You are the single most requested guest.

>> And let me tell you, this has not been

easy because we went to some hard

places. But I don't think we'll ever

talk about anything more important than

this. Cuz it's not fear that gets in the

way of us being brave with our lives and

our [music] work. It's the armor that we

reach for to self-protect when we're

afraid. And how [music] that armor moves

us away from love, connection, and our

values. [music] And the hardest work is

being aware of what is my armor when I'm

afraid. Is that automatic?

>> Oh, no. It's a training.

>> So, let's start with that. Then,

>> Bnee Brown is an icon whose worldleading

research in shame, vulnerability, and

connection

>> has inspired [music] companies like

Pixar, Google, and the US special forces

>> to build stronger leaders and help the

everyday person unlock their full

potential.

>> Ready?

>> Is vulnerability important?

>> It is if we want to be brave with our

lives. But we were raised to believe

that vulnerability is weakness. [music]

Like in my family, we were allowed

anger, but sad was not an option. You

needed to be tough. And so when I get

scared, when I [music] feel anxious,

disappointed, I'm just angry. And so

when you're raised without

vulnerability, it'll put you in

jeopardy. Like, you want to know what

vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so

vulnerable [music] that people choose to

live disappointed rather than to get

excited about something and risk getting

sucker punched by disappointment. Like,

there is no courage without

vulnerability because courage is the

willingness to show up and be allin when

you cannot predict the outcome.

>> Wow. I've never thought about that

before. But you can develop skills.

>> Megan's four steps to courage.

>> Yes. We've taken 165,000 people through

this work. That included how to build

trust.

>> And I've heard about your marble jar

theory. Could you explain to me what

your marble jar look how excited you

are?

>> I know.

>> So this is how we teach trust to the

most senior leaders in [music] Fortune

100 companies. It's awesome.

>> I see messages all the time in the

comment section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way, you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you, [music]

[singing]

>> Renee.

In order to um understand all the work

that you have done and the perspective

that you have on the world and also who

you are as a anomaly in many respects, I

think it's probably important that I

understand your earliest context, where

you've come from, what shaped you.

>> I'm stuck on an am I a am I an anomaly?

>> I of course you're an anomaly. Of course

you're an anomaly. That that should be

of no surprise to you. I mean, if you

look at your outcomes, your outcomes are

anomalous. So, one would assume that

there's some form [snorts] of something

that made you an anomaly.

I would say that

I'm a fifth generation Texan.

I

came from a fair amount of dysfunction.

Parents doing the best they could

with what they knew.

both coming from really really really

tough upbringings that included you know

poverty

addiction and so probably a lot of the

stereotypes you would think about fifth

generation Texan tough don't cry we were

allowed a very small continuum of

emotions were approval you know or

approved which were pissed off or okay

like anger was okay but no you couldn't

be sad really or vulnerability was not a

thing. Vulnerability was weakness and

scary and puts you in jeopardy. I felt

like a real outsider at home and in

school, but I was really good at reading

people, reading situations. I think my I

think a therapist somewhere along the

way said, "Yes, that's hypervigilance.

>> You're hypervigilant.

You know, I can see everything around

me. I know everything's going on. I can

connect things very quickly that other

people don't see." And there was

laughter and there was love.

But there was a ton of unpredictability.

>> I was going to say, isn't that typically

what creates hypervigilance is some kind

of need to be that aware when you're

young?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think yes, being

funloving

was very valued in my family and being

tough. These were the values. These are

these are on the parental scorecard.

>> This is what got you an A. if you're

fun, easy, you can, you know, shoot

straight, spit far, fish well, like

really drive fast. And so those things

were very valued. Athleticism was very

valued.

Um,

but those fun things could turn really

hard very quickly.

There was a big pause there. 4 second

pause as you

>> Yeah. I could just picture it like it's

fun until

It's fun until you've had a parent eject

e ejected from a game for being so hard.

>> And that was your father.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, he was really hard then if he was

ejected from a game.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> There's a photo I saw of you and your

siblings where you're clutching your

siblings and I think you referred to it

as you could see there was a certain

fear in your eyes. Do you know the photo

I'm referring to? Am I on a couch?

>> You're on a couch.

>> Like a yellow velour couch like from the

70s.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> I think about that picture. I like that

picture. But there was definitely I

definitely had a protector role as the

oldest. I mean code named sister

superior. It was jokingly but it wasn't

joking. Like if things got hard between

my parents and they would get in

volatile fights, I would go get all my

siblings, put them in my room. I'd go

downstairs and handle it, you know? Like

I was definitely the protector.

physically volatile fights

>> um on occasion but more emotionally

volatile.

>> Screaming and shouting. Yeah.

>> Same with my parents.

>> Yeah. Just loud.

>> There's a background in my whole house

for my whole childhood was just

screaming.

>> There was a Yeah, we had a lot of

screaming and there's a certain like if

you grew up with screaming, hearing

screaming through a wall,

>> you [clears throat] know that sound.

>> Mhm.

>> Do you hear that sound?

>> Of course. Yeah. Oh my god. It was my

whole childhood. Yeah.

>> Was that seven days of screaming?

>> Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I

don't like to hear that about your

childhood and I don't like to know that

about my childhood, but there was a lot

of screaming. And so, I think

hypervigilant,

protective,

responsible

with a dose of

be very [ __ ] careful

because

I will protect my siblings.

And and how did that change your model

of love as a young person? It must have

been because I mean I obviously feel the

same way about about my situation. And

um I think the lesson I learned was that

love was like a prison cuz it was my mom

doing the shouting and my dad was the

prisoner and he wouldn't respond. So

this you've got a woman shouting at him

for six seven hours a day and him sat

there like he's a like an inanimate

object looking at the screen. And I

remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So, if I

get in a relationship when I'm older,

then I'm going to be a prisoner to a

woman. Okay? Doesn't sound doesn't sound

appealing. And if you move to a

different room, you'd follow him. So,

I avoided relationships like the [ __ ]

plague.

I did well until about 27.

[clears throat]

>> And then what?

>> And then someone got over the wall and

corrected some of the evidence.

>> They got over the wall.

>> She got over the wall somehow.

>> Yeah. Steve got over the wall. Damn it.

That's your partner, not me. Just for

context.

>> No, NOT YEAH. NOT YOU. [laughter]

ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB

right now. Um, you're like you've

crossed a piranha filled moat that I

like. Um, but the drawbridge is like I'm

see I'm just see I'm going to see my

Steve my Steve definitely

definitely got over the wall.

Um, but it was like game game recognizes

game. He had a wall.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah. Uh, and so we had long

conversations about our walls and and

slowly through those conversations. We

just

those walls crumbled with each other and

we've been together now for 38 years.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Um, the hardest thing I've ever

done in my life

bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.

>> When I started dating, Steve,

>> well, when we got married, six months

after we got married, this is, you know,

you you said for you love was going to

be being a prisoner. Mhm.

>> And having to just shut down to survive.

>> Mhm.

>> Right.

>> Run away.

>> Run away. Right.

>> Don't confront it. No conversations now.

>> No.

>> Um, for me, 6 months after we were

married, I went to go see a therapist

and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got

to get out of this marriage." And we had

dated off and on for 7 years before we

got married. And I said, "I got to get

out." And she said, "I could th this is

hard. I I could see how this is not

working." And I was like, I had a twinge

of defensiveness about Steve. And I

said, 'What do you mean? And she said,

he likes you so much more than you like

you. It must be terrible.

It's like, [ __ ] you, man. You're fired.

[laughter]

I was like, I am so

I thought, what? That's what I do. So if

you I'm going to give you one of my

tells. If I do a really highpitched what

that means I'm that means I'm looking

for my purse and I'm get I know where

the door is. Um I I I just kept thinking

what what do you mean? He said it's got

it's got to be very com uncomfortable to

be with someone who sees you and really

knows you and loves you so much when you

have not found a way to see you and love

you so much. It's got to be

disconcerting.

What an [ __ ] man. like, wow. And it

was true. I had to get to this point

where I was like, I maybe I should like

me as much as he likes me and then make

a better decision about whether this is

going to work or not.

When you grow up

and pissed off or shut down are your two

emotional opportunities. Like there, you

know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write

about 87 emotions that I think are

important to understand because the

limits of our language are the limits of

our world.

When you have two buckets,

then everything must go in those. And in

fact, in our research over the last 15

years, we found the average person can

accurately identify and name three

emotions. Happy, sad, pissed off.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> And so in my family, sad was not an

option. That was weakness. So you could

be pissed or okay. So when I get scared,

when I feel grief, when I'm anxious,

when I feel disappointment, when I feel

anguish,

I'm just angry.

There's two sort of outstanding question

marks in my head and they might be the

same answer, but it's you said earlier

on that you didn't fit in at school or

at home, and I didn't understand why you

didn't fit in at school or at home. And

then the other thing that's still a

question mark in my head is the

therapist said to you that you well

asserted that you didn't like yourself

as much as he liked you. And I wasn't

clear on what made you not like

yourself.

>> I wanted out of where I was raised. I

wanted to leave everything I knew. And

so I always felt like an outsider. I

didn't

didn't want to do I mean I wasn't

popular. I wasn't dating a quarterback.

That was a dream that my my parents and

their parents and their parents, you

know, you were you were a bearcadet and

you dated a quarterback and you got a

farm. So at I felt not cute, not

popular, not understood.

And then at home,

I wasn't easygoing.

I was an I was anxious.

and and always ready.

>> And the point about self-esteem, which

the therapist sort of highlighted about

not liking oneself as much as Steve

liked you, where did that come from or

is that related in some way?

>> Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very

big heaping dose of shame.

>> Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish

something or you don't accomplish

something, you're made to feel bad about

it.

>> Yeah.

And a ton of it was about appearance,

being fun.

>> Appearance.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, big blonde

hair with hot rollers. The higher the

hair, the closer to God. You needed to

be tough and strong and throw on a

baseball cap and get somewhere really

quick, lowmaintenance,

and you needed to be a beauty pageant

queen.

Do you remember them ever being critical

of your appearance in a way that has

stayed with you?

>> I mean, I guess.

>> I mean, I think not just them. I mean,

like I think

having young girls and young women,

keeping them

from developing threats to their

self-esteem

is not just a parental thing. It's like

it's like asking them not to breathe

because the air is poison. Like it's

like every message from everywhere, you

know, the fashion magazines, you'd read

them and you think, "Wow,

I don't I don't look like this. How am I

going to look like this?" You know, and

you'd lather yourself up with baby oil

and you put lemon juice in your hair.

You put tin foil under your chin, get as

much sun cancer as you could cuz we

didn't know, you know, like you you'd we

all wore jeans that you had to put on

with pliers with for the zipper cuz they

were so tight. appearance mattered. This

is Texas, baby.

>> You go off to university eventually, and

not a straight line, but eventually you

get into university.

>> Not a straight line.

>> That's the sweetest thing you've said to

me. Um, I graduated from college when I

was 29.

>> Wow.

>> So, you become a research professor in

2001 [clears throat]

and you've been a research professor and

many more things um, ever since then.

You get your PhD in social work at the

University of Houston, Texas between 96

and 2002. And really for the last couple

of decades, you've focused on research,

understanding people. Obviously, there's

so many more strings to your bow in

terms of like media and podcasting and

authorship, but over those since 2001,

we're in 2025 now, just over two

decades. My first question is um how has

your perspective on how has the world

changed in those last two decades in

your view?

Unions would say before any

great progression

there is a regression

and I think that

when you look at various admin I know

you have a very global audience when you

look at administrations

political administrations across the

world and you look at

how power is being used right now

it will tell you a lot about what

they're afraid of.

>> What What is that face? We're gonna have

to pause it.

>> I was thinking about a conversation I

had recently with my my best friends. It

must have been this weekend. Yeah, it

was this weekend cuz it was my friend's

birthday in Manchester, the UK. So, we

flew in. Um and we had a conversation

about how the leading political

narrative at the moment, this might be

adjacent to what you were saying, but

it's the way I interpreted it. The

leading political narrative at the

moment that seems to be getting people

elected is if you say those people with

that skin color are the reason for the

pain and anguish in your life. It's

actually the people below you that are

coming over the border or crossing the

the English Channel on dingies that are

ruining your life. And it seems to be

like a really effective narrative to

earn power both in the US and the UK.

like the central narrative that is

swaying elections it seems at the moment

in the UK and the US is those brown

people on that boat or coming over the

border are the reason for the pain in

your life and it seems to work and that

seems to be the thing getting power so

that's kind of what ran through my head

when I had this idea of like power and

what you're scared of actually think I

inverted it to if I can tell you what to

be scared of or find the thing you might

be scared of or whatever then I get

power but maybe it goes the other way

too

>> I don't think we'll ever talk about

anything more important than this to be

honest with you that's Why I thought

your response was so interesting cuz you

you you made if I was going to like do

the text box above your face

>> it would have said well holy [ __ ] that's

interesting because

>> when when you use power especially power

over because there's multiple kinds of

power. There's power with into and power

within. So people that use power within

to and power within work from a belief

system that's completely different. We

believe that power is infinite and can

grow when shared. People who use power

over work from a belief system that

power is finite like pizza and if I give

you any I have a deficit. So it's got to

be hoarded and protected and not shared.

Power over

is really important to understand

because when people are using power

over, they're definitely letting you

know what they're afraid of because

that's what they're focused on and

they're tapping into. And I think this

is absolutely true. If you give people

someone to dislike

and blame for their pain

and they look different than the people

who are voting, you [clears throat] will

win a 100 times out of 100.

If you say, "I see your pain." I can

tell you exactly the source of it and I

can fix this for you.

>> And [clears throat] the source of it is

going to be easy to see. You're not

going to see yourself in them. M

>> so that narrative that you are talking

about it is a full circle. People in

power use power to address issues that

they're afraid of. They gain power by

leveraging fear and giving people an

enemy.

That's how this works. It works like

this. I mean I spend 95% of my time in

organizations

working with seauite leaders and senior

leaders. This this is how it works in

organizations. how it works in

political, you know, how it works in

faith communities. This is how power

works in general. So power over is a

very specific kind of power. And it's

especially dangerous because in order to

maintain it,

you have to engage in periodic bouts of

cruelty towards vulnerable populations.

You have to remind people what you're

capable of.

>> So there's four types of power you you

you speak about in um

>> Damn, [clears throat] you have that in

your notes

>> in Strong Ground. Yes.

>> Well, why are you surprised?

>> I don't know.

>> There's four types of power in

leadership you speak about. There's the

power over, which is controlling or

exploiting others. Power with finding

common ground and building collective

strength. Power two, which is giving

others agency and recognizing their

potential. And power within, which is

honoring differences and selfworth.

So as a leader of a business, if I want

to be successful, are you telling me

that I need to stay away from power over

and adopt another power within this list

of four?

>> Yeah. I think what we've seen be very

successful over time is power with,

power to, and power within. So

collaborative power, co-creation power,

self-awareness,

metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing

how you think and learn. So power with

and power too. Power over is

excruciatingly difficult to maintain.

We're not neurobiologically

hardwired

to stay in fear for very long.

So if I work for you, if I work for you

and you're using power over to lead me,

you're threatening me with my job,

you're threatening me with consequences,

you're threatening me with demotion,

one of two things is going to happen for

me neurobiologically. I am either going

to

just become numb to it. It's not it's

not going to be able you're not going to

maintain I can't maintain that constant

level of fear. just too demanding,

[snorts] just physically demanding. Or I

might get hyper

normalized. I might just like this is

this is what I work in. This is like

crazy. This is it, you know? But every

now and then, you're going to have to do

something that demonstrates to me how

chaotic and cruel you can actually be.

Like, you're going to have to engage in

periodic acts of cruelty to remind me

that the fear is real and to put me back

in it. And so one of the things you're

seeing right now, I mean, like we in in

the US,

the deportation and immigration issues.

This is not a president that has, you

know, tightened his belt on immigration

more than other previous presidents, but

we've never seen masked people grabbing

people off the street while children

hold on to their legs screaming, "Mom,

mom, mom." We we we've never seen that

before, right? But we've had other

presidents

probably exceed

the deportation numbers that we're

seeing, but we've never seen that level

of cruelty and display. That is a real

display of cruelty as a reminder of who

who holds power and who does not.

>> It also makes me think of relationships

when you're talking about, you know, how

people are controlled with power over. A

lot of people talk about like sort of

narcissistic relationships or abusive

relationships where

they don't feel like they can leave or

you know they don't leave and they end

up becoming acclimatized to the

treatment.

>> I'm a big systems theory. I'm a systems

theory person. I think in systems theory

I was trained in systems theory. I think

if you don't understand system systems

theory, at least if you're leading an

organization right now, you're going to

fall behind because

the complexity inside and outside of

organizations is such that we need a

framework to understand how all of these

individual systems are bumping up

against each other. Like you you

probably bump up against

a hundred systems a day, right?

>> Yeah. And so what I would imagine the

story I would make up about your success

because this is true of any systems

theory is in order for systems to thrive

and grow,

they have to keep permeable boundaries.

Meaning they have to allow feedback to

flow in and out from other systems

[clears throat]

>> to be aware. So I'm just going to give

you a very good example. I'm very

excited about the female

the experts you had on

>> Mhm.

>> around menopause

women's life. I mean, I'm so excited

about that.

>> Like, just to be honest with you, like

Mary Cla is my doctor.

>> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Haver. So, um,

what is interesting is the systems that

just that podcast bumps up against,

you know, and the systems that would be

sending feedback that, hey, this is not

for me. I'm not clicking on this. I I

I've shared that first one with a

hundred people, [laughter]

>> you know, because there's a reality to

our lives that is uncomfortable for

people, but those are your partners and

your moms and your, you know, and your

bosses and it's real. And I can

guarantee if this was happening with

dudes,

>> yeah,

>> like it'd be a gajillion dollar whatever

over a trillion gajillion, I don't know.

Um, but just thinking about that one

podcast and the systems that you're

touching, health, women's issues, um,

family systems are affected. Like that

podcast hits 20 systems that I can think

of in my head right now.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> The divorce rates of people of women in

their 50s and 60s.

>> Mhm.

>> I mean, right. Yes or no?

>> Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

>> Right. So, a healthy system has

permeable boundaries, meaning feedback

is flowing in and out all the time. What

happens when the world gets complex is

we start not wanting the feedback. The

complexity is too big. So we start

shutting down those permeable

boundaries. Well, what happens to a

system where the boundaries are no

longer permeable. It atrophies. And in

the in the process of atrophying, the

system becomes self-referencing. Are we

good? We're great. Are we right? We're

right. Are we on target? We're on

target. because the boundaries of the

system is are no longer craving outside

feedback even when it's tough. And in

businesses today, the geopolitical

realities, the market changes, AI, I

mean, it's crazy.

>> And so our

predisposition

to shut down uncertainty and complexity

is the biggest threat to the systems in

which we work and live.

the self-protect, close the wall, put up

the drawbridge, fill the moat with

piranhas.

We just don't have that luxury. We've

got to keep the the boundaries

permeable. We've got to keep learning,

guessing, unlearning, relearning.

>> One of the added complexities is the

rise in algorithms. And and actually

when I think about algorithms that are

powered by AI, they're going to be even

better at knowing what you want to see

so that you spend time, so that you

consume more adverts, which means

probably the best thing to show me is

either something really fearful or to to

confirm what I already believe.

>> 100%.

>> An algorithm that was doing the opposite

probably wouldn't be an enjoyable

experience for the average human brain.

It would cause too much dissonance, too

much discomfort,

>> but great for democracy.

>> Great. Yeah. Fantastic. But terrible for

for running a business and selling ads.

So any company that takes that approach

will go bankrupt. This is why Tik Tok I

think have been so successful is the

algorithm is I don't use Tik Tok. So I

have a Tik Tok account. I don't have the

app on my phone. But um from what I hear

is it's so unbelievably addictive.

People describe it to me and they're

like, "Oh my god, it's so addictive."

>> But this [ __ ] is the devil.

>> Yeah.

Yeah. But it's people are driven by

incentives, right? And you your your

share price is going to tumble and

you're going to be fired. And you're

going to lose your your status and your

power if you don't do that.

>> I'm playing devil's. Obviously, I'm not

I No, I agree. What do you think the

solution is?

And what responsibility do

the bros who run these tech platforms

have?

>> It's complicated.

>> Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an

easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and

I just think it's complicated because

what what an objective party would say

who's just looking at the incentives of

these groups of people is if they don't

do it,

>> China will.

>> So even with AI now, you know what I I'm

like, I've sat with all these experts

and I keep hitting up against this wall,

which is, okay, if we just banned people

in the United States from pursuing this

super intelligence strategy, then Russia

and China get there first, then the

United States, unfortunately, are going

to end up being China's French bulldog.

And actually, I can't refute that. I go,

"No, you're right." Cuz we you'd have to

literally lease the technology off them.

It will be so powerful and give such an

economic advantage that you will have to

lease it off China. So, okay, I guess

Sam Alman does need to crack on or else

so it's complicated.

>> I mean, this is where I end up every

time.

>> I mean, look what happened with Tik Tok.

China made an algorithm. It was

unbelievably addictive. The United

States had just had to buy it off them

because they were scared that the data

was going to be used against the United

States. A prime example. Like, China

like, "Fuck it. We don't care."

>> Yeah. Right.

>> Yeah. And they made an unbelievable

algorithm called Tik Tok which just

captivate, you know, the youth are all

just [ __ ] losing their brains. So, I

don't know. I don't know. It's tough.

It's rough. Spiritual crisis.

>> Yeah. I mean, you just laid it out. You

just laid it out.

We're emotionally disregulated. We're

distrustful of each other. We don't

trust ourselves very much. And we're

disconnected. I can't give up on people,

though. I'm not built that way.

Like, I just believe that we are more

good than greedy.

You know, I I was in conversation with

Trevor Noah at an event and I mentioned

this term that I I was really excited

about and he challenged me on it and I

said, I think what we need is cognitive

sovereignty. We need to wrestle control

away from the algorithms

and decide what we consume, what we

read, how we think, think critically.

We need to think about our attention and

our focus

as commodities that people are after

because they're after them, right?

>> He had an interesting point though. He

always has interesting points, don't you

think?

>> It's so tough to to talk to Trevor

because he's so he's always got an

interesting point.

>> He's always got an interesting point.

Damn it. Um and he's funny, but he said,

"No, we need less cognitive sovereignty,

Bnee." And I'm like, "What do you mean?"

He goes, "Everything's about the for you

page. Everything's for you. We need

communal sovereignty. He's like, you

know, the whole problem is that your for

you page is completely sovereign. You

intellectually and spiritually I'm I'm

paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure it

was like

funnier and better looking, but

um but

he he and then I was trying to think

about like I guess maybe that's not the

right term, but let me let me tell you

what scares me the most. I'm in I'm in

some weird rooms because of the nature

of my job. I'm in rooms where the people

who run these platforms and own and you

know that own the CEOs of these business

and the founders are in these rooms and

I hear them talking and I hear things

that are so misaligned

that it panics me. So I hear someone

say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire,

what what should my kids study? I'm

worried for my kids." well they should

study coding physics you know and then

five minutes later as if that answer

didn't happen someone will say to what

do you attribute your success I mean

deeply when you think about it and the

same person will say my deep reading of

philosophy in the stoics

and so then I'm thinking to myself well

which is it dude

and then I then I start to extrapolate

from there and wonder

if there is a thinking class that's

emerging

where they're like, "We're going to read

philosophy and we're going to read

the liberal arts and we're going to

study history and the rest of you just

keep scrolling. Don't worry about the

big words. We'll we'll handle all the

big words for you." Like, it's like when

they asked Steve Jobs, "Boy, your kids

must love the iPad." Steve Jobs said,

"My kids don't have an iPad." And then

his biographer who spent time with his

family said he wasn't kidding. There's

no technology at dinner. They're talking

about art and history.

>> The hardest chapter I've ever written in

my life of any book was the chapter on

grounded confidence and strong ground.

What is the set of skill sets and

mindsets that I think we're going to

need to future ready and future proof

ourselves to be leaders moving forward?

And I think what was hard about it was

the complexity of it was probably a

combination of 30 different mindsets and

skill sets.

And when I was done, you know, for

commercial reasons, someone on my team

immediately said, "Geez, this is like a

if you can train people in these things,

this is really this is like really

important."

And the first thing I thought was, "Fuck

that. My kids

train like I get it. It's important.

like we'll we'll we'll we'll develop

some instrumentation, measure it. We'll

train folks in it. I think it's

trainable. It's teachable. It's

measurable. But really, I want this for

my kids.

I want my kids to know systems thinking.

I want my kids to know anticipatory

thinking, situational awareness,

temporal awareness. I want my kids to

have this complex set of skills.

Do I want them to have jobs one day

where all they're worried about is

shareholder value? Really, no. I want

them to own their mind, own their

intellect, own their attention, and own

their focus.

I want them to read.

I want them to understand history.

I want them to develop pattern

recognition skills because these are the

skills of the future. I want them to be

able to hold the tension of nuance and

paradox when everything in their brain

is saying pick one, pick one, reconcile,

I'm uncomfortable, pick one, reconcile,

I'm uncomfortable. That's neurobiology.

>> In those in those 20 years of your 20

plus years of your career, what have you

been exposed to from a 30,000 foot

perspective? like what what are the wide

range of reference points that you draw

upon to be the person that you are today

and you know cuz you've had it feels

like you've got a very wide range of

references clearly you know you're

someone that cares a lot about history

that comes through in your answers but

I'm wondering in your career like what

are what are the experiences that you've

had have you been working directly with

patients is it ac academic reference

points you're drawing upon

>> yeah um no one's ever asked me this,

which I've been grateful that no one's

asked me. Um, so what a pain in the ass,

but um because no one's going to like

the answer.

>> I'm excited about the answer now.

>> Everything like every single thing. Um,

yes, I, you know, I love history. Yes, I

read academic papers all the time. Yes,

I wake up in the morning and I read

because of the nature of my work. I read

the Wall Street Journal, the New York

Times, Bloomberg, the Financial Times.

Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a

lot. But there's a chapter in the book

that was one of my favorite to write on

the transitions home from work.

>> Mhm. and how how how tough they are and

how if you're like me, you've had a very

frustrated partner look at you more than

once in your life and say, "Hey,

I know it was stressful. I don't work

for you. Change gears."

>> Yeah.

>> Have you ever had that?

>> No comment.

>> No comment. [laughter]

Yeah. I use a metaphor in that book, in

this chapter of a lock.

And how did that come to me? Because I

was reading the book series, The Rivers

of London. And in that book series,

there are two gods of the Tempames. And

the Teddington Lock is where right

outside of London in Teddington is where

custody changes for them. So, I went to

the Teddington lock cuz I was

interested. I met the lock master

that runs the lock. She gave me a

three-hour lesson that day. We let

narrow boats through the temps. I

learned how lock works and that's the

metaphor that I use to talk about the

research on what do we do when we spend

all day locking in hyperfocused

compartmentalizing getting [ __ ] done and

then instead of going home to our

partner when we get home we spend 30

minutes in the garage on TikTok because

we can't bear to go in.

So why do we do that? Because we need a

lock through period. We need time to go

into a chamber metaphorically,

change levels, let go of where we were,

lower ourselves to the rhythm of what

we're doing now. Cognitive, we would

call it cognitive and domain shifting,

and we need time. So, I looked at the

lock master at uh Teddington and said,

"This [ __ ] is taking a long time. Can we

get this chamber filled up a little bit

quicker?" And she said, "Locking through

takes what locking through takes. If you

rush it, you risk capsizing.

We get home and then we walk in the back

door and it's like, I can't find my

shinuards. I think I left them on the

pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my

god, you didn't sign the permission

slip. I had to sneak into the zoo, you

know? And you're like,

take me back to work where I'm the boss

of everything, [laughter] you know. So,

where do I learn those things? Well,

cognitive and domain shifting come out

of psychology.

Jimma the lock master at Teddington.

There's wisdom everywhere.

I put it together through stories and

metaphors. I mean, another thing in the

book, I mean, I'm standing on the

sideline at DKR, the University of Texas

Longhorn football stadium.

>> Um, and I'm standing with Emanuel Ao. Do

you know Emanuel?

>> No.

>> Yeah. He's great. He he played for the

Longhorns. He played for the NFL. Now

he's a writer. So, I'm standing there

and we're watching the game and I look

at him, I go, "How would you define

pocket presence?"

And pocket presence is an American

football term. So, do you know American

football? Okay. So, I'm a quarterback.

I'm going to get the ball and I have to

throw the ball or run the ball or hand

off the ball to get the ball down the

pitch down the field. Right.

>> Mhm. [clears throat] And when when the

ball is snapped and the ball is put into

motion,

there's about 12 to 1,400 lb of really

angry people trying to drive me into the

ground.

>> The people that are protecting me from

those defensive guys are called my

offensive line.

>> And the way [clears throat] they do it

is they form a pocket around the

quarterback.

And the quarterback uses that time to

decide where am I going to throw the

ball? Am I gonna run the ball? And

pocket presence is the ability of a

quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to

three seconds he has to read the field,

understand where the defenders are, and

make a decision. And so when I asked

Emanuel Ao, how would you define pocket

presence? He said,

and I want you to think about this in

terms of your business, the ability to

read the field without seeing all of it.

and trusting your team well enough to

make a move even though you can't see

everything.

>> What are the skill sets you need right

there? One, temporal awareness. You got

to know how much time you have to get

rid of that ball or get it down the

field. They they say Tom Brady, who

played for the Patriots, is any of this

ringing a bell?

>> Yeah, 92.

>> Okay. Tom Brady, they said his pocket

presence was so good, he could tell

where his offensive linemen were by the

vibrations through his his cleats on the

field.

So temporal awareness, situational

awareness, what's going on, anticipatory

awareness,

think about a great football player,

right? Think about Mossala.

>> You don't kick the ball to where the

striker is. You kick the ball to where

the striker's going to be. Mhm.

>> So, anticipatory and situational

awareness, right?

>> Pattern recognition. Have I been in this

situation before? Do I know how to, you

know, where's the goalie in the cage?

Where are they standing right now? Like,

and so

I'll take my inspiration from sports all

the time, which is why there's so many

sports metaphors,

right?

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> I think there's not a better sports a

better metaphor to describe work right

now than

Premier League football.

One of the things um per is throughout

your work is this idea of connection. I

did a mushroom

I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend

a couple of years ago. First time I've

ever done it and um the message that

came through for me was it was about

connection and that word has had a fond

place in my heart ever since as being

really really important. And we live in

a society that's more lonely than ever

before, more disconnected in many ways

as you describe when you're referencing

the spiritual crisis that we're living

in. This word connection, what does that

mean? Does it mean on an individual

basis? Does it mean me having friends

and relationships? Is that connection?

Is that the type of connection I should

be looking for? Or does it need do I

need to like do you think people need to

ladder up further to their city, their

town, their world, to the community, to

something bigger, God?

What what does connection mean in this

context?

>> Yes.

I think the answer to that question is

yes. We're neuro neurobiologically

hardwired to be in connection with other

people and in the absence of connection

there's always suffering

always suffering in the absence of

connection. So I think I mean just how

we're built mirror neurons you know our

ability to sync up neurobiologically

when we feel connected and are hearing

each other. So to me, connection is the

ability to be in a relationship where we

can both give and receive, where we feel

seen, heard, believed, valued.

That is that human connection is really

important on a micro level, one-on-one

with other human beings. I think a sense

of belonging and a sense of place. And I

don't know that that necessarily needs

to be a location,

but

A sense of being a part of something

bigger than you I think is also

important. So love and belonging,

connection, irreducible needs.

I I think spirituality I define

spirituality is being inextricably

connected to other people by something

bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe

that's God, maybe that's fishing. Like I

I you know it's different for other

people. For me, I'm faith is one of my

values and I'm a a pretty serious God

person. Um I'm a pretty deep person of

faith. I guess I would ask somebody,

what is that thing

that transcends

difference?

Political difference, ideological

difference, race, gender, you know,

belief systems, class. What is it that

brings you to a common humanity place?

Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big

challenge cuz like I I try to work from

an ethos where I try to find God in the

face of everybody that I meet. Even if I

want to punch you in the throat, I try

to like like like that's my thing in

some way. I'm connected to you

>> whether I like it or not and whether I

like you or not.

And when you talk about belonging, it's

interesting in your book Braving the

Wilderness, which I think the question

is kind of summed up by the subtitle

here. The quest for true belonging and

the courage to stand alone. This appears

to be a dichotomy or a contradiction.

>> Mhm.

>> To belong, but also to stand alone.

>> Mhm.

>> Why are both of these important? Why is

it important to belong? What does that

mean? And and why is it also important

to stand alone?

Because I don't think you can truly

belong

to anything or any or or any group if

you don't belong to yourself first.

True belonging

requires us to be who we are,

not to change who we are. That's fitting

in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to

belonging.

>> Which takes us both back to our

childhoods, right?

>> Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. fit in.

The problem is that that chameleon

kind of skill set

means that in order to fit in, the first

person you betray is yourself. We've got

to be able to stand alone. And that's

what's happening right now in the world.

I mean, if I if I look back at Braving

the Wilderness, that was maybe the only

prophetic book that I think I've ever

written. like that like like that. I

don't think I'm prophetlike, but man,

did I call what was happening in terms

of the big sort into ideological bunkers

where we're going to get to a place

where

I don't even know you, but I'm going to

call you friend because we hate the same

people.

And you over there, I actually do love

you. you're a family member of mine,

but I'm not, you know, because we don't

believe in the same things. You have no

meaning in my life. Like, it's like we

have gotten to the place where

ideological bunkers

and those are so dangerous cuz here you

and I like let's say let's say that we

have the same belief around immigration.

Um, so we're going to flip this table

over and we're going to get behind it in

our ideological bunker and we're going

to be like, "Yeah, we're right." and

these guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ]

y'all, you know. And then one day I'm

going to turn to you and say, you know,

one thing I'm wondering about

is how are we going to solve the problem

[clears throat]

with the folks coming over in the

dingies from France? Cuz I don't think

we're going to be able to go without

solving it because we do have an

employment issue and a housing crisis.

And then you go, you're out.

My my care for you, my connection with

you completely dependent

on you not questioning anything we

agreed to back here.

Well, that's counterfeit connection.

What's real connection? Like I got to

know what's going on in your mind cuz

your face is like we got to play poker

tech. We have to put that on our agenda.

[laughter]

What are you thinking? I was just

thinking about being a podcaster and I

sit here with all types of people. So I

had Camala Harris sat here

>> uh 3 4 days ago and I'll have someone on

the right s here, you know, and then

I'll have we had Michelle Obama, then

I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll

have the opposite of whatever Jordan

Peterson is.

>> And I was just thinking about how um how

that's also kind of made me feel like I

don't belong because that is quite rare.

There's probably not a podcast on earth

that has had both Michelle Obama and

Jordan Peterson.

>> No.

>> Yeah. And then Kamal Harris after that.

Like I didn't manage to scare Michelle

off. I didn't scare Jordan off. And so

you get you kind of get attacked from

both sides. Oh, I mean, look, if you're

not if you're not

getting threatening [ __ ] from the far

here, the far left or the far right, if

you're not getting both, you're not

doing your job.

>> Amen. Yeah.

>> Period.

>> But it's tough because

>> Oh, God. It is heartbreaking.

>> Yeah.

>> It will break your heart. And it will

remind you of why standing alone is on

the front of that book. M

>> because what it will do is it is winnow

the right word? It will narrow

your belonging, your true belonging.

>> Yeah.

>> Down to

a very few people.

>> I mean, I completely understand how it

happens that a podcaster like me will

end up picking a side because there is

safety in numbers.

>> Well, because there's an ideological

bunker cuz we flip the table over.

>> 100%. At any point, you know, when the

left attacks you, I'm like, the right

looks pretty good. When the right

attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left looks

pretty." Because standing in the in no

man's land is is not the place you want

to be. I know I'm never going to succeed

in this. Like, I know I'm never going to

succeed in converting pe converting

people to be nuanced and to not get

viscerally angry when I have someone on

the show who's on the right or

viscerally angry when I have someone on

the show who's on the left. I'm already

aware that when the commander episode

comes out, it's just going to be a bunch

of people that didn't listen and within

the first 3 minutes, the comment section

is just going to be [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm like, part of me is trying to

win that war with my audience where they

too will just listen. And I know that

you don't agree with a person, but can

you just listen? Cuz that's what I do.

And it's not some act I'm putting on.

It's not like I walk out there and I

start I I'm right-wing in my kitchen or

left wing in my kitchen. Genuinely, the

brain way my brain works is, oh, I see

this this good in this individual. And

then I meet someone else who's on the

other side and I say, "Oh, there's a

couple of points of good." I agree agree

with them on this. That's how I am. And

it feels so weird because when you go on

the internet, you don't find yourself

being compelled by either side entirely.

>> No. No. And I think it's really

confusing. And the only limit I have

really is I am not probably going to

have a conversation with you

if your beliefs question my humanity.

Okay,

>> that that's going to be my line. That

that's going to be that's going to be

the line for me is going to be if you're

cruel

or name call.

>> Yeah.

>> Or if your core beliefs about who I am.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> Or who other people are are

dehumanizing.

I I I can't I can't that I can't do

because now I've betrayed myself in

order to make a political point about

nuance.

>> Yeah. Because that because you know

dehumanization is a really interesting

and hard thing

when you study when you look at the

research of people who study

dehumanization

and you we talked about earlier with the

with immigrant populations

there is a circle of moral inclusion.

We are not built,

we are not hardwired to hurt each other,

to kill each other, assault, rape, beat.

It's not, we're not wired for it,

actually. So, in order to do that, you

you've got a person here inside your

moral inclusion.

In order to be okay with that, you've

got to push them outside of moral

inclusion to be morally excluded from

somebody you see as human and worthy of

moral inclusion. And the first step to

moral exclusion, moving people out of a

safety zone where you don't do horrible

things to them, the first way to move

people out is language. throughout

history, as long as people have lived.

So,

you hear people in this administration

calling a a a community of immigrants an

infestation

the same way we would talk about animals

or rats, you know. And so my only limit

to hard conversation

is if you're operating from an ideology

where women are dogs, immigrants are

illegals, you know, if you're operating

from that place of moral exclusion.

You are too dangerous for me.

But other than that, I'd probably be

willing to have a conversation with

anyone. But I can understand why people

pick sides. I tell you what, it is

lonely.

>> Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's nice

to hear though. It's really nice to hear

that. That that is um

Yeah,

we've talked about it quite a lot. Me

and Jack um who's been producing the

show since the very beginning. Uh we've

we've talked a lot about how we

understand the temptation to pick a

side. And actually one of the greatest

compliments a journalist has ever given

me is they wrote in the article and this

wasn't a journalist that liked me. They

just said um we're unable to

ascertain which political party he is

part of. I thought that was a great

compliment because

>> I mean

>> it means that

>> that's that's a journal that's a

journalistic ethos.

>> I think they would want to pin me down

and say he's [ __ ] they'd love to say

I'm rightwing or

>> something else. But they said um in a

not very nice piece they'd written about

me or whatever, they said that we're

unable to figure out what side he's part

of. And I think that's a compliment

because it's it's true. And I think it

allows me to do my job better that I

don't have too many preconceptions when

I meet people. I try and meet people for

the first time,

>> which I enjoy.

>> I think you're pretty good at that cuz

you are insatiably curious.

>> It's It's lovely and terrible.

>> Why terrible? It's terrible for an

avoidant.

I found this out recently. I've known it

my whole life, but I found it out

recently cuz I had a conversation. If

someone's I think if someone's

uncomfortable with vulnerability then

I'm like their [ __ ] worst nightmare.

>> You are. [laughter]

>> Which is interesting cuz I don't expect

you as super vulnerable.

>> Oh, really?

>> Uh

maybe not.

>> Carefully optimistic vulnerable.

>> Yeah, that's probably

>> like like you're co you're cognitively a

believer.

>> Yeah.

>> And trying to move the rest of you to

it.

You've got the journalistic ethos of

equal opportunity,

insatiable, curious guy, right?

>> Mhm.

What do you think the responsibility is

of someone who has a platform

>> to vet or understand the credibility

especially when it comes to science or

those kind of things of what their guest

is saying? I think that we the school of

podcasters haven't really we don't have

the um

the ex the training that journalists do.

So we're almost catching up in that

regard especially if you become a big

podcaster because you're kind of held

you're held at a in a different level.

So more recently, one of the things we

do is we we've hired I mean this

recently, it was a year and a half ago.

We hired a PhD who does exactly that.

Who after this comes out, we'll go

through everything that you said and

then put on the screen things that were

not within scientific consensus.

>> But that in itself

is a decision.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

It is a decision.

It's not a choice without consequence

either.

>> No, some people don't like it.

>> What led you to that choice?

>> When your podcast reaches lots of

people, you're forced. This kind of goes

to what I said earlier about the

political stuff. You're forced to really

get clear on what you believe and like

what matters to you. And one of the

things that matters to me is that the

stuff we put into the world, we feel

like it's helping people even if it's

not nice. And it kind of goes to

something that I read in your work,

which is like our objective isn't to be

nice, it's to be kind.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And so, for example, my conver the

conversations we have about AI, like I'm

well aware that that's not going to

necessarily make you feel great.

>> But I think the avoidance of discomfort

in in through history,

>> oh god,

>> hasn't led to great places. So like if

you think there's a bus coming, I can,

you know, it's I can pretend there

isn't. But if I think that there might

be a bus coming and if experts and

telling me there's a bus coming, I think

we should have a conversation about the

bus coming. And actually me having that

conversation, I get messages all the

time which is like please stop talking

about this subject. It doesn't make me

feel good.

I'm very anchored to like what my my my

job is here. And I think it's we can

push people further towards uh we can

progress through

honest conversations. So when the

podcast got bigger and you get more and

more you get attacked more for any any

of your guests that you have on. Yeah.

>> You have to get clear on what matters to

you and what your job is. And so one of

the things I thought is actually when we

have these conversations I want them to

be as accurate as they possibly can be

for the listener who might be confused

cuz it's a confusing world in this new

world of democratized media.

>> So we do that.

>> I really respect that. I just want to

say um I don't think

that that choice is the easy choice.

What is the easy choice, do you think?

>> The easy choice is

I'm going to let you

say whatever you want and I'll let my

listeners sort out if it's real or not.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> And I'll take no responsibility for the

credibility

or the facts that are being presented.

Mhm.

>> Um,

what I think is interesting about what

you're doing is

it just seems like a very solid approach

where

I'm a big believer in science. You know,

I'm married to physician. I'm a social

scientist. Like, I'm I'm I'm not going

to be the golden child of this

administration when it comes to science

for sure. Like I have a I love science

>> shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So

like I'm I'm like I'm very real about

that.

I also don't think that everything that

we see

that is projected as peerreviewed

clinical trial. You know I think

challenges to that system are also

important. I think science cannot be a

self-referencing system anymore than any

other system can be. So to have people

that have different opinions or new

opinions

>> on but to let your listeners or your

viewers know that this is not an opinion

where there's a lot of a data collected

or that this is a controversial opinion

is respecting people's cognitive

self-determination.

I I just think it's a it's an

interesting way to do it. I just I I

think I launched the podcast and it

became very big during co

>> I'll go to Yeah.

>> And so

Houston is home to the biggest medical

center in the world like in the world

and I live in the medical center area.

In the beginning, there were just, you

know, it just there never stopped being

funerals for physicians and people

working on COVID. And so to hear on

podcasts that it doesn't exist.

>> Yeah.

>> Or that you can use, you know, Windex

or, you know, like some [ __ ] like

that. I I just started to and then I got

into a little dust up around it in my

own situation. And so I'm always

interested as we enter this world in

platform and podcast responsibility.

>> It is a it's a slippery slope and it's

um

>> very

>> and there's no there's no perfect

outcome. Like you don't want to go too

far either way, right? You don't want to

like the government get involved and

tell you what truth is or

>> but you also don't want to stray into um

conspiracy land and um

>> away from science because

>> you know

>> there are things that are knowable.

>> Yeah, there are things that are

knowable.

>> But

>> yeah,

>> but

I don't know. I I I just think it's an

interesting question for this time. And

I think it's an interesting question

when you have a platform that's powerful

and I think if you're doing the best you

can to make decisions based what what is

the question [clears throat]

that drives your decision- making

>> for me?

>> No, like just in general. Yeah, I got

yours. You you want to you want to help

your listeners and you want to do good.

>> Yeah.

>> Um that's a different thing than

downloads.

>> You can do both.

>> You can do both. But if your only filter

>> Well, oh, you you'd go for [ __ ] total

conspiracy

>> now. Right. Right. Right. Right. And so

I just think it's I just think it's an

interesting question. I don't have an

answer. I just know that it's an

important question.

>> Yeah. And you know what? I'll be honest.

So, as um I mean, we're not journalists.

We're not journalists here, so we don't

really understand the rigor. And I've

got a lot of respect for journalists and

the the effort they've put in to

understand the journalistic method and

all those things. I feel like we're

somewhat catching up. We didn't This

podcast went from zero to 70 million

people a month in 4 and a half years or

something. hard.

>> So, and we're just [ __ ] holding on.

Like me and Jack didn't run a podcast

before, so I didn't run one before. And

so, we're now catching up. And part of

the part of the way that we're shaped is

with feedback. And you get lots of

feedback. Don't have this person. I'll

never speak to this person again. Don't.

And you kind of bat that stuff off. But

if there's any ever anything that

actually feedback that actually is in

contra contradiction that does test your

own mission or your own values, then you

listen and you know, you can start to

innovate. And one of the things that we

thought was smart was to have the

pop-ups on screen, which everybody is

probably familiar with by now. And it's

a balancing act. We don't want to

completely discredit everything that the

guest has to say, but we also just want

to give context. And that's kind of

context what they're saying. If

something's ridiculous, we'll just

remove it. Like if something's abs, we

we not publish the episode is probably a

better way of saying it. We had a couple

of episodes where people some guest said

some things which were just absolutely

[ __ ] crazy. You don't need a PhD to

know that you can't exercise by lying on

the ground. Like this one guest had said

to me that you can build your muscles

just by laying on your back or whatever

and and not doing anything. We just

didn't publish the episode.

>> I can just say as a PhD that I have

attempted that.

>> Yeah, it doesn't work.

>> I know it was for jack [ __ ] [laughter]

>> I can be your PhD on the just laying.

>> Yeah.

>> No, I think that I respect the approach,

>> which is one of the reasons I decided to

come on

>> because I respect the approach.

>> We're not perfect, but we're trying. And

it's the thing that you're walking a

path.

>> The world of business looks entirely

different today than it did 15 years

ago. Back then, building a brand meant

having huge budgets, warehouses, office

space, and lots and lots of stuff. But

now, you can start a business with your

laptop, an idea, and the right tools.

And I would know more so than anybody

else because that's exactly what I did.

Shopify is one of our long-standing

sponsors on this show and they're a

brand I often refer people to when

they're starting their businesses

because it's a tool that contains many

more tools within itself. And when

you're starting out, everything is

everywhere. It's messy and it's

confusing. So having everything in the

same place is incredibly useful. Shopify

puts store design, payments, inventory,

shipping, and even AI tools all in one

place, and you can sell directly from

your website or on social media

essentially wherever your customers

spend their time. It's truly a brilliant

business tool. So, if you want to give

it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlet

and sign up for your $1 per month trial

period. That's shopify.com/bartlet.

>> On that point about me and

vulnerability,

is vulnerability important? Cuz there's

a lot of performative vulnerability

taking place in

>> Is it an important thing for my health,

happiness, my future to be a vulnerable

person?

>> Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability

is the emotion we experience when we

have when we are up against uncertainty,

risk and emotional exposure. So

vulnerability is what I feel. It's the

cringe, the awkward, the thing that I

the emotion I feel in times of

uncertainty,

>> risk or emotional exposure. So, it was

really interesting because I had a hard

time helping people understand because

there's we are so raised to believe that

vulnerability is weakness that it took a

trip to Fort Bragg working with special

forces to ask soldiers a question. Give

me a single example of courage in your

life. One example that you've witnessed

or you you yourself have done. One

example of courage that did not require

uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.

No one could answer it. Finally a young

soldier stood up and said three tours.

There is no courage without

vulnerability. So is vulnerability

important? It is if we want to be brave

with our lives. If we if we want to be

able to manage ourselves in a way that's

values aligned and courageous, we have

to be able to reconcile how we feel when

we're uncertain, at risk, or exposed. I

mean, and really weirdly, the next week

after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with

Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL

team. Yeah.

>> Ask the players,

give me an example of courage on the

field or off that did not require

vulnerability.

>> They said that it's not possible. There

is no courage. Like, if you're doing

things in your life, in your work, and

there's no risk, no uncertainty,

and no exposure, then they're not brave.

If you know how it's going to end,

that is not courage.

Courage is a willingness to show up and

be allin when you cannot predict the

outcome. Courage is saying, "I love you

first."

[snorts]

That's you. You want to know what

vulnerability is? I love you first. Have

you ever said, "I love you first."

Uh, I'm not sure.

>> Yeah, it's been a while.

>> But it's hard. It's, you know,

>> I need to give context. It's been a

while since I've been in that situation.

>> Well, you've had to go first.

>> Yeah. Had to go first. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, there's this great story

that I tell about

I I gave a talk here. I was actually in

LA and afterwards a kid came up to me.

He's probably 22 or 23 and he said can I

tell you a story about your work and how

it's really changed my life and I was

like sure and a kind of a crowd grew

around and this is like the last time I

ever got pinned like not being able to

exit a stage because it was such a

traumatic it wasn't traumatic but it was

like he said well I was dating this

woman and I was so crazy about her so I

took her to eat to our favorite

restaurant and I waited until the

dessert came cuz we love this chocolate

volcano and I ordered it. And I said,

"I love you." And she looked at me and

she said, "I think you're awesome

and I think we should date other people

and then she Ubered home."

And so I was like, "God damn, this is

the worst story I've ever heard.

[laughter]

This is not a good story." And he said,

"So I got in my car and I drove home and

the whole way home I just kept saying to

myself over and over, "Fuck Bnee Brown.

[ __ ] Bernay Brown."

Like, when when does this when when's

the turn on the story, you know? And he

said, "I got home and I walked into my

apartment and I pushed the door open and

both my roommates were wired in and they

were on their computers and they looked

up and said, "Dude, what's going on?"

And he said, "I told her I loved her and

she told me I was awesome." And one of

my roommates looked at me and said,

"What the [ __ ] were you thinking?"

That's not how it works. When you are

going toward them, they go away. So,

you're always kind of going away. So,

they come toward you. And he goes, "Oh,

oh, no,

no. I don't want to I don't want to be

that dude."

I was daring greatly.

And he said both of his roommates just

got teary eyed and went, "Right on, man.

Right on." Like,

there is no courage without

vulnerability. How can you say you're

brave if you're not putting yourself out

there?

So many people have been through things

which have made it very, very difficult

for them to be vulnerable. I was

speaking to someone yesterday who was

cheated on bunch of attachment issues in

their early childhood. And funnily

enough, when I was talking to her about

I was asking her questions about cuz I'm

very deep person. This carries over into

my personal life. I was asking her

questions about the things, you know,

she'd been through whatever else, she

just shuts down. And she told me that

she she um [clears throat] what were the

exact words? She said that she finds

vulnerability

to be a form of intimacy that she tries

to stay away from because

she needs to really really really trust

the person before she opens up. And I

think this is a trend you see across a

lot of people. They they won't open up

enough to form a connection

>> because they've been hurt before by

opening up and it feels too scary to do

that. And that results in them being

single, alone, unhappy, so on and so on.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think there's there what

you said was so loaded with so many

things. So, first of all, there's the

there there's this very interesting

relationship between vulnerability and

trust

>> and how does that work? And people

always ask me what comes first, trust or

vulnerability. Do I trust you first,

then I'm vulnerable, or am I vulnerable

first and then I trust you? And I think

it's a very slow stacking. We get to

know each other. I share a little bit. I

don't I don't share, hey, nice to meet

you, Stephen. Here's my darkest,

horrible, most painful trauma. You know,

cuz that that is actually that kind of

litmus testing is actually a form of

armor. I'm going to throw something at

you that our relationship in no way has

been built long enough to hold. You're

going to go away and I'm going to use

that as verification that vulnerability

is dangerous. Like that's litmus

testing.

>> Let me prove to you that you're not

trustworthy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no. Oh, I see you're backing away.

That's what I thought. I'm backing away

because we haven't built a relationship

that can bear the weight of this story.

Can we start Can we start small?

>> Okay.

>> Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability,

trust, vulnerability, trust.

[clears throat]

>> I think I in that in my work we call

that like the smash and grab. Like I'm

gonna I'm gonna hit you with something

really big and then watch you go away

and use it as evidence.

>> Yeah. And it takes a really skilled

person to say, "Yeah, I'm really

I'm taking in what you told me. I want

to be respectful and honor that." And I

don't have a way to file it right now

cuz I don't know you well enough. So I

appreciate the share. I mean, we also

call it spotlighting. So, like if I had

a military grade spotlight that they use

in the wilderness, I work with the

military a lot. And I I picked it up and

put it in your face right here, what

would you do physically?

>> Oh,

>> that's what that's our reaction to too

much vulnerability too fast.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know

you.

>> Um, so you're talking about the slow