My work now is helping people to

optimize performance, get a good

relationship with them self, finding a

peace, happiness, confidence. Professor

Steve Peters, he's a world-leading

psychiatrist, arguably one of the most

famous, renowned, and important of our

time.

You will come out the other side much

better. People do recover from broken

relationships. People don't know what

the next relationship will be. Not

everybody is the same.

What tends to happen is people either

don't recognize they're getting stressed

and it becomes chronic and they've got

these behaviors which are damaging to

them as people think stress is where we

wringing our hands and panicking and

that's not really true. Stress comes in

all different forms and often isn't

recognized.

Even for people in a much more serious

situation where they become suicidal,

you can tell them with honesty there is

always a future and things do change and

feelings do move. And we have to accept

that reality. We cannot know everything

about the person we're with and if our

chimp switch are panicky a bit and want

guarantees and what then we we're going

down the wrong path and we have to tell

our chimp you can't do this.

[Music]

Professor Steve Peters, he's a

world-leading psychiatrist, arguably one

of the most famous, renowned, and

important of our time. He's also a

doctor and a hugely successful author.

Some of you, most of you, will know him

from his best-selling book, The Chimp

Paradox, which has sold millions of

copies worldwide and that's a book that

actually saved the lives of some people

very close to me. He's worked with

elite-level athletes including Steven

Gerrard and the England football team

and Ronnie O'Sullivan, gold medal

Olympians like Sir Chris Hoy and

Victoria Pendleton, as well as business

leaders and CEOs and he helps them

overcome what he calls mental

dysfunction. He's helped them optimize

for performance and he's really helped

them get out of their own way. And in

many respects in life, we're all in our

own way. Steve's invented this

groundbreaking concept called the chimp

model and it focuses on how there's

these kind of three parts to our brain.

The first part is called the chimp,

which is our sort of desire to be

impulsive and irrational and emotional

and short-term. The second part is what

he calls the human and you'll hear him

talk about this, which is logical and

rational and thinks in terms of facts

and thinks things through in the long

term. And the third part is what he

calls the computer, which is our set of

core values and beliefs. Steve's work

focuses on how we can manage and control

the interaction between these three

parts of our brain and we all have these

three compartments within our brains.

And if you can understand them, if you

can understand these three elements, it

gives you greater power to utilize them

to be happy, successful, however you

define it, and to live a much more

fulfilled life.

Man, this episode gave me so many

personal epiphanies, so many sort of

penny drop moments, and so many personal

realizations. It's one of the podcasts

that I I I know I'll reflect on going

forward and I know for sure will change

my life forever. So this is one where I

implore you to listen to the entire

conversation cuz I think it will change

your life, too.

So without further ado, sorry, that was

a very long intro. I'm Steven Bartlett

and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope

nobody's listening, but if you are,

then please keep this to yourself.

[Music]

Professor Steve Peters, thank you for

for joining me today. I've been a big

fan of your work as has a lot of people

close to me in my life for a long, long

period of time.

Where I wanted to start with you is with

with a question, which is

how do you define yourself

professionally? And I've read, you know,

I've read about the diverse amount of

work you've done across multiple sectors

with sports stars, with leaders, with

with the NHS, with the the fire service,

with

you know, broad spectrum of people. But

what is the sort of basis of your work

and how do you define what you do?

Okay, well, thanks for inviting me. Um

Coming from medical background, I define

myself as a doctor who is specialized in

the mental health

area of medicine.

Uh and then moved a little bit sideways

into just mentoring and helping people

to gain understanding and insights into

the way that their mind functions.

And then applying that into whatever

they take me. So effectively, I'm an

educator

um with a medical basis. But I still

have patients I would treat, but the

generally my work now is helping people

to optimize performance or get a good

relationship with them self,

um finding a peace, the kind of things

people want, happiness, confidence, or

even things like high-performing teams.

So a vast spectrum, but the the basis of

all of this is do you understand what's

going on inside your head? Do you

understand yourself?

And what's the cuz

some people are easily confused between

psychiatry and psychology. What's the

distinction as you see it? Well, the

distinction is that psychologists are

expert in usually a specific area within

psychology. So educational psychologists

would look at how we educate children

and and adults and how they learn best,

whereas you might get a clinical

psychologist or work with someone who's

got maybe depressive illness and look at

the cognitive aspects of that, the way

we think and behave. Um a

psychiatrist is a medical doctor, so we

tend to treat mental illness as opposed

to dysfunction. Mhm. So mental illness

is where we know that the in simplistic

terms, the brain isn't functioning well.

Something is going wrong. Often it's

transmitter systems. So we treat them.

Um but when we might find as a

psychiatrist that it's dysfunction, so

then we would do overlap work with what

psychologists would do. Right, got you.

Um you your book, The Chimp Paradox,

really focused on psychological

dysfunction. Yes. Um and was that born

out of your that was born out of your

work in psychiatry?

Yes, I mean, when I was in the NHS as a

consultant for many years, um people

come to the door who had mental illness,

which then we would treat and and

support, help them get them on their

feet. Um but also a significant number

of people came through the door who

didn't need treatment per se. They did

They had The mind was fully functional

and operating well. They didn't know how

to operate it. So because they didn't

operate well with the mind, it was

creating a lot of emotional distress.

And so they would present as if it were

an illness, but in my my book, it wasn't

an illness. So I worked with that

dysfunction and out of that work was

born the neuroscience basis of the the

chimp model to say, "Look, let's have a

look at the brain and see what is the

brain actually doing and how did it

develop and how can we apply that to you

today?"

I want to go down these two paths. I

want to go down the the mental health

path and then also the mental

dysfunction path. So if we start with

the mental health path, um there's

there's this kind of prevailing

narrative in culture at the moment that

mental health disorders are on the

increase and that people are getting

more and more depressed and more and

more anxious. Um in your view, is that

is that accurate?

This is a complex topic. Uh the answer

would be that we're more aware of it, so

it's probably reported more, but

um mental illness per se

will can sometimes be born out of mental

dysfunction. So if we get stressed in

our work say and we don't manage it well

or in relationships and we don't manage

that well, then we know that given time

for many individuals, the

neurotransmitters in the brain start to

malfunction. Right. So we can create

effectively an illness by not managing

the mind well. Alternatively, it can

spontaneously malfunction. So people can

have a great life, look after them self,

yet still suddenly go into a clinical

depression because the system has

failed, much like say a thyroid might

fail. Haven't done anything wrong, it's

just the system has failed.

And is the the the the changing world we

live in, the more sort of digitalized

world where I don't know our lives are

being I guess more optimized for I guess

productivity and um

optimized against things like exercise

for example. You know, I can order my

lunch by clicking a button now and I can

meet dates just by swiping on my phone.

Um is it your belief that that changed

world, the a more digital world, the

more social media-centric world, the

world we live in today, is more

conducive with mental illness?

I think again I have to talk in broad

terms. Everybody's unique, which means

that somebody will find that really

advantageous to just press a button and

the lunch arrives and they don't need

that people interaction. We're all on a

spectrum. The vast majority of us are

built to interact. We are gregarious by

nature and we like people around us and

we like to have relationships. So

clearly, if somebody's isolated in an

office or working from home, then they

will miss the aspects of they don't

actually compensate in some way which

satisfies their need for this

interaction, then it's likely they will

start to become distressed. So in that

sense, I think because most of us are

gregarious and we're more and more

isolated, uh if we don't make steps to

change that round, people will find they

get more stressed and more anxiety will

appear and more clinical depression may

appear.

Yeah, I asked that question just cuz I'm

I'm I'm I'm unsure as you said said at

the start of your answer whether it's

just because of awareness has increased

around mental illness or if um the world

we live in now is make is not meeting us

I guess our fundamental human needs. I

think it's a bit of everything and I

think therefore researchers will look at

the idea that for example, social media

has a massive input, which it wasn't

there. So we've got back 20 years and

there wasn't social media as such. And

now it's become very prominent in many

people's lives and we know that most of

us don't respond well to criticism and

and if it's public criticism, then we

really don't respond well. So that can

be an extremely destructive force on

people.

However, if people use social media

appropriately and and are able to block

out any of these negative comments that

people make, then they'll probably find

it an advantageous thing to actually

communicate with friends and family. So

again, it's it's not so much what's

happening in society, it's how we

interact with it and learn what works

for us as individuals. So it's stopping

and getting time to think, what are my

needs? And a lot of people don't really

know that. You have to discover them.

And then how do I put them in place that

work for me?

And on that point of needs as it relates

to sort of mental

good mental health, um are you able to

point out fundamental things that we all

need to have or things that are most

conducive to generally broadly with good

mental health?

Yeah, so if you came to me and you said

right, can we just do a like a a bit of

a psychological profile? Let me have a

look at my life and see how I'm going,

then

often people are not what we call great

historians. They don't give me

information. I've got to sort of pull

the information out with the appropriate

questions.

And the areas yes, I would touch on. So

first of all, I would certainly look at

the relationship you have with yourself.

What's your own self-image, self-worth,

self-confidence. I would like to see

where you stand in those areas. Cuz we

start with you. If if someone's in a

good place, then it's likely they'll

cope with the world. But if someone's

not in a good place with themself and

within themselves, then it's unlikely

they'll cope with the world because your

starting point is not good.

And when I've done that, then we look at

things like relationships. So you want

to see what kind of relationships do you

particularly need or want at this point

in your life? And what kind of

relationships have you got? And are you

maximizing them? Are they dysfunctional?

You know, is it to do with the

communication between you? We look at

communication.

But apart from that, I'll I'll go to

fundamental drives.

You know, do you recognize the drives

you have? And the obvious ones are

eating drives,

the drive for sex, for security, for

territory. We'll look at how you apply

those because these are drives that all

of us have to greater or less extent.

But sometimes it's hidden drives.

So one of the ones is a purpose.

Recognition.

You know, a feeling of value

in what you do or who you are. So these

are drives we all have, but often they

get neglected because people don't

recognize them. And once you actually

point them out and you say, well, how

are you going to fulfill these? Then we

can work on what works for you. So I

don't tell people. I don't have like a

recipe book. I I can't do that. I know

that people can. I can't. What I like to

do is work with you as a team. And you

say to me, this is what my needs are. I

challenge that to try and make sure it's

really clear.

And then we look at what you think will

work for you. Maybe I'll come up with

ideas and suggestions. I'll challenge

beliefs you've got.

And then we work together to see what

are your outcome objectives. What do you

want to achieve in the next 3 months, 6

months, 12 months?

And look at what's realistic. So it's

it's quite a detailed

almost like an MOT on the person's mind.

Make sure everything's up and

functioning.

Two things I was super intrigued there

by is that the idea of self-image and

what that really really means.

Cuz I've heard the term of, you know,

self-image. I guess that's how you see

yourself.

Yeah. Um insecurities and all? Or is

insecurities uh

impact how you see yourself? Well, this

is where

20-something years ago now,

in the early '90s, it struck me as a

younger doctor that

um

the mind isn't one entity working. So

when I ask people about self-image, I'm

now going to split the mind a bit and

say, what is the self-image that you

feel you would like to have and that you

are aiming to to present to the world?

And what's the genetic self-image that

your mind is giving you and the mind

interpreting? Hence I started saying you

have this circuitry which is rational

and logical looking at the facts. And

you have a circuitry which is

emotionally based. So it's not logic and

emotion. It's logically based with

emotion and it's emotion based with

logic.

And we don't control that. So if I try

and That's detail. I'd have to listen to

that one again.

Is What I'm saying is we have control

over the the circuitry which I call the

human circuits. And your self-image then

might be that I'm a compassionate guy,

that I'm a trustworthy person, that I

always give 100%. This is what your

self-image could be when I discuss with

you and your circuits are responding.

However,

if you've moved the blood supply and

oxygen uptake into what I'm calling the

chimp circuits, circuits which are quite

primitive but think, you don't have any

control over that. So they will generate

thinking.

And the chimp circuits may give a very

different answer.

Because they're much more likely to be

emotional and say how you feel about

yourself rather than reality.

So the feeling could be the reality, but

it's it's likely not to be.

So we get two images from two different

circuits. And what is informing the

chimp?

Right, so the chimp, when it starts off

in life, this is getting heavy

neuroscience. As we develop in the

fetus, the the chimp circuitry, which is

the orbitofrontal cortex, heads it up.

This is a part of our brain just above

our eyes, starts to think, but it thinks

in an emotional way. So it it reacts to

things. It doesn't think ahead with

consequence. It reacts impulsively and

it relies on the center of the brain,

the rest of the limbic system. It's part

of the limbic

to actually store this our experiences

memory.

So for example, if a child gets told off

at the age of two, it's likely be to be

in chimp circuitry. Then if it wants to

avoid being told off again, it will

conceal what it does.

So if it's eaten a chocolate biscuit,

it'll just

try not get caught. Okay, because it's

impulse will to be eat the chocolate

biscuit, but then it will learn, but if

you do, you can get caught, you get told

off. So therefore conceal being caught.

So this is impulsive and not thinking

long-term consequences or values or

because this circuitry just does

impulsive how can I get what I want?

And get away with it with the least

emotion or painful emotion.

Whereas what happens when we're around

two is a secondary system, the human

circuits start to develop. So these run

from the top of our head, almost like a

vertical one down into the center of the

brain. And this part, the dorsolateral

prefrontal cortex, we have control of.

This is our active thinking conscious

awareness of things like future time. So

we look at consequence. If I steal the

biscuit,

what will happen? Is there an

alternative?

And now our values start to come into

play. It's not the right thing to do.

Whereas the chimp brain doesn't work

with values.

It has values, but they're not our

values.

So we then start having this battle in

our heads.

But that circuitry doesn't come in till

we're 2 years old approximately. So

that's why we don't have memory before

two because it's not actually

functioning. And it stores factual

memory rather than emotional memory.

So when you say what informs the chimp,

the chimp has got all this intuition.

And intuition is previous experience of

what happens.

So as it's going to take the chocolate

biscuit, the chimp's brain will remind

it, this may not be a good thing. It's

pleasurable, but it may not be good. So

that generally the child now feels on

edge. They know what they want to do,

but they're on edge and they don't know

why they're on edge

until after think it through and then

the chimp will remind them, you're

getting this feeling because you could

get caught.

So the way that system works, it gives

you a feeling.

You interpret the feeling and then you

make a decision.

But it's based on feelings.

What was the prehistoric

use case for the chimp? Well, the chimp

brain, I mean, I I used that because

when I looked like 30 years ago, I

looked at the human brain and then

compared it to the hominids and spoke to

specialists in the hominid group who

were saying that the chimpanzee's brain

is is almost the same as ours in these

particular circuits. So that's why we

find them entertaining because they

demonstrate what we do. Yeah. You know,

and and they will be devious and they

will be quite violent. They're also

compassionate, but they're all impulsive

and not thought through well.

And when I looked at that with the other

great apes, so the orangutan, the

bonobo, the gorilla, they didn't

actually have the same circuitry as the

chimp.

And I couldn't wait for the research, so

I jumped the gun a bit and called it the

chimp paradox because in the last two,

three years, it's been published now to

show that the chimp brain and our brain

is closer than we thought.

In the way that we think with that

particular circuitry.

So that's why I picked the chimp, but

it's seen in all animals and it's it's a

defense mechanism to protect you.

So obviously eating the biscuits a good

survival mechanism. The fact you might

get caught is incidental. You hope you

don't, but you have to eat. So these

circuits are based to help us to

survive, so they give us all our drives,

but they also give us experience of what

happens when we act in a certain way.

And if it doesn't work, we change our

reaction. Right.

And you said drives there, that was the

second point that I was intrigued by is

how how one goes about understanding

their drives. I think

um when I in in the world we live in,

especially you know, the social media

world, it feels like our drives and our

values are somewhat um sometimes handed

to us and we don't even know that

something isn't our true sort of

intrinsic driver or values. But because

of I don't know, a desire to be to fit

in or to be to gain approval from

people, we take it up as a value of our

own or or we say, if we're asked, that

that's something that drives us, but

it's not. So we might say we want to be

we want to land a gig or we want to be a

public speaker or whatever, but really

probably underpinning that is our desire

to be to get recognition and to to be

loved, I don't know. Okay. But how do

you go about understanding what your

true drivers are in life and not the

things that you say just to

Yeah, this is where when I looked at

this, as I say, a long time back, you

start to see that if you ask people,

which is what I I

to put away everything and just get a

blank piece of paper. That's where I

start. My starting point is always write

down the perfect person you want to be.

Because this now excludes any of the

drives and a lot of what you're talking

about is actually behaviors attached to

drives. They're not true drives. Drives

are things like the need to eat, the

need to have security.

Uh these are drives. The need to be a

parent. And we have these compulsive

driving forces within us that get us out

of our seat and make us find something.

Uh whereas getting approval from people

is actually based in the orbital frontal

cortex, the chimp again, where it's

terrified of being excluded from the

troop. So a chimpanzee in the wild must

be part of a troop, otherwise the

leopard's waiting. Yeah. So lots of eyes

protect you. So the chimpanzee has an

inbuilt need to be with other chimps.

And in order to do that, it must prove

to the other chimps that it's worthy.

Mhm. Cuz if it isn't, they could exclude

it, which would be death. So we we carry

that drive still. We need to be

approved. The problem is uh the

chimpanzee's got it right, we've got it

wrong. The chimpanzee recognizes it any

only wants approval from its immediate

troop. Whereas we actually try and get

approval from the whole world.

You know, so one person on social media

tells the world they did not like us and

we can potentially fall apart instead of

saying actually they're not in my troop,

so it's not important. Mhm. So it's

important this is an example of how

giving insights people can start

recognizing actually find your own

troop. Cuz that's what you need to focus

on, not the rest of the world. You'll

never please them. Mhm. You know,

they're not part of that.

So

drives you have to look at and we have

I've gone through the list of this. And

then we say to you for example, how

strong is your troop drive? We all have

one, that's the need to belong to a

group of people or maybe just to one

person.

But generally we like to have a number

of people around us. So it's looking and

saying how strong is that drive and are

you fulfilling fulfilling it correctly?

And and also when you've got your what

I'm calling the troop of people around

you, are you actually looking after the

troop and maintaining it and using it

appropriately? Mhm.

Makes a lot of sense. I've sat here with

a lot of guests and some of them have

tens of millions of subscribers and

followers online and they still uh

remarkably they still um pretty much I'd

say 95% of occasions

can have their day ruined by one comment

on a YouTube video on Instagram per post

and it does it does like

it does so blow my mind a little bit

that

um

you can have such a big tribe and still

one Yeah, I get that. But if you think

that um we society, we're told basically

to respect everyone, which is correct

from our human brain. Our chimps are

actually saying just close in and get

the people around you that matter.

And please them and look at their

approval. And that's what our friends

do. They'll be critical, but it's it's

very constructive and done with love. So

we accept criticism from friends. We

know they're on side. But if you start

expanding that inappropriately to the

whole world, then you're going to

stretch your chimp to pieces. Because

what you're saying is I think it's

really important that that person

approves of me as well. So again, I look

at the reality of life and say, let's

just get in your factual memory some

real truths of life. And people may

disagree, but I I ask them what do you

believe? Cuz truths are relative to us.

So one of the things we know is and I'm

I'm give statistic as a loose statistic.

80% of people approve of us.

20% love us.

60% just approve.

And 20% are just not pleasant people.

And if we go around believing that we're

really going to make them into pleasant

people or we're really going to

please them, you're going to lose. So

you have to step back and get that fact.

And then you don't worry if 20% of the

people don't like you or make critical

remarks. You just dismiss it and look at

the 20% who do love you, who are going

to give you constructive criticism.

And respect you. So again, it's that

learning that your drive is out of

control.

You're allowing your drive for the troop

to extend to the world and that's not

appropriate. It never was meant to do

that. So it's an inappropriate use of

this primitive drive we have.

So tell me through that that process

then. So I get a blank piece of paper. I

write down who I want to be.

Yeah. Um I'd say things like I want to

be and correct me where I'm

That's okay. I'm wrong here, okay? Cuz I

You won't be wrong.

But if I say I want to be um I want to

achieve great things, is that a drive?

No, that's not a drive. That's something

you hope for. Yeah, okay.

So we get the terminology right because

if you hope for that but accept it may

not happen, that you know you're working

with the human circuit, which is logical

and rational. So we hope to get like I

work with elite athletes, which is a

privilege. And they hope to get say an

Olympic medal.

And they hope for that. They accept they

may not get this. Even if you're on form

on the day, somebody may be better or

you may make an error. So as long as you

have that, then it shouldn't be

stressing you. Okay. It would be okay.

But if you move into saying I have to

get an Olympic medal, we're now moving

into the chimp circuits. Yeah. Cuz

that's not true. Yeah, you don't have

to. You know, you don't have to. You

know? But if somebody absolutely says to

me, you don't get it. If I don't get

that, then life's not worth living.

I'm not going to argue. What I'm saying

is that's a choice you're making and you

must also accept the consequence.

So I I can't put I can't change that.

So so when you start your list, what I'm

really asking you for is you What are

your character traits? Mhm.

So so discipline. Yeah, I mean again, I

would test the waters cuz I don't know

what you're going to say here. You're in

the spotlight. I I'll just do a quick

one for you just to say Do you Would you

like to be a really nice good person or

would you like to be successful? You can

only be one of them, which would you

prefer?

Um a really nice good person.

I know where I stand with you now. So we

have to now make sure that you

understand that's the prime reason that

we're going to do the work is to get you

to be the person that you want to be.

This is the good news. Mhm. If you write

on the piece of paper the perfect person

you want to be. So give me some more

character traits. Traits. All the things

that come to mind are the impact I want

to have on those that encounter me.

So Right. So you you you want to be

inspirational. Yeah. Yeah, I I guess

that is but but also just like um

empathetic and compassionate

Okay, brilliant.

You want to be an empathic guy, a

compassionate guy, inspirational. You're

probably going to add if we go through

this and have time, honesty, integrity,

trustworthy, you know, respectful. You

When you've done all this, this is

really crucial and it is lightbulb

moments.

If you think about this, that if you had

control of that part of your brain,

which you have, and there was no

interference from the rest of the brain,

then that's exactly how you would be in

life. True. That is you. So what I'm

saying is the reality is fantastic. That

is you. You It's not who you hope to be,

it is you.

It's not a myth. It's neuroscience. It's

you. What we're now saying is that

doesn't present to the world because now

your chimp and the computer system, the

backup to both human and chimp, now

impose

all the things and so the world might

see something different. So you said to

me I want to be compassionate.

And I walk in and say, I've had a really

long journey today. All went wrong. And

you're busy and you just get irritated

and say, for goodness sake, stop

moaning.

And then afterwards you think, well,

that wasn't very compassionate. So I'm

not compassionate. But that's that's

misunderstanding the neuroscience. You

were always compassionate because your

intention was always to say, sorry Steve

that you've had a rough journey.

You know, because obviously it's

important or otherwise I wouldn't be

telling you. I mean you still might want

to say just stop moaning after a while,

but it's done nicely. But what happened

is your chimp is saying, I don't need to

deal with this. It's doing my head in.

So I'll just have a go and that will

stop him. And there you see this

immediate reaction without thought of

consequence.

So then our rapport fails a bit cuz I

think, pooh, not nice guy this.

But actually, when I understand the

science, I think he's probably a nice

guy. His chimp wasn't very good there.

Yeah. That's very different to you going

away at the end of the day thinking,

what's wrong with me? Why was I lacking

in compassion? The answer was get the

neuroscience right. You've never moved

position. You're always a compassionate

guy who's trustworthy and honest and so

on. Your chimp has interfered.

Now this is very critical. I expand on

two points here. Cuz the listeners are

going to go up.

Hang on.

If this is not an excuse model.

100% I'm tough on people.

It's not an excuse model. You're 100%

responsible for managing the chimp. So

you need an apology.

So when you know the chimp's been a bit

brisk or rude, you're going to stop and

say, I apologize. You are responsible.

So I'm not saying blame everything on

your chimp. I'm not saying that.

And the second point is you gave me an

answer there by saying I want to be this

compassionate guy. And people say surely

everyone writes the same list.

Absolutely not. In the '90s when I

started to really pull this together and

was looking at the neuroscience.

Clearly as you probably know, I worked

in the field of forensics. And if you

take a typical person, so we'll take

who's typical person and we say, what

would you give? You gave me the right

list. Peaceful, calm, you'll go through

integrity, honesty, compassion. That is

really common on the list. However,

when you get to the psychopath,

they wouldn't put these. I When I asked

them, they did not put honesty. They did

not put compassion. They were not

relevant.

They had a very different list of who

they would ideally like to be.

And it wasn't pleasant.

It was all about power. It was all about

ego.

These are what are in critical This what

I'm going to be. So actually the human

in that person is not the good guy.

I used to say it's often the chimp in

them that's the nice guy. The actual

human's not so nice at all. So it isn't

a good guy, bad guy. That is not at all

what the model is. It's saying you we

all have these systems. Let's find out

who we are, what kind of chimp we've got

cuz they're spread in characteristic,

and then what have we got in our

computer?

I know this is really heavy going. No,

not.

I hope this

No, it makes perfect sense. It's my

brain is spiraling off into loads of

different examples where that that is

true. And the one of the first ones that

came to mind was about like leadership.

And in the in the the business world,

and I was thinking about the likes of

Steve Jobs. And you hear about these

leaders that are maybe they appear to be

led more by their chimp.

Because they are incredibly short all

the time. They are

they seem to be incredibly emotional.

However, when you reflect on what

they've achieved in their careers, they

also like even you know Sir Alex

Ferguson's that maybe an interesting

example. They appear to be

either using the chimp as a as a

intentionally or out of control.

Yeah, I mean again,

there's nothing wrong with the chimp.

People said to me oh you you paint this

picture of this like terrible being in

our heads. And I've never said this. And

when I wrote the chimp paradox, it's in

the title.

I said it's your best friend. You know,

my chimp is my best friend. That doesn't

mean I always agree with him. I know

I've said to people I see him as this

inept best friend who doesn't do the

best things for me at times, but he

means well. So I know this part of my

brain is 100% on side. It just operates

in a way that maybe I don't agree with

at times.

But it does I learn to communicate with

it so that I can get it on side and

harness its power. So the chimp is the

part of brain that gives a sense of

humor. The human doesn't possess that.

It's the chimp that recognizes anomalies

and makes us laugh.

It's the chimp that has intuition. We

haven't got that. The chimp reads body

language. We haven't got that. So our

human circuits fail. So this

complimentary circuit when it works

together, we know even if you go to the

corporate world, that business decisions

that are made with logic and emotion are

the best decisions. And that's

emphasized in neuroscience that we know

decision-making by both human and chimp

circuits together are the best

decisions. Mhm. So you use your chimp's

intuition and its enthusiasm and its

drives,

but you harness them and you channel

them. So you learn which is what this is

all about, mind management. Mhm. So you

start to know I've got this amazing

machine now, but it's almost like a

living machine. I'm I'm going to get it

on side and help. So I agree these

people the chimp will drive them to be

successful. I'd like to think that my

chimp's really very very strong. Mhm.

But it's on board because I manage it

and it knows I I'm not against my

emotions and my my my emotionally based

brain. I'm not against them. I use them.

I I think what's the message they're

telling me.

So any any emotions we get are messages.

Mhm. They're not meant to be engaged

with. They're meant to be worked on so

that you actually use them.

Quick one. I talked to you guys about

Huel a lot. So I'm going to do a quick

intermission to tell you about a bit of

a change that's happened in the last 2

months in my life. As you guys know, my

favorite Huel product historically has

been the ready-to-drink, which is these

bottles here. They are nutritionally

complete. However, recently since Huel

introduced the Huel protein, this now

plays a huge role in my diet. The salted

caramel flavor protein from Huel, which

is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins

and minerals and 20 g of protein, um

serves two roles in my life now. First

thing I do when I wake up in the morning

is I have a glass. And then at night

time, after I've been to the gym,

straight off to the gym, I have a glass.

It tastes amazing. If you're going to

try it, follow my instructions here.

Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in

a blender, put on the salted caramel

protein, and it tastes like a delicious

smoothie. I've already gone through one

tub of this. I'm actually on my second

tub and I've got two more tubs to go

before I'm going to reorder more. But

genuinely, the salted caramel flavor,

maybe because I have a liking for salted

caramel, for me has been a game-changer.

I wanted to talk about exactly that

topic, which is like managing your

emotional reactions.

Yeah. Um across different facets of

life. And I think

um I'll get let me just give you an

example of a situation that I went

through that I wrote about in my book.

So I'm just going to be completely

honest cuz that's what I tend to do on

this podcast. Um I broke up with a girl

and um like 2 days later I found out

that she'd slept with somebody else.

Mhm. And when I even though I'd broken

up with her when I when I read the

message that she'd slept with somebody

else,

my brain Yeah.

Revenge.

Message her.

Destroy her life. That's what my brain

said to me. But I

um and and I'm at a place in my life

where I feel quite

secure in myself image, let's say. I

don't feel particularly insecure. I'm

I'm I'm I'm a confident person. But even

I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own

um

desire to react emotionally in that

situation. Okay. Um and really

interestingly as well, it was actually

my friend calling me. I went to the gym.

I thought maybe I'll go to the gym and

that'll like clear my head.

It was my friend calling me and and this

I don't know where this fits in

psychiatry, but my friend said to me,

"Steve, just remember you broke up with

her. She's probably doing this to um

make herself feel better and to you know

rebound or whatever."

But um that was one of those key moments

where I was like, "God, like

the damage you can do if you don't know

how to control

that like primitive urge to just uh

Okay. You've covered a lot of ground

there.

Yeah. That could be an hour's work here.

So I'm going to need to take it back and

then try and go very steadily to try and

drive home. There's a lot of areas. One

is first of all, what would you expect

somebody's mind to do confronted with

the same situation? What would you

expect them to do?

Probably the same thing. Exactly. So

nothing abnormal happened. There wasn't

a problem. Yeah. You're saying this is

absolutely healthy and normal, but maybe

not helpful. Yeah. And what you really

said, because you've told me this, if it

wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't

have mentioned it. So clearly, your

human brain is saying, "I don't want to

get revenge. That's not what I want.

What I want is to just be calm and

collected, accept the reality of it, and

move on."

Unfortunately, we have to learn now how

the mind works.

So it's like saying you went to the gym.

So therefore you're a fitness man. If I

said to you, "Right, I've never been to

a gym for 30 years. I'm going to go

tonight and at the end of the day I'm

going to be super fit."

And you laugh because you know that's

ridiculous. It's not the way the body

works. So we have to now look at another

aspect. Now we know it's normal. How

does the mind work when we get a really

nasty shock and something which is

devastating? So the

the reason that chimp is there and the

reason we're here

is for us to be safe and present the

next generation to the world. That's

what the chimp's agenda is. So what

happened there is the generation that

you thought you were going to get was

taken away from you. So this is

devastating. So we expect you to be

devastated. We also expect you to accept

the mind is going to now grieve and

it'll take approximately 3 months, give

or take. Are you talking about

heartbreak here?

Yeah, you've got to grieve.

Yeah. So the the mind has a rule on the

way it deals and processes grief. I

can't speed that up. So if some like if

I meet you at night and I say, "Right,

I'm going to get you out of it." I'm

going to fail. Because you have to go

through these ripples and and work it

through. So your your human brain can do

it in seconds cuz that's logic. She's

gone. She was dishonest. It's a good

thing she's gone now. No more wasted

time. Yep, that's easy. But the

emotional chimp brain has got to process

it. It cannot do it overnight. So you've

got to now allow a round of 12-week

process and you're going to go through

various stages of grief in the loss of

what is a very significant relationship.

And on top of that, there was another

insult. It wasn't just she said it's not

for me. She slept with someone else. So

that is really going to get your chimp.

You know, we expect it now to be

devastated. And your chimp's reaction,

some people wouldn't, uh but it's common

that it wants revenge.

It wants to say, "Right, if you did this

to me, you're going to suffer now."

Um

In reality, what you just said by your

nodding is that's not what I want. I

just want to move on and accept it

wasn't for me. She did what she did.

That's her problem, not yours.

And what your friend did is start to try

and turn it round with some facts to

calm your chimp down and say, cuz it

always looks to the computer, "Let's

look at reality." And the reality is if

I said to you,

"Um this girl is going to come back into

your life and you'll bring all that

pleasure you used to have, but she's

going to have affairs every few weeks.

Is that what you want?" No. And so you

did break it off.

You you know, so you you try and look at

it in a different way and say, "Let's

look at the reality and the facts of the

situation." But you cannot stop the

grieving. You can't stop the yearning or

the bargaining. Cuz guys in the

opposition often go back and plead. And

then she'll say, "I made a mistake." And

and then you have to make a decision.

Mhm. You know? And then they'll bargain

again. And then if you go through that,

you're going to disorganized stage.

But this can all be circumvented. If you

suddenly met somebody new, your chimp

might recover very quickly. Is that what

tends to happen?

Well, that's we know this is the

rebound. Right.

So this is never a good thing.

Okay. I'm I'm sure some of you listening

are going to say, "I married the person

I met on a rebound." So of course, it's

all probabilities, but generally

speaking, you need time to get over

this. Gather yourself so you're in a

good place when you do meet somebody

else to have a good relationship. That's

interesting.

quite complex, the whole thing. So yes,

rationally, we can pull you along, but

we've got to give you a lot of TLC and

naturally go through grieving. Don't be

harsh on yourself. And what your

experiences are totally natural.

Unhelpful, but natural. So many people

are going through a grieving process.

And it could be a significant life

event. It could be the loss of a

partner, the death or Is there anything

in psychiatry from your experience that

can Okay, that process is unavoidable.

But is there anything that I can do to

help that process be easier?

Yes, there is. I mean, one is

understanding it. As you say, if you

start to go through this and say to

people like, "This is how your mind has

to do this." Like you tell me with the

gym, you laugh. I can't do it in a

night. Well, how long? You say like it's

a bit of a piece of string. But roughly

speaking, if you keep going regularly

two, three times a week, maybe 3 months,

6 months, you're going to see a

difference, for sure. And it's the same

with me explaining the mind. I would

explain to people that we go through a

grieving process. You are likely to

experience the following emotions or

stages in the grief process, but you are

unique, and everybody grieves

individually. So, it's very important,

as I said earlier, I don't have a

process,

you know, like a recipe and say this is

what we're going to do. I work with you

as you grieve. But, I want you to get

insights. That's the key. So, the work I

do is giving understanding and insight,

and

so you learn the skill of managing your

emotions and the skill of understanding,

the skill of mind management. That's

what I'm about, teaching a skill base so

you can be independent of me, but use me

as a fallback.

On that on the point of rejection, which

we talked about a second ago, is it the

stories that I then tell myself about

myself, which impact my self-image, that

really hold that hurt me the most?

Because it feels like when you go

through emotional sorry, romantic

rejection or heartbreak, it feels like

um even if you it's not at the front

sort of like front of your mind, the

fact that someone didn't want you or

they were they wanted someone else

makes yourself tell yourself that you

are not good enough, not pretty enough,

not smart enough, you you weren't

enough. And it feels like so much of the

hurt and the pain lives inside that

story you're telling yourself about

yourself. And again, if you stop and we

look at what you've said there,

are these factual statements or are they

impressions and feelings? Impressions

and feelings. So, we know that the chimp

brain is in full flow now. Yeah. So,

what we're saying is don't quench that.

It's not wrong. It's expressing and it's

like, as I said earlier, you've got this

best friend. So, if this happens to me,

I now say to him, "What is it you're

telling me?" And he'll go through all

this, you know, it's the end of the

world and you know, you clearly no one's

ever going to love you and and then we

sort of counter it by saying, "Well,

let's look at that." So, we start to

rationalize and that can help the

grieving process. Cuz we start saying,

"Well, let's not just sit there with

these false thoughts. Let's challenge

them and let's replace them with truth."

Not brainwash. It's no good saying, for

example, say I'm your best mate and

you've just fallen apart and you say,

"It's cuz I'm ugly." It's no good me

saying, "No, you're really handsome."

That's not

That's an impression again from me. What

what I'd be saying is let's look at

facts. If we look at people in

relationships, do people find a partner

eventually? And the answer is most

people, yes. So, the chances are very

high. And if you can get through this,

will you eventually get back on your

feet? Is there a future? Yeah. Yeah,

there always is a future. There always

is a future. Even for people in a much

more serious situation where they become

suicidal.

And obviously, as part of my work, you

can tell them with honesty, there is

always a future and things do change and

feelings do move. So, when you start

giving these facts and rationalizing the

facts of the situation, that is going to

be powerful for starting to settle your

emotions. Mhm. But, giving falsehoods,

Mhm.

you know, I know you can do it or you're

That's not going to settle your chimp.

They're streetwise. Yeah, yeah. So,

he'll just keep agitating. Whereas, if

we talk facts, then it'll settle. But,

again, there's a key point here.

We have to find the facts that resonate

with you as facts.

Because if I said, like I just did, will

you find another partner? What's what's

the general rule? If you said to me,

"Yeah, but I don't believe that

everybody does." There's no point me

forcing this truth onto you. I'd have to

look for others that might resonate with

you. Yeah. Such as, if I go out and I

actually start socializing when I'm

ready, then the chances are I'll

increase my probability, so that gives

me a better hope. You might work with

that. Yeah.

So, you've got to find what resonates

with the person. And again, that's why I

don't have this recipe. I'm saying

discover them, but think around, but you

can offer common things. Yeah.

Super interesting. And it

again, it perfectly explains why in that

moment, for some bizarre reason, my

friend telling me, being very sort of

rational with me, things that I

genuinely did accept to be true, just

completely diffused my brain.

Because he's acting effectively as your

human. Yeah. That's what he's doing.

He's coming in rationally and stepping

back and saying, "Let's look at the

facts here." And he's hit some nails on

the head where you think, "Oh, that's

settled me down a bit." Yeah. So, but

what tends to happen is you tend to

isolate yourself. Most people do this

after this has happened and they go

within themselves and they engage these

emotions, which generates more and more

falsehoods and distorted ways of

perceiving themselves and the world,

instead of being able to, which is not

easy, talk to themselves rationally.

Mhm. And preempting things like, you

know, let's work with reality. It's not

easy to do that. So, when you can't do

it, it's not a failure, you turn to your

best friends and they'll do it for you.

That's so interesting cuz I just I just

realized um something that I've started

doing in the last year and people think

I'm a proper I'm a little bit strange

for doing this, but in those moments,

specifically as it relates to like

romantic situations where I'm struggling

to get a to to respond act or behave in

a way which I want to, which is in line

with who I want to be, I've got this

habit now, two things.

just correct you. I've got it. Sorry,

yeah, please.

It's who you are. Who I am. Okay.

Not who you want to be. That is so

important because it, you know, if you

get that, it's a lightbulb moment to

say, you know, you are this really great

individual. And it's not just blowing

smoke up people. People, by and large,

90% of people are great people. Their

chimps, because they're not managed, can

create havoc. Or their computers can

have beliefs in which cause them to act

in ways which are not helpful. So,

they're they're the gremlins I talk

about. So, when you look at that, I'm

saying you're always this great person.

The world may never see it.

And my job is to help you to present

yourself as you are to the world. Then

they will see who the real you is. But,

that doesn't stop you seeing the real

you. Mhm.

You know, when you get home at night,

look in the mirror, don't see your chimp

looking back.

You know.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Look at look and see the human in you

looking back, the real you, and respect

that. Cuz that's who you are. So, I've

interrupted you. No, but please, thank

you for doing that because it's it's

important and I I realize that even the

slightest like misuse of words can send

you down a different path.

Exactly. Exactly.

I'm I'm very keen on making sure my

terminology is right as I describe

myself and others.

So, if you see me doing that, please do

correct.

I

I I again, I write about that in my own

book about how just like the the misuse

of like one or two words can completely

send you down the wrong wrong sort of

train of thinking. But,

what I was saying is there's two things

that I've started to do. The first is I

now write in the notes of my phone um

statements I know to be true. Yeah. And

the second thing is, this is the

slightly strange thing, is I will

have a conversation out loud when I'm

alone to try and rationalize against how

I'm feeling.

Brilliant. So, I'm going to pick these

both up because these are really key

points and this is why I'm going to

promote the book now.

I was saying that I wanted to share

this. These are common features that we

have and there's lots of them. And one

of the things you said scientifically

really intrigues me. So, you mentioned

what I call the grade A hits, the truth

that resonate with you. Put them in your

phone, look at them and they stabilize

your chimp at any point. So, you have

grade A hits. So, we we touched on one,

for example, not everybody's going to

like you. And there are nasty people in

the world. I'd like to add some

positives. There are some fantastic

people in the world and there'll always

be people who love you. You're never

alone. You just need to reach out. So,

those are nice grade A hits if they

resonate with you, but a very important

one.

When we looked at therapies, and this

has been researched for the last 50

years, we we intrigued to know why do

they work? And I'm giving you the the

model I introduced to try and show the

neuroscience base. Um but, the

intriguing bit was when you speak into

the air, effectively, it's the chimp

brain giving out its thoughts and

feelings.

And your human's listening.

So, actually rationalizes as you listen.

And it's not unusual in business

meetings, I've seen it, where I've

worked with corporate teams and said,

"Just speak what you think, but don't

judge them." They let the chimps out and

at the end I say to the person, "What do

you think about that?" And they'll laugh

and say, "I don't agree with any of it."

Because now I've listened to myself,

it's crazy. Yeah, yeah. So, it's very

important that we do speak out and this

is what the base of therapies are, that

when we talk, we start to listen to

ourselves and we start to be understand

and process. Because that's because our

human brain is actually now taking the

lead and listening. Yeah. Cuz it it felt

cuz there's been a couple of key moments

where just context is I've been in a

quite a challenging relationship where

my partner's going through a journey.

They actually live in Indonesia, long

way long long way away, and she's going

through her own journey and sometimes

she's not always communicating with me.

Sometimes she can be unpredictable.

Sometimes she can kind of go missing for

a couple of days in terms of like being

emotionally vacant. And throughout that

journey, I've tried not to like control,

manipulate, impress myself, have high

expectation, and just kind of be and let

her do what she needs to do. And

obviously,

my chimp brain Yeah. will always be

trying to jump to conclusions or trying

to seek control or to dominate or to

force the outcome or, you know, to force

expectations on on her or the situation.

And my sort of human brain is um is

wanting to be that compassionate

empathetic person who is understanding

and isn't trying to force an outcome out

of somebody. And so, when I have that

struggle, it'll be lying in a hotel room

somewhere at night, my brain is going da

da da da.

Yeah. And then I have to speak out loud

to kind of calm myself again. So, I have

to state what I know to be true. And I

if you look to the notes of my phone

now, it's not me just saying this. There

are a list of 20 things that I remind

myself of that are like fundamental

truths and they calm me. Yeah. Um

what I advocate and I like people to get

me five and then we challenge them and

make sure they are really strong.

And they apply generically through life.

Yeah. You know, and and it does settle

our emotional mind down. But, having

said that,

it it's not a panacea. It's not like

it's always going to settle. Sometimes

we have specific experiences which can

throw us. And then we have to learn how

to manage these emotions. So again, when

you say you're in the hotel room and

your mind is spinning,

stop the battle and I say express your

mind. So say to the chimp, "Exactly what

is it you're trying to tell me? What are

you worried about?" And we have to

accept, and this is important, that

sometimes our relationships are based on

trust.

And we have to accept that reality. We

cannot know everything about the person

we're with.

So,

clearly we'll ask questions and we'll

form a relationship, get to know them.

But at the end of the day, any

friendship or relationship is on trust,

and we must accept we will never know.

Sometimes we'll never know. And if our

chimp switch are panicky a bit and want

guarantees and what have then we we're

going down the wrong path and we have to

tell our chimp, "You can't do this."

The biggest thing to follow on to that

is, as you've experienced, and

almost universal, you get your heart

broken. It's extremely painful. It can

damage you. And it often you lose

confidence in all areas of your life. So

it's time to just build back up and give

yourself time.

But if you experience that and you go

with the flow, not engage with it, you

will come out the other side much

better, much stronger. And then you come

in with the factual evidence again that

people do recover from broken

relationships.

People don't know what the next

relationship will be. Not everybody is

the same. So you start, like you're

saying, giving all these greater hits to

it.

I'm I'm someone that tries things and um

that was one of the things that I tried.

Yeah. Um, cuz it felt like the right

thing to do when my brain was just

losing a bit of control. And it

genuinely worked. So I carried on doing

it. Um, but it's good to understand the

kind of basis in psychiatry. Um,

Can I just follow that through? Cuz I

know people listening. And when you um

you said to me, you know, this I my mind

spinning in a hotel room. There's

another really big truth I say to

people.

Your chimp cannot cannot deal with

uncertainty. It's based on the So it's

never going to be happy. And your job is

to say, "Look, we have to live with

uncertainty."

You have to tell it that that you cannot

guarantee it. It's bit like going with

the elite athlete. You cannot guarantee

a gold medal. So don't try because

you're just going to stress yourself.

You know, accept that it's a throw of

the dice in sport. Life is a throw of

the dice. All we can do is try and alter

the probability with the dice.

But there's a big factor here. The chimp

can't deal with some outcomes you can.

As adult humans, we can deal with

anything.

And that's a fact we can put in our

computer, which will again, for a lot of

people settle down. There's nothing you

can't deal with. You will deal with it.

The chimp believes you can't deal with

it.

And it doesn't look beyond. Whereas I'm

saying, "Look beyond and say, whatever

happens in life, you'll look back and

think, I did deal with life." And maybe

we can deal with it quicker if we work

with a mind and learn how to expedite

things like this and and not sit with

them as problems. Learn how to move it

forward and be much more positive.

Uncertainty.

Stress.

One of the topics um you write about in

your book, A Path Through the Jungle,

but also I've I've been quite intrigued

by over the years is the idea of stress.

I think it's been painted as a really

negative thing, something to be for us

to avoid at all costs. But from what

I've understood, that's not necessarily

the truth. Stress can be a good and a

bad thing.

Yeah.

I mean, trying to just go with the

neuroscience again. If we look at where

stress comes from,

um

it's a good thing provided we act on it.

Uh, if you have like gone a big dipper

ride, your brain releases a lot of

noradrenaline.

And we know this is a good thing. You

get a thrill from it. But if you keep on

being in a stressful situation,

noradrenaline stays high and that now

becomes damaging to us.

And it's joined by the big one, which is

cortisol. And they're all of the

negative hormones and transmitters. And

so these, when they're held at high

levels, become damaging. In short

bursts, they're actually healthy because

they can wake us up to saying, "Right,

you need to act."

So we do have resilience hormones coming

in.

Uh, and they will then give us an

opportunity, as long as you recognize

it, to say stress is welcome provided I

act to remove it. There's something I

need to do, whatever's causing me the

stress. What tends to happen is people

either don't recognize they're getting

stressed and it becomes chronic. And

they've got these habitual behaviors

which are damaging to them and they

don't even recognize them.

Um, and then they get symptoms of stress

which they also not recognize. Because

people think stress is where we ringing

our hands and panicking, and that's not

really true. Stress comes in all

different forms and often isn't

recognized.

So for example,

um we know things like all your drives

may go out. So your eating drive, sex

drive, sleep drives, these all start to

falter, can change in any direction. But

also things like irritability, suddenly

finding you've got a short fuse,

constantly being tired. These is This is

usually an evidence of stress somewhere

in your life.

Um, but even more subtle ones, when you

get people with gr- really bad anxiety,

so you have a generalized anxiety state,

gross anxiety,

um they can be appear selfish. Because

suddenly they become so vulnerable in

their own eyes and stressed, they don't

actually pay attention to people around

them. And when we treat them and they

get better,

they suddenly start engaging with people

again and show demonstrate respect and

com- and understanding. And but while

they're not well,

they become almost selfish or appear

that way. So again, you can get people

who are stressed and appear to be very

self-interested.

And it's really vulnerability. They're

under stress and we misunderstand or

misinterpret it and start thinking

someone's a selfish person. I mean, they

may be selfish, but I'm saying it is one

of the hidden stress factors that can

start appearing.

In terms of the causes of stress, um

I think one of the widely held beliefs

is, especially now as we think about

mental illness, is that it's a lot of

it's about sort of pent-up, unaddressed

issues.

Or us not releasing or expressing what

we're thinking or feeling. Is that

accurate? It is, but then the etiology

of the cause of stress is is multiple.

So again, it could be for example that

you've got an ongoing problem, somebody

bullying you. You know, that's

stressful. Or you're lacking a partner

and it really isn't working out. And

that can stress you because you feel

like it's never going to happen. You

know, there's false starts and you start

to become stressed by it. Or as you

said, you could have experiences from

way back

which have never really been worked

through or addressed. And they therefore

keep surfacing. They bubble under these

emotions and that will definitely create

stress.

It tends to be they they don't present

with stress as such. They present with

odd emotions. So they translate into

things like irritability.

And and when you say, "Well, let's look

at why you're being irritable," it's

unaddressed issues that that you need to

get up to the surface in the time you

want to do it

and then clear the computer system as

I'm calling it. So you've processed

these issues. And sometimes addiction?

An addiction to? Well, so um I've my

business partner, and he's talked about

this very much openly at length. He's

actually come on this podcast and talked

about this. He obviously um he became a

alcoholic. Yeah. Um, when we were

growing the business, um I I believe in

his words because it was incredibly it

was incredibly difficult. We were, you

know, 20 years old. We had, you know,

hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of

employees all around the world. And we'd

never done this before. And um

we were living together. And I think the

pressure of the business um and the

stress, as he would describe it, um

meant that he he was turning to alcohol

to cope.

Okay. So two separate things again is

like, I mean, I don't know cuz I'm just

giving like a little potted history. So

clearly um

alcohol is a coping strategy, a very

poor one,

that people use to get social confidence

for example or remove anxiety or even

depression. And generally it won't work

out. It will end up being a problem

within itself. But alcohol disorders are

then in in approximately one in eight

people will change the brain in the way

it functions and they then get these

cravings and addiction. Uh, whereas a

lot of people it's more of a behavioral

addiction. So it's a case of getting new

behavior, work out what's causing the

problem, and we sort it and they can

stop and drink alcohol socially. But we

have to accept that genetically uh, some

people, I'm going to do my medical role

here. I I worked with alcohol services

for some years. Um, and patients who are

addicted mean they actually have a

different brain system. So we know that

their brain will cause craving

and they will respond to certain

medications that behaviorally drinking

people won't. So again, it's learning

which group you're in. And they have to

they must abstain. Because we know that

if they drink small amounts of alcohol,

it sets the system off again. So we get

this repeat behavior and have to say,

you know, unluckily, it's bit like no

different to someone who can't drink

milk. If they've got lactose

intolerance, the answer is you can't

drink milk.

Um, and if they've got an addictive

genetic loading towards alcohol, then

they mustn't drink. They we're saying it

this is just a one-way

street to disaster. Is that Is that a

thing?

Oh, yeah, yeah. People are genetically

predisposed. We know it runs in

families. And we know that people's

brains react differently to alcohol

intake. And there there is a subgroup

where we're changing the way that they

operate in the brain. So therefore we

know that, as I say, they will get that

craving. I mean, there was once a group

of guys in London early days when my

career

in the alcohol services. And these were

all guys who had problems with alcohol.

And I asked them, I said, "Look, I've

got all the medical knowledge, and but

you tell me. The reality is what makes

you think you're an alcoholic?" And they

said something interesting, which rang

true with the neuroscience later in my

career. They said, "We know we're

alcoholics cuz if we go to a pub and we

ask for a drink, it won't stop." Yeah.

Whereas people who are drinking for

other reasons can stop. Whereas we

immediately change one drink and we

change. Yeah. And that was such a

fantastic thing to get from these guys.

I'm indebted to them because it was

almost a question I'd ask, and it seems

to run run true. Yeah. Nearly every case

I know now we've got a problem.

Whereas if people say, "No, I could

stop, and I don't, you know, bite my

nails when I leave." I just think,

"Okay, I'll have one today." But someone

who's got a true addiction, a physical

addiction, they said their mind changes.

After one drink, it's just completely

different, and you can't stop. The

craving appears. I I am I've been saying

um

when I talk about my business partner,

Dom, and he doesn't mind me talking

about cuz he's been on as I said, he's

been on this podcast talking about He's

very, very open, and he's a big he's a

big um public speaker about the topic of

alcohol and sobriety. But um the way I

would describe my experience with him

and my other friends is just as a graph.

So, Dom's drinking, if he had and I'd

say this, I've said this multiple times,

if he had one,

the graph would looks the line of the

graph would look like this. Mine would

be I could have three and then stop.

Yeah. Yeah. So, his was always like

this. So, if he if he went to the bar, I

knew the end of the night would be

him falling over because there wouldn't

be the thing in his brain that he can't

stop. He can't stop.

And whereas I could have two, and I'm

like, "Woof, that's me done." Or I don't

need any more, or, you know, I'm

whatever is and that's

Well, interesting when I started looking

at this and we detailed a bit, the

neuroscience behind it brought me back

to the chimp model because we know that

we make decisions from either the chimp

system or the human. And when we drink

alcohol, it actually interferes with the

circuits of rationality.

So, the human effectively gets disabled.

So, now our chimp is fully in charge, so

it does impulsive things which the next

day it may very well regret. And that's

because at the time the decision-making

they've got is impaired.

So, and

you know, most people say, "Oh, I'm

better for a drink." It's interesting

that most partners say no, they're not.

Mhm. They're not. So, we the brain

actually fools itself.

So, so there is a biological basis

behind the

decision-making we get when these people

have got addictive uh genetic

personalities so that they actually

can't stop.

I'm conscious of um people thinking

that, you know, cuz we'll all know a

friend like that. Yeah. But it doesn't

necessarily mean they're an alcoholic,

does it?

No. I mean, I don't I don't personally

like the term. I think we just look at

the you know, the fact that they're

uh addicted to a substance of some kind

or they've got a craving. I'd much

rather

give that term an allergy, otherwise it

feels a bit judgmental. So, I'm just

saying, you know, how do you use

alcohol? Do you misuse it or do you use

it appropriately? What Where do you

fall? And if you've got an addiction to

it, then let's look at that addiction

and see whether it's a physical

addiction or psychological addiction. So

again, it's like going through a grid to

make sure we get the right thing for the

right person.

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One of the things you talk about

extensively is about forming habits.

Yeah. And um a lot of people in my life

recently, including myself, have tried

to be tried to form habits, especially

during the lockdown when so much of our

lives was um our habits were broken, our

cycles were broken because we were all

trapped in our houses. So, whether we,

you know, had formed a habit of going to

the Starbucks then the gym in the

morning or whatever, we had our habits

broken. So, I spent a lot of time

thinking about how I could form

healthier habits in my life. One of them

was working out every day. Um but I and

one of the sort of, I guess, popular

narratives is that if you do something

for 21 days, it becomes a habit. What is

the truth about habits and how we form

them?

I mean, there's a lot of research on

this, and they're a little bit

contradictory. So, read and believe what

you you like. But I mean, the general

feel is that if you look at why we form

a habit,

it's either consciously done with a

belief system or it's unconsciously

done.