I was destined to spend the rest of my

natural life in prison crimes I didn't

commit

so journalist documentarian this is

prison saw you're going to hear a story

there's only a short period after my son

was born two months in fact my life

changed Forever on 15th December 1988 a

series of terrifying crimes took place

along the newly built M25 I was being

accused of a murder and a series of

aggravated robberies they fabricated

evidence and changed things to fit me

into the crime [ __ ] hell they

convicted us and I was destined to spend

the rest of my life in prison for the

crimes I didn't commit when I was in the

isolation cell strip naked bleeding and

bruised I screamed and I shouted through

the pain that I was suffering nobody

heard my voice at that moment something

started to grow in me that made me

become the person that I am today what

is that thing that started to grow in

you

hope free after more than a decade

Behind Bars what is a mistake that you

know you've made that you haven't yet

fixed the consequences of my actions has

meant that I've never been able to

discover anything about my son

if I put a button in front of you and

said you press this button and it raises

those 12 years I'll never ever get those

years back

did you press the button

before this episode begins I just want

to say a huge thank you to all of our

new subscribers 74 of you that watch

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[Music]

take me back

I am if you've ever had this podcast

before I'm a huge believer that in order

to understand a person you have to

really understand their context and

their earliest context

you're from a council estate

um

your home life to me from reading

through your autobiography seemed to be

incredibly defining so take me back to

those earliest years and give me the

context I need to understand the man

that you are in your early twenties

I'll go back even further and take you

to the kind of environment that I grew

up in so I grew up in southeast London

camberwell to be precise

um just at the bottom of cold Arbor Lane

which is the kind of Junction between

Brixton and camberwell before you get to

Peckham so that kind of Circle of or

that triangle as I like to describe it

in in southeast London and it was quite

a typical

um working class environment cancerless

State and the privilege of it was that

we were all the same nobody had anything

and the other thing about that

cancerless state in the environment that

I grew up in in it was a bit of a a kind

of cul-de-sac you know in these kind of

Estates where you've got block after

block there were little roads in little

roads out onto this estate and that

little patch of grass in front of our

blocks are flat and it was quite diverse

you know I was from the mixed race

family my mum's white my dad's black you

know the floor below my flat we had the

Chinese family below that we had the

kind of overweight family and opposite

then we had the smell melee family so

there was the Scottish family over in

the other Block in the Irish family so

it was a real mix of cultures and

personalities and characters and parents

and I'm not going to say that weren't

there weren't issues and problems of

course there was and you'd always have

the shouting but there and I'm not going

to make it sound mythically like it was

a great time because it wasn't but when

you're a kid you don't recognize the

problems that your parents are facing

you're not being able to pay for the

electricity not being able to buy the

things that kids want new trainers and

stuff like that so it's quite stable but

unstable at the same time because there

was also a lot of

um

crime but not crime that was obvious to

young guys like me and the girls and you

know having a camp in the bottom of a

block of flats would be our highlight

you know we go in there put dead

mattresses in there and bits of blankets

that was my kind of environment so I

kind of grew up in this cancerous state

that was very diverse I had lots of

different cultures

um and it made me comfortable

my home life was slightly different you

know my dad is Jamaica and he was strict

he came from a very strict family back

in Jamaica so when he was in the UK kind

of brought that chip with him didn't

quite integrate into British Society was

a laborer had a strong Jamaican accent

still has a strong Jamaican accent

because he never kind of

never really kind of integrated himself

now whether that's because he couldn't

because he couldn't read and write

whether that's because he wasn't

accepted because he was a black man who

came in on the Wind rush or whether it's

because he didn't want to I've never

really found out because I've never

really had that conversation with my dad

so that's the context that's what I was

growing up in a cancerous state that was

working class and very poor

if I was if I was in the walls of your

home at that time what would have I what

would I felt it seen experienced as it

relates to the relationship you had with

your your parents was there affection

was there

was there um was there love

I think there was love but it wasn't

open love as in no cuddles I love you

kind of conversations nothing like that

took place my mum oozed care and

consideration and

um and love towards me and my three

sisters my dad was very strict he was

also a drinker I wouldn't say he was an

alcoholic but he liked to consume

alcohol and that made him aggressive and

so in my household occasionally my dad

could be physically abusive towards me

and my sisters as well as my my mother

to the point where sometimes it got so

extreme that we felt we had to flee the

home so it could be quite brutal and

he'd take it out on us so it was a

challenging household

that wasn't all the time you know my Dad

could also be a joy you know you could

be the life of the party if there was

music playing and he was slamming

dominoes and he had friends around we'd

love it because we were being exposed to

this adult world that seemed exciting

and welcoming and very different because

there was a mix between the black

culture and the white culture and for me

despite the negatives in those walls

that you talk about there was also a lot

of positives I think my dad's discipline

was born out of the idea that he thought

that was the way to get us to do the

things we needed to do to improve our

lives he had no Ambitions he had no

aspirations or anything like that and he

didn't give us any of those Ambitions or

aspirations

but I'm sure that he wanted me and my

sisters to do better than he did

I hear that

um it's a conversation I thought you

know a lot about my own mother who was

extremely

um she's from Nigeria my dad's English

um her approach towards disciplining

kids is

very uh would be frowned upon I guess is

a way of saying it

um you know I got it all

um some things I've actually never said

but I've got it all and you know as I've

grown up I've wondered was that you know

great parenting was it intentional was

it you know or was it just like a lack

of control I think it's a lack of

Education i i as a as an adult Steve I I

made a a beeline to Jamaica with my dad

I needed to understand why he was the

man that he was somebody that had never

given me a hug never given me a kiss

during my time in prison I witnessed

things with other families white

families in particular where they'd come

up to visit their son and at the end of

the visit they'd hug each other they'd

kiss each other and they'd walk off of

that visit and that inmate who I

observed getting that affection was in a

good mood I never got any of that I

would from my mum but never from my dad

my dad had a beard and I remember on one

visit on one occasion sort of reaching

out for him in the way that I saw other

people do because I'd never experienced

that to give him a kiss and it was a

kind of really awkward moment Not only

was he spared itchy and difficult but I

know that he wanted it but didn't want

it so when I went to Jamaica I went

there to see what his life was like and

I learned so much about why he was the

man that he was in the house that I grew

up in and it taught me a lot of lessons

about why my dad was the way that he he

was I can I can in some respects

understand that as it relates to you

guys you know maybe he had learned the

wrong way to to get kids to behave in a

difficult environment in a difficult

area I think uh sometimes parents

wrongly in my opinion but they think

that a more harsh approach is the right

one but then as it relates to your

mother being violent towards your mother

that to me seems a little bit more

difficult to understand using the same

explanation that it's uh

mechanism to help kids

I don't think in my household it was

anything to do with helping the kids I

think it was something he witnessed in

his own household as he was growing up I

know from what I heard when I went to

Jamaica that my dad's dad was violent

that he was abusive towards my dad and

his siblings and no doubt to my dad's

mother who died when my dad was very

young so I think it comes from a place

where he witnessed that and it was the

norm to him and he brought that into his

own life and couldn't control it

you kicked out of school at Secondary

School in my first year at my secondary

school an incident happened with a

teacher where she called me a thing you

know you think you know you shouldn't be

here kind of thing and I went home

crying and I remember my mum going to

the school having an altercation with

the teacher and slapping the teacher and

as a result of my mum being protective

now to other people that may seem like

she's assaulted a teacher But the

teacher insulted me first verbally not

physically but verbally so my mum being

the protective mother that she was came

to the school and slapped the teacher in

her face for calling her son a thing and

I got expelled to the consequences were

I got expelled and went to another

school which is now the charter school

in red post doing dulwich but it was

then called William Penn an all-boy

school and and I survived that school

for just a few years before you know my

problem surfaced more and more and I was

expelled from that school

what were your problems let's go first

I think I just couldn't set oh I I think

it was you know I I wanted more than

what the school were offering me I don't

think the schools in those days could

identify what

what kids like me who grew up on Council

Estates needed education was one thing

but we needed more I had

as I've said uh in a troubled home life

not so much that the the schools needed

to intervene I wouldn't argue it was

anywhere near as bad as that as it is in

some kids lives today and in the past

but but I needed more support and I

don't think I got any of that from my

schooling and that just allowed me to do

the things that I shouldn't be doing

which is bunking off a school not going

to my lessons getting into fights

hanging out with the wrong kids

and those wrong kids would probably be

saying hanging out with me you know so

it's kind of Vice Versa but I think it

was just doing the mundane things that

kids who are not enjoying school not

taking in the lessons that they're being

learned you know end up being kicked out

of school so I was kicked out of my

second secondary school at the age of 15

16 and they put me in what they call an

intermediate school which is basically a

kind of building where they put all kids

that they deemed to be

um you know irresponsible or or not

responsive to the education system but

what you're actually doing is just

putting a bunch of kids who are already

struggling in life and trying to

discover who they are or deal with their

their problems in one environment and

you just breed even more problems

and how did that manifest itself for you

I think I started to get in trouble with

the law I started to commit Petty crimes

shoplifting breaking into cars burglary

um some people might think that burglary

is more serious than what it was but

when you're a 16 17 year old

um you know it was just a means to an

end

so that's how it manifested itself I

started to get into trouble with the law

I remember the first time a police

officer brought me home after I got

caught Nick in curly whirly chocolate

bars from the co-op around the around

the corner from my house and it wasn't

that I needed the curly world because I

already had a drawer full of chocolate

that I pinched earlier

but it was more about I don't know you

know coming home from school going in

the shop knowing that I could do it and

get away with it was the driver I didn't

need the chocolate that I got caught and

I remember a police officer bringing me

home and I remember standing in the

front room with my dad who was fuming

and I knew I was going to get beaten for

what I did because that was his reaction

to my behavior

um and the police officer I think was

sympathetic in sort of saying you know

this is not a serious offense but it is

the beginning of something that could

become serious and he was right because

I continued to get into trouble with the

law doing nothing more serious than what

I just mentioned burglaries

um shoplifting in particular for clothes

and things that I wanted that I didn't

have the material things that we didn't

have around us in those cancellous

states that were becoming more and more

um advertised you know advertisements

you know Dairy maybe I was Nick in the

chocolate bar because they had at the

time the dairy milk chocolate ad where

the guy slide through the winter and

gives these lover a bar of chocolate and

that was my Temptation

um so that's how it manifested itself

mixing with people who were already

going down the wrong path getting

together and doing that wrong path

together

17 you you get arrested for that I got I

got arrested for burglary when I was 17

and I went to court I got arrested when

I was I think 18 maybe 17 18 for assault

I I had an altercation with a mechanic

who attacked me with a spanner because I

was giving it the big I am but he was a

man I was a boy and he attacked me but I

managed to wrestle the spanner from him

and hit him with the spanner so I was

done for Grievous bodily harm and went

to court and got a a prison sentence

which was over or a young offender's

sentence which was overturned

um so I spent just a few days in in

custody but then was out on probation

that was about as serious as it got

the knives show up in your story a few

times

um

you stab someone in the bum that was on

top of you punching you and then you got

stabbed yourself

18 years old

I lived in a world

at that point and kids live in that

world today

where carrion and knife was normalized

it was an extra

an extension of who you are an extension

of your personality an extension of your

character but most importantly I think

it was something that we did and that's

me and my friendship group and even the

enemy friendship group if you like

where they were trying to show Authority

this is something you fear you don't

just fear the person but you fear the

fact that that person may be carrying a

knife and may be willing to use the

knife and I did I used the knife I I

remember being conscious of the fact

that using a knife could cause serious

harm that didn't stop me

but it did make me realize that by using

that knife I could harm someone really

seriously hence the reason I stabbed

this individual in the buttocks the bum

rather than anywhere else

but that full circle came around and I

was attacked and having people not by

the same people no

um

you know I moved around in a group of

guys and there were lots of different

groups of guys in lots of different

areas and we were quite we had quite a

reputation the 1780 my best friend

was a known fighter he could look after

himself and I was a bit of a follower at

this age I was a bit of a follower

and he had such a freedom in his life he

grew up in the Care Homes his dad came

to England with my dad so I knew him

from when he was very young and growing

up in the care home system

he was he just had this sense of Freedom

that I wanted and I wanted it because as

I say my dad was quite a you know

disciplined guy and so if I wanted to go

out he didn't want me to go out now

whether that was because he wanted to be

mean to me or whether it was because he

was trying to protect me from what I

wanted to go and do which is to go and

hang out with guys who had no life

really but just hanging out smoking weed

and chatting up girls that's what her

life evolved around but in that

environment there were men young boys

who wanted to challenge us or we wanted

to challenge them and so inevitably it

kind of leads to you carrying a knife

and in my case using a knife and having

a knife used against me

and

from what I read I believe in your

autobiography they kidnapped you one day

and took you to a park beat you up Etc

the the boy who I stabbed in the bum he

had a older brother who was quite a

known criminal in the area in Peckham in

southeast London and he and his friends

who were older than me and my group of

friends came to my flat kicked off the

door

um

and took me in a car

to a park I was bundled in the back of

the car I was taken to a park I was

strip naked I was beaten black and blue

I thought I was gonna die I thought that

was kind of you know what was going to

happen to me I thought I was going to

die when These Guys these big guys were

kind of threatening me in the car what

they were going to do to me they

stripped me naked and they beat me black

and blue and then they left me in this

park now it was in Peckham but I didn't

know where it was because I was in the

back of the car couldn't see where I was

going ended up stopping being dragged

into this park strip naked and beaten

and this is the violent environment that

I was now involved in caught up in

but I will say this even though that

world may sound to people

like a really violent and

Disturbed world that's not who I was I

was caught up in it and I was involved

in it

but I know I wasn't that person because

it's not the person my parents were

bringing up my sisters you know are law

abiding citizens I was the black sheep

of the family I was doing things because

other people were doing things and I was

with those other people that's not me

Steve blaming other people for what I

did and the involvement that I got in

that was free will

but it just wasn't who I was I just

didn't recognize it at the time

I can completely relate to that I think

um growing up around certain

environments where people are

shoplifting breaking into things you

know in the environment that I was in in

Plymouth you know if I recounted some of

the things that we did below the age of

18 in Plymouth some of the things that

made the newspaper there was one day

where 100 of us got together with

weapons and we were going to March over

the bridge and attack the neighboring

area and all these you know things we

did because of the environment it's not

who I am but in an environment we can

bring out any side of us ourselves in an

effort to really conform and to fit in

um and as a method of Defense We join

the crowds and that's kind of what I've

heard when I when I talk about those

sort of first 18 years of your life and

those things and you you know you answer

these questions

how does it feel

I have this heat glow through my body

right now as we're talking about it

because I I'm kind of projecting myself

back to that moment and the person that

I was the environment that I grew up in

my household my friendship group and the

lack of guide and guidance and support

that young men like me wanted and I you

know I'm not a kind of bleeding heart

person who sort of says oh well there

should have been people there catching

us there should have been people there

guiding us no there shouldn't have been

um but maybe

understanding that environment as you

just say you know following in that

environment is is not always a choice

that we make because it's the only

choice

it's it's a decision that we make

because there is no alternative because

you don't know of any other alternative

and so talking about it now

um it makes me heat up inside not in an

angry way or in a passionate way but as

a reflection of the person and the life

that I led and what what got me through

that as well I think that's also

important because

in that moment at that time that I was

kicking someone or being kicked or I was

fighting with someone I was breaking

into a house or shoplifting it's the

only thing I know it was the only thing

I knew

to get money to pay for the things that

I wanted it was the only thing that the

people around me know you know rolling a

joint and smoking a joint was a bit of

fun it it we didn't think as you're not

supposed to think when you're a teenager

of the consequences and for some people

those consequences can lead to you know

dire situations as it did me or it can

lead to a New Direction in life because

they've learned a lesson and they think

right I want to go down a different path

or they meet someone who gives them an

opportunity to go down a different path

so as I think about it now I just

remember there was no alternative

there are no unknowns aren't they you

don't even know what you don't know you

don't even know that you don't know

about the other paths that are possible

if you grew up in that context where you

know there's no relatable Role Models

there's no one you can model yourself

against that's living a

other than what you said which is the TV

you get to see some people that look

like you that come from where you come

from on the TV but what I mean how many

seats are are there at that table I just

wonder whether there were people around

but I wasn't exposed to them in the same

way that there are I mean okay social

media technology is you know giving us

different platforms but I just wonder

where they were when I was in that

predicament my own predicament my own

environment where were these people and

whether it was the school teachers as I

say they were not guiding me in the

right direction yes their job is to just

educate and to impart information and I

should have been sucking up that

information like most of my peers I

suppose because not everybody who grew

up in the same environment that I did

went on to lead the same life as me so

there must have been something within my

personality and there definitely was

that made me become the person that I

become and go down the path that I went

down but I do wonder where those people

were at the time maybe they were just

living their lives outside of the

council estate and so they didn't come

into where I was because I saw very few

people become successful that were in my

immediate circle when you got stabbed

they they slashed your face didn't they

you've still got a scar from I have a

scar down the left-hand side of my cheek

I was attacked you're this is part of

the you were kidnapping the guy that's

when they that's a different incident

that was a difference that was a

different incident I was um

I was going to visit an ex-girlfriend

we'd had a bit of a rocket relationship

and I remember going to visit her in

Brixton and there were some guys

attacking an elderly woman and being the

kind of person that I was and this is

why I say there was something in me even

then

um that cared and I tried to intervene

and it led to me getting into a fight

with these guys

I didn't know they were holding a knife

I didn't have a knife with me at the

time

and they beat me one of them held me

down he stabbed me in my temple

and then cut the side of my face

open

after the fight I got up literally held

my cheek together

and made my way back to my best friend

who took me to a hospital and I had my

face stitched up by the hospital

you're 18 at this time 18.

at that age 18 were you looking out into

your future what are you saying nothing

nothing absolutely nothing just the

existence that I was in at that very

moment at that point it was about

revenge it was about finding out who did

to me what had just been done to me and

how me and my group of friends could go

and seek revenge on those individuals

especially my best friend who was my

kind of leader if you like he was the

one who was more angrier than anybody

um that's all it was about at that very

moment didn't see beyond that that's

what my existence was

at 18 as well something real life

changes in a interesting way when you um

you find out you're having a baby

yes another one of my girlfriends who

was also a young girl who grew up in the

same estate as me never really had any

kind of feelings for each other at any

point ended up in bed one night

she got pregnant

um

and gave birth to my son

at that point our relationship which

didn't exist in the first place

became even more

of a challenge because I was still a

young man myself and all of a sudden I'd

become a dad and I didn't know what a

dad was my dad wasn't as much as I love

my dad he wasn't a role model in how to

become a good dad there was no one sort

of saying to me

um this is a huge responsibility now son

and you've got to go off and do the

right thing not just for you but for

this young man that you've brought into

the world

and I was also just caught up in my own

existence and my own world I had nothing

to offer my son no guidance no money no

life

probably love but I didn't quite

understand what love meant at that point

to share with this new thing that had

come into in into my life and so a

relationship mine and my son's mother

broke down didn't exist

and that was the end of that

did you think she had been trying to

trap you

I think

I was at that age

quite quite popular among the group of

people that I was hanging around with

and

um had a bit of a reputation

um

and yeah I think

I think she you know she didn't protect

herself and I didn't protect myself and

so when we made love and had sex

didn't even recognize or realize that

she might fall pregnant but at the time

one of the one of the things that came

between us was me thinking that the

reason she got pregnant was because she

wanted to trap me into a relationship

where she could have me and no one else

could

and that became a bug bear of mine it

just made me feel that this wasn't

somebody getting pregnant because we

loved each other and we wanted to bring

a child into the world and have a happy

ever after I felt it was a

a trap that I was being brought into

this situation because she wanted me

um and that's how self-centered I was at

that age and this was actually when I

was

just before I turned just 20.

actually not 18 but just before I turned

20 because it was only

a short period after my son was born

two months in fact that I was first

arrested and charged with crimes I

didn't commit and ended up in prison so

it was only two months after he was born

that my life changed forever well you

know you weren't there when he was born

I think I read in yours I was at the

hospital the day after he was born so I

got there the day after he was born and

did what any parent dad would want to do

which is hold their newborn son daughter

and and try and I'm glad I did actually

because I think that was a moment that I

bonded with him and recognized this was

real as opposed to the months leading up

to it a pregnancy

um so I was there the day after he was

born

um and then had

limited contact over the next two months

before I ended up getting arrested and

imprisoned and then that was the end of

our relationship and this is why I say I

felt that the the the the mother of my

son

um tried to trap me because during that

period

it was I don't want anybody else to come

and visit you if you want to see that

you know there are alter maidens made to

me that I would not be able to see my

son in this I made certain decisions in

my life to cut other people out of my

life and and that kind of reinforced

this idea that I'd already had I was

being trapped into a relationship I

didn't want to be in I didn't love the

woman we had a sexual relationship and

that's all it really was and I feel

really bad saying that because the sun

come out of that and and you know as a

grown man now but I still don't have any

relationship with him as a result of my

actions not his nothing to do with him

and probably not even his mother

um but really it comes down to the

person I was at that time in my life

when was the last time you spoke to him

I've never spoke to him

I've never had the privilege of having a

conversation with him apart from when he

was still in his nap he's being brought

up to see me on a visiting table

have you tried

when I came out of prison I made

a application through the courts against

my better judgment to try and get access

to my son and I remember turning up at

court on one occasion

um as the hearings were progressing and

I think this was the kind of key hearing

and as I was walking into the call you

know the solicitors and the lawyers and

the people that were involved in this

kind of child custody case was making it

clear to me that my son didn't want to

see me his mum didn't want me to have a

relationship with him and I just felt at

that moment it would be wrong of me to

force this situation so I walked out of

the court and left it there and so I've

had no contact and I've not attempted

since then to make contact there was

this kind of little bit of me that fell

in time when he's ready he will come

looking for me for us to develop a

relationship

um sadly that's not happened

does he know who you are these days does

he know so I I think so I'm sure he does

because

he grew up in the same world that I grew

up in in southeast London um I don't

know what part of the world he's living

in right now I don't know what his life

is like what his relationships like

whether he has children whether I'm a

grandfather I have no idea and I'm

scared to even find out to be honest

there's a bit of me that's really scared

to find out that I miss so much it was a

painful

it was a painful time during the years

that I was in prison because I kept a

diary every day I'd write in that diary

every other day I'd write in that diary

a message to this son of mine that I'd

never met or had a relationship with

just so that he knew

when I got out that I hadn't completely

abandoned him physically yes I had no

control over that but in my thoughts he

was always there so I kept this diary in

the hope that one day when I got out of

prison I could present these Diaries and

he would be able to see throughout the

12 years that I was in prison that there

were lots of mentions of his names and

what I was thinking and what I was

feeling and the pain I was going through

not being able to have a relationship

with him and unfortunately I've not been

able to give him those Diaries they're

in a lot locked box at my home at the

moment

how has that been to deal with over the

years honestly how's that what's what's

that like I think I I that moment where

I walked out of the court and made the

decision that if they don't want

anything to do with me I'm not going to

force the situation I'm not gonna

get involved it might have been the

wrong decision at the time it might have

been the right decision at the time what

I didn't want to do is create a scenario

where more pain was caused and I think

forcing he would have been 12 years old

at the time forcing a 12 year old to

have a relationship with a dad that he

was told was not a good person not a

nice person didn't love you would be the

wrong thing to do and I came to terms

with that there and then and accepted

that if I was ever going to have a

relationship with this son of mine that

I'd never really got to know it would

have to be on his terms and not my term

and unfortunately those terms as far as

I know have never materialized I kind of

accepted it I kind of as sad as it is

and as much as I would advocate for any

parent and the funny thing is I will

stand and say what are you talking about

go and meet your son or your daughter it

doesn't matter that you think they don't

want to see you it's your responsibility

I've just not been able to bring myself

to do what I would tell other of people

to do because I'm scared scared of maybe

being rejected you know we all know what

that might be like going and meeting

this man and as you say he will know who

I am he will know what I do and the

success that I've made of My Life

um

but for him not to to reach out to me

maybe it's because he still doesn't want

to know who his dad is

sometimes it's as you've clearly have is

to have empathy for their situation

that's clearly what you've demonstrated

is you know

you don't you don't know I guess what

he's going through or dealing with but

you do know that if he did want to reach

out then he's probably clear on the

channels of doing doing that

I think so and there's a bit of me that

also thinks maybe he's scared maybe he's

scared that

coming to me now would be too hard a

thing I mean it's quite a dilemma isn't

it both of us at both ends

probably desperately want to rekindle

this relationship and for me to

introduce him to his brother and sister

you know my kids

um and I think about it on and off I I

do think about it I do think about how

nice that would be how lovely that would

be and you see other people make

um make those things work

but fear and being scared I don't know

you know as tough as I am in the world

that I work in when it comes to those

kind of emotional feelings

um I think it would be quite challenging

it is challenging hence I've I've not

taken the plunge I think

so

two months after his birth that's the

day that

the police kick in your door in the

middle of the night

can you take me to that to that moment

that day waking up in the middle of the

night with these men stood above you

with guns early hours of the morning I'm

I'm in bed and I'm asleep and I heard a

commotion

for five o'clock in the morning and

thought it was actually my best mate and

his brother who often had arguments and

started to walk down the stairs in my

boxer shorts teacher

um and then I saw men in balaclavas

pointing guns at me telling me to stand

still not moving really loud voices or

there shoot me

um

um I saw my brother my my best friend's

brother being taken out of the flat at

that moment

um handcuffed going backwards and my

flat mate had already been moved out

and then I was told to come downstairs I

was told to lay on the floor they put

plastic handcuffs on my hands behind my

back

um all the time sort of shouting and

threatening to shoot me if I moved

asking me whether there was anybody else

in my flat

um I didn't at that point really realize

that they were the police because there

was no police stop like you're doing the

movies it was just guys pointing guns

screaming and shouting I was

disorientated and I was taken out of my

flat and it was only at that point I

realized they were police because there

were other uniformed officers these guys

weren't uniformed officers I think

they've gone to the s17 squad or some of

the Firearms special squad or something

um so it's only when I got out onto the

landing outside of my flat and was

dragged down the stairs that I first

realized that they were the police and

at that point I saw other tenants who

were living in that Hostel at the time

also sort of face down on the floor and

as we speak about it I remember one of

my flatmates almost looking up to me

with these eyes as the police were kind

of knelt on his back and you kind of you

kind of never forget those images

they're kind of images that stick with

you at those very moments and I was

taken out of the flat and um and it was

at that point that police officers

identified themselves told me I was

being arrested for serious offenses and

then I was put in the back of a police

van

um and it was at that moment you know on

reflection at the time it was terrifying

it was horrible it was it was wrong and

even though I was involved in crime

there was nothing that warranted armed

police come into my property and

arrested me well at least I didn't think

so anyway but when I was in the back of

that police van at that very moment and

I was in the back of the van with my

best friend Michael Andy's brother

police officers opened the van and they

called Michael's name and they removed

him from the van and they called his

brother's name and they removed him from

the van and there was something really

strange about that because there was 12

13 people arrested in that flat at that

very time they were all being bundled

into different Vans but at that very

moment I was on my own

and I was on my own for the next 12

years from that very moment onwards and

there was something very indicative

about

what happened there to isolate me

into something that I I a crime that I

didn't commit and it started at that

very moment as far as I'm concerned

how long did they interrogate you for

and when did you find out the crime that

they were trying to

sort of place you against so you get

taken I was taken in this kind of all

the Vans and the police

um taken to police stations in and

around the Surrey Canterbury

um Caterham area

and I was interrogated for two or three

days it was you know after they'd taken

my property and I was

um I met a duty solicitor who came in to

one of the police cells that I was held

in who told me that I was being

um

I'd been arrested for aggravated

burglary

and other serious offenses but hadn't

told me at that point that there was a

murder a series of aggravated robberies

involved

so it was only during the interrogation

three days three days so it was on the

20th 22nd of December that I was

arrested so on the 22nd of December I

was interrogate the 23rd of December the

24th of December I was charged so it was

only during those interrogations with

these police officers that I discovered

that I was being accused of a murder and

a series of aggravated robberies that

were in relation to crimes that had been

committed around the M25 area there was

a huge amount of publicity at the time

but I was unaware of that publicity

because I wasn't a kid that paid any

attention to the news or had any

interest in what was going on in the

newspapers but at the time you know the

story of the m253 gang was on the front

page of of every National newspaper

rewards were being offered for the

arrest of these killers these monsters

as as the media were describing this

gang but I was completely oblivious to

any of that and only found out during

that interrogation that I was being

accused of murder not knowing it was

anything to do with that particular

crime and and the serious about a

robberies you know I watch a lot of

these police interrogation videos and I

always you can't help but wonder what

you would do in that situation if you

are innocent what you would say how you

would be if you're triple guessing your

own body language or

but in those interrogations when you

find out what the crime is and you

realize you have no this isn't me so I I

didn't do this I wasn't there

what are you what are you thinking and

feeling are you feeling that you're

going to be out and they're going to

they've got the wrong guy and they're

gonna realize or are you are you

terrified I think it's a combination of

both you try to hide I tried to hide my

fear and I think anybody would

when you come from it goes back to that

environment that I grew up in and my

kind of experience is if you like with

the police and you know people who are

constantly in your face kind of thing

and I think during the interrogation

there was a lot of fear I was scared

um

but at the same time I was cocky I was a

teenager I was kind of almost for the

first time in my life

standing up for myself I mean you know

standing up for myself in a fight is one

thing against my peers or people

standing up against the authority

um or authorities like police officers

is a completely different mindset but

during those interrogations during those

interviews with the police where they

started to tell me that I'd killed

somebody tell me that I was involved in

these crimes and that people were saying

that I was involved in these crimes that

I knew I was not involved in it allowed

me to be a little bit cocky [ __ ] is the

only way of describing it where I didn't

shut up and do a no commenting it's like

no what are you talking about I I didn't

do that no I wasn't there that's a lie

so I was defending myself and standing

up for myself from the very beginning

and I think

I think that

that created a situation where the

police themselves were having to to make

my life harder more difficult in that

interview room because

I I wasn't I wouldn't say roll over but

I wasn't accepting what they were

telling me I should accept and that's

not me saying that the police were

trying to get me to confess for crimes

that I didn't commit it was more about

them asserting their Authority and

telling this little brown boy with

dreadlocks who couldn't you know

articulate himself like I can with you

right now that he was a murderer that he

was a um a bad person who'd done bad

things and we've got you and we're going

to lock you up for the rest of your life

that's what I was experiencing so it was

a terrifying experience and I was scared

and I was on my own and I wasn't being

supported by the solicitor at the time

but equally at that moment during that

time something started to grow in me

that made me become the person that I am

today

what is that thing that started to grow

in you

hope

and resilience and determination and

this ability not to allow

someone else to dictate who you are what

you're going to become what you should

do what you shouldn't do

it's as if they were plant in seeds

within me my physical body and in my

mind

that would grow over the next few months

and years that I was wrongfully

imprisoned convicted of a murder and

these crimes I hadn't committed I didn't

realize it at the time but on reflection

I realized in those moments where I'd

always been a follower

followed my friends followed the

environment that I was in got involved

in things that if you'd asked me to do

it on my own I would never have done it

because I'd been too scared to do it you

know burglar house on my own you're

joking I couldn't do something like that

but when my mates were doing it yeah I'd

follow and get involved when we were

going in shops together and shoplifting

I get involved asking me to do it on my

own and I'd be quite scared to do it

and so for the first time in those

interrogations and during the early

Roman period

I became I would say a a young man and

that's where the seeds of a young man

for me started to grow when I was put in

a predicament where there was no way out

apart from drawing Within Myself the

strength that I needed to get help

and for context the crime that you were

being accused of what what exactly was

that crime

so there was a murder where a elderly

man was attacked with his boyfriend in a

field and during the course of that

attack he died of a heart attack having

suffered a beat in from this gang of

three men

the same three men that were involved in

that attack that hijacking

of a car where the car was hijacked by

three men the man was beaten the same

three men then turned up at the property

of some wealthy people in Surrey broke

into their home tied up the occupants

attacked and stabbed one of the

occupants

and then they fled that crime in the

cars from that property and went to a

third scene all in one night all over

the 15th 16th of December 1988 they then

went to another crime scene broke into

the property of

um two occupants and tied up those

occupants and fled with their property

so those were the free crimes murder

attempted murder the stabbing and the

aggravated robbery and then the third

aggravated robbery at the final

scene so all of those crimes is what I

was being accused of being involved in

as your Center sentencing in so that the

case approached were you hopeful were

you hopeful that you were going to be

found not guilty and be able to walk it

wasn't Steve about whether I was hopeful

or or

um you know what I felt it was about the

evidence it was about the information

that was available to everybody that was

involved in this case and by that I mean

me my co-defendants and the lawyers that

were defending and Prosecuting what was

available through the victims of the

crimes and you know just before and it's

important to mention just before I was

arrested and we talked about or I talked

about the headlines that were in the

newspapers that I was not privy to at

the time there were calls for the the

police to arrest the two white men and

one black man that were responsible for

these crimes and those detailed

descriptions of the perpetrators who

were involved in the murder in the

series of robberies came from the

victims of these crimes not just one

victim at one scene but the crimes I

just described at three different

locations each of the victims at those

scenes described

two white men and a black man one victim

went so far as to say one of the white

men had blue eyes and fair hair because

they saw that through the balaclava that

they were wearing and they were up close

this is not fleeting sort of CSI kind of

identifications where you can say out

where they may have made a mistake all

three victims have three completely

separate crimes had given descriptions

to the police which were then relayed in

the newspapers the news the world front

page you know I came face to face with

the kill for kicks gangs that were the

kind of headlines as Witnesses saw the

men attempting to burn the cars from one

of the robberies the two white men

standing by the car terrify me so I

called the police you know these were

Witnesses

outside of the victims who identified

white men so the fact that myself Brown

guy brown eyes dreadlocks my best mate

black guy brown eyes dreadlocks and my

third co-defendant who was arrested

slightly later than I was African black

guy

none of us fitted the descriptions that

the victims and the witnesses knew were

responsible for these crimes yeah I was

charged

I was tried I stood in the dock when the

victims came into court looked at me and

my co-defendants who still had these

dreadlocks and I'd had these dreadlocks

for years

looked at us in the dark

and knew must have known that we were

not responsible for the crimes that were

perpetrated against them

and yet

when they told the jury

that the descriptions of the men were

too white and one black their conviction

was not as it should have been

and by that I would argue that the

police started to undermine their story

to secure the convictions that they

needed to secure so when I talk about

and you asked the question and was I

hopeful at this point that

you know things would be

um successful at the trial I should

never have been charged let alone held

on remind in a prison within a prison in

Brixton for 18 months and let alone

dragged into the dock to face these

charges when everybody involved in the

case knew we could not and did not

commit these crimes so yes I was

confident when we were in the dark that

the 12 men and women that would judge us

would conclude that this is a racist

unjust trial and they would be on our

side but they weren't they convicted us

and I was destined to spend the rest of

my life in prison for the crimes I

didn't commit

that moment when you hear

the verdict

what what happens in your mind what how

did what's that moment like it's hard to

reflect back I know that being a young

volatile man I was even though I'd

learned some self-control and discipline

because I practice yoga in those 18

months of being banged up in a Cell for

23 hours a day that kept me going and

practicing Taekwondo and doing in cell

press-ups and all that so as well as

physically preparing my body physically

to withstand the onslaught of the trial

um when I was in that dark I think

I think again and I talk about those

seeds that were planted in me during

that interrogation time and what I

discovered during the 18 months that I

was in this prison within a prison I

think when that verdict came in

um as well as exploding and screaming

and shouting and my parents family and

supporters were angry

I just want you to fight everything and

everyone for what was happening to me

I'd already put up a lot of resistance

but there was a little [ __ ] that made

me believe that it just couldn't happen

they couldn't convince me to send me to

prison for crimes I didn't commit of

such a serious nature

um so as well as being volatile at that

very moment I continue to be volatile

for the next God knows how many years

and the only person

that suffered was me I was the only

person that suffered spending years in

isolation segregation being beaten

physically by prison guards who were not

responsible for my wrongful conviction

but they were the authorities keeping me

in prison even though that's their job

but I didn't recognize that at the time

so when I heard that verdict

it put a seed in me again that said nah

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let you do

this I'm not gonna sit back and suffer

this why should I why should my family

why should you get away with this no I'm

not going to allow that to happen and

that became that seed that grew me in

the years that followed and what was the

the sentence

I was sentenced to life imprisonment for

the murder

I was sentenced to 15 years for the

attempted murder

I was sentenced to 12 years for the

attempted murder aggravated robbery I

was sentenced to 12 years for the

assault on the guy that was with the guy

that died and another 12 years for the

final robbery

total in life plus 56 years I think if

my calculations are right but in reality

my sentence was life never to be

released because when you get a life

sentence if you maintain your innocence

and you don't conform to the regime and

jump through the Hoops of

accepting guilt you don't get released

not when I was locked up in prison I

think things may have changed now

because people recognize that the system

gets things wrong and people have been

released despite the fact they've

continuously protested their innocence

many years after you know their

convictions or or sentence has been

served life since in this country can

mean anything from 12 Years to 30 years

but I was destined to spend the rest of

my natural life in prison for crimes I

didn't commit

you know this um this podcast is

streamed in prisons did they tell you

I have a lot of supporters in prison

really I do uh actually I think people

admire the work that I do having come

out of prison from that predicament and

go on to try and advocate for prisons

prisoners but not just people who but

also representing the families and the

victims and everybody and anyone that's

involved

in this space because of the scars you

know seeing my physical stars but you

know there's a lot of kind of emotion on

internal scars that I carry from from

that time in prison so it's great to

know

that any prisoner listening to this

story sitting in a Cell believing that

they're innocent or even guilty but not

seeing a light at the end of the tunnel

take it from me there is a [ __ ] light

at the end of the tunnel if only you use

your time constructively if you sit on

your bed sitting yourself look at the

bars and don't do something to change

the person that put you in prison

especially the guilty ones they're just

going to end up

back in prison or your destiny is gonna

fall flat if you have any Destiny use

the time constructively that would be my

argument to any guy in prison listening

to this because you can you have at your

disposal well a lot of people in this

world don't have a nice time [ __ ] me

they have some time you know not just

for reflection but to use it

constructively I went to um I went to

one of the prisons that streams the

podcast so we did a deal with Her

Majesty's prison service where

um they have a screen in their cell and

they can watch this podcast in these

conversations and I got to go a couple

of weeks ago two weeks ago I think it is

maybe three weeks ago and see meet the

prisoners talk to them go into the side

their cells they told me about the

different episodes they've been watching

I get feedback as well from it on the

episodes which is amazing but it was um

it was a really you're totally wrong

what you said about the time thing I

could see how

they have the thing that so much of you

know in terms of time that we find in

our very busy lives we're always trying

to find a couple more minutes more they

were using their time in the most

amazing sometimes incredibly inspiring

ways I got handed business plans that I

literally have upstairs you know I saw

crafts things they'd made out of soap

that I couldn't believe were were

possible

um but it but but at the same time there

was um a real feeling that these these

young men were at a very important

Crossroads

and that's I think that's what sort of

stunned me into silence as I left was I

could see

Crossroads quite clearly and it goes

back to what you said at the start of

this conversation where I felt with some

of them that were that wanted to to

better themselves or at least told me

they wanted to bet themselves they were

lacking like role models in the context

back home or information on how to once

they returned to the environment they'd

come from how to create that life

and that was the thing that I really

struggled with I almost fought a

responsibility leaving there thinking

how can what can I do to help that young

kid who's handed me this business plan

which is amazing because clearly he

spent so much time on it but I know that

when he leaves the system he's going to

fall back into an environment where

there isn't entrepreneurs and there

isn't anybody to tell them how to start

that business or whatever it might be

you know support my Foundation that's

what you should yeah

but but the important thing is during my

time inside I I didn't study the law but

I got to know what the law was all about

because I needed to fight my wrongful

convictions by understanding the law

journalists were writing stories about

me being a monster the Sun newspaper was

calling for hanging to be brought back

and if they had their way I wouldn't be

sitting here talking to you today

because I would have been hung strung up

for a crime I didn't commit and then

pardoned 10 15 years later when they

recognize my innocence fortunately I was

shrewd enough and this would be my

message to prisoners to be shrewd enough

that I studied a correspondence

journalism course in prison because I

knew I needed the media to tell you and

other people on the outside world that I

was innocent so I studied the media to

understand how the media worked so that

I could plant stories in newspapers

National newspapers challenging issues

to do with prison or disclosure of

evidence or conviction so not

specifically about my case although that

was my ultimate motive it was about

understanding how journalists work and

then using those journalists to get my

message out there and so that would be

my argument that guy's giving you their

giving you their kind of business plan

why give it to you why not take that

business plan understand it themselves

and do it for themselves yes they do

need somebody to offer them a space or a

piece of opportunity but they need to do

it for themselves and that's what I

learned during those early years or late

years that I was in prison that you

cannot rely on one person to dig you out

or or help you out of the situation you

have to do it yourself which is why I

say these seeds that were planted in me

from the beginning they grew into the

resilience the determination you know

hope which is you know

everyone has a Story Don't They about

hope you know how we listen to other

people it's

um it's a self-determination that you

can only find when you when you discover

yourself in a situation that you cannot

control you have no control over but you

can control what you do for yourself

giving you their business plan hoping

that you will do something for them

would be great but you can't do it for

everyone so they have to do it for

themselves

if I'd asked you then say a couple of

years into your

um your sentence if you were going to

spend the rest of your life in prison

what would you have said to me

no

I was never going to spend the rest of

my life in prison for a crime I didn't

commit

I was not going to come out there in a

box

I was not going to let them kill me and

there have been and was occasions where

prison officers beat me so badly

the easiest way to get through it would

have been to die

um

I was not going to spend the rest of my

life in prison because I was going to

fight for my freed initially I thought

it was the physical fight that was going

to get me there confronting the prison

office as fighting prisoners you know

getting involved in volatile violent

situations was my way out that was

really just me

escaping the reality of the suffering

that I was going through inflicting pain

on others being inflicted pain on me was

a way of kind of dampening that pain

that suffering it wasn't until I started

to educate myself around the areas I

needed to educate myself and also grow

up and become more wiser and listening

to the wiser guys who had spent many

many years in prison and were telling me

don't do it the way you're doing it you

will not get out some high profile

miscarriage of Justice individuals who

have been successful in their own

campaigns were telling me you can't do

it the way that you're doing it you need

to you know get the tools pens and paper

I remember having my first tick tick

typewriter you know tick tick tick in

myself that's what we're dealing with

there was no internet there was no

emails there was no mobile phones or

anything like that I was doing it with

the raw materials you know tick tick

tick made a spelling mistake how came

the tip X I go through the tip X and sit

because I had time wait for it to

[ __ ] dry and then I could take over

it again and carry on writing the

document that I was writing so you can

imagine one piece of paper I'm writing

an application to European call 200

pages long can you imagine how long that

took me on a bloody typewriter because

there were no computers and no access to

anything but that typewriter I can't

remember who I got that typewriter from

or where it came from but I'm truly

grateful because not only did it give me

the tool to fight my wrongful conviction

but it allowed me

to understand myself and to learn from

myself how to use new words how to

articulate myself how to express myself

how to win an argument how to change a

situation

um and that's what I did in that time

that I was and and we're talking seven

eight years into my prison sentence now

so no I was never going to spend the

rest of my life in prison because I was

gonna fight for my freedom until I was

freed and I did and I won one of the

things I read was was how one day you

saw someone

had taken their own life in one of the

cells

um near yours

you know the

the burden of having to deal with you

know being convicted for a crime you

didn't commit is one thing but then

having have being exposed to these kind

of things in a as a Young Man

these are images that I imagine don't

ever sort of leave your

leave your mind unfortunately

no

um this was an elderly black guy been in

prison probably 20 years

for murder

he was hoping that he would get released

and he got a letter

um you know people ignored him he's the

kind of guy that you kind of walked past

most of the time and you might give him

a little bit of burn cigarettes for him

to smoke or something but he's one of

those guys that you kind of you know

he's there but he's not imposing or

anything

but he got that letter from the parole

board that denied him the next

opportunity to be released

and after 20 odd years in prison he knew

that he was destined to spend probably

another five or ten years in prison

um and he took his life

he hung himself and he killed himself

it's not the first time

that I saw somebody

die in fact I saved a guy's life

when I was in one of the last prisons

that I was in I became a gym orderly

somebody that helped other people PE

instructor you could say within prison

the only job I would do

and so I would be let out of myself

slightly earlier than most guys and I

was let out of myself doing my thing

going down to the gymnasium and I was

walking past a guy's cell and I saw his

legs dangling

and I run into the cell and I grabbed

his legs and I lifted him up and he was

you know doing as you do you you he was

shaking and I managed to get him down

didn't know what to do you know he

didn't die he recovered I went to the

gym

on my way back

he was quite rude actually because I

saved his life he wasn't grateful or

thankful

um and it was an awkward one because I

thought

I saved this guy's life I did what

anybody would have done

and the strange thing is he just got on

with it

he didn't

nobody knew nobody knew what he'd

attempted except me because I stopped

him from doing what he was doing I never

found out why he attempted to to take

his own life

but you live with those stories never

having an answer and that's prison for

you there are people in an horrific

things and you know they've done

horrific things and there are people in

there who shouldn't be there not because

they're innocent simply because they did

what they did to survive or to provide

for their family

but you never know why you never get the

real answers because some people are

just not prepared to share it

what was this about

the police paying some witnesses or

paying someone to

to give false evidence that I that I was

reading it was at the time that the

police were hunting this gang a reward

put up five thousand pounds in 1988 a

lot of money 20 000 pounds by The Daily

Mail making the reward 25 000 pounds

and so the

Theory and I say it's Theory because

we've never been given the documents to

prove what we know is true so the theory

is that one of the key Witnesses in my

case who gave evidence against me that

led to my convictions was one of my

ex-girlfriends alongside her was a white

guy who was a suspect at one point the

only person in the case with blue eyes

and fair hair which fitted the

description of the perpetrator but he

was a known police Informer and worked

on other cases with the police so there

was a conclusion that he

and this girlfriend of mine were paid

that reward money to give Force evidence

and that was part of the evidence that

we presented to the European Court of

Human Rights and they said that the

prosecution of the police and the Daily

Mail need to disclose whether these

Witnesses did get this money because if

they did it would explain their

incentive to tell lies so the girlfriend

for example just to put this into

context when I was on remand and she was

my alibi as well as a prosecution

witness so I was in bed making love with

her on the night that these crimes were

being committed I was in bed making love

with her at the very moment that the

murder was being committed some 40 miles

away from where I lived

despite that alibaya was still convicted

so if you think the identification issue

is

outrageous the fact that I was in bed

with a girlfriend making love at the

time the murder was committed she tells

the police that the prosecution except

that but then say it's a mystery how I

got to the scene of the crime there's no

mystery I wasn't there

she sent me a letter

when I was on remand in Brixton prison

apologizing for the lies that she told

and the lies that she told

for the police was that I left her at 1

30 in the morning after we made love the

murder had already been committed by 11

o'clock that night the first Robbie had

already been committed by half past 12

so even on her lies

it still didn't allow for me to be a

part of this gang and a part of these

crimes so when she sent me this letter

Brixton prison I presented it to my

defense the prosecution become aware of

it

and we believe that she was paid a

reward to

say that

she sent me that letter because she

wanted to help me and it wasn't true

so the reward we believe was paid to her

to tell lies for the police and to this

police Informer for him to tell lies

and we still believe that today despite

the fact that the prosecution using

public interest in community

certificates are these kind of secret

documents of still to this day never

disclosed who got that reward money I

wrote to the Daily Mail and said you

paid this money to these Witnesses who

have been told who have told lies you

paid this money to a witness who was a

key suspect and could be responsible for

these crimes surely there is an onus and

a responsibility on you the Daily Mail

to disclose this information and they

never did to this day

and did you ever write to her and ask

her if she received the money no I

didn't know how to and I didn't

I didn't feel that was that was

necessary I I knew she lied she knew she

lied

um we got when the rough Justice program

was made they secretly recorded the guy

on their show admitted that he conspired

with the police this was one of the key

pieces of new information that rough

Justice broadcast but they secretly

recorded this witness admitting to them

that he'd fabricated evidence for the

police in the M25 case he didn't know

that they were secretly recording that

conversation for the program they were

making about my case and so that in

itself became a key piece of evidence

but I never

from my conviction to this day had any

contact with the ex-girlfriend or that

guy who we know told lies

I read this other quite quite funny in

some ways quite perverse in other ways

story about a chaplain

you know what I'm gonna say yes I do

bizarre things happen in prison with

bizarre people and we benefit from it

I mean you can tell the story

for those who want to hear this story is

about a chaplain right so prison is a

place where you don't have conjugal

visits I.E you know married men and

women who are in prison are not entitled

to have any intimacy with their husband

wife girlfriends when they're in prison

that's just not how it works in this

country in other countries it does but

in this country it doesn't but there are

some people in prison including this

chaplain in this particular prison who

had sympathy for prisoners he had an

understanding that intimacy an

opportunity for intimacy was limited and

so

um if and we prisoners knew this if you

could get your loved one outside

girlfriend outside or someone you wanted

to have sex with outside write the

chaplain a letter to say to the chaplain

that you are thinking about dumping your

boyfriend or you get that letter and

take it to the chaplain and say I've

just received this Dear John a Dear John

being a letter from a girlfriend or a

loved one outside saying that they don't

want anything more to do with you and

that you need a private visit a visit

that is not in the visitings hall with

everybody else but maybe in a you know

quieter place and so this chaplain was

known for helping people out in this way

so he would allow people to book this

private visit where they would have

their

um their loved one come in their

girlfriends or their wives come in

but what he had was a hole in the wall

and what he did is he used to spy on

people who were in those private visits

who took those opportunities to have a

quick bit of sex and he was spying on

him and they discovered that he had this

hole in the wall and was watching

prisoners have sex with their wives or

girlfriends during these encounters now

I would argue that most prisoners

wouldn't care less because I was one of

those prisoners and after 10 years for

the first time I was able to have

intimacy to the point where I came in

you know nanoseconds kind of thing I

know I detailed too much but the reality

is is when you've been wanking for so

many years and you've not had any

intimacy it is a real hard thing not to

not come in seconds but but to rekindle

those kind of relationships you know how

to become intimate with somebody when

you've been deprived of that for so long

how you and as I said at the beginning

of this you know I wasn't somebody who

had people coming up on the visit me big

hugs and Cuddles so it was a real real

challenge just one of the challenges

that you face at the end of being in

prison and there are many many more the

psychological as well as the the

physical but I was privileged to be in

one of those rooms on one of these

occasions would I have reported that

chaplain that he was watching me no I

wouldn't I would have used it to get

another visit but unfortunately somebody

did grass on him and so he was removed

from the prison system and that

privilege that the prison officers

didn't know about

stopped was it was he a priest or

something was he a he was a priest who

worked in the prison and how is he

getting getting these women in so this

was one of your ex-girlfriends so he

wasn't he wasn't smuggling I mean or

anything like that so they would come

through the normal visiting channels but

you would have approval from the priest

or the chaplain to have this visit not

in the normal visiting Hall but in the

chapel as a religious no it's not even

religious but they have a chapel in

prison where people can go and they can

practice their religions but they would

have rooms in there

um you know it might be his office in on

this occasion it was like a communal

area that the chaplains see and people

coming in to visit him on official visit

would sit down and have a cup of tea and

whatever I was in the room with my

kind of pen pal girlfriend if you like

at the time

um I'm going to give you the graphic

detail because it's important so you you

know we're kind of doing it we're kind

of like I'm kind of going at it that no