world's not for me

because I don't know what I'm doing here

anymore I feel nothing

I think that that's the hardest part I

haven't really spoke about this

it's um

yeah I'll just say it I mean

the man behind her favorite hits music

Superstar Grammy Award winner we're just

getting started you have no idea what is

the desire to be on stage come from

Michael Jackson I wanted to make music

art with Melody it was where I felt an

escape from my head

14 year old looking 12 shots of vodka

you know on a school night by myself

running from the police and doing drugs

that never stopped

we were in our home and

home and I'm there I'm high her period

was laid went got other pregnancy test

and I'm just like

praying

let this be a negative pregnancy test

I'm not ready to give up the drugs

and then I heard the tears I remember

walking outside and I just started

bawling because I couldn't feel any sort

of happiness and I knew what that meant

if you were to go back and be able to

have a conversation now with young Ben

at 14 years old before that first drink

what would you say

it's a great question it's going to

cause way more pain than good but at the

same time

would you like to go for dinner with me

and my guests here on the diver CEO we

are holding dinner parties all around

the world over the coming months and our

subscribers on this YouTube channel are

invited we're inviting 20 subscribers to

every dinner so if you'd like to come

for dinner with me and my guests here on

the Diary of a CEO I have a favor to ask

you all you've got to do is hit the

Subscribe button and I hope to see you

at dinner somewhere around the world

very soon

oh

[Music]

when I when I think about people's lives

I

think from doing this podcast this has

become more sort of clear to me I see

their lives as like a series of dots you

know like or a series of dominoes that

fell to lead them to where they are

today and if you go back to the very

start of that that series of dots to

understand the most influential moments

or things that

um inspired

you to become the person you are today

in every sense of the word what are

those first dots those first experiences

that I need to know in order to

understand you

my first dots my first dots I think

would be

listening to the radio

outside summer time

next door neighbor's yard

and being introduced to music

and

loving music Falling in Love That Summer

I believe I was six years old and you

know I had an older neighbor who was

maybe four or five years older than me

and he had a bunch of

um

you know my best friend was next door he

was five years older than us it was like

a collection of of kids in the

neighborhood and I remember that summer

being this magical introduction to

art to music to listening to the radio

and falling in love with with Melody

with sounds that was my first that was

my first Dot and then my next dot

shortly after that was falling in love

with hip-hop music at the age of seven

and

those were the first two dots that

really set me on a path a trajectory and

this desire to be on a stage

people can listen to music have that

summertime experience they can listen to

rap music but not have the desire to be

on stage where does the desire to be on

stage come from Michael Jackson

I think it was I think it was MJ I think

that

you know like everyone else that grew up

in the in the 80s there was something

about

watching Michael Jackson command a stage

and what he did with his body what he

did with his feet the moonwalk obviously

but everything about it the Perfection

the timing the the nuanced moves that he

had the way that he commanded the crowd

there was a curiosity around what is

that

I'm not sure but I want to try and an

inner performer was born

in my household at the age of seven and

uh everyone that came into my house was

subjected to whatever show I was putting

on that day and I just wanted to you

know get on the kitchen counter and show

people that like you know I have a show

for you guys come watch

parents home life

parents

um

yeah they were

they were super encouraging you know my

mom was my biggest cheerleader my

biggest Advocate someone that was always

in my corner that was like you can do it

you got this

and I just believed her

even when I shouldn't have

and

um those years were very

were very crucial in my development of

gaining confidence in in who I was as a

person and as an artist

School you you got kicked out of school

dropped out of school around 14 15. yeah

no I didn't get kicked out I was close

to getting kicked out

um probably should have got kicked out I

wasn't going to school much but I went

to a small school and up until uh High

School

and it was very

communal

um you know parents volunteered it was

this alternative creative school and

then ninth grade hit

and that is when

drugs and alcohol hit as well and I had

freedom it was like you know the school

was like 1600 kids or 2 000 kids or

something and for the first time I

wasn't being watched I could skip class

um the teachers didn't notice if I was

there or not or they didn't call my

parents and

um there was this level of Freedom so

there was that period of of a year year

and a half where

um I went from kind of a b student to

uh damn near getting kicked out for for

failing so didn't last long I got back

on track and um you know completed high

school with I think I closed out with a

3.8 or 4.0 my last year of high school

um and what did you want to do when you

were an adult like if I lost 14 15 year

old you know what are you going to be

when you grow up would you have told me

I wanted to rap you believed that you

could get there you know

I didn't know if I could or not but it

wasn't it 14 or 15 I don't think I would

have necessarily had the confidence like

this is going to be the path but by the

time that I hit around 20 years old

it was like this is

this is possible 22 it was like this is

even more possible 23 but the problem

was that I kept having

um you know it was just it was always

like I could make this a reality if I

can just get sober

and I couldn't get sober so it was this

like I need to get sober I need to get

clean so I can make music that's

meaningful that's impactful because once

I got high it was like the veil was over

my eyes I had no connection anymore to

the music and um it was kind of always

that balance but I felt in my heart if I

can get clean I can make

enough music that will resonate with

people that might be able to pay some of

these bills when people think about

I built a business with my business

partner for many many years and

throughout that process he was and he's

been on the show before he he was

addicted to alcohol and I didn't know

what it was so we were living in the

same house together I'd go downstairs at

three at 3am in the morning and I'd find

him in the laundry room drinking from a

bottle yeah and I'd put him back in bed

and then you know 5am I hear a sound

he's managed to get a another bottle of

alcohol and his bed sheets are covered

in this red wine and I just thought you

know in my naivety this is someone that

just likes alcohol right and no one had

taught me this concept of addiction the

disease of addiction I had no idea what

it was so it wasn't until things

escalated even further that there was

almost an intervention moment where we

literally met one one evening because

they've been an incident caused a lot of

damage and it was basically like an

ultimatum moment yeah then I went on the

Journey of understanding what addiction

was and the disease of addiction as you

describe it

when Jay spoke to you on Jay's podcast

I could see he was doing a similar thing

to what I was doing when I was

researching your story which was like

trying to understand the cause of it and

I'm not even sure if that's the right

question

do you know what I mean like we're all

searching for a cause yeah

and and so I wanted to ask the question

to you like what is in your view

how did that relationship with drugs and

alcohol come to be

you know I think that for me it was the

first time in my life

where I felt an escape

from my head it was like what was going

on in your head I don't even know but I

just felt to reprieve I felt this like

this Elation this moment of like all of

these thoughts in my head

are gone and I am here with this bottle

and no one's around and I get to be a

secret and I get to hide this and I feel

free I feel free from whatever it was in

that you know 14 year old

puberty hormonal teenager that was going

on in my life it was like

quiet and um

I had the allergy from the very

beginning it was

you know

One Shot Two Shot what does four feel

like what does eight feel like and all

of a sudden I'm taking 12 shots of vodka

um you know on a school night by myself

hopping on the bus and you know running

from the police and it was a crazy first

time drinking alcohol that never stopped

for me every time pretty much that I

drank turned into a Crazy Event like

that

um but I don't know I don't know exactly

at the time what I was what I wanted to

escape from I think that there was just

that

changing reality

there was that oh I like to be able to

to skew what's in front of me and to

silence the minds

from your from going through the process

of recovery and rehab and all those

things you've met a lot of other people

that have struggled with the disease of

addiction has any of that process taught

you anything about your own relationship

or the causal factors of your own

relationship with

substances and alcohol

you know I think that there's through

lines absolutely and I think that for a

a lot of us that have the disease of

addiction there's trauma there's

childhood trauma there's you know if the

disease kicks in later in life maybe

that trauma came into play later but I

think that there is a through line in

what I have seen in others

um and that's you know some sort of

thing that we're we're holding on to or

a secret or you know something that

happened to us in life that

um drugs and alcohol kind of numbs and

takes away quells that

that inner guilt that inner shame

whatever it might be I think that

there's a through line between

us addicts and in our past and then I

think also there's people that just have

the allergy and maybe it's maybe it's

not related to trauma at all maybe we're

not predisposed or maybe we are

predisposed It's a combination I don't

know but I do see that um a lot of

people are trying to escape

it's a difficult thing especially for

the um the people around that individual

like to because you know going back to

my own example with my best friend and

business partner I didn't have the tools

to know how to be there right you know

and I also didn't have the information

to understand what I was dealing with

like if you'd asked me when I was 25

like what was going on with my friend I

just loves to get drunk right it's part

of the culture yeah and then when you

meet what we do is 25 year olds yeah

um

if if you were to give advice on like

how those around the individual who is

struggling with the disease of addiction

can be there or what their role is

supposed to be or what would you what

would you say what advice would you have

given me at 25 years old you know I

think that there's

there's resources that we have there's

Al-Anon where if you have someone that

it's a 12-step program for people that

have loved ones or friends or whatever

that are going through the disease of

addiction and how to show up and you

literally they're in the basements of

churches all over the world or you know

community centers or wherever they're

free and there's people that are going

through the same common struggle of how

do we show up

in an authentic way and help

save this person's life that we love

um because we don't have the information

you know for so many of us I think that

there's this notion of just stop why

don't they just stop why are they

hurting themselves how could they do

this to me we make it about us right

like how could they do this to me how

could they lie to me how could they go

out and say that they were going to quit

and then keep going why don't they see

who they turn into just stop

just stopping

doesn't work

there needs to be a support system there

are needs for for the attic we need

12-step meetings we need therapy we need

you know to evaluate our mental health

we need to work the steps we need a

sponsor we need a community of people

that share our very same struggle so we

can see ourselves and experience the

therapeutic value of one addict helping

another that is our piece but until we

get there just stopping is almost

impossible

and sometimes it takes you know hitting

those really low points of of getting

arrested or getting Court mandated to go

to you know 12-step meetings but on the

others the other side of it

here you are with your friend

and you have no idea how to show up

authentically in that moment and

actually really come from a place of

love and you're angry and you're so

angry right you're pissed you don't know

how to deal with that emotion and you

realize that once you go to this meeting

these meetings

that just like the addict we're

powerless over drugs and alcohol you're

powerless over your friend

and there are things that you can do to

help

there's probably things that you can do

to maybe hurt but overall

they have to be in enough pain that they

want to change

and you're not going to be the Catalyst

and you can put them in I've watched it

time and time again of people with the

best intentions that end up enabling

that end up you know fueling the fire

that end up trying to help but not

having the tools themselves and I think

that Al-Anon is the best easiest free

way to even if you want to go to a

meeting or two to get some skill sets

some language and to realize that

um at the end of it

come from your heart and lead the

expectations aside because this is their

Journey at the end of the day

the moment that I described this moment

where we had kind of like an

intervention with my best friend and it

was really the day we met on a Sunday in

an office after the Saturday before he'd

got very very drunk and caused a lot of

problems with team members

he's talked about this like doing things

in public going on someone's table next

to the restaurant um the table next to

his at the restaurant he was at with our

team grabbing their alcohol off the

table and doing all these crazy things

and getting kicked out of the restaurant

it was a surrendering the day after and

you used that word before yeah we met in

the office and it was the first time

I came with anger

and it was the first time

he told me how he felt yeah

and he cried in front of me

and that was and then my anger

immediately evaporates because it's the

first time I've heard that this

individual is suffering with something

right and there's a pain and that was

the day that was the the day he became

sober went to therapy went on that

journey and he's been sober for eight

years since then but it was that

surrendering moment it was that like him

reaching out and saying like I need help

in me actually like listening yes

you see him for what he is in that

moment which is hurting which is an

immense pain

he doesn't want to be like that he feels

the guilt and shame of his actions he's

tried to start and and stop and go back

and forth and things that okay maybe

it's just hard alcohol or or dark

alcohol or maybe it's beer or maybe it's

the combination of this drug he's tried

everything and he's hurting and he

doesn't know how to stop he doesn't have

the tools and I think that that

surrender that you talk about is one of

the most beautiful moments for an addict

or an alcoholic is like waving the White

Flag we think about surrender is is a

weakness right like you don't surrender

you keep fighting you keep going no with

this disease the greatest thing that we

can do is surrender is to snitch on

ourselves is to wave that white flag is

to let other people know that we are

struggling on our own internally that

this is something is broken and I have

no idea how to get out of this and um

and what did that do when he was able to

be human to you you were like okay now I

can come from a place of love because

I'm pissed off about what you do last

night and I'm pissed off that you've

done X Y and Z and that we've had this

conversation or whatever the situation

is

um

and you know you ask what can you do as

a 25 year old friend

coming from a place of love and I think

compassion and even if it's not you know

empathy isn't possible because that's

not what you're going through I think

that that compassion is

is what makes people feel you know what

they actually care about me it's not

just like I'm pissing them off but they

actually care and

you know just kind of like letting go of

our own expectations of people and

meeting them where they're at

is always

you know the best place to show up from

when was your moment of surrender

God I've had many I think my

my biggest moment of surrender I was 25

or 26 years old 25 I think and

I had been

on oxycontin for you know I don't know a

couple weeks couple a month and it

caught up really quickly in terms of my

addiction to the point that you know

I lost a ton of weight I'm you know I'm

scratching I just was like I was dope

sick and I had never really experienced

that before

um all the happiness any serotonin was

gone

it was

one of those moments of I remember like

walking outside and it was summertime in

Seattle which is like most beautiful

place in the world in the summer and I

remember walking outside on a tank top

and I'm like you know I just started

bawling being outside because I couldn't

feel any sort of happiness it was gone

it was like it had evaporated and um

and I didn't really want to be here

anymore like there was that moment it

was like there was no real suicidal

um ideation or plan

but it was just this like

maybe this world's not for me

because I don't know what I'm doing here

anymore

I feel nothing I feel nothing

um except deep deep grief and the

obsession to get more

and it was shortly after that my um

you know I went to a family function and

I'm trying to you know piece it together

and just be presentable and just get

through it and my Dad pulled me aside

and

um

you know I think my mom had asked him to

talk to me

because you know we didn't

grow up having too many heart-to-hearts

it was mostly with my mom but my mom I

think urged him to do it he pulled me

aside and just asked me are you happy

and um

that was my surrender moment I kind of

lied to him

I couldn't lie to myself

it was

a very clear answer of absolutely not I

am

so broken

I am

I don't even know what happy is anymore

and um

he asked me to go to rehab

said that he would pay for it

and

immediately I wasn't ready for that

surrender though you know in that moment

I'm like no no I I've heard about these

12-step meetings I'll go to those I know

someone that goes and um he came back

and was like I think that it would be

really good for you to have

these 28 days to just focus on yourself

and of course there's always the like

well I can't go because if this is

happening and this is how you know we're

not worried about those things happening

when we're risking Our Lives doing drugs

or copious amounts of drinking we're

just worried about it when it's like now

we need to go take care of ourselves

and it's like the the addict Anthem is

like well let me just get my life

together and then I can go to rehab it's

not really how it works it's more like

um you know we come in very

you know we're at our worst no one goes

to rehab and they're like you know

life's okay but I think I need some

rehab no people come in when they are at

their bottom and I was at I was at mine

and just saying yes to him that day on

the porch saying that I would go was my

surrender moment it was my white flag

and it was

the best decision I ever made in my life

hands down

have you ever reflected on

that crossroads moment and if you'd

chosen to go the other way and you'd

said to your dad maybe yes I am happy

when he asked at that family get

together or when he said go to rehab

you'd said no

I think there's a good chance I could be

dead

um really absolutely and that was close

at that time

I've been you know

this disease

we think of um

we think we're so far away from Death

you know that we're Immortal and that it

won't happen to us and

um

I think I'm probably in my

30s in terms of how many people I know

that have died from the disease of

addiction

um you know when I wrote my first

song about

the disease of addiction called other

side when I got out of rehab

um maybe in 2009

I had known three people

so we've gone up by probably around 25

30 people since then

um I'm not naive to how quickly it can

happen

and

taking into account fentanyl as well

right now and what's going on with

street drugs

it's it's rampant we are we are facing

an epidemic right now around the world

but particularly in America I don't know

how it is over here but I think this

fentanyl is no joke it's killing people

um they think they're getting one drug

they're getting another drug and

the nature of the disease it is out to

kill us that is its sole purpose and

um

yeah I'd be dead

I think so

you've been so successful throughout

your career with your music and it's

it's it's an interesting hearing those

stories of the struggle and the ups and

the downs and the battle with that and

then looking at your your catalog in

terms of music and I was it was crazy I

was going through I was going through

all your songs going back through the

through the years and I'm looking at the

numbers on these [ __ ] records and I'm

thinking [ __ ] 1.4 billion views

500 million views 500 200 million views

and huge huge numbers the records are

they feel Timeless when I listen to them

um there's a real real real talent there

which you know when I think about the

struggle you've been through then I look

at the back catalog of the work you've

produced from an artistic standpoint I'm

asking myself what's the relationship

here like has has that has your

struggles played into the music or has

your struggles sort of taken away from

the music and your potential like what

is the relationship and what is what has

music been throughout that struggle to

you

it's a great question and it's honestly

a question that I think about too like

I've

I've kind of asked myself that same

question in the last 48 hours

I don't know if I have an answer

I believe that it's all panned out the

way that it's supposed to be has drugs

and alcohol affected me being prolific

absolutely it's taken away work ethic in

moments it's taken away

um Seasons years of of time where I

could have been focused where I could

have been building momentum but instead

I chose the path of

um

instant gratification

and we were talking about this last

night there's one of my mentors and ogs

in my 12-step program are one of them

um

you know her name was Rita and

she had this business card that she used

to give out to people and it said that

her greatest regret in life is trading

in what she wanted

in the bigger picture

for what she wanted in that moment and I

always think about my life in that way

of is this what I want for the greater

good for my story to be or am I acting

at a place of Desire am I acting at a

place of wanting to change the way that

I feel right now knowing that that will

hinder me that's not really what I want

what place am I coming from

and weighing those

and I think for a lot of my life it was

no I want this right now and

that oftentimes is a destructive pattern

whether it was sex or with drugs or you

know whatever

um of trading in what I truly wanted

what I truly believe to be the truth

because my truth is that I am the best

version of myself when I am clear when I

am

silent enough to be able to be a conduit

to something that is outside of my

understanding I couldn't even put it

into words it's that magic that happens

in the studio where all of a sudden

you're almost removed from the pen

that's writing the song and

um you know I choose to call it God but

that God presence that being is is

absolutely moving through through me

I've never been able to feel that

um

without a spiritual practice music has

always been a spiritual practice for me

but

I think that it's made me who I am I've

made tons of mistakes and since I've

been famous I made tons of mistakes that

were that were you know influenced by

the drugs that I was doing or you know

the

the positions that I got myself in but

those also turned into learning moments

they turned into maybe a song or maybe a

conversation or maybe the thing that I

needed to share about in a 12-step

meeting that saved someone's life I

don't know I don't know but I know that

um I'm here I know that I'm here for a

reason I know that my catalog

um is something that I'm super proud of

and you know beyond the numbers it's

like

last night driving from Birmingham into

London

I listened to

Ben my new album

I hadn't had that really that moment for

a while of listening to my album and its

entirety because you're working so hard

on it there's so many nuanced things

it's like you can't even just enjoy it

and I sat in the car and I listened to

it all the way through and um

it's the best feeling to be like you

know what I I worked really hard on

something and um

in all of these little moments all of

these mistakes all of this pain

eventually finds its way

into purpose

and I think that that's an i an artist

highest form is to be able to take pain

and repurpose it into purpose

what is giving you that or like you

describe that moment in the studio where

you're clear and you're almost

channeling something you'll hire

creativity whatever that is

have you been able to figure out what it

is that causes those moments of of

clarity and and focus and stability and

then on the other side of the coin what

causes the the chaos in our lives the

instability is there any causal factors

yes

for me

it is

exercise

getting outside it's like actually

cardio

it is

being of service to other people

it is a spiritual practice

it is coming from Faith rather than fear

it is thinking about ourselves less and

others more

it is being still in the studio not

thinking about what is this going to do

for the world but just actually being

present

and removing the ego

which is what all of those things

help facilitate right like when we when

we're of service when we work out when

we show up when we're at peace when we

think about ourselves less we're

removing the ego I'm stripping it away

it's a process of excavation

and the opposite is when I'm thinking

about okay

what if this song doesn't work at Radio

what if this you know what if Tick Tock

doesn't you know do the challenge what

if uh you know whatever it is when I'm

future surfing

thinking about the outcome rather than

enjoying the process the process is

where the magic happens

the rest of it I've never for all of the

records that I've ever put out

there has never been a moment of any

calculation that has worked

doesn't work the records that I've been

like oh yeah this is going to be the one

those are the ones with like two million

views on YouTube

and the ones that I'm like you know who

knows those are the ones with you know

that really affected culture that really

like got out there and you know the

world knows these songs

10 11 years later or five years later or

whatever it is I think the intention in

the studio is so important because

even if you know even if I put out a new

album that doesn't stream as as well as

the last one or whatever it is that's

not my metric if I'm if I am basing my

identity around those numbers and those

metrics

um

I will always be disappointed

my bucket will always be half full and

if I'm basing it on what was the

intention

what am I actually trying to get at

the music is going to hit who it hits it

was already written I just have to get

out of the way when I try to control

hang on when I try to play Puppet Master

that's when I become

miserable and um

and I'm not effective at my job

so two questions here they're on that

basis

you know I'm sure people ask you what

your favorite record is whatever I'm not

really interested in that I know it's

like choosing your favorite children or

whatever and they're all different for

various reasons but in terms of the most

important record you think you've ever

recorded the one that you believe has

benefited

um others the world the most

irrespective of performance metrics what

what is that record

it's two records it's um Same Love yeah

and other side interesting and I think

Same Love is the obvious

answer

because it came out at a time

where we as I'll speak for for America

but kind of you know

even more it came out at the time in

America where we were having this

conversation around legalizing gay

marriage where

um there was a shift there's a cultural

shift and

that song became

became something bigger than than me it

became

a move a moment for a movement towards

equality and as a as a songwriter as an

artist as someone that um you know

Prides himself on

on the pen and the in the ways that it

can move spirit

that's the

that's up there that has to be one or

number two the other one is other side

and the other side is a record that not

as many people know but it is one that

it was kind of the first you know it was

the first record I wrote when I got out

of the treatment and it was that I I am

literally not even here right now I'm

just trying to be silent enough in my

own head to just let this magic happen

but it talked about

the disease of addiction for the first

time and I kind of was like

ah I just need to get this out I don't

know I I am an addict and I don't want

to like hide this [ __ ] and I know it's

not cool I know it's not gonna sell more

records I know it's not what anyone

anyone else is talking about I know it's

not what my favorite rappers are talking

about but I am an addict and I have to

be sober

um

and I need to let whoever was listening

me at the time the 2000 fans that I had

I needed to let them know that this is

who I was

and um you know it said that we're only

as sick as our secrets I didn't want to

be sick anymore I just wanted to tell my

truth and that was the record to do it

and what I watched happen after that

I'll never forget people coming to the

shows you know six people 12 people

14 people in recovery coming because

they heard other side and

it changed their life and

I know what that feels like as someone

on the other end of it who's

life

has changed so many times by the music

that I was listening to

and

yeah it's those two those are the ones

I listened to a drug dealer earlier

and um I listened to it but then I

looked at the comment section and it is

like

it's profound it's profound that the

second comment on that video is from of

recovering heroin addict who's crying

while they're watching that video

because it's making them feel heard seen

and understood

um in a really profound way and every

every comment was like that every

comment was

um speaking to like the liberating and

therapeutic impact that someone was

having on you know thousands and

thousands of people it's a really

profound thing it's almost you know

it's a lot isn't it in terms of you know

you talked about those people coming to

a show the seven the ten the twelve

has that ever felt like and this is a

strange word to use but does it has that

ever felt like an emotional weight at

all because you're hearing these stories

I sat with Jordan Peterson in fact and

he talked about how people coming up to

him and telling them about their own

Journeys their own emotional path to

recovery or healing can sometimes feel

like a like an emotional way it's a lot

to carry

I feel the opposite really I feel

I feel connection

it connects me to the art because I'm

not in the same place that I was in 2009

when I wrote that song my life looks

very different

I think when I hear people

say that they removed or they were

transformed or that they felt some

inspiration or you know whatever it is

um for one it's an it's an opportunity

and I think that maybe this is where

Jordan and I differ is that

um

I'm an addict this person coming up to

me is an addict and there's an immediate

connection there that I can't describe I

don't know what it is but it's just like

oh

you got the same oh my God we had the

same thing

how are you doing with with your journey

how are you doing with yours

um and it's not a weight it's more like

ah thank you for you know

the the meet and greet of thank you so

much appreciate it thank you so much

like that's a way that's just going

through the motions the actual moments

of people telling me those things when

I'm like okay let's pause like we don't

need to get through the line so fast

let's you know we'll get to the hotel

when we get to the hotel let me be

present with this person because

this conversation

is changing my life I'm reminded why I

wrote that record in the first place I'm

reminded of the beauty that happens when

we share honestly like those are those

moments where I'm like thank you that's

where I feel like I am the recipient of

the recipient of a gift

um that's coming full circle because

they're reminding me

um of how important it is to

to share honestly regardless of how it

looks regardless of how it's perceived

and I think that so much of the time

there's this

you know well if I tell my truth will I

be an outcast will I be accepted will I

be kicked out of the tribe will I

um

still be a part of we want to be a part

of

and

there's this thing that happens like

what happened with your friend when you

saw him finally when you saw him not is

the alcoholic that was [ __ ] [ __ ] up

in the house or messing up your life or

like why doesn't he just stop at you saw

him and his raw estate

that's his that's raw Humanity right

there and when we demonstrate that when

we can show others that we can be Raw

it just

it inspires

because other people like oh I can tell

my truth too and I'm not gonna get

kicked out

wow

let me show up as my authentic self

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let me know how you find it over the

last couple of how long maybe four

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paying attention to this podcast will

know why I've sat here with some

incredible Health experts and one of the

things that's really come through for me

which has caused a big change in my life

is the need for us to have these

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social media you don't you don't really

do social media do you don't really in

terms of like engaging I heard that

you're not the biggest fan of social

media

ah

well that hurts my feelings because I

try pretty hard well I know I'm just

kidding yeah

um like no I do you know but you're not

out there making you're not out there

every day talking about your life

insurance behind the scenes yeah social

media for me

is part of my job

sometimes I'm great at it sometimes I

mean I'm just this guy I'm like okay

what are we doing on you know social

media now and then it's like Zoop but

outside of work outside of work no I

mean I want to be present I want to be

like

you know it's like my kids show up today

and you know my

videographer is like yo if you can get a

little bit of iPhone footage with the

kids like walking around like that'd be

awesome and I'm like you know asking my

wife five minutes into Norwalk like hey

do you mind getting some footage of us

walking like and I was like never mind

never mind never mind it doesn't matter

like

it doesn't matter what matters is that

I'm with my kids and then I'm being

president and then I'm happy

um and I'm and I'm off my phone because

I've experienced both ways and it's a

balance right like there are times where

I need to be on my phone and I need to

be on social media and I need to be

handling whatever needs to get handled

but

um

no I think it's it's about the

relationship that an individual has with

social media and again it comes back to

intention is the intention for the most

likes for the most engagement for the

most followed like if that's what it is

then there's always going to be a void

there that's looking to be filled and it

can be really toxic and I was talking to

you know a couple a couple guys on on

tour with us and and I you know 20 year

old 21

and just talk you know they're just

constantly analyzing Tick Tock and

trying to figure out why did this post

perform and this one didn't and maybe

it's because we're over in Europe and

the Geo targeting and all of this and

I'm like you guys are 20 like you're on

tour in Europe like go out and have fun

explore like live

outside of tick tock and

when this is all that they've known and

that this in this platform is the reason

why I know he exists and why his songs

have gotten out there it can be really

challenging and I feel for the younger

generation and I feel for the older

generation that's like yo the label's

telling me that I have to do this and I

really don't want to be here at all but

here I am

post

um

there's this there's a spiritual

sickness that can be easily

um

insidiously infiltrate our psyche if

we're just here Non-Stop and and I just

don't want to be

on that point of um you know those 20

year olds that are with you and you're

giving them that advice if you could um

you know you've had this immense career

and you know a lot of people have great

careers but yours has had so many twists

and turns and twists and turns that the

wisdom you've gained from every twist

and turn I believe is pretty profound

that's why I really loved your

conversation with Jay if you were to go

back and be able to have a conversation

now with that young Ben at 14 years old

let's say right before that first

um

drink what advice would you impart on

him

about life

it's tough to say and it's you picked an

interesting time period because you

picked before

and I don't think that I would have

I don't think that I would have warned

that 14 year old maybe I would have I

think that

but I don't think it would have done

anything

you know what I mean like maybe that

conversation would have looked like

bro you're an addict you're never going

to be able to shut this off it's going

to cause warm way more pain than good

but at the same time

I can't discredit the experiences that

I've had that have led me to this table

right here in this moment and if it

wasn't for those mistakes

um

you know I have a different story I have

a different

um Arsenal to pick from in terms of what

moves me creatively and

um again repurposing that that pain

but a lot of that pain

has hurt others has hurt close family

members or my wife or best friends and

um

those moments are hard to deal with I

think

if I could tell my 14 year old self

anything it'd be like bro you're gonna

do what you're gonna do enjoy it

find gratitude

a spiritual practice get outside of your

own head

get into the act of loving and being

there for others and

just don't stop

I think that when I have stopped in my

life when I have let up on

on the gas not just like not stop in

terms of

the work ethic

but stop the spiritual practice that's

the thing that's always

brought me back

it's not the work it's not the amount of

Engagement it's not the algorithm it's

not the YouTube streams it's none of

that what actually

makes you happy and fulfilled find that

thing and push into it as hard as you

can

that's where the magic lives

use the term spiritual practice to

describe what that is in in detail what

what you mean by spiritual practice for

you

well it's looked like many different

things throughout my my time here you

know in moments it's been a meditation

practice uh in moments it's been a yoga

practice and moments it's been uh you

know many 12-step meetings throughout

the week or step work or working with

others but I think it's the art of just

getting outside of oneself and getting

grounded in the moment and serving

others that has been my consistent

consistent point of reference is you

know what

when you feel spiritually sick reach out

to someone else

whether it's picking up the phone or

call that person that you've been

avoiding or whatever just get outside of

your own self do the thing that makes

you uncomfortable push into that because

that's when life all of a sudden

becomes vibrant colors come back it

becomes alive of like oh yes I I turn

this off I stop thinking about me and

what I wanted in the moment and I just

showed up for someone else and I found

that connection I found God in those

moments I found that little piece that

reminded me of who I am just by showing

up for for another

second ago you talked about when you're

talking about other people you said that

one of the hardest things is knowing

that you'd go on to hurt other people

yeah

who did you hurt

I've heard my parents for my wife

probably the most

um

I think anyone that

I was being dishonest to you know

there's this double

it's almost this double life that that

needs to be lived and you know when I

would go off and I'd relapse and I'd you

know I'd lie about it I wouldn't you

know

relapsing is

you know for me has always been a sneaky

thing it's not like I'm like all of a

sudden like hey guys just so everyone

knows I'm high again no this is like

quiet hush

um I'm trying not to get caught and in

those Seasons protecting that

and people are probably like yo what's

going on with them like you know and I'm

lying about that and

it's just a really toxic

spot you know I'm gaslighting my wife

and and you know making her feel crazy I

think that that's probably

if she was here asked what's the hardest

part of being you know in a in a

partnership with an addict it's like

those moments where he made me feel

crazy it's not that I went back to the

drugs necessarily it's that um

I made her feel like she was she was

crazy

and that she was off because she was

even questioning me and again turning

into someone that I'm like that's the

worst version of myself that's the

shittiest version of myself that's

something that in my in my heart I know

to be um

not the way that I want to treat anybody

much less my significant other or my

best friends or my team but here I am

again putting everything to the Wayside

just so I can can continue to use and um

it's a pretty dark place

was there a point where you thought you

might lose her

yeah

yeah I mean

relapse in Coven

you know the beginning of coven

definitely was um

you know she kicked me out of the house

and um I went to stay in my parents

condo and

I remember just uh driving around

aimlessly

like I'm gonna lose my kids

gonna lose his marriage

and I think the thing that

I think that's thing that scares me the

most is

um

if I'm being honest is

not being in my kids lives and

the devastation that that would

potentially and that impact that it

would a divorce would have on them

and

the other flip side of it is I believe

the kids are resilient and that

that pain can be repurposed and that you

know

half of the world is divorced and you

know

Beauty can come out of it and does all

the time and people end up in much

better situations out of divorce so it's

I'm not against divorce but for me and

my and my kids that was the thing that I

was holding on to was just this like

I want

our family to stay together and the fact

that I can I

it would be because of me it would be

because of my

self-centered

instant gratification Need to Escape not

actually working my 12-step program ass

like that I would be the reason

that this family broke up and I would

have to to hold that and that weight the

idea of that weight

still seems too much to to live with I

know I could do it but in that moment of

that

that last relapse that was definitely a

yeah it was

it was a real scare

into um

look what you're about to lose

for what for this

this doesn't even make you happy it

stopped working

right away it never worked it never

worked for you it never worked it never

worked in the long run even if you had a

good night or two in the big picture

um

you have an allergy

and that allergy is trying to kill you

every time you pick it up

I've read um about a story when you were

in a I think you're in a hotel room or

something and your wife had taken a

pregnancy test and you would you just

relapsed and she was in the toilet and

you heard her crying through the door

yeah and you knew that

you knew that

those weren't happy tears yeah because

she was pregnant yeah

can you take me back to that moment and

just tell me exactly what happened dude

you were in it was a hotel I was there a

house you were at our house okay yeah we

were in our home and

um

yeah it's it's kind of a I mean it's the

truth but it's um

yeah I'll just say it I mean I'm there

I'm high she doesn't know it but she

knows it but you know she hasn't caught

me yet and I just keep denying it and um

you know her period was late went got

her the pregnancy test and I'm just like

begging to a God that I had no

connection with please please

let this be a negative pregnancy test

um

I'm not ready yet I'm not ready to be a

dad I'm not ready to give up the drugs

I'm not ready to give up the drugs and I

remember just like on the carpet

literally like

praying

and then I heard the tears

and I knew what that meant

that she was pregnant

and

I knew that that meant that I needed to

get clean

and it was that moment of like that pull

and I think that that's the hardest part

I haven't really spoke about this I

think that's the hardest part about

the disease of addiction is this pull is

the compulsion and the obsession for

more yet knowing that more is the thing

that is leading to

depression The Rock Bottom the not

wanting to be here anymore but it's this

just that at odds and I

I felt that

inner turmoil of just

I'm not ready to be a dad because I

still want to get high

and I know I need to stop but I am just

not ready yet

and um

sure enough she was pregnant

and

I got clean

and she was pregnant with our first

daughter Sloan

so

you know I think my my reservation is

just like Sloan watching this someday

and being like Oh it's tight so dad was

super high

um on the carpet and didn't really want

me that's not true at all either I mean

I was high and I at the time I didn't

want her but when I got clean it was

like okay let's have this baby like I

want to be a dad I want to be a dad who

um my kids never see loaded that they

don't even know that part of me that

they don't have to be like oh Dad's

dad's high again or Dad's hiding or mom

kicked dad out of the house that they

don't even know that part of my my story

um

that's what I wanted

well if you come to learn about the

Journey of life and and as it relates to

like

and I said a second ago that the ups and

the Downs the ups and the downs but you

persevere and that's really all the

choice we have is to persevere and to

find something meaningful to aim at

today and then we'll get another chance

again tomorrow and we kind of like right

off

yesterday and the day before because

with that side of our control now and

it's about what can I aim at today as

you sit here today what are you aiming

at like the past is the past like we

can't go back and change things it is

what it is it's I think it's important

to be aware of it and to admit it to

ourselves to at least to learn some

wisdom from it but as you sit here today

you're a you know as you woke up this

morning this is today is in play yeah

what are you aiming at today and as we

look off into the next sort of two

decades of your life what

I maybe to a fault don't think about the

future

what I'm thinking about

is here

and then I'm like okay well let's zoom

out from here I have a show tonight I

want to put on a great show we're in

London um it's like 6 000 people sold

out like I want to put on a great show

what is it going to take for me to put

on a great show tonight

um

my family's in town in London like I I

just don't think like that yeah yeah and

I

and I watched my wife who does and other

people who do and it's like I have an

inability

to think a big picture

I have an exceptional ability

at focusing on the thing that is in

front of me

and I believe that it probably has to do

with ADD and the way that my brain works

in the chemistry but it's what it has

created a

um a work ethic and a focus that you

know I can just be in the studio for 14

hours or I can be doing a music video

and editing it and just keep going and

that's how I got good at my craft was

putting in those long long hours where

other people be like all right let's go

outside and I'm like no it's not done

yet let's keep working

um but in terms of the next 20 years I

don't know I don't know I I'm excited to

to Pivot

you know I don't think that you know in

a decade I'm gonna be like you know I

can't wait to play the show tonight I

don't know

you know we'll see what happens but what

I have realized

and and part of this comes from

um you know working on my golf clothing

company bogey boys

which has been so fun such a labor of of

love and to be able to design clothes

and watch people wear them and you know

the the creative process that that has

been particularly in covid

that's not going to be my only pivot

it's just not it doesn't fulfill me in

the same way what does fulfill me with

actual meaning

is

is our youth program called The

Residency in Seattle and thinking about

actually you know getting a permanent

spot

year long with Staffing where we have a

home for the residency that actually

is inspiring to me that has meaning that

has a lasting potential

that's deeper than like what color Polo

is this going to be and I think that

they can coexist because I do enjoy this

as well I love bogey boys I love golf

but for the bigger picture

what do you want your legacy to be

and not for the purpose of ego but like

how do you want

to leave the greatest impact to make the

greatest impact with our precious time

on this Earth we don't have much we

don't know how much we have left it's

finite it could be you know gone

tomorrow what can you hang your hat on

and be like you know what I took a risk

I got uncomfortable

I sacrificed I showed up I worked really

hard

I celebrated the wins I took the losses

on the chin and I kept going

that's the kind of life I want and it's

kind of life I wanted today and it's the

same life I want 20 years

regardless of where that leads me

all those years ago your dad asked you a

question at that family get-together he

said

are you happy

all these years later you're sat in this

table in London

are you happy

I think happiness is fleeting

and happiness comes and goes

I think that what is sustainable is

meaning his purpose

I'm not going to be happy every day

it's gonna go like this in this moment

yes I am happy but

but in general in in my life right now

am I happy I would say absolutely yes

but

there's trials and tribulations through

it all and what I have what I have found

is that those moments of of

of being tested

of

sorrow of

betrayal of

growth all of those turn into

progress if we can use them as medicine

if we can accept them as blessings

rather than this idea this is one thing

I've been thinking about a lot lately is

just this idea of like

victimhood of mentally going to a place

of oh they wronged me or I'm a victim no

this is an opportunity this is a

blessing that has been put in front of

me and how I get to handle it now and

show up

and it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm

thinking of it about what are they doing

to me how could they do this just like

we're talking about earlier it becomes

um medicine when I can show up from a

place of

I might not know why this is happening

but I have faith that I am absolutely at

the right place right now

and I'm going to show up

clean

I'm not gonna Escape

I am going to be my true self

tell the truth even when I don't want to

and

um

and keep it pushing that's what creates

meaning and fulfillment and that is what

I'm after not momentary happiness

there seems to be a real authenticity to

your new album Ben and I think I mean

maybe that's even evidenced in the

choice of the name to some degree

because you've called it after yourself

um after the name that your parents gave

to you and throughout the album I felt a

certain sense of

I was gonna say I don't give a [ __ ]

about like what I'm supposed to be to

some degree because

it feels like all of you as opposed to

just a narrow part of you if that makes

sense I don't know absolutely so like

because and I I say that in part because

I listened to the first record and then

I got like six or seven records down and

it was just like

you hadn't the first record didn't sound

like the sick record it was like a

completely different kind of expression

so I was thinking it's kind of someone

that has kind of just doesn't really

give a [ __ ] about what they're supposed

to yes make and they're making what they

care about maybe that's my assessment of

it

um how accurate was that what was your

thinking going into this and how is this

project different to all of the other

projects you've I I think that you

summed it up beautifully and um

I love to be able to do all of that and

just like walking in the studio and be

like what what is speaking to me today

um

you know maybe it's a dance song from

1984 maybe it's a you know I'm going

through something maybe it's a a pop

song Maybe it's like I want to rap you

know

you know with Primo scratching and it

sounds like it's from the 90s like it's

whatever Direction I want to go is like

I don't want to feel limited like oh but

that's not what you do no I I could do

whatever I want to do

um and you're right in that it's all me

like those are all bits and pieces of me

and I think for a long time and that's

what I've always done kind of so how

does it differ I don't know I feel like

all maybe there's been a little bitco

more cohesion on other albums but for

the most part that's what I've always

done is

those are all

those are all facets of my expression

and um

and I think it's confused people you

know because like it you know I'll have

homies that are like yo you dropped

Heroes and then you came out with this

like you know pop song with the music

video directed by your daughter like

what is going on and I'm like yep that's

what I did but doesn't authenticity

confuse people anyway because Conformity

doesn't convince no you're right

Conformity fits yes Conformity fits

authenticity doesn't no and they're and

they want me to be this version yeah and

you know radio wants me to be this

version and you know this it's like

you're right I mean authenticity

confuses people and and and once people

can box put it in a box

package it

be able to point to it that this is this

this is that

it makes it a lot easier as an artist to

um or as a you know Observer

to judge I don't like it because it's

this yeah versus like oh [ __ ] he did

that but then he did that and I like

that but I would never listen you know

whatever people are trying to figure it

out I'm like I'm just gonna keep making

the music that I've always made and

um again I have a faith now that it

lands where it's supposed to land and

that process has been therapeutic for me

of just detaching from detaching from

the outcome regardless of what it is

just like

just make it because you love it dude

that's all I think that's a super you

know powerful lesson an important one

that I think everyone without maybe

realizing it can actually really relate

to I even have that a lot on this show

where I will have such a diverse range

of guests that on every conversation I

have there's a comment saying like get

back to interviewing CEOs or why like

why is this personal why are you

interviewing Sports people or whatever

and there was maybe a point where I

thought

it crossed my mind maybe they're right

maybe I should just like stay in my Lane

yeah but the authentic me goes I care

about so many [ __ ] things right I

love sports I love businesses I love

music I love psychology so can I just

run the experiment

of being myself yeah and I refer to it

as an experiment because there's a

perceived cost running that experiment

you don't know the outcome are people

just gonna stop listening running that

experiment has been

most importantly okay it's worked but

it's been great for me right as in like

I can show up every day and like my life

regardless of whether people want to

listen I can really enjoy this and

that's how I can run this as a marathon

opposed to as a Sprint right right like

when we can form it's like I've never

seen it be sustainable for my guests

when they're like wearing a mask for too

long

I could do this for the rest of my life

because I'm big myself do you see what I

mean absolutely

um we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last guest asks a

question for the next guest not knowing

who they're leaving it for

and the question that's been left for

you by our previous guest is

there someone from your past that you

should have a conversation with that you

haven't had

if so why haven't you had it and what is

that conversation

hmm that's a great question

as my parents

get older

that there's probably some conversations

there particularly with my dad that I

I go back and forth on having

and uh you know

a relationship that I might want with

him that I think that there's some fear

around maybe he doesn't

desire

with me

and um

it's a tricky one with parents it's a

tricky with family like having

deep conversations around

what our relationship looks like or what

it looked like growing up or whatever

um

you know I'm from a family where you

know you kind of you smile through it I

think there's a reason why I never heard

my parents fight

I think that there is a um

just be happy

don't talk about it just be happy

and uh

that hasn't been my experience on this

Earth and I think that at times it's

challenged them

um

and then at a certain point you're like

Yo dude you're dead 75 years old like

you know he is who he is and but I think

if my dad

my dad passed tomorrow

um

I would probably feel like there was

just did I really make an effort to

connect

um

on the level

that

that I intuitively wanted to

outside of his reaction

to my words I completely relate to that

with my own dad yeah I completely relate

and I don't know why I've never had the

conversation

um

I don't know what it is is it I don't

think he's got the tools I've not got

the tools we've not got the tools right

all three yeah oh yeah all three

um

but you probably do have the tools

interesting because you can have I can

have the tools with my girlfriend that's

what I'm saying well we've like learned

together how to do the tools but then I

look over at my dad and I go

uh We've not figured out how to how to

do this together because there's like

there you know we go through different

there's like a Changing of the Guard

almost it's like our parents

you know my parents were byproducts of

of their parents and these are very

different times in Civilization

and where we have gotten to in terms of

talking about our emotions and and

mental health and being able to process

masculinity or ego or these things you

know going to therapy or going to a

12-step meeting or you know really

working on ourselves like

my dad's never done

any of that internal work because that's

not what men did in his generation and

you know sure there's exceptions but as

a whole

um my dad's generation was different and

I watched the younger generation from

from me

and the way that they're

fluid and love each other and and gender

is a social construct and these walls

are getting torn down and I'm like I'm

trying to keep up with it and you know

I'm having my own moments of just like

wait how does this fit and what what is

this and I feel old all of a sudden and

they're just like don't you get it like

this is all fake and I'm and I'm trying

to you know so I think that going to to

my dad there is a certain level of just

communication about emotions that I'm

really used to that he's not because he

probably never had those conversations

with his dad his dad was like in the war

and had five kids and like just getting

a meal on you know a meal to each one of

those five boys in the house was a

struggle alone much less trying to talk

about how you felt that wasn't part of

the day but if he wasn't gonna respond

then

and you had a chance to say those last

words what would those words be

irrespective of response or impact or

feedback

you know what I've come to the

conclusion of

is that

we're all doing

the best that we can do

my dad's doing the best that he could do

and

instead of me because I have a lot of

friends that

didn't have a dad at all

their dad pieced out you know

and I think it's easy to particularly

when you have kids

you have this idea of

what your parents are going to be like

as grandparents

and my grandparents or my parents are

great grandparents I want them around

more

not even for the child care just because

I think that family is so important I

think that nuclear family is so

important I think that we have

um

you know we we come from like

communities

where

we helped raise children together and

you know

this porch looked out over to this porch

and we had actual tangible

um human connection

and I I think that

I've desired something in my

um in having kids and reflecting on my

own childhood and what that was like

with my parents now that I'm a dad

and I'm like oh I didn't do any of this

with my dad

I didn't do damn what was my life like

oh he you know but instead of looking at

it like

in any way I am a victim because my dad

works so much or you know whatever it

was it's like my dad was amazing he

worked so much and he provided

and he sent my eyes to rehab

and he sent me to college

and he showed up with love and

instead of like the opposite of all of

that like he's not doing this this this

this this I want him to be this this

it's like my dad is who he is and um

it's made me who I am

ensure I desire a closeness that I don't

know if we'll ever get to you know we're

in an open level of just hanging out

being okay with that