Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,

[music] where we revisit past episodes

for the most potent and actionable

science-based tools for mental health,

physical health, and performance.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. And now for

my discussion with Dr. Paul Ki. Paul,

thank you so much for being here today.

>> Oh, thank you so much for having me. We

could just start off very basic and just

get everyone oriented. How should we

define trauma?

>> I think we have to look at trauma as not

anything negative that happens to us,

right? But something that overwhelms our

coping skills and then leaves us

different as we move forward. So it

changes the way that our brains

function, right? And then that change is

evident in us as we move forward through

life. We can see it in mood, anxiety,

behavior, sleep, physical health. So we

so we can identify it and we can also

see it in brain changes. If trauma rises

to the level of changing the functioning

of our brains, then there's almost

always a reflex of guilt and shame

around the trauma that can lead us and

often leads us to bury it, right? To

avoid it, which is exactly the opposite

of what needs to be done. We need to

communicate and put words to what's gone

on inside of us. And and very often a

person knows, but they're not admitting

it to themselves because they're afraid

of it, right? They don't know what to

do. But if they start talking then

they'll they'll talk about the event or

the situation. It could be something

acute or it could be something chronic

that really has been harmful to them,

right? And then they feel different

afterwards. But that doesn't always

happen. Sometimes it's a process of

exploration, you know, through dialogue,

right? whether whether it's written or

whether it's spoken of of the person

sort of exploring the changes inside of

themselves maybe changes to their self-t

talk inside changes to their thoughts

about the world and whether they can

navigate safely and readily in it and

you know it anchors as I talk about this

the example I'll use at times is the

example of my own life where you know

when I was much younger in my early 20s

my younger brother took his life by

suicide and the you know the response of

guilt and shame and and hiding all of it

inside of me was was this is very

dramatic but but I wasn't acknowledging

it right because I didn't know what to

do about it and I felt guilty and I felt

responsible and I felt ashamed so there

was a an avoidance inside of me so so I

didn't see that the change was in me but

I was taking care of myself poorly like

there was enough going on that was

unhealthy that I couldn't avoid the

realization that like hey I'm different

now and in these ways that are automatic

you know my reflex to can I make my way

in the world can I have a good life can

I be happy my reflexes to that were all

different and they were coming through

the lens of heightened anxiety

heightened vigilance a sense of guilt a

sense of shame uh and a sense of

non-belonging in the world and and was

ultimately good and helpful people

around me um and my own realization that

hey things are not going well right that

led me to to then get some help and to

be able to talk about it and realize

like, oh my gosh, like I need to face

these things that are going on inside of

me.

>> Why do you think that when we experience

trauma, these things that we call guilt

and shame surface? Those emotions must

exist in us for some reason.

>> Um, but in this case, it seems like they

they don't serve us well. So why is it

that we seem to be reflexively wired to

feel guilty and feel ashamed when that's

the exact opposite of what we need to do

in the case of trauma? There's something

adaptive that has happened in us through

evolution that now becomes maladaptive

in in the way we live in the modern

world. Right? So if you think of through

most of human development, you know,

people weren't living that long, right?

And the idea was to survive and

reproduce. So, so traumatic things that

happened to us, it would make sense for

them to stay with us, right? So, you

know, if you ate a new food and got

really, really sick, it's like you

better remember that, right? You know,

if you see someone from the group of

people, you know, a couple miles away,

right? And one of those people attacks

you, right? It's like you better

remember that. So, so the traumatic

things that are sort of emlazed in our

brain are built to last, right? Things

that are positive will generate some

emotion inside of us, but things that

are profoundly negative are much more

likely to stay with us. And I think that

that was adaptive, right? When all of

that was about survival, right? And I

think the same thing is true with with

say shame. The lyic system, right, the

system often is called the emotion

system, right? In our in our brains has

actually of course varying function,

right? And one aspect is affect, right?

So affect is aroused in us. It's created

in us without our choice. Right? So if

if we're walking down the road and

someone jumps in front of us or pushes

us, right? Then there's a response of

fear, anger, right? Heart starts beating

faster, you know, more blood to the

muscles, you we're getting ready to to

fight, right? Or or run, right? And then

we become aware of it. So the aroused

affect in us is also about survival. And

it has a very deep impact upon us and

shame is an aroused a effect. So it can

be raised in us without our choice and

it's very powerful which if you think

about that is an extremely strong

deterrent. You know, imagine a a tribe

or a group of people, right, that are

sheltered together and you know, someone

eats half the food at night or

something, right? And like there's a

very negative response, right? And that

person feels shame because shame is so

powerful to to control behavior, right?

So the way that trauma can change our

brains and and stay with us in a way

that says be more vigilant, look at the

world in a different way, act more

defensively, right? and and how that

links to shame and to guilt. So then

guilt in invol guilt becomes what gets

called feeling technically where we

relate the aroused affect to ourselves

right. So, so shame, the aroused apect

and guilt, the next step, right? When we

when the shame gets related to self are

such profound behavioral interventions

and and deterrence that you can see, I

think how evolutionarily kind of all

makes sense. If we're fighting for

survival, you know, and we're an elder

statesman, if we make it to 20, this

makes sense. But it doesn't make sense

in a world where we live much longer,

right? We navigate in all sorts of

different ways. And there's so much

coming at us that can be traumatizing.

Our brains are built to change from

trauma, but not in the way we experience

trauma and not in the way that we live

life in terms of the nature of living

life and the duration of life in the

modern world where these traumas that

happen to us are often so bad for us

because they they change how our brain

is functioning and then our entire

orientation. So the world is different

and that could be for you know years and

years.

>> This idea that I've heard about before I

think it was a Freudian concept of a

repetition compulsion. My understanding

of this concept of the repetition

compulsion is that we all want to solve

our traumas and it allows us to put

ourselves into micro or um again macro

versions of that over and over again. We

get to run the experiment again and

again in an attempt to solve it. Right?

Why is it that somebody who is in an

abusive relationship goes on to have a

second and third or fourth verbally or

physically abusive relationship? We see

that over and over. It's not necessarily

in everyone, but boy, it is in a lot of

people who have suffered trauma. On the

surface of it, it's like it makes no

sense. But then if we think, well, how

does the brain how does our brains

actually function, right? We're sort of

trained, at least in Western society, I

think, to think of ourselves as logical

creatures, right? that like, oh, we're

logical and ultimately everything in us

can just boil down to logic, which is

completely not true. The limbic system,

right, the emotion system, so to speak,

inside of us always trumps logic, right?

If you think about does it ever make

sense to run into a burning building? I

mean, logic says no, right? But if

someone you love is in the burning

building, you people run right in,

right? Because the lyic system says yes.

So when logic and emotion come

head-to-head, emotion wins all the time.

And the lyic system does not care about

the clock or the calendar. So how I

would relate that to the repetition

compulsion is is when people are

repeating what they're trying to do is

to make things right, right? With the

idea that if we can repeat the situation

and make it right, it will fix

everything. Right? which makes perfect

sense if if we think well where is that

concept coming from right it's coming

from the emotional part of the brain

that wants relief from suffering of the

trauma and does not understand the clock

or the calendar so if I can solve

something now I will also solve

something in the past right which is why

I can't tell you how many times I've sat

with someone and say we're starting to

do therapy right and a person will say

my last seven relationships have and

abusive and I'll say back something

sometimes like well look if if you tell

me that you've had seven relationships

that have been abusive in different ways

I'll agree with you like I only say that

cuz that's never what someone says right

but I think what you're going to tell me

is you've kind of had the same

relationship seven times so think the

light bulb that goes off like I have not

had seven different abusive

relationships I have had one that I have

repeated seven times and now we start

getting to what's really going on or

what needs to happen. That person needs

to face what happened in that original

abusive relationship. And it always

comes down to the same sort of concepts

of of the person feeling terrified while

the abuse was going on, feeling guilty,

feeling ashamed, feeling like, oh, they

brought it on themselves. They deserve

it. They don't deserve anything better.

Right? Because the brain is trying to

make sense of it. Right? Or I I thought

I could make that okay, but I couldn't.

Right? And then there's more guilt and

more shame. And if that's stuck inside

of someone, like that's bundled up

inside of someone, you know, like a

medical abscess inside a person, you

know, a walled off infection inside the

body. This is the same concept in the

brain, then of course the lyic system is

going to want to fix that and and it

fixes it by trying to let's recreate

that situation and make it right this

time. I see that play out clinically

over and over again. And why do things

get better? Because we go to the trauma

and we unlock it. It's not hidden inside

where it can control things, right? We

bring it to the surface and then we we

can take away its power. The thought

about the thing, the event

>> or events plural evokes this arousal,

this internal state makes some people

feel sleepy and exhausted, other people

feel really anxious, other people feel

angry. I mean that arousal has all these

different dimensions. As you know, it's

clear we need to confront these things.

And so, how do we deal with arousal? How

does one take what they feel inside

about something shameful? What do you do

with it in a moment? And does that have

to be done in the presence of a skilled

trained therapist? How do we deal with

that internal arousal?

>> We so often try and change the trauma of

the past in order to control the future.

And what what that really adds up to is

the trauma of the past dominates our

present. And and then we're not really

living in the present, right? As we're

trying to control the future, we're not

going to do a great job of controlling

our future if we're not really living in

the present. And so the way to come at

that again in the moment, if we're

saying, okay, in the moment, if I need

to fall asleep, right, I might say,

okay, let me try and put that out of my

mind. Let me try and thought redirect.

So, so there's short-term strategies

that can let us be functional in the

context of these changes. But the answer

is to go look directly at that thing,

look at that trauma, explore that

trauma. And sure, that can be done with

a professional and sometimes that's what

makes sense. But not always, right?

Sometimes it can be done by talking to

another person, right? Writing it down,

right? Looking at what's going on inside

of me that my mind is so stuck to this.

Let's explore that. We're so afraid so

often of looking at the trauma that has

changed us that we'll look anywhere but

at that. What ends up happening is when

the person puts words to it, right? It

could be in writing, it could be talking

to a trusted other or with a therapist,

right? Things start to change. I mean,

just the fact that you can talk about

it, you can put words to it and other

people don't recoil. that you know that

example of of the person who says okay I

was abused by a coach when I was a child

and once they start talking about it

then they start talking about how you

know they were just innocent kids right

like they didn't know and like they

really wanted to be on the team or this

coach was treating them as special and

and now they can look at themselves from

the outside right they can look at

themselves like they would look at

someone else you think it's so easy for

us to see what's real and true if it's

someone else, right? If you ask someone,

what do you think of someone who's 10,

11 years old who's abused and

manipulated and abused by an adult, we

say, "Oh my goodness, I feel compassion

for that person," right? But if it's us,

right? Then, oh no, it's guilt and shame

and we have to hide it away. And when

the person starts looking at it, they

can sort of see it from the outside and

it starts to take the energy out of it.

All the guilt and shame inside the

person gets juxtaposed like what really

happened there? And then they say right

I was a terrified child right I didn't

understand at all and they can come to a

place of compassion and now we are

working against the guilt and shame and

if the person cries about it that's

great right I mean crying is one of the

best coping mechanisms we have it

doesn't hurt us and it lets us grieve

things you we can't grieve if there's

guilt and shame inside of us it just

blocks grief right we have to there has

to be a clean slate in a sense in order

to feel sadness and then You see that it

shifts from anxiety, anger and

frustration, usually directed towards

the self, guilt and shame towards uh

towards being able to process it and

being able to bring to bear some

compassion and being able to direct the

negative emotions so to speak where

they're warranted. And my goodness, the

changes. It's remarkable how just

getting it out there and having like one

hour of talking like that like like what

we're talking about now can can leave a

person feeling immensely better. How do

we do that in a way that isn't

retraumatizing oursel in a major way or

in a minor way?

>> It starts with real introspection. You

know, when things are bouncing around in

our minds, often it's very

non-productive, right? It's the same

thing over and over again. And that's

not helpful for us, right? So if we're

just thinking about it and we're

thinking in the same way we sort of in a

sense always think about it, then all

we're doing is reinforcing the trauma,

right? But if we can distance enough,

then we can think in ways that allow us

to have new thoughts, right, that that

we weren't having. It's not just

bouncing around in our minds. And if we

speak or write, there are even more

mechanisms that come online in our

brains, right? That that are then sort

of monitoring mechanisms. We think in a

different way if we're using words,

right? And we we are better able often

to bring in that observing ego like

what's going on inside of me. So, so it

can be very helpful to think. It can be

helpful to talk to someone to a trusted

other, you know, friend, family, clergy,

uh to write. I mean, these are things

that can be done without expending any

resources. And sometimes if the symptoms

are significant enough like we really do

need to talk to somebody professional

who can who can help us get to the root

of the trauma. But what are some of the

characteristics that one should look for

in looking for a therapist?

>> If you look at what are the top 10 uh

important factors to find in a therapist

just repeat rapport 10 times. It's

trust. It's a back and forth. It's it's

like yeah even though I'm doing I'm

doing something difficult. I'm doing it

with someone who's really helping me.

Someone who's in it with me, right?

someone who's really paying attention,

wants me to be better, that's

indispensable. I think that good

therapists are not pigeonholed by a

certain modality. They they may, you

know, come at the world largely through

a psychonamic or a CBT or a DBT lens.

There's lots of different, you know,

ways to do therapy, but when you really

talk to those people, really good,

experienced therapists, it's all coming

through the vehicle of the rapport, but

they're practically shifting to what the

person needs. If you have that, you've

got a winning combination.

>> So, people should perhaps try a few

therapists and maybe have a session or

two or three to see if they the rapport

feels like it's taking root.

>> Yeah. And I think that's why word of

mouth is important, right? If someone

you trust tells you, hey, this is a good

person, that says a lot, right? It

already makes the pretest probability

you is quite high. How does one gauge

how much therapy they they ought to be

um doing and uh should it always be on

the therapist to decide that?

>> Yes, I think a lot of times it would be

the therapist to say it like more work,

you know, more intensive work or can

make a a difference. But I think the

person also needs to, you know, take

ownership, right, of their own therapy

and if I don't feel helped enough, well,

I have to think about that, right? And

and talk to the therapist about that

because maybe maybe that therapist isn't

a match. People can get into a rhythm of

therapy where it's really not helping

them, right? But they either feel sort

of nihilistic about it, like I'm no

better and I'm going to therapy. Do we

really need to look at ourselves? And

this is where the insurance systems

often are very difficult because it's

hard sometimes for a person to say I

need more therapy because that may not

be possible. So there are sort of

negative factors in the world around us.

But ultimately I think the answer to the

question comes down to observing

ourselves and taking ownership of like

what's going on in us and how we're

feeling and and then feeling that that

um commitment to self or to self-care to

say I need to go change this.

>> Now I'd like to talk a little bit about

chemistry.

>> Yes. um drugs. How do you think about

prescription drugs in the context of

treating uh trauma and other and other

conditions? Right? I think that we tend

to overutilize medicines in this country

because we have a health care system

that that often that's so based on

throughput that we want to polish the

hood when there's a problem in the

engine, right? So, we overutilize

medicines often as an end point, right?

Oh, we're going to make that person's

depression better with an

anti-depressant. most of the time for

that person's depression to really get

better and stay better they need to

unravel what's driving the depression.

So the first kind of branch point can be

what is the diagnosis? What is the level

of severity? Right? And I think that

that's very very important. I mean the

vast majority of people who are helped

by anti-depressants, they're not they

don't have clinically severe depression,

right? Those medicines create more

distress tolerance in us. If you can

improve someone's distress tolerance and

you can use medicines that that take

away what clinically is rumination,

right? Not a not the standard meaning of

that word, but the clinical meaning of

it where there are distress centers in

our brain that are overactive and then

we get stuck in these maladaptive

negative pathways where we think about

something over and over and over again

with no real chance of solving it

because that's not what's going on

inside of us. So medicines can help that

but we have to have some flexibility

around their conception. and know the

modern medical system of like 15minute

visits you know to a psychiatrist that

are that are weeks apart I mean I don't

understand how that goes well we use I

think approximately five times as much

medicine I think across the board as say

the Dutch population they have a health

care system and a and a cultural system

that to the best of my understanding is

more rooted in taking responsibility for

oneself so if a person comes in and

cholesterol is high right the first

order of business is hey you take better

care care of yourself, right? Like this

person really needs to lose some weight,

exercise more, right? They they're not

just jumping to like let me give you a

medicine and and you know, and shift

shift you through the health care system

and out the other side of the door. So,

I think medicines get overused in large

part for systemic reasons. Um, and also

for some of these categorization

reasons. Oh, that person meets some

technical criteria for depression. We

got to give them this medicine instead

of really thinking, wait, what's going

on in this person? And I see this over

and over again. And I see one is on

seven medicines and they're on seven

medicines to treat seven different

symptoms and now they have side effects

from all those seven medicines. Maybe

two of them are to treat the side

effects from the other five. Right? And

that's bad. I'd love to talk about

psychedelics with the preface that uh

we're talking about this in in a legal

clinical setting. What are your thoughts

on these drugs for therapeutic potential

also potential hazards

etc? the data coming from the the labs

and the academic centers um is so

powerfully positive. These are used in

professional hands and with the right

kind of guidance are extremely powerful

tools but used in the right way. What

happens is we see less communication or

less chatter in the outer parts of the

brain right in the outer parts of the

cortex. That's where language is, that's

where vision is. That's where executive

function is. So planning and t task

execution. So so much of that is about

making our way in the world around us.

And I think when we take the

neurotransmission out of those places,

right, and we set it in a part of the

brain and say the insular cortex, right?

The parts of the brain that are sort of

in the middle, right? Which which I

think I believe is where our humanness

really is. So the psychedelics make

there be less chatter, communication in

these other parts of the brain and then

we become seated in the part of the

brain that I I believe is most about our

experience of true humanness. You know,

it's why people can sort of see with

clarity that oh that trauma

like that thing is not my fault, right?

Like we feel a sense of compassion for

ourselves. We relieve ourselves, release

ourselves from guilt and and it's like

why is this so helpful to people? And I

think it's because it can do what we are

trying to get at in good therapy. But it

can really catalyze that by just putting

a person in that part of the brain that

can see it for what it is without all

that chatter in the cortex about how you

got to think it's your fault or you

won't avoid it again and and that makes

the repetition compulsion. How do I

think ahead to the next thing that might

happen and what else bad might happen? I

mean, we don't get anywhere doing that.

these psychedelics, the medicinal value,

I believe, is putting us in that part of

the brain where a person can really find

truth. And that's why I think that that

that's come so far in these few years

because I I I think that is very

clinically evident. And I think we're

going to see more and more the value of

that and how what the psychedelics do

can become I believe a heruristic for

understanding like wait how are our

brains really functioning and what are

the parts that really matter to our

experience of being human. It's those

parts of the brain, right? The deep

parts of the brain, the insular cortex

and the and the areas around it that say

light up when a person has an uh an

experience of spiritual ecstasy or an

experience of connection with another

person, right? So, we we kind of have

these telltale markers that something is

going on there that's very important and

very special. And then when they come in

a sense back online with with in a

normal cognitive way they realize like

wow now I'm applying all those

mechanisms of trying to understand truth

and to to that and what what I see is

that it's true and wow it's true like I

mean we hear that all the time which

tells me hey something different is

going on there and of course these are

powerful tools so misused like very bad

things can happen but you think about

the clinical utility and what does it

mean that so many people change for the

healthier or even change their lives. I

think we're likely to see that they are

powerful anti-trauma mechanisms again

used clinically in the right hands. And

and I think that we're also going to see

that they're a heruristic for

understanding our brain that goes

against what I see as some of the

reflexive hubris of well the outer parts

must be the best because that's what

makes us human and other animals don't

have it and we're better because we're

human. I mean this makes no sense. You

know,

>> I'd like to talk about MDMA. What sorts

of states do you think MDMMA is creating

um that can uh explain why it's a useful

therapeutic tool in some cases and and

what sorts of cases those might be?

>> This is very different than the

psychedelics, right? Which are seating

our consciousness in these deep centers

of the brain, right? Whereas what MDMA

is doing is sort of flooding with

positive neurotransmitters, right, in

certain parts of the brain. And I think

what that creates is a greater

permissiveness inside to entertain or

approach different things. And when

these systems are are flooded with these

neurotransmitters, it's more permissive

to think about that, right? And to think

about that without again all the chatter

of that's your fault or you're never

going to get anywhere because of that or

you know what that means or right? They

can kind of go away and then we can

think about it in a way that isn't

through the lens of fear. And I think

that's the power there is that there

it's permissive of approaching something

contemplating something um you know a

different a novelty as we talk about a

dnovo approach and I think that's also

why the experience can vary because you

could also see how if you're not

thinking about something right so

there's not a clinical guidance to it

you could you could be in a state where

like I just feel good but it but that's

not necessarily problem solving so the

clinical guidance says is hey let's take

that state and do something with it

right let's now now that you're in this

state let's hey let's make hey well the

sun is shining right you're in a state

where we can look at things that are

traumatic right we can approach them

from a denovo perspective and we're

coming to understand that they have

immense potential to be helpful to us

but I think and hope that that only also

increases our respect for those

modalities and what can come what

negative can happen if we're if we're

not respectful.

>> I have a question about language. Um, in

your book, you talk about how we need to

be careful about the use of language

around trauma, maybe problem solving and

problem describing in general. How

should we think about language in

parsing trauma? And in your book, you

talk about um you give some cautionary

notes about um talking about depression,

trauma, and PTSD in terms that that

might diminish their real um severity in

some cases. And uh and I was really

struck by that. So maybe just touch on,

you know, how should we talk about these

things in a way that um doesn't diminish

them for ourselves or for other people

>> and um at the same time honors the fact

that there's a lot of trauma out there

and um there's a lot of depression out

there and and we need to talk about it.

We just have to be very careful what

we're saying and what we're

communicating. And I think this doesn't

mean because you know there's a sort of

phenomenon now where where people are

trying to control language I think too

much like you can't say anything that

someone else might find hurtful or you

have to refer to people in ways they

choose to be referred to even if those

are ways that others don't understand or

ways they themselves have decided or

ways that might be psychologically or

clinically unhelpful. So I think the

over control of language is not good.

But I think the specificity of language

of what are we trying to say? How are we

defining it? Even the word trauma,

right? We're talking about trauma. So we

want to define what that means, right?

It doesn't just mean like oh anything

kind of negative, right? Because then

that dilutes it down to meaning nothing,

right? It also doesn't just mean, you

know, um injury in combat, right? Like

we have to talk about what that is. So I

think anchoring it to something that

rises to the magnitude of overwhelming

our coping skills and changing us like

then at least I define it that way and I

can communicate that to you and we can

understand what we're talking about.

>> I'd like to talk about a concept of

taking care of oneself. We hear about

this concept of taking care of oneself

and and I think uh at a surface level um

it can sound a little bit light you know

oh take care take care take good care

you know we um

>> but to me it's a deep and powerful

concept and I was very um happy to see

it in your book and also to learn a lot

of um

>> of ideas about what that really looks

like

>> how should we think about taking care of

oneself

>> I see here what I think is a very

fascinating dichotomy, right? That in

some ways, like think about how complex

our brains are, right? How complex our

psyches, our unconscious minds are,

there's so much complexity there. But on

the other hand, psychological concepts

that are consistent with health are

often very simple, right? Which by which

I don't mean light, right? But but

simple, straightforward, right? And and

I think self-care is absolutely one of

them. I mean, how much is talked about

how to take care of oneself that just

skips over the basics that are necessary

as a building block for all else? Or it

doesn't matter how many chefs or

vacations or whatever a person has if

the basics of self-care aren't squared

away. And it's not a light concept to

say like look, are you sleeping enough,

right? Are you eating well? Are you

getting natural light? Are you

interacting with people who are good to

interact with? Right? Are you accepting

negative interactions in your life? Are

you living in circumstances that make

you feel okay or not? The they're very

very basic premises, but so often we're

not looking at them at all. Right? We're

not looking at them at all because we

tend to skip over them. And we tend to

skip over them either because again in

some automatic way that sometimes is

traumdriven or we're not going to look

at that, right? And often not taking

care of ourselves can have the

punishment, distraction, right? There's

so much that can come into that or our

sense of power is is tied to not taking

care of ourselves. I mean, I'll give you

an example is I I tend to for whatever

reason do reasonably well um with very

poor self-care, right? And like that was

very adaptive when I was in medical

training, right? And I'm like, okay, I

can I can eat a lot today, I can not

eat, right? I can sleep two hours, I can

sleep eight, right? I mean overall

that's not good and it hasn't been good

for me as I've aged. But then I I I

realized at some point look I'm doing

all these things to make myself

healthier but like what I ignore that

right and why am I ignoring it? That was

a key question. Why am I ignoring it?

Because somewhere inside of me as it was

and still to some extent is this idea

that my ability to be really functional

right to generate success in the world

around me is tied to my ability to do

that right that oh if I but if I stop

doing that and now I'm like I'm eating

and sleeping regularly then I'm going to

lose some edge and so so you even I

think about this all the time but I I

realize hey I'm also I'm not doing it

inside you know and and I think it's

really grounding to the basics um that

really help us of like what are the

basics of what I'm doing and not doing

in my life. Diet, exercise, sleep,

people, circumstances, um leisure

activities, I mean sunlight, I mean I

think immensely important and

dramatically undervalued.

>> I want to thank you for today's

discussion. Um I found it to be

incredibly informative and I know our

listeners will also. I also want to

thank you for the work you do. I've done

a wide and deep search for people um in

these areas and there are so few who

have the background in medical training

and physiology in the psychoanalytic and

psychiatric realm and also have um a

grounding toward the future you know of

what's coming and who can encapsulate so

many different orientations and and

bring them together into a coherent

piece and for your book um which is

incredible I will go on record saying I

think this is the definitive book on

trauma.

>> Wow.

>> And I really encourage people to to read

it and we'll continue to encourage

people to read it. It's so many uh

valuable takeaways and insights and

tools there. So uh on behalf of the

listeners and myself, thank you so much

for joining us today.

>> You're very welcome and I I take that to

heart and I'm very appreciative of being

here. So you're very welcome and thank

you as well.

>> Thank you.