We are not a monogous species. It's a

social construct. And I get attacked for

saying things like this. But sexual

monogamy from an evolution point of view

is not a good idea. That's why we have a

reasonably high rate of people who have

extramarital affairs. So do you think

we're all somewhat pretending to be

monogous? Who do you think struggles

with it more, men or women? And you said

that there's not a difference in

well-being and satisfaction between

polyamory or monogamy. Absolutely not.

How do we know this? Because we've done

studies on it. And I've committed the

last two decades of my life to

understand the neuroscience of love. Dr.

animation is the Oxford trained

evolutionary anthropologist using

science to decode attraction, attachment

styles, love addiction, and now the

crucial roles of the father. So, here's

the thing. When we look for a partner,

we don't know we're doing it, and it

involves two very distinct areas of the

brain. So, there's the unconscious

stage. That's where you take in loads of

sensory information about them. So, for

example, if you're a woman, you can

smell genetic compatibility. Wait, so

men can't smell women, but women can

smell them? You can smell them, but it's

not going to give you any information

about genetic compatibility. So, your

brain is going to help you assess

whether they're any good for you. If you

get a good ping, certain chemicals, the

very core of the brain take away the

fear. It gives you motivation. Now,

human love is so complicated. So, for

example, the chemistry that underpins

love is also involved in

neurodeiversity. So, if I have ADHD or

autism, how am I more likely to struggle

in love? This is really, really

important. First of all,

Dr. Machan, why are you talking about

fatherhood? The way our culture treats

fathers is wrong. The myths we carry

about fathers are wrong. Men have a very

specific role in child development. And

I wasn't expecting to find this when I

first started, but it's fundamental for

a child to thrive and survive and be

successful. So, what we're finding is

this has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to this show

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continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much.

Dr. Anna Machan, what is the the mission

you've so far committed your life to?

And and I guess adding to that, why I've

committed the last two decades of my

life to understanding human love and

understanding human close relationships.

Because as an anthropologist, I

understand that love sits at the center

of what it is to be human. If you strip

everything else away and you just you've

got your food, you've got your water,

the next thing you need are your

relationships, is your love. And we are

so lucky as a species to experience love

in quite a complex way with many

different types of people and beings.

And we know that it's like the number

one thing in terms of your your health,

mental, physical, your longevity, your

happiness, your well-being. And I think

we need to understand it particularly in

a world where we're starting to get a

lot of input in terms of technology and

AI and the world is getting quicker. We

need to go back to who we are really at

our core and what love really is. is and

and I suppose that's what I've I've

given my life over to is to really

explain to people who are you because

your love is your identity essentially.

And you use the word anthropologist

there. What is an anthropologist? Okay.

So an anthropologist is somebody who

studies the human species. I'm an

evolutionary anthropologist which means

I sit at the scientific end of it. You

consider sort of the cultural end or the

scientific end. And I study how

evolution has shaped us and also why

things evolved. So for example, why did

love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve?

Um, and I use lots and lots of different

techniques, scanning and genetics and

all these different things to be able to

answer that question. I've got another

book sat in front of me here which is I

guess somewhat linked to love which is

about fathers. Yeah. So, how did how did

these two things come together? We've

got a book here about love and then

we've got a book about fatherhood and

you're you're very well known for

talking on the subject of fatherhood.

What what is the link? How did the link

come to be and why why are you talking

about fatherhood? We have the wrong idea

about fathers. The way our culture deals

with fathers, treats fathers is wrong.

The myths we carry about fathers are

wrong. The influence they have on their

children and ultimately on our society

is fundamental. So the link came because

I had a child and like most couples who

have a baby, you know, we talked about

it. We were like, we're going to going

to start trying to have a baby. Then we

became pregnant, which was great. Did

the pregnancy test together. Went to the

antiatal classes, went to the scans, all

wonderful. went in to have the baby and

it didn't turn out how it was supposed

to. I was very, very ill. I lost a lot

of blood. My daughter was poorly when

she was born. And afterwards, I was

offered loads of counseling. Would you

like a debrief? Would you like? And I

was like, well, to be absolutely honest,

I'm okay cuz I passed out. I literally

don't remember anything. But my husband

witnessed it all. And he basically saw a

car crash in slow motion with two people

in it who he loved very deeply. Um, and

I completely understand why it was a

very stressful information. But nobody

explained to him what was happening. And

so they mopped me up, took my baby, took

her to neonatal care and left him in the

room on his own. And I was breathing

very shallowly and he was scared. And

the cleaner came in and said and was

cleaning away. And he just said um to

the cleaner, do you think she's dead?

Cuz I was breathing so shallowly. And

the cleaner went, no, I don't think so,

mate. I think they would have told you

if she was dead. But after that, he

couldn't talk about the birth. He

couldn't imagine the birth. He couldn't

deal with the emotions from the birth

for a good two years afterwards. And he

was really worried about having another

kid. And this made me really angry

actually cuz I was like, hold on, we

went into this together and he's

literally been discarded like he doesn't

matter. And to me, he's fundamentally

important. And then as our daughter

grew, I saw the amazing bond he built

with her, how integral he was to her

life. And so when I went back to

university at Oxford to study and to do

my work, I thought, well, I'm an

anthropologist. Okay, let's look up what

do we know about fathers in our society.

And there's literally nothing. There was

a lot of work on absent fathers. Uh, and

their impact is is fundamental. We know

that. And there was a lot of quite

stereotypical work on young fathers,

teenage fathers. Nothing on the majority

of dads who whether they co-reside or

not stick around. So I started with some

really simple questions. uh what happens

to a man when he becomes a father? Does

he alter biologically, psychologically?

How does he build his bond with his

child? What's the nature of that bond?

Does he have a role in child development

separate to that to mom? Because when I

started 20 years ago, the mantra was

dads didn't undergo any changes. Uh dads

did not have a bond like mom to their

children. It was not as intense and it

certainly wasn't an attachment

relationship, which we all know are

really intense, important relationships.

And as an evolutionary anthropologist, I

was like that that can't be right

because human fatherhood is rare. We are

one of only 5% of mammals that have

investing fathers and we're the only ape

now. For something that rare to evolve,

it has to have had a purpose because it

led to amazing anatomical social

upheavalss. So that's what I began to do

20 years ago. I started asking those

questions. I recruited my first group of

15 firsttime fathers when their partners

were three months pregnant and off we

went. So the question that's front of

mind for me is is what is it upstream

that made us devalue the role of a of a

father? Where did that come from?

Because fathers are somewhat seen as

surplus a requirement I think. Where did

that come from? It's cultural. It's

entirely cultural because there are

cultures in the world who don't think

that and fathers are very very integral.

So in fact one of the most hands-on

fathers in the world is from the aka

tribe in the Congo. They keep physical

contact with their children for 50% of

the day. They carry them around. They

co-sleep. Not the mom. They co-s sleep

with the with the child. They are the

one that that carries the far the child

through the jungle when they're hunting

and gathering. They are the one that

sings to the child, reads stories to the

child. They even and this is the bit

that always gets the headlines. They

even will offer a nipple to soo the

child until the mother is ready to

breastfeed. So, it's cultural. We have

this idea that and it's partly it partly

came very much from the Victorian period

where fathers were seen to be

disciplinarians and and providing the

money and that was the Victorian idea of

being a father. It's also to do with our

with our with our politics in society

for a long time. So women weren't able

to go out to work and that's where we've

remained till very very recently. But

there's no biology behind that. That's

entirely cultural. And I think also it's

very much the case. Yes, women today we

have contraception so we can control our

our production of children. We can earn

our own money. We can protect ourselves.

We can look after ourselves. So actually

in one sense you think well yeah what's

the dad for? because I can do all those

things which historically the father had

to do when women's positions were

different. But and we've sort of carried

on with that and there's become this

mantra of actually then we just we just

don't need them. I mean I've even been

to lectures where they've decided that

the Y chromosome is going to become

obsolete and that we really won't need

dads at all even to conceive children at

some point and which to me sounds

ludicrous and that's where it's come

from and we've embedded that and we

embedded it in our media. So dads were

always bumbling or useless or absent.

you know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate

bumbling, useless father, and we laughed

at it. We think it's funny. Maybe the

way that these these two subjects

initially do sort of dovetail into each

other, is when we think about the state

of love and the role of men and women,

you touched a bit on there when you

talked about how women are earning more

and more, so men are becoming a little

bit more apparently obsolete in what

they can offer to a monogous

relationship. There were some stats that

I was looking at before you arrived, and

I'll read them out to you. The stats say

that only 38% of single women are

actively looking to date versus 61% of

single men. Um, which is a huge gap.

Morgan Stanley projects that 45% of

women aged 25 to 44 will be single by

2030.

Um, in England and Wales, a record

almost 40% of adults have never married.

For women aged 30 to 34, the figure is

now almost 60%.

Which is the lowest ever. Women initiate

roughly 70% of divorces, showing a

greater willingness to exit marriages

that are unsatisfying than men. And

obviously, I think one of the points you

were sort of touching on there is that

women are now much more educated um as

it relates to things like college

degrees compared to men. There's this

bigger picture around relationships and

love that kind of sits in the background

of this and women's rise in

independence, which I think we could all

agree is is always going to be a

positive thing. But downstream from that

is a clear issue in how we form monogous

heterosexual relationships these days.

And also like

you know part of the reason one of many

reasons I wanted to speak to you is I

was I was thinking about my friendship

group and the women that I know and more

I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of

couple of weeks ago and I I said to her

like what like what are your goals and

she said I currently have about 150

plants and I want to get to about 250

plants. I I said to her do you want you

want to get married? You want to have

kids? She went no interest in that. What

I want is I want to get to the point

where I have financial freedom. so I can

buy a house and I want to get over 200

plants. Yeah. And this is it sounds kind

of funny, but it's an increasingly

familiar story that I'm hearing which is

once upon a time the goal would have

been get married, you know, have kids,

build a life together. Now it's more

individualistic.

What's your thoughts here? What is the

state of love at the moment? Well, it's

definitely more individualistic. We've

become a more individualistic society.

So we are looking more at yes what do I

want rather than what what in a way

contributes to community which is what

collectivist societies do women in the

past had to get married you couldn't

have children out of wedlock that was

definitely not acceptable you had to get

married because uh that's where your

financial security was and that's what

you did quite often those marriages

weren't based on love they were based on

very pragmatic decisions about this is

where I need to be so women have been

freed from that they don't have to do

that anymore the other thing to say is

they've realized that romantic love

isn't the only love in the box what we

call their key survival critical

relationship in many cases. So the

relationship that's going to support

them emotionally, physically,

practically, all those sorts of things

are their female friends, their chosen

families and that's who they're turning

to. And that's why we're seeing less and

less women saying that romantic love is

a priority or parental love is a

priority. And in one sense, that's great

because actually it's showing that all

these loves are equal and I can I can

love in that way. And I think that's

wonderful in one sense, but yes, it does

mean that we're turning away from that

idea of long-term cohabiting

companionship. And so when people say to

me, for example, is marriage going to

die? Are we going to end? No, I don't

think it is. We will always, for

example, have a ritualistic marking of a

romantic relationship, whatever sex you

are and whatever sexuality you are, I

think that will always exist. But we're

going through a bit of a sea change.

We're also seeing it in older women,

post-menopausal women, because it's only

really very recently that we've got to a

point where we have a long

post-menopausal lifespan as women.

Usually, you know, 100 years ago, if you

got to 50, which is the age for

menopause, the standard age, you were

lucky if you were still alive. But now

that period of time could be 20, 30, 40,

even 50 years. So I think women post 50

and they there's been a massive uptick

in post50 divorces instigated by women

is they look at their partner and they

think you were a great dad. I selected

you when when that's what I wanted to

do. I wanted to have children. I wanted

to build fun. But I look at you now and

I think but is this the person I want to

do the next phase of my life with

because that's a very different set of

needs. And so we're seeing women

actually looking no do you know what I'm

going to start a fresh? I'm going to do

something different. And it might be

they look for a different relationship

or they might be yeah they decide I'm

not going to have another romantic

relationship. What is the difference

that needs just out of curiosity? I want

to make sure that my partner doesn't

dump me when she hits 50. Okay. The

difference is so when we when we are

younger and we look for a partner for a

romantic relationship we don't know

we're doing it. There are two stages of

attraction in romantic love. There's the

unconscious stage which we share with

all the mammals and then there's the the

conscious stage which is very different.

That involves your neoortex which

looking at this is this big wnup bit on

the outside. Human love is special

because it involves two very distinct

areas of the brain. So this is the

limbic area of your brain. This bit in

the center here, that's your unconscious

brain. That's where your emotions sit,

where nurturing behaviors sit, where

attachment behaviors been. It's very

evolutionarily ancient. It's been around

for millions and millions of years. And

this is where initially attraction

starts. And what you do is you lock eyes

with someone across a crowded room and

you take in loads of sensory information

about them. So you take in visual

information. What do they look like?

What does their body shape tell me about

their value? How are they moving? Do

they look healthy? If you're a woman,

you will give them a good sniff. Um, and

you can smell genetic compatibility.

Wait, so men can can't smell women, but

women can smell them. Well, you can

smell them, but it's not going to give

you any information about genetic

compatibility. So, what what happens is

a woman, the major hystocompatibility

complex, what's that? It underpins your

immune system. It's a complex set of

genes. And bizarrely that set of genes

also underpins your smell, your ability

to smell your olfactory system. Okay?

And in women they can smell how

genetically close a male's MHC is major

hystocompatibility complex. How close it

is to theirs because you don't want too

close because you don't want to breed.

Also you want it distant because then

your child gets a really lovely diverse

immune system because they've got a

diverse set of genes underpinning it. So

you smell them. It's not a conscious

thing. So people say to me, "Oh, but you

know what about after shave? What about

perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do

not know you're doing it. And one of the

things that will be fed into your limbic

area is the result of that little test.

If you're a woman, what what do they

smell like? How do they know this? Have

they tested this? Okay, we've tested

this in several ways. There was the very

famous t-shirt test which tell people

love. Um where you make a load of men

put on a very plain t-shirt. They're not

allowed to wash. They're not allowed to

use deodorant. Not allowed to do

anything. Wear it for 24 hours. Then we

put it in some ziploc bags and we went

get some poor unsuspecting woman to

sniff them all. And the idea is that the

one she finds most attractive to sniff

is the one which is genetically furthest

away from her. And it does work. It

works. When you genotype her, you can

see that they are different. We don't

have to do that anymore. We have very

sophisticated genotyping technology now.

If you really wanted to, there's a

company in Switzerland that will do it

for you. So you can spit on something,

send it off with your partner, and they

will tell you how close your major

hystocompatibility complexes are. I'm

just wondering why men didn't evolve to

be able to do that. We think it's

probably because the cost to a woman of

getting it wrong and having a baby who

is basically too genetically close is

much greater than it is for a man

because she is basically taking herself

out of that opportunity to to reproduce

for nine months plus the bit after to

look after that child. And so that's a

really long period of time. Whereas a

man, it's not that costly. Okay. So

you've taken in all that information

from the sensors. It's all woring around

in here. And what your brain is actually

doing is your brain has got a very

complicated algorithm which is working

out the biological market value of the

person in front of you. Now the

biological market value is how likely

that person is to be reproductively

successful. Because from an evolutionary

point of view, that's the whole point of

your existence. Whether you want kids or

not, guys, that's the point is you have

to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy

kids, raise them to maturity so they can

reproduce because we just want your

genes from an evolutionary standpoint.

We're not interested in you as a

personality. And so you want somebody

who has got the highest likelihood of

being good at that. And we can tell that

from lots of things to do with how

someone looks, the pitch of their voice,

how they smell. What men actually do is

they look at the waist hip ratio. You

don't know you're doing it, but

eyetracking experiments show that men do

it. They don't know that it's completely

unconscious. Wonderful studies been done

with people walking down the street with

we not mentioning to them what we're

looking for. They're wearing eyetracking

uh technology and what they do is the

first thing they glance at even if they

don't know it is the waist tip ratio

before. For example, they will look at

the face and what they're calculating is

what that ratio is because we know

cross-culturally the most attractive

ratio is a 7. And that is actually a

classic hourglass

cross-culturally. Cross-culturally if we

go and it's nothing to do with weight

because some cultures like bigger

weights than other cultures. Nothing to

do with weight. It's to do with the

ratio. And so if we were show if we show

that ratio to different cultures, they

will go it's that one. And the reason

for that is there is a direct link

between that ratio and for example

fertility. So if a woman has that it

shows she's got high circulating

estrogen. It shows she's not near

menopause because when we go to

menopause we we get more of a male

figure. It goes towards one the ratio

because of the drop in estrogen and the

and the buildup in testosterone. So we

know that there's a link between 7 and a

range of illnesses uh chronic illnesses

such as diabetes, heart disease, certain

forms of cancer. So actually what you're

assessing there is how healthy how

fertile is this woman? So, if I take

myself off the market for a period of

time, am I going to end up with some

kids? And is she healthy to raise them?

In those eyetracking studies, what do

women look at? Women look at slightly

different things. And for women, what's

really interesting is it's not as

visual. So, women look at the at the

shoulder waist ratio. So, that's Yes,

there we go. And what you're looking for

as a woman is a triangle. So, nice broad

shoulders, narrow waist. Okay. Okay. Now

the ideal there is 1.6.

What I will say before men rush off and

measure their weight is really only

Olympic athletes have 1.6. 1.6 meaning

the top half should be 1.6 bigger than

than your waist. Okay. So if my waist is

let's say 100. Yes. That's how bad my

math is. Yes. This needs to be 160. 160.

Okay. So my waist is 100. The top is

160. Yes. Okay. Okay. But that's

actually really only Olympic athletes.

Please everyone don't rush off and

worry. Um but what that's showing is

that shows certain things which are

desirable in a male. Um so things like

physical strength. So if you have a big

upper body and a narrow waist, first of

all, it shows you're not holding fat

around here, which is a real sign of ill

health for men. It shows you that you're

very fit around here. It shows that

you've got very broad shoulders. You are

muscular. You are able to to protect and

provide. It's a sign of reasonably high

testosterone. Testosterone is linked to

success in men. Okay? So it shows that

I'm I'm a successful person in our

society that's successful socially and

successful financially. Testosterone is

linked to success in men. Yes. Yes.

Because it makes you very competitive.

Okay. So we get all these things. You

take all that in. You take in that

visual information. You do your little

algorithm in your brain which obviously

you don't know is happening. If you get

a good ping as in yes this person has a

good biological market value. I like

that. What happens is in the very core

of the brain in the middle. So this is

this is the very core of the brain here.

There's a a structure in there called

the nucleus cumbent. It's full of

dopamine and oxytocin receptors that

fires off, goes completely mad if we

look at it on the screen. And dopamine

and oxytocin flood that system. And the

reason why they are important is in a

way they are the hormones of attraction.

So oxytocin lowers your inhibitions to

starting new relationships. Okay? So it

takes away the fear. And the way it does

that is it quietens your amydala. So the

amigdula is a tiny little structure down

here at the bottom and it it's where

fear sits and that's the thing that if

you're not feeling confident has that

monologue in the back of your head going

okay you're just you're just not very

good at this. You're going to walk

across the bar. You're going to say

hello and they're going to humiliate

you. So it quietens that area. We see

less activity there. So you've got more

confidence. Also oxtoin makes you feel

quite chilled. It's quite nice. And then

dopamine is also released because

dopamine is your hormone of motivation.

And if you just had oxytocin, you might

be so chilled, you sat on the barcel and

you did not move because you're having a

lovely time. So dopamine is there to go,

no, you actually have to go across the

bar and you have to say hello. And so

they work really, really well together.

And they also work together to make your

brain more plastic. So I have to ask you

then, if I'm a single person, yes, and

with what you've just told me about the

brain, I'm trying to increase the

probability that someone will be

attracted to me and form a relationship

to me. M what kind of behavior do I need

to be embodying to cuz I want to I want

to reduce the fear part of their brain

so that they're they're more comfortable

and I want that oxytocin and dopamine to

be firing. Yes, absolutely. So quite

often people say to me how can I hack my

first date? So the way you can hack your

first date is you can do an activity

which releases betaendorphine and

dopamine and oxytocin. The best one I

have found which I I appreciate is a

niche interest is some form of dancing

in couples. ballroom dancing, you know,

tango, whatever it is, because first of

all, you're touching. So, you get

released oxytocin and betaendorphine.

They're both released by touch. You're

moving around. As any gym bunny knows,

exercise produces betaendorphine.

Hopefully, you're not that great at

this. So, you're going to laugh a lot

because you're actually a little bit

rubbish. Okay? So, you're releasing lots

and lots of lovely oxytocin dopamine and

betendorphine doing that. Then

afterwards, you need to go and have a

curry. Okay? Because betaendorphine

evolved initially as your body's

painkiller. That's stellar role it has.

Over time it's been co-opted into our

social uh sphere. But we know you have

pain receptors in your gut. So if you

have a curry, your gut gets a little bit

irritated because it's a little bit

spicy. So don't have a coma. And it

produces

and and we know that that will also help

you help you feel more euphoric, help

you feel more relaxed and help that

person be more attracted to you because

they will also get a hit of it. So that

that's your ideal date. I appreciate

it's very niche and not everyone will

want to do that, but there are ways and

then I'm going to take her to the comedy

store. Yeah. And have a really good

belly laugh. A proper laugh produces

beta endorphin. Okay. Yeah. Had we

finished with the Well, so what you're

doing, your biological market value

comes out. As I say, you hit dopamine

oxytocin. Your amydala quietens. You

feel much more confident. You feel much

more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to

walk across the bar and off you go and

you strike up conversation. And that is

the way attraction works in all mammals.

It's completely unconscious. So you

don't know any of this is happening.

What's different in humans is very

quickly after that, particularly once

they've opened their mouth, it all

starts kicking off in the outer area of

the brain. So your neoortex. So the

major social area of the brain is here.

This is your prefrontal cortex. And your

prefrontal cortex is where all those

social uh abilities sit, you know. So um

trust uh reciprocity ability to maintain

ability to abstract about your

relationship or ability to daydream

about what it's going to be and that's

where all that sits. So we start seeing

firing off here and what's really what's

really important for human love is there

is a connection between this area of the

brain which is known as the striatum

which is unconscious and this area of

the brain the prefrontal cortex. So your

unconscious brain and your conscious

brain can work together in attraction

and also this area of the brain at the

back which is known as the mentalizing

empathizing area of the brain. So we

need to have empathy in relationships.

It's the basis of love. So understanding

someone's emotional state and being able

to respond to it appropriately and also

mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind

readading. What's their intention? What

are they going to do next? You need it

for conversation. You also need it to

spot a cheat

because you need to check someone's

intention. So the mentalizing area of

the brain is important. The sad bit and

I'll explain this in a minute is is

unfortunately that bit shuts down a

little bit which isn't very helpful but

we'll talk about that. So then as soon

as they open their mouth you start to

contemplate them consciously and what

you contemplate consciously in terms of

your attraction can actually override

the unconscious bit. So you might have

had this amazing feeling of, you know,

lust and chemistry as you walk across

the bar thinking, "Wow, this person's

amazing. I'm feeling astonishing." They

open their mouth and they say something

to you which is just, you know,

unconscionable or awful or they've got

no sense of humor or they're really

unkind or whatever it might be and

suddenly that bit will step in and go,

"Uh-uh, nope, this person is not for

me." And that can override the biology.

But that's why what we say and I always

say the brain is the sexiest organ in

the body because ultimately it's what

you express with your brain that is

going to really determine whether or not

this love is going to go anywhere. And

that's what you say. Because ultimately

as humans the thing that makes us the

most successful species on the planet is

our brain. Not your shoulder waist

ratio, not your waist hip ratio. It's

actually your brain. Because you want

your kid to have the most creative,

flexible, funny, intelligent,

emotionally intelligent brain they can

have. And that's what you're looking for

in a partner in the long term. So based

on what you know about attraction and

falling in love and all those things,

what is like the worst thing one could

say in terms of the themes, the types of

things someone could say that would just

completely put you off. So I think

probably the absolutely worst thing you

can say and this comes from a lot of

data saying what's the most important is

to say something unkind.

So we know regardless of everything

else, the one thing that people want in

a long-term relationship is somebody

kind.

So something critical of somebody else

in the room, particularly something crit

I mean, you don't know what that

person's interests are, but something

critical about something that's very

important to them. Don't be alarmed. The

waiter, waitress. Yeah. Exactly. That's

why how people treat I mean, personally,

I find people who treat waiters

enraging, you know, badly enraging. Um,

that's why because it's a rare

representation of who you are at your

core or they express a value which goes

completely against a value that you have

because we know in terms of long

long-term compatibility, it's things to

do with personality, it's things to do

with long-term values or beliefs that

are the most important things. So, let's

say somebody said something horrendously

homophobic or something like that or

something racist, that's an immediate

right. No, this person is not for me.

What about Ix? Because I see seem to

have emerged as like a it's so it's got

a friend of mine who's she's never been

in a relationship. She's um she's just

37 years old, 38 years old. And I

remember one day she was like, "Steve,

what am I doing wrong?" And I'm not

listen I was never really a dater. So I

have no right to to tell someone what

they're doing right or wrong. But she

showed me her dating profile. And in a

dating profile she said to me, I said no

to this guy and I looked at this guy

he's like a he's like a stud.

He's beautifully good-looking. was

really really kind in the messages he

had sent. She goes, "But if you look in

the background of his photo, there's

boxes on top of his wardrobe." And she

was like, "So I said no." Right now,

from an evolutionary perspective, you

can go, "Okay, maybe he's living at his

mom's house. Maybe he's just moved in.

Maybe what? Whatever. Maybe he's not a

settled person." But really, there is

become a culture of women and men

excluding each other based on extremely

surface level things. Now I'm like, does

that is that the preffrontal cortex

doing its job or is that something else?

It is the prefrontal cortex doing its

job. I would say it's not doing its job

terribly well. The ick is a really

recent thing that was generated by

social media. And this idea of narrowing

in closer and closer and closer and what

people like to call red flags and you

don't get a lot of information from

online dating because you don't get a

lot of sensory information to help you

make a decision. So people become more

and more obsessive. What's in the image?

What's in the image? What can I get

about this person? And they start to

become obsessed with tiny tiny things.

What ultimately people find attractive

is very very complicated. It's there are

so many different things that feed into

attraction. Whether or not somebody has

boxes on top of their wardrobe is very

unlikely to be even vaguely important in

terms of compatibility. I don't think

they should be called dating apps. I

think they should be called introduction

apps. And that's actually what the great

Helen Fcher said. She said they're

introduction apps. They broaden your

pool. They make more people available to

you. That's it. You're not having a date

on that app. You're not learning about

that person on that app. You're

literally seeing them for the first

time. And as soon as you can get in the

room with them and you can let your

brain do what it's really good at, half

a million years of evolution, that's

what you should do because they handicap

your brain. They give you very little

information to go into that algorithm.

You said something really interesting

there which kind of dubtales into what I

was saying about my friend who's never

dated but is struggling in dating. I

know a growing number of people that are

going on like a hundred dates a year and

having no luck. And just like

mathematically I go surely there must

have been someone suitable in that pool

of 100 people a year that you've met.

Yeah. What is going on here? It's two

things I think. First of all, as I've

said, it's the low cost of dating apps.

So in the old days when I was dating,

going on a date was a real investment of

time and energy. So you would probably

meet someone at work, you'd meet someone

at a bar, you'd meet someone through a

friend, which was a real blind date. And

you'd, you know, spend your time

thinking, what am I going to wear? and

I've got to go somewhere with this

person and spend some time with this

person, probably some financial

investment as well, get myself all

ready, spend an evening with them. And

that was how you were going to meet

somebody. So, you invested time and you

weren't going to do that unless you were

serious, to be honest. Because

otherwise, I'll stay at home. I'll do

something else. I'll go to the pub with

my friends. Whereas now, because we can

do it, we can literally go on a dating

app anywhere on the tube, while we're

cooking dinner, while we're watching

Netflix, anytime we want. It's low cost,

low investment. I read a study that

showed it was in a different context,

but it essentially showed that the

amount you invest in something

correlates to the amount that you

appreciate the thing. Absolutely. They

did this study where they let people

into a boring um forum without having to

pass any entry test and then they asked

them how much they appreciated the

boring forum and people said it's it's

uh it's boring. Yes. And then they got

another group of people, they made them

go through this sort of rigorous test to

get into this boring forum and then they

asked them how much do you appreciate

the forum. They said it's great. Yeah.

I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but it

just showed this link between the amount

you invest in a process is the more you

you appreciate it. And I think back to

being I don't know 14 years old going on

my first date and the the whole process

of getting ready to go to the cinema and

thinking about my outfit for 3 days and

then going there and being nervous and I

didn't have much money so this was like

a big thing and then how much you know I

almost felt like I fell in love with the

person irrespective just because of the

effort I'd put in I feel like I fell in

love with them. So So yeah. So that's so

so it's partly the low cost thing. It's

partly because all those people that

if you were doing it in person, your

brain would filter out. Let's say there

were 100 people in the room, your brain

would quite quickly filter out most of

them as no no no no no no maybe one or

two might because you can't filter in

that way on an app. You kind of take the

punt on all these dates because you're

like otherwise how else am I going to

actually meet this person? you can't

just have a casual chat by the coffee

machine at work or you know meet them

through some friends in the pub where

you would do that assessment without

really making that much effort whereas

because on a dating app the only way you

can meet that person is to actually go

on a date with them and do all that you

will end up going on a hundred to do

that filtering process. So it's partly

that as well and the last thing is the

paradox of choice. Yeah. So, we are

really, really bad at making choices

when there's a lot of options. And the

paradox of choice is very powerful in

relation to dating apps because

literally, particularly if you're

good-looking and you get a lot of

matches, there's like a smorggas board

of people out there that you can carry

on flipping or you can make a choice.

And it's our brains are not set up for

that. You know, a 100 years ago when we

were trying to find a partner, you would

maybe have the people in your village

who you grew up with to choose from. If

you had a horse, you could maybe have

the people in the next village or even a

town. Wow. And that was who you chose

from and it was a very small pool. Now

you can go anywhere in the world, turn

on your dating app and possibly have,

you know, hundreds of people to meet and

your brain can't do that. I mean, we can

all think about it as well in the

context of restaurants. If you go to

Thailand, Yeah. they give you like a a

catalog. Yes. The menu is a catalog.

They're like, "We will make anything."

Yeah. And you sit there for like Yeah.

45 minutes thinking, "Do I want fish,

chicken, eggs?" But then you go to like

a London fancy restaurant and there's

like we do this. This is it. So that's

why you end up with people who Yes. go

on 100 dates and don't actually

end up with anybody because they haven't

had that opportunity to filter. Monogamy

and polyamory. Yes. So can you define

both of those words? And um the thing

that I found really striking is I think

I heard you say that satisfaction in

either dynamic there polyamory or

monogamy is roughly the same because I

thought people in monogous relationships

were supposed to be way more happy than

people that are in polyamorous

relationships. No, not at all. So

monogamy is a relationship state where

there are two people who are

we okay we have to find two sorts of

monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that

is you are exclusive to that other

person sexually. You have sex with

nobody else and there is social monogamy

and that is you live with that person

exclusively. So within the UK, most

people, let's say if they have children,

are socially monogous. They live in a

household with their children with two

people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy,

you can be socially monogous and not

sexually monogous. So they're two

different things. But monogamy, if we

talk about it in sort of lay terms, is

two people who are exclusive to each

other in terms of love, in terms of sex,

and in terms of possibly living

together. Monogamy itself is a social

construct mostly. We are not a monogous

species. There are in fact very few

monogous species in the world. Maybe I

think I read a book the other day. It

says something like 0.002%

of the animals on this planet are

monogous because what you will see in

the wild and what you see mostly with

humans is social monogamy. They live

together but we know that the infidelity

rate is sits generally at around 50%. So

50% of those households are not sexually

monogous. Um and in fact from an

evolutionary point of view being

sexually monogous is a really quite bad

idea because um you are limiting

yourself to a very narrow gene pool and

that's why there are very few creatures

in the world that are truly sexually

monogous. I when I was doing my masters

my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons at

the time were known to be the monogous

ape and he studied he did a really

longitudinal study and he was the first

to realize that no they weren't. They

were all sneaking off and doing it

behind the rock with somebody else but

they were living together. But the

female was going to find some better

jeans somewhere else. This guy,

brilliant parent, not great jeans. I'm

going to go behind a rock and mate with

this really good-looking gibbon over

here because I'm going to get some good

jeans and then he's going to raise the

kid. And the and the guy is like, well,

you know, I'm obviously going to have

offspring here, but actually, you know,

mating with another female is not

particularly costly to me. So, I'll just

go and do that over there and let's hope

she can raise them on her own or maybe

her partner will raise them for me. So,

there are very few. So we have monogamy

in in mainly in the west um because it's

a socially prescribed

form of organization and it was imposed

because it is a form of control. It

mainly sits in terms of rules

particularly in religion but also there

were many legal rules. For example in in

Britain you can't be you can't have two

marriages. You can't be a bigamist. And

it's about making everybody control.

Because if we if we all just gave in

constantly to precisely what our drives

were saying, there'd be kind of chaos.

And those in power wouldn't be able to

predict what anybody is going to do

because actually I'm just going to go I

feel, you know, sexually attracted to

whoever that is over there. I'm going to

go marry with them, but I'm going to

come back and live here, but then I've

got a kid over there and it's it's all

really really confusing. So over time

when civilization first arose the more

complex we got and as we started to live

together in cities those in control were

like okay I really needed to be able to

predict what these lesser beings are

going to do so I'm going to impose

monogamy you can only live with one

person and basically have sex with one

person nobody actually ever only had sex

with one person but we're going to look

like we do and those are the rules and

that's why we have legitim legitimacy

rules about children and inheritance and

all that kind of thing because it

maintains control. So monogamy is yeah

simply a social construct. It's not

something that we've biologically

evolved to do. And we know that part you

know there are many countries in the

world where monogamy isn't what is

prescribed. How are those cultures

getting on the ones that aren't

monogous? Fine. What what cultures are

those? So you tend to get so so for

example in certain religions. So in

certain forms of Islam for example men

can have many wives. There are certain

um tribes which exist within sort of

South America and in certain areas of

Africa where you can have many wives.

For example, there are some um groups in

Nepal in the Himalayas where we have

what's known as polyandry. So one woman

has many husbands. Um usually the reason

why these different um groupings evolved

like monogamy is it's something to do

with economics generally. So for example

in Nepal in these areas because they

still have um male inheritance of land.

If let's say we've got a family farm and

there's five brothers if all of those

five brothers split the inheritance then

that farm would become uneconomic. You

wouldn't be able to farm it and make

money. So over time what's involved is

one woman will marry all the brothers so

that when they inherit the farm they

will all get it will carry on passing

down essentially. So if it goes against

our evolutionary design to be in

monogous relationships, doesn't that

mean that there's a lot of people who

are

struggling against their Yeah,

absolutely. And that's why we have a a

reasonably high rate of people who have

extrammarital affairs. It's also why

people who are polyamorous or indeed

have open relationships say actually

it's the more truthful way of being

human because all they're doing is

following their drives and they actually

believe that it's more moral because if

you put forward a monogous front and you

have an affair, you are lying to people.

You are keeping a secret from people you

profess to love. Whereas if you're

polyamorous or you're in an open

relationship, you're actually openly

saying this is my drive. This is the

reality and I'm being truthful with

everybody about it. you can enter a

relationship with me or not on the basis

of truth. And that's what a lot of

polyamorous people particularly will

argue is that they're really

representing what is for most people an

ancestral state. Polyory is difficult

because unlike open relationships, open

relationships such as such as swinging

or or being open, we call them

consensual non- monogamy. That's just

based on sex. So you're not spreading

your love relationship, that emotional

investment, that emotional intimacy

amongst more than one person. Polyamory

is uh being open and having several

sexual partners and also having several

emotionally intimate relationships at

the same time. And I think people

struggle more with that because of the

issues of of jealousy um and the fact

that that goes quite strongly against

even our social ideas about monogamy

where we all sort of live in pairs. I've

got a friend of mine that's uh secretly

in an open polyamorous relationship

basically where there's two couples and

they are together. Yeah. So there's four

of them basically. But they they don't

talk about it publicly because of the

judgment. Yeah. And I think maybe part

of the issue is that judgment that

that's for the polyamorous people I I've

interviewed particularly for my book

that was the major thing is that they

were very happy in the relationship. The

relationships were going really really

well. But what was difficult was being

open about it. Particularly with for

example I'm talking to one woman who was

like like older members of the family.

So she was going to a family wedding.

She was and when she went to these

occasions with this family, she could

only ever take one of her partners. It

always had to be the same partner

because they had no idea the other

partner existed because that would be

very difficult for them to take. Also,

we know from studies that have been done

looking at people's attitudes to

polyamorous people. It they are seen as

immoral. They are seen as um unloving.

They're seen as cold because they have

this ability to love lots of many. They

can't truly love anybody because they're

splitting their heart between all these

different people. Polyamorous people

look at it the other way. As I've said,

they actually think it's very moral

because they're being truthful.

Polyamorous relationships tend to be

based on very open communication. That's

one of the rules is that is everybody

still happy? Is everybody still happy

with where the boundaries are? Has

anybody upset anybody else? So, it's

it's very very open. And they also

believe that and in some ways the

support from this, you know, we are able

to to love many friends at once. We're

able to love many children at once. They

say actually they don't split their

their heart. It's not a zero- sum game

that you get 50% and you get 50%.

Actually, that each time they take

somebody into their lives, their heart

just gets bigger. Do you think we're all

somewhat pretending to be monogamous?

I think some people are

happier with monogamy. We know that

partly from a genetic point of view. Um,

so there are some people, no, I don't

think struggle with it, but I do think a

reasonably significant number of people

probably do. Who do you think struggles

with it more, men or women? It really

depends. Do you know something that one

of the major misnomers in love research

is that there is much difference that

there's this major difference between

men and women. There really isn't. There

really isn't. It's more about who you

are at your core. More about attachment

style, personality, your life

experience, your genetics, all these

sorts of things are much more of a

factor in whether or not you will be

comfortable with monogamy or any of

those aspects than whether or not you're

male or female. And again, you said that

there's not not a difference between

well-being and satisfaction levels

versus monogous and polyamorous

relationships. No, absolutely not. How

do we know this? Because we've done

studies on it. We've we've asked we've

done we use the same satisfaction scales

about, you know, um how satisfied are

you in your relationship with various

aspects of that relationship? And they

come out as being absolutely no

different. For what it's worth, babe,

I'm I'm happy with our relationship. I'm

more than happy being monogamous. I I

find it to be a much much easier life.

Well, the only thing polyamorous people

say is you have to have a cracking

Google calendar. Yeah. The time. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's talk about the first

thousand days. So, you really believe

that the first thousand days of a

child's life are the most critical. Yes.

And linked to this is the role of both

the mother and the father. It's long

been assumed that the father is surplus

to requirements that they're not really

that important. as long as they're, you

know, in the stereotypical context. As

long as they're providing for the

family, they don't really need to be

around.

Is that true? And what do we need to

know about how formative those first

thousand days are for a child? Okay,

first of all, no, it's not true. Um, h

it's absolutely fundamental, I think,

for a child to get some input from a

father. I'm going to define father.

In the west, we're a bit obsessed with

the term biological father. And we

always describe that as the real father.

Even if he's not around, even if that

child has been brought up by a

stepfather, an adoptive father, what we

call a social father, which is a

grandfather, an uncle, a best friend, an

older brother. When I say father, people

assume I mean biological father. I

don't. I mean the man or men who have

stepped in and done the job. That is the

father. So I want to make that very

clear. essful. We know that young people

who grow up without that input, the

risks of having negative outcomes uh is

much higher without having a male role

model or some male role models in your

life. We know that they are much more

likely to display antisocial behavior.

They are much more likely to turn to

crime. They are much more likely to have

addiction issues. They are much more

likely to have mental health issues. and

their outcomes in terms of relationships

going through their life with in other

aspects of their lives are much more

negative and there is a reason for that.

So

men have a very specific role in child

development and I wasn't expecting to

find this when I first started but I've

looked at fathering around the world in

many many different cultures and how men

arrive at that role is very different.

Um the the fathering role is much more

diverse than the mothering role. It's

partly because the mother's role is very

tight by biology, by pregnancy, child

birth, etc. Whereas men, we call it a

facultative role. And what that means is

it's much more flexible. It's much more

open to responding to changes in the

environment and adapting to them to help

the family survive. And we see that all

the way around the world. So dads do it

lots of different ways. It really

depends in your environment what the

major risk is. So in our environment,

you know, we don't really have survival

risks in our environment, not to the

extent that they do in some cultures. So

as a dad in in societies where survival

day-to-day survival is a is a problem

whether it's a war zone or whether there

are major major disease issues then a

dad's role there is to keep that kid

alive. If we look at other environments

where survival is reasonably secure but

economic survival is very on edge then

in those environments we tend to see

fathers again not particularly hands-on

in terms of caretaking or nurturing.

they are the um person in that kid's

life who's going to teach them the

skills they need to go forward and be

economically successful. So if you live

in a pastoral uh environment then they

will be taken into the fields and they

will be taught how to do that role and

then they will be taken to the markets

and they will be taught how to negotiate

and build the social networks they need.

And then in our environment where

economics is reasonably secure

comparatively survival is reasonably

secure comparatively then we are social

survival is important in our world. It

really is who you know. But what I found

regardless of how you were doing it was

all fathers have one major major role

and and it's a bit of a technical term

and I'll explain what it is. They

scaffold the child's entry into the

world beyond the family. And what that

means is they are the parent when it

comes to developing the skills, the

neural connections, the biology, the

physiology that enables you to leave

your family and go out into the world

and be successful, to thrive and

survive. And it starts when a baby is

born. So the attachments that a dad and

a mom build to that baby are just as

powerful as each other but they are

different. So a mom's attachment is

based upon nurture. And uh what we tend

to say with a mom and child attachment

is it's quite exclusive. So if you

imagine um a mother her major role with

that child is to nurture and protect.

And so when she's with that child she

will hold that child to her. It's very

inwardlooking. With dads, they do

nurture. Absolutely. They nurture. They

do all that kind of thing. But they use

that nurturing to build confidence in

that child as a secure base, which is

what attachment's about. And what they

actually do is they turn the child to

the world and they go, "Okay, you're

safe with me. I am always here. But I'm

going to give you a push and you're

going to go out into the world and

you're going to see what the world is

like. And I'm going to be the person who

gives you the resilience and gives you

the social skills and gives you what you

need to be able to do that. And you can

always come back to me when it goes

wrong." So what we say with a with a

father's attachment is it's based on

nurture and challenge. Mom is very

nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm going

to stimulate you and you're going to go

and do something amazing. And and that

is why you need fathers because those

outcomes we have for kids who don't have

an input from a father figure. The

reason why they struggle with antisocial

behavior is it's because dads are the

ones that underpin social behavior.

Pro-social behavior like helping,

sharing, caring, emotional regulation

and inhibition. You need to learn to

regulate your emotions and inhibit them

appropriately to get on in this world.

You can't go into school and you cannot

go into the workplace screaming your

head off when you get angry. That's not

how it works. We know that fathers when

it comes to education, both moms and

dads have a pretty equal input in terms

of academic success. But fathers have a

greater role in instilling appropriate

learning behavior, being in the

classroom, taking in what's going on,

cooperating with other people,

cooperating with the teacher, not

disturbing everybody else, that kind of

thing. They are the ones that underpin

that. How do they do that? Is it

chemically or is it It's several things.

It's partly chemical. So, we know that

ch one of the earliest behaviors you

will see a father do with a child from

about six months on is a thing called

rough and tumble play. Rough and tumble

play. Okay? And men seem to be drawn to

it. Not all men do it, and we'll talk

about the people who don't find it

comfortable, but most men when we just

tell them to go and do something with

their kid, they're not going to do some

coloring. They're going to take the kid

outside. They're going to throw it in

the air. They're going to chase it

around the garden. They're going to

airplane it over their head. They're

going to come in. They're going to

bounce on the sofa. They're going to do

a little wrestling. There's lots of

shrieking. There's lots of energy. And

we see pretty much all western fathers

do that. And the reason for it is

twofold. First of all, it's a very quick

way of bonding with your child. Dads

have to bond through interaction. They

don't have the head start of child's

birth, which is a whole tsunami of

bonding hormones. So, they do it through

interaction. And rough and double play

is a really timeefficient way to do it.

You you get a massive tidal weight of

bonding hormones because it's because

it's so physical. So you get betrayphin

because uh there's lots of touch,

there's lots of giggling. So all of

these things release dopamine, betray,

oxytocin. They bond you tightly to the

child you're playing with and the child

gets them as well. But also it's

starting to underpin some teaching about

social skills because the basis of all

social um behavior is reciprocity is

give and take. And when we play with

someone, it only remains fun if that

reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You

learn empathy because you've got to work

out, is this stuff fun for the other

person or are they no longer enjoying

this? Have I gone too far? You learn to

deal with challenge. Rough and tumble

play can be pretty extreme. It can be a

little bit painful. It can be a little

bit risky. And so you're saying to the

kid, assess the risk. Assess the risk.

Here's the challenge. Can you deal with

the challenge? And all of that underpins

that child's neural development first of

all, but also you're showing by example

social skills. I'm saying reciprocity.

But what's really interesting, and I

love this piece of research, and this

came out from a group in Israel headed

by Ruth Feldman, who is a pioneer of

neuroscience in terms of children and

their parents. she um she found that

dads and children have co-eolved to

prefer to play with each other.

Okay. So, when you're a parent, you will

get a peak in oxytocin from certain

behaviors you do with your child. You'll

always get a bit of oxytocin because

anything you do with them is probably

very nice apart from maybe the tantrums.

But if you're a dad, that peak in

oxytocin comes from playing with your

kid. And then when we look at kids when

they the peak in um oxytocin release

they get when they're playing with their

dads again isn't when daddy gives me a

cuddle which is nice but you know I

don't get a big release it's when I play

with daddy. So is that different to

women? Yes. So women get their peak in

activate of oxytocin released from

nurturing their children particularly

from hugging them. And kids get their

peak in oxytocin when they interact with

mom from mom's cuddles not from playing

with mom. So naturally kids kind of

gravitate towards dads when they want to

have fun. And dad, that's the kind of

thing he will choose to do with his

child. Something that's um physical,

something that's stimulatory. And that's

what's really interesting. And that's in

a way why dad's kind of got the moniker

of, oh, you're the fun parent. You do

all the fun stuff. But actually, play is

fundamental to a child's development.

Absolutely fundamental to their social

development and also building that

really critical bond with dad. If I was

to have a baby now, how would my body,

my my brain, my my body, how would it

change? Okay, it would change in two

ways. There's the biological changes you

would undergo. So this is something that

we didn't know about 20 years ago and I

and other colleagues around the world

have have looked into this and the

reason why we looked into it is because

as I said very rare to have human

fathering really rare 5% of mammals and

the way evolution works is it generally

doesn't cause a whole new behavior to

evolve without giving you some sort of

head start in being able to do it. And

so over time, in the last half a million

years, as fatherhood evolved, men's

brains change, their psychology changes,

their hormones change when they become

fathers to to give you that that prep to

be a parent. Um, so first of all, we see

hormonal changes. The the most studied

and I think probably the most

significant is the drop in testosterone

that occurs when you become a father. So

you will have already experienced a drop

in testosterone because you're in a

long-term relationship. No, no, I

haven't. Yes, you have.

So, when a man enters a long-term

relationship for a first for the first

time, he will experience a drop in

testosterone because testosterone is a

really great chemical uh if you're

dating because it makes you more

competitive and it makes you more

attractive if you if you're in a

heterosexual relationship. So, it makes

you more attractive. But when you start,

you know, living with someone or being

in a long-term relationship, we kind of

need you to shift your focus from the

horizon and looking for another date.

and we need you to focus on that that

one person because from an evolutionary

point of view that person is going to be

the person you have kids with and we'd

quite like you to stick around and look

after those kids. So that happens when

you become a father for the first time

it drops again and it can be up to 30%.

So you lose a third of your testosterone

and the reason for that again is we need

you to focus in on the family. We we

can't have you looking to the horizon

for another mate. We need to focus

because we know that children need input

from just more than just mom to survive.

This sounds all very monogous. I'll talk

about it in a minute. Okay. So, this is

so so you focus in on that child.

Testosterone is also um when it's very

high, it blocks the bonding hormones.

So, dopamine and oxytocin in particular

have less of an effect. So, the

testosterone drops also to enable you to

start bonding with that child because

you are you are behind in terms of

bonding with that child because mom's

gone through pregnancy in in most cases

and given birth. So, she's had a head

start. She's had a load of oxytocin,

dopamine, and beta endorphin during the

birth process. You haven't. So, so we

need to like release those hormones as

soon as we can. One of the ways we do

that is testosterone drops. So, oxytocin

and dopamine are more effective, which

explains why some fathers say that they

don't feel bonded to their child in the

early stages or before. Yeah, I'll

explain why that is as well in a minute.

So, that's oxytocin, dopamine. We also

know just generally from studies whether

men are fathers or not, men with lower

testosterone tend to be more motivated

to care for children. So even if you're

not a father, if we present you with a

crying baby, men with very high

testosterone, the reaction to that is

mainly aversive, like okay, just take it

away from me. And also they get quite

frustrated. They find it quite quite

difficult to deal with as a noise. Men

with low testosterone tend to be more

motivated to pick the baby up, try and

soo the baby and deal with it. And and

whilst it's a difficult noise to hear,

they tend not to experience negative

emotions in relation to it. That drop in

testosterone is really really important.

Over evolutionary time

we think that people were probably

socially monogous for a period of time

which matched the period of time they

needed to ensure that our child's going

to survive. So whilst in our you know in

our um culture it's like no you will

marry till you die, you will be monogous

till you die. In evolutionary history

that probably wasn't the case. Fathers

might have stuck around for probably at

least until uh childhood which is

between about 5 and 10. They might have

stayed along into into the teenage years

depending upon how difficult the

environment was. And also this doesn't

mean they weren't having sex somewhere

else. So this is social monogamy. We

also see changes in oxytocin rises. Uh

if you live with your pregnant partner,

it will start to rise in pregnancy as

well your partners. Um, and that's there

to make sure first of all that your bond

to your partner tightens because you're

about to introduce somebody new into

your relationship and it's not going to

be easy. So, we need that to be tight,

but it's also to start preparing you for

after birth. We know that vasop prein

also rises. Vasopressin is a sort of

form of oxytocin, but in non-human

mammals, it's associated with defense of

the nest. And we think in in male

humans, it's to do with protection and

motivation to protect that child. And

finally, we see an increase in a in a

parenting hormone known as prolactin.

And prolactin is only seen in males in

species that have investing fathers. And

prolactin again is a parenting hormone

that motivates you to care. So you go

through this massive change in hormones.

A lot of men say they don't notice the

drop in testosterone in terms of things

like strength. So I get a contact by a

lot of men saying, "But I I love weight

training. Is this going to ruin my No,

it's not. It doesn't do anything like

that. Think of the number of Olympic

athletes who have kids. You're fine."

Um, what it does do is it it it

increases your emotional vulnerability.

So quite often with fathers, you will

hear they're more empathetic after birth

and also they find it harder to deal

with emotionally difficult things

particularly like on the news. Suddenly

things on the news will make them cry

when they never cried before. Will they

ever get their testosterone levels back?

Only if you don't have contact with your

child.

So if you don't have contact with your

child, you don't have to co-reside with

your child. These studies have been done

across cultures including cultures where

co-resident doesn't occur. Um, as long

as you are in contact with your child,

no, they won't because you you are still

maintained in looking after that child.

If you lose contact with your child,

yes, they will go back up because the

evolutionary drive is to then reproduce

again. So, if I have a kid and then I

stick around and raise the kid,

assuming I stick around, my testosterone

levels will never get back to the level

it was before I had the kid. No, never.

I mean that's slightly I mean I you know

I'll love my future kid I'm sure I will

say to dads because they do worry about

and I understand why they worry about it

because they believe very much that

testosterone is the male hormone. It is

and it isn't you know women have

testosterone and it's it's one of the

sex hormones. It's not it really isn't

associated with things like stress. You

might find things like your

if you have a tendency to aggression,

you might find that drops a little bit

and as I say, you become more empathetic

and you become more emotionally

vulnerable, but it's really it's not

going to impact a huge amount

physiologically in you. So really don't

worry about it. And also you get the

most amazing rewarding bond with your

kid in return. So you drop the

testosterone, but you get this

astonishing bond. So it swings and

roundabouts. You said earlier that if

the father's not around, there's

implications for teenage mental health.

Yes. So because fathers underpin

resilience through starting with rough

and tumble play but carrying on through

that child's life and doing stimulatory

activities with that kid. They're the

ones that underpin mental resilience.

And obviously mental resilience is

particularly key for mental health also

because they underpin scaffolding the

child's ability to operate in the social

world. A lot of the disorders we see in

teenage um young people are associated

with social situations. So social

anxiety, eating disorders, self harm,

depression, loneliness, they tend to all

exist within the social sphere. And

because of that, that's why it's

actually the relationship you have with

your dad, particularly the attachment

relationship you have. So if it's a nice

secure attachment relationship, you are

much less likely to suffer from those

disorders and also particularly you know

how much time your dad spends with you

and inputs into you is important. So

kids are really interesting. They

measure their importance to their

parents in different ways. If you say to

them, "How do you know you're important

to your mom?" They'll say, "Well, my mom

does stuff for me. She makes sure I've

got my favorite cereal. She makes sure

that I get picked up from school and I

can have my playdates and she, you know,

makes sure my sports kit is washed." And

I mean, it's all terribly gender

specific. I do apologize, but this is

this is the data. If you say to the kid,

"How do you know you're important to

your dad? He spends time with me." And

we think it's probably cultural because

in our culture, dads are still more

likely to be out at work. So, the

precious thing you you have as a man is

your time. And if I give my time to you

as a child, particularly if I do

something you're interested in and I

accept you as an individual and say,

"Yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what

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We talked at the top of this

conversation about how gender roles have

shifted and how more women are college

educated and more women are in work and

they're climbing the economic ladder.

This also means that mothers are more

likely to be around less in such a world

especially when we consider the way that

the offices have been designed and the

working week has been designed. Have you

thought much about the implications of

an absent mother? Because we talked a

lot about the absent father. Yeah. But

an absent mother or a mother who puts

their child into into daycare or is

working five five days a week. I must

admit I haven't because I I don't study

mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of

work done on uh and I'm kind of filling

the gaps in terms of fathers to be

absolutely honest. The roles of a mom

and a dad in a heterosexual relationship

have evolved to kind of complement each

other. So they don't mirror each other.

They don't do the same thing. Um they

complement each other. So what happens

when we take one of those away for that

child? There are two things to say to

that. First of all, in most children's

lives, we talk about single parent

families and what we're talking about is

a single parent raising that child. But

actually, if we look outside that that

particular diad, that particular couple,

and we look at who else is inputting

into that child's life. So quite often,

I study it as obviously in relation to

absent fathers, what we tend to find is

that child has other people in their

life who are men who input, even if the

mom hasn't recognized it. One of the

most powerful studies I read wasn't

saying to a mom, "Where are the father

figures in your child's life?" It was

saying to the kid, "Who are the

important men in your life?" And the kid

would go, "Oh, my football coach or my

math teacher or my mate John's dad or

they often recognize father figures.

They don't call them that, but they

recognize men in their lives who they