you know when we organized this this

event we we just wanted to be the answer

look look at the most important

questions that we are facing at that

time and this was 5 months ago and we

thought some of it might be AI but it it

turned out to be AI is is everywhere so

I'm I'm not going to beat around the

bush the two of you are very similar in

many ways you have

not like that

you've you you've run or are running

large organizations. You you're building

brands that developers love and and use

and and are engaged with. Thomas, you're

now starting something completely new.

So, you're also doing something

completely different. What is an AI

first or AI native team mean to you? And

I'll start with you Rajie.

>> Sure. F first of all, Gerge, thank you

for inviting me and uh thanks everyone

for coming. It's the energy here is just

palpable. So like it's really great to

be here and um I'm I'm really excited to

be talking about, you know, AI native

stuff. Everyone wants to talk about AI

these days. So it's fun. Um but what

does an AI native team look like? Um

well, first of all, you know, it starts

with the mindset, right? You have to

sort of really believe in uh doing AI

native work and working with agents and

things like that. We have teams at

Atlassian engineering teams, some of

which are still doing the more

traditional way of of coding and

building software because we do have

legacy systems that take that. But we

have a number of AI native teams where

engineers are basically writing zero

lines of code. It's all agents. It's

orchestration of agents. Um what we are

finding is the lines are blurring

between PM design and engineering where

uh PMs are writing code, designers are

writing code. This is basically leading

to more productivity generally speaking.

And u the thing I find is that the teams

are not necessarily getting smaller but

they are producing a lot more sometimes

2x 5x more and uh the creativity is

going up. What you build is is much more

creative. You can put in like

screenshots of things and design you

know more modern UX um and and then you

can also between PMs designs and

engineers the the distance is shrinking

as well. So that's making for more uh

vigorous conversation and more

creativity. I find that the discussion

about using AI to produce more

efficiency and maybe smaller teams and

fewer engineers is missing the point.

It's more about what can you create now

with AI that you could not create before

and how can you be that much more

productive and how can you have that

much more joy.

You know, I think there's multiple

answers to this. Rajie gave one of them.

If I think about the word AI native in

the same context as cloud native, um

when GitHub started in 2008, nobody

spoke about cloud native. It is a term

that was introduced after the fact after

in identifying how all these companies

reinvented how they're deploying and and

and developing systems. And I think the

same is going to be true for AI native.

What we're calling AI native now is

going to be very different than uh what

is going to be AI native in a few years.

And I have two two boys 13 and 11 and

most of the time they're playing

Minecraft. Sometimes I can also convince

them to code but certainly they are AI

native. You know, one day they came

home, I think it was a year or two ago,

and they showed me their cell phones and

they had like puppy images on the on the

front p on the home screen and they use

Adobe Firefly to generate these images.

And I'm like, how the hell did you find

Adobe Firefly? Oh, everybody in school

is using it. And I think that's the AI

native generation, those that are

growing up now with these agents. For

them, it will be just so natural to use

an agent instead of going to, you know,

a Google search or I mean trying to find

it to do the the traditional way. And I

think if we're all honest to ourselves,

you know, there's a lot of sorry

out there of how all dayto-day

is a native and I'm using agents for

everything. You know, I'm a startup

founder. Most of the time I'm still

dealing with HR systems and my my month

and close and getting, you know, uh,

directors of board insurance and that's

a form that I have to fill out. No agent

helps me with any of that. And if you

hear that in podcast, I'm like, "Sure,

sure, sure." You know, like in theory

that is my life. But in reality, h you

know, yesterday we announced uh my my

company. Since then, I got like hundreds

of emails from investors that want to

absolutely still angel invest into the

seat round. People that have 12 years of

experience are the best developers, you

know, on the planet, yet they're sending

me an email to to apply for a job. And

and I'm I'm looking for the agent that

solves all that for me instead of just

trying to figure out how can I be both

nice human to give them response, but

also let them know that I'm not

interested in, you know, that

conversation right now because I want to

build a company. So I think that's the

like the the c qu crux of AI native

teams today in a software development.

Yes, we're going to use cloud code or or

some agent to build code, but no, we're

not going to feed Markdown files into

that. Like 3,000 software engineers all

collaborating on markdown, that is a

nightmare, right? Um if you have then

folks in Germany, you know, that speak

English with an accent or in Spain or in

India and China and whatnot that don't

actually are as fluent in English, it's

actually an even worse nightmare because

programming language is great. It

reduces vocabulary on like 20 words that

everybody can speak. As soon as you have

to describe a feature in a language that

you don't actually think in, it's really

really hard. And I think we haven't

figured any of that out.

>> And how are your teams today using

tools? How have their workflows changed?

>> I think the biggest change in the

workflow is that um you basically most

uh uh developers that start Greenfield

from scratch today and and have used

cloud code is that they force themselves

to not look at the code. uh and that

basically it starts with

>> that that's happening at your teams

right

>> that's happening I think that's

happening everywhere in the industry

like in all the people I'm interviewing

uh whether they work at Microsoft GitHub

or Atlassian or thought works or or

block or so

>> easy with the poaching there

>> well I'm

all coming to me you know

>> but all Thomas yeah

>> well you know um you a third about a

third of the our team of my startup

entire is Australian because one of the

co-founders um is actually um went to

high school with me in East Berlin and

then immigrated to Australia. Um and so

the Australian press didn't uh um um let

that uh opportunity go to a little

bit on Atlassian yesterday when the

announcement came uh because your stock

price is down and whatnot has nothing to

do with us. But of course, you know,

that's not how the press works. Um

>> it's all the sad stuff, you know.

>> Yeah. H anyway, um where was I? um

developers, you know, that want to be AI

native, what they're doing is try to

look at little as code as pos at the

code as possible and force yourselves to

figure it out with a prompt and a

reasoning process and and voicing

intent, right? And then same way with

code review ideally, you know, I never

read the code line by line because

that's going to become increasing

bottleneck. I have like cursor buckbot

or or one of these tools point out the

mistakes to me and I'm waiting for the

moment and I think uh uh a previous

session alluded to this that let's just

have the code review bot or agent work

with the coding agent. Why would you

need the human in the middle of that?

And I think that's where that the what

the the most AI native developers are

right now is the ones that uh have

figured out how to do that and that is a

skill in itself and that's I think

answering the question are we going to

replace humans with agents? No, we are

upleveling the humans to become the the

masters of these of these agents. Yeah.

And on tools I think like the there's

two parts to it right. is that coding

and implementation is becoming free to

the point where the bottleneck is

shifting to what I call the left of code

and the right of code on the left of

code it's about planning and specking

and there increasingly one of the tools

we are using in a classion a lot is

confluence because confluence is where

the intent and the spec and yes it's

mostly English language and Thomas makes

a good point about language but um

that's where you are putting in really

what you want to build uh especially for

product oriented engineers they're going

in and putting in a lot of comments and

our agents are able to read the comments

and go off in a Ralph loop and you know

solve things which is really amazing. uh

but yeah left of code and then right of

code it's the standard stuff CI/CD

deployment incidents sees how do you

find that out so using agents to do that

is is what we're doing so I'd say we are

looking at it holistically across the

entire software development life cycle

we call it the AI native SDLC all the

way from ideation to coding to like

deployment in production we we are

changing the tool set quite a bit

>> okay what about rooev tell me what

roboev is

>> yeah yeah yeah so roboev is a coding

agent but it's also our brand for like

doing uh things across the entire SDLC.

So we using it for code reviews, we're

using it for CI/CD, we are using it for

uh incident resolution.

>> So you built your own coding agent.

>> Yes. Uh now here interesting thing is we

are using anthropics model. Uh but in

the benchmark we actually beat plot

code. Uh which is sounds amazing. How

does how do you do that using their

model? Well, it comes down to one magic

word which is context. Um agents are as

smart as the context you give. And in

Atlassian we have built what is called

the teamwork graph which is you know who

does Thomas work with on which um PR on

which issue in Jira and that context

really helps uh rob do a much better job

with the PR it produces

what is happening with distributed teams

Thomas you mentioned that your team is

spread across a bunch of different time

zones which is super unusual for a early

stage startup usually the conventional

wisdom is like be in the same office

you're going to be riffing at the each

Why did you decide to go distributed and

does AI have to do anything with this?

>> First of all, I want to say, you know, I

I'm a strong believer of everybody needs

to find their own happiness, right? And

there's just similar to the relationship

that you have in your personal life,

it's same with the relationship you have

with your company. There is not one

perfect approach. And if you want to

work in a company that has a beautiful

office in San Francisco, great. You want

to work in a hybrid scenario, also

great. And I love working in remote

teams because I love traveling. Uh I

love the 247 coverage if you have people

in Australia, in Germany, in Spain, uh

in Lisbon and uh UK, whatever in in in

United States in the different time

zones. And that makes my life happy and

doesn't mean that anybody else is wrong

in in how they're running the company.

Um what it does though is if you have a

remote team is that you're lonely,

right? And lonely in might be in the

kind of like co alone at home sense, but

also in the who is available for me to

ask the question. And it's much easier

to do that in an office environment

because you can kind of figure out well

Gerley is only you know surfing on X and

and and posting and whatnot and uh so I

can ask him a question and um never

never and and uh and and in the same

time if you're busy in a conversation

with Rajie then obviously I won't run

into the conference room and ask you hey

can you do this code review for me and I

think agents basically gave us these

bearings partners these e experts that I

can just ask and say hey I want to

brainstorm on this topic I need to write

an ADR or like solve a problem. You

know, I was uh over the weekend

preparing a launch. So, I figured out I

need not only a terms of service and a

privacy policy, I also need a cookie

policy. So, I was trying to figure out

how do I do that in the React app and I

just asked Cursor Composer to do that

for me and it was done in 3 seconds,

right? And I think that's the the remote

work um with the help of agent has

gotten a new level that wasn't possible

before because I have always somebody

available my code review agent my coding

agent know my brainstorming agent my

research agents all these kind of things

and then I and I think that's for us the

huge benefit especially if you have

these launch days right if you everybody

in the same time zone in the same office

at some point you need to go home like

that's just the reality if you have

folks in Australia by the time it's 6

p.m. here it's like noon or something in

Melbourne and so they're still working

and maintaining you know the engagement

on discord and and the open source

project. I think in some ways you know

agents have gotten as an advantage again

you know for being remote first uh and

that you know other teams that work in

the office together you know have on on

their side when when they can brainstorm

in front of whiteboard. It evened out a

little bit of the competitive

disadvantage that certainly has evolved

here in San Francisco as most of the AI

native companies have gotten back into

office.

>> And Reie, how are you seeing this cuz

you've been you have distributed teams.

Is it changing?

>> Yeah. Um well, we have we are actually

Atlassian has been uh leaning into

distributed teams way before like even

before COVID. So when actually co

happened it was super natural for us to

um to be in that kind of situation. Our

software naturally is for collaboration

across distributed teams that we're not

remote. We have offices. We have offices

in San Francisco, in Sydney, in in

different parts of the world. So we do

believe in like that intentional

togetherness you get when human beings

come together and and work together. So

we're not like a remote only, remote

first kind of company. But uh we don't

mandate you coming into the office. We

like you can work from anywhere. We call

it team anywhere. You can work from

anywhere. You can work with people. And

to Thomas's point, I think agents have

changed things a lot. Like I remember

the days when I was in the office at 2

a.m. writing code and you get stuck and

all you can do is like read the code and

read the code more until you understand

it and figure it out. Uh well now you

can ask an agent and the agent can

explain it for you or even better do the

code for you. So I think with agents

it's gotten even better and easier for

us to be able to be distributed in this

in this fashion.

And you know like a big thing that we're

all seeing you're seeing it as well the

role of software engineer changing and

the role of the engineing leader the

engineing manager changing from your

vantage point what are you seeing

happening so far what do you expect and

especially looking at at last are are

you are you doing any change in in terms

of like defining the role or thinking

about or relaxing some of the things

that you've kind of had had in place

before? Yeah, we we think about it in

terms of like uh what changes with

respect to ownership, accountability,

things like that, right? And what we're

finding is it's less about code

ownership. It's more about like now the

artifacts are shifting to things like

Confluence and Jira and even Loom. We

have a lot of uh interaction through a

product we acquired called Loom that's

now partian product and you can express

a lot more uh intent and thoughts and

video and so feeding that into our AI

agents and using that to produce better

artifacts. um the ownership is shifting

towards that and then the accountability

part is increasing as well instead of

like a lot of code reviews and trying to

understand whether the code is good

which you still have to do but the

agents help you it's about verification

right uh what are the guardrails what

are the inputs and outputs that you want

to verify that so that you know that the

AI code is good and that the agents have

done a good job uh that's where the

ownership and accountability is shifting

and so that's that's how we are thinking

about it but in terms of team structures

and managers and PMs and designers and

engineers we aren't

thinking we're not doing like radical

changes yet. What we are focusing on is

that team structure, that team that's

producing the feature. How can they do

more? How can they be more creative? Uh

we're not going down the path of saying,

"Oh, let's do it, you know, with fewer

people necessarily." That's not the

biggest thing. In some cases, we do find

10x even 100x more productivity and we

then reshape the team for that. But our

angle is more how do you unleash more

creativity and how do you do more?

>> Can you tell me a tiny bit more when you

say like you see more productivity team

and you reshape the team for that? What

could that mean or what does that mean?

Well, we've tried some projects where uh

we are like, hey, what if we didn't

write any code manually? Like what does

that look like? Right? And uh that

forces you to think differently. That

forces you to organize a repo

differently. That forces you to um set

up the rules for the agents differently.

The agents uh don't have enough context.

When you have a repo with full of code,

it can start off in a better place. And

so that forces you to sort of really be

AI native AI first. And we're finding

that in those cases, we make a lot of

progress. You can get real good

productivity. But if you have a legacy

codebase uh that has been around for a

long time, it's not as easy, right? We

find that, you know, it takes a lot more

effort and things like that. And so we

have done a lot of progress with Robo

Dev, but it's not yet at the point where

you can give it like a complex project

on a legacy codebase. And I think that's

a hard problem that a lot of people are

working on. I think we'll get there very

soon, but that's an area where you can't

go and and be as aggressive.

Yeah. I have two angles on this. I think

one is, you know, we we're constantly in

this problem that we have way too many

ideas in life and way too many things to

do. You know, one of my jokes is that

when you're single, your Saturday

morning is great. You have all the plans

for the weekend. When you're married

with kids, uh all the plans that you had

on Saturday morning didn't happen by

Sunday night because your family

determined what you're actually doing

over the weekend. And the same is true

in software projects. And the way we're

solving this is we're writing things

down in to-do lists and we're moving

them into linear backlogs. and your

backlog gets longer and longer and

somebody just throw it all away and

start fresh and bring up the same ideas

again. And what we're now doing with

agents, we're shifting this one step to

the right where we just feed all of that

into agents and agents write all the

code and now you have your backlog and

your pull requests. And there's the

bottleneck now because you can't review

all of that. Uh, and then are going to

be agents that review all that code and

auto merge and auto deploy it. And what

you get is the Homer Simpsons car,

right? because all the ideas you had,

you know, without without any process

and any creativity and and and product

management and whatnot leads to products

that have lots of features that look

like Homer Simpson. I don't everybody

has that picture in your head. The the

flip side of that is, you know, that and

then obviously we need to so that we

still need product managers and

designers and engineers to actually

architect products that are really

great. And um every time you're using a

product that's not great, you know,

exactly that that's the case, right?

Like that's it's easier for us to find

something bad than finding something

good. At the same time, I think we're

seeing going to see a massive role

collapse um between the traditional

engineering roles, right? Um you're not

the pragmatic product product manager

and the product designer, but I actually

think the product manager is becoming a

product engineer and the designer is

becoming a design engineer and the

software engineer stays a software

engineer. And so the ven diagram of

these roles is overlapping much more.

I think it was this morning's session or

maybe it was the off the record session

yesterday, but uh we're seeing a lot of

that where product managers in companies

um are now forced to as an as an

expectation of their job to use a coding

agent to build a prototype instead of

just writing a document and handing it

off. Now that's the obvious part of

this, but it's also true for your

marketer, for your coms people, for your

assistant. all those folks are already

using lovable or ripple it or any of

these tools to actually automate part of

their life. And then the question

becomes is it the bad cop uh like in the

I think it was in the Phoenix project

that blocks everybody from deploying or

do we find ways in the organizations to

actually let everybody be a builder and

and contribute to back to what

ultimately is the goal of every

organization which is as a team together

we are much more powerful than as

individuals right that's the Dutch

trading company philosophy if if you go

back where companies come from and we

have to find these processes and I think

that's the thing that we haven't really

figured out of how in a secure way and

uh trustworthy A we can ship amazing

products, you know, by moving much

faster through the life cycle while at

the same time empowering everybody in

the company to to do so.

>> And we we've talked about this is the

engineer role and of course like how the

designers and and product managers are

getting closer. What about the

engineering leader? You know, you you've

got a lot of outstanding engineering

leaders inside at Lash and how do you

see their roles changing and you know

Thomas like as you're going to be

hiring, who would you hire for? Like

before you would have obviously hired

for every 10 engineers like an engine

manager or something like that. How how

will that change for you? So I'll I'll

start off with you Rajie.

>> Yeah, I think one of the most exciting

things for engineering leaders including

myself is we can write more code now.

Like you know um I love writing code. I

I over the holidays you know bought a

laptop and you know because sometimes

you can't install things because of it

but like Iought

I bought my own personal laptop at the

Apple store installed cloud code and you

know built an app bunch of Python

scripts and things like that. Um and and

you know for someone who has grown up

writing code for my bar for my own code

is super high like as it is for all my

engineers and so like for me to take a

time out to go and build a whole new

feature it it's it's a lot of time in

the old traditional way but now I can do

it much faster with robo dev with with

agents and things like that and it's

always satisfying to go join a hackathon

build something and write code and so

for all the leaders I think it's like

you know you can get a lot more

connected because sometimes as a leader

you go up the chain and then you get

more disconnected from code and

engineers and now I think that is that

gap is shrinking. The other thing that's

interesting that's happening is the span

of control is changing. I've always

advocated for you know the the

degenerate case of where you have a team

of 400 engineers. You take the square

root of 400 and you have essentially 20

direct reports each having 20 direct

reports and then it's just two layers of

management. Uh but usually most most

organizations have people who have like

five or three reports that most

degenerate cases the binary tree right

two reports two reports two reports all

the way down. Um but I think the span of

controls will increase. I think you know

Tibo I think talked about having 33

direct reports. You know Jensen talks

about

>> 33. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Having like 40 or 50. Yeah.

I think like people will have more

direct reports and fewer managers and

managers will be more connected with the

quotes. I think all of this is really a

good thing.

>> As a followup, what about the

traditional career path? traditional oh

my gosh I'm talking like you know like

pre like 2020 2022 because we were used

to there was a career path like be a you

know software engineer senior engineer

then either staff engineer engine

manager senior engine manager director

senior director etc. What do you think

might happen just in taking educated

guess?

>> Well, first of all, um you know, anytime

somebody asks me about career path as an

engineer, but the first thing I tell

people is don't be a manager. Okay. Um

you know, in fact, I did that myself

when I started out. Somebody gave me

that advice. And so the for the first

many years of my career, I avoided being

a manager as far as I could um until I

found decisions being made that I didn't

understand. And so then I popped my head

up to see okay what the hell is

happening and that sort of thing and

then joined the dark side. But like um

you know

>> worked out pretty good in the end.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But uh I'd say like you know

for for engineers like I mean it's it's

it's a great time to be alive. Like I

would just write code, use agents,

figure this out, do all the advanced,

you know, cutting edge stuff for a

while. I mean we don't know where the

future is going but like you'll be fine

if you're an engineer writing code.

Managers and leaders, it's a little

tougher. I think there might be fewer of

them. I think uh it's exciting if you

are want to be hands-on that it's

amazing. Um I think there's less of like

leadership management blah blah blah.

It's more of like doing and like

figuring things out in this new world.

And those who do I think will do well.

Those who want to like stick to the old

career paths might have to find

something else.

I have three things. One, number one,

for all the startup founders. Every time

an investor asks you how they're

preventing the incumbent doing the same

thing that you're doing, just tell them

that the CTO of Atlassian had to buy a

laptop on his own money to start coding.

That's the best answer I can give

because it shows you how even, you know,

relatively agile companies that actually

develop agile tools, you know, can't

really do what you can do in 5 minutes.

Um, I I'll fix it. I'll fix it once I

acquire your company, Thomas. Oh, you

can you can get their assets. You can

get their assets and use them for

coding. Um, number two is I think what

happened in the last two years uh

through um coding agents like C-pilot,

Kursa and Devon is that many CTOs and

CIOS even in the largest banks in this

country and many other countries have

realized they can go back to coding

because it no longer takes hours to

install all the packages and figure out

all the problems. And so I actually I

have friends in that in that space that

told me stories of like on every night

they would give Devon a task and and say

Devon built me this and then on the

morning would check the check in with

the developer at the agent and then keep

going that way and then they have their

normal day-to-day as a as a CTO of a big

bank and you do that for two weeks and

you realize everything is going to

change and has to change in my

organization and in contrast to the you

know Twilio founders ask your developer

where the developer decides bottoms up

what the tools are. Those folks went

into the into their organization says I

don't want to hear any excuses. We're

going to roll out agents and you know um

many banks still are on very archive

systems and they have developers like to

Citrix and and what have you and often

the CTO was not empowered to override

this because of CISO concerns and and

what have you. And I think that has

dramatically changed because basic gets

our hands dirty again and realize how

powerful this technology is. And that

shift is happening. You see this

everywhere like no other software

development technology has been adopted

as fast as agents right like most German

companies you know Japanese companies

other international are still not in the

cloud uh because of all the kinds of

concerns that they heard from the legal

team security teams and whatnot and then

there's the third piece you know when

you ask about leadership and manager you

know when I became a manager um the

first time I became really manager was

when I my startup got acquired by

Microsoft because CEO of a 10 person

startup you're not actually a manager

you're just one of 10 and you're the

speaker and it has to do payroll and and

and pitch to customers and I became a

manager and I realized, oh god, now I

have to hire people, which means I have

to write a job description and do

interviews and I have to write

performance reviews. You know, when CHPT

came out, all of a sudden we just would

ask Chet PT to write the performance

review for us and of course the

employees did the same on their site and

if you have worked at Microsoft every

like the employee has to fill out like I

think seven input fields on their side

and then the manager has to react to

those seven input fields. And if you're

uh a lazy developer manager, you write I

agree with you and the employee is not

happy about that.

>> Hang on.

>> And so you kind of hack that system by

just asking Chatty which then in reverse

is then give me just the bullets that

you put into Chat GBT. So at least I

know how you're prompting.

>> So you became the CEO of GitHub with

this mentality.

>> You know that God does GitHub. you know

the you know the the the key um the key

I know pragma if you will or dogma um by

the way we are joking in the green room

I think the next one is the dogmatic

summit and so we have all the dogmas on

stage is much more entertaining I think

um is developers first right developers

first is what what we always said at

GitHub for everything we design for

every process for the marketing and when

we fail um you can see that a hacker

news is very very straight right like

when a GitHub blog post or GitHub tweet

or a message is too corporate, quote

unquote. Developers won't like that and

they don't want to have that. Um, give

me the truth, give me the direct

conversation, don't give me all the

marketing bull. That works for other

products, but it doesn't work for

developer tools, right? And I think the

same is true for being a people manager,

an engineering manager of a team, like

your team knows exactly whether you're

talking straight to them and giving them

the truth or whether you're sugar

coating that they're actually not doing

so well and you're kind of like trying

to tell give them the message that you

either improve or or you get the out,

right? And and and I think this is where

you know the AI is changing this because

this I'm spending an hour of writing a a

a pified you know summary of a

performance of course the engineer just

feeds that into chatbt backwards and

says what did Thomas actually mean and

did he use AI to write this and all of

that and I think this is this is a good

thing like you know when we when we

think about um AIdriven sales processes

hell I don't want an AI email from a

sales uh uh uh from a sales agent to

sell me some outsource ing company or

something like that. Just I want an AI

that deletes all that and tells them to

never contact me again, right? And I

think the same is true like for people

management. It's so much more it's so

much more enjoyable when you have a

relationship with your pe with your with

your team members, your IC's that's on

on an honest trustworthy basis like you

hopefully have you know with your spouse

at home and and your kids and whatnot.

And I think that is going to shift

because you can no longer cheat your way

as a people manager into being the

nicest manager of everybody while in

reality uh you you're having you're

struggling with all the problems in your

team.

>> I mean you heard it from the former the

last CEO of of GitHub you know

management might actually become like a

bit more enjoyable. Thanks for that.

looking at your current teams now, what

is the biggest change that's already

happened in in how you're working and

what do you expect to happen this coming

year?

>> Yeah, I I mean like clearly the biggest

change is agentic coding and using um

agents to do stuff like in Atlassian

rodev is used by all our engineers um

>> all the engineers.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Nice.

>> Yes. Uh code reviews. I mean every day I

see the percentage of you know diffs

that are through code reviews are

increasing quite a bit. um PRs per

engineer have gone up 89%. Issue cycle

time has got has gone down 42%. 51% of

security vulnerabilities are now cut

through agents. So we're seeing like

massive change in in our productivity

output metrics the Dora metrics all of

that is going up you know going well up

meaning well um because of agent

encoding and that sort of thing. And uh

more than the metrics I'd say like we

are we are really excited about how we

are working across PM design and

engineering because we build a lot of

products like Jira confluence and so

that that loop is very important for us

and we are finding that because uh PMs

are using like replet and things like

that they're producing actually better

specs that are much more uh aminable to

being close to the product that we want

easier for engineers to go implement and

so definitely seeing a lot of change.

What will happen in the future I think

is um this notion of building products

with actually zero lines of code manual

coding I would say uh because today it's

a mix of like some manual coding some

agents um I think we will get to the

point where we just trust the code

reviews done by the agents and not have

to have too much human review over that

um I think we move towards more

verification of inputs and outputs to

see the system performing according to

the right security reliability

performance bars less about inspection

of code and And then if I were to look

out I know that TB didn't want to look

out two years but if I look out two

years uh plus uh maybe we don't have

programming languages and IDEs anymore

and we have some kind of AI JVM or

something that just sort of does things

and because like if you think about it

programming languages are there because

like you know we don't want to write

assembly and we need something to tell

the computer what to do but like if AI

is able to do that and you know you're

able to debug using AI as well then it

shifts to a higher level intent and you

don't need maybe programming. Now that's

super extreme. I don't know if it'll go

there, but it is conceivable and so

that's really exciting to think about

what that word would look like. From the

CEO perspective, I think there's two

drastic changes. One is uh costs are

through the roof. Um and as everybody

who manages a larger team has some fixed

opex budget uh that is you know mostly

your salaries, your benefits and then

some travel and expenses, right? All of

a sudden, we have flexible token costs.

And the more productive you you had all

this impressive statistics, the more

productive your developers are, the more

your costs are going through the roof

and you actually create an inversion

where you have to slow down some

developers because they're burning so

many tokens and then they're like,

"Well, then I will build less features,

right?" And that's something that a

startup founder only deals with when

when the money runs out, the run rate

gets shorter. But a a big manager in a

in a corporation will actually have to

figure out with their with their finance

team, right? What the traditional

approach to this will no longer work.

and you actually want to encourage teams

to burn more tokens. And you talked in a

very early session this morning about

OpenAI's billions uh tokens and they

don't have to pay for them. Obviously,

that's not true. They're paying for the

GPUs to to Azure and and Oracle and and

whatnot. But that's I think a drastic

change to how we're managing teams. Um

that all of a sudden you had and look

what nobody wants to do is fire people

to offset the cost of the tokens, right?

Because the the human cost of that is is

way higher than the benefits. I think

the very positive version of that is

coding is fun again. And I, you know, I

learned coding on a Commodore 64 in the

early 1990s and then I had a 3860x40

with a turbo switch and a pensium and

whatnot. And I remember the days when I

couldn't solve any of my problems

because all I had was books and computer

club was only Wednesdays and you were

just stuck, right? And you went to bed

frustrated and and and uh and then in

the morning hopefully you had some, you

know, intuition of how to solve that

problem. Came the internet, came forums,

all of a sudden you could talk to

people. Now you can just in 3 seconds,

you know, ask the agents to figure it

out. And I think, you know, we're

underestimating the power of these

agents because we all think about code

generation. I think the best scenario is

actually have some stupid build error or

npm error or something on the terminal

and just feed that into codeex and say,

"Hey, go and solve this. I don't want to

deal with any of that." Right? I think

that's it's way more fun than it ever

was. Same for unit testing. Raise your

hand if you love wring unit tests.

Right? Like, oh, that's the one. Um uh

>> I'm I'm I'm looking for Ken back.

>> No, the the exception to the rule,

right? But like that that's so powerful

to just say write write me unit tests

and and or or fix the tests and and and

what have you. Coding is fun again and

it brings us back to when we learned

coding. I think what agents have done is

it bring us back to the joy of um uh

coding and I was at OpenAI a month ago

or so and they showed a couple of

builders the new Codex Mac app um and uh

made sure we're all in the NDA but now

the app is out so I can talk about it

and um was a bit you know food and and

presentation and then we all had some

coding time and I built three native Mac

apps like in Swift UI without ever

looking at the code right and and that's

just and I had a menu by app and

somebody was yesterday on X saying I

love building menu by apps on on Mac,

right? And it's so easy. And if you ever

tried that yourself in in going on, you

know, GitHub, Google, stack overflow,

whatever, have it even setting up just

the Xcode project to hide the doc icon

and have it only in the menu bar, you

you have given up and and the idea has,

you know, flown away by the time you

actually had the first build running.

And I think that's just so incredible.

And whether that applies to all our

hobby projects, but ultimately got us

into this profession, hopefully. uh

whether or it's uh you know doing work

at Atlassian or at ENTIA or GitHub. I

think that's what what is so amazing

about this and that is the actual um

drastic and the productivity is great

you know for the CFO and the CEO and the

and and and then the the stock public

stock markets but what really matters to

us is our job is fun again

>> 100%.

>> And I I I love that. So thank you so

much Rajie and Tomas and especially for

that nice ending. This was great. Thank

you. Let's give a round of applause to

them.