Every single marriage ends in death or

divorce, but it ends. But the majority

of them end because of slippage. And

what does slippage mean?

Slippage is

James Ston is back.

The world's leading divorce lawyer

with over two decades of experience. He

offers practical nononsense advice for

maintaining healthy relationships.

We live in a society that presumes

marriage is a good idea. You're about to

do something incredibly dangerous that

fails so much of the time. And I think

it has almost nothing to do with love.

But if you get married, here's what I

will tell you. Have you talked about a

prenup? Getting married without one is a

fairly risky activity. But the truth is

is having a child with someone is the

most risky activity in relationships.

There's so much stuff a person can do to

torture you if they have a kid with you.

And what I'll tell you is the people who

are obsessed with their children stop

paying attention to their partner. Which

leads you right to my office.

Okay. So, if you were to give me one

piece of advice to prevent me and my

partner ever ending up in your

consultation room,

if there's a core message to my approach

to relationships, it is that'd be the

only advice I'd ever give to anybody.

James, if you think about the divorces

you've seen in court, was there ever a

case that broke your heart?

Yeah. It was a case that I won that I

should have lost. I remember looking at

the judge and thinking like, you're

letting this happen.

She's going to lose because she's poor

and she can't afford a lawyer. And he's

going to win because he can afford a

lawyer that knows how to put a document

into evidence. And there's something

really wrong about that.

[Music]

This has always blown my mind a little

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for you every single week. We'll listen

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that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much.

James,

our last conversation, I think, did

almost 10 million downloads and views

across platforms. And I can't imagine

the amount of messages you get on a

daily, weekly, monthly basis from people

that are interested in the subject of

divorce, but also the sort of

interconnected subjects of love and and

marriage and all of these things.

When people contact you, what do they

typically say?

You're absolutely right. Right. I mean,

the number of people that contacted me

after our conversation exponentially

increased. It also very much broadened

the pallet of things people contacted me

about. So, a lot of a lot of my prior

work, a lot of my writing prior to our

first conversation was very much tied to

just relationship issues, divorce

related issues. So, I would get a lot of

messages from people saying, "I'm going

through a terrible divorce. I'm dealing

with this situation. you know, even

though you can't represent me because

I'm in a different state or a different

country, could you give me some general

advice? Um, so people would reach out

with very specific to my career topics.

I got a lot of people talking to me

about the conversation we had about our

dogs and about loss and about the nature

of um you know aging and endings and

whether it's the ending of a marriage or

the ending of a dog's life or our own

lives and how the loss of our pets you

know brings us more sharply into focus

about the mortality of everything around

us. So, um yeah, I mostly get people

saying, "Oh, you you gave voice to

something that I'd felt and um it it was

meaningful to me to do that." And I I

try to write people back and just say,

you know, very briefly like, "I'm so

glad that something in my perspective

resonated with you."

If there was one message that you could

give to everyone that messages you. So,

one singular message. It was a broadcast

message and you had to send it to

everybody that's messaged you about all

of these interconnected subjects. But

you could only say a couple of

sentences. And you think it's the couple

of sentences that would most serve all

of them in one go regardless of what

their issues are because it's a

fundamental message about love and

marriage and divorce and all these

things. What would that message be?

I mean, I've always said that I think

the core truth I've learned in my life

is that the hard thing to do and the

right thing to do are usually the same

thing. So, I would I would often

challenge anybody who reaches out to me

about anything that that they're

struggling with, I would say to them

that what is the hard thing to do in

this situation because that's probably

the right thing to do.

The the other thing I would say is that

although I really appreciate that

someone would reach out to me in the

hopes that I could give them some

answer, I I pretty strongly believe that

the only zen you find on mountain tops

is the zen you brought up there. And and

so I think a lot of a lot of the truth

we know when we hear someone say it out

loud, it's it resonates in a way, but

it's because we knew it was true. We

already knew it was true. Maybe that

person gave voice to it.

When you said the thing about Zen and

Mountaintops.

Yeah.

Can you say that again? And what did you

mean?

Yeah. I I mean, you know, you can also

parse it as the only wisdom we find on

mountain tops is the wisdom that we

brought up there. You know, there's

this, you know, there's all of these

sort of Zen parables of the of the monk

who like in Batman Begins, you know,

sort of in his in his flip-flops and

robes sort of wanders up the mountain

through the cold trying to find the Zen

master at the top of the mountain who

has the wisdom that he can then share

with him. And and very often like that

wisdom is inside of all of us. that

wisdom is something that whether we want

to call it our gut, whether you want to

call it your soul, what whatever you

want to call it, that that the wisdom is

inside of you and that um we we we want

I think sometimes to have other people

validate it for us or say it out loud

because perhaps we're not as articulate

about it, but to have someone give voice

to it gives us the ability to go, okay,

okay, so it's not just me. And I think

that's that's what I mean when I say the

wisdom we find on mountain tops. I I

think we travel very very far to find a

joy and a wisdom that's inside all of

us.

On that point, I as you were talking

about it and the reason I was so peeked

by it is I've got so many friends over

the years who have been struggling in

relationships and in their life and in

their marriages who have thought that

the answer to all of those problems was

to basically get on a plane and move

country or city to go somewhere else.

Yeah.

And so when you were saying that I was

thinking I was thinking back to a

conversation I had with my friend many

years ago where he said you know I'm

going to move to Spain

and you know his life was in ruins

really at the time. His relation his

partner had just cheated on him and was

pregnant. Um and he thought moving to

Spain would solve the problems. And I

remember the conversation with him where

I said like by the way all the problems

of buying a plane ticket with you

like they're going to Spain with you.

Wherever you go you know there you are.

And so I had a friend who was a uh a

hairdresser

and I remember once talking to him. It

was while he was cutting my hair and uh

we got on the topic of you know because

both of us are are someone that people

talk to. You know people talk to me

about their problems in their

relationship as a function of my work as

a divorce lawyer. And people sit with

their hair stylist and they'll talk

particularly women will talk for a long

period of time about the things that are

stressing them out and upsetting them.

And what he said to me is, you know, um,

a lot of women in particular come in and

they say, I I want to cut I want to cut

it all off. I want to cut it all off. I

want to cut it very short. I want to cut

it very different. Like, I want just a

whole. And he said, you know, there was

a time early in his career where he

would give them what they were asking

for. So, if they came in with super long

hair and they said, "I want a little

short, very bob cut, you know, he would

do it." And then he would get a call

from them a few days or weeks later

going, "Oh my god, when can you fix it?

like what do we do? And he said what he

started to figure out is what they what

they're really saying is a very human

thing which is I don't want to be me

anymore. Like I don't want to be me

anymore. Like I can't do it. Like it's

all too heavy right now. Like can I stop

being me? Can I look different than me?

Can I because maybe if I look different

than me I'll feel different than me and

maybe I'll do things differently than

the way I've been doing them. And I

think that's so human, you know, to to

say and that's the same thing about okay

that's I'm just going to move. I'm going

to move. I'm going to like I'm I'm just

as guilty of this as anyone. When I've

had a really stressful, difficult week

carrying all of my clients chaos and

stress and there's just bombs falling

from the sky constantly in my line of

work. I go, "That's it. I quit. I'm

done. I'm done. I'm just going to do

media stuff. I'm just going to write

books. I'm not practicing law anymore.

I'm never setting foot in a courtroom

again. Mic drop. I'm out." And the

reality is I'm tired. I'm just tired.

like or okay if it's true that I'm at a

place where transitioning it then just

cut back it's you don't have to cut all

your hair off like you and I said to my

my friend who's the hairdresser so now

what do you do you try to talk them out

of it and he said no he said I I kind of

play a trick he's like I I do something

a little different but not so different

and then I play up in my reaction to it

like oh I love it like this look at how

it's so nice I didn't take as much as

you But I think this is really and he

said and very often they're thrilled

like they just go oh yeah this is great

because it was symbolic like it was a

symbolic thing for them that no I'm

going to do something different and I'm

going to look a little different when I

look in the mirror and when I look in

the mirror it's going to remind me to be

different but that's inside of you like

I I I mean for me

we wake up every single day and decide

to be who we are or to continue being

who we are. Like and and and one of the

reason why this is always so present in

my mind is because as a divorce lawyer,

people have this very clear image of who

they are and what their life's going to

be. And very intentionally, they went

and put on the white dress and the

tuxedo and they took the vows and they

were like, "This is the path. This is

the path. I'm taking this path and this

is who I am. I'm Bob's wife or I'm Jen's

husband and I'm going to be a mom or I'm

going to be a dad and I'm going to this

is what I'm going to And then it blows

up whether it's 5 years later, 10 years

later, 20 years later, when the kids go

off to college, whatever it might be.

And then they're what they're really

struggling with is wait, who am I?

Who am I now? Like the barn's burn down.

What? Like what do I do? Like what? I'm

not Bob's wife. Then what am I? You

know, I'm Bob's ex-wife. That's a

terrible thing to be. I don't want to be

defined by what I'm not anymore and used

to be, you know? So what do I who am I

now? And you know, watching people

over the course of their divorce

navigate that is one of the most

inspirational things in the world

because people are so much stronger and

more resilient than they give themselves

credit for when they're in the crisis of

it.

Was there ever a a particular case that

you think about that broke your heart?

You're going to try to make me cry

again, Stephen. This feels unfair. No,

it's interesting because I I didn't I

was our conversation last time was so

interesting because we spoke so matterof

fact about the the subject of love and

marriage and then for me to also learn

at the same time that you are a deeply

emotional person.

What is the one case?

I I've had a few. I mean, one of them I

wrote about in my book, which was I

represented I it was a case that I won

that I should have lost. I was I

represented a pimp. That's what he did

for a living. And uh he owned a variety

of of illegal businesses. Uh he's in

prison um for a long long time now. But

uh at the time he had uh very brutally

abused uh a woman who he had children

with. And we went to uh fam there was a

family court proceeding and the lawyer

on the other side of the of the case,

the lawyer who represented his um his

co-parent, his victim if you will, um

was very inexperienced. She was an

assigned lawyer, so I was privately paid

as I am and she was assigned by the

state. So she was getting, I think at

the time, $25 an hour, something like

that versus my 750 an hour. And she was

quite new as a lawyer. She was right out

of school. She wasn't quite sure, you

know, of of what to do and how to do it.

And I was fairly experienced. And a

judge who was very impatient, who just

was in a bad mood that day. I don't know

what he had for breakfast or what it

was, but he was an older judge. He'd

been on the bench for probably too long.

He retired a few years later. The key

piece of evidence they had was a

photograph of the way that my client of

this woman's face after my client had

allegedly beat her up quite badly. And

getting a photograph into evidence is

very easy, but it requires a very

specific phrasing. So what you say is,

"I'd like this to be marked for

identification." You mark the photo and

then you hand it to the witness or you

hand it to the court officer who hands

it to the witness and you say, "I'm

showing you what's been marked as

petitioners one for identification." Do

you recognize that? Yes. What do you

recognize it to be? It's a photograph.

Does that photograph fairly and

accurately depict your face after he

beat you up? Or does it accurately

reflect your face on the date you've

been discussing? Yes, your honor. I'd

like it put into evidence. That's it.

It's easy. Does it fairly and accurately

depict?

For whatever reason, most likely lack of

experience, opposing council,

I guess, didn't know how to get a

photograph into evidence. Now normally

in that situation a judge will be

helpful like they will just jump in and

say ma'am is this fairly but this judge

was just not in the mood and posing

councel said um I'd like this to be

marked and then she said could you hand

to the witness and she said what is that

a photo of so I did my job I said

objection she's asking about the

contents of a document not an evidence

which is my job

judge said sustain

which means

which means my objection is correct. So

she said, "Uh, okay. Uh, I'm sorry. Uh,

who took this photo?" And she said, "I I

I don't I don't know who took it." She

says, "Okay, well, what what is it a

photo of?" Stood up again. Objection,

asking about the contents of a document,

not an evidence. And I could see

opposing council getting flustered

because she didn't know the words. And

my internal dialogue

at that moment was

just say it like just get it right. Like

just say just say fair does it fairly

inaccurately depict is it just say it

like and and and I I remember looking at

the judge and thinking like you're

letting this happen.

You're letting this happen. Don't let

this happen. Like she's poor.

She's poor. That's that's why she's

going to lose.

She's going to lose because she's poor

and she can't afford a lawyer. And he's

going to win because he can't afford a

lawyer that knows how to put a document

into evidence. And there's something

really wrong about that.

And the judge didn't the judge just let

her drown. And she she asked three or

four more questions that were the wrong

questions. And then she just said, "Um,

I I don't I don't know. I don't know

what to say. I'm sorry." And then she

just sat down and the case got

dismissed.

And we walked out. And as we walked out,

my client patted me on the back and he

said, "You know, a good lawyer is better

than 20 stickup men."

And I remember thinking,

"This is this is not a good day. It's

not a good day." And

that case that was a long time ago and

it's it still stayed with me because it

it was I did my job and I I you know I

represent my client but I also represent

the system and I don't always believe in

my client but I have to believe in the

system and I have to believe that I am

not it's not my right to judge people's

case. It's the judge's right like like I

believe in this system. I believe in the

adversarial system, but watching

someone lose who shouldn't lose

and winning when you know you shouldn't

win does not feel good in this line of

work.

Would you take that case again? Exact

same case, exact same person, exact same

scenario. You're asked to go and do it

again tomorrow. Same opposition lawyer.

I would. Yeah. Well, first of all, it's

many years later and I still know that

lawyer and she's actually become a

really good one and I'm really proud of

that.

If she was equally inexperienced, the

same woman, the same circumstances, the

same victim,

you know, if I knew it was going to go

that way, I probably I would turn it

down. I mean, I turned down a lot of

cases. I don't actually know if today I

would represent him anymore. It's a hard

question for me to answer. I see. I

think you don't always you don't know in

the consultation

and like it's not like this guy came

into my office and said, "Yeah, I beat

this woman terribly.

Will you retain will you represent me?"

Like that's very different. No one's

ever done that in my in my office. Like

he came in and he said, "Yeah, she's

accusing me of all these horrible

things. I didn't do any of it."

But you knew he did.

In my gut, I think I knew he did. Yeah.

the more I got to know him. I mean, in a

consultation, you don't know. Like, in a

job interview, you don't know what kind

of employee somebody's going to be. You

know, sitting across from someone in a

1-hour consultation, most of the time,

I'm talking telling them about their

rights and obligations and how the legal

process works. Like, I don't really get

to know them. But throughout the

process, I started to figure out like,

yeah, there's this guy did this.

You said you turned down a lot of cases,

you know, these days. Yeah.

What are the kind of cases that you

would absolutely turn down irrespective

of remuneration?

I turn down cases where I feel like the

person I mean a lot of times I turn down

cases that I don't think they need me.

Like I don't think you need to bring a

gun to a knife fight. Like I think if

you can do it with a scalpel, don't use

a chainsaw. And I'm a chainsaw. So like

don't you don't need me. And so I I I

I'm very honest with people about you

don't need me. I'm not the right tool

for the task. But there are a lot of

cases I turn down that I think people

are using. They want to weaponize the

legal system to punish their ex for

their transgressions, real and

perceived. Like they want to their

spouse was cheating on them and they

want to just litigate them into

submission. They want them force them to

spend a million dollars in council fees

by making ridiculous motions and by

minimizing, you know, their access to

the kids and making them fight for every

single hour of visitation they get with

the kids. Like I I'm not interested in

being a weapon that's used for

Yeah.

for that purpose.

Presumably sometimes your job is to get

custody of kids essentially all the

time,

which means that you're you're basically

taking children away from

a parent.

You can look at it that way.

It's a harsh way to say it, but

I've jokingly said that before cuz when

my kids were little and they would have

those like, you know, bring your dad to

school day

and you know, it was like, "Oh, this is

my dad. He's a firefighter. And this is

my dad. that he's a doctor. And I always

felt like my sons were like, "This is my

dad. He's the reason why your

firefighter dad only sees you on

alternate weekends, you know, and that

felt a little strange, you know, and

there were times where actually I my

kids were in school with people whose

divorces I had I had handled um you

know, their their parents. But yeah, I I

I think um I do have a tremendous impact

on on people's access to their children,

both positive and negative. Like I help

I help people get access to children

that's being withheld from them. I help

people um address parental alienation

and negative gatekeeping, the kinds of

things that are really becoming much

more insidious and prevalent in our

culture where where people are using

children essentially as weapons against

their ex who they're mad at. I mean,

look, breakups on any level are

difficult, you know, and and there's

usually hurt feelings and anger in a

breakup. And I don't think that's

abnormal. Like I think you lose someone

whether it's to death or whether it's to

divorce or just to split up. There's

some anger, you know, there's

resentment. Why don't you love me? Why

don't you love me the way I love you?

Why don't you want to be with me

anymore? What does this say about me?

Does this mean I'm a bad person because

you don't want to be with me anymore?

Like this these are really universal

themes. Like there's almost no one in

the world in any culture that if you go

to them breakups that they don't go, you

know, they get it. Like they get it.

My friend's going through a breakup at

the moment. Um he's been with his

partner for many, many years. And I when

he sent me the voice note explaining

like we've been together eight years,

we've kind of broken up four times, but

um my the he's being broken up with. So

he's the he's the sort of victim, per

se. And

which is the better one to be

really? Oh yeah.

You want someone to break up with you?

Oh, I mean well here's what I'll say cuz

I' I'm have something of a PhD in this

one. I I have to tell you when someone

has been broken up with there's a

tremendous amount unless it was by some

patently awful behavior. you know, like

they got caught with the girlfriend or

the boyfriend red-handed, like then it's

no one's going to give you much

sympathy. But if someone dumps you,

like it's not it's not me, it's you.

Like they just dump you.

There's a tremendous amount of sympathy.

Like if somebody call if I called you

and I said, "Dude, I just got broken up

with." You'd be like, "Oh me, come on,

man. Let's let's go out. Let's tough,

man. We've all been there. Like don't

tell you know what happened." But when

you break up with someone,

there's only so much sympathy people

will give you because, you know, well,

we broke up. If you're so upset about

it, get back. What did you do it for

then? Like you whereas sometimes, you

know, you're just the one who called it

like it's not it wasn't a happy

relationship. It wasn't like you're sad

that it had to end, you know, like I

didn't want to break up. I wanted the

relationship to stay good and it didn't.

So, one of us has to be the grown-up and

say, "Okay, this thing's over now." But

I think that person actually sometimes

deserves, you know, just as much

sympathy as someone who got dumped

because they're both someone who's

experiencing a loss of sorts, even if

it's a loss that it's, you know, I mean,

it's a terrible metaphor. But if someone

said to you, "I have lung cancer." You

would go, "Oh my god, that's horrible."

Like, "Are you okay?" If someone said,

"Well, I was a smoker for 50 years and I

got lung cancer." It's not like YOU GO,

WELL, WHAT DID YOU THINK? I MEAN now

it's of course you're still going to go

oh my god that's terri it's not like you

deserve it. It's I mean yes is it

SHOCKING IT'S NOT AS SHOCKING if you've

been smoking for 50 years but it's still

quite sad and it's still a journey this

person's going to have to go through. So

it's the same thing. It's like I I just

went through a breakup. Well who's who

picked who decided to break up with who

before I tell you if I feel bad for you

or not. Like I don't think that's a fair

way to approach a breakup.

A lot of people want to own the they

want to own it. They want to say that

they broke up with them, right? As well

because that

it's very popular.

Well, there's something empowering about

that.

Yeah. It was my decision.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or the like, well,

I'm glad they did because I I'll tell

you the truth, I was about to I was

about to break up with that person, you

know. Yeah. That's very common. I think

that's a pride thing, though, because,

you know, there's something about the

rejection

of it's over, you know, a great example

of this for me, which is is very um it's

always vexed me professionally. So, a

lot of people um I've handled a lot of

divorces where someone

uh breaks up with in a heterosexual

marriage because they are coming out as

gay or lesbian. Okay? So, they end the

relationship. So, in in the heterosexual

example, man and a woman are married to

each other for a period of time and the

man says, "I'm ending things with you

because I'm gay. I've realized that I'm

gay and I'd like to live my life as a

gay man.

my thinking as someone who's never had

that happen to me. My thinking, and

perhaps it's naive, like my experience

has taught me that maybe I'm just

strange, which I kind of knew, but this

is another example of it. If if a woman

broke up with me

and said, "I'm breaking up with you

because I'd like another man better than

you." That's very hard to swallow. It's

like I want one like you but better than

you. Whereas if she said I'm leaving you

cuz I'd like to go be with a woman now.

It's like well I mean I don't I don't

have that. Like I can't give you that.

It's not like I want someone who's a

better dancer. I want someone who's

funnier. I want someone who has

different parts than you. And okay. I

mean that feels a little less like a

reject. You're not rejecting me

necessarily. You're rejecting my entire

sort of gender. you're you're basically

saying this isn't who I want. The

opposite actually happens. It it it

those are some of the most brutal and

vitriolic awful divorces you could

possibly imagine. And they've actually

gotten worse over the span of my career

because over the 25 years span of my

career, when I started,

when someone said, "Okay, my husband is

leaving because he's gay and now he's

going to live as a gay man." it was

actually okay to then say, "Yeah, and

he's a pervert and a horrible human

being." And because there was just such

a widespread homophobia at the time. I

mean, you know, Will and Grace, like

Will couldn't even kiss his boyfriend on

TV. He couldn't really even have a

boyfriend. It was like so, you know,

young young people today have no idea

how in my lifetime that that has changed

so much. Not to say there isn't still

homophobia, not that there's still not

heteronormativity, but the reality has

changed tremendously. the boots on the

ground reality. Now, if your spouse

leaves you for a if if I was married and

my spouse left me for a woman and I'm

upset about it, I'm opening myself to an

accusation of being homophobic.

And and the truth is like, no, whoever

she's leaving me for, it's really

upsetting. or whoever she's been

sleeping with, male, female, anything.

It's upsetting because they're with

another person. So, I I think there is

in that phenomenon of people's breakups,

the sense of like, well, I was going to

break up with them anyway, is like a

pride thing. I think I think there is a

tremendous amount of um of stuff that we

carry around when it comes to those

breakups. I've always wondered what

heartbreak actually is because I I I

flip between thinking okay it's like you

mentioned the word rejection is it a

blow to our self-esteem is it the loss

of a future that we had like built in

our head

because yes

if you can understand what it is I was

thinking about how do I give my friend

advice on it then I then I know what the

advice should be or the support should

be because if it's a loss of this future

then okay I you know I know I'll say

this if it's his self-esteem okay I'll

boost his self-esteem.

Yeah. So, I think it's all of those

things, but I I think it's it's it's an

ending. And I think that endings are

hard. I think that saying to

what I always try to do when I have

friends going through a breakup and even

with clients is that, you know, every

beginning is born of some other

beginning's end.

So, we talked about this the last time

we sat down together where I said that,

you know, I only got Cabba because

Buster died,

which is your dog's.

Yeah. my my dog that passed away 13 14

years ago and my dog that's now 13 years

old and and one one I only got one

because the other died and I love both

of those dogs so much but if I'm being

honest I guess I have to say I'm glad

that I lost Buster so that I could have

Cabba that that sounds terrible because

I don't mean it like oh I'm glad that he

but death like that ending was part of

life just and it made room for the

beginning of the next thing and what I

always try to focus my clients on is

that this relationship is ending and

that's there's there has to be honoring

that, mourning that, feeling that,

seeing it as the transition that it is,

grieving the loss of it, but also

realizing that every ending is the

beginning of the next thing. And and

there has to be an ending for the next

thing to come and for the next beginning

to happen. And I have now watched that

cycle for so thousands of clients over a

span of 25 years where where their life

is ending. Who they I was this person's

husband. I was this person's wife. I was

a dad who lived with his kids full-time

that had them every Thanksgiving. Not

every other Thanksgiving. That I had

them every Christmas Eve, not alternate

years. On in even years they're with me.

In odd years they're with her. Like what

are you talking about? like this is who

I am. Who I'm dying, like who I am is

dying. And I don't know who I'll be

next. And

when you're in that, right? And when

it's your first divorce, it's not mine,

but it's yours. You know, it's very hard

to see like just just like when

someone dies, you know, when when Buster

died, I I said it last time. I I said,

"I will never do this again. I will

never love anything like this ever

again. I'll never let my heart be broken

like this again. I'll never open myself

up like this again. Ever. Never. This is

the worst pain. Why would I ever do

this? Loving anything is stupid. It's

insane. You're opening yourself up to

the inevitability of loss. And yet

Cabba was the such a joy. And now

I'm near the end of that. And and what

do you do?

Well, I I like to believe that now I'm

not saying that's not going to be as

painful when it happens. It will be. But

I no longer believe the world is ending.

Like I understand that like the beauty

of who he is was born of the emptiness

that had to be created by the loss of

Buster. Like I I understand that now.

And so I like I said, will I do it

again? There's going to be a period of

time where I'll say, "No way." And same

thing with love. Like people get

divorced. I had a client last week say

to me, they're they're right kind of in

the middle of their divorce. And I said,

you know, 86% of people are remarried

within 5 years of their divorce. And

they said, "Uh, oh, I am never doing

that. Are you kidding? I am never doing

this again." And every time they say

that, I laugh cuz I think to myself, I'm

like, "You're so wrong." And I get it.

Like, you don't see it right now. Like

right now I know you think that's true

like but you will love again and you

will when you love again like you will

feel it and you will be in it and you

will go a and this one's perfect and

this is great. Like I've done divorces

for people that spent a million dollars

in council fees and went through

absolute hell and and when they're about

to get remarried I go you know we should

do your prenup so you don't ever have to

do that again. Like I'll do it for free

if you want. like let's just do and they

go no no no no this this is real this is

real and I sit there and I think like oh

my god you've just you've learned

nothing at all like you that was real

too until it wasn't like but but this is

you know perhaps you know love is a

delusion brought on by an adequate

lighting I don't know but there's

there's something in us that you know

feels that pain and then there's

something in us that forgets that pain

and I think that that you know that's a

good thing that's a good cycle

I think life is a game you can't win and

so you play it to the utmost. To love

anything is insane because you are

accepting that you're going to lose it.

It's a quote you said. You think life is

a game you can't win.

Yeah. I don't think there's any winning.

You die.

Like that's the only truth. The only the

you know it

every story you know starts the same.

You were born. Like every Wikipedia page

starts the same. They were born. And

every Wikipedia page will end exactly

the same. They died. That's it.

Everything that happens in between is

your life. But those are the only two

inevitabilities. Those are the only two

real things for certain. So I I look at

it as it's a game you can't win.

Meaning

if you pursue money like your money will

eventually be useless. The things you

accumulate with it will be useless.

Every car you own, someone else will

either own it someday or it'll get to

the scrap junkyard someday or it'll

you'll give it to somebody. Like it's

all your material possessions will be

utterly meaningless. Like we all went

through this when the COVID lockdowns

first started. Everybody was like, you

know, I've got all this money and I've

got all these travel vouchers. And

they're like, yeah, you can't go

anywhere now. And it's like, oh, okay.

Well, what do I the, you know, you

started to see the limitations of

things. Have the power go out in your

house sometime. And it'll remind you

that like, oh, wait, yeah, like

everything I have, I just have like this

much of a grip on it. All you got to do

is just take that away and it's gone.

And that's that's it, you know? And it's

the same thing with our health. It's the

same thing with, you know, everything

like everything is totally fine and

wonderful and then you have a terrible

splitting headache and then the only

thing that matters is that headache, you

know, and then that headache goes away

and for like a day you go, I don't have

that headache anymore. But did you wake

up today and go, I don't have a

headache. Oh, and the power's on. Isn't

that great? You know, and I don't have

cancer. Isn't that good? You know, no,

you don't. you walk around going like,

"Ah, you know, I really why aren't why

aren't my page views where they're at or

what happened with this and why did that

person be so nasty to me?" Like we get

caught up in all this stuff when in fact

the only thing that you know again if

you keep you know uh uh Epictatis the

stoic philosopher said like keep death

and everything horrible in your line of

sight sort of momento mori because

nothing will bother you that much if you

have that there. So I think life is a

game that look we're playing it. We're

doing our thing. Love is but all love

all relationships end. Every single

marriage ends in death or divorce but it

ends. Every relationship ends. Your

child you will hopefully predesce your

child but your child will die someday.

That's the nature of it. So we have

created a culture where we really try

not to talk about that. We really try to

just keep that out of our gaze. Let's

not talk about it. Our only depictions

of death are preposterous.

They're like the person in the deathbed

being like I loved you all

and then just beautiful, you know,

beautifully die. Death doesn't look like

that. If you ever spent time with people

on their deathbed, I I I was a hospice

volunteer for many many years and I

spent a lot of time with people who were

dying, actively dying. And I have to

tell you, like you hang out with someone

who's it's it's it's not pretty. It

doesn't smell good. It doesn't sound

good. But it's real. It's natural. It's

okay. It's where it's all going. And and

the reason why I say this is not to be

morbid. It's that we're doing ourselves

a tremendous disservice by not

acknowledging this. Because I can tell

you how many families when I was a

hospice volunteer when their family

member, their loved one would die would

say to me, "It's not that they died,

it's that they died terribly. They died

without dignity." And I would say to

them, "No, they they died like everyone

dies." Like it's okay. Like they just

because it wasn't like on TV where you,

you know, like sort of fade out and say

a few final words and then fade out.

LIKE NO ONE VERY FEW IF anyone dies that

way. It's not how it works. So, we're

not doing anyone like this is the part I

don't understand is that we don't want

to talk about divorce, you know, we

don't want to talk about death. We don't

want to talk about endings cuz I think

there's something in our brain that says

if we talk about it, we're going to make

it happen. And if we don't talk about

it, we'll prevent it from happening. And

that seems to me insane because this

these are things that are absolutely

inevitable when it comes to death and

highly likely when it comes to divorce.

So why not bring them back into the

discourse? And I'll tell you the truth.

I think one of the reasons why

my conversations have become something

people are interested in is because I

think we're all fascinated by this but

we don't want to talk about it over

dinner conversation and we don't want to

you know but but we know it's important

something in us knows this is important

like this is something that needs to be

talked about and thought about.

You did your thesis,

your master's thesis on the subject of

death titled

Well, you do your research

on metaphor and mortality, the semantics

of death and dying.

Yeah.

Why would you write your thesis on the

subject of death?

Well, it was a different life. So, I

this is before I went to law school. I I

had gotten out of I got out of college

with a degree in psychology and I

decided I wanted to um I was a hospice

volunteer. I I um

why

I have to ask my therapist that

question. I I I can give you the answer.

So I when I was quite young uh I think I

was about six or seven years old, my

mother was diagnosed with a very rare

form of cancer called leoyio saroma.

It's a soft tissue saroma

and it's it's very rare. I was way too

young to understand what was going on. I

I just I remember my mother crying, the

sound of my mother crying in the

bathroom and running the sink so I

wouldn't hear her crying, but I I knew

she was crying. I didn't really

understand what death was. Like I

understood that my gerbil had died, but

I I grew up Catholic, so I remember like

you got to go to heaven and that sounded

pretty good because it was like a really

nice place apparently.

And I remember hearing my mother talking

on the phone to her sister and talking

about the fact that she had six months.

And I remember my sister who's six years

older than me explaining to me that mom

was sick and she wasn't going to get

better. And I remember being so young

that I didn't really understand what

that meant, but it was scary and

everyone was very upset.

And then my mom didn't die. What had

happened is depending on how you looked

at it either it was a miracle or it was

science and that is that the tumors had

encapsulated itself meaning that the the

immune system had essentially closed up

around it so it didn't metastasize or

spread in any way they went in they did

surgery memorial slunketing cancer

center and uh she was fine she was well

and then five or six years later it came

back and again I got told your mom has

six months to live At that point, I was

like old enough to understand what that

meant. And I was terrified by it. I was

saddened by it. And once again, she had

surgery. She had all kinds of procedures

and things that had to happen to deal

with it. But once again, she just

miraculously sort of ducked a bullet and

she made it. And three years later, it

came back again.

And then they said, "Your, you know,

your mom has six months to live." And I

remember by that point thinking, "Yeah,

you you don't know how many times we've

had this conversation. Like, I don't

believe you anymore." Like, and and it's

okay. Like, I'm not afraid because I'm

not like it's not going to happen. I

know that something's going to happen

and it'll work out. And it did. Once

again, she had surgery again. She had

seven surgeries over the course of my

into my 20s. And every single time the

prognosis was bad and every single time

they kind of took more pieces of her

unfortunately because the type of cancer

this is sometimes gets into other

organs. And so they had to take you know

they had to take her ovaries forced her

into menopause in her 30s. Then they had

to take they had to change the way her

they had to do a bowel resection. They

had to do all kinds of awful things. And

uh and it changed her. It was a painful

life for my mom. It was very hard. And I

remember

though from a very young age being

forced to think about death, being

forced to sort of see death as something

that was just there and that it was part

of things and that there was no way

around it. And it it just became

familiar. It became sort of this

person in our home, you know, this

possibility that was always there.

And I remember every time I would get

the call that my mom's cancer had come

back, there would be some part of me

that thought, "Oh, is this the phone

call?" Like, "Is this the one where this

time she's going to die? Like, is this

the one?" And most of the time it

wasn't.

And 10 Yeah. 10 years ago,

um, once again, she had a recurrence.

She was supposed to have a very complex

surgery. My dad and I sat in the waiting

room. My parents were married for 50

years. And uh we sat in the waiting

room. It was supposed to be an 8-hour

surgery because it was very complicated.

And the doctor came into the waiting

room a half an hour into the surgery and

said, you know, we opened her up. It's

like a bomb went off. There's nothing we

can do. We're going to close her up and

put her on hospice.

And um she passed away eight years ago

after you know she was on hospice for

over a year. Um and she died with us all

around her.

And there was something

about the reality that we had been able

to talk about death for so long that

there was a tremendous peace there. Like

there was a tremendous sense of well

this was going to happen. You know this

was part of our life. you know that this

was what was going to happen and she had

a tremendous piece about her because it

had been part of her life for so long.

So when I was in my late teens, I think

my mom had had three or four rounds of

this this cancer thing. I just remember

thinking

I I have to confront this. I have to

spend time around death. You know, I

again I'm strange. You know, I was

always afraid of spiders. I didn't like

spiders when I was a kid. So when I went

off to college, I bought a tarantula and

I put it in a glass terrarium next to my

bed so that every morning I would wake

up and there was just this giant spider

sitting there next to me and I'm not

afraid of spiders anymore. And it it got

rid of that very quickly. And so I

thought, you know, this is something

that's been around me all the time and

it's something I'm not quite at peace

with, so I'm going to confront it. And I

went and did a hospice volunteer

training. And I remember I, you know, it

was a weird thing for like a 20-year-old

to do. I had just gotten out of college.

I was 21. And uh I think I was the only

person under 60 who was in this

volunteer training. And hospice

training. Hospice volunteer training I

would recommend to anyone

because they do things like they make

you write your eulogy.

Your own eulogy.

Your own eulogy. Yeah. Yeah. They make

you write your own eulogy. Like and it

can either be if you died right now,

what would the eulogy be? Um or if you

died in your idealized future, what

would it be? Um, they make you write

your own obituary. Like they make you

confront the reality of thinking about

death and and thinking about your own

death and death of the people around

you. And then after you've been through

the training, they assign you families.

And

I intended initially just to do it as

sort of a part-time thing in the summer

after I'd graduated college. I was

working as a waiter and I had a lot of

time during the day because at night I

was I was waiting tables and um I got

assigned to a bunch of families one at a

time and and I I loved it. It was the

most

it was the most it was the most

life-changing thing I've ever done. Like

it it it uh there is something about

when you're a hospice volunteer and

you're just brought into a home and

you're just there to be of service. like

you're just if they want to talk, we'll

talk. If you want me to help do the

dishes so that you can hang out with

your loved one, that's great. I'll do

that. Like I I did yard work. And a lot

of times like people cuz caring for

someone who's terminally ill in your

home is hard. And and like things like I

want to run out to the store and get a

few things myself. Like that's hard

because you don't want to leave this

person alone. So a lot of times I was

just there to sort of be relief just to

sit with someone. And um and and every

time I would walk out of a hospice

home, I felt like

I don't know. I felt like a Zen monk. I

felt like like I could hear the rain.

Like I just felt like

I'm alive.

Like I'm like that that's not happening

to me yet. Like I'm not there yet. Like

that's not that's not someone I love in

that bed. Like I I have love for this

person. and I want to be there for them.

I'm here of service, but that's not my

father. That's not my brother. That's

not me. It will be someday. And one day

it was. One day it was my mother. But it

wasn't me. And I have to tell you,

there's something about going through

that experience when you're in your 20s,

when you're so self-centered, and you're

supposed to be. You're kind of supposed

to be self-centered in your 20s. You're

supposed to say like, "All right, what

am I going to do with this life? What am

I going to do with these hands? What am

I?" But there is something about at that

stage in life to be told whatever you do

with these hands, whatever you do with

all this, that's where it's going to

end. That's where it's going to end.

Best case scenario, best case scenario,

it's going to be in your own home with

your family around you. Worst case

scenario, it's going to be on the street

somewhere prematurely, you know. So, I

was fascinated with death. And I I

decided I was going to go to graduate

school and I was going to study than I

was going to study death and dying. But

there really aren't any programs in

that. So I went to New York University's

Department of Culture and Communication

and I found um uh Neil Postman, Dr. Neil

Postman, who was going to be my because

NYU of back then and still gives you a

lot of opportunities to kind of create

your own curriculum. As long as it's

something serious, you know,

academically serious, and as long as you

can put together like an amalgam of

classes from different disciplines,

they'll let you put together something

very individualized. And so I put

together a a study about our the

cultural approaches we have to death and

dying. And my master's degree thesis was

called the semantics of mortality or or

I'm sorry metaphor and mortality the

semantics of death and dying. And it was

published in a journal called etc um

which is the journal of general

semantics. And it what I did is I

studied the words we use to talk about

death and what they reflect on how we

think about death. So like you know I

remember when I was a kid and our our

dog when I was a child had to be um had

to be euthanized. I remember the doctor

saying we're going to put him to sleep.

And I remember thinking no you're not.

He's going to die. He's not going to

sleep. Like I'm going to go to sleep

later. Like he's not going to go to

sleep. He's going to go to death. like

why are you calling it that? And I

understood why obviously as an adult

like it's a in a primitive culture

someone it's an eternal sleep. It looks

like I mean you're asleep you look like

your dad you know I've held a mirror

under something be like all right and I

will I understand where these med like

doctors I I explored doctors talking

about we lost the patient like what what

you don't know where he is like no you

you know what room he's in no we lost

the battle the battle against death

you're definitely going to lose that

battle like that's they death's record

is amazing death always wins like so if

you're setting it up for that battle.

Like that's a that's a bad battle.

We just don't want to confront it

though, do we? That's the essence of why

we use the words like pass on, pass,

which is fascinating to me because it is

the only certainty we have and we act as

if we are certain it's something bad

when in fact absolutely no one can say

with certainty what it is and what

happens except that it's inevitable.

Having spoke to so many people in their

final days, weeks and months and final

minutes, I'm really compelled to

understand what I can learn from them

about how I should be living my life

based on the types of things they then

say to you, focus on prioritize.

Yeah, that's it's that is true. Like you

can learn a tremendous amount from that.

And here's what I will tell you. I

learned they don't talk about death.

Like you go through this hospice

training where they're they're they're

very much preparing you to talk with

people about their fear about their

death or their imminence of their death

and all people really want to talk about

is their grandkids, their kids, their

wife, their husband, what they did for a

living and what they liked about it.

Like most of the time people talk about

like the things that made them happy.

Like I I spent a lot of time just

listening to people tell me about tell

me happy stories about their life.

telling me moments that and it made a

lot of sense to me. Like it made a lot

of sense to me. Like if I said to you

right now like what are five moments in

your life where you just felt loved and

happy like you could stop and close your

eyes and and and there'd be like and and

what a comfort it would be like to have

those. And every once in a while like

when you're in that moment you go I'm in

one of those right now. like I'm gonna

remember this moment, you know, and but

most of the time you don't like most of

the time it just happens and then you

look back and you go, "God, I remember

that kiss, you know, or remember that,

you know, that meal or remember that and

and you don't see it when it's

happening." And that for me is is what I

really learned from doing hospice work

was that like all these people wanted to

tell me about was, you know, when they

were alive, like really alive, not

laying in a bed dying. Like they want to

talk about like, yeah, I did this or I

saw that. And, you know, I I learned it

in my mom's passing. I remember my last

day with my mom before she became so ill

that she was not mobile and and not not

really functional to have a discussion

with. I just remember we just sat there

and I told her about like how great my

sons were doing, her grandchildren, how

great they were doing and and I talked

about how happy I was and like just how

great life is and how great I feel. And

I just remember like she just was I

remember thinking like, "Oh, that's what

I would want." Like I would want to know

that like, "Yeah, you did it. Like you

did great. Like look at look at all this

stuff that's here because of you, you

know?" And to me, like that that's what

hospice work very much taught me was it

it it taught me that that um no one's

really going to care that much about you

know some of this stuff that seems so

important. Like it's just not

that important. like like the people

talked about their kids, they talked

about their grandkids, they talked

about, you know, the love of their life

or if they if they had survived that

love and and they, you know, they talked

about how like, oh, maybe, you know,

maybe I'm going to get to see them

again, you know, and and it's very funny

because I I remember

I remember talking to someone a few

years ago and saying something about,

"Oh, you know, I wish my mom had been

alive to see me do you know this thing

and they said oh I I you know I I bet

she's seeing it like I bet she's seeing

it from you know cuz this person was

religious and I remember thinking you

know I don't believe that but I really

hope I'm wrong

like I really hope I'm wrong that would

be amazing like that'd be wonderful it'd

be beautiful you know so I I think

hospice for me the reason why I I got

into the hospice work the reason why my

research interests became death related

um was that that Uh, I just think life

is better when you have those things in

front of you. When you when you remind

yourself of the inevitability of

endings.

We're just the imagination of ourselves.

Those are words that you said. You said

we're just the imagination of ourselves.

There's nothing to be afraid of.

Everything's connected. We're just in

one state of being now and then we'll be

in a different state of being. There's

probably a benevolent force out there.

That was something that came to me as a

function of of of um of my my

experiences with psychedelics very early

in my life is um was that realization

was the realization that everything is

connected and that there is some

benevolent something underneath all of

it and that there's nothing to be afraid

of. And I think some of that was a

function of course of of growing up in

an environment where you couldn't deny

death where it was sort of always

present. And perhaps that was on my mind

at that stage in my life when when I had

those profound experiences. But um

that's stayed with me. That's never gone

away. That's been very um very much a

part of my view of things that that um

that perhaps we are just one

consciousness experience itself

subjectively and that we we are just you

know I heard what was it Pete Holmes the

comedian recently talking about how you

know people say that like oh we came

from nothing I don't believe in God I

believe in nothing and you know he has

this whole bit about him he's like

really so like instead of believing in

God which is something that you can't

touch can't prove, can't photograph, and

science can't prove or disprove. You

believe in nothing, which is something

you can't see, touch, feel, science

can't prove or disprove. Like, so if

you're nothing just spontaneously, you

know, creates everything, that's pretty

impressive. Nothing in the scheme of

things. So I think I think that I am

very much a believer in the fact I like

to believe whatever the name of it is

whatever we want to call it having spent

a lot of time with hospice patients and

having thought a lot about death

I I'd like to think that we you know we

are drops of water and that when we die

we return to the sea that we just merge

with our creator again. And I'm not I'm

not really worried that Jim stops

existing like cuz I don't remember what

I was before Jim. So I have no reason to

think it was something terrible and I

don't know what I'll be after I'm Jim.

But I have no reason to think it's going

to be something terrible. It could just

as easily be it's going to be something

fantastic and that I'm going to get

there and go, "What? What? Why didn't I

get here sooner?" you know, and if there

was a god, then he might greet me and be

like, "Yeah, why are you guys so fixated

on not getting here? It's awesome." You

know, like that temporary thing, like

there's a reason why as an organism

you're supposed to just there's all

these things that'll kill you. Like it's

supposed to be that that happens sooner

rather than later. But like that's it's

a very uncomfortable thought. Like it's

an uncomfortable thought that like this

might be hell or this might be the part

that we should be afraid of. Like this

might be the part that's really hard.

Like maybe what's before it and what's

after it's really the easy part and

what's happening here is what's

challenging. Like when someone dies.

I've always thought to myself like when

someone dies like the people who suffer

are the living. Like the person who's

passed they're gone now. That's why I

never believed in the death penalty

because they were like we're going to

punish this person by they're going to

die. I'm like, well, my grandmother

died. I I didn't like to think that it

was a punishment. Like, put them in a

box, feed them terrible food. That that

sounds like a punishment, you know,

like, you know, make them watch bad TV.

I don't know, something. But death,

like, death to me doesn't I don't like

to think of death as a punishment. I I I

I'm enjoying this ride and I'm enjoying

this body and I'm enjoying all of this,

but I'm not terrified of that. I'm

genuinely curious. I'm genuinely

curious. And when the time comes, I want

to face it with open with, you know,

clean hands and an open heart.

Where does acceptance play in dealing

with an ending? Like how important is it

to accept? And when you when you meet

your clients as a divorce lawyer now, is

part of the suffering the resistance to

accept the situation?

Yes. even if it you it wasn't your fault

because you know this is sometimes

people conflate this idea of acceptance

with like you know justification I'm not

saying justification I'm saying accept

this is the situation you find yourself

in

yeah I I think that's very very astute

and very real I think there's a step

before acceptance there's a number of

steps before acceptance but but the

first one is acknowledgement like I

think you have to acknowledge that

something is happening before you can

start because acceptance has to do with

adjusting your emotional state and

reaction to it. Changing the level of

tension in your body about it. You know,

like every time I've ever gone to the

dentist, you know, there's this part of

me it's like, "Oh, here it comes. Oh

god, here it comes. This is going to

hurt. Here it comes." You know, and it's

like I'm ready. I'm bracing. I'm

bracing. And And I have to remind myself

like, "Wait, stop. Don't do that."

Yeah. Stop. Soften. Soften. Soften over

and over. Soften. It's one of the

reasons I love Brazilian jiu-jitsu

because when you're a white belt in

Brazilian jiu-jitsu, everything is like

resisting everything, you know, trying

to stop everything and and then you you

start to learn like, oh, no, no, no,

like soften, like yield, like just, you

know, protect the neck, move the hand.

Okay, go ahead. Try and choke me. Like,

you're not going to do it. Like, and and

there's something about that like not

trying to resist the thing, but

trust what you were saying there about

trust. trust in how natural something

is. But it's acknowledging first, okay,

here is the reality of my situation.

This marriage is ending. Like there

there's a there's a a a

Zen parable or saying I heard many years

ago, which is

if you don't learn to find joy in the

snow, you will have less joy in your

life and precisely the same amount of

snow.

reality is reality. Like I I broke my

favorite teacup. I can be happy about

that. I can be angry about that. I can

be sad about that. Either way, my teacup

is gone. It's gone. That's it. Like, and

so I think that the acceptance piece

first requires, okay, my life is finite.

My life is finite. My marriage

is not permanently gifted to me. Love is

not permanently gifted. It is loaned.

Whether it's the life of my my life, the

love of my dog, the love of my romantic

partner, the love of my children, it is

on loan to me. It is not permanently

gifted. So that's just acknowledgment

first. then it's not pulling from that

yielding from like it's it's about

softening softening and realizing that

okay so now what do I do with this like

what do I do you know there's something

about

my my therapist once said to me we were

talking about um

we were talking about like resisting

change in life I was going through a

transition in life and and I was having

a hard time with it and he said you know

Uh he said you're very curious. He said

you

you try to like swim against the current

and it's not going to work

or you just let go and let yourself go

with the current and that's not going to

work. So you try to like I'm going to be

the ocean and that doesn't work. He's

like surf.

He's like surf. He's like surfing is

kind of the perfect balance. like you're

not trying to fight the wave. You're

trying to take it where it's going to

take you, but you're going to impose

yourself on the process a little. You're

going to use technique, patience, you're

going to use your body, and you're going

to try to just see because there's an

element in surfing, just like in

jiu-jitsu, just like in so many things

in life, of like yielding, but also

maintaining an active role, right? And I

think that is in the demise of a

relationship or the loss of someone

because of death or again any transition

any ending. First it's about

acknowledging the reality of what we had

what we were you know what our health

was whatever it might be and then saying

okay and now this has changed and I can

resist it or I can yield to it. I can

accept that this is what's happened. It

is snowing. My teacup is broken.

Whatever it is. And then

you can see what's next because again,

we don't know what's next. We don't know

what that will lead to. Like some of the

worst things, some of the moments in my

life where I went, "Oh my god, I'm never

getting through this gave way to some of

the greatest moments in my life." Like

just when the just when the caterpillar

thought its life was ending, it became a

butterfly. You know, but it had the

world had to end. Like imagine being the

bird in the egg. You know, you've been

warm and happy. Imagine being in the

womb. Like you're warm, you're happy,

everything's being fed to you. It's like

lovely. You're just buoyant and floating

around. And now if you're that bird, you

got to break through a shell and get

into this cold weird world. You don't

know how your wings work yet. Or if

you're a baby, it's like all blood and

screaming. But you got to do that to get

to the next thing. And the next thing is

beautiful. Like the bird only gets to

fly because it broke through the egg.

And it only broke through the egg

because it was brave enough to destroy

the only world it's ever known. And

that's how I look at divorce in some

ways is that divorce is like this whole

whether I'm the one ending it or my

partner is the one ending it. Like

something is ending that I never thought

was going to end and it's done. And now

what? I don't know. I don't know what.

But I have no reason to think it's going

to be horrifying. It might be incredibly

beautiful, but it's it's the road ahead

of me now. And and that to me, there's

something very beautiful about that

level of acceptance,

but the lights are off.

The lights are off on that road. It's a

it's a road with no street lamps. And

that's what the uncertainty of

Yeah, it's scary.

It's scary, right? We humans are

particularly bad with dealing with

uncertainty. I learned this when I when

I studied um Uber Labs, which is this

laboratory they had at Uber to figure

out how to build the perfect taxi app.

And they discovered that much of the

reason why we love Uber is it cuz it

kills the uncertainty that we used to

have when we called the taxi on the

phone and then we had to stand there for

seven or maybe 17 minutes

hoping that it was coming. And it's the

same analogy you might find if you know

you go to an airport and it says flight

is delayed. Now flight delayed is much

worse than flight delayed 2 hours

because I can work with that.

But flight delayed

Yeah.

with no certainty around how long I'm

going to be stood in this airport for is

like mental torture. And it's the same.

And the truth is there is something I'm

I'm not look I'm not polyiana about it

like there is something terribly

frustrating upsetting difficult about

your flight being delayed or your flight

being cancelled for example but I in

Frankfurt Germany

I had the I think it's the best meal of

my entire life at a little tiny

restaurant.

I only had that meal because I was

flying back from Poland and had a stop

in Frankfurt that was supposed to be for

one hour and because of snow they

canceled all the flights to essentially

to the United States and I was stuck in

Frankfurt for the night. Now I I

certainly had a few moments of like are

you kidding me? Like I have work, I have

this, I have that. But then something in

me went, okay, like you can be upset

about this all you want, man, but it

ain't gonna make the flights happen and

you can't walk home from Frankfurt, so

what are you gonna do? You've not been

in Frankfurt before. See what happens.

And I walked around Frankfurt and I

found this amazing little restaurant and

it was I think still to this day the

best meal I've ever had in my life. And

I've gone back to Frankfurt three times

just to eat at that restaurant. And I

the hotel that I found because I was

like, "All right, I need a room. I need

to get a room somewhere." Turned out

became one of my favorite hotels and I

stayed there several times. So, you

know, again, if you'd said to me in

advance, Jim, would it be awful if you

got stuck in Frankfurt? I would be like,

"Oh my god, that would be so bad. I have

a quarter appearance tomorrow and I have

this to do and I have that to do." My

life would have been so much poorer if I

hadn't gotten stuck in Frankfurt. I had

like four amazing trips and a bunch of

amazing meals and all these incredible

experiences because one time my flight

got cancelled because of snow. And I

tell you something, I I'm really really

glad that flight got cancelled. I wasn't

at the time. At the time it was very

frustrating. I'd call my assistant in

the middle of night and be like, "All

right, you got to cancel all my stuff.

You got to reset." But the truth is like

you just don't know. You just don't

know. You won't know. You won't know

until you're sitting ideally in a bed

and there's a hospice volunteer sitting

next to you and you're telling them all

about the amazing meal that you had in

Frankfurt that one time, not you know my

flight got delayed once.

You said earlier at the start of this

conversation, no one intends to end up

in the consultation room um with a

divorce lawyer. But I wondered when you

said that, I thought, do you know what?

I bet you've met someone in your life

that did intend to end up there. I

someone that got married because they

wanted the divorce.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I I I have met So,

I've met people because I'm in in the

high net worth and ultra high net worth

space. High net worth we define as like

10 to a few hundred million and ultra

high net worth is like 500 million and

up

in in those spaces. Yeah. There's a

there's there certainly are people that

get married

to a wealthy person for what will be

great financial benefit,

but a lot of them are not planning on

cashing the chips out necessarily. They

see it as a possibility,

but they more often are like, "Oh, no.

I'd like to ride this ride as long as

possible because the amount of money I'm

going to have access to with this person

is much greater than even if I divorce

and take some of their things. So, um

that that is certainly I I would the

overwhelming majority of people like

99.999%

of my of clients I have met in a 25-y

year career did not mean to get

divorced. They they they move towards

divorce and eventually many of them go,

"Oh yeah, this I saw early on we were

doomed." But you know, love is so

intoxicating. We fall in love so fast,

you know, and we really do like have a

tendency to in the early days like we we

tend to just be so forgiving of a

person. I mean, thank God that passes to

some degree. Could you imagine like

that? You know when you first are with

your romantic partner like they brush up

against you and it's like electric that

feeling you know because you we couldn't

what would we as a world get stuff done

if we felt like that forever about our

romantic partner if 10 years into the

relationship when your partner brushed

up next to you at the sink you went like

oh god YOU WOULDN'T GET ANYTHING DONE

like you wouldn't get anything done you

we would be a very unproductive world so

thankfully that fades and changes I I

hope it never goes completely away for

for any couple but It becomes

manageable. You start to see this person

a little more clearly. Hopefully still

with tremendous optimism.

What's the quickest marriage you've ever

represented?

Quickest marriage and divorce. Marriage

72 hours.

From marriage to divorce.

From marriage to divorce.

Yes. Marriage to marriage to anulment in

that situation. But I've I've seen

divorces that were 72 hours.

Were they drunk? What was the

Yeah, it was in one it was that they

were drunk. In one it was um I don't

know how to put it. It was almost like a

It was almost like a game of chicken

that went too far. Like they were they

had just sort of started dating and one

of them was like, "I bet you wouldn't

get my name tattooed on you." And

they're like, "Oh, yeah." And then they

went and got their name tattooed on each

other. And then they were like, "Well, I

bet we I wouldn't I like you, so I'd get

an engagement ring." And then they went

and got an engagement ring, and they

were like, "Oh, yeah. Well, I would I

you know, would you marry me?" And then

they got married. And then I think like

they probably had a great night. Like

that night was probably that might have

been some mindbending sex, but then two

days later they were like, "Wait, you

know, do you you don't actually want to

have kids?" Oh, because I do. And like,

oh, you're you know, like and they

realize they were just fundamentally

incompatible people.

Have you seen any patterns there with

compatibility then? If if a couple walks

in and they've been together for I guess

when you look back at the types of

people you've represented

um is there a certain length of

engagement and boyfriend girlfriend

phase that is typically conducive with

it working or not working?

No, I don't see that pattern. I I'm

constantly I'm very fixated on pattern

recognition. So I'm constantly thinking

I'm always looking at same religion

different religions or religious versus

non-religious or older and younger older

man younger woman younger man older

woman like what what permutation same

culture different culture same races

different races like first generation to

the US or you know both first generation

or neither

um I I don't I don't see those patterns

I really I I if I did I'd be the first

to say it you know I don't hesitate hate

to say stuff, but I I've not seen those

patterns. I I have found if I was to say

there was any any pattern, it it it

really is um

I I think substance use is probably the

main thing like that if if one or both

people are big drinkers or drug users,

that's usually a good indication that

the marriage is going to lead to divorce

because substance use issues tend to get

worse in either both people, which

causes all kinds of second order

effects, or more commonly, one person

when they have kids or when they reach a

slightly different stage in life

scales back on alcohol or drug use and

the other person has an unhealthy

relationship with the substances and it

gets further down and that's the

direction that it goes in. I had um you

said something earlier which really piqu

my interest as well which kind of

relates to this is you said love is

loaned and I I immediately thought of a

friend who who brought me to a

restaurant one day to basically tell me

that him and his um wife were being

divorced and the way they described it

was quite heartbreaking because

it seemed like they had a good

relationship. It's kind of like they got

busy with their jobs and the kid and

they forgot to water the plant.

Yeah.

It's like the only way I can describe it

because they were like good people. They

didn't really appear to argue at all.