one I tend to start

and the one I tend to most invest in is

people think that you're uh that you're

crazy when you're starting your business

and by the way that can be a by the way

and frequently you are right yeah but

but people think you're crazy which

means most people think you're crazy

which means your competitive field is a

lot less right so for example I'll give

LinkedIn um as an example and I'll give

Airbnb as an example so l in um I go and

I say hey um individuals will join this

network and bring in their and establish

a public identity and profile and bring

in their Network and and use that even

as the vast majority of the billion

people register for LinkedIn are you

know basically work at companies right

they're not starting company like it's a

great platform for entrepreneurs

entrepreneurs get it right away but like

I'm like well I'm working in a company

is am I going to seem disloyal to my

company if I establish a profile here

you know cuz back back when we started

it like no one's going to use that why

well because like they're worried about

uh will their company fire them or not

give them a bonus or something else

because they have a LinkedIn profile

because they're saying they're dis oil

so it looks like they're shopping

because I mean for most people that use

LinkedIn now you don't see it as I'm

looking for another role exactly but

back then people do 2003 literally

everyone said to me this won't work

because you're individual focused you

need to be selling products to companies

okay right right and so I was like no no

I think I'm right about the way the

world can and should be right and um and

so uh I'm gonna take that risk and

that's the contrarian risk I'm gonna

take that risk and I'm gonna I'm gonna

play it forward and if I'm right I will

create something that will transform the

industry that will be amazing for

individuals amazing for companies Etc

and we can go obviously whatever length

you want to go through the LinkedIn

Journey we can do that now Airbnb is as

an investor example so Airbnb was my

first investment at Greylock and so and

I was at Greylock because David Z who

was my partner who was the Greylock

partner who was my most valuable board

member at LinkedIn convinced me that I

should do Venture AT Greylock and I'm

very close to David and so I bring in

Airbnb as an investment and David looks

across the table from me and says look

every VC has to have a deal they're

going to fail on Airbnb can be yours

really yes because arbnb at the time had

so little volume in its transactions

that the founders could have called

everyone who used Airbnb that week if

what they did is dedicated making phone

calls like you know five minutes of

phone call you know through the through

the week that was how small it was and

David's argument at the Greylock Round

Table was look this is very strange

staying in other people's houses you

know like the danger of something going

wrong um cities are going to hate it

hotel lobbies are going to try to Outlaw

it within cities You Know da like this

is just going to be a train wreck all

over the

place and I was like no but I want to

take the v he's like great like we hired

you as a partner we think you're smart

go ahead right now to David's credit six

months later the trend the transaction

volume in airbn is like this classic

hockey stick it was years a very small

and then it grew to being very big um so

the hockey stick hadn't started yet and

David came to me and said okay because

because like they always be learning is

also useful in Venture Capital he came

and said okay you were totally right

about Airbnb and I was I was totally

wrong what did you see that I didn't see

like how did you know when I was sitting

there blowing smoke at you saying this

is going to be a total failure you said

nope I'm I want to do this I said well

look you were right about all of the

risks about that could happen with

Airbnb you absolutely right any of those

things could have made the business

worth zero but this is the reason as

investors we do a portfolio because yes

Airbnb could be zero but if it worked it

was going to be huge right it was going

to transform an industry this is the

kind of investment I like doing as an

entrepreneur or as an investor and I

said look we had a plan for each of

those risks we had a plan a we had plans

B we're going to try to navigate it

isn't that we could guarantee

the risk but the fact that everyone else

saw those risks meant that we had years

of no competition that we could

establish the network we could establish

the marketplace and then once we're

there we are the marketplace for how

that works and that's the kind of

investment I like doing that's the same

thing with LinkedIn as I as I founded it

same thing with you know kind of uh with

Airbnb as an investment and so that

category of investment you cannot

validate with the customers I was going

to say so if everybody thinks it's a

good idea it's probably not a big idea

yes it it's much more challenging to be

a big idea

interesting really

interesting because it's funny because

when people pitch to you they say I've

asked everybody and everybody thinks

it's great yes so that's probably an

indicated that it's probably not big or

they bullshitting yes yes and I'm

looking for both in my creation of ideas

and in my funding of ideas it's not dumb

people who think it's a bad idea it's

smart people who think it's a bad idea

you want smart people to yes because

then you have something that's

contrarian because that's what contan

contrarian isn't I don't understand

technology at all and I think it's a

terrible idea it's like well who cares

you don't understand anything right it's

smart people who think it's a bad idea

right right and then you have a theory

of the game that's a good one not

perfect very risk can be very risky

about why they're

wrong so I'll give you the LinkedIn

example literally John Lily partner mind

gr I recruited him into Greylock later

he was the CEO of Milla that I was on

the board of super smart guy friend of

mine I sat down with him about LinkedIn

because this is how I go when I'm

starting a company I go to all my

smartest friends and I go here's what

I'm doing what's wrong with it I don't

want to have the conversation of them

going oh it's great useless doesn't help

me right what's wrong with it why will

this go why will this fail and so I sat

down with John we had breakfast at a at

a breakfast place in Silicon Valley I

said da and he said okay you you know

I'll I'm your friend you it's never

going to work right and I said okay well

why do you think it's never going to

work said well look you never grow the

network like the first person who comes

in no one else in the network not

valuable for me why should I invite

someone in until you have like you know

I don't know 500,000 people a million

people there's no value in the network

so there's zero value so it's never

going to grow you're never going to get

anywhere right and it was a very smart

perspicacious thought that was probably

the key thing for starting LinkedIn was

how do you get to millions of people in

the network because that's the only

place where the value proposition kicks

in right I knew that if you had a

thousand people come

in 900 of those people would be exactly

like John they' go huh I don't see

anyone else here in this network Etc but

I knew that some of them somewhere

between 10 and a hundred of them would

go oh I see what this could be and I

kind of want to play with it so you know

I'll invite Stephen I'll invite you know

I'll invite some people in and then as

it very slowly starts going then all of

a sudden there's enough people in it's

interesting it's curious and you could

grow to being valuable so I knew that

that by persistence through those

initial exploratory people people who

are curious people who want to

experiment with it people who got the

vision of it you know Etc ET but all of

that I could grow to your initial

critical mass and then it would kick in

the model of LinkedIn obviously I know

LinkedIn more today than I did back then

in what 19 no so 2002 2003 200 2003 and

then really got 2003 is when we turned

it on Wow and back then was it a social

network as it is now where there's a

news feed and people talking to each

other or was it more of a a public CV

was a public CV with a search capability

and ability to communicate with people

okay interesting so the network effects

were slightly less important than the

modeling is today because a lot of

people today using it not to search for

a job or a professional but to talk

about themselves or to share their life

Etc and we knew that we would get to

Growing Network fact like for example

Again part of the you know Marines Army

police is your network effects may very

much evolve you may start with no

network effects that's fine yeah but you

have a plan yes yeah yeah yeah so am I

right in thinking because around then

there were social networks emerging that

were very FOC focused on people

conversating with each other whereas

LinkedIn by design it didn't really

really matter if anybody was chatting to

you about what they ate for dinner that

day so a new network could penetrate the

market that was less dependent on the

like social networking component because

if I go on there and make a profile and

put my CV up it doesn't really matter if

I don't come back for four days exactly

because I can get an email that will

bring me back in saying oh there's a job

here but once my profile's up and ready

yes I'm now giving value to the rest of

the network just by being there yes and

that that's a virtue not a bug because

it was part of how we solved the

critical mass problem yeah I I could

never understand how LinkedIn did that

but now it makes sense to me yes because

I always think God building a social

network is just asking for like hell in

your life yeah well I'm kind of a

specialist yeah right uh you know uh one

of the First Investors in Facebook one

of the First Investors in frenster oh

right I didn't realize you were invest

in frenster as well yes you

were part of what they call the PayPal

Mafia I know you use a different term

Network it's it it's less it has less

Pizzazz but we weren't really a criminal

group but Mafia is cool as well yes yes

people people love the term Mafia and

through that time you worked with the

likes of Elon you knew Peter the from

your days at University

um I mean everybody asked this question

about

PayPal and why it was so successful but

also why so many of the alumni of PayPal

went on to become multi-billionaires I

think seven people that that were part

in that sort of part of that St sort of

early PayPal founding team went on to

create Tesla YouTube Reddit SpaceX

LinkedIn was it Talent density was it

was that what made the PayPal mafio well

it certainly was a component and so it's

it's it's it's a couple of things so one

um that high density Talent of folks who

are willing to take intensive risks

want to do contrarian things believe in

what their contrarian thing is against

Common Sense wisdom that's one part

another part is um when PayPal went

public it was one of it was a it was a

technology winter it was one of two

technology companies that went public

that year wow right so all of a sudden

and then got bought by eBay so all of a

sudden you had this talent group of

people that had a bunch of money in

their pockets and the Network within and

that believed in the consumer internet

so the network of Silicon Valley at that

point had thought the consumer internet

was played they were going into clean

tech and Enterprise so if you asked if

you try to Ping a venture capitalist but

I have a new consumer idea they wouldn't

even take a meeting with you they would

take a meeting if it was clean tech

they' take a meeting if it was

Enterprise software right now then you

get all the the the PayPal people coming

out going hey I can f my own initial

idea I've got this great idea YouTube

Right LinkedIn and I can fund it and I

can get it going and then and this is

part of the web 20 movement this is a i

i coined the term internet 20 and then

Tim uh O'Reilly uh made the much better

term web to right and

so the uh these folks going no no the

consumer internet is like that was just

the first wave on the beach the tsunami

is still coming right and so we were all

out investing and we were talking to

each other because frankly we're like

well these these VCS don't get it like

this is coming and then of course you

started seeing you know YouTube and you

started seeing LinkedIn and you started

seeing and it was like okay like we will

like these are important things that

we're going to invest in and that that's

that's part of the reason why the that's

the uh Because by the way remember you

know a bad competition

right that's one of the reasons why not

just Talent not just Capital but also

competitive steering as part of the

reason why the PayPal Network or PayPal

Mafia had such a massive uh Suite of

success you know I often Hazard a guess

that what the like the the fundamental

game of business is for a startup

founder and I've hazarded a guess before

that it's recruiting the best group of

people you possibly can binding them

with a culture that gets the best out of

them and setting them a vision that's

worthwhile but from reading your work

there's a couple of things just from

hearing you today sales is so like all

whatever your go to market is and it can

be sales be to be Enterprise Etc but

like for example in in social networks

it's usually a viral you know a viral

marketing or viral growth plan so when I

say sales I actually mean like selling

to oh yes employees 100% yes you must

you said like Partners investors yes cuz

you have to come come on board my vision

invest in my vision Because by the way a

partner when you're startup is also

investing in Your Vision yeah an

employee is investing your vision yeah

right how' you be good at

that there's a limited set of skills

that you can actually teach to

entrepreneurs versus the entrepreneurs

just learning by doing one of them is

pitching right one of them is

understanding the how do I communicate

my vision in a way that other people

cannot go that's really exciting I want

to join your vision with you and if I

was a young entrepreneur telling you

right I want to be better at pitching my

vision so I can get worldclass people to

join me worldclass investors Partners is

there any advice you could give me on

things I should and shouldn't do uh yeah

absolutely and by the way there's we

could spend the entire podcast only

doing this I mean there's there's a very

deep well but here's some simple tips so

one is the mistaken lesson that most

people learn is to try to do reality

Distortion it's like no no no no no uh

silicon chips to make ice cream shakes

it's the thing no one's thought of it

it's really big right and people like

okay what you're convincing me is you're

crazy right like you're literally like

please leave now yeah right so you have

to realize that all pitches are

dialogues right and you want to be

listening to smart people and you like

generally speaking everyone you want to

be recruiting you want to be recruiting

smart people you want the absolute best

talent working with you you want the

absolute best talent working in your

company you want the absolute best so

you want people who are who are

thoughtful and asking good questions

like for

example I pitch insanely aspirational

businesses but I don't pitch them saying

Oh LinkedIn is guaranteed to succeed

there's no Universe in which LinkedIn

won't be the Transformer of professional

work and careers what I do is say it can

get here like we have a real chance at

this now we have to navigate these risks

but if we navigate these risks we're

going to be here mhm right and then

people say ah you're credible you have a

huge Vision you're compelling I think

you can do this right and then they come

on board with you so one of it is to

pitch the huge Vision but show that

you're aware of the difficulties of

getting there right now you don't have

to go through all of them you just have

to go through enough of them or a big

enough one that the person goes okay

great I get it you're seeing it right

another part of it is to say this is

part of the reason why competition is

important is like I understand what game

I'm playing right here's my theory this

is what competition plays in this is why

I think the market will favor me this is

why I think technology Trends will favor

me this is why I think I have a very

unique Edge and you know in blit scaling

which I think is another book on your

thing uh most consumer internet plays

are uh what we call Glen Gary Glenn Ross

markets which is first prize the

Cadillac second prize steak knives and

third prizes you're fired so you have to

be pitching why you're possibly first

yeah right right because there's only

going to be a couple of winners yes and

so like this is why we can win right and

so um now there's also mechanics in

pitching which is you know how do you

tell a story of it part of the thing I

tell entrepreneurs is to even if the

person doesn't ask you the risk tell

them what the risks are and how you're

navigating them because it'll establish

trust right so like for example in in

pitching Investments now this I didn't

know until I started learning it in

terms of mechanic of pitching is and

entrepreneurs tend to go oh when I need

money is when I you know write up my

PowerPoint and I hit you know knock on

the door like hey give me some money

that's a foolish time to start the

conversation much better to start the

conversation when you're not saying give

me money so if you like as much as you

can in all of these things start the

conversation well before you're getting

to a

potential contract of any sort a

partnership or or a investment or even

an employment contract like so for

example always be recruiting doesn't

mean oh I want to hire you right now

it's like okay find great talent this is

one of the things I learned from social

lent and brought into PayPal find great

talent and start talking to them right

even if today you don't have the right

position to hire them right now

obviously there's a whole bunch of great

talent you could waste a whole bunch of

time you want to be talking to people

that

you know you either really would love

them to join at some point not too

distant future or they know other people

who would be like that because by the

way part of when you um when you meet

great talent you realize how to like

because because you're always you're

always adding new great talent you're

like oh my God we need people like this

how do we bring them in so for example

one of the things that I learned that

was you know from social net that I

brought to PayPal was at Social at I was

trying to hire people who had 10 plus

years experience doing the thing that we

were hiring them to do before because

the classic kind of wisdom that you get

from Business Schools is make sure they

have experience on their

CV look they have to be able to do the

job right no question but if you said

two years of experience and an insane

learning curve that's much better an

insane learning curve by that you means

someone that's rapidly learning self-

teing yes okay and learning on the job

and going and figuring it out and so

when I went to PayPal and I was I when

the company was founded I was on the

board of directors I was like this is

what you're looking for not this okay

right and so back to your like PayPal

Mafia question that's because we hired

those kind of people right interesting

there was a very limited set of people

in the company who had had more than a

couple years experience working within

payments within banking within you know

because it was the no know learning

curve when you look at your portfolio of

Investments and the entrepreneurs you

meet do you think young entrepreneurs

realize how significant hiring is to

their eventual outcome because they tend

to focus on like how good the product is

or sometimes Capital but I just looking

at my own portfolio I I often find

myself like feeling like an old man

because I'm telling them that like spend

more time hiring not just hiring your

friends because they're willing to come

work here yes aoxy for a Founder if

you're not spending a third of your time

hiring

you're very much underd delivering this

is the thing it's like look uh life is a

team sport companies are team sports

right if you could just do it yourself

you wouldn't hire anybody no you're

hiring people so like you say well I've

got a really good let's you know use a

European football analogy I've got a

really good Striker

great well we don't need to worry about

the halfbacks or defensive or you know

goalkeeper no no you have to hire all

things and you go well I'm a really good

halfback that's great you need the

others too I think when I was young when

I was 18 19 years old I somewhere in my

brain thought my outcomes were going to

be determined by how hard I worked and

how good my ideas were and it wasn't

until I accidentally hired someone

fantastic that I realized yes the

absolute tremendous impact that an a

player can have on everything yes and

that was just such a mental shift for me

yeah literally I think Zuckerberg puts

us in a very good way he wants to hire

people he would work for

and why why is that because that's a

demonstration of high Talent okay yeah

yeah when you're a young found you're

somewhat insecure though you think oh

God why would that person want to come

work here or I can't afford them or you

want to hire the best people you can and

by the way if you can hire people better

than you oh my God it makes you much

more likely to be successful yeah yeah

it's my experience that young Founders

don't really think about that because

they're also insecure so they think I

can't manage that person yeah well but

but your theory of management is look if

you're if you can hire someone where

your only management technique needs to

be let them

loose that's that that's

best like just

go right and is there any pra anything

practical about hiring you know people

say like hire slow Fire fast or uh other

sort of like cliche advice around hiring

that matters like how important is it

that they're culturally aligned or so

culture can matter um I would say look

in terms of and I hopefully it's not a

cliche but hopefully a puristic

principle um uh references are more

important than

interviews right we get a lot of

repetitive experience at being

compelling in an interview and if you

can't and by the way some great people

aren't compelling in interviews right

they're they're they're not really great

at selling themselves but oh my God are

they amazing in the field they're am

like an engineer like an engineer might

be like you like okay but oh my God can

they do great things mhm in which case

like like do whatever you can to hire

that person so if you if you ask me you

can only have references or only inter

interview 10 out of 10 times I'll take

the I'll hire the person on the

references you surely you're not talking

about the types of references where they

give you the references no no course not

no no and this is one of the features of

LinkedIn like you want to find

references that will give you um uh good

perspective now even if you can't go

find someone that you know or you have a

tie to or as what we refer to frequently

as an off-balance reference sheet e not

the one they give you to be a reference

so even if they say oh here's you know

I'm reading here's my reference you know

Bob or

Susan you call Bob or Susan and you say

this is a standard question I will use

all the time but especially if I'm

calling someone who's a given reference

say look I believe every every person is

a combination of strengths and

weaknesses and you don't give me a

weakness I will believe it's so bad that

I should not hire this

person right so if if you say there's no

weakness I'll just go okay I understand

I shouldn't hire this person thank you

very much right in that they will always

almost always give you

something right and you can think

because we are all combinations of

strengths and weaknesses like I'm one of

the best people to have on your side for

Creative strategic problem solving

like one of my employees once told me

he's like I would never hire you to run

a McDonald's I'm like I wouldn't hire me

to run a McDonald's either I'd be

terrible at it right so that's

combinations of strengths and weaknesses

right and so everyone has them there is

no one who is all strengths I mean

people tell themselves that but that's

self- delusion right and so so you have

that conversation with a reference and

the reference will tell you something

because because they're not used to

saying it so they might say oh you know

he um uh you know Susan or Bob they're a

perfectionist he like oh so they get

their work done slowly because they you

know like you know like you you push

them because they're trying to get the

one that's actually like more oh they

spend too much time working you're like

oh that means they're unintelligent

about how they do the work yeah right so

you can push them into where they're

like yeah like they can get a little

disorganized when they're stressed okay

great right and then you could that giv

you by the way because when you get that

from reference one then when you're

calling reference two you say oh I heard

that the person is disorganized like can

you tell me a little bit about

that right yeah got some ammo and they

can't then say Oh no I've never seen

that they'll probably give you a little

bit more context yes on all these great

people you've worked with specifically

you know you during that PayPal period

of your life one of the things I was

reflecting on is they're all

independently successful people but

they're all very different people

and that in and of itself is evidence

that there's not one version of success

there's many different types of success

presumably there's many different types

of entrepreneur leader yes give me a

flavor of the different types of

entrepreneurs you've worked with and and

and what you know because I I sat with

Walter isacson and he talked to me about

Steve Jobs Elon Musk Etc and he was like

Steve's really great at hiring people

elon's not as good as at the people team

building part but he's better at this

part yes so no

entrepreneur wins at every

game generally

speaking as an entrepreneur you should

try to win to to play the games that you

have a massive Competitive Edge on same

thing is true so some people for

example um uh like take an Neil busri at

workday right he is thoughtful

intentionally cultural building very

professional so it's a HR uh product for

work his contrarian idea was going the

cloud and the people were going to do

Cloud software um for the first I think

it was 500 people the workday hired he

would always do a cultural interview at

the end because to make sure that the

first 500 people all kind of shared

cultural things so once you get through

all the competence and all the rest of

the stuff he would make sure that was a

fit and that's part of how you get

cultural coherence that's like one

example right um another example um Elon

is the um like I have a big idea and I

convince myself 100% that it's

absolutely going to be the case like I

am going to settle Mars we're going to

terraform Mars in our lifetimes which is

no it's

impossible no no human being on the

planet including Elon is going to do

that within elon's Lifetime right but

I'm going to go all in I'm going to work

really hard I'm going to be

technologically sophisticated I'm going

to work work against the odds right in

order to make that work that's a you

know an Neil very professional

understands the workplace Mark Elon like

I think I was like the second person he

pitched SpaceX to and and his pitch

though to my defense was I'm gonna send

a turtle to Mars and I'm like that's not

a business and you're competing with

national governments and like Russian

subsidized rocket programs and so forth

this is not a good E I was wrong he was

right

right but there not a good Equity you

know kind of play he pitch at you as an

investor yes yeah right at what point

was SpaceX at when he pitched it it was

before he started it so it was an idea

yes and I'm GNA send a turtle to Mars

and then it became I'm going to send a

gelatinous cube with plant seeds in it

to Mars because they'll grow I'll be the

first person will send life to Mars and

you're like okay right what did you

think genuinely when he said that to you

I thought he'd gone off his rocker

really well yeah of course you would

yeah like someone's my friends said that

to me I think I'd make a couple of calls

just to check in you know what I mean

like youon doing okay just told me about

this Turtle he want yes it's like that's

not of

business has your opinion of him changed

over time in terms of his potential and

ability as an entrepreneur no no I've

always thought of him as one of the

world great entrepreneurs um always yeah

all all the way back to PayPal days

really yeah yeah yeah no look he has

done repetitively amazing things now he

pitches everything with the same level

of

certainty right like you know I have

this idea for online banking I have this

idea for boring tunnels under cities I

have this idea for creating a pneumatic

tube for hyperloop tube all of them he

has the same level of I am 1,000% right

that this is like guaranteed to be part

of the future right and I you know and I

may be the unique person to make it

happen right so you have to have some

discernment but he's his you know on Bas

batting is pretty

good for such major ideas but it's not

it's not 100% yeah people kind of excuse

that though if of course if you get if

you're if you get one that's big that's

fine right yeah on the hiring side has

he been is he up there with the best or

is he not a direct hirer of people like

Steve Jobs was um he hires well um

matter of fact you can't be a great

entrepreneur and not ultimately hire

well

mhm um I think some people are better

hirers some people

also

have like are the kind of people that

people would work for forever um

Elon uh tends to burn people out a lot

like there's lots of burnt out people in

his wake and when you go and talk to

those people what you hear is some

people say that was the best work

experience ever and I never want to work

for him again and other people say that

was the worst work work experience ever

and I never want to work for him again

so they're all I never want to work for

him again right so you know as kind of a

a dynamic because he basically looks at

them as disposable parts and you know go

as hard as you can right and then

afterwards you're out don't care because

he goes so hard yeah he goes hard but he

also thinks you're only relevance to me

is your relevance your only relevance to

me is can you help me with my mission

and after you're done after you can no

longer help me with my mission you're

not relevant to me

anymore what do you think of that

approach that's not my Approach right L

LinkedIn mirrors my Approach like

literally I am

referenceable by every entrepreneur that

I've ever worked with right as a board

member and as an investor right who you

know even ones that I've like fired as

CEO and so forth those people people

will say he was really good to work with

on these things they may also have some

critical things there's no problem with

that right but like like literally like

when I'm pitching an entrepreneur I like

call anyone that I've worked

with right because you I try to work

with people in a way that even when

we're at a at a at a difficult moment

because I disagree with them intensely

about how well they're doing or what

they're doing or something else that I'm

doing it in a collaborative constructive

way

and so my goal is to work with people

like anyone I want to work with Brian

chesy you know Mark Pinkus Etc I want to

be able to work with them for you know

uh the rest of our

lives what's interesting

is I think these strategies

fundamentally come down to what you

think matters in life yeah the most

because you could optimize even you

could optimize more for um building more

companies or something at the expense of

something else and it's a trade-off of

something else like you could go harder

yes but there's a trade-off happening

here and we often because elon's done

these crazy things like the cars and the

neural links and there tunnels and the

now the AI and the X and the spaceships

and stuff we go oh my God that's so

amazing and I do that as well as an

entreprene one person can do that much

but we almost never talk about the

trade-off yes yep you're 100% right and

we and and it's so this goes back to the

point about self-awareness it's like you

it's so tempting for the like the brain

to go oh my God I want that that's what

I want because you're not seeing the

tradeoff you're not seeing the darkness

that is 100% correct and look I respect

it I understand the burn people out like

treat them as disposable assets that

when they burn out you just jettison

them and you can be very elon's not the

only entrepreneur who is very successful

doing that right but for example on the

other side um like if you go to uh Mark

Zuckerberg and you talk to the people

who worked for him they're like that was

great that was the best working

experience of my life of course I work

with him again

interesting because there's a lot of

entrepreneurs that are coming Rising

through the ranks at the moment that

have kind of been raised on the Elon

philosophy of do [ __ ] tons of things do

them intently do them with uh less of a

regard for the I guess the human

consequence do them with less of a

regard for work life balance yeah well

you have

have the nature of this thing because

it's it's you know you're by Nature dead

as a startup work life balance is not

the startup game right so like I like

what when like when we started LinkedIn

we started with people who had families

so we said sure go home have dinner with

your family then after your dinner with

your family open up your laptop and get

back into the shared work experience and

keep working if you say that today

though you're

toxic the people who think it's toxic

don't understand the the startup game

and they're just

wrong right that the game is intense and

by the way if you don't do that then

eventually you're out of a

job I mean the people that say it's

toxic are often those that have never

had to do it yes and and look that's

fine it's not that everyone has to work

at startups working at startups is a

voluntary

choice but that's the game for a startup

and so that's how we try to balance in

the early days of LinkedIn we try to

balance how to to be human because we

like a third of the company had kids

right and so you're like okay like we

all have to work this way so we can't

say oh you third you sure you guys can

go home and you're out of the office and

then and then then call in or whatever

no like we'll all go for dinner and then

we'll all plan on getting back to work

after dinner so you get time with your

family you get to have dinner with your

kids it's the right human thing right

but we're working hard and Saturday

morning we're working is there a way to

build a startup in your

opinion where you have work life balance

and I Define work life balance maybe as

being able to see your friends often

spend time with your family often

um only in two circumstances one it's a

small startup it's both comp it's both

an absence of competition that's the

general one is it's so small no one's

really competing with you that's fine

okay right right my screen b a village

yeah it's fine right on number two you

have some such intense competitive mode

that people can't compete with you like

say for example you have

some like the only thing that matters in

this business is contracts with these

three companies and you have those three

contracts okay fine but absent that

that's reason because the the startups

that you're if you're in a valuable

space the startups that you're competing

with right like we had to make the

deliberate decision like startups we're

competing with aren't going home for

dinner right they're serving dinner at

the office that's what we did PayPal we

sered dinner at the office at PayPal

right right and that was a deliberate

thing we were one of the first companies

that started not only serving lunch but

serving dinner right and then other

because this The Learning Network you

get with SL Valley other companies start

looking oh yeah we're going to serve

dinner too so people don't go home yeah

don't go home keep working right to some

people this does it sounds somewhat

toxic right sounds like oh God but

that's not what life's about this is

like capitalism this is people just

wanting to make loads of money well

choose what your life's about that's

fine there's nothing that says you have

to do that and and what gives you the

right to tell other people that they

can't do that I mean like what are you

patronizing like people choose their own

lives right so and and people can choose

that now you have to understand the game

it's like well I'd like to be a

worldclass Olympic Athlete but I really

only want to swim two hours a day well

that's

nice right not gonna

happen right you have to understand the

game you're playing if if you're playing

an Olympics game like someone who's

trying to compete in the Olympics and

swimming they're swimming seven days a

week 12 hours a

day right so that that choose the game

and you say well that's toxic fine not

for you I think the important thing

which I see some companies doing well is

just to be honest about that when you're

on boarding people and don't shy away

exactly no that's like in early days of

LinkedIn when we were talking to people

we'd say by the way this is how we work

right we work six and a half days a week

right we um do get people home for

dinner but everyone including Reed is

expected you know you know you know

online working after

dinner and do you pay people more for

that than the average rate or so they

get paid in equity and this is one of

the things again um is you know the the

first I don't know some hundreds of

people at LinkedIn all don't need to

work anymore because their Equity is

enough that if they choose not to work

anymore that's totally fine which is a a

trade-off that was clearly worth making

yes you stepped back as CEO after four

years when you're at LinkedIn right yes

why did you do that

so um I had

um awareness of strengths and weaknesses

like I know how to do the CEO job right

um uh and I think it kind

of uh 150 people or less I'm as good as

anyone else right like that that that

scale of Co job um is a scale that I

that operates within my strengths and

weaknesses um when you start getting to

call it 500 people thousand people part

of the CEO job ends up becoming like how

do you govern the community of the

company now it's not the only thing but

like okay like you know what the kinds

of things that Jeff weiner that I

learned from him on was all right well

you start thinking of recruiting not as

you going out and individually

recruiting people or helping your hiring

manager recruiting people but you think

about recruiting as a general strategy

for the company and how does that

General strategy work and how do you

have like for example you get to this

point in the scale company where you

start having onboarding days so like for

example new employees start at one of

the onboarding days and they start as a

group together right so it's kind of

like okay we're going through kind of

how it works and we're integrating

people into the different group like

like you know the sales people the

engineers they all start and they're

going into different groups we like

we're approaching it as as the engine of

the company and the things that I you

only world class but the things you're

passionate about the things I'm

passionate about like the technology

strategy the product strategy um the um

the kind of the big idea for what you're

doing there and I love working with

super high-powered talent and one of the

things that I had kind of learned is

well that's the reason I like working

with Founders that's the reason I like

working with CEOs because the some

degree it's like okay you're the talent

I'm working with on this company right

in order to do that and so I was like

yeah I like doing more of being a board

member working with c

more than I like being the CEO once you

get past you know 150 people so that's

what I should be doing and what I need

to do is I need to get linked in to a

point where it's already you know it's

it's already kind of hit breakout

velocity right and so you can recruit

now a worldclass CEO that you can work

with right and that's what that's what I

should do and you know I like for

example the entire time time that Jeff

weer was the CEO of Linkin my primary

office was immediately next door to

his interesting so you stay close but

you yeah yeah again this is another

point of self-awareness which a lot of

Founders don't have but the great

Founders that I've met and interviewed

whether it's I don't know Brian chesky

or whether it was some Founders from the

UK like Bennett Jim shark and Julian

from hu one of the things that really

Define them was they did a low ego move

to move out of that CEO role which is

typically associated with like the glitz

and the Glam because they knew that

their skill set was in branding or

marketing or something else or just

vision for the the future of the company

a lot of CEOs don't do that because the

COO title comes with a certain yeah I

understand esteem um and yes everybody

myself included does have a big ego

right but my ego is you you have to

attach the right way my ego is attached

to LinkedIn

succeeding right yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah it's a big difference yes

LinkedIn went public in 2011 with a 4.3

billion valuation and then Microsoft

later paid 26 billion to buy LinkedIn at

the time it was reported you owned about

11% of the company which made you a

multi-billionaire

how does life change when one becomes a

multi-billionaire

so it's funny I try to never like like

one of the funny things I never repost

things that call me billionaire and so

forth because I try to not have that

identity I am aware that it's an

accurate descriptor yeah right um but

it's not like the way I think of myself

I don't think of myself as Reed Hoffman

billionaire I think of myself as Reed

Hoffman technologist Reed Hoffman public

intellectual Reed Hoffman uh creative

you know strategist Reed Hoffman Etc so

I try

to um change my life as in those

directions not in the the wealth

Direction now of course you know I

travel around in a private plane you

know I own houses in several different

areas of the world you know that kind of

stuff yeah right um but uh I try to live

a life within those you know high wealth

things as much of a as an upper middle

class person as I can so for example

before I came here to do the interview I

I got here a little early so I went to

the nearby Starbucks had a cup of coffee

pull up my laptop was working on it

interesting you know because because

that's the way that I want to live right

uh and I want Human Relationships that

are like that I think human

relationships are really important I

feel lucky to have um relationships with

some people who are these really really

amazing people but by the way there's

amazing people who are like World

celebrities and there's amazing people

who the world doesn't know about I just

like I just like going through life with

amazing people and that's part of what I

mean by that you've always been

associated with the left side of

politics your parents were very uh left

leaning to to to say the least I heard

that you got pepper sprayed when you

were a kid because because I was I was a

kid on my uh father's shoulder at a

demonstration against against the

Vietnam War okay so that's it's in your

DNA yes the thing about being on the

left is it's typically the left that

have a opinion of billionaires that

they're evil yes I'm aware of that but

not just billionair I've I've been

called Evil by a number of people on the

left really yes of course look I they

are wrong

that that is a necessary

correlation right um but I you look I I

try to understand people I understand

their

perspective I disagree with it but I

understand it it's I mean you you're one

of the few people that's still a

billionaire and on the left it seems no

I'm not I actually in the valley

especially in the selection cycle uh

well it's the public facing people that

we see on the podcast and stuff and look

so part of the reason why I think less

people were public about about it this

cycle was

because uh you know president Trump was

threatening you know personal and