I did everything that voice told me to

do that night had that voice have told

me to jump off Thames Bridge I would

have done it please welcome David

it's U.S drama home

the most influential voices on race and

mental health

I remember reading about a moment when

you come home you find your father's

typewriter with one word written on the

typewriter which is an illness and I

didn't quite know what it was but I knew

something was off I haven't seen dad for

a while and then one morning I got up

and my mom said don't go into the

kitchen and go straight to school out

the front door for that night that's

when my mom told me that that'd be

David Harewood was the first black actor

to play this part the hostility that I

was met with as a young black actor was

ferocious newspapers reviews just

dismissing me he looks more like Mike

Tyson than Romeo what's he doing on the

stage so I really did feel like I was an

anomaly the whole thing the stress the

smoke the overthinking just ended up

making me spiral that's what led to me

just falling into psychosis I was lying

in bed and I just heard this voice in my

head he said he was Martin Luther King

even though I'm speaking to you from

Beyond the Grave I need you to close the

gap between good and evil so you're

gonna sacrifice yourself tonight and

you're going to be an angel and that was

the night I was eventually sectioned I

just remember lots of flashing lights

and then being in the back of a police

wagon if that would have continued I'm

not even sure I would have been here

today

before this episode begins I just want

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keep this yourself

[Music]

foreign

[Music]

what do I have to understand about your

very earliest years to understand

the man you are this perspective you

have and the work you do today what is

the most important context

wow that's an interesting question what

do I need to what do you need to know

about me then

um that I was probably naive

open innocent uh and

probably more

um

probably more conflicted than I thought

I was

I I was a vessel and into that vessel

was just been poured so much

I'll say false information wrong

information

that um

at some point it had to

smash

break

I grew up at a time when there weren't

many black people on television and

there weren't many

black images

that on television or anywhere

and I think

I think that is I think that seriously

put me at a disadvantage but I I grew up

with a false sense of myself and that

that

false

false picture

uh has only recently emerged does that

make sense

not entirely unless I get further

context what was the picture of yourself

you grew up with

I would say you know

I just think I was just way too naive

and way too

way too

that's hard that's a really interesting

question I had really thought about that

but I think

it's only it's only in recently recent

years and having asked myself

some of the questions that I've been

asking myself over these last couple of

years and I've really started to get a

real grip of

the person that I am

so who did you think you are when you

when you were younger what did you think

of the world in yourself when you're

younger that was so naive and

ill-informed

um

I think I was

I didn't really think it was important

I don't think my color was important

and that's why I say I was naive I

didn't think my color was that important

I had no concept of myself

as a sort of

young black man

and that's why I say I grew up at a time

and there weren't any images of myself

so I couldn't really

structure my identity

[Music]

around a sort of solid identity and even

my you know my mother was always sort of

trying to steer me into a more

Afrocentric mindset

now I got back to Birmingham where I

where I'm from and I look at how many of

us are in interracial relationships of

that generation we were constantly told

to assimilate it was all about

assimilating assimilate you're not even

my you know I I heard the one I heard

the phrase one time you're not black

you're normal

which is so bizarre

so that your identity as a black person

was sort of ironed out you you just you

just

you're British you're English and

and

so when I came out of drama school I

think and the world said to me

you're black

it was a real sort of wake-up call for

me

and

seriously contributed to

what happened two years after I left

going back to your your mother and your

father how was their relationship and

your early experience with them shaped

the man that you are today

who are they as people

wonderful people in a very very

um my mother was extremely strong

and uh

my dad was a kind of a quiet silent type

really

uh very proud

um

didn't really speak much

didn't really

um

it wasn't wasn't particularly involved

in our education wasn't particularly

involved in shaping

who we were you know he

was very much hands off

you know it was a long distance large

driver so he was away a lot

and when he came back he would sort of

sit and what's the telly

and in peace and just you know

I often tried to talk to him when I was

a kid but he he was a very difficult man

to sort of

open up

um whereas my mother was my mother was

always sort of talking and

and sort of cajoling and very welcoming

of her friends and

she was just a really wonderful

character and still is very very funny

but you know she tells me now stories

that she used to you know some of the

fights that she had some of the battles

that she had

when I was writing my book

you know as I said we were the only

black family on that street and

she was constantly in conflict with

with

neighbors with

um racists

and she didn't back down she was very

very sharp and fearless

sounds like my mother Fearless

your father

um you write a lot about how hard

working he was

um the the lack of affection you've

described there the lack of openness

um

as you look back now was there a is

there was that was there a cost to that

to him and to

the family to you

I think so I think so I think I think

the fact that he didn't that's difficult

because it feels as like I'm criticizing

him

and I don't really want to do that but

I think it was a loving home

there was a lot of laughter in the house

but that's you know he he loved

you know all the British sitcoms and of

the time and

one of my favorite sounds was the sound

of him laughing I loved

hearing him laugh hear my mum laughed it

was the house seemed full of laughter

when I was growing up so there was a lot

of

you know there was a lot of humor in the

house but there wasn't necessarily a lot

of tenderness

and you know I I kissed my kids every

morning when they go to school it's just

that why but I

I don't know why that's important to me

maybe it's just become habit but I want

them to know how much I love them and I

want them to know

um how much respect I have for them and

how much how proud I am it's important

for me to do that and maybe it's because

my dad didn't do that

not not because

not because he he um

purposely didn't do it I just think just

don't think he thought it was that

important maybe

do you think he knew how to do that I

don't know if he did

I don't know if he did and um

but I think that's kind of true of a lot

of men of that generation

showing emotion wasn't very easy for

them

and also I think

it's really interesting a friend of mine

tells me this story of

it's very particular to the 60s and 70s

which is why I'm you know I was a

director and and

I'm very I'm fascinated by this period

of

late 50s 60s 70s England

because I don't think people understand

the level of racism

that was present in this country and

he's got goosebumps then because they

don't understand it and the idea of

being othered

that you would leave your house and

literally take your life into your hands

I mean I remember

randomly getting off a bus

and instantly being chased by a group of

skinheads and you would just

automatically find yourself runny

now

to to be to to have come here

from the Caribbean with ideas of streets

are paved with gold England being the

mother country

to have come here with that idea and to

be met with that amount of hostility

to be met with

with

that amount of abuse that amount of

rejection

I think it's seriously damaged

not just my father but many people who

came here in that generation that

Windows generation because it's

fascinating to me how many

Caribbean parents

do not want to talk about that period

just do not want to go there

because I think it was horrific

and I think it damaged him

I haven't really thought about that

before well I you know really considered

it before but I do think

that was a tough period for a lot of a

lot of us and whereas in America you

know movies have been made plays have

been written about that

generation about that um period we've

not really looked at it

I have to be completely honest I you

know I grew up in 90 I was born in 1992

came to the UK when I was two years old

from Botswana

um

I I always saw my mum have this I'll

describe it as this like

competitive uh

I'd say it's slightly competitive

attitude towards people and this like

General belief that other people were

racist and I never understood it I never

understood I never fully understood it I

just thought she she viewed the world as

big being racist and as I've done this

podcast and specifically spoken to

people from

the 50s 60s 70s 80s

and and early 90s

my mind has been blown because I don't

get I didn't get it of course you know

and it's interesting as I listened to

the wonderful Chris yeah and the world

that he was talking about I know that

I've I I remember it

you know growing up in those in in I was

born just after Chris

and five years after Chris but those

which is why he's such a legend for me

why him still Regis they are legends

because as kids I watch them playing

football knowing full well

that 50 of that the crowd were giving

him so much abuse

regularly

and yet he was able to play football

smile score goals play aggressively I

was in all of those guys because I just

thought

I would be scared

as a kid I was scared and that's one of

the things I've touched upon in my book

is is owning up to that idea that

I was terrified growing up in those days

because you just never knew

where a brick would come from where

where you know your a car would a car

would suddenly you'd be walking down the

street whistling yourself having a great

day next thing you know [ __ ]

[Music]

just monkey noises would just come from

nowhere

and

you would just tighten tense up so I

grew up in that environment and that's

why I'm I'm well aware of it which is

probably it goes back to that your first

question about

what you need to know about me

that's the environment I grew up in so I

it was trying to form a sense of myself

it's constantly being

sort of

it's growing up at a period where you're

othered

where you're in fear

and not understanding

Who You Are

was destabilizing I think and I'm in a

sense lucky that my house fell down when

it did and I was able to

put it back together again

where a brick would come from

you talk about a story being I think

five years old where brick comes through

the window of your family home

well

[Music]

I wrote about it in the book and how how

you know exactly mornings was always

cartoon morning you know Saturday

morning cartoons back in the day again

you're too young tonight

um but it was always you know Tom and

Jerry and

Pepe Le Pew and I love Tom and Jerry it

was great it was just they were just on

constantly so you would sort of

you know you'd sort of run down and and

watch Telly and and my my mum's my mum

was famous for her breakfasts

English breakfast

bacon eggs just chips Paula English

which we used to love and I remember my

mum calling us down

for breakfast and running down the

stairs and then hearing this smash

and we ran into the lounge

and there was an English breakfast

in glass

because a brick had come through the

window

and just

there was glass all over our big kitchen

table

and we just all sort of stood there in

shock

and Mom said go back to bed

drapes back up the road back up to back

up to bed

but that was a sort of you don't know

where it came from

in the where it came from but we were

targets

your mum's reaction

there when I read about this seemed

uncomfortably calm

well what are you gonna do you know and

she wasn't always calm and there was

times when she

she did you know grab people by the

colors and have people up there have

people up the wall she's fearless and uh

you know don't you ever call my son

that's like get that name again and she

was you know she was

Fearless but at the same time

you're powerless in that

in that

setting

because you don't know who threw that

brick

and

um you're almost you know I think back

to it now and think

you know she she used to sort of walk me

to school

and be waiting at the school gate to

walk me home

and for me that was it was great to see

my mom's face at the end of school

um

but I realized later maybe why she did

that because when you did go home on

your own years later it was a bit of a

minefield

you had to be careful

you were a target people don't

understand that especially people

especially people that haven't

experienced race racist debut the idea

of leaving the school Gates and the the

journey home being anxious

and looking over your shoulder anxious

there's a good word that's a good word

yeah which I you know we I didn't

realize at the time but I think it was a

huge amount of anxiety and then the

thing that the amazing thing about it is

you might go a week without it you might

go two weeks without it you might go

three weeks with it and then you and you

relax yeah sure and then you're normal

and then Bang casual Wednesday afternoon

middle of the day [ __ ]

and suddenly you're right back to being

scared

and uh

I I don't really think

my you know I I I I I think my whole

sense of self

because you know you do your best to

sort of

you do your best to normalize

that stuff and think I'm not gonna let

it affect me and I always had this and

then my mother's

words ringing my head don't let it

affect you hold your head up be strong

so you keep thinking no no I'm gonna

I'm not gonna let this affect me is that

good advice

well you know I think yes

yes but um

it doesn't always work

it doesn't always work and the the the

you know it crystallized for me when

rather foolishly

I went I was a leader I don't know why I

was a lead United fan

and and

um

always used to watch watching Leeds

United they were the champions back then

and they came to Birmingham one year to

to to to play Birmingham city and like a

jackass

I thought I'm gonna go and sit in the

Leeds end

and back in the day back in the day you

could um at half time you could

literally walk into the ground

so I thought you know

I think I was about 12 maybe about 9 10

or something like that

and I at half time I thought I'm gonna

sit with the lease fans

the idea of it now but I walked into the

leads and at first it was just a couple

of monkey noises

and then it became like a chorus of

monkey noises

and then he became a chorus of go [ __ ]

and then it seemed like

thousands of people

was screaming abuse at me and I heard

these words in my my mother's words hold

your head up don't be scared

so I thought I'm gonna go and take my

seat

and I kept walking down the touchline

but it got so loud

that in the end I thought I don't want

to sit with these people

so I turned around and walked away and

they cheat I remember them cheering

but I remember I was really shaken

and I remember that I remember to this

day this groundsman

well Ward you know to start member of

Staff as I walked out the ground he shot

you're like you're right kid

and I just went I was nodded and just

walked home

but I was really shaken by it

because I'd done exactly what my mother

told me to

but it didn't work

in in your early teens after that your

father's mental health began to

deteriorate

what were the were there any events that

led up to that I I remember reading

about a moment where you come home the

lights are on and there's you find your

father's typewriter with one word

written on the typewriter yeah you just

said illness

uh my dad was a prolific

sort of organizer

and uh

he started this this Darts League and

I was always on the typewriter writing

out the results and writing out that

who's played who and who had won and who

was going through to the next round and

who needed the trophy and who was gonna

where they were gonna play and what

times they played and he just he loved

the darts

but he just took too much on

and

um

he was constantly sort of working at

this organizing this whole thing and

organizing the trophies at the end of

the season organizing the meeting

organizing that he was just always I

think he was just doing it all on his

own

and um

I I just think he just took

on too much

and um

I didn't I didn't necessarily I didn't

necessarily

see it coming because I was quite Young

but um

it happened very very quickly

and

I always used to hear my dad go to work

in the mornings which is he was Keys

jingle jangle down the stairs

that was sort of my

alarm

to get up for school was my dad hearing

my dad come downstairs and think all

right I've got to get up in a minute

and for a couple of days I didn't hear

it

and then we kept hearing arguments in my

in the in my mum and Dad's bedroom

and I thought this is something's not

right

I'm saying that for a while

I've heard the jingle jangle down the

stairs something's off I didn't quite

know what it was but I knew something

was off and then one morning I got up

and my mom said

don't go into the kitchen

get changes up in the bedroom and go

straight to school at the front door

and um I did

and then that night

that's when my mom told me that that had

been sectioned so it happened it

happened really

quickly and they sort of kept me away

from it but unbeknownst to me my

brothers were

holding my dad down in the kitchen

because he would he he sort of lost it

how do they explain being sectioned to

you when you're in your early teens

because I you know I

I would have no idea what that meant in

my early teens

they didn't really and it's

it was you know Dad's not well

father's not well he's been taken to

hospital

and

you know there's always that gig when

there was that all there's always that

sort of

that uh Gadget school that you know the

men in the white coats will take you

away you know you'll create that's you

know you're crazy or are you gonna be

you're going to be taken away

and

that's what happened

my dad was taken away

um I didn't see it but I I knew he was

I knew that he'd been

unknown now obviously I'm having my

recent years I know that that's what had

happened to him he'd been sectioned

and when I was sectioned

um

I I suddenly realized

that

I suddenly read especially when I was

writing the book I thought that's what

has happened to him and and that now

it's only once I'd written my book and

really understood what that was like

having your Liberty taken away from you

because I think that in prison is about

the only being locked up in prison about

the only times when your Liberty is

taken away from you

and

it was only then I started asking myself

sort of started looking at my Dad's life

in sort of retrospect and thinking

because he hated it my dad hated it

and was never the same again when he

when he was released he was never the

same again and

I don't

think

I think he had a really bad time in

there

a really really difficult

and bad time which I don't think he ever

forgave my mother for

understanding what you understand now

about the nature of mental health and

what causes it and your own experiences

with mental health

when you look at why how your father

became to be sectioned

have you got any suspicions about why

that happened beyond that he took on too

much at the darts

I do think that there was a lot of

resentment and anger built up in him

and you've got to wonder

why and this is I only found this out

again once I started writing my book and

started looking at Mental Health

and the numbers of black black people

are over represented in the mental

health system in this country

and what I realized is that

it was Jamaican

psychologist who

who actually performed this um study and

he realized that black people

there's way less Mental Health

in Africa amongst black black

communities there is mental health

problems but way less psychosis and

but there's more in when they are

transmitted to a western culture so

there's more Mental Health

episodes of mental health in England

amongst the black community and in

America amongst the black community and

I think there's something about

I call it in my and this is one of the

things that my therapist talks about

when you're in a white space

and that's not a derogatory term but

England is essentially a

what space

and I'm sure you've been

in rooms where you're the only person

color

the higher ladder when they call it tall

poppy syndrome where the higher up the

ladder you get the less yeah on your own

people you see and

I think you know my thing I think

I think my dad had found it very

difficult coming from

the Caribbean

and coming to England

and

dealing with a completely different

mindset

I think he'd found that

difficult

and

um

resentment had built up

and I I think I was going to say a point

earlier on that illustrates this but a

friend of mine used to told me that

his dad used to work on an assembly line

and in the days of in the 70s when Jim

Davidson was

doing his chalky routine

that and he was the only black person on

the assembly line every Monday morning

after new faces or whatever it was that

Jim was on the comedians or everything

was doing his chalky thing every Monday

morning he would be chalky

and his dad would laugh and take it and

and then you know throughout the week

they'd be calling him chalky any big

daily development name chalky chalky

he's chalky his dad would laugh

and then on Friday night his dad would

get drunk and beat the [ __ ] out of him

and his mother

and I think that was just a buildup of

resentment

of having to live in this place where

yeah everyone's calling me this name

everyone thinks it's funny

and I'm laughing but there's a buildup

of resentment that he then takes out on

his family

now I'm not saying my I'm not saying my

dad

had that level of resentment but I think

it was just something about being here

that

he started to find difficult to live

with cope with mentally

when I read through

your book and also a lot of the stories

you've told me today I mean I remember

one particular story where you gotta you

got a girlfriend in school and then you

come into school the next day her father

has said that she can't be with you

because you're black this constant

constant rejection social rejection you

used that word earlier on the word

rejection and it feels so apt because

that's really what's I think in a

psychological psychological level going

on even going to the football and then

being rejected socially from that crowd

and it's constant throughout your story

you know I've read these studies about

labeling Theory where when the world

tells when you tell somebody they are

something in these studies they they

eventually become it so you know there's

the famous prison study where they said

you're the guards who are the prisoners

they had to stop the study because the

guards were so harsh on the prisoners

and labeling 3 says exactly that your

teacher says you're a d and you're going

to be a failure the chances are that'll

actually lower your performance your

self-belief how do you stop that

happening when Society has rejected you

for years and years and years growing up

the most formative time

I think you know I think I was lucky

because I I do think that uh

I lived amongst a lot of people who uh

you know who didn't Define you that way

so I think that was I was very very

lucky for that

but

I think

I think that person had to I think that

house had to come down

which is why I think my breakdown was

all about the more I learned about it

the more I

realize that that image of that young

boy

a desire to start again I had to rebuild

my image of self

and

um

that's what I've sort of it's

interesting because I even though it

happened 30 years ago I'm only now just

dealing with it because I only found the

records I only did that documentary I

only all this is recent and I think if

I'd talk to you last year

I'd probably be in tears by now because

so much of this is recent for me I'm

having to deal with a lot of it I just

I've spent the last 30 years in this

sort of cocoon not really

dealing with a lot of this stuff

and it's only since reading my medical

records and doing that documentary and

uncovering all that trauma as I say the

first thing I read when I opened my

medical records from 30 years ago

which were the medical records that the

BBC found in the bowels of the

Whittington psychiatric hospital

I had no idea they were going to give

them to me no idea I had no idea they

even found them the first thing I read

was patient believes

he has merged hearts with a young black

boy

and I just thought what is that

what is and I just looked through the

medical records and it's all to do with

my race and my identity

all of it I was just confused

I'd sort of Lost

touch with my

identity going off to drama school and

playing Romeo and Pushkin and doing all

these doing Molly air and Dostoevsky

doing all these European romantic you

know playwrights and Shakespeare and all

these different characters and thinking

my character my color doesn't matter I

can do all these wonderful things and

then I came out of drama school and

every newspaper article

was all about my color

every job I went through was all about

my color

I could go for these jobs and not these

jobs

and I it just

it was like it it was like I hadn't

was like I hadn't um

dealt with it

and dealt with my core identity

as a young black man

and

it all started to just

I started overthink it

what was your core identity that you

hadn't dealt with as a black man

I think just understanding myself as you

what your first question was

understanding myself in the world and

knowing

having confidence in myself there's too

many questions about my identity I think

one of the things I

did when I

saw a therapist after my documentary

was I sought out

I've had therapy many times in my life

but I sought out a black therapist

a black male therapist

and that has been really strikingly

revealing

to me

because some of the questions I had he

would kind of say well what do you think

why do you think like that and he would

question why I think like that

and

I found it remarkable how

he was able to make me understand that a

lot of things that I most a lot of my

fears a lot of my insecurities

only natural

uh

maybe potentially because I have maybe

grown up

predominantly in the white environment

and maybe I didn't

maybe I wasn't comfortable with myself

I'm much more comfortable with myself

now

what were those fears and insecurities

foreign

black man

you know

great at dancing great at sex great

chatting women upgraded it's great at

that

and

I felt maybe that I didn't always live

up to that

and if you have that

idea that

you can only be one way as a black man

but the world is telling you that you

could only be this way

then you sort of don't feel like you

measure up

and

actually I've learned yeah you can be

vulnerable

that's okay

you can be sensitive that's okay you

um it's okay to be

not be

you know

darkest McFly you know who just beats

down all the girls dances fantastically

does you know he's the Alpha Black

it's okay not to be the alpha black guy

it's okay

and uh that's taken me

a while to sort of understand about

myself

I think Jay-Z it's interesting I think

there's a thing about Jay-Z talks about

the gold silver bronze

the gold I think it's a book called How

to be black it's a very very funny book

we talked about the gold silver bronze

um black man you know the gold born in

the ghetto black wife black friends you

know

silver ball in the ghetto

black wife went to University bronze

you know and you sort of you sort of get

less and less you're almost like you get

less it must be copper or something yeah

and and then you see but then you see

the effects of that in schools where you

go where you have teachers will tell me

that you know you get a really

intelligent black kid but just to fit in

with his peer groups he won't work as

hard because he fears the more

intelligent he is the less black he is

the brighter he is the less black he's

seen the more and I hate that isn't that

funny being rejected by the White

Community but also the black community

well that's exactly what I had so you

know when I came out of Radha so I had I

had tough I had this sort of when I was

started being an actor you know

blackmens I'm like you're gonna be a

what

that's too white

you're too white man and then I went to

Radha and kind of did all these

Shakespeare all these plays and I came

out speaking like this and everybody

went he's way too white

and so you're getting rejected by the

press and critics because you're black

and then you were also being rejected by

the black community because they you

don't look or see them sound like

you know man from the ends you don't

sound like you don't talk like that

so I really did feel like I was

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at age 23 I think it's age 23 you

um that's that's around the time you

were sectioned yeah this is a very

strange way of asking the question but

in hindsight knowing now what you know

about why you were sectioned what was

going on in your life your mind your

environment the Press professionally

personally

what would you have had to change a void

do differently

before then

to have avoided that happening

that's a million dollar question

this really is a million dollar question

and I'm not sure there was any

anything I could have done

I think that

I think it had to come down

so I I'm I'm a great believer that

in trauma there's a lesson

that

there was something in that for me of

value

I don't think any I don't think

I mean I was very lucky that I came out

of it but I do believe and as I have got

older in my life

and having written the book and having

had so many people

tell me since writing that book

has so many people say thank you

I'm not crazy thank you he really you

really articulated everything that goes

on in my some of the frustrations that

comments I've only given voice to a

thing to things that a lot of people

experience just I took it to an extreme

I think

and I think it's

probably uh

as an artist as an actor has benefited

some of my work

it's enabled me to take things perhaps a

step further than maybe what some people

can take things I think it's given me a

perspective

I think there's something I think there

was something of value for oh in it for

me

I don't

I think it had to happen I don't think I

could have done anything to have stopped

it

which is

both um scary and um

worrying

what do you remember about that time

because it seems to be quite a blur when

you recount the events you it's almost

like you have these abstract memories of

just different moments well it's

interesting because I do believe I I

started this process thinking

that it was going to be fun

because it's like manic you know manic

depression it is often psychosis

like like it's often preceded with a

Mania

heightened

Adrenaline Rush dopamine the dopamine

levels in your brain are heightened and

it's quite exciting

I'm not getting sleep

it's often drug induced and you are

really sort of

operating at this quite high level

and I

I remember doing some pretty

extraordinary things I remember brief

moments of real sort of

mental acuity and

dare I say there was almost moments of

fun

but it's usually preceded by a crash

so I sort of went into this thinking I'm

gonna I'm gonna remember all our fun

things I did

some of the extraordinary things I did

and there were some really

Wild

things I was experimenting with

a sense of reality what was real and

what wasn't real

thinking I could do anything and

it was uh

bizarrely

exciting

give me an example of something that you

recount that is well it's interesting

because my

one of the Consultants that was in the

documentary

tells me that um

because I thought she asked me for an

example and I

I said I was walking walking down the

street one one morning

I hadn't slept all night

and uh

there was a guy across the road and he

had this huge Doberman

huge kind of massive muscular and I'm

normally quite afraid of dogs

and I just walked up to this I walked up

to this guy said what's that dog's name

and he

jab or something and I looked at this

dog and I screamed the dog's name and

looks at this dog quite aggressively and

right in its face and the dog just

literally

literally lay on the floor and started

whelping

whelping on its back just freaked out

and the consultant said to me that often

dogs can pick up

um

some some

uh Energies

Disturbed images

and I'd obviously really this guy was

really freaked out he said the dog was

literally whelping and moaning on the

floor and I just fixed this dog with no

fear and screened its name right in its

face just freaked the dog out

at night you were sectioned I read I

read that you were you hailed a taxi and

it was ultimately the exchange of the

taxi driver I mean this was an

extraordinary I mean that was an

extraordinary and again

it was the voice of Martin Luther King

that was in my head

you hear voices and when you uh

one of the aspects of

psychosis which is what I suffered from

you can hear voices he'd have Illusions

illusions

delusions

that seem incredibly real to you

and um

I was lying in bed

and I just heard this voice in my head

wake up

in bed looking around the room thinking

where's that come from

and this voice was in my head

it sounds totally bizarre but

his voice was in my head

and he went on to say look I don't want

to tell you who I am right now because

you're going to be really scared

but you have to go to Camden

you have to walk into this store don't

be surprised if it's open it's three

o'clock in the morning don't be

surprised to open whatever you do do not

turn around and it was all these things

I had to do

whatever you do don't do this whatever

you do don't do that but then go to go

into this store walk to the back of the

store there's going to be one suit

hanging up on a rack in the back at the

back of the store you need to put this

suit on and when you turn around don't

be surprised to find out that it's two

o'clock in the afternoon I said I'm

gonna I'm going to close the space time

continuum and we are going to close the

gap between good and evil this whole

thing

and it was it ended up being Martin

Luther King he said he was Martin Luther

King

and he said when you when you

because I played mine as a king as a kid

and it was my first

the first acting thing that I'd ever

done

he said when you played me as a child I

entered your heart

and when I was he said even though I'm

speaking to you from Beyond the Grave

I need you and two or three other people

in in the world to

activate something

and close the the the gap between good

and evil and he said so you're going to

sacrifice yourself tonight and you're

going to be an angel

and this voice was

swear to you

was like

real in my head

and I'm sobbing in my bedroom listening

to this voice so tonight's the night and

that was the night I was eventually

sectioned but I got up

got my clothes on and walked all the way

to Camden

obviously the shop was closed

it's 10 o'clock in the morning you know

I'm out of my nuts so um

and I was exhausted and I thought I've

got to go home and flagged a cab down

and I didn't have any money

and uh I don't remember I just I just

remember this driver looking around and

then the driver pulling over and then

um lots of flashing lights obviously the

police

and then being in the back of a police

wagon

and then

sitting in a cell and all this was just

I'm in and out of

what seemed like a dream for me I didn't

I I was in and out of I remember being

in this cell and then going to

magistrates court in the morning

and not remembering when they didn't

remember my name

at all didn't know who I was

couldn't remember who I was

and um

the duty solicitor sort of talking about

my mom and then said my dad's name is

Romeo and I went Romeo

hang on a minute I've played Romeo

yeah I played Romeo played running you

David David

that's I used my I used my sort of

career to get back to who I was

then left went to court

and I had no idea what was happening in

this court I mean I was the judge was

speaking at me and I was just

a mess

and I walked out of court and again

lucky but some woman who'd been in the

court

walked out and said

to me are you okay and I said I don't

think so

I don't know I don't know who I am and

she gets she said where do you live and

I said I can't remember she said what's

your nearest Tube Station

and I said yeah hybridizlington and she

flagged the cab down gave the driver 10

pounds said take him to hybrid Islington

and I got out of Hope in Islington

walked home and my friends were

waiting for me because I've been looking

for me all night couldn't find me

and that's the night that's the day that

they

knew something was even though they'd

been sitting with me

and visiting me for the last couple of

weeks because they knew something was

off

they knew it wasn't well

and that's the weird thing about

mental health or particularly psychosis

you see somebody

acting very strangely something you love

it could be your son your husband your

mom your they just suddenly start acting

out of character

becoming obsessed with something or

it's like they just suddenly change and

you know you know something's wrong

but you sort of Hope desperately hoping

that they sort of come back

and that's sometimes you know they don't

and you have to make that call

to have them sectioned and luckily for

me

my friends had been there because if

they weren't there I think I would have

been in real trouble

oh my God I would have been in real

trouble

if that would have continued

I'm not even sure I would have been

here today

so I was very lucky

how long did that process last before

you were sectioned of the slope the sort

of gradual deterioration well I think it

was happening for a while because I I

remember working

and not feeling great

so I'd say at least two or three months

there was a slow progression

of

not sleeping

overthinking

trying to hide that

drinking

to sort of

self-medicate a new one wasn't well

but I thought I could handle it

I'm trying to understand how much of

that you believe is to a physiological

biological

situation or maybe predisposed by

biology versus circumstance experience

and

the things that you'd been through

I think and again I mean we didn't you

know speaking to my con the consultant

who

was working on my documentary It's a

combination of both things

your propensity your your

uh the chances of you having a breakdown

are sort of reliant on levels of stress

lack of sleep

what's called Aces which are these

fundamental like people who

experience trauma

in life I mean for me I think it was

my parents divorce

and not dealing with that

not dealing with that at the time so

much of it has just been squashed not

dealing with some of the trauma that was

in my life and I think a lot of it was

coming out

slowly coming out then in that one slow

progression of being deeply unhappy

why

why were you deeply unhappy I read that

and I thought what I as I say I came out

of drama school

and the hostility

that I was met with as a young black

actor

was ferocious newspapers newspapers

reviews just dismissing me completely

dismissing me and I sort of left John's

school with a bit of heat people are all

really excited to see what I was going

to do and

school was very very excited to you know

everybody was talking about this young

young kid coming out of drama school

it's going to be you know and I just got

slaughtered

slaughtered all about race all about

race

I played Sloan

in Entertaining Mr Sloan Mrs lonia who

is quite a devious bisexual character

murder he's actually also a murderer and

um

not only there was one review a black

reviewer who said who was outraged that

I'd taken the part because I was letting

the side down

and he said that people should go and

demonstrate their disapproval

of Mr harewood's choice of employment

and

I read it I was like wow

put that down and I noticed that night

people as Sloane has this really kind of

tough monologue

we talked about abusing somebody and

in the middle of this monologue I saw

people get up and walk out

and I noticed that they were black

and then the next night more black

people started walking out and it was

always in the middle of that monologue

black people would get up

and walk out

and it was really tough to deal with

it was really tough to try and they were

such

Chop Sing and

but as they walked out

and sort of it was really disturbing me

because I had to

get on with the play

and that was only the second act there

was another three so the whole way

through that play I Was sort of coping

with why did they walk out

get on with the play seems to be quite

an apt metaphor for that period of your

life

yeah and I wasn't really dealing with it

so dealing with the fundamentals so I

think

that's when the drinking started

to to be able to get through the play I

started drinking to be able to I started

self-medicating so I was drinking a lot

before during after the show smoking

after the show

and the whole thing the stress the smoke

the overthinking

lack of sleep lack of sleep

just ended up

making me spiral

how long from being section to getting

back to acting how long was that sort of

recovery process per se it was a lot

quicker than I realized actually which I

which surprised me I thought it was

going to be months but it was I was

sectioned for about five days initially

and then again in Birmingham

for another

five days

um

and then the recovery was just about

convincing my mother that I was okay

because she was she was convinced that

it was acting it was acting that sent me

crazy and then I was never going to act

again

and that I was never going to go back to

London again I was never going to be

allowed to act again

uh

so she kind of watched me like a hawk

for about a month

maybe a month six weeks

and eventually

uh she she allowed me to travel back

down to London and get on with my career

I sat here with uh Maisie Williams

um the young Game of Thrones actress and

she talked to me about how act acting

was a form of escapism in her life

because her home had such little joy

that acting became this place almost

this therapeutic place where she could I

guess in some respects abandon that

identity and I remember reading from

this like Swedish philosopher which I

wrote about my book Once Upon a Time who

said that when we um if we try and

abandon ourselves

um well ultimately just bear around he

wrote this 200 years ago so he was just

you know yeah if it's still true that's

right yeah that's why I really it always

stayed with me if we try and abandon

ourselves and we're successful we'll

despair at the fact that we've abandoned

ourselves and our identity if we try and

abandon ourselves and we're unsuccessful

we'll despair at being unsuccessful in

our in our attempts to become other than

we are and he concludes in his like big

philosopher piece that the only true way

to be happy is to accept that which you

who you are and to not abandon yourself

um he you know that's his conclusion

after this long study that he's done on

people

um it that kind of felt almost quite

true when I think about what acting is

in many respects but for Maisie it was

this this attempt to abandon the self

and actually to not confront the issues

and then she ultimately had to at some

point

confront those issues and what had gone

on in her family home what her father

had done to her but acting was her

Escape at 12 or 13.

is any of that reminiscent to or does

any of that ring true specifically this

idea of like the role acting played in

identity for you

acting is the only space I feel 100

confident in why

because everyone knows the lines

everyone knows where they're going to go

everyone knows the movement everyone

knows the play on stage I just feel it's

probably my what's where I'm at my

happiest

why

it's I can't explain it I just become

you become somebody else you know when

you're when you're

the true nature of a thing of art it's

like somebody who paints I think you

know they want to create something and

they're free to create like Van Gogh

could be taught that it could be

tortured but he can still produce an

amazing piece of art you said that I'm

not disappointing because I become

someone else so what does that say about

oneself if I'm myself I'm full of this

insecurities there's doubts there's

there's decisions to make there's about

which is what which is why life I think

is so

unique

I don't know what you're going to say

next none of us know that's what's so

beautiful about it and so fantastic

about it but on stage it's a controlled

environment so for those two hours

can be king Lear I can be a fellow and I

completely put myself into that and it's

that's I feel it's like I'm at I guess

you would I guess you could say I'm

football to say that

you know on the pitch

no problems George best on the pitch a

genius off it

an alcoholic

somebody who can't con somebody who

can't cope Maradona on the pitch a

genius off the pitch something else you

can't cope with

life life is

uncontrollable life is

full of contradictions full of

difference full of

failures and success it's just it's it's

uh

it's very difficult to distill

whereas on stage

I know you know I can play that

and I

can put myself into that and pour myself

into that character and I feel great

it's the most freeing place for me it's

the most

freeing thing I could it can I've ever

experienced and that's why I love it so

much that's What Maisie said

she said it was for her she said

actually it was the only place she

experienced Joy yeah I could not

completely completely understand that

but what that not to be repetitive but

what is that saying about the nature of

our our life in terms of why can't life

be joyous as equally joyous what would

we have to do to make our our acting

life when we're King well that's the

secret I guess and that's that's the

secret of sort of finding a place where

you can be and I'm sort of on the way

you know where you can experience joy

and I think that's that's a

it's a lifelong struggle but you have to

work at it 2019 you was the the first

time 2017-2019 was the first time she

really opened up about your experiences

in terms of to the Press I'd always I I

mean like that's that was the

shock of it is that I tweeted

2017 tweet randomly tweeted

as somebody who's had a breakdown just

want to say look have a great that was

meant World mental health day oh yeah

somebody's had a breakdown I just want

to say look after yourself today get

some help if you can

got on the plane flew to America got off

the plane 50 000 retweets

calls from ITV calls from the BBC course

from the guardian calls from the

Independent oh my God you had to break a

nice completely forgot I hadn't gone

public with it I've told everybody

it's been a bit of an anecdote for me a

bit of a late night drunken anecdote for

me that I'd had a breakdown and spent

time in a minute but it's only since

doing that and I've really looked at it

and really understood it that

moment of oversharing has led to all of

this has led to my first book it's going

to lead to my second book it's led to

this

Reckoning

which would not have happened had I not

have sent that tweet

2019 you um produced the documentary hmm

everybody talks about that documentary

really incredibly powerful but just

artistically brilliant in so many ways

but so many people talk about it you

know I even had members of my team put

in big brackets it is so good when they

were referring to a documentary they

don't usually do that it was really

profound and important in so many ways

how did that change your life

again because

um

and it's this is really hard but I'd I'd

seen that documentary

almost a thousand times because I

watched it every day a year before it

went out

the night it went out

I was absolutely terrified and I as soon

as I saw adverts for it I panicked

and I was you need to call the BBC and

said I don't want to go I I just take it

off take it off I was really scared and

and that that was really unusual with me

because I'd seen it and I I was happy

with it

but going public with it was a whole

nother thing and I was really scared

really anxious and the hot I think the

whole house picked up on it because my

kids went to bed early

my wife went to bed early

you know and she watches you know she

went and she was like she was afterwards

she said she was wearing the you know

the kids might get ribbed at school or

you know your dad's there is that

and I didn't even thought about that

I suddenly thought [ __ ]

you know

I'm letting people in here

and I was really scared

and I remember I that night I had a

therapy session online with my therapist

and when we finished it it was kind of

dark and I thought

well it's got half an hour left to go

I'm not even going to watch it I'm just

gonna go to bed

and I was just about to go to sleep

and see every single device in my house

was beat

everything was just buzzing and it was I

lost God and then the house house phone

went and I jumped out of bed to I didn't

want to wake the house and it was my mom

and first thing she said was brilliant

and that really calmed me down I went on

my watch when she said I've just watched

it she said it's brilliant well done son

huge side relief

and then started looking at all these

messages and emails and they were all

really emotional and like

and moving

and um

went to bed and

got up enrollment to take my dog for a

walk like I normally and I could not

walk 10 feet

without complete strangers

coming up to me in tears I swear to God

going I just want to say Mr Hayward

thank you and I'm normally when you're

an actor people leave you alone

you know what it's like when you're on

the telephone that's that God for telly

but suddenly it was Mr Harewood not the

guy from the Homeland or the guy from

Supergirl or the guy from it was Mr

Harewood excuse me I just want to say

thank you so much tears strolling down

their face my dad had a breakdown and we

never talked about it and just want to

say the fact that you we all suddenly

started talking about it and start

talking about Dad and

I'm blubbing there crying then I go

thank you very much walk up somebody

else excuse me Mr hair we just want to

say and I I suddenly realized how common

it is

and how everybody was touched by it

because you just don't talk about it

it's a shame

attached to to particularly psychosis

and particularly to being taken away

it's a shame attached to it for some

reason maybe because I'm an actor I have

no shame so me

a recognizable

successful actor

talking about it

allowed them to talk about it got a call

from mine saying

phone's ringing off the hook people are

talking about psychosis because they

didn't they didn't that now they

understand what happened to their son

now they understand what's happening to

their who's only just been sectioned

that morning and on this book tour I've

constantly

do signings

and um

nearly every single time I sign I go to

one of these book tours

there's somebody who comes up to buy the

book for it to get signed and they're

crying and they go I've just come out of

a mental institution I just want to say

seeing you

it gives me hope

that I can get better

or there's a mother who says my son's

just been crying her eyes out

my son's just been sectioned he was away

at drama he was away at school because

it happens normally when kids go to

university

or when they go away from home and they

might smoke they might drink they might

find themselves in a strange environment

that's when it happens

and uh

the amount of times I've had to kind of

get up and just hug the stranger and

just say they'll get better

I sometimes sit here with people and

there's a moment where they let the wall

down and the wall can be a number of

things sometimes it's sexuality

sometimes it's something that they've

been holding inside of them you know

they might have told friends but letting

the world in and then feeling that

feedback that that you know people did

weren't attacking them they didn't lose

their job and and that sometimes can be

quite a liberating thing from then on

once we've let the wall down whatever it

is and really let people in and see our

our deepest insecurities or our fears

life can feel different we can be more

open and honest and vulnerable and can't

say that happened because I then had

three years of dealing with it yes tell

me about that because I thought

oh okay I've let the world in and as you

say Where's that moment of

relief yeah and it was torture

because I couldn't cope

with all these people coming up and

saying thank you so much normally you've

got that shield and said you've got that

Shield as a recognizable face where

people don't bother you on the train

people don't bother you in the street

but they were and they were coming with

these really emotional stories

some people some people's parents died

being restrained now I I talk about

seven policemen jumping on me and giving

me what's called an emergency

tranquilization I'll talk about that in

my book

how I survive that I don't know because

countless people have died like that

black people

being restrained by police the amount of

Crim the criminalization of that

the criminalization particularly black

people in that period of illness of

psychosis is look at the people in

America you people shot

because they're acting strange they're

in they're in a moment of medical crisis

but they happen to be naked running down

the street screaming

you will get shot people don't

understand it people have been arrested

people have been one guy knew he was

having one guy I met knew he was having

a breakdown I went to the hospital

they refused to treat him went to

another hospital they refused to treat

him started banging on the door they

called the police he got arrested he got

into he got sent to prison and he was

only in prison that he got treated

so this whole book is has really opened

up the whole

how particularly people of color are

criminalized at a moment of crisis

by being arrested and then being treated

like for me it was only when I showed

the book to my consultant she said do

you realize you were given three times

the legal doses of tranquilizers

and I said why is that she said well it

was it's and then I again once the book

got out I had somebody

contact me saying this is standard

practice

because most people are afraid of big

black men

so most times a large black man is

sectioned you will get knocked the [ __ ]

out

for no medical reason other than we're

scared of this big guy let's just up the

dose here

and that's all it was

so it just all this stuff was coming out

all these stuff was coming at me

and I couldn't really

process it

and I remember going into my therapist

and just flying my eyes out because it's

too much it's too much I can't cope with

it

and funnily enough my medical records

that I find in the documentary

I hadn't opened those

notes for two years since I got them

since filming it

but before I wrote the book and I knew

where they were they were in my flat in

Vancouver and exactly where they were

and

once I decided to write the book

I remember flying back to shoots the

next season of Supergirl

and we flew into quarantine because it

was a couple years ago so you had 14

days on your own and the first thing I

did walk in the flat got my medical

records out and I read them cover to

cover

and that was really tough because you're

reading your Disturbed self everything

that I'd said done was was recorded

so I'm reading all the stuff I did and

flashes of moments that I thought [ __ ]

that's where that memory comes from

second Pace in the middle of the office

and

just the most weird stuff that I did and

said

is it scary to know that it's you're

capable of going getting to that place

yes no and and

you know again I think of myself

thinking about the acting side of it you

know I've always had this ability to

not method

but I really throw myself into a

character and I love that

and I think maybe there's part of me

that

having pushed myself having let myself

go not many people

go there

I literally went crazy

crossed the line into unacceptable

Behavior where your behavior is deemed

we have to

take you away

unsafe for yourself and for others

sectioned

I've crossed that line

so for me now I think

in acting anything up to that line is

fair game it's a fair game and I love it

and I that's why I would more will push

push myself and I look for characters

who are like that because who do push

uh

that's what I don't know that's what

makes acting so so great for me and so

exciting because I can behave like

something somebody else but even reading

about

even reading about psychosis is someone

that's never been through it

it makes me realize that it's completely

possible for me to find myself in that

situation absolutely anybody and that

and that's what because you know when I

grow up with mental health I thought

something happened to other people and

then you and then you get a flavor of it

right yourself and you go [ __ ] we can

all we all have uh mental health and and

reading the stories of psychosis and how