women tend to be more Unhappily Married

than men and 80% of the time women bring

up problems in a relationship but 69% of

all problems are not solvable so if you

rely on problems getting solved as an

indicator of the success of the

relationship it's not going to look good

Dr Jong and Dr Julie gotman

world-renowned researchers and clinical

psychologists who've been married 36

years and have spent the last 50 years

studying love you made something called

love lab what is that we followed 3,000

couples it taught us the difference

between what masters of relationship do

and what disasters do what advice would

you give to me then cuddle 96% of non-

cuddlers had an awful sex life anything

else yes the hookup culture is thriving

is that a problem yes why okay so let me

point out something that everybody needs

to hear so and also kissing is very

powerful men who kiss their wives

goodbye women they leave for work live

four years longer than men who don't in

your research you found that during

conflict couples who show four key

behaviors mean that an argument is

doomed yes and they are criticism

defensiveness the third one was the

worst and that was that was the best

predictor of relationship breakup and

the fourth

was John Julie can you role play the

behavior that a couple who are destined

to fail would exhibit oh yes

so it's absolutely crazy to me that so

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[Music]

episode John Julie you've both been

studying the subject of love for more

than 50

years you've written books you've done a

lot of primary research you run

something called The Love lab I'm going

to start with you Julie

M what is the mission

that you're on and why love that is the

most wonderful question in the universe

here's why we have a world as we all

know that is full of conflict is full of

uh antipathy is full of violence

domestic

violence all kinds of clashes between

people and we wanted to focus on love

because love is the great healer right

it heals people's hearts it heals

people's Souls it brings people together

it unifies people but nobody has taken

relationships

101 nobody knows how to have productive

relationships that are calm and gentle

and

compassionate and at the beginning of

the research we had no idea of what

successful couples did to really

solidify their relationship and sustain

it so John and his wonderful colleague

Robert levenson did some of that

earliest research that taught us the

difference between what masters of

relationship do and what disasters do so

we could help as many people as possible

and John the same question for you with

all the work that you've done in your

life life what is it that you're seeking

to deliver to the person that consumes

that work what is it you're seeking to

do for them well Bob and I started

studying relationships because we were

so incompetent at it and we we're just

too clueless guys going from one

relationship disaster to another and we

were really curious about whether there

were people out there who could do it

well and we found they were and you know

and then we thought how are they

different from people you know who like

us really went from one disaster to

another and we had no idea we really had

very few hypotheses when we started so

it was just curiosity uh and we weren't

interested in helping anybody at all we

were just curious about finding out what

the differences were and then 26 years

ago Julia and I decided to work together

and she's a clinical psychologist she

wants to help people and and I thought

it was impossible to change

relationships because if you can predict

with such high accuracy that a

relationship is doomed or it works how

can you change it you know it seemed

seemed impossible but Julie's really an

optimist and really cares about people

and so we got together and we thought

well we need a theory if we're going to

help people cuz every relationship is

different and so first we built a theory

and then we tested it so that's how I

got into it really I didn't have a

mission so how did you both come to

study and work together on the subject

of love in

particular well John had already been

studying it right right so uh we met

what almost 38 years ago and what

happened is that I'd be coming home

talking about my clinical cases over

dinner John would come home from the lab

and be sharing the statistics and the

findings he had that were really

thrilling and after a while um he was he

was garnering such incredible

information such great knowledge that

one day we were out in the middle of the

sea

canoeing and I said honey let's take

this stuff out of the Ivory Tower let's

let's form Theory and interventions

based on what these successful couples

are doing doing to really sustain their

love it's such a beautiful thing we see

and he said sure why not and we did and

joh what was that research well you know

Bob and I found that there really were

masters of relationships and we spent a

Dozen Years studying gay and lesbian

couples too same thing there there were

people who knew how to have

relationships and they were very

different from the couples who are

struggling and most of the clinical

books have been written by therapist IST

who never saw the good relationships and

so we had information that was very new

and it was pretty fascinating um but the

question was could we actually turn a

disaster into a master could we prevent

relationship disaster we didn't know so

it was kind of a question you know was

it just correlation or were the findings

causal and so it was really uh curiosity

that continued and how many research

papers have you published now uh couple

hundred I think and how many books

between you have you written Julie I

think we're on 52 maybe how many couples

have you studied John well a latest

study involved over 40,000 couples

looking at their questionnaires and

couples about to start therapy but

following couples in the lab that the

kind of lab that Bob levenson and I

created

uh about 3,000 couples and Bob studied a

group of couples for 20 years the same

group of couples in their 40s or in

their 60s when they started the study

and he actually was able to get funding

for 20 years so the group of couples in

the 40s were now in their 60s and you

can compare them to the couples 20 years

ago who were in their 60s so wound up

being you know a 40-year longitudinal

study has anyone ever studied couples

for that l length of time no not really

it really was a first when people think

about the subject of

love I don't think they necessarily hold

it in such high importance in their life

they think about other thing especially

as it correlates to our health outcomes

so like you know my physical health

outcomes are they right in

deprioritizing love as a path to having

good physical health or does our love

and relationships correlate to our our

physical health our chance of disease

these kinds of things there's a new

field that started kind of when I

started doing my research and it's

called social epidemiology a guy named

Leonard Sim started at Berkeley with his

student Lisa burkeman and they did this

uh study called the Alam County study

where they studied 9,000 people and S

was interested in diet he was interested

in cholesterol and he found that Chinese

American immigrants just lived a lot

longer and were a lot healthier than

Americans were even Chinese American

immigrants so he was kind of curious

about you know what really was the

difference was it the diet was it and he

found it was really Community it was

really that these people moved with

their friends and he found in general

that the quality of people's closest

relationships really predicted longevity

very strong prediction too so it's

become a whole field called social

epidemology and people have studied the

immune system and you know found that

all over the planet people who are

socially isolated who have bad

relationships don't live as long they

get sick and die a lot younger and that

people have great relationships they

live a lot longer and the quality of

their life is better they're a lot

happier and so it seems to make a real

big difference modern social psychology

has been finding the same thing with

people's relationship to

strangers that that affects health so if

you reach out to strangers and in in the

morning if you're commuting having a

conversation with the commuter next to

you then you're open to learning about

their lives that also affects your

Health and

Longevity so we're really a very social

species it's interesting because we

spend a lot of time you know going to

the gym or thinking about our diet or

something but what you were saying and I

think what a lot of your work has

uncovered is that we should be investing

in the same way in relationships in a

really intentional way and especially

when we consider the nature of the world

now where we're getting lonier and more

detached than ever before no one taught

me at any point in my life to think of

my relationships like the gym yeah right

what's your take on that Julie well uh

being a gym buff

myself I love going to the gym but um

one thing that I'm really remembering is

that uh people people whose parents

divorced typically they live four years

less on average than people who grew up

with an intact family people who grew up

with divorce and then ended up divorcing

them themselves their own relationships

divorcing lived eight years less so you

can see how important love is and we're

beginning to understand all of this by

looking at things like

oxytocin

serotonin versus things like adrenaline

and cortisol which are stress

hormones that will flood the body and

stress the body when we're in a bad

relationship you made something called

The Love

lab very curious name place I think I'd

like to go um what is the love lab

well it got named that by the BBC when

they did a a show on our newlywed study

but it was it was basically an apartment

like setting and couple spent 24 hours

there and the cameras were rolling the

whole time they were awake and and like

Bob and I did we synchronized

physiological data to the video time

code so we could you know see what was

what they were doing what they were

saying to one another and at the same

time be able to look at their heart

rates and their blood velocity and

things like that and and we measured

other physiological things and immune

variables as well so that was basically

the lab and we followed couples a couple

of months after the wedding many of them

uh as they got pregnant and had babies I

learned how to study parent infant

interaction from some of my friends who

were experts in that field and we

followed the children as they got older

so that was kind of the lab it was just

to see whether uh there was any

predictability in relationships if we

weren't telling people what to talk

about just watching them as they might

normally go about a typical day so let

me get this straight you you have these

people come to this sort of normal

setting kind of like an apartment but

it's really a laboratory where they're

being studied for their physiological

biomarkers of I don't know heart rate

things like that you just watch them

well they're being videotaped right and

that video tape then afterwards is

analyzed hundredth of a second by

hundredth of a second corresponding also

to their physiological

measures and we're analyzing all of that

tape in terms of the content of what

they're saying what their body movements

are what their facial expressions are

what emotions are they expressing how

are they expressing those emotions if

any are they responding to each other's

bids for connection we looked at so much

data and it was a gold mine it taught us

so much not only about the best way for

couples to manage conflict but even more

important how do couples create a deeper

friendship with one another and by then

we'd already known that friendship in a

relation ship also helps create more

passion and good sex in a longlasting

relationship so there was so much for us

to learn it was exciting going into that

study at the love lab what were the sort

of

big things that you discovered

afterwards that are misconceptions about

relationships so you know I can think of

a couple off the top of my head but

you'll know them better what are the big

misconceptions that you discovered from

that start with you Julie a lot of

people think that sustaining a good

relationship takes huge effort you know

takes really figuring out things like

active listening where if you say to me

Stephen you know I am really angry

because you keep leaving the lid off the

toothpaste what's the matter with you

and how do I respond to that well we

would learn that criticism for example

you always you never those are

criticisms didn't work to manage

conflict on the other hand what we also

saw is that when somebody made a little

tiny bid for connection for example

there was a big window in this apartment

looking out the window and saying oh my

God there's a beautiful bird in the tree

what does your partner do this proved to

be incred ibly important does your

partner either turn against you by

saying stop interrupting me I'm trying

to read or ignore you completely which

is silence not paying attention or look

out the window too and say huh

cool that's all it took to create a

better friendship for a couple and we

found that the couples who were

successful in the Long Haul turn towards

each other's little bits for connection

85% of the time the couples who ended up

splitting up unhappy divorced

33% of the time so listen to that

difference just between saying uhhuh and

saying nothing let's start there then I

am I think I am guilty of being very

very bad at responding positively to

bids for connection from my partner this

is actually one of the central issues

that we've struggled with over the last

couple of months is my partner will come

home like usually I'm coming home she's

already home just before me and I'm

still I've still got my work brain on

I'm thinking about work I rush into the

living room sometimes I'll like say

hello to her then I'll go on my laptop

and I start working and she comes over

and says something to me and because I'm

focused on my work I either acknowledge

her but without turning my head or

sometimes I'll just give one sec babee

I'm busy or say something words to that

effect right it's clearly causing a

problem I'm I'm guilty of the same

thing I was working on a on a book uh

and Julie said you know I go into the

living room and sit down and you don't

even look up and I sit there for a while

and then I get up and leave and you

haven't even noticed that I was there so

I was guilty of it too turning away and

we worked on it we did work on it the

other thing too though with John and

I've I've learned to accept this right

over time is that John grew up in a

little teeny weeny apartment as a

refugee in New York City and it was loud

and noisy and there were a lot of people

all around so he had to develop this

incredible sense of concentration and so

when I first met you it was so funny

John um I would be across the kitchen

counter from John he would be reading a

book he wouldn't even be on his computer

be reading a book and I would say

John uh

John hey John and I would wave my hand

and finally he would say oh yeah I

really didn't hear it he didn't hear it

I mean literally and I had

to understand that with that kind of

concentration he really didn't hear me

how did it make you feel how did it make

me feel at first it made me feel

invisible

unimportant um

unloved rejected alone you know it made

me feel all kinds of stuff until I

understood wait a minute there's

something in his

brain that's very different than my

brain because I'm always you know I have

no skin I'm like super aware of

everything around me okay so John give

me some advice then from your studies in

the love lab if my partner makes a bid

for connection yeah what are the ways

that people typically respond and how

should I respond when you looked at the

couples that were most successful over

the long term um how do they respond how

should I respond give me some advice

yeah I think I I think the really great

relationships have this motto that when

their partner is upset you just stop

everything you're doing and listen and I

I keep a notebook in my back pocket just

for that purpose so if Julie says we

need to talk I whip out my notebook my

pen and I say okay I'm taking notes so

I'm ready to listen to her and you know

it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious

to what's going on around me but you

know I I become much more aware so when

she comes into the living room now I I

stop what I'm doing close the computer

and say how you doing what's on your

mind my my issue is with that is I work

in the living room sometimes so what's

the balance between me being able to

work in the living room or work in like

a public home space without being

interrupted while also not rejecting my

partner accidentally or you know lowkey

intentionally I I think the solution is

to create a ritual around connection you

know so if she if she really needs to

talk to you she can you know give you a

signal that it's important for her to

connect with you and then it's not

always happening you know it's just

happening when it's important and

Julie's like that too so she'll you know

she'll come in and she won't sit there

and and just wait for me to respond

she'll actually go we need to talk and

then I know I get my notebook out but

let me point out something though honey

you're you're talking only about you

know if I'm upset about something so I

have to work in the living room also of

our house um or John may be working in

the living room and if he's working on

something and I want his

attention I may ask him can I have your

attention for a moment so I need to say

what I need to him and if it's something

that's trivial and he says just a minute

you know I'm working on an email or

whatever okay that's fine you know our

timing is not going to be identical he's

not going to be available necessarily

all the time I want to talk to him I

won't be either right and so we try to

inquire of one another is this a good

time for us to talk and there's

sometimes when it's not a good time for

you to talk John of course right of

course that's where I think I've

struggled because sometimes I feel like

this is not a good time to talk and I

express that and I think maybe the way

that I'm expressing it isn't soft enough

maybe I'm you know let me give you one

of my favorite things to say okay which

is honey I would really love to listen

to you right now but I really am feeling

pressured to finish this so can you just

wait however amount of time you know 30

minutes or an hour and then I'll be able

to give you my full

attention see that I want to listen to

you that's the key phrase that tells

your partner I value you I love you but

there's pressure on me right now too so

please be understanding and I'll be

there for you as soon as I can be you

know in the in the love lab when you saw

these couples who were missing bids for

connection so for the example you gave

Julie of someone looking out the window

and saying babe come and look at this

and then the other person either ignores

it or kind of dismisses it was that

individual who dismissed it or ignored

it John were they doing that

intentionally did they was it a buildup

of something that's caused them to sort

of passively reject the person or was it

they were just oblivious yeah it's

really hard to know I mean the one thing

I can tell you was the person who got

turned away from kind of crumples a

little bit so regardless of the reason

for the turning away if it's really

habitual

that person making a bid really gets

hurt by the turning away

and and that I think leads people to

stop

bidding you know to think you know

what's the point and then what happens

well then they they just create this

emotional distance yeah uh and put up

walls and then what happens and then

what happens is that they become lonely

and then what happens quite often an

fair oh they cheat or okay yeah

eventually and it all starts with

missing a bid for connection potentially

and that becoming a habit many of them

yeah yeah you know I I like to use the

metaphor of a sea anemon you know what

that's like right it's a little sea

creature in a tile pool that that has

all these little fingers all these

little fingers so it may be relaxing

those fingers and opening up and

revealing its

underbelly but when somebody refuses a

bid for connection it's as if that

little C anomy has been poked right in

the stomach and so all the fingers close

up and shut down and lock down and it

takes a much longer time for that anemon

to unfold its fingers again and be open

yeah it's not safe mhm did you ever find

and I think this is something that I've

talked about before on my relationship

that sometimes when I miss a bid for

connection it increases the amounts of

bids for connection because I think I'm

guessing that I'm a bit of an avoidant

type based on my history in my childhood

she's a little bit more of an anxious

type so it seems to be the case that if

I say not now babe I'm working then the

amount of bids increase and they they

come they they start to become in my

opinion and I could be well wrong here

they they're not they're not actually

there's not actually something out the

window now it becomes more about trying

to confirm whether I it's a test right

it's a test yeah that's it feels like a

test yeah right right but also what it

is when especially when there isn't

something outside the window

is very pure and simple I need to

connect with you I need to feel that

connection sure I can imagine it I can

remember it from you know 3 hours ago

but right now I'm feeling that kind of

little stirring inside of me that need

and I want to connect with you I just

need that

connection so she's attempting to create

that what is this

attune framework John

attune awareness turning toward

tolerance understanding n defensive

empathetic what is this framework yeah

Attunement is really uh you know it's

like two Musical instruments that really

are tuned to one another and when one

plays the other resonates so uh creating

rituals of connection you know like we

have a ritual every morning you know

where you know I'll say I'll ask Julie

you know what's on your play today what

you know what's your day look like and

she'll say what what does your day look

like so we kind of check in with with

each other and then at dinner we have

another ritual connection and you know

how was your day you know what what

happened how did that how did that

session go and we kind of keep in touch

with each other with these structured

ways of attuning and in that way you

don't lose touch you don't make

assumptions you know we ask each other

questions like what can I do this week

to make you feel loved and you know when

you have that kind of ritual then you

know you know you're connecting and um

and you're like those two instruments

that are tuned to each other may I add a

little to that um empathy is super super

important and I I honestly believe that

empathy is probably the most powerful

tool we have to really create connection

with one another so if our partner is

saying to us I'm really upset right now

I'm really angry that I'm doing all the

housework can you attune to that can you

say first of all tell me more what what

is making that a burden for you so

you're pulling information out and then

your partner might be saying well you

know it's like the second shift for me

I'm at work all day and then I have to

come home and clean the house Etc so I

want to share that with you okay can you

empathize with her can you say ah no

wonder you're probably pretty tired when

you come home right so you really do

need my support is that what you're

trying to tell me mhm that's the

Attunement you see I was going to say

it's quite difficult isn't it because it

often sounds like blame here's the

difference there's a big difference and

this is what we saw in the lab also it

is blame when there's a lot of you in

what your partner is saying for example

you never clean up the kitchen you are

too lazy to do any housework at the end

of the day what about me you know Etc so

with that kind of blaming and criticism

nobody nobody is going to feel like oh

you're absolutely right you're really

mad at me because I've been a schmuck

and I haven't been helping you with the

housework and that's what you're telling

me no what people have to do when

they're unhappy about something is

describe

themselves I'm

upset that what's the situation describe

the situation I'm upset that the kitchen

is a mess okay that the kitchen is a

mess is a situation it's not saying

you're a bad person you see and then

step three they need to say what their

positive need is which means how can

your partner Shine for you don't tell

them what they they're not doing right

or what you resent flip that on its head

and say I would love it if you would

help me tonight with the dishes my

partner did that yesterday actually she

um and I I noticed that she did it so

basically she's in Costa Rica right now

doing a retreat and she sent me a text

saying babe I love it when you tell me

how the podcast went after you finished

recording it now there's several ways

that someone could have said that she

could have said I hate it when you don't

tell me for example that's right but she

said I love it when you tell me what

she's telling me is to do it more and it

I felt it to be really motivating that

I'll do it more so I started doing it

more I started telling her sending her

voice notes after the podcast but I've

also seen it in relationships where it's

fra framed the it's trying to get the

same outcome but it's framed in the

opposite way it's negative it's I

suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot

and I've done something wrong and I'm a

child being told off by my mother or

something right exactly and what is your

first response to that defensiveness uh

uh deny it throw it back on them exactly

yep and that's one of the predictors you

know a smaller predictor but still a

predictor of relationship

unhappiness why

does typical couple's therapy fail

John in your opinion well you know it's

not failing very much anymore there are

some very good approaches now some

behavioral approaches that are working

pretty well and emotionally focused

therapy is working much better so things

have improved um but I think typically

the reason that it fails is that the

therapist doesn't really have the proper

tools for either assessing a

relationship and most therapists don't

do any assessment when a couple comes in

they don't look for you know what are

the strengths in this relationship and

what do I not need to work on and what

are the challenges that I really need to

work on and not only don't they

typically assess but once once they

start working with a couple they don't

really have the tools as I heard with

therapy it's all about listening you

know and the stat I'm I'm citing here is

that um traditional couples therapy only

had a 35 to 50% success rate right and

you typically think of therapy like you

go there and your job is just to listen

to your partner as they tell you what's

wrong yeah why doesn't that work because

they're telling you typically what's

wrong with you and the therapist isn't

stopping them isn't saying that's

criticism that's not going to work that

is going to sabotage you getting

listened to so try this instead try

telling your partner what you feel and

what you need instead of describing your

partner and what's wrong with him I

actually saw at a conference I'm not

making this up somebody was training

therapists and this this therapist who

was doing the training played a

videotape in which a husband said to his

wife you know Sheila you're such a

you only think about yourself and the

therapist said Sheila can you summarize

and reflect back what Harry just said

and empathize with

him I

thought God you know what an idiot I

mean nobody can

empathize with insult and put Downs you

know why isn't she constraining the way

Harry's talking to Sheila not just

Sheila listening so I think a lot of

times therapists really don't know how

to use a tool they don't know what

really is appropriate what a good

relationship looks like what a good

relationship looks like I'm really Keen

to understand the principles of what

successful couples do from your research

you've highlighted a few of those things

I mean you've got the seven principles

of success marriage what are some of the

most important of those principles first

of all um we call the first principle

building love Maps you need to keep

asking your partner open-ended questions

to know who they are open-ended

questions are questions like

so what characteristic would you like to

pass down from your family to our child

or what would be your ideal way of

celebrating Ramadan or Christmas or

whatever holiday so you're asking your

partner questions with answers that have

paragraphs not a one-word answer in

order to keep in touch with who your

partner is what their values are what

their priorities are what their needs

are what their feelings are because

those change over time as you're

together turning toward we talked about

that was super important expressing

fondness and admiration is very

important so you can feel love and if

you don't tell your partner you love

them or express it with touch which is

incredibly

important then your partner may not be

all that sure that you still do love

them 5 years down the road of course

managing conflict is incredibly

important and that's where we've

probably done our most significant work

but in addition to that it's honoring

each other's

dreams dreams meaning what are your

hopes and aspirations for the future

they're not going to be compatible

they're not necessarily going to be

identical it doesn't matter can you

support your partner in realizing their

own dream and fulfilling that and

finally creating shared meaning which

means every one of us is a philosopher

we have our own ideas about what our

purpose in life is well do you tell your

partner what that is for you and you

hear that from your partner that's the

sharing that's

needed and the weightbearing walls and

trust and commitment of course so trust

builds over time and trust is

essentially answering the question will

you be there for me in all kinds of

different situations will you be there

for me when I'm sick when I'm depressed

when I want to celebrate a success when

I'm frustrated will you be there for me

and nobody will be perfectly but the

more the better so that's

trust and commit of course is are you

letting your partner know that this

relationship is your journey for life

you are here for life not for you know

the next three weeks and then you'll

think about it again why is

having expressed dreams so important

because I often think that about sort of

my relationship I think our dreams are

not the same they're very different and

sometimes I wonder and I've wondered and

I think we've both wondered in my

relationship whether that is a big big

issue if it matters but why is it so

important to express your dreams to your

partner and do do they have to be

aligned okay number one they don't have

to be aligned that's one of the big

myths of all time you have to be

compatible you have to have the same

dreams the same passions the same

interest wrong wrong wrong that's not

true in fact often times were attracted

to people who were different from us

what happens when the dreams are in

Conflict though so if one partner's

dreams is to live in Australia and the

other partner's dream is to live on on

America you know there are certain

situations where one person's dream is

the other person's Nightmare and they're

they really don't have a compromise

that's possible so the one you described

I had a couple like that where she lived

in Switzerland he lived in Uganda she

had an autistic son and that autistic

son needed desperately a very good

support system to help him cope with the

differences that he lived with every day

so she wanted to stay in Switzerland he

worked for the government in Uganda he

was making a contribution there he did

not want to move to Switzerland and she

knew she wouldn't get the support for

herself son in Uganda so they had

incompatible totally incompatible dreams

but there was no compromise here so they

ended up breaking up but they knew why

they were breaking up and it was for

good reason are some problems solvable

then and some problems not solvable yeah

it turns out 69% of all problems are not

solvable and just you know we're not

attracted to people who are like us and

then once we get together we find those

differences although initially very

Tractive pretty annoying you know so

it's really great that he's so

spontaneous but then why can't he ever

stick to a

plan you know and that becomes a source

of irritation and unless people can

really be enriched by those differences

and learn to accept the differences

they're going to be in a lot of trouble

so when we looked at over time at what

people fought about it was 69% of the

time it was the same issues and what you

you call these Perpetual problems

Perpetual problems yeah and once you

pick somebody to have a relationship

with you've automatically inherited the

problems you'll have for the next 50

years these are problems you can't solve

really right but you can adapt to them

and laugh about them and compromise

around the edges okay so what's an

example of a Perpetual problem in your

relationship oh my my God okay so um

John first of all he's wearing you know

a a Jewish yam he thinks this is a Halo

right so you know he's

I he's always innocent okay so he calls

me obsessively compulsively neurotically

tidy and he is charmingly sloppy okay so

we have a huge

difference and so

um here's how we've coped with it

because environment is not it's just not

important for him and for me it's super

important it will disorganize my mind if

my environment is disorganized so when

things start to get to me there's too

much mess too many papers books I can't

make the bed because I'm trying to lean

over a 4ot tall pile of books and I may

break my neck if I try to make the bed

so it gets to that point and then I'll

say to him honey I really need you to

please clean up the books in the bedroom

he'll say okay then he won't do it then

I'll ask the next week I'll say honey

it's you know I'm I'm really wanting you

to clean this up please he said okay I

will but then he has to I don't know do

something else so it doesn't happen week

three I say to him

okay honey I've said this now twice I'm

starting to get annoyed he'll say oh

okay all right I'll think I I'll figure

out when I can do

it week

four we're counting down I say okay

we've crossed the threshold I'm now

Angry I really need you to clean up the

books now please and I become a pushy

Jewish Broad that's what happens and he

goes

oh and he says okay okay because I'm

bigger than he is and I had two older

brothers and I'm really good at

wrestling and stuff and so I clean it up

he cleans it up really fast it's

pristine it's beautiful I savor it then

it starts over again so how do we is

that the pathway to dealing with

Perpetual problems is you just have to

like accept them that it's going

to so here's the deal with Perpetual

problems we have a method for compromise

we call it the bagel method or maybe the

donut method depending on your culture

okay so in an inner circle you think

about or you write down what can you not

compromise on in terms of your position

your position on this issue what what

can you not it would be like giving up

the bones of your body or that core

dream you have that is so Central to

your identity that you got to hold on to

that then in an Outer Circle you write

down what you're more flexible about and

those are typically when something will

happen who will do it where it will

happen how much will it cost how long

will it last those nitty-gritty Det

details you share what you've written

down in both circles with your partner

and you look at the flexible areas

around each of your positions on the

issue and you try to reach a compromise

regarding those

flexible points of view while still

honoring each other's inner core dream

or core need but you must want to change

that about John right you must want to

change of course I want to change it but

you know what John wouldn't be John if

he was a tidy neat guy and after a time

it's just

adorable it's funny and we have such a

wonderful relationship that it's

hilarious and it's predictable you need

to talk about gridlocked Perpetual

problems that's a whole different story

that's a different story so gridlock is

when you cannot die dialogue about

something because you hold so fast to

your own position on the issue that you

really want to win this battle it's not

a matter of compromise you know you're

right you want to win and the other

person feels the same way then what you

try to talk without really listening to

one another and understanding at a much

deeper level which is part of our work

what really constitutes our partner's

position why they holding that position

so

strongly and with your understanding

comes more compassion if you don't have

that understanding if you're trying to

win you get gridlocked to the point

where every fight escalates to the

ceiling you end up yelling or you shut

down shove it under the rug but you can

feel it as you walk around the living

room this this is I mean this is one of

the big problems in relationships John

is that we often feel like our partner

is trying to change Us in ways that we

don't want to be changed that's right

and I often I've been in a relationship

before past relationship where my

partner would say things that were an

attempt to change me but in doing so she

was actually telling me that she didn't

think I was good enough right oh you see

what I'm saying sure well that's that's

the nature of gridlock conflict yeah and

and part of what what we've done is

invent six

questions that 87% of the time work to

get people out of gridlock where they

they're asking these questions about

what does this feel like what does this

conversation feel like to you what is it

that you think I'm trying to change

about you and that I don't think is good

enough tell me how that feels and what's

your ideal dream of how we should talk

about things you know and where does

that come from and you know where is it

that you feel unaccepted by me so if you

can have that conversation a lot of

times you develop the sense of

understanding and then you can

compromise about the gridlock this year

one of the recurring things I've had in

relationships is I'm very involved with

technology in my work so sometimes it's

felt in relationships that I've had that

the person is trying to take my work

away from me so because they're always

complaining that I'm on my phone or I'm

on my laptop or whatever thinking like

they they're trying to change me in a

way that I'm unwilling to change I'm not

I I love my work I want to I want that

to be a big part of my life right how

how do I go about solving for that so

and that person wants you to do away

with the technology some of the time

right that's how it feels yeah that's

how it feels okay so you need to have a

conversation where each of you

interviews the other person and asks

asks six questions let me go through

those just really quickly what are your

beliefs values and ethics that are part

of your position on this issue you know

wanting to stay with the technology do

you have some background or childhood

history that relates to your

position why is this so important to you

what do you feel about your position

here what is your ideal dream here what

do you really wish for if the world

could be just like you wanted it

regarding this issue what would it look

like and is there some life purpose or

goal in this for you that is really

important as you answer those questions

Stephen she's gaining an inside look

into what's deepest and most important

to you regarding this issue then then

you ask her the same questions exactly

the same ones to understand where she's

coming from right and what that creates

is much more understanding and

compassion for one another about why

each position is so important to that

particular

partner then you try to work on

compromise like I

described

interesting but those questions are

fundamental if you just just argue on

the surface you're not going to get

anywhere you're going to stay gridlocked

I love my work I want to do my work

period Well does she know why your work

is so important to you what life purpose

that is serving for you does she know

that way down at the core of who you are

in your research you discovered

something which has become pretty iconic

when we talk about relationships and

conflict which is this idea of the Four

Horsemen um you found that during

conflict couples who show four key

behaviors mean that an argument is

doomed and it's the worst way of arguing

I like really nothing can be gained

beyond that point John what are the four

horsemen and how was this discovered

yeah it you know Bob levenson and I uh

first looked at just the ratio of

positivity to negativity and a conflict

discussion and the first thing we

discovered was that among the Masters

that ra IO was 5 to1 or higher and among

the disaster couples it was 8 average 8

to1 what does that mean sorry 5 to1 so

if you take the number of seconds that

they're show displaying interest

curiosity affection humor uh shared

humor validation listening to One

Another uh you know saying things like

no tell me more oh wow oh good point you

know things like that and you divide

that by the number of seconds that

they're angry upset you know

disappointed hurt critical defensive

belligerent you know all these negative

ways these hostile ways of interacting

that ratio of positivity to negativity

was 5 to one or higher among

relationships that work well during

conflict during the conflict yeah so but

the second thing we wanted to know is

well are all negatives equally corrosive

you know and the ones that were the most

corrosive really involved that person

starting off and saying you know as far

as I can tell I'm pretty much fine but

you're defective here's what's wrong

with you and they started with this

criticism that they thought was

constructive criticism you know and they

hoped their partner would respond by

saying you know God you're so insightful

you know tell me more about how I'm

failing but instead what they got was

defensiveness Counterattack or the

innocent victim posture and that was

that was the second Horsemen of the

Apocalypse the third one was contempt

and that was the worst that was the best

predictor of relationship breakup of all

that criticism from a place of

superiority I'm better than you you know

I you know I I correct your grammar even

when you're angry or you know I think

I'm more punctual and that's really

important or I'm tidier than you are or

I'm better informed than you are that

sort of snobbery that you know looking

down on their partner may I add

something go ahead with contempt also

you've got things like name calling you

know calling people bad

names sarcasm

mockery sarcasm can have a real Cutting

Edge it can be funny but then it crosses

over into hurt and the fourth Horseman

is stonewalling which was particularly a

guy thing to do 85% of the time guys

with Stonewall they just shut down and

they don't give these cues to the

speaker that they're listening they're

not nodding their heads or moving their

facial muscles or uttering these

vocalizations like oh you know not doing

that they're just kind of shut down and

look away and you know when we found

those people's physiology is really

elevated so it wasn't about whether

couples were arguing or not because we

typically think a relationship is doomed

if the couple are like screaming at each

other again it depends on your

definition

okay so screaming at each other is one

form of

argument and there are certain couples

that are volatile where both partners

are volatile they're very passionate

they're very intense they may raise

their

voices but depending on what's coming

out of their mouths is it criticism is

it contempt is it defensiveness if it's

any of those it's not going to work but

you can also scream I'm so Furious about

this still describing yourself that's

not going to be a bad thing why is it

men you said talked about stonewalling

there where you kind of shut down and

you you kind of go within yourself and

ignore why is it that men do that more

than women well what I think is that we

men are much more easily physiologically

aroused and the differences are that we

secrete phasal oppression and women

secrete oxytocin much more than

vasopressin and so for us we get once we

get physiologically aroused it takes us

a long time to calm down and most of

what we feel when we get physiologically

aroused is anger and aggression and we

want to shut our partner down we're much

more aggressive than women are and so we

shut ourselves down you know and when

you look at the dialogue that people

have in their minds when they're

stonewalling it's usually stuff like

just shut up and don't say anything you

know I you know you always make it worse

when you say something so just be quiet

endure this and that's kind of a male

response do men have more of a

physiological response to arguments are

you like the sweating palms and the

blood pressure you know through

Evolution women have been responsible

for nurturing an infant in order to do

that you have to have a milk letdown

response right through Evolution so

here's what I mean let's say you know

we're back 3,000 years right there's no

formula in a can so women are

breastfeeding their infants in order for

that breast milk to come down and in in

order to be released to the infant

oxytocin is really important oxytocin

calms you down it relaxes you if you're

very tense and uptight milk isn't going

to come down at all so women have the

physiology in which to relax more easily

men on the other hand through Evolution

have been the protectors right so if

there's a sabertooth tiger attacking a

group of people who's going to jump up

and defend against that tiger well the

men are

typically so men's bodies are really

built to stay vigilant and hypervigilant

especially for attack well that attack

doesn't have to be physical it can also

be mental emotional verbal and men will

have the same response we're talking

about flooding here aren't we the

concept talking about flooding yeah what

flooding John so flooding is really

going into fight or flight it's it's

when we start secreting cortisol and

adrenaline are two major stress hormones

and when we feel attacked when we feel

unsafe you know we start secreting these

stress hormones and there are

implications psychological implications

of being physiologically flooded you

can't take in new information you rely

on overlearned habits it's like

aggression or flight you know you you

can't listen very well you actually your

hearing is compromised your peripheral

vision is compromised you focus only on

the cues you need to survive the moment

and so it's you you don't wind up being

a very creative Problem Solver or a good

listener when you're flooded if men

flood more than women does this go to

explain why men tend to avoid arguments

more than women cuz I think that's a

stereotype at least that men are much

more avoidant in arguments I think I

mean it's a stereotype that holds true

to me I've never been sure whether it's

because we're not good at expressing our

emotions or if there's a physiological

reaction in me that's making me go 80%

of the time women are the ones bringing

up issues in a relationship now when

guys bring up the issues sometimes the

women get flooded too so it's not that

women don't get flooded you know yeah

they're a little better at self soothing

than we are are but you know during

during an argument if a woman gets

flooded she really can't listen also and

she repeats herself as well gets more

strident you know if I'm flooded then

typical advice tells me John it says

never fall asleep if you and your

partner have been arguing about

something yeah what is the best I get

flooded sometimes what is the best way

for me to deal with that if it's late at

night you should go to

sleep go to sleep angry I mean St Paul

was the one who started that and he

wasn't married you know so it's you know

it sounds like great advice but if it's

going to keep you up and you know you're

going to get a terrible night's sleep

you know shake hands and go to bed give

each other a quick kiss and go to bed

angry what did he start St Paul what did

St Paul start never go to bed wrathful I

think is what his advice was for couples

and that's wrong

yeah okay so if I if I'm in the middle

of an argument and I feel like I'm a

little bit flooded my maybe my Palms are

a little bit sweaty I should take a time

out is what you're saying Julie yeah

let's talk about that um so if you're

feeling flooded um you really need to

take a break but there's specific steps

to do that

one uh if you're flooded you say I need

to take a break you don't say you do I

need to take a break and say when you'll

come back to continue the

conversation if you do that then your

partner is not going to feel abandoned

and rejected you go apart for maybe 30

minutes an hour however long maximum 24

hours and you don't think about the

fight don't plan your

rebuttal because that'll keep you

flooded as long as you keep thinking

about the fight so do something s

soothing like reading a book reading a

magazine working out maybe going for a

run get on your computer get on your

computer do your email don't watch

murder mysteries that's not a good thing

to do so come back at the designated

time when hopefully your body is a lot

calmer and continue the

conversation but you know a

generally consistent result is that

women tend to be more Unhappily Married

than

men

guys often think everything's fine oh my

God so

true I actually had this conversation

with a former partner where I said and I

shouldn't have said it but I just going

to be honest I said to her in our

relationship I think if you never raised

an issue I think there'd never be an

issue because I just felt like

everything was always fine and every

week she was coming to me with a problem

and had she not come to me with that

problem I think and I might be bsing

myself here I think the relationship

would have just been great right that's

how it felt and and you know women have

have a lot more depression than men do

as well you know so I I think in a lot

of ways the world is harder for women

the world's a more dangerous place for

women for example the probability that a

woman will be physically or sexually

assaulted in her lifetime is 40% it's 9%

from men in the United States I think

it's harder to be a woman than it is to

be a man I've sometimes rebutted myself

Julie when I talk when I say what I just

said about our relationship would be

fine if she never brought issues up

because when I zoom out and I go the

issues she's brought up have they made

our relationship better and had she not

brought them up would we have drifted

and I say probably M see what I'm saying

like I feel like my partner has always

played a role in keeping our

relationship close the caretaker yeah

yes is that a real thing yeah that

totally is a real thing what we saw in

the research is that 80% of the time

women bring up the problems in a

relationship 80% you know vast majority

and I think it's because again women you

know we talked about how men are raised

in society well women are raised in

society to nurture to create connection

contion to maintain the family unit

right to create relationship and make

sure the relationship is good and solid

and secure so we were raised with

feeling that responsibility for the

relationship being good and when we

detect something isn't so good we're

going to bring it up and that's what

causes a lot of the frustration is that

we we don't realize we don't have

empathy for how the other person is

playing a role in creating whole almost

that make sense because I I understand

as I said my relationship wouldn't be as

good if my partner didn't bring up

issues but when she brings up issues I'm

like why are you bringing up issues you

know what I mean and it's that having

that empathy sure but again um is she

bringing up issues in a way that doesn't

feel blaming or

critical to be honest to her she is

she's bringing them up pretty well great

it's the way that I'm kind of

interpreting it yeah yeah I think much

of the problem well easy you know that

happens easily to all of us because you

know we've got these this baggage in our

background that has created filters in

how we hear things how we perceive

things I have a hero on one of these

videotapes there was a lawyer and this

videotape he's helping his wife identify

what in his person personality really

makes her the most angry and he's

helping her do that he's saying well is

it is it the way I talk is that it and

she says yeah it's the way you talk but

what what is it about the way you talk I

mean is it what you know do I sound what

authoritarian or yes like the King has

spoken and he says yeah well you know I

can I guess I am like that sometimes

works in the courtroom and she says well

it doesn't work with me you know and he

says well that makes sense he's my hero

he just never gets defensive he's saying

tell me more tell me more wow what a guy

Julie what do we misunderstand about

conflict because you know I've come to

believe that the key to understanding if

a relationship will be successful over

the long term is how well the the pair

resolve conflict is that right wrong

well clearly uh as we said because 69%

of all problems are Perpetual they are

not going to be solved so if you rely on

seeing problems getting solved as an

indicator of the success of the

relationship it's not going to look good

right so you know what I think what we

need to understand about

conflict that we've written about in our

last book is that if we apply the dictum

of really understanding our partner and

their point of view before before we

work on trying to resolve the problem

we're going to do much

better conflict also gets a really bad

WP you know conflict you're not supposed

to have conflicts it means if you have a

relationship with a lot of conflict that

means it's a bad relationship total myth

that is not true what we've seen is that

couples who do fight but they fight

right as we wrote about with the tools

that are

describing their own feelings and needs

rather than blaming the partner then

they're going to really understand each

other so much better as the underlying

dreams within the conflict come out the

underlying family history comes out the

life purpose comes out think about those

big questions in the heart of a

conflict that if they are understood oh

my God you know so much more about your

partner than you did before conflict how

do I become great at conflict and is

that really what I should be aiming at

should I be aiming at getting becoming a

master of conflict resolution I think so

you know it's not conflict resolution as

much as it is conflict management and my

secret is that notebook in my back

pocket you know so I get it out you know

when we have to talk about something

important and I listen to what you're

saying write it down is it in your

pocket now it's in my pocket now I'm

thinking of getting one here it is I'm

thinking of getting one yeah it's really

great you know and so like if I say to

her she's upset you know or she wants to

talk about something important you know

I'm listening I'm taking notes so you

know and as I'm writing stuff down it

calms me down and I I'm writing it down

first first I'm saying why does she keep

bringing up issues you know I didn't

want to spend my evening this way but

then I go oh that's a good point that's

that's interesting you know and I start

realizing that she makes a lot of sense

is part of that moving the issue from

your amydala to your prefrontal cortex

I.E it's moving it from your emotional

Center to your logical Center yeah yeah

I really am CU that's that when you were

saying it I was like that would be you

use the word it calms me down calms me

down that would help calm me down as

well yeah sure when you're taking notes

you know it's more an intellectual

process as opposed to an emotional

process right so it takes you out of

that emotionally getting stirred up by

what your partner is saying and into

just processing the words the language

writing it down which keeps you calm I

one time I filled up an entire yellow

pad wow she said I want to talk to you

and this I haven't talked to about this

ever and but I need you to really be

quiet and listen and I just kept writing

stuff down did he listen Julie when on

that occasion he really did it was

phenomenal and the wonderful thing that

you will discover if you take notes to

is that it it makes your partner feel

valued feel important feel like whatever

they're saying is worth noting down

right it blew my mind I had no idea she

felt that those things it's important to

you it's important to you it's so

important that you're going to take

notes on it my partner often says to me

halfway through an argument she says do

you understand what I'm

saying you know and she and I and that's

quite a curious question because I guess

they're checking to see if yeah you've

heard and understood them which clearly

is so important and that's a good way of

indicating that you do understand or at

least you're you know you're hearing and

understanding mhm then you can say well

here's what I understand and then you

know sometimes I'll do that Julie said

no that's not

it what what is it I thought I was

hearing you oh you know and oh I missed

that repair attempts you write about

repair attempts in your books what is a

repair attempt John you know here's the

interesting thing is that most people

don't repair very effectively the way an

argument starts is the way it'll go 96%

% of the time so uh I had this woman

named Nancy draus who came to my lab and

she had written a book of things you can

say when you're starting to get flooded

in an argument it was brilliant book

it's called talk to me like I'm someone

you love and it was really interesting

but she had written these things down

when she was very calm and she wrote the

book that way but we actually went to

the lab and looked at how do couples

actually repair when they try to repair

and what we found was that any thing

that you would do in a business meeting

will fail in a love relationship let's

take a look at our options and evaluate

them what are our priorities here what's

our fundamental goal let's be rational

about this let's be rational about this

let's evaluate the costs of one option

versus another

doomed and the only thing that worked

with somebody would say you know God you

know I'm sorry I I said that you know

let let me try again or they would say

you know um I'm really starting to feel

defensive could you could you say that a

gentler way and those kinds of repairs

that focused on emotion they worked and

the earlier they made them in the

conversation the more effective they

were so these are attempts to repair the

relationship or the argument from one

side of the argument jul right yes in

the middle of the conversation so if one

one person senses it's getting off track

to get it back on track they may say one

of these repair phrases but if the

repair is going to be successful the

other person has to accept the repair so

if John is saying to me hey I'm starting

to feel defensive can you say that you

know in a gentler

way I could either say no way forget it

you deserve all the criticism

which is rejecting the repair or I could

say ah you're right let me let me try

again and say it a different way that's

accepting it but there's also repair

after an argument that has felt horrible

and then how do you process and repair

that terrible communication you had

that's a whole another that's what I was

to say of course it was here

right we're telepathic yeah so that

coming back to it we have a method for

doing that a five-step method for

revisiting a really regrettable incident

that may have happened in the

relationship when you're calmer and and

that's very effective what is that fight

please give it to me yeah let me that

okay so it we actually have a little

booklet that has all this structured out

that a lot of people keep in their glove

compartment because some for some reason

arguments happen when you're going 70 M

an hour down the freeway right never

fails so pull out the book okay in the

booklet the first step is each person

addresses a list of emotions that we've

printed out and says out loud which

emotion they had during this regrettable

incident first of all and they can name

as many as they want and there are

things like hurt angry abandoned

rejected and so on secondly each person

has a chance to describe their point of

view about what happened from beginning

to end of this incident while the other

person here we go again takes

notes so at the end of the person's

narration they then summarize what they

heard that person say to make sure they

got all the good points and then says

something validating like okay from your

point of view I can see why you felt

that way the way it's narrated is

crucial it it sounds like I felt that

you were angry at me I saw this angry

look at your face I heard you say leave

me alone and get out of here I heard I

saw I felt mhm I

imagined so it's all about I it's not

saying you said this mean thing to me

which is critical all right so each

person has a chance to share their

perception that way and their partner

summarizes and validates what they heard

third people look at did I have any

feelings during this that were actual

triggers that were feelings that got

started long before this

relationship in another relationship

maybe or even at home with my caretakers

or my family if those feelings got

triggered again here and now then you

share what feeling got triggered which

we call an enduring

vulnerability and say where it may have

gotten started before this

relationship that's step three step four

you're finally taking responsibility for

what you contributed to this regrettable

incident by saying what was your state

of mind when it happened I was really

stressed I needed time alone you know

Etc and then specifically saying what

you regret saying or doing during the

incident and apologizing for it now note

how late the apology is coming you're

not aping right away because that

doesn't work you don't know what you're

apologizing for if you haven't first

heard the impact of that incident on

your partner so step four is apologizing

and then hopefully your partner accepts

your apology and finally step five is

saying one thing your partner can do

differently one thing you can do

differently to avoid something like this

from happening again then you're done

the repair attempts somewhat sounded

like I was going to say backing down but

it was more like taking an object one of

you taking an objective view on the

situation and kind of stepping outside

and saying I'm feeling like this it's

almost like you're like stepping out of

the video game grabbing the controller

versus being in the video game is that

kind of like an accurate description I

think so yeah yeah cuz sometimes that

does happen in my relationships where my

partner will almost take a meta analysis

on the situation and

go I'm not feeling this or I sorry

uh I like take a meta approach they

almost like step outside and give a

commentary and that diffuses it I don't

think you're listening to me something

like that yeah well they got to be

careful about that they have to be

careful they shouldn't be number one

analyzing you and where you're coming

from and they shouldn't be blaming

you're not listening to me shouldn't do

that but if they say I'm not feeling

listened to right now yeah let me try

again yeah that's great interesting what

about sex and Intimacy in these subjects

what have you learned about the role of

kissing in the love lab interesting yeah

I mean you know we haven't done a lot of

research on sex we we did some in that

newlywed study cuz sex had gone down

dramatically for most couples uh even

three years after the first baby was

born and so we're asking people how did

they cope how did they keep sex alive

but the biggest study done on this

question was done uh in a book that came

out called the normal bar uh Christiano

North is the first author of that and

they analyze 70,000 people in 24

countries and try to discern what's

different about people who say they have

a great sex life and people who say they

have an awful sex life how are those two

groups of people different and they

discovered that it was the same across

the whole planet and and there are

really about a dozen things that people

do have a great sex life and saying I

love you every day and meaning it is one

of them giving

compliments uh romantic gifts having a

lot of touch cuddling so of the people

who don't cuddle only 4% of them said

they had a great sex life 96% of the

non- cuddlers had an awful sex life so

touch is very important important even

physical touch even in public affection

in public was a big thing and really you

know that kind of connection the

romantic date you know the Romantic

vacation that's what they did so nothing

involved kissing or what happened in the

bedroom so none of that is there but

there has been research on just kissing

and it turns out that not every culture

do humans kiss but in the ones they do

kiss is very powerful very erotic for

most most couples and it's a nice

Gateway into eroticism I found this

really interesting study um in your work

where it said a 10-year German study

that found that right said again you can

repeat the study better than I can men

who kiss their wives goodbye when they

leave for work live something like four

years longer than men who don't so and

that's a Priory kiss you know don't

forget Sten they're getting mured being

muted but the sixc kiss which we

recommend has much more potential than

that pick on the she cheek what is the

sixc kiss a kiss that lasts at least six

seconds why not five or four because uh

oxytocin gets secreted with a 20 second

hug or a 6C kiss you're both secreting

oxytocin and that creates a sense of

psychological safety and connection and

bonding and bonding what what do you

think about the subject of um sex Julie

and you know how important it is for a

relationship how much should we be

having sex does it really matter is it a

predictor of long-term success in

marriage great questions um that my

clients ask me a lot and there's huge

variability in sexual preference some

couples actually don't want to have sex

at all both people don't want to have

sex they'd rather have kind of a sibling

relationship ship almost if they're both

content with that then they can have a

very successful relationship some

couples really want to have sex a lot

you know all the time and it's a really

important component of the

relationship uh and everything in

between when you run into trouble is the

following and I've seen this so many

times the men who I guess I would say

are hyper master Uline they think that

cuddling is too infantile so they don't

want to cuddle and the only way they can

accept physical contact which they

desperately need is through sex period

penetrative sex penetrative sex that's

right and the woman has 17 children

she's trying to make dinner you know

she's

exhausted um she may not want to have

sex near nearly as much as he does so he

begins to feel deprived of touch but

instead of complaining about that he

says we're not having enough

sex and she says I'm not getting enough

affection and there you have you know

some conflict that has to get sorted out

it's like they're speaking two different

languages of intimacy you what I mean

basically in a sense they are they are

though typically the in these

relationships really basically need

touch and can they accept cuddling as

something that's just as masculine as

penetrative sex

well if they really think about it and

if they experience it then yeah you C

they can then things really will tend to

improve the research there John is

suggesting though as you said that life

is foreplay because if like the the

kissing on the way out the door and the

touching my partner's back and the

cuddle leads to a better sex life then

we should see life public displays of

affection all that kind of thing as an

investment in what happens tonight in

the bedroom right I think that's really

true every positive thing you do in a

relationship is foreplay and the couples

who a lot of times the couples who stop

having sex have also shut down high

conflict couples of stuff having sex

have shut down

other things other sensual parts of

their lives as well you know they're not

having much fun and you know 80% of the

40,000 couples we studied said that fun

had come to die in the relationship

there was much play there wasn't much

Adventure it wasn't just sex everything

shut down all the things that were

really delightful you know exploring new

kinds of Cuisine you know traveling

uh playing games together you know

playing sports together how do we stop

that happening though you know because

I've often wondered people often said to

me that eroticism and attraction is

about novelty and spontaneousness and

doing all that kind of thing and then

they've said that love is about

familiarity and you know Comfort which

are these are two opposite things let me

answer that the person who said that

it's all about spontaneity and mystery

at so on has never done any research the

research shows that the

familiarity the emotional connection

really knowing your partner creates in

the long run much more passion what much

better sex actually than maintaining

mystery but not really connecting to one

another the way people need to there's a

wonderful book by Emily ngosi called

come as you are that reviews This

research and it shows that first of all

women have more prerequisites for

eroticism than men do Jeffy Chase once

said women need a reason for sex men

need a place that's all so you know but

it's true

men men don't need to feel safe to feel

sexual women do women need to feel

psychologically safe and that means

emotional connection it also means there

can't be a long to-do list of things

that they have to get done that's been

neglected the dog's been taken out you

know and has done his business and all

of that and then the situation feels

erotic to a woman and she's receptive

let me point out something in addition

to that that most men don't know at

least in the United States one out of

four women have been sexually molested

or sexually assaulted by the age of

18 and that's only the women who report

it it's probably one out of three maybe

40% including the ones who haven't

reported it so when women have that

history not not to mention thousands of

years in their bones of being seen only

as sex objects and being raped you know

every other

day you get to understand why women need

safety much more so than men yeah we

wrote a book called The Man's Guide to

women to convey all of these bits of

information that have been researched so

familiarity is the basis for AIC

not for the absence of a rism that's a

myth so I've heard a lot about

epigenetics recently which is this idea

that trauma can be passed on from one

one generation to the next and with that

in mind if women have been sort of sex

objects throughout history and have been

raped and those kinds of things it's

understandable that as you say Julie

that they have like an inbuilt need for

safety that men might not understand in

the same way exactly which what what

does that say for to a man what advice

do you then give to a man is is the

advice you have to make your partner

feel safe for them to be aroused or to

okay yes what else was in that book by

the way it's quite an interesting book I