The D of a CEO live, my live show, my

live reincarnation of this podcast is

coming on tour and it's coming to a city

near you. There's a link in the

description below. Put your email

address in and I will email you when

tickets go on sale. Can't wait to see

you. [music]

I know what I've done has been culture

changing and I'm super proud of that.

All hell would kick loose if that

happened today. I was poisoned by my

nanny. I've had a bullet through the

post. It was so important to me not to

feel like a victim. You know, anybody

that's listening will not know the

crusade that I've been on.

I don't really know what to say.

Honestly, I feel speechless.

Yeah. Gosh, it's it is hard. I was

[music] diagnosed with breast cancer.

When I spoke to the consultant, he said

[music]

[music]

Jacqueline Gold, she is one of the most

successful business women in Europe.

She's also one of the wealthiest women

in the UK and she's certainly one of the

most inspiring people I have ever ever

met. Just remarkable. But her road to

success is one of the most devastatingly

misfortunate,

tragic, heartbreaking roads I think

we've ever heard traveled on this

podcast. Imagine me speechless. This

podcast made me speechless. Not once,

not twice, but over and over again.

She is and has been the CEO of Anne

Summers for decades, a company that, if

you don't know, is known for

popularizing sex toys, dismantling the

unhealthy, archaic stigmas around sex,

and starting a crusade to make sex a

more widely accepted part of all of our

lives. But her story twists and it

turns. The lessons, the courage, the

resilience, the heartbreak, the pain.

This should be a movie. You just

couldn't make it up. Jacqueline, thank

you for your honesty. Thank you for your

courage and thank you for the

inspiration. I know that it will stay

with me for a lifetime. Without further

ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the

diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's

listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself. [music]

[music]

I really hate when um podcasts are quite

predictable. However, I've noticed that

in my podcast, I've continued to start

in a very similar place. And it's I

can't get away from it. And the place

that I always tend to start is about the

person that sat in front of me's early

years and how those early years have

shaped them. And as I was reading about

your story, I actually read that you'd

said that. I read that you'd said your

early adversity heavily shaped who you

are today and who you became and

influenced the career journey you took.

So, I have to start there and I feel

like I always start there. But can you

tell me about that early adversity that

you're talking about?

Yes, I can. Um, I had a really uh

unconventional and challenging

childhood.

Um, my parents split up when I was 12.

My sister was a lot younger than me. She

was 7 years younger than me. So, it

didn't impact her in the same way as it

impacted me. Um, I found it it it was

quite traumatic. I

actually stayed down a year at school

because of the impact it had on me. Um,

and at the same time, my mother moved in

with her boyfriend, um,

who sexually abused me between the age

of 12 and 15,

you know, and that combined with a

mother who was overprotective,

you know, wouldn't let

me or my sister just do anything and

play in the normal way.

um you know, we weren't allowed to go to

sleepovers or parties or anything like

that.

But then when it came to this abuse,

which I believe she knew about,

um you know, we were left in the most

vulnerable situations,

um you know, she was quite a a

complicated woman and you know, we were

in a a pretty tough situation. So for me

later in life,

in fact I say later in life, I probably

was about 15, you know, finding

financial independence was really

important to me because that was my

escape.

H [snorts]

it's hard to it's hard to imagine a

parent knowing about about that

especially as you say one that was so

risk adverse

was so keen to keep you in the house to

not let you outside because you might

fall into a dangerous situation but

would turn a blind eye to that

I mean it you know I've tried to

rationalize this myself numerous times

because she was she was quite ill in her

later years. So I didn't challenge her.

I just felt she was and even in her

earlier years I just felt I always felt

she was very vulnerable herself. Um

you know just she she once said to me if

I could live in the middle of a field

with no one around me I'd be happy. So

she herself

wanted to be protected in one sense, you

know, she she wouldn't even let my

sister and I play in the front garden in

case we were kidnapped. I mean, it was,

you know, totally irrational. And yet

stayed with a man,

you know, I remember overhearing her on

a in a phone conversation with her

sister after he'd returned after a

year's break.

And I remember hearing her say, "Yes, I

know he's a bastard, but you know, I I

don't want to be on my my own." It was

just a toxic, you know, a toxic

relationship, a toxic environment.

Um, and I and you know, I I have

forgiven her. Um,

but I feel very sad for for her and and

and the life that she lived.

Did she ever admit to knowing that her

partner was abusing you?

No.

Did you ever ask her?

I didn't ask her, but there were many

occasions when I called out for help.

Um, and a couple of occasions that she

either witnessed or

overheard me telling someone, you know,

I was told off for telling lies. Even my

aunt has later told me that she saw

something going on. She told my mom

about it who played it down. So there

were lots of situations where it was

clear to me that she would have known.

Do you know much about her upbringing

and what might and what um the early

sort of experiences that shaped her?

No, I mean I I think that I mean my

grandmother was lovely.

Um, my grandfather was an authoritarian.

Um, you know,

her sister grew up,

you know, perfectly well, but she she

was very was was very insecure.

Beautiful woman, you know, very elegant,

but

you're scared of life.

And your younger sister, you've got a

younger sister?

I have. Yeah. She's uh 7 years younger

than me. Fantastic businesswoman,

great people person and somebody who

really, you know,

I admire her so much. Vanessa, we have a

great relationship and she's funny and

engaging and

yeah, I mean, she's my best friend. You

grew up in the same household with her,

but you turn out to be very different

people and you're only a couple of years

apart because you talked there about at

the very start about how just being a

couple of years apart in those ear

experiences, even if you're in the same

household, can create two completely

different people cuz they both

experienced very very different things

because of [clears throat] age. And I I

really resonated with that because um

like even in my in my childhood, my

family became on the verge of bankruptcy

when I was um old enough to know what

was going on,

but my older brothers and sisters kind

and also when I was probably most

influential sort of easily influenced

like adversity showed up in my childhood

when I was when I was of like the ripest

of ages. Um, and so I'm very very

different from my brothers and sisters.

And I I kind of felt that from what you

said there. The difference between you

and Vanessa was just a couple of years

off, but um, you experienced very

different things in those early years.

Yes. Um, I think Vanessa was also a bit

more outspoken than me. And I think

that, you know, as a child, maybe it was

because of the way my mother was and the

fact that, you know, for my first um

seven years of life, I was an only child

and uh I don't know, but I I was very I

was very shy. And I remember my mother

used to if we went on a beach holiday,

she used to draw a circle in the sand,

put me in the middle, and I wasn't

allowed outside that circle.

Um, so I I never really had

opportunities

to make friends with other children and

engage with adults. I was I always felt

quite lonely bizarrely whereas I think

the second child always you know has it

easier in my opinion um as I keep

reminding my sister

and so you know she just was that much

more confident that more much more

outspoken so I don't think she was ever

you know likely to be a a target I'm not

saying she wasn't but because we we we

haven't spoken about it, but I think

she's less likely to have been a target

of of of abuse than I was.

Um,

you've never spoken about it.

Well, we have spoken about it, but I

don't think she wants to she just

doesn't want to talk about her

experience,

fine.

Which is which is, you know, I respect

that. And, you know, and

everybody deals with adversity in

different ways. Um

and you know no matter how successful

somebody is or privileged they may be

you know it doesn't change you know the

the challenges that we might experience

along the way and everybody deals with

them in different ways and for me it was

so important to me not to feel like a

victim. I didn't want to feel like a

victim. I hate the word. And that's not

to say,

you know, that other people handle it

wrong. It's just for me. I just wanted

to,

I suppose, gain something from that bad

experience, you know, whether it be

proof that I can, you know, and actually

I've experienced

adversity throughout my life. I've I've

been quite unfortunate, you know, in

that way. Um I you know I lost my son

when he was six years old. Um I was

poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet

through the post. So I've had a number

of challenges

subsequently to the childhood

experience. But certainly just going

back to that the childhood experience

did I believe shape who I am today. I

think it drove me to want to go out and

work hard. Uh have that financial

independence, you know, I was always

curious, always talking to people,

always looking for

inspiration, I guess. And so much of it,

and just thinking about that as well, so

much of your work now because I've, you

know, I've been through your story

multiple times and looked at the way

that you've made your decisions and so

much of it is is centered on that idea

of like empowerment and giving, you

know, empowering people to be free from

whatever their prisoner might be. And

sometimes prisoner is society, sometimes

it's social narratives, whatever else.

But, um, I've really I deeply respect

that about you cuz I read there was a

day in your story where you

confronted your abuser and that ended up

being a really pivotal moment.

Could you [clears throat] tell me about

that?

Yeah. Um, gosh, it's it is hard.

Yeah. [clears throat]

Going back and remembering those periods

in time that you you just want to uh

park away. But

I was 15.

I'd been trying to plan how I was going

to do this for some time. But obviously

you lack the courage. You know, I was a

very young 15year-old as well. Um,

and

I didn't want to,

you know, generate anger. I mean he was

the rous that my mother used to have.

The coercive control that I witnessed

made me want to make this as

um

you know easy as possible. So in my

childish way I decided to

tell him it wasn't fair on mom.

So it was I was trying to I mean is this

something we do as as girls? I think

girls are brought up to be helpful and

to please people please and this is you

know I'm sure we come on to empowerment

but that was the you know that was the

problem. I was brought up to be well

behaved and to be a people pleaser and

take John up a cup of tea and you know

he likes you and this all this type of

stay inside your circle.

Yeah. Um

so for me the best way to handle this

was to

help him not lose face or not feel bad

or so. And he he just

he didn't really say anything. He just

shrugged.

Um, and that was it. It was as easy as

that. And it never happened again.

But I didn't when I look back or if I

was talking to my, you know, young self

now,

I didn't realize,

you know, that I could stand up to him

and that I was perhaps more powerful

than I realized. I'm disappointed as an

adult that I felt I had to approach it

in the way I did. But then I forget that

that, you know, I am an adult. I was a

child then and

I was incredibly brave.

You know, I could have done nothing.

Um, and I did I was able to bring it to

an end. Um,

and

you know, whilst it's very difficult to

forgive somebody that has put you

through that much pain and trauma in

your life,

um,

as a person, I have to take positives

from anything negative that happens to

me and everything that I've been

through. That for me is how I survive.

That's for me how I

better my life, how I go on to better

things and you know I turn my focus to

work and to ambition and being curious

and learning different things and then

just seeing this opportunity

which actually

turned out to be

a great opportunity to empower women.

You know, a lot of people are, well,

gosh, you went through that abuse. Why

would you go into something like this?

But

there was an opportunity there. And, you

know, fast forward, I mean, I'm 61 now.

I was 21 when I started. So, fast

forward 40 years.

You look 25. [laughter]

You say all the right things.

Yeah, but you do. [ __ ] it. You're 61.

[ __ ] me. I'm mental. That's crazy.

So, I know what I've done has been

culture changing and I'm super proud of

that. I really am. And, you know, I've,

you know, anybody that's listening that

is 25 will not know the crusade that

I've been on for the last 40 years. I

mean, it's you just wouldn't believe

that you you know what you couldn't do

and what you what you couldn't do then,

what you can can do now. and the changes

and attitudes of, you know, the

generations of today compared to the

generations then. I really want to talk

about that because I know you you had

some really tumultuous experiences going

on that crusade and I love I love um

talking about shifting perceptions and

and also we've seen in our lifetime how

quickly a lot of perceptions have

shifted around like you know equality

and sexuality and gender and um the

crusade that you you know led I think is

is has been a really important one um

probably more important than a lot of

people realize. Um, I wanted to pick up

on one thing you said about you being

shy.

You know, the what you've gone on to do

in your career and life and the crusade

you've led is not one that would, you

know, one would think would be led by a

shy person. The person that I've met

today doesn't seem to be a shy person

necessarily. To me, seems to be one of

conviction and confidence and belief. In

hindsight, how did you go from being

that shy person that was kind of coddled

um at an early age by a mother that was

risk adverse drew a circle around you in

the sand, didn't let you off the front

garden to being the person you are

today? What is it that ch what is it

that does that to somebody?

Um well, I I think there's a few things

around this because um I don't think

this is exclusive to me. I think a lot

of women especially

uh experience this. I think well, first

of all, I I I might be wrong, but I

don't think we're born shy. I think it's

our situational environment that creates

that. And secondly, you can be shy but

still have fire in your belly, which is

what I had. You know, I had that

ambition and that burning desire.

And

when you have that passion, you you have

to release it. You can't keep it inside

just because you're shy. And um I think

there were many things that I did. You

know, I remember in my very early 20ies

holding a conference, my first

conference for my army of of um sales

ambassadors, which I had about 500 in my

first year

for Anne Summers.

Fran Summers. Yes.

And I held this conference at the um

Grand Hotel in Brighton

and I thought it was a great idea when I

planned it because the whole idea is to

engage with your teams and tell them

about what you're doing and what your

mission is and get everybody involved

and on the journey

and it was sort of you know a few hours

before I was going on stage I was

thinking oh my god [laughter] what am I

doing because this was like

[clears throat]

horror to me. I had no experience and I

was, you know, absolutely terrified.

But if you're talking about something

that you are passionate about, I think

it changes it. It's not the same as

doing a best man speech or,

you know, getting up at school and doing

your first speech. when you're talking

about something that you really care

about and that you live and breathe,

once you get out there and you got that

first sentence out the way, I do think

it changes you.

Yeah.

And you know,

that's what it did for me. So I I am a

great believer that courage comes first

and I've always had a lot of courage and

I think if you have the courage

eventually the confidence will come.

Yeah. So yeah from what you said there

like the courage is creating is forcing

you to create evidence for yourself.

Yeah. It's forcing you to step outside

your comfort zone

and then we all know anyone that's

successful knows that when you do great

things happen.

Yeah. and your comfort zone then

expands, becomes [clears throat] a bit

bigger and then you step out of then.

Exactly.

Interesting. Um, so you said there about

work and you've always had that drive.

When I was reading through your story

again, I I heard about you one of the

things your mom did allow you to do was

to work. Um, and so I was I was thinking

about the the relationship work you then

had in your life from a very early um

from a very early stage. If if work was

the place that you were allowed to go to

to leave the home, then

was it was it an escape from home? Was

it like a the place of freedom in your

life?

It was so freedom. I mean, well, first

of all, I can't tell you the countless

times I'd asked her if I could go to a

sleepover or a, you know, party or just

things that normal kids do and it was

always no. Um and there was another sort

of form of abuse was this they her and

her husband had this her new husband had

this task mask taskmaster approach to

everything they did and it was you know

there was no end to it you it's never

like you could ever finish the tasks and

they were

like digging the garden um they weren't

like cleaning the kitchen they were like

digging the garden bringing logs up. You

know, it was very it was manual labor

for my sister as well. And it was like

these jobs will never get done, so we'll

never be able to go out. It's a bit like

Cinderella as I'm telling the story. It

sounds a bit like that. Um,

but she seemed to accept things that

were traditional.

So, going to work was something

or getting a Saturday job is something

that people do. So, that was okay. So I

couldn't get a bus into Brmley to meet

up with friends, but I could get a bus

into Westerm to go and work at the

spinning wheel as a waitress.

So did you look forward to that?

Absolutely. And of course there weren't

the rules then. You know, I was working

at 14 years old. I I worked in a bar at

Big and Hill Airfield. I did

waitressing. I worked in a hairdressing

salon.

So um yeah that that was a a release.

Did you try and work all the time

[laughter] more and more hours over

time?

Yeah. And actually it compromised my

schooling because I

I didn't really invest in my schooling.

I just wanted to work. So I didn't go to

college or university or

anything that I expect my daughter will

probably do now. Was there um and I

would I do want to to to talk about some

of these other points around

empowerment, but was there any physical

and I don't think people think about

this enough, but one of the things I've

I've got were increasingly fascinated by

was the connection between like

psychological trauma and physical

impacts. So the on our physical health

and how the two are somewhat interlin

and was there any sort of physical

uh symptoms or consequences of that

psychological trauma that reared their

head.

So interesting you say that because I

have

a stalker um and his mother many years

ago many years ago. And and the impact

was tinitus. I had tinitus.

Yeah.

And all through the cuz they they caught

them, it was went to trial, they were um

found guilty. I mean it was it's another

I mean it's a crazy story. It's a crazy

story. C

can you describe what

tinitus is when you get the ringing in

the ears but actually I just had this

marching. It was a constant marching and

it doesn't stop. So when you go to bed

you've got you know

I had it.

Oh did you? So, I know very few people

will know what tinitus is like unless

you've had it because it sounds trivial.

If I say to you, "Oh, it's just like a

ringing in the ears or whatever." People

go, "Oh, that's fine. Like, I've been to

a gig before, my ears have run."

But you get like day two into it and I

So, I got tinitus for

right so I go on Google, what's this

ringing in my ears and why won't it

stop? And it must have been about

6 years ago, seven years ago. And then

you get into day three and you're losing

your mind. And I'm on these forums and

people are like, "People commit suicide

because of because of it."

And I I kind of understood why. Yeah.

It was like a form of torture.

Sleep. You wake up, it's constant.

You're eating lunch, your ears are

ringing, and there's no end to it.

There's nothing you can do to stop it.

So, fortunately, you know,

talking about my experience with it. One

day, I don't really know what happened,

but your sinuses are connected to your

ears. It's what I came to learn when I

had tenitis. Tenitus. And I think it

must have been because my sinuses were

blocked cuz on day nine of my ears

ringing it just stopped

and some people live with it for life.

Yeah, I mean I was very fortunate. I

think I had it for about 3 months and

then it stopped. So I was very lucky. I

mean some people have to live it live

with it. Um, but mine was definitely

brought on by

that awful experience and obviously the

abuse I I I did I mean I had severe

sorry to be graphic but severe

constipation

that um I look back and I think was

you know brought on by my own trying to

be in control behavior. just remembered

as you said that. I remember going to

the doctors about it and blurting out to

the doctor what was going on at home

and the doctor and I said and I'm really

worried cuz I've got a younger sister

and the doctor said to me, "Um, okay, do

you want me to get social services

involved?" I Oh, no, no, no, no. Cuz you

know, as a child, you think you're going

to be in trouble. You think you're going

to be taken away from your mom. And she

said, "Okay, that was it. Oh, [ __ ]

I mean

I mean all hell would kick loose if that

happened today.

I don't really know what to say.

Honestly, I feel speechless cuz you just

can't imagine an adult hearing that

these days and

and posing the question to you about

next steps.

Mhm.

Just think that just seems unthinkable.

perceptions have changed a lot, haven't

they, around sexual abuse and um

and and and also victim blaming, which I

think was was a was a really destructive

habit that society had, which fueled the

problem, not having a safe environment

to to speak, thinking that you'd be

blamed or, you know,

absolutely. I think there still are

challenges. I don't think this is a

problem that's gone away just because

we're all more vocal. I did a a a a

project recently and just going off

piece for a moment, I was quite

surprised about consent and I I I did a

workshop on consent and uh I think

there's a lot that we don't know, we

don't realize and I did a a piece around

um talking to university students and

you know some girls go to university

expecting to be assaulted. So, I do

still think there is a lot a lot more

education that's needed. And maybe

that's because I'm the mum of a

12-year-old daughter. So, things like

that sort of resonate with me more.

I've got to be honest. Um I completely

agree and I think as a man um there is a

ton of education that we need to

understand this topic um from

the other side of the spectrum as well

because um a lot of my friends um find

themselves in a place my male friends

where they are like naive and they know

they're naive to what consent means.

I I really agree with that. I really

agree with that and I think that I just

think there should be more emphasis in

schools. We should be talking about

consent more. I interestingly when I did

this project I met a trans man

and he was telling me that when he was a

woman he experienced certain attention,

unwanted attention and obviously saw it

from a female point of view. And then

when he transitioned to a man, he was

just blown away by some of the things

that he was hearing from a man's point

of view. So um yeah, that that was quite

uh enlightening and interesting.

Those are the conversations we need to

be having. For sure.

For sure.

you um you said that you talked earlier

on about how you know hard times shape

you and I you know it's clear that from

everything you've said that resilience

is one of your superpowers. I've I've

I've actually heard I've heard that

written a few times when people talk

about you. What does that mean to you?

Resilience.

I think that's true. I I I think I am a

resilient person. I think um for me

the battle is won before the war has

even started.

So, for example,

I was diagnosed in 2016 with breast

cancer. I remember my husband and my

sister when they were first told the

news, I could tell they've been crying

and I'm saying, "Come on, guys. You

know, I need your support here. We, you

know, we need to put a strategy

together. We've got to put a plan

together because that is how that's my

mindset. My mindset has always been that

way. There's got to be a solution to

this. you know, there's got to be

something better that can come from

this. It was a brutal journey.

Um, there is no doubt about that. Um,

but I remember saying things to myself

like when I have my next scan, the

cancer's going to be gone.

And when I had my next scan in the

January, it had gone or it wasn't on the

scan. I then had an operation in the

in the July I think it was uh a

lumpctomy

and I was told I was all clear and that

there was a one 0.1% chance it would

come back because I'd had such a good

response to treatment.

Unfortunately, I was in that 0.1%

and it did return a couple of years

later and I had a mistctomy.

And when I spoke to the consultant, he

said it's not curable, but it is

treatable.

Uh because it's now gone from stage two

to stage four, which was, you know,

which was devastating to hear. And of

course I I immediately said to him, well

um you know what are the chances of it

being cured? I know you're saying it

it's not curable, but we've all heard of

people, oh yes, but you know that's 0 0

0.1%.

And my attitude is well if anyone is

going to be that 0.1% is going to be me

because

I have to think like that. That's what

helps

drive me forward and get me out of these

situations. If I could have been that

0.1% where it went wrong, I can be that

0.1% where it goes brilliant. And

actually, I'm right now in what they

call excellent remission. So, you know,

I'm still got my am I still have

ambitions for more, but I am feeling

blessed at where I am. And I think that

has a lot to do with with my outlook on

life. And that's the learning, you know,

when nobody wants to wish this, you

know, serious illnesses or

life-threatening illnesses on ourselves.

But for me, I have to find the

opportunity in that. Well, where's

where's the good thing? Where's the

opportunity? Well, it has made me live a

much healthier life. You know, I do

appreciate things so much more. You

know, I am a different person. I put,

you know, my priorities have changed. I

love the female empowerment side of what

I do and I want to invest more time in

that. I think this is far more important

to me and I think finding your passion

is so

so vital whether you are going through

health issues or not in everything that

you do.

That bias towards optimism that you

describe like you [clears throat] know

it sounds like you could be thrown in

any sort of situation and you'd be

looking at the as you say like the 0.1%

chance of a positive outcome. That's a

really really remarkable thing, right?

And you've you know you've been the CEO

of a tremendous company. You'll you'll

be able to look at your organization and

see those people in your organization

that have that same bias to optimism.

When all goes wrong, pandemics show up

out of nowhere. They have that bias

towards optimism, which is we can. And

you know, like it doesn't even matter if

we can't because all we can focus on is

we can. That's the only choice we have.

But you've also probably seen the

negative the other side of that, right?

And um I guess my question to you is

like from what you've seen in your

organization and you know even in your

life, how important is that? Um and how

costly is the antithesis of that?

Oh gosh, there's a few answers to that.

First of all, in my personal life, the

first thing that comes to mind is my

daughter. So when she was in junior

school, every morning without fail, as

she left, I my husband would take her to

school and I would say, "I can." And she

would shout back, "I know I can." So we

did that every morning. And I didn't

want her to grow up having the that

feeling of lacking in confidence and

being so painfully shy. I just wanted to

empower her as much as I possibly can.

So it was just that was just a little

thing I used to do. I think um you know

the pandemic is a really good example. I

mean I remember I mean at our peak we

had 146 stores uh you know over the

years obviously more people are going

online. we've reduced our our store

portfolio and then of course the

pandemic. Anyone having leases had to uh

negotiate with their landlords and you

know we had to suddenly be told that all

of your stores had to be closed. I mean

I never I can never forget that moment.

It was heartbreaking actually because it

was like my baby, you know, to suddenly

be told that was incredible.

And

then of course you you're thinking how

am I going to tell my teams we value our

people so much and this was how are we

going to talk them through what's you

know the plan because we had to make

difficult decisions we had to let people

go but bringing those people on that

really difficult journey was so

important. talking to them regularly,

reassuring them, telling them what our

plans were, how we were going to get

through this. Um,

was

it was incredible actually. And a yes,

we all worked really hard. Everybody

worked so hard, but they achieved things

I never thought we as a business could

achieve. I mean, our sales ambassadors,

you know, went from 4,000 to 20,000 in 3

months. Um, because we were doing a

fantastic job. Um, I mean, you may say

differently, but I think we were doing a

fantastic job on social engaging with

our customers and, you know, keeping the

conversations going and being relevant

in what was going on. And you won't be

surprised that we completely sold out of

penis pasta.

Penis. Sorry, one second. [laughter]

Take a ad break there for peanut.

Penis pasta,

of course.

Okay.

All All the supermarkets sold out of

pasta and we were pushing pasta and

toilet rolls. We were pushing our penis

pasta, which is pasta shaped like penis.

Okay.

We were doing and still are doing some

amazing things. It was a very creative

time.

Very innovative. Forced innovation.

Very creative and innovative.

Quick one. On this podcast, I've spent a

lot of time talking about how Hule has

changed my life, especially as someone

that lives a very fast-paced lifestyle

that wants to also be healthy and not,

you know, reach for convenient food.

Having a nutritionally complete um

partner in my life like Hule has um led

me to being in the best shape of my

life, but also has given me high energy,

has made me feel good, has helped my

mental health. However, this week I

wanted to do something different because

every week I bang on about the impact

it's had on me. I received a DM from

somebody this week um from a young man

who picked up um some Hule a couple of

months ago after listening to the

podcast, which makes me feel amazing.

Um, and they described to me how having

hu and having a convenient alternative

to the junk food they were eating has

had a tremendous quote tremendous impact

on every area of their lives that they

would never have foreseen before. Um,

and this [clears throat] person has

continued to send me videos and

sometimes pictures of them on their Hu

journey and their transformation. And

for me, that is why it's a pleasure to

have Hule as a sponsor, a company and a

brand and a product that I genuinely

believe can help people change their

lives and start getting nutritionally

complete in their their dietary choices.

You started working at Aners when you

were 19 or

I did. Yes.

How did that happen?

So, I was working at Royal Dorton. I had

no I had no business experience. I had

retail experience, but it wasn't,

you know, Rald Dawn is a fantastic

brand, but it was too quiet and I wanted

a much buzzier environment. They offered

me management, but I, you know, it

wasn't really what I wanted to do. So, I

was creative as well. So, I wanted I

guess there was that creativity.

Um,

and I I worked at Anne [clears throat]

Summers, which was my father's business

at the time. And they were he had sex

shops and um a mail order business,

which was like literally tearing a

coupon out of a magazine and posting off

what you wanted. I was only working

there as for work experience. And I was

invited to um a Tupperware well it

wasn't Tupperware it was Pippa but it

was sort of like Tupperware style party

and it was closed and it was in a

council flat in southeast London in

Tmsme and I remember driving there in my

mustard colored mini. Um I was just you

know just these two women invited me.

They knew what I did and I was just a

guest. Um, and they were showing around

the clothes and and then somebody got I

do remember actually having to draw a

picture of my husband's meat and two veg

on a piece of paper on top of my head

and I was sort of thinking this is not

how I imagined my career starting but

it's uh it's an interesting story to

tell [laughter]

and it was women at the party sort of

knew I worked at Anne Summers and said

look why don't you do an summers parties

we want to we'd love to be able to spice

up our sex lives but we're we're too

embarrassed to go into a sex shop. And I

thought actually this is quite a good

idea. So I got some of the toys and

lingerie from the from our Tottenham

Court Road store we had at the time. Um,

I held a few parties myself

and uh, and I remember guests at the

party sort of passing the product round

like this cuz obviously it was switched

on and they were sort of excited

um, curious but incredibly nervous at

the same time. Whereas now, of course,

they just want to know what sizes they

come in, what speeds they are. It's

completely different. Um, but they were

having fun. they were enjoying

themselves that they were talking about

their relationships, you know, they were

just being open and relaxed and candid

and I just thought this this is

something completely different. I've

never seen anything like this. You don't

even women's magazines aren't this

candid. It was that point I thought if

this if I go forward with this, it's

going to be for women only. you know,

you're just not going to get that same

atmosphere with with men and also a

mixed um group. I just thought women

would feel uncomfortable. Uh there'd be

other partners' husbands there. You're

showing personal product. This isn't

this isn't going to work. And I think

that was actually one of the best

decisions I made. So, of course, today

it's sort of like a a female

institution, but we had at that time

there was, I think, 10% of women going

in the stores. And I remember taking

this idea to the board, walking down

this sort of what felt like this long

corridor into this room full of all men,

all middle-aged, all in gray suits.

Um, and telling them about this party

I'd been to and these parties that I'd

held and, you know, we we need to do

something different. We should do and

Summers Summer's parties. I had no

business experience, by the way. just

all from the heart. And uh I remember

one businessman

at the meeting, Ron Coleman, he's dead

now, so I can talk about him. [laughter]

He stood up and he threw his pen down on

the table and said, "Well, this isn't

going to work, is it? Women aren't even

interested in sex."

So I instantly thought, "Well, actually,

this has got a lot more to do about your

sex life than it has about my idea."

Wow. Um and you know luckily they agreed

to to invest in some advertising.

[snorts]

So um I was advertising in the

evening standard

once a week and I wasn't allowed to put

erotic parties. I had to put exotic and

I couldn't say ladies only because of

all the rules.

But I used to hold like um a seminar

once a week at the Strand Palace Hotel

and I'd go up there, meet with people

that had seen the advert, probably about

25 people in the room, talk to them

about my idea. Obviously, the men I had

to ask leave, some would actually get up

and leave themselves. They, you know, it

was nothing had been done like this

before. And I remember I still remember

having those conversations. And I

remember remember one couple, it was two

women wanted to do the parties together,

bored housewives living in Chelsea, not

the demographic people would necessarily

expect. And then all of a sudden, people

were popping up, groups of people were

popping up in different areas. So I

recruited the two girls in Chelsea, I

recruited the eight women at the party

in Tesme. Then what I would do is I

would advertise in those area areas.

concentrate the advertising in those

areas and it really was

self-propagating. Then later when we

decided to right, we're ready now to

open stores, reopen stores with a

through a female lens, it was like a an

induction into the brand. So, um, and it

still is, I think, to a degree.

It's incredible. And something you said

at the start there about being naive in

business, I thought was really

compelling because so much innovation

seems to come from being naive.

Yeah, I agree. I had no experience, but

it that no experience forced me to rely

on feedback from my customers, you know,

something we don't always do enough of

um because I had no choice. and what I

saw as a disadvantage actually turned

out to be, you know, one of my and the

and the brand's main benefits because

that's

in our DNA now. That's what we do.

It's really interesting. I've never

heard a phrase like that that you were

because you didn't have experience or a

ton of knowledge. You were learning from

feedback as opposed to like convention.

Convention doesn't create new things. It

just more of the same.

Yeah. And you know, as a woman in

business, I was only 21. I was quietly

spoken. Not how people would expect a

business person to be alone if you like

in the sex industry as it was then. I

don't sort of think of it that way now.

There was so much negativity. So from

business people, I would have comments.

Um [laughter]

I remember one guy owned a chain of um

estate agents saying to me, "This isn't

going to work. It's just a fad. Give it

two years, you know. And I think people

were so used to doing things how they'd

always done them.

And we know that, don't we, when we and

I'm moving on a few years and if it's

okay to go off piece again, but no

worries. You know, when you think of

heritage brands like Walworth, you know,

doing things the way they'd always done

things. That's why I say the pandemic,

there were positives because it it

forced those companies that have done

well to do things differently.

[clears throat]

You talked about the phase in your

business where you started opening these

stores.

um in that era, you know, if someone was

to open a a shop that was perceived as

being just a sex shop in my neck of the

woods, you know, when there was a huge

amount of stigma towards it. Can't

imagine people being so happy about

that.

It wasn't the people. It wasn't if you

if we wanted to go into a I mean I'll

give you an example of loads of examples

but you know Brmley um we really wanted

a presence in in Brmley um Glade Center

and I actually remember you know I was I

went with the landlords and the um the

center and you know and they were going

right well you know we could do it we

could do it if if we change the if you

could change the name from Anne Summers

and there

a a brand bias.

There were many, you know, center

management that would say over our dead

body. And

someone did someone send you a bullet in

the post?

Yes.

What the [ __ ] Why did they send you

what?

Uh God, I wanted to open a store in

Dublin.

The sales per um per head of parties

were higher than they were in the UK. So

I knew that um you know there was there

was an appetite

and we'd found this site in Okonnell

Street which admittedly was a bit of a

controversial location because it was

right opposite the GO building. um GPO

and so you know it's where there were

you know there was violence and clashes

and the Dublin Corporation which is the

equivalent of our council in fact they

might be called council now um were

email uh not emailing me sending me

letters you know putting me under

pressure not to go ahead saying that

they had another location back street

but I didn't want to be in the back

street I wanted to be accessible

so They um in fact it was me. I invited

them over to the UK. I just wanted them

to see our stores to see that we weren't

trying to shop people that we you know

we were trying to empower people. We

were trying to make it comfortable for

women empower women in the bedroom but

despite showing them round and they they

in the after so during the morning they

were shown around by my retail director.

In the afternoon, I invited them to a

board meeting and their names were

Kieran and Allan.

Kieran couldn't look at me. He sat he

sat there without any eye contact at

all. Allan sat right next to me right

here telling him every, you know, they

were really good cop, bad cop. He's

trying to tell me about his sex life.

And I said to them, look, you know, it's

very clear you have your own agenda.

You're not going to change your mind.

There's no not much point in us carrying

on here. And Allan said to me, his

parting words were, "Well, I hope you'll

understand that we cannot be held

responsible for what might happen to

you."

Which was a very chilling thing to say.

And there was loads of uh negative media

because there was all this big hoo-ha

about an summers um going to O' Connell

Street. And I'd never done any media

before and I was uh invited

on the Late Late Show which is sort of

got a bit of a cult following.

Yeah.

And um

I was, you know, really nervous about

going on the show, but the producer took

me out to dinner and said, "It's going

to be great. You know, it's going to be

fine. You, you know, gave me lots of

reassurance." So when I got there uh and

I was sat in the green room, Michael

Crawford was on before me and uh for

those that don't know, he was a a

legend, iconic um comedian. He I could

hear him on stage, you know, he was

comedian, so he was telling jokes and

the audience were laughing and I'm

thinking, my god, what's it going to be

like when I go on, you know? So I went

on and I sat on the stage.

The presenter had a desk. I've sat I was

like at the head mistress's office. I'm

telling you. I sat there and all the

audience were uh you know it was a live

audience sort of tearshaped.

He did an interrupt introduction and

then he then said right we'll get Allan

uh to speak first and I'm like gosh they

never told me about this that Alan's

going to be on the show. Alan from the

council

from the council stood up at the front

of the stage and then starts you know

beating his chest telling everyone why

there shouldn't be an Ans summer store

in Dublin

and uh then of course it was my turn and

I I just told the story pretty much how

I told you about the sales at the

parties

first of all one woman at the very back

at the highest level stood up and she's

pointing down at Alan like this don't

you dare tell us where we can and can't

shop. And it was fabulous cuz once one

person did it, others did it. And

despite us being served a Rit on the

first day of opening,

um the Dublin store is now in our top

three performing stores and it's also on

the tourist bus route.

Oh wow.

Which, you know, because of that story,

which

I think, you know, for me is great.

Served a writ.

A writ. Yeah. So we were taken to court.

We won the court case. We got damages

uh because they tried to stop us from

opening

and someone sent you a bullet in the

post after the show.

Oh, sorry. Yes, the bullet in the post

that arrived anonymously obviously a

week before I was due to fly out to

Dublin.

And how did that feel?

um very frightening

but

I just felt I've I've had to deal with a

lot of challenges within the business a

lot of preconceived ideas to me I felt

like I was being bullied and it was

actually before before bullying was even

a thing it but that's how I felt and I

felt so strongly about what I wanted to

do that nothing was going to stop me and

I Actually,

I did get a somebody a security person

to meet me at the airport and you know

that was but that was about it. That's

what I did.

You became CEO of an summers in what

year was that? Do you remember? I don't

but I was in my 20ies still I think

really becoming a CEO in your 20ies is

not easy [clears throat]

especially if you're going to be

completely honest especially if you're a

woman especially in that time in that

era when there is so much discrimination

um tell me about cuz I also became a CEO

in my 20ies tell me about the

discrimination that a woman CEO in that

era experiences that I would not know

about?

Well, there's there's two as always

there's two answers to this question if

that's okay. The first one is about

being

there were very few business women. So

about being a woman in business,

you know that you'd meet somebody uh at

a meeting and they would assume that

your colleague if they were a man

they would [clears throat] start talking

to them. So there was that assumption

and I think there is a possibility that

still goes on now. Um and actually I as

you can tell I'm quite I'm only 5' one.

I looked younger than I was at 21. And

well you're only 25 now. So that's

unbelievable.

So I was only two then. Um and my

managing director was very tall.

Although she was a woman she was very

tall. So there is this bias that if

you're if you're short and female that

you can't possibly be running the

business. But then I I still have that

now. So a few years ago I was speaking I

was doing the uh keynote speak at the

retail live show and I was I remembered

I was interviewing Baroness Neville Rolf

on stage um about her role in in

business and some of the challenges that

we were experiencing that the industry

was experiencing and I was just walking

the boards basically getting myself

comfortable. Some guy came over and he

said I've still got I've still not got

my slides. I'm I'm looking at him. He

said, "I'm I'm on in half an hour and

I've still not got my I said I'm I'm

speaking. Oh." And then he just walks

off as if that's Oh,

[ __ ] hell.

And And um another example, I've got to

tell you this one. I jump on the train

at the last minute with a first class

ticket.

Oh, I've been there.

Have you?

I know exactly.

You know what I'm going to say.

Yeah.

I'm at London Bridge. All the city boys

are sitting in there. The train is full.

And I'd just I'd just come down for

Sheffield and just managed to get my um

connection. I was dressed casual

and I said to this guy, "Could could you

move over? Uh could you just move over,

please, so I can sit there?" He said,

"Have you got a first class ticket?"

And I looked at him and I said, "You're

kidding me, aren't you?" He said, "No.

Have you got a first class ticket?" I

said, "I'm not answering that."

And so he reluctantly moved over and I

sat down. But he then carried on

and and I'm saying, you know, this is

this is sexist. How many other how many

of these city guys sitting in here have

you asked?

Then the guy next to me said to who's on

on the other side of the aisle said,

"Just show him your ticket. You know,

just start arguing. Just show him your

ticket."

And the woman in front of me was doing

this. [sighs and gasps]

I'm like, [laughter] "Don't calm me

down.

Don't calm me down." And that's the

problem we need. You know, that's one of

when people say it's job done. It is not

job done. It really isn't job done.

Those are the rare instances where you

get to see it. But most of it you don't

get to see, right? Most of that um

discrimination is invisible. because it

will be small decisions compounding

against you because of discrimination

over decades and decades and decades.

Those are the instances where you can go

hm [clears throat] that was clear

prejudice because that was just me.

Um I read that there was a bullying

culture and summers in the early I heard

that

oh for me okay yeah sorry I thought you

meant during my

not now [laughter]

but but that you um you kind of

transformed that because you didn't like

that. Yes.

Yeah.

And again, that was before bullying was

a thing. So, we have a parent company

called Gold Group International, and

that person worked in that part of the

business. Um, and

you know, and he wasn't the only person.

There were others

and and bullying was um entertainment.

In those days, there wasn't the open the

open um culture that we have in

businesses today. People wouldn't speak

up. You know, they they would assume

they're not going to be listened to or

um but I, you know, I knew it was going

on and I thought this is this is not

this is not how I want the business to

be. So, that was that was actually very

very early on.

And you have a no sort of tolerance

approach to that.

Yeah. I mean, I just don't I get to hear

about, you know, we're small enough that

I get to hear about most things and uh

that that's not something I hear about

and if if we did, we'd be all over it.

I ask I ask all my guests this question.

You know, you've built this tremendous

business. It's hugely successful and

it's really, as you said, it's more than

just a financial success because it's

been a almost like a social success.

It's been a societal success because

it's kind of led a um perception shift.

It's dismantled a stigma which I think

as you've described from the atmosphere

you describe at these early parties was

like liberating for people to be able to

be open and um speak freely about

sexuality and sex which was taboo at one

point. Um but a consequence of my point

is the consequence of business success

is um financial success and what role

has that played in your in in your life

generally as it relates to your

fulfillment and everything in between.

financial success. I mean obviously

financial success is something

you know that as a society I'm not

saying as a an individual but as a

society we recognize as

you know one of the elements of success

and you know certainly in my

younger time that was you know the more

sales the more bottom line all of these

things were symbols of success that I

recognized and I I started the female

female empowerment almost from the day I

started but didn't realize it. So or I

didn't I realized but I didn't realize

the relevance of it or the importance of

it or how groundbreaking it was going to

be. You know I wanted to create an

environment that was for women. I could

see why I wanted to do that and I wanted

women to feel safe. I wanted them to be

open. As time has evolved, that passion

for doing that has evolved along with so

many other things. You know, that to me

is what gives me the pleasure more than

having nice clothes or or whatever. You

know, just the financial independence

that I've given hundreds of thousands of

women, you know, during lockdown, we had

women earning £30,000. We were giving

out checks of £30,000 a month.

Obviously, not to everybody, but to our

top performers. I mean it was like who'd

have thought we could be we would be in

a position to do that. I mean that's

that was fantastic.

Sexual empowerment for every woman

became something that was really

important to me in the last 10 years you

know uh 5 years that's that's broadened

even further to what we consider to be

every woman. You know, our

[clears throat] last campaign, for

example, which I was at, our Halloween

campaign, you know, we had trans, we had

an amputee,

we had

slim girls, we had curve girls, we had

models, we had customers, you know,

involved in this campaign. And that is

what every woman is. And that

is something I really love. So

yeah, money is money is nice because we

it makes us feel secure. Um it it we're

able to treat ourselves. We're able to

do nice things. Um you know, I feel I've

worked really really hard and you know I

feel I'm you know it's nice it's nice to

have nice things and do nice things and

I feel very privileged.

But for me, having that legacy, which is

far more important to me, that for me,

female empowerment is is what I stand

for and I want to put my stake in the

ground and really own it.

I was thinking there as you talked a

little bit about the pandemic. Um

[clears throat]

much of the reason why I started this

podcast was to highlight um the the more

untold parts of like CEOs and

professional people and successful

people's um journeys because a lot of

it's glamorized these days and

entrepreneurship is seen as quite a very

aspirational thing to a younger

generation who can create you know

companies using their mobile phone now.

But what was the um if when I say like

the worst day in business like what's

the day that comes to mind for you?

The hardest day.

The hardest day was when the Boris

Johnson announced that all stores would

have to close,

retail would have to close. There was no

mention at that stage of furow schemes

of rates holidays.

Um,

you know, there was

no

mention of deals to be done with

landlords or what the future held.

I I honestly was in shock that day.

Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine

that cuz I don't work in that industry.

just that the prime minister announcing

that you have to close your business and

not offering any kind of hope.

And I you know and I went on I mentioned

to you earlier I went on the

on the on the retail calls and

most companies

their their um

their level of cash was low. I mean most

companies based on what we were offered

at that time was

you know you didn't have more than 3

months cash

so then they of course brought out the

sibles loan

but

and I think it was 80% guarantee

we needed that to be 100% guarantee

because there were so many so many um

companies were refused credit

um because the banks were so scared. So

that was, you know, you you you thrown a

lifeline and then, you know, we we did

this for about there was about 9 months

of of,

you know, constantly being thrown

lifelines that then didn't materialize

or weren't applicable to you.

In those um difficult moments um we turn

to our partners in life. you know, they,

you know, many occasions bear the brunt

of that chaos at home.

How's your, you know, talk to me about

your home life and how you've as a CEO

of a business that's gone through things

like that, how you've managed to

maintain

[clears throat] a healthy relationship

um with your husband um throughout all

of this because I think I need some

advice. [laughter]

[sighs]

Well, you know, it's interesting as he

was asking the question because and and

[clears throat] I'm definitely not

judging here. I'm just saying that my

I mean I I have a wonderful marriage. I

have a lovely husband.

But when I was going through health

issues,

you know, let's say, you know, he he

wasn't the best. He tried, but it's a

very very difficult thing to go through

and it spurns up a lot of emotions. And

I think there were times that he he was

brilliant and times that he didn't, you

know, handle [clears throat] things as

well. And I'm sure anybody listening

would know they've either been in this

space or

have been in my position.

Can I ask cuz I don't want to make that

mistake in my life. What what what's um

what was missing in terms of

I think it's the emotional support.

Okay. I think that's what men struggle

with um perhaps in those situations

because um

I and I think he's so used to me being

strong. That's what it is. And he said

that to me at the time. He is so used to

me being strong and resilient as you

said earlier. And I was strong and

resilient but there was a vulnerability

about me because obviously I was having

having treatment that was debilitating.

um you know and I think he struggled

with that. I think having you know at

one point you know I I couldn't see I

couldn't feel my feet um I was sleeping

most of the time obviously struggled

with nausea and I'd lost my hair so that

is

you can understand why anybody would

find that difficult

but in business

when I have business challenges is he,

you know, he's remarkably supportive.

As many of you know, I'm in the process

of making conscious switches in my life.

And one of the sort of big switches

that's happening in my life at the

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talked as well at the very start of this

conversation about um the passing of one

of your ch children.

Um, another [clears throat] sort of

inconceivable thing to uh experience.

You said at the start you've experienced

a lot of like misfortune in your life.

I mean, that's right up there with

things that everybody hopes will never

happen to them.

Are you are you comfortable to talk

about about that?

Um,

yeah, I'm okay.

So, you you have you had IVF?

Yes.

Tell me about that process. I I've

learned, you know, I've it's it's it's

interesting because if it weren't for

this podcast

and some of the guests that I've sat

here with who have gone through the IVF

process and

that had that process fail for them,

as a young man, I would not have a clue

about any of that. And you know what? I

also wouldn't have a clue about the

struggles that um some women face um to

become a parent. [clears throat]

Um, so whatever you can tell me about

that process and that experience, I'd be

incredibly grateful for.

Well, obviously it's not just women that

struggle. It's men as well, which I

think can be very difficult for some,

you know, for men. I think they find

that

harder.

Of course.

Certainly when I went through the IVF, I

mean, it's 12 years a 12 years ago now.

So again, it wasn't talked about like it

is now. And that stigma makes it even

more difficult and you know makes

everybody involved feel you know

there's something wrong with you and it

can be so many different things you know

and it's I don't think it's just a given

that people just fall pregnant and the

journey I went on is I did three IVFs

in this country

everything was if you fall pregnant if

you know if we can make an appointment

here if we can do that. Everything was

an if and felt a bit negative. And then

I had to um one of the things I had to

do was or we had to do as a couple. We

had to see a counselor. I think I I

don't know if that's still part of the

process, but you have to see a

counselor.

And halfway through the counseling

session, the counselor started having a

go at me.

What the hell?

Yeah. She was saying, "You're very

intense." I'm like, "Well, I'm just I'm

just hanging. I'm listening to

everything you're saying and I'm

interested and she was it felt like she

was threatened by me. She felt

uncomfortable with me. It was just a

very negative approach. And then our

fourth so we we had a break for about 2

years and then decided to go again and

this time we went to San Francisco

and everything was when when you fall

pregnant when this happens.

Oh really?

Yeah. We can make this appointment. Call

me anytime. No, nothing's a problem. And

I just think we are

maybe things have changed and you know

this was I was fortunate to use a

private clinic but there was still this

we're very cautious. We're so cautious

in in Britain but that adds to the

anxiety. Definitely.

One might even go as far as saying that

reduces the chance of success.

Absolutely.

We talked about having an optimism bias.

I'm totally I'm totally convinced of it.

totally convinced and the disappointment

every time we failed was overwhelming.

You know, there's this blame like who's

who's at fault here? You know, it is a

very difficult it's a very difficult

journey to go on. Very difficult.

And the San Francisco procedure was

successful.

Yes. And I

I then found out I was pregnant with

twins, which was a shock.

Um, I didn't want to know what sex they

were.

And at my

first scan,

he just spent a long time on one on

one of the the babies.

I didn't really notice. It was my my

husband that noticed something must be

wrong.

Um,

and afterwards the radiographer said to

us, "I'm sorry, but one of the

one of the fetuses is uh has a

he used words like an abnormal brain,

um,

a morbid outcome, and I think I can

still pronounce the condition, but it

the condition that Alfie had was Alo

Halo bar Holland press and carefully

which

is basically

he just has enough brain to live

and um

to hear that

well in in fact I didn't think he was

going to make the pregnancy. They said

he he I was told he wouldn't make 19

weeks, but

um of course he did. He he went through

to birth and that was very difficult for

me because I had

grieved for him when he was in the womb.

So it was a big shock to me when he was

born

and I found bonding with him difficult

at first. I found

um

diffic I found it difficult

going to the hospital.

Um I I was in hospital for a week

um before I was able to go home. Um I'd

had a cesarian. It was a two-hour it was

a two-hour journey and I obviously would

take Scarlet with me. Um but that was a

very difficult time, a very difficult

time for me and he was in hospital for

quite some time.

And then eventually

we had the confidence to move him out of

a home, out of the hospital and into a

fantastic home called the Children's

Trust in Tadworth. And then I think that

was when I was able to start to build a

relationship with him. [clears throat]

But nothing prepares you for that.

Nothing prepares you for that.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just

unthinkable.

And you know, as hard as this is to

hear, you know, he was born in pain. And

to hear your son

born crying in pain, not as a any other,

you know, that was that was just the

worst thing on earth.

That the impact that has on

a relationship as well, a marriage.

Oh god, it's just so many there's so

many feelings, right? You know, they

say,

you know, it it's ironic that the the

going through the IVF

probably,

you know, caused arguments and drove us

apart,

but

when we had our our son and and he was,

you know, obviously

in hospital and then in at the

Children's Trust and with this

devastating illness,

um it pulled us together and my husband,

you know, was absolutely amazing. And I

mean, to have a strong person by your

side in the worst situation you could

ever have,

but on the, you know, we did manage to

Scarlet was able to spend lots of time

with him. We were able to take lots of

lovely video footage of him. He was

looked after so well there and all of

the sensory treatment they they give is

amazing and you know now

um

we have all of of Alfie's memories and

you know I've kept a pirates box for him

and um

you know he's very much part of

Scarlet's life even though he's not

here.

Thank you for your honesty there. it um

I think it's just tremendously uh

valuable and eye opening and it's a

window that into a um a set of life

events that few um few are um

misfortunate enough to experience but um

I'm glad I'm just very uh glad that you

find the confidence to

give us that because yeah these are

things that you know people are naive to

unless they go through them and I think

a lot of the things that you've talked

about day. Um people are naive too

unless they go through them. Um so

sharing it okay like for me is never

going to make me understand fully but I

think it gives me a ton of empathy

towards um the people that go through

those situations. So thank you for that.

Um, something else you you you mentioned

at the start of this conversation was

about a nanny. And I I wrote that down

because it was a slightly obscure thing

to hear, but I wanted to come back to it

just before we we conclude, which was

that you were poisoned by a nanny.

I've been very unlucky, haven't I?

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, I mean, this was bizarre. This

was bizarre.

This is like a movie.

I had this nanny. Uh it was when Alfie

was

uh obviously in the home. So I needed

all the help I could get and um

I trusted her implicitly with my

daughter

and I had a really good relationship

with her. I liked her. She was a lovely

girl um

and you know very reliable etc.

I also had a lady that used to sort of

pop in with and do odd jobs and while I

was going through that period without

the fee, she would also prepare our

meals. So all I had to do uh before

HelloFresh and Gust, it's what I had to

do to um you know, she'd just make it

easier for me. And uh what I didn't know

was that she and the nanny didn't get

on.

And

the nanny instead of coming to me and

saying, "Look, I've got a problem here.

Can we talk about it?"

She thought the best

tactic would be to get the the cook the

sack.

So she thought, "I know. I'll start off

by putting uh copious amounts of sugar

in in in the food after she's prepared

it.

So, I came home from work and I'm sat

there and uh um

cooked dinner. Everything seems fine.

And we had fish. And when we sat down to

eat the fish, the sauce tasted like

custard. [laughter]

Um but you know the first time it

happens you think maybe she acts I don't

know maybe she's just used the wrong

pot.

Yeah.

Then the second time few weeks later

same thing happened again. This time it

was salt

and I thought there's something wrong

here.

Um, and

I want I obviously needed to talk to the

to the lady that was doing the food. So,

that's what I'd arranged to do.

But before I had chance to speak to her,

um,

the nanny was taking my daughter to Blue

Water and I'd left my lunch at home

and so I called her. And I said, "You

wouldn't drop it in for me, would you?"