All right, everybody. Welcome back to

the number one podcast in the world, the

allin podcast. Episode 273.

It's a huge week. Saxs is our show. We

got to get Mark Beni off, CEO of

Salesforce.

>> I'm the only one left here. You're the

only one left. That's why that's how I

made it on.

>> No software CEOs, right, to China.

>> There's no software uh CEOs in China.

>> Interesting. But did you get the invite?

What's your what's your status with this

administration because you were

obviously very famous for, you know,

being a Democrat on the left? Um, and

>> I'm not a Democrat on the left. I never

have been.

>> What are you talking about? You donated

to all these folks and now you're kind

of in Trump's camp. What is it?

>> Listen, um, uh, the number one thing is,

hey, I'm here to support the country.

>> That's what I do.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you're right in the middle. You have

uh an allegiance to America.

>> I hope so.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not a Democrat or Republican.

>> You're an independent.

>> I'm an American.

>> Okay. I like it. Ben off got the invite

to the two hottest tickets. He got the

invite to Windsor Castle in Tales and

then he got the invite uh when Prince

Charles came here too. I saw he was in

Tales then too.

>> And also we were at that Saudi dinner

too. Weren't you there?

>> I did not go to that one. All right.

Well, we have a big docket here. The

Trumpi summit has begun. That is the

number one story right now after a

two-month delay because of the war in

Iran. This is the first visit to China

since 2017.

Seventh face-to-face meeting for Trump

and President Xi. There are 12 hours, 15

hours ahead of us. Today, Thursday was

officially day one. Here's what

happened. China agreed that the straight

of Hormuz should remain open with no

military commitment and that Iran should

not have a nuclear weapon. So, we're in

sync on that. On Taiwan, this is a

little spicy. She warned that quote if

handled poorly the two countries will

collide or even clash putting the entire

USChina relationship in an extremely

dangerous situation. Poly market says

Taiwan is safe for 2026 only 6% chance

China invades this year on 23 million in

volume which is a lot of volume 17%

chance roughly triple

that something happens by the end of

2027. There's been a lot of debate. Uh

some people say it will happen after

Trump is out of office. Some people

think it's going to happen while he's in

office on trade. She committed to buy

more soybeans, US oil,

LNG, and 200 Boeing jets. She said the

talks laid out a vision for

constructive, strategic, and stable

ties. Uh Trump was effusive in his

praise uh for his friendship, giving the

disclaimer that people don't like it

when he praises she. Let's stop here and

have a bit of a discussion. Freedberg,

you uh have been a bit obsessed with

this relationship and the bipolar

nature of it. What are your thoughts

here? And what is the goal for Trump?

What is winning for Trump coming out of

this? What is winning for she?

I mean, she made comments in his uh

opening remarks that it would be ideal

if the United States and China could

avoid the Thusidities trap, which as

you'll recall, we talked about with

Graeme Allison and we've talked about

several times over the last few years

that as a a rising power meets a kind of

declining power, there's always some

moment where you end up in this kind of

state of conflict. And the question is,

can the US and China avoid conflict and

find a path to cooperation, which has

happened a few times in history when we

found ourselves in this moment, but

doesn't often happen. And I think the

way to kind of think about the

opportunity is if you're in a resource

expansive world where you are increasing

productivity and increasing production

globally at an accelerating pace,

perhaps there's less of a reason to have

conflict. Perhaps there's a way that uh

both societies, both countries can

increase the quality of life for their

people without taking it away from the

other side. And in a world where you're

more resource constrained or resource

static, that becomes less possible. You

have to fight and grab land and grab

territory and grab resources from the

other side.

And it seems like in this moment when we

are seeing these extraordinary

technology shifts unlocked by AI and

automation and biotech and all of these

kind of moments of which could be true

abundance ahead of us. It seems like the

perfect moment to say hey maybe the

world can be more multipolar. It doesn't

need to be uniolar. It doesn't need to

be bipolar but everyone can participate

in the expansion of the pie. And I think

that that's kind of the idealistic way

to look at the opportunity in front of

the administration and Chinese

leadership right now. Is there a way to

kind of look at the next 30 years and

ask the question, how do we all share

proportionally in growing the pie and

not find ourselves in a moment of

conflict where we assume the pie is

static? That's I think hopefully the

message that comes out of this from an

administration political perspective. It

just seems like this is going to be a

major coup for the president if he can

walk away with a series of trade deals

with China that increase job security,

increase prosperity, increase income

levels, increase investment in America

and American jobs. It would be a huge

win. And I think that's the tactical

stuff that people will be truly looking

for. And I think the big strategic

question which I care most about which

is avoiding conflict. Is there a way we

can chart an economic and cooperative

path that doesn't involve eating each

other and involves sharing in a bigger

pie?

>> Chimoth, why is Trump bringing all of

these CEOs with him and what does

success look like uh coming out of this

meeting?

>> I think that you find a resolution and a

path forward with China through economic

cooperation. It's the largest consumer

economy in the world.

It's still largely closed off. And so I

think what this is was about bringing

some amount of financial firepower with

them so that they could start to

penetrate that market. Planes, cars,

chips, you know, very much hard

equipment type stuff. I've said this

before, but I think the Chinese are very

much a top- down confusion societal

philosophy,

whereas Americans are much more bottoms

up kind of an individualist

construction.

The fact that we're so different

actually gives us a lot of room to find

cooperation and not find conflict. And I

think at the center of that is economic

cooperation. I had a friend call me this

morning, very prominent Democrat. And

you know, he was the one that called out

the media, which I was surprised by, and

he said, you know, the media gets it all

wrong because they're talking about why

is he bringing these CEOs? And instead

the reality is that the simplest and

shest path to a no conflict dant with

China is economic entanglement and it

has to be birectional because really for

so many years it's been one way where

they're sending us the cheap goods that

they've wanted.

So I think strategically it's good and I

think you know I'll just take a slightly

different take on what Freick said. I

think behind closed doors they're

probably just figuring out how to divide

the pie.

>> Uh unpack that for a second. divide

which pie the the globe the economy the

the western hemisphere versus

>> look China China still needs a lot of

energy they also need a lot of critical

technologies that America provides and

so I think that there's a trade there

and the quit proquo is there are certain

regions of the world where we want them

to deescalate their participation in

central South America being probably the

most important and then the second is

probably in the Middle East and then

maybe the third is just to find some

reasonable view of the Asia pack region

together and I think there's a trade

there to be done and in that you kind of

start to carve up the world into a

pretty easily identifiable bipolar

construction.

They also uh Mark need customers uh to

buy their goods and we've had a bit of a

uh mixed signals there. Tariffs

obviously last year sticking it to China

in a pretty hard way. the decoupling

after COVID. Hey, we need to be

independent energy, PPE, drugs, chips

from China. Now, we're kind of saying,

hey, let's come to the table and build

connective tissue. So, sort that out for

us on a business level. Should the two

countries be deeply entwined? And then

how do we manage having too much

dependency on China?

Well, you heard it today from President

Xi when he said he wants a wider door.

And that means that he wants the door of

business to open even wider between the

two countries. We have our absolute best

salespeople there. Not just our

president, who has to be one of the best

salespeople I've ever met, but also

we've got Elon, we've got Jensen selling

chips,

>> Kelly Ortberg selling planes,

>> Kelly selling planes. He's already sold

200. He wants to sell financial

services.

>> Brian is selling soybeans. Brian Sykes,

the CEO of Cargle. You know, Cargle is

the world's largest private company

based in Minneapolis and he is going to

come away selling a lot of soybeans. So,

we have a you go through the list of the

CEOs. Each one is our best salesperson

in this category and they're going to

come back with orders and it's going to

be amazing. And by the way, I think you

said it very well. you know, this idea

of business is this kind of greatest

platform for change. Um, they are

working together like never before.

Don't forget, this isn't Trump's and

she's first meeting. These guys really

like each other. They are very connected

together. You can see they're smiling

with each other. They're very they have

a sales orientation. So, I expect a lot

of order books to come back.

>> I have a question for you. Are you

allowed to sell software in China? We uh

well with the right the Chinese have a

lot of data residency laws. So uh you

know we we do it is we don't have any

offices or employees in China. We never

have. The only time we end up with any

residue in China is when we buy a

company and they have a presence over

there and then we have to devest from

it. We have an exclusive partnership

with Alibaba. Everything just goes

through them and we we don't do anything

in China.

>> Is it significant growing? Is it what

percentage of your revenue is it?

>> Yeah, it's it's great. You know, we have

it's a great partnership. Key customers

of Salesforce like Louis Vuitton, you

know, or Laura Piana, I know Chimoth

loves Laura Piana.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, Laura Piana sells a lot of

sweaters in China and then, you know, in

all other stores all over the world,

they use Salesforce, but in China, it's

Salesforce on Alibaba.

>> It's still your code, but then it

resides in their servers for data

residency stuff. their data residency,

their their partnership. It's a totally

unique relationship. It's the only place

in the world that we do such a thing.

>> Yeah. And it has to be all the data has

to be kept in China. All the data has to

be accessible by the CCP.

>> That's why it's so extraordinary. By the

way, what Elon has, you know, Elon has

Tesla in China, no partnership. He's the

only one. He has a phenomenal

relationship with Shei. When you look at

she and um Elon together, notice how

differential and respectful they are of

each other. And here is these AI cars

with all these cameras, Americanmade,

you know, um Chinese factories driving

around China. That is pretty incredible.

>> How do you think he pulled that off? Is

that just a one-off exception?

>> I think Elon's the greatest salesman in

the world. That's how

>> I mean the cynical take on a chim would

be they wanted him there and they wanted

to study the company and the innovation

and they have now become the biggest

competitor uh with their EVs and so it

is a pretty coopetition I guess it would

be the cynical way to do

>> I want one of those new BYD golf you

know uh uh what do you call those with

the doors that flip flip up

>> Gwing

>> Gwing I want one of those Gwing BYDs

they have some cool cars have you seen

those.

>> They're cool, but they're not safe.

>> They're incredible.

>> They're talking in this in this they

they said they're talking about bringing

some of those cars to the US. That would

be incredible.

>> Uh would hollow out the entire

automotive industry here if we had

$20,000, $30,000 cars from China. It

would be the end of the US automotive

industry overnight. And uh Tim Cook's

there. He has to store all his data

there. That's been a pretty

controversial issue for him because

Freedberg, if anybody has private

information or is a dissident, Tim Cook

has to give that data over to the

Chinese Communist Party. How do you

think this plays in America visav the

midterms? Freedberg, Americans feel

ignored, inflation over 3% and they look

at the Iran war as a betrayal by

President Trump and they look at China

as not material to their well-being. So

when you look at Trump being on a

six-month timeline for the midterms and

he's only got two more years in office

after that, you got she who's working

off of a hundredyear playbook. How does

that dynamic play out with Trump and the

midterms and his core constituency,

MAGA, which is now evolving into America

first, America only? And this kind of is

is rubbing that group of people the

wrong way.

>> I think the second and third order

effects of anything that comes out of

China is what's going to be most

consequential to the average voter,

which is job security and income

security and income growth. And then

cost of living impact. The cost of

living impact would be if there can be

some deflationary effect from a trade

deal that makes access to goods lower

price for Americans. And then anything

that America is exporting, there's

increased demand. Like there's a

follow-on effect to the soybean export

market.

There's a follow-on effect obviously to

the oil export market. There's a

follow-on effect to for example

technology and software being exported.

So that increases economic productivity

in the US and increases job security

income. And then the other side of the

trade deal is can we get stuff that

Americans really care about and make it

cheaper. Can people now buy stuff at the

store that drops in price by 30 40%

where we've kind of tariffed and reduce

trade that increases the price of

things. So if those deals kind of get

worked out, people will see things get

cheaper at the store and they'll feel

good about kind of their income

security. And I think that could be

positive. I think that's what's

ultimately going to make people make the

blue red decision when they go to the

polls in November.

>> That's the schizophrenic nature of this

chimoth. We have Americans who very much

want cheap goods from China and then we

have last year all these tariffs being

put on and we have this great

decoupling. So, how do you handicap the

midterms, Trump's timeline and she's

timeline and what their goals are and

then I guess we'll get to Taiwan after

that.

>> I don't know. No, it's I think it's a

little bit above my pay grade. But what

I will say is that the midterms I think

are probably going to swing more based

on these recent jerrymandering rulings

from the Supreme Court and what happened

in the Virginia Supreme Court and what's

going to happen in the state

legislatures of these red states and

some of these blue states more than

what's going to come out of this summit

with with President Xi. So let me just

put that over here. And I think that

money is getting organized. There was an

article in the New York Times this week

which really surprised me, but the

largest donor in the in this election

cycle is Andre and Horowitz.

>> Yeah. What is that about? Yeah.

>> I think it's because they're they're

trying to establish themselves as part

of the financial firmament of America,

which I think strategically as a

business makes a lot of sense. Like

they're in the AUM business, right? So

they can't stop at 100 billion of AUM.

They're marching towards a trillion.

they're going to be the next Blackstone,

which I think is an incredible feat and

they're building a juggernaut of a

business. But I think they also realize

that politics is now a permanent part of

that if they're going to be investing in

higher quantum more geopolitically

influenced parts of the capital cycle

and parts of the economy. So I think the

midterms are largely that the money

that's going to be raised plus the

gerrymandering that will get done and

undone over the next few months. Again I

think I think the the Chinese and the

and the Americans have a very strong

incentive to kind of divide up the

world. Like I think the future at this

point you have these critical resource

inputs. China has a strangle hold. You

have energy and

intelligence AI where America has a

strangle hold on one and an effective

strangle hold on the other which is

energy and I think there's a trade there

to be done and as long as you can

negotiate what a reasonable give and

take is I think they're just going to

find common ground like does China

really need to be in Chile and Venezuela

and Panama? Probably not. Does America

have to have an incredibly strong point

of view about the straight of Malaa?

Probably not. And so there's probably a

trade to be done so that we can get

their rare earths, they can get some

more oil, everybody can be happy, and we

can all find abundance.

>> Yeah. The the key issue here is China is

and most people are, you know,

chinophobic, but China has serious

systematic issues with population, with

their real estate, with their GDP. All

of this is in decline.

And I think she most of all is concerned

about another Tianaan Square if he

doesn't get more people working. They've

had the largest growth of any middle

class

you know in history. They have the

largest middle class in the world. I

think uh you were sort of referencing

that Mark with luxury goods and luxury

goods providers are going there but it's

tenuous uh

>> and that's the number one by the way

that is the number one point of focus of

President Xi. President Xi's focus has

been getting 500 million people from

poverty into the middle class.

>> It's not exactly how we think about the

world in the United States. That's the

main focus of the political leader and

and he's achieved that. That that has

been an incredible accomplishment

>> and and but it's at risk right now

because their GDP is falling. They need

their factories to operate. They're

being undercut by other regions. And

then of course Taiwan is what they want

uh most of all and supremacy in you know

their part of the world.

>> I'm not convinced of that actually.

>> I think what they want Oh, I mean I

think we just kind of said it and to

summarize they they want to have you

know economic success. They want to

continue to grow their middle class.

They want to continue to have a healthy

economy. They want more trade. I thought

it was interesting that they're talking

about Trump is talking about not only

having the board of peace now he wants a

board of trade. That was a discussion

we've never heard before today. Then uh

we have she saying I want the wider

door. Then we have all these folks there

are selling their products. Two people

we didn't mention the co Visa and the

CEO of Mastercard are on the trip. Now

why is that? Because if you look at you

know commerce in China it is dominated

by companies like Alibaba and and these

organization who use these super apps.

It's not really all the way open for a

Visa and a Mastercard. That would be

incredible for those executives. So in

the same way that we want to sell

airplanes, we want to sell chips,

Nvidia, the Qualcomm coristiano is also

there, we want to sell soybeans, we want

to sell payment services, we want to

sell everything. The more economic

collaboration and cooperation you can

get between the two countries, the more

peace you're going to have. I think 100%

I agree.

>> Three, three hard questions, Mark. Uh,

should we be selling them the latest

chips? Yes or no? In your mind,

>> I think it's irrelevant at this point. I

think that the Chinese models are as

competitive as these US models and

they've learned to make these models

without having the highest end chips. I

think the highest end chips is kind of

more of a ego gratification for us. We

have Blackwell, we have this, we have

that. But when you look at their models,

their models are excellent. They fast

follow us. You know, the best models we

had ago, they have now.

>> Should they should we just sell it to

them since they're figuring it out

anyway, Mark?

>> We probably should just sell whatever we

can at this point. Got it.

>> And uh I think that as I said, I think

the more economic cooperation and

collaboration is better. And if you want

peace, I think that this

>> I think Taiwan, it's kind of a circle

back to that. Yeah.

>> Freeberg, uh, your take on chips. Should

we sell them latest chips? And then

Chimat, I want to get the answer to that

question from each of you.

>> I think it's inevitable that they get

there. I, by the way, I do think this is

one of the key aspects of this deal.

I've said this before, but maybe Taiwan

becomes less relevant to the US and to

China as both China and the US um,

mainland FAB. So, as we build out our

own

>> manufacturing capacity here in the US,

and I know we've struggled and there are

fits and starts and issues with it and

whatnot, but the the TSMC facility in

Arizona is running, they're printing,

and if it works and they figure out how

to scale it. There'll be other

facilities in the US and then China's

mainlanding with Huawei standing up a

lot of facilities. They've got a multi-

I think I talked about this on one of

the shows, a multi-deion

government investment in ensuring

competitiveness not just with fabs but

also with semiconductor manufacturing

equipment so that they don't get cut off

on the supply chain with companies like

ASML blocking sales into mainland. So as

they build out their own semiconductor

capital equipment systems and their own

fabs, does Taiwan really matter? Is

there really that much of a security

risk to the United States and to China

in that sense? And perhaps what

everyone's focused on, which is this

pivot point around Taiwan. Maybe it's

not that the US is selling Taiwan down

the river, but it's just that no one

gives a anymore. So, you know,

there may be this kind of cultural

moment for China where they want to at

some point say, "Hey, by 2040," which I

think is what I've heard, they want to

be able to kind of, you know, bring

Taiwan fully into the sphere. maybe the

US shouldn't care that much at that

point from a economic and security

perspective. So I think that's that's

one of the things that's happening that

>> so you're in the camp of sell the chips

to them and it will demotivate the TSMC

or the capture of those fast.

>> Put it this way. I think the more the

global productivity index can climb, the

better off all humans will be. So the

question is, do you really want the west

to see their productivity index climb

and then you're effectively forcing

conflict and forcing issues with the

east? Or if we all grow our productivity

index, we all make more stuff, everyone

benefits, everyone has better jobs,

everyone makes more money, everyone has

access to more stuff, the cost of goods

comes down for everyone, doesn't that

make the world a safer and more secure

place?

>> Sure. So I think this idea that like

technology should be held to one uh side

of the world and not given to the other

side of the world is inevitably going to

lead to conflict or increase the

probability of conflict. Whereas if you

let technology diffuse and proliferate,

everyone benefits and conflict indices

go down.

>> It's commoditized, you know, and

everybody has access to it. So then it

it becomes

>> you give everyone a higher standard of

living and you give everyone's economy a

boost and you give everyone less reason

to fight with each other. Since you went

there with Taiwan, should we take our

arm sales off of the table, Freedberg?

And should we ask China to not sell arms

to Iran?

>> Yes, we should ask China to not sell

arms to Iran.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> I don't know what there is. What is

there to talk about there? Because I

think what she wants is for us to not

sell arms to Taiwan. So, would you make

that trade, I guess, is what I'm saying.

>> Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good

question. And I think in that context

that's that's a nuance one. I don't

>> that's why I bring it up because that

seems to be

>> generally you're right. Yeah. I mean

generally that's probably a a trade that

you know that should be kind of trade do

the deal.

>> So you say make the trade

>> chimath. I mean I kind of know

>> we're 18 months from Taiwan not being an

important moment of conversation the way

it is today. Why 18 months? because we

are at a point where we're probably 1

to2 nanometers away from being able to

do what we need Taiwan to strategically

do for us. And so as we scale up our

chip fabs, as we get more capacity and

interestingly there are these orthogonal

technologies being developed. I don't

know if you guys saw but neuralink was

showcasing now a machine that is

literally operating at the

almost nanometer scale to do the brain

operations for the implantation all

automatically. So when when you when you

have the dexterity and the capability

mechanically to make these things, the

real reason then is a very different one

than what it is today. Today it's

economic and if you take that off the

table, I think we'll have a very

different attitude to Taiwan. That's

number one. Number two, sell the chips.

>> And the reason we should sell the chips

is we want Nvidia to win. We do not want

to give enough oxygen for Huawei to then

all of a sudden emerge and have a

version of a chip that works. And what

Mark said is totally right. These models

are catching up. They're almost at the

same pace. So the more important thing,

Jason, is probably we should all agree

is just like let's have a reasonable KYC

for how the models get used so that you

know somebody in a basement doesn't cook

up some boweapon. Meanwhile, sell the

chips. Proliferate. Let Jensen win. I'd

rather he win than Huawei win.

>> Mark, I'm going to give you the last

word, but I'm going to force you to

answer a hard question. China sets up a

blockade around Taiwan and they decide

they're taking it. Should the US defend

it? Yes or no? I I've said this for

years. I I don't agree with Neil

Ferguson on that point. I think that

this is a nonsense issue. I think China

and Taiwan will reconcile. I think that

uh Well, first of all, I do want to

schedule though Chimath for that neural

link. Um next Tuesday 5:00 we can drill

your brain. Chimoth, can I get you in?

>> What are you trying to do? Put some

empathy into Chimoth. I talked to Elon.

He said it doesn't. You just drill right

in. There's a and boom. And then well,

you can get hooked up. It is the

craziest thing.

>> I know. I got you scheduled at 5:00 on

Tuesday tomorrow. Hold your hand if

you're too nervous.

>> And by the way,

finally had a hard literally like

for a even better show.

>> Abs. It would be incredible. Yes. And uh

I would laugh and I would giggle. We

could get into show tunes here. Free

break. I know you're um Yeah. not big on

on the show too.

>> If I only had a heart.

>> If I only had a brain.

>> A heart. A brain. And what's the third

one?

>> If I only had a neural link.

>> You got to give you courage. REEDBERG.

>> OKAY, move on.

>> All right, let's move on here.

>> Your By the way, I took kids.

>> Tim stayed home. I took his kids to the

Wizard of Oz at the sphere. It was

incredible. If you haven't seen it,

>> yeah. do something enriching with my

kids or hit the crafts table.

>> No, I I'll be honest with you. I get a

little freaked out in large

>> like groups of people.

>> Yeah, I get I get a No, just just like

when there's a lot of people, I get very

nervous.

>> Really?

>> Is this because of your newfound

celebrity? Is this is that the issue or

just always like No, I don't even want

to go there. I just have these bad

thoughts of like, oh my god, what if

something happens? How do we get out and

like

>> terrorist attack?

panic disorder. I don't know. Yeah,

exactly. You have panic disorder.

>> Panic disorder.

>> I don't I don't like these large spaces

with lots of people. I get a little

winded up.

>> Anyway, your kids had a great time.

Great show.

>> Tony Robbins lives very near you,

Shimoth. Don't you think we can get that

to happen?

>> Yeah. Let's get Tony Robbins in there to

clear that blockage. You're a Tony

Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into

Tony Robbins?

>> I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my

conference this week. It was incredible.

Actually, he did an incredible

presentation.

>> Did he unlock for you your success? He

claims to that he has you on the roster

of $50,000 a year CEOs?

>> I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins.

So I mean

>> what percentage of your success is

attributed to Tony's mentorship?

>> Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I

don't think there would be a sales

force. So there you go.

>> Can you actually no jokes aside, can you

tell us like what like what like what

were those big kind of blockages and how

did you how did he help you or how did

you work through it?

>> Just focusing on hey the questions you

know the quality of your questions is

the quality of your life. It's that

insight and just are you asking yourself

the right questions. What do you want?

What's important to you? How are you

getting it? What is preventing you from

having it? How will you know that you

have it? Just no one had ever said that

to me. And then it was just like clear

to me, wait, I need to write that down.

Like what do I really want right now?

What is my point of focus?

>> And that is what gave me motivation as

soon as I got that clarity. I mean, a

lot of us do it automatically, but

that's not where I was when I was a kid.

That's for sure.

>> Did you run across the coals? Did you do

any of that kind of stuff?

>> Oh, I've many times.

>> Really?

>> Yeah, of course.

>> Okay, there it is, folks.

>> Hey, we can go together.

>> Uh, absolutely. We had Tony on the show.

I tried to get in there and understand

his psychology, but he just had us do

breathing exercises. All right. The uh

All-In Summit is happening again. Fifth

year in a row. Wow. We've been doing

this for a while. Allin.com/events

September 13th, 14th, and 15th. We'll

have you back, Mark, in year six. But

when you score so highly on a keynote,

we give you two years off so that we can

build up the anticipation. So coming in

2027, our guy Mark Benning off. But for

this year, uh, allin.com/events.

Okay. Topic two, AI's impact.

>> By the way, real quick, can can I just

do a quick PSA?

>> A public service announcement coming.

>> Public service announcement.

>> Yes.

>> Nick, just pull up this link. This dog

named Scooter needs a home.

>> Okay.

>> Promise my wife I do this. Don't get

Don't get mad at me. This dog named

Scooter needs a home. He's in Baldwin

Park. Dog's about to die. Lives in

Baldwin Park at the Animal Care and

Control. They're overwhelmed in LA.

There are so many homeless street dogs

that are being collected. They're all

being put to sleep.

>> Wow.

>> Someone give this dog a home.

>> Gorgeous dog.

>> Scooter.

>> Good dog.

>> Link. Link will be on the YouTube

channel. Thank you very much.

>> Are you getting a little emotional,

Freeberg, about this dog being put down?

>> I just don't like these, you know, all

these street dogs. like they they didn't

choose that situation they were in and

then they all end up kind of getting

pulled in by animal care and control and

then they all get put to sleep. Kind of

sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You

got to have a heart.

>> No, I have a big heart. Chimath, it's

$10,000 to keep these dogs alive for

another week. Can we count on you for

that donation?

>> Any purebred white golden retrievers in

that bunch?

>> No, they're just muts. Just muts.

>> We have a cat that we got at the shelter

actually.

>> Kind of a story. walked into the shelter

looking for a cat. All of a sudden,

we're in the shelter. This cat's like

coming at, you know, my kids and all of

a sudden they're, "Okay, we'll take this

cat." What is this cat's name?

>> This cat's name is Cloud.

>> Cloud.

>> That's our cat.

>> Wow.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yeah. We have Cloud the cat.

>> All right. I like it. That's awesome.

>> All right. AI's impact on software

rippling through the market. Mark,

you're on the front lines here.

>> Thank you for reminding me.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean in pain and suffering

are lessons, right? I think the Buddha

and Tony Robbins both taught us that and

the only way to the other side is

through as you know, Mark. So,

Salesforce down a whopping 37% 90

billion in losses for you. service now

42% workday 45%

180 billion in market cap's been lost

and the assumption mark is that AI is

going to make it unnecessary for you to

use Slack or Salesforce or HubSpot

whatever it happens to be that you'll

just ask your AI to solve this for you

and we'll all look at a piece of glass

and have no actual software the AI will

just tell us what to do what's your

response to the fear the criticism and

how are you managing this massive change

internally?

>> You're right. It's the SAS apocalypse.

Um, I mean, it's not my first SAS

apocalypse, honestly, but it's the

current SAS apocalypse. So, we are all

now drinking at Salesforce Esprillas.

And, uh, we actually have a pet

Sasquatch as well. Yeah, we're all a

little more sassy. That's what I would

say. That's number one.

>> You bring the sass to sass.

>> We got to bring sass to sassy, you know.

And then,

>> well, you've always been a sassy guy.

>> Yeah. And then number two is look the

market is rerated. It's not a mystery.

Everybody knows you know you guys have

been talking about it for a while. I've

been living it. So the market software

market's rerated. It happens every now

and then. There are cycles. You know

I've been doing Salesforce for 27 years

enterprise software for 40 and the

market's rerated. So you mentioned

HubSpot. They're trading at two times

sales. I've never seen that before. They

just had a great quarter. We saw a lot

of great quarters. I looked at the top

10 major enterprise software companies.

They all had great quarters and they're

all trading in two time sales. So why?

Because of everything you just said.

There's like, you know, a hypnosis

around AI and, you know, we haven't seen

it show up in the numbers yet. If it

shows up in the numbers, maybe people

will be right. Right now, all we know is

there's still a lot of enterprise

software being sold in the world.

>> So you've been through this. It's not

your first time.

>> This is not my first apocalypse. I mean,

I remember the cases apocalypse of 2020

when COVID happened and all of it, you

know, everything collapsed. There was

the great cases apocalypse in 2016.

What's that?

>> In all sincerity, what's your strategy

and how do you deal with,

>> you know, your internal team? Obviously,

they are compensated through, you know,

stock and this is headwind and you have

competition for employees from OpenAI,

Anthropic, and SpaceX. So, how do you

deal with uh rallying the troops and

then how do you develop a strategy?

>> Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot

easier to be a private company right now

where you don't have to be rationalized

by the public markets. If you're in the

public markets and you get rerated,

that's the reality of being in the

public markets. And I think that for

what I tell my employees, what I just

told my employees is look, you can't get

drunk on the stock price. If you are

like focused on today all the time and

that is how you're getting, you know,

your emotional state, it it's not going

to work for you. You have to find a

different anchor. So I try not to pay

really a lot of attention to it. I'm

focused on my customer success. How is

our revenue? Look, we'll do over 46

billion this year, more than 16 billion

in cash flow. We have more than 83,000

employees. These are the things that I'm

focused on. What is the level of

customer success that we're delivering?

That's a really important I can't

control the stock price. There's nothing

I can do. And for our employees, they

can't control it either. That they need

to believe in the company and the

quality of the success they're

delivering to customers in the long

term. And then you look at the market,

you look at these other companies, not

just us. They're doing great. And I

mean, I saw some great numbers, but it

doesn't really matter. The market's

rerated.

>> Well, you've got all that free cash

flow. You've been great at acquisition.

So, I'm sure you're uh

>> I've bought some great companies, by the

way. Everything's a little cheaper. I

like that.

>> Yeah. Chimoth, what's your take on this?

You've been pretty critical of the SAS

space in previous episodes, pointing

out, hey, how durable are these

revenues? So, what's your take?

>> I think the low end of the market is

basically finished. I think there there

is no safe space. I think the high end

of the market where Mark operates, where

the large monoliths operate is quite

safe and the tell was this week.

The the deployment company deal

basically shows you what OpenAI is

running into. So, you know, you have to

put in $4 billion. You get all of these

folks. You gave them a 17.5% preferred

guaranteed return for what? essentially

to stand up a competitor to Ernston

Young, Anderson, Deote, PWC, Cognizant,

etc. If you just look at that, that

doesn't actually mathematically make

that much sense if you look at what

those companies are actually trading at.

But why is OpenAI doing this? I think

why is because at the high end of the

market where all the action is, what

people are finding is, hey, hold on a

second. This is a lot harder than we

thought. It's not like boop boop boop

put in a put in a prompt and beep boop

it all works. It's not how it works.

>> And so I think I think we're

>> I think we're a little oversold.

>> And I now I think this consolidation and

the rerating can happen in the opposite

direction. So what is the opposite

trade?

>> The opposite trade is who has

constructive net dollar retention, who

has negative churn that's been really

predictable, which is a way of saying

who has the best relationships. meaning

they're inside the CXOs and the seauite.

They have relationships with the CEOs

and they're trusted and they've been

around for 20 years. Those guys, I

think, are positioned to crush because

eventually, Jason, the next trade that

has to happen is when the public markets

become a little bit less breathless

about AI and they ask one simple

question. Okay, guys, you've spent $3

trillion in the last four years. What is

the ROI of these tokens?

And what's going to happen is they're

going to have to go to guys like Mark

and other people and say, "Please sell

my tokens." And that's the next shoe to

drop. If you if you had to ask me. So I

think you're going to see these revenues

which are like way out of whack like the

multiples on revenue, multiples on

assets, multiples of they're not even

multiples of those will come way back

down and I think these go back up and

you'll find a balance.

>> Yeah. And you've uh initiated what could

only be described as an unprecedented

massive stock buyback mark 50 billion.

>> I think it's the one of the largest in

history. Yeah, we we're you know we we

want to buy back as much as we can and I

would just say that you know look at a

high level look there's awesome new

capabilities like these coding agents

are awesome. Enthropic is awesome. like

I am going to probably use $300 million

of Enthropic this year at Salesforce

coding. Everything's going to be cheaper

to make. It's more efficient. I can do

things that I just could not do before.

I can go faster than ever before. I can

implement my software and sell it at the

same time. I've never been able to do

that before. I can break through

obstacles that I've had, you know, just

by focusing because I have coding agents

and humans together working together.

Today I have humans, agents and headless

platforms all interoperating never

before. So the opportunity for my own

company and the efficiency that I have

in my own company in service and support

in distribution in marketing across the

board is unprecedented. What I can do

for our customers unprecedented and you

know to that point my gosh have you seen

Anthropic? I mean it is a rocket ship

that will not stop because you can use

this product to do these incredible

amazing things and then complement it

with platforms like ours. It's you know

it's it's it's it's impossible to

describe what we're going to be able to

do for customers. It's going to be

awesome

>> and never waste a crisis. You've been

super focused on the efficiency of the

company, a headcount, share buybacks,

and I'm guessing you're looking at M&A.

So, it's not your finished up one of our

biggest deals ever, Informatica. I think

it was eight or nine billion dollars.

It's been in it's been awesome because

none of this stuff works if you don't

have context. You know, the AI is very

probabilistic. that is it can kind of

kind of figure things out but it needs

to be grounded in real data and it needs

to have that semantic layer. That means

it needs to be locked down into the

truth into a single source of truth or

it just cannot work well. And so our

customers want more harmonized data,

federated data, integrated data. So we

bought Informatica. Our customers want

our apps to use those large language

models to be able to provide not just

automation to their employees but also

to their agents just like we just said.

So like if you call 1800 no software

right now for the first time in 27 years

you talk to agent force hey agent force

what's happening but then after it

authenticates you and you get in the

system and it doesn't know who you are

then boom it'll autoes escalate you to a

human being who says oh I can see

everything you've been doing oh yeah you

just need to resolve this this and that

and so that trinity of the phone the web

and the human being are all together

it's all made possible buy this AI. We

just could never do that before. That is

awesome.

>> Was it controversial, Mark, to make

Slack headless? Was that a big decision

or was that a was everybody kind of

mostly on board with that?

>> Well, we were the first to, you know,

the way that our platform is architected

and Chimoth, you know it so well cuz

you're coding your coding agents and the

company you're building can run right on

top of it and build awesome stuff also.

So, you know, number one is we were the

first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a

REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We

always wanted to have a platform that

had every API possible. And our apps are

not hardcoded where we had to cut the

top off of them. They've always be

embedded inside our platform. So now we

can stream our apps out through a new

API called AXL and I can manifest it

into any large language model or device

or anything and it just works better

actually.

>> I think that you know when Jack Dorsey

wrote that memo Jal and part of what he

said is

>> he he's going to try to run his company

by building a world model. Yes. My

initial thought was, well, where is the

context, Mark? What you said before,

where's the semantic understanding to

create a world model? And a lot of it

for a lot of companies is actually in

Slack.

>> It's in Slack and email. Yeah, those two

places.

>> I showed you that Slackbot, Jason. I

mean, the thing is all because you run

your company on Slack, all your DMs, all

your channels, we're reading that now

through the AI and we can tell you more

about your business than you know

>> because Slackbot is reading stuff that

>> you know, nobody knew what was happening

and like I'm using that myself, but I

can then connect it into other things.

So, I have the ability to go into

Salesforce and Google and everything.

And so, when I'm on Slackbot, I can ask

it any question about my company. What

are my top five deals? What am do what

are my employees upset about? What are

the top three things I need to focus on?

And then boom, I get the information

because it has the data.

>> I think you should really look at SL

making Slack more open and cheaper and

getting more of that context because

there are limitations in terms of

getting your data out based on like

which plan you're on. It's just too

convoluted. But once I upgraded to a

higher plan and you know it's whatever 6

12 18k for our small company I was able

to get more and more context to my

openclaw plexity computer and claude we

and we're testing all of those and today

I wrote literally before I got on the

show a new prompt that is every two

hours in our Slack tell me what

decisions are being made who's making

those decisions um and what you would

handicap those decisions. If you were my

chief of staff, if you were a CEO or if

you were a board member and I created

personas to now evaluate decision-

making going on just

>> I have to show you the new version of

Slack. You're going to love it, Jason.

And you know that open AI and

enthropping and every AI company is

standardized on Slack. Yes.

>> And by the way, and our core sales cloud

and service clouds as well.

>> So I got to show you what we're doing.

Yeah.

So fun.

>> What's your advice to let's say you were

running a software company that was like

before the AI wave and you're private,

right? There's a bunch of these

companies that were supposed to go

public, didn't go public. What should

they do? Like what do those boards do?

What

>> they here's some Kleenex for them for

all their tears

>> because they're I mean I talked to these

CEOs. They're crying. What my market

cap? I'm not getting paid for my work.

Guys, grow up. You know, that's what I

love about the public markets. They

rationalize everything all the time. So

>> great, be in the public markets. You

want to be in a private market. Your

valuation is fantasy land until

somebody's actually going to pay you. So

I just tell them, hey, you got to focus

on your revenue, focus on your

customers, focus on your cash flow,

focus on your profitability, focus on

your innovation. How are you going to

add value to your customers? That's

what's really truly important.

>> Freeberg, any thoughts from you? We're

doing a big Salesforce implementation at

O'Hollow and I I would say that one of

my observations over the last six months

because we've talked a lot about using

these generative tools is we've kind of

dropped all the vertical software but

we're doubling down our investment in

horizontal tools. So like we're

investing heavily in these platform

capabilities that then we're able to

build apps and workflows on top of them

that are specific to our business rather

than try and buy an offtheshelf app or

workflow tool. So I think that there's

kind of a really interesting moment

right now where we talked about this

last time you could kind of discern

between founder and non-founder

enterprise software. I also think that

there's this kind of vertical horizontal

shift where they're kind of trading the

same right now but you could probably

break them. You could break that trade.

So, I think there's probably a good

arbitrage there.

>> I think everyone who wants to sell those

potato seeds, you know, is going to need

>> some tools to sell them. But the thing

that's kind of cool is, you know, we

have 15,000 salespeople now. So, they're

out there selling these products like

Slack and selling to David and so forth.

But here's the thing that's interesting.

In the last 27 years, we calculated

somewhere between 20 to 30 million

people, we didn't call back. We did not

call them back

>> because we didn't have the people to do

it. So just this week I called back

50,000 people, you know, just through

agents so I can qualify. I just bought a

company called qualified so I can

qualify the agents, call people back the

BDR, the SDR function. I can go

outbound. I can do things I could never

do before. That is made possible by this

AI automation linking it then to the

apps. You can go to another level.

Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. I want to get

everybody's take on this. Open AAI in a

breaking news story is considering suing

Apple over their Chat GPT partnership.

As we all know, two years ago, Apple and

Open AAI announced Chat GPT would

integrate into Siri, iOS, MacOSS. But

according to Bloomberg, the deal has

gone so poorly for OpenAI that they

might sue Apple for breach of contract.

Here are OpenAI's gripes. Apple chat GPT

integration within Siri requires users

to specifically say chat GPT to get

results. We probably all experienced

this if we haven't given up on Siri,

which is the worst personal assistant

ever created. Uh Apple hasn't it's

discretionad to the highest level. Just

discretad with this product. How do you

get there first and you remain worst?

Apple hasn't promoted the integration at

all and users are still overwhelmingly

going to the standalone chat GPT app or

others. OpenAI

expected billions of subscription

revenue from the deal and it hasn't come

to fruition. According to Bloomberg,

Apple's side of the story is, hey, they

have concerns about Open AI's privacy

practices. Maybe they don't trust the

guy in charge over there, which was a

reoccurring theme in the lawsuit. And

they're annoyed that OpenAI, and here is

the palace entry, they're upset that

OpenAI is building hardware to compete

with Apple and that they recruited their

design guru, Johnny IV.

Mark Beni off, you know, the players.

What is going on here? Yeah,

>> you got to trust Sam Alman and Open AI.

I love him. But let's just upscale this

conversation just one second. Listen,

what has happened? What happened is we

have these LLMs. They starting to come

out come out. Every company's kind of

chosen a slightly different path. You

had Elon, he went out, he had Grock and

he kind of started building these

companions and sex bots and all this

kind of stuff going on. And that was a

huge focus of his, the sexbot focus.

Then you kind of had OpenAI and they

were doing the Sora video thing and

they're also doing ad networks and crazy

stuff like that. Then you had Gemini and

they had the Nano Banana and then

finally you've got Enthropic and they go

we don't know about those sex bots and

we don't know about Nano Banana but

we're going to do coding agents. And it

turned out Enthropic was right. And all

of a sudden the rocket ship took off and

now everybody's like, "Whoa, where did

Enthropic go?" Oh, whoa, they're way up

there. And then they're all like, "Where

are all they going to do coding agents

to?" And now they're all resetting and

kind of hitting their buttons and going,

"Coding agents. Everybody focus, focus.

Kill Sarah, kill this. Get rid of that.

Sex bots off." You know, cursor on.

Yeah. And that's where we are right now.

And so everybody, look, this is what's

cool about right now is that everybody,

it's such a dynamic moment in our

industry. It's so exciting that people

have to pivot and you have to be ready

to focus and refocus and constantly ask

the question like, "What do you want

right now?" And everyone is changing

what they really want. And if you looked

at where everybody was a year ago and

where they are now, they're in a totally

different place cuz we all know that

when Enthropic 46 hit, boom, everyone

could code in their companies. And

before that, they really couldn't. It

was a little bit of a productivity

improvement, but not as much as we

wanted. Now everybody sees this and

goes, "Wow, this is unbelievable." We're

even working on technology inside Slack

to make it easier for everybody to code.

So I think it's going to be really

>> breaking news. Breaking news there.

>> You're going to see some cool stuff with

Slack and Code. I'm not ready to talk

about it yet, but there's no question

that uh we are in a new moment in

coding. I mean Chamas got a whole

company around it. A lot of people have

companies around it. There's going to be

before coding was all about humans and

like that's where I started. I was 15

years old, Berlin game high school on

hands-on keyboard writing video games,

you know, basic 68,000 6502,

you know. No, no, now it's like

everyone.

>> How's that changed your org? Is it the

product manager, the developer, or the

UX designer?

>> The creator, or did it all blend into

one blended? And who wins? Who wins?

It's all blended together. And by the

way, to to Mark's point, the hands-on

keyboard thing, you know, most of our

engineers just speak. They So it's like

And so, you know, one of our guys just

has a foot button operated thing and it

just like

that,

>> too. Yeah. Whisper. That's all they do.

Flow plus.

>> It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper

flow and talking. There is no cans on

keyboard anymore.

>> All right. So, let's get back to this

story here.

>> We're going for dolphin flow at

Salesforce.

>> Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you.

Aalo. Um, Freeberg, two questions. One,

now that Sam has shut down the sex

spots, how are you filling that void?

And then number two,

thank you, Jama.

And number two, what's your take on the

strained relationship here between

OpenAI and the world and specifically

the Apple world?

>> I don't know what to tell you. This that

there doesn't seem to be a lot of

long-term partnerships with Open AI.

That's a very uh generous way to say it.

What should Apple do? Should they just

go back to the loving arms of Google

where they made a hundred billion

dollars being partners with them on the

search default your alma

>> I don't know what to tell I mean look at

the end of the day I think Google has a

real opportunity to integrate a Gemini

assistant into all of your personal

information and Gemini and calendar

>> your Google drive your Google photos

where all of your personal information

sits it can become your your point of

calendaring your point of asking it

questions about your personal

Hey, when did I email this person, etc.

And in the enterprise context, I think

that's also up for grabs with G Suite.

And so, Google has a real chance to kind

of own that assistant interface. Maybe

Salesforce does too, Mark. Apple

obviously has an embedded install piece.

How many people are using Apple services

for doing all of their mail, for

calendaring,

for storing their information? I think a

good number.

>> Yeah. So that may end up becoming kind

of the way that the world silos out is

like you'll have an assistant, but the

assistant for it to be truly useful to

you individually, it has to have access

to all of your information. Whether it's

in an enterprise context or a personal

context, Apple is probably going to need

to either build their own or white label

with a partner, could be anthropic,

could be someone else

>> to get this to really work. But but

they're going to be up against a

formidable competitor is my point

because I think Google Assistant is

going to end up be being kind of a real

kick-ass product once they get this

flywheel going. Apple has the clearest

path to becoming, you know, a top two or

three player in AI simply by buying

something like Perplexity or Mistrol or

or or some AI lab and then using their

hardware footprint, which is

extraordinary. I just got this MacBook

with 48 gigs of RAM on it with an M5. It

is unbelievable. And the new ones with

the the Studio coming out are going to

have a terabyte of RAM. they are going

to have a clear path to maintaining your

privacy running local models and that's

going to solve people's problems. It's

going to be very easy to index all your

images without giving the data to OpenAI

which nobody trusts or giving it to

Gemini. And that's I think a big part of

why they picked the current CEO is

because he's an engineer and

hardwarebased. I I think the future of

this is going to be local models running

on extraordinary desktop hardware. And

if you have employees on this level of

hardware running these models local like

I have started to do, they become 10

times more valuable than the employees

not running it. I I think Apple's my

choice for the next year.

>> I'm not a huge believer in these local

models. And the the only reason why is I

think you want persistence. You have

multiple devices. You have multiple

persona. You're using a web browser in

one instance. You're using a different

computer at home in the other. And the

idea that you don't have persistence

that follows you around in 2026, I think

is a breaking feature. So, I think

you're not going to lug around a 5B

MacBook Pro everywhere you go so that

you can get knowledge. Oh, wait. You're

asking, "Oh, wait. I got a diagnosis

from my doctor. Hold on a second."

>> I don't think that's

the game on the field. The game on the

field though is

>> you will uh be able to use iCloud for

this as well. So, it's going to be, you

know, effortlessly.

>> So, well, look, give me your opinion on

this. I think the thing that you're

assuming is that these form factors

don't need to change. And I just wonder

like, don't we have an iPhone moment

that we're just all going to be

surprised by where somebody shows up and

they're like this thing and you're like,

"Oh my god, that's the thing." Do do you

know what I mean? like yeah that that's

I

>> there's enough ingredients here where

somebody's going to cook something up

and then you have to think about Jason

the sunk cost of like you know look

Apple is incredible

but there that's the product of 40 years

30 years of meticulous process

optimization

what do you do if the form factor is

totally different and the nature of the

device is different how do you pivot

that organization

>> you're hitting on something very

important and it dovetales with another

story on the docket mirror Mrage

released thinking machines new real time

world

>> that was impressive

>> and this is super impressive and Apple

at the same time has patented putting

cameras into your AirPods so you're

right and then I use this plug pin I've

talked about it before

>> these persistent hardware devices the

watch the earpieces are going to know

your entire reality they're going to

monitor your entire desktop and this is

going to lead to a a use of tokens that

would be a thousand times what user

business users are currently using

because the way mirror's and we should

have her on the pod or at one of our

events. The way her model works

Freedberg is it's watching your desktop.

It's listening to all the voices and

then it's watching your webcam all at

the same time and every 200 milliseconds

it's uploading it to two different

models. One is deep thinking and looking

backwards, you know, at a maybe a 30-

secondond clip and the other one's in

real time. that will 1,000x the need for

tokens if people are doing this for 8

hours a day cuz it's not the turnbased

here's my latest prompt here's my

question I got a response it's in real

time always querying an LLM which is

going to require a hardware upgrade to

the average desktop Mark Beni off what

are your thoughts on this brave new

world

>> it's one small step for man one giant

leap towards AGI I think that you said

really well. I mean the we are in the

we've been so kind of think that LLM is

the beall end all. We're going to go to

AGI. I don't really understand how large

language models which are only about

language and words and we know how it

works. It's one word one word therefore

the next word is this is going to get us

to where we want to go to which is

minority report or um

>> agreed

>> all the science fiction movies that

we've seen. But what we saw and and I

think Jason you'd really articulated

that super well by the way multiensory

models and multiensory models. Well,

here's a good one. Oh yeah, me. I'm a

multiensory model in a biological

computer. I'm a multiensory model. I've

got these eyes, ears, mouth, you know,

work. Sometimes some brain, heart,

whatever. And some other things going on

too that I don't even understand. And

it's all running in this biological

computer. I'm not exactly a large

language model, though I do have one.

sometimes. So I would say that

multi-ensory models are the next big

wave for AI and then but we're still not

at AGI at that point. But those demos

like the demo of that model that was

pretty everyone should see like that was

pretty awesome. And then I think we can

kind of say hm where are we now on this

on the path? But I think every model

company is kind of go hold on pivot you

know again pivot like saying pivot

everybody's pivoting and you're going to

have to pick your poison and where where

are you going next you know and you

can't do everything you can't

>> you said you were spending 300 million

on tokens with anthropic. Now imagine

what this would do to an average, you

know, employee if they needed a thousand

times the tokens they have now. So

instead of spending 150k in tokens, you

got to spend, you know, a hundred

million. But you have

>> I don't think that's true. I I don't

think that that I think we're getting

brainwashed on that.

>> Okay. So explain.

>> I think that's a mistake to think that

way. See, I think we are wasting a lot

of these tokens. So my coding here's my

I think I convince you this. So here's a

here we're using $300 million of

enthropic this year and we're coding

we're coding we're coding right the vast

majority of those tokens don't need to

go to enthropic there needs to be some

intermediary layer layer that's saying

oh oh that one has to go to enthropic

but these ones can handle by smaller

models

that can route it to the most affordable

for the job it's such an early moment

you know it's an early moment and you're

and I want to connect back to what you

said before which was brilliant Jason

which because the importance of the edge

because the edge and the cloud are going

to come together. Okay. And yes, you're

going to have more distributed

intelligence. It's going to work

together. That's going to makes a ton of

sense what you said. What Chama said was

also completely right. You were both

right. Then you combine it to this idea.

Let's put it together where we're going.

Yes, we're going to have more

distributed intelligence. We're going to

have intelligence on the edge. We're

going to have multiensory models. And

yes, you're going to do coding. And it's

going to be more efficient though. So to

think that it's going to be always so

expensive, that is just the moment of

time that we're at right now. And I

think there's going to be a hot new

company that's going to come along and

say this. I'm going to sit between you

and Anthropic and Open AAI and I'm going

to make sure that they you only need

their tokens when you actually need

them.

>> And that is not really where we are

right now.

>> Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Like you're like%

>> it's like oh I need a shower and Okay,

great. All the water. No, no, no. I just

need some water. I don't need all the

water.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> All right. Listen, we uh have two final

topics here. We could talk about

anthropic unrolling the dark SPVS and

the impact that has on the market. Or we

can go to everybody's favorite science

corner.

>> Well, do both. Just do a quick uh around

the around the neighborhood.

>> Yeah. Okay. Lightning round on uh we'll

do SPVS last. Freeberg, what do you got

in Science Corner? Everybody, all the

all the Freedberg fans are just

destroyed when we skip it. So, let's

give

>> a good one. Mark, do you like Science

Corner? No, you do.

>> I do.

>> Come on. Yeah.

>> Only the oceans.

>> Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon

Valley. He loves it all and he wants to

hear more.

>> Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we

become half as good as you?

>> I'm not a good sal. I'm like a I'm a a

geek.

>> You are, but you know how to

>> call it a Tony Robbins seminar. Let's

go. Walk over the coals together. Let's

roll.

>> We're all going to Tony. Put out the

coals. We're walking across them.

>> Nick, let's pull up the first chart.

This science corner is about the dreaded

El Nino season that is coming up. And so

this is a forecast for sea surface

temperature anomalies. And basically

what this means is that the ocean at

this point has heated up so much that

there's now a forecast on ocean

temperatures that are going to exceed

anything we have seen in recent history.

So we're kind of looking at temperatures

that might be 4° above normal. That

doesn't sound like a lot, but let's just

look at this image. That top image is

the sea surface temperature anomaly.

That means how different the sea surface

or the the ocean temperatures are. Why

does that matter? And this is compared

to 1877 when we had the biggest El Nino

year ever. And I'll explain what that

means in a moment. But why does this all

matter? The reason is the oceans are the

battery of weather. What happens at one

part of the year is that the oceans

absorb heat energy and absorb absorb

absorb gets hotter and hotter and hotter

and then that heat energy is released

into the atmosphere and then the

atmosphere drives the weather events

that happen all over the world and it

becomes somewhat predictable that you

can estimate what the weather over the

next year is going to be like based on

how the temperatures are sitting in the

ocean today. And at this point there is

so much excess energy stored up in the

oceans. I'll give you guys a statistic.

It's about 11 million terowatt hours.

The whole planet Earth uses 25,000

terowatt hours in a year. So 11 million

extra terowatt hours of energy is

currently stored up. That's 500 years

worth of human energy in this ocean. And

over the next few months, that energy is

going to be released into the

atmosphere. And that will absolutely 99%

confidence that will make the upcoming

year the hottest year on record by far

that humans have ever experienced or at

least that we've experienced in recent

history where we didn't have data going

going back a long time. It changes the

trade winds which changes how a lot of

the weather evolves from a normal

season. It changes the moisture in the

atmosphere in certain parts of the

world. And I'll just give you some

highlights of what this means. Over the

coming year, there will be major

atmospheric river events where you just

get water dumped on you in the southwest

in California and the Gulf Coast. You'll

have very low snowfall and very high

heat waves in the northern part of the

US going up to Canada. You guys remember

all those fires a couple years ago in

Canada. Interior regions of the US like

in Phoenix and and so on. They're

already seeing temperatures at 106

degrees in May. A super El Nino like is

forecasted for this year could extend

that duration of these heat domes which

could create temperatures that we've

never seen in those areas. Southern

Argentina, Chile, Brazil could see

record shattering heat waves. And this

is where things start to get a little

nasty because when that happens, the

crops start to fail. And in many parts

of the world, Brazil, India, Australia,

these are critical uh local consumption

for large populations, but also major a

export markets. So if Brazil's crop

fails, if Australia's wheat crop fails,

Australia's wheat crop goes to places

like Indonesia and the Philippines.

Hundreds of millions of people depend on

that that wheat crop. Hundreds of

millions of people depend on the exports

out of Brazil. Brazil is the world's

largest a exporter. And the scariest one

of all is if the monsoons fail, which is

now a very high probability event in

India. 150 million farmers in India that

depend on their agricultural output or

they don't make any money, they can't

survive. and one and a half billion

people that depend on that food. So the

importance of this El Nino event goes

beyond just like an interesting weather

anecdote. But if you think about the

second and third effects of this over

the next year, you could see energy

prices spiking and electricity spiking

and the grid failing in parts of the

southwest, commodity prices spiking all

over the world. And then you would see

places like uh India, the Philippines,

Vietnam starting to face some sort of

unrest if there isn't enough food supply

that's coming into those markets. And

then the question in India is a really

nasty one because there isn't a really

good solution. India and markets like it

that are significantly dependent uh on

having their monsoon event but also are

currently facing a shortage of nitrogen

based fertilizer because of the crisis

with Iran and the straight of Hormuz

which we've talked about as a double

whammy. So over the next year in South

Asia you could see a calorie deficit and

a major kind of economic crisis that

starts to emerge. So, this El Nino

event, I just wanted to kind of bring it

up as an interesting science corner

because the data now seems pretty

confirmed that over the next few months,

we're going to have this record-breaking

El Nino and these are the sorts of

consequences that will play out over the

next year.

>> This is scary. God damn. What do

you do about the the food problem?

That's a big problem.

>> That's a big problem. And this is the

commodity markets are going wild for

this right now.

>> Did this did this happen the last time

we had an El Nino?

>> Yes. So when we have El Ninos, there's a

severity of these sorts of events

happening.

>> No, I mean, did we have a food shortage

problem in the last El Nino?

>> Oh, yeah. When we have El Ninos, there's

food shortages that come out of

Australia, Brazil. You see these events.

That's a regular part of the the thing.

The problem this year is the index is so

off the charts. It is so far beyond

anything we've seen and it's correlated

obviously with the severity that it

triggers a crisis that may be, you know,

really difficult to manage in a lot of

places. So the US is a net a exporter.

So from a US perspective, our big issues

to worry about are the fire season. By

the way, this does decrease Atlantic

hurricanes. You're going to have fewer

hurricanes this year in the uh in the

south, but you know, you have these kind

of major storm events that happen in

California, the heat waves, electricity

prices. We're probably more stable than

other parts of the world. But think

about the Brazil, the a export market is

such a significant part of the economy

and Brazil has a debt problem that this

could end up becoming an economic

problem in some parts of the world in

including Brazil. So the the commodity

markets are trading this El Nino event

pretty actively right now. It's become

kind of a focal area for a lot of folks

in in commodity markets. Can your super

seeds help or no?

>> That's a longer term solution. But I

mean look, we're like at the end of the

day having um this actually a good

point, but having genetics a crop

genetics that can adapt to a more

rapidly changing climate is going to be

critical over the next couple of

decades. Uh that's a big kind of macro

for

>> another part of this Freedberg that as

certain places heat up they actually

become viable places to put crops i.e.