Stormzy. Fire in the booth. The minute

he left that studio, I rang everyone and

said, "This guy is a superstar." But

then 3 years ago, I've never told anyone

this story. 3 years ago, It's your boy

Charlie SLOTH, BBC RADIO 1XTRA. ONE OF

THE BIGGEST RAPPERS on the planet. Just

when you thought AU Vodka was done for

the year,

MY FAVORITE PART OF THE SHOW. I was

raised in an environment where not many

people ever amounted to anything.

It's not our fault, it's society's

fault. [ __ ] society.

So, it was tough. We were living in a

shed. My son had just been born. I

couldn't afford nappies. And we had no

toilet. That was the sacrifice that I

had to make in order for me to become

the person I needed to become. Fire in

the booth. THE ONLY EVER DO IT RIGHT.

Branding has always been so integral for

me. The Fire in the Booth brand became a

monster within the culture. There's not

many people like me that understand

culture and understand business in the

same way I do. AU Vodka is a great

reflection of that. We outsold Grey

Goose twice over. Three times as many

bottles of Cîroc. Turnover 80 million

pounds this year. You joking. No. How

much do you think this is valued at now?

800 million. Jesus Christ. We actually

have a Bible. So, do's and don'ts.

Everyone wants to know what's in that

Bible. Ah. What kind of things are in

there? I mean, it goes from

Before this episode starts, I have a

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Thank you and enjoy this episode.

Charlie,

I'm a big believer on this podcast that

our earliest years end up defining who

we become and shaping who we are from a

character standpoint, our perspective on

the world, what we think matters, our

values, and all of those things, and

really decides which way we go off into

the world and how we go off into the

world.

When I was reading about your early

years,

that felt more evident in this case than

in the case of most guests I sit here

with. So, can you tell me in those

earliest years, when you look back as an

adult now, what were the things, what

was the context that ended up shaping

you and who you went on to become in

your life? I think for me,

um,

coming from the humble beginnings that I

did, I feel like

I was raised in an environment where not

many people

ever amounted to anything.

So, there was no one for me growing up

who I looked up to as a role model, per

se. It was more, you know,

family members for me that gave me the

confidence and inspiration to do better

in life. But I feel at the same time, me

coming from that environment

colored me and toughened me

to become

almost, I felt like growing up

invincible. Because, you know, growing

up seeing friends get killed, go to

prison.

When you survive that,

it almost makes you feel like, "Wow,

I'm indestructible." Especially at a

young age. And I've always been very

confident and had loads of self-belief.

But I feel like it set me up to

want to A, prove people wrong, because I

felt like we I was never given any

opportunities or chances to, you know,

better myself or be the person I am

today. You know, when I was 17, I didn't

even know what university was.

I had no idea what university was. When

you think about that now and put that

into perspective, that's crazy. I had no

idea what university was. When I was

younger,

I wanted to be a director. I wanted to

make movies.

And

I never had no insight into how to make

that how to make that happen. My

teachers

were like, "You'll be a plumber,

electrician,

or a chippy at best, if you do well."

So, for me, I was kind of like, "Huh?

There's got to be more to life than

that." And I was always very

inquisitive. I always wanted to know how

things worked or why things didn't work

or how how you do this and how you do

that. I was always very up on

self-education. So, I feel like those

early years of my life really shaped who

I am today. You know, how I treat other

people.

Because, obviously, my mom was the

cleaner.

So, you know, when I'm in a a corporate

building or, you know,

wherever I am in the world, I'll always

treat that person with the same respect

that I'll treat the CEO that I'm meeting

that day or that I'm doing business with

that day. Because that cleaner was my

mom. So, I have a different view and

perspective on life and on people. And I

think that's put me, you know, in a

great position in life, especially with

my people skills and how to treat

people, which I feel is a massive part

of why I am where I am.

What about your father?

My father was an electrician, very

strict, very very strict man, very

disciplined. And as a young as as as a

young kid, you know, we didn't always

see eye to eye.

Um, and I always felt like he felt like

favored my sisters and he would always

make comments to me, "You'll never be as

as successful as I am."

And as a kid, I'm like, "Whoa, like, we

talking about that?" And it's mad. This

is this is a funny story.

My dad used to always say that to me,

"You'll never be as successful as I am."

And as a as a child, I always thought

that

he meant in terms of

monetary

success. That's what I viewed as

success.

But then 3 years ago, I've never told

anyone this story. 3 years ago,

I took my family away, my whole family,

for Christmas.

And me and my dad had a drink. And I'm

like,

"Dad,

like, just look around you, Dad.

Look at everything that I've got

and everything that I've achieved.

You said I'll never be as successful as

you."

And he said to me,

"Son,

I was never talking about money.

Money's never been a thing for me. I've

never chased money in the same way you

chase money.

I was talking about you

and your sisters and your mother.

And I had to stop and I'm like, "What

are you talking about, Dad?"

And he said, "Look at the man you've

become.

Look at the women your sisters have

become.

I am successful

as a father.

You're all winners." And it's true. Me

and my sisters were all winners.

Like, my sister's got an incredible job.

My youngest sister's got a incredible

job. Incredible business. I can't help

but think you you beat him, so he moved

the goal posts.

Maybe.

Maybe.

Maybe. My dad's pretty good at that, to

be fair.

But

it made me think. It made me stop

because I've always to be fair, I've

always used that as motivation. Without

even knowing it. And and until that

point, I never really assessed the

situation in a way that I should have.

Because I'd always used that to drive me

on to be like,

"Come on, Dad. Like, I'm light years

ahead." Without having that

conversation, having that conversation

with myself in my head.

Until I had that conversation, I didn't

really sit down and

read deep why I was thinking like that.

And I think it almost

there was a weight that lifted from my

shoulders once I had that conversation.

I think likewise for my dad, you know.

Um, like I think it it like it changed

the dynamics of our relationship

somewhat.

But when I do look back at the things

that he would say and the things that he

would do, he was like a coach. Like, the

ultimate coach.

You know, like he he would inspire and

motivate me without pampering me.

Without mak- making me soft. He would

say things that he knew was harsh.

Or he would discipline me in ways that

he he knew were harsh. And he probably

felt bad at time. But he had a plan for

how he wanted me to turn out.

And, you know,

look at me now.

And he played a big part of that.

What about money? When people come from

backgrounds, I mean, you grew up on a

council estate, right?

Yeah. When people come from those

backgrounds and money is a center point

of like the relationships in the

household, it's the the cause of the

arguments, it's everything, right? It's

always there in the conversation.

When we become adults, we can sometimes

have like an unhealthy pursuit or

relationship with money. It can control

our decision-making a little bit too

much. So, as it relates to your

relationship with money at that point,

growing up, and how that kind of

orientated you as you became a young

man, what was your relationship with

money?

for me, money was a necessity.

If we didn't have money,

or if I didn't make money, additional

money for my family home, we never had

gas. We never had electric. We never had

food. And growing up for me,

I was like, "This can't happen. I need

to change this. I need to make effort

myself, not rely on my parents or my

sisters, to get out of my way and change

this." And from a young age, I was

I was always about, you know, from when

I was 12 to where up until I was 17, I

was always about making money.

And that for me was the drive. How do I

make money? I need to make more money.

You know, it started with me selling

sandwiches. Because

I couldn't afford lunch dinners. I

weren't getting free dinners at the

time.

Um, so my mom used to make me a packed

lunch.

And I remember going to school selling

the sandwiches, selling the crisps,

selling the drink,

making a fiver.

And I was like, wait a minute.

I can just replicate this. So then I

started going and buying a loaf of

bread,

salami, some salad cream, some lettuce,

and then I started making 10 sandwiches,

selling all the sandwiches.

And then throughout a 2-year period, it

it extended to me buying cigarettes,

buying 20 cigarettes and selling the

cigarettes for a pound each.

Sometimes 5 pound, depending on how

desperate the person who who was who was

trying to buy the cigarettes from me.

And I'd always

save the money

that I'd make and reinvest it to make

more money. And then by the time I was

I'd say 21,

my

idea of chasing money had changed

somewhat.

It

it became very apparent for me that I

weren't happy

chasing money.

I weren't about chasing the money. I

still understood the value of money and

knew how important it was for me to make

money, but I made a decision around 2021

that I was going to focus on something

that I loved

and that I was very passionate about and

allow the financial rewards to follow

that. Rather than doing it the other way

around, chasing

the money by doing things that I'm not

so passionate about, I don't really care

about, and I can't see it ever making me

happy.

Before that point, I was reading about

your your running with the law. Yeah.

And it's pretty pretty severe. Yeah. I

mean, where I grew up, you know,

like I said, it was tough.

And I made a lot of bad decisions as a

kid. I was watching Taboo Talks James.

Yeah. A lot of that was bravado. And

that show, a lot of that was bravado. At

a time where I felt like I had to

portray a certain image to be accepted

in a community that I felt like that was

the cool thing

to do and the cool way to act. A lot of

that was bravado. Was there any truth to

any of that?

I mean, there was there was some

elements of truth to some of the things

that I got caught up in as a kid.

Um that, you know,

I regret and I live with that regret

every day of my life.

But

again, you know, I was a product of my

environment and

I'm lucky enough that I was able to

escape that environment to become the

man I am today. And going back to what I

was saying before, all of these

incidents have shaped me to become the

person I am today. So, of course, like I

regret a lot of the things that I got

caught up in as a child. And there I was

a child. I wasn't a man at any point.

When you look back at that kid in that

documentary Taboo Talks James, I'm

embarrassed. Really? I Yeah, I get I

cringe. I can't watch it. I cringe. But

at the same time,

there's a certain

there's a certain amount of warmth that

I feel just watching how much I've

progressed and grown as a man.

And to look back at that now

for me, it's just like, wow.

Wow. But at the same time, I feel like,

you know, the amount of messages that I

get every day about

how inspiring that is to people that are

living in certain circumstances very

familiar to those that I was living in

back then. And I feel like it shows

a generation for me that right now seems

very lost,

very scared,

very confused

that it's possible. That if you believe

in yourself and you apply yourself and

you put everything that's expected of

you to the side

and just

do what feels right for you,

anything's possible. And I'm living

proof of that. Like I'm here today, you

know,

one of the most successful hip-hop DJs

in Europe.

I own multiple brands

and I'm still doing what I love

when I was told

that that wasn't possible.

When I watch those videos, outside of

the bravado, um which you you described

there, what I did see was a young man

that was incredibly hungry. Yeah. It was

so as you say, it's someone that was

trying to change their life. In fact, I

I went to to a prison the other day,

spent like 5 or 6 hours in the prison

talking to the inmates, and I saw the

same kind of like

ambitious kind of

desperation to get out of that situation

and to turn things around. And that's

what I saw in that young man was outside

of all that stuff, there was a man there

that really really wanted to be

successful and really wanted to get on.

And it's so funny cuz you say like it

was you didn't have the ideas. Nobody

had given you the ideas. Your

environment hadn't given you the ideas.

You didn't even know what university

was.

I had no idea. At that point, I had no

idea. And when you think about that,

that's bizarre.

How how does a 17-year-old young man not

know what university is? And that's

because nobody had told me. And none of

my friends were going to university.

I didn't know one person that had gone

to university at that age. Goes to show

how much information is a privilege. Oh,

of course. Information is everything.

And of course, at that at that time,

there was no internet. So for me to

self-educate

in the way I do now, it wasn't possible

back then. But yeah, you're right. My

hunger and passion was there and I feel

like that's what set me apart. You know,

there's times when

I've sat there and I'm always my my own

worst critic. I'll always review myself

and I'll sit there and

I I wouldn't say I meditate, but I like

to reflect. I like to look within to

find out what I'm doing right,

what I'm not doing so well,

and just where I'm at in life in terms

of perspective. Mhm.

And there was a time maybe 3 years ago

when I was sat there

and I'm questioning

myself almost. I'm like,

you know,

what is it

that's made me become the person I am?

Like why have I been so successful? Is

it luck?

Have I just been lucky? And I'm asking

myself these questions.

And then, you know, I'm I'm thinking

about my old friendship groups and where

a lot of those are in terms of life and

some of my new friendship groups.

And after reflecting for several hours

and sitting there and questioning

myself,

the one thing that was very clear that

separated me from everyone

that I'd met throughout life and had

been part of my journey

was my self-belief.

Like I've always believed that

impossible is nothing.

I can do it.

As long as I've had that mindset about

things, I've been able to accomplish it.

And

part of that same,

you know, analysis of myself

was going back to the imagery that I'd

put up around in my studio and how I

went about achieving those certain goals

and targets that I set myself.

And

it was almost

like I had achieved those things

subconsciously

for me. Like I had set myself a target

and they were they were all around my

room.

But I wouldn't sit there every day

thinking

I want an orange Porsche. Porsche. I

want a massive

um detached house with land. I didn't

sit there and think every day about

those things, but they were they were

around me. Mhm. And they were part of my

environment. And in the same way, when I

was younger,

my environment had a huge influence on

who I was and how I behaved.

Once I stepped out of that and created

my own environment, my own

universe, if you like, which I was

surrounded by all of these things that I

wanted to achieve,

I started achieving them

subconsciously, unknowingly,

without having a real

formula to how I'd achieve them. Mhm. So

then I was sitting there thinking, wait

a minute. So how how did I actually do

that?

And then it always comes back

to the self-belief.

Because the moment I believe in

something, if I can visua- visualize

what I'm trying to achieve, I know it's

possible.

The analogy that I've come to like

really believe in based on having these

conversations with people who have all

it to some degree subconsciously Cuz

you're saying there, I didn't

consciously sit there every day and

think about it and make a plan. It was

just in my subconscious. So so my I

drove towards it. It's this this analogy

of the car, right? The sat nav and and

the and the pedal. You got to set the

sat nav and you've got to push the

pedal. If you do one of them, if you

just push the pedal, you're going to get

lost.

That's a great analogy.

set the sat nav but don't push the

pedal, you're going to be in your garage

all day.

I love that. You know what I mean? And

that and you did both, clearly. You had

the drive to push the pedal, but you

also knew the direction of travel you

wanted to go in. In those early years,

though,

I was watching a talk you did. Uh I

think it was on the BBC's channel to a

group of what looked like students about

living in a shed. Yeah. And then your

manager giving you some advice. Yeah.

Take me back to that period of your

life. Was that the the the toughest

moment of your

your journey?

I'd I'd say so.

It was a period of my life where I just

um

become a father.

And

my

partner

was

from a very different world to me.

Uh family were,

you know, you could say middle class.

And

I was in a transitioning period in my

life where I'd got to that point where I

was like, I'm going to do something that

I love

and something that I'm passionate about.

And

if I'm as good as I believe I am,

the success will follow. And for me, it

was the success that I was chasing

rather than the money at that time. I

just wanted to be the best. I just

wanted to win.

I knew that if I won, the money would

come. And I'm not going to sit here and

say it was never about the money,

because of course, it's always about the

money. Anyone who says that, you should

never trust them.

But for me,

it wasn't primary. It wasn't

it wasn't what was

driving me forward. It was the win that

was driving me forward, and I knew the

money would follow.

And I couldn't wait for the money to

follow, but I knew it would, as long as

I focused on being the best.

But at that time,

um we was living in a shed that had no

sanitation. My son had just been born.

And there were times when

I couldn't afford nappies

and milk.

Um and I was kind of doing what I could

to get by. And at that time, because I'd

self-educated on all aspects of new

media, like I really went in. Like

really, really went in.

Um I was editing.

I was editing content

um

for JumpOffTV.

And that was kind of tiding me over and,

you know,

giving me enough money to get by.

You know, like we still had to

go elsewhere to shower

and use the toilet,

which is crazy when I think about it

now. It's crazy. But, you know, like I

look back at those moments now, and that

was sacrifice for me. That was the

sacrifice that I had to make, and I had

to put my family through,

in order for me to become the person I

needed to become. How are you feeling

every day when you look over at your

your family in that shed? What what's

going on in your head?

I'm embarrassed.

I'm like scared.

Anxiety was a big thing for me.

Uh a lot of self-doubt. I'm questioning

myself, can I really do this?

Am I really the person that I think I

am?

Am I being selfish?

Should I just go and get a job?

Should I just give in and go and get a

9:00 to 5:00

and just

submit

to being

part of the 98%.

And for me,

I just couldn't. There was something

inside me that wouldn't let me. Like it

was almost like a voice in my head when

I look back, "You can do this, man.

You've got this." And I was like, "I

can't. I can't. I I almost felt a

pressure." And the moment my son was

born,

that pressure intensified like something

I've never felt before, like something I

didn't even know was possible.

The the drive and the ambition, I was

like, "I It's not about letting me down

or my parents down.

I can't let my son down. And there's no

way in a million years that I'm going to

let this young man down."

No way. And at that point, I was working

18, sometimes 20 hours a day, every day,

7 days a week. I wasn't even spending

time

with my family, because I was just so

engrossed, so obsessed with becoming the

best and creating something that moved

the needle. And in my head, I always

knew

I'd never move the needle

unless I was willing

to move the needle.

And that's what it was for me.

So I'd wake up every day 5:00 a.m. And

in my head, I've got a 4-hour head start

before anyone's even started work. I'm 4

hours up on you, where I've got no

distractions, no emails, no phone calls,

no texts. 4 hours just focusing, doing

what I needed to do. And then I had the

rest of the day

for everyone to play catch up. And

that's what I was doing in my head. And

there were times over a 2-year period

this was. There were times when,

you know,

people are sitting down and saying,

"This ain't ever going to happen, Solly.

It's just not going to happen.

Like you need to be a realist."

And their doubt almost made me doubt

myself even more.

But

I knew that if I kept putting in the

effort

and the work that I was putting in at

that period in my life, something was

going to give. And it did. Now this is,

you know, when YouTube first started,

very fresh. People were doing the vlogs.

And

my manager at the time was saying, "Go

and do a vlog. Let everyone see your

personality. People will fall in love

with you." And I'm like, "No way. Like

that is so corny. Everyone's doing it."

Everyone's doing it. And from a young

age, my thing was always be

be disruptive. Be as noisy and as loud

and as different as you can possibly be.

And I still, to this very day, apply

that to everything that I'm doing.

So I was like, "No, no. I I can't do a

vlog. Everyone's doing it. I'm just

going to be like everyone else. I need

to do something different."

So

we came up with um Being Charlie Sloth,

where at the time I played like seven,

eight different characters in a show,

all wore different outfits, different

uniforms, with their own personality. Um

so you had the cameraman, the editor,

the manager, the street team, the

artist, uh the web designer. And they

each played on stereotypes of what I

felt those person those people were.

And um

I made the first episode, and it I spent

ages on it. So long, cuz I wrote it

myself, I filmed it myself, I edited

myself.

And we put it out on YouTube.

And it done a few thousand views.

I was

I remember the feeling. I can still I

can almost feel

the feeling of disappointment that I

felt

24 hours after that going live on

YouTube, thinking like, "Wow, I just

spent all that time making this

The first episode was like 40 minutes

long.

And

it's genius. I'm thinking it's No one's

ever done anything like this.

And nobody's watching it." And I

thought,

"You know what? This may be the sign

that I needed

to actually

call it a day."

I was so disheartened.

And

the next thing you know,

we get a message

from WorldStarHipHop.com

saying that

they wanted us to take it on

exclusively. And that was

a huge, huge defining moment

in my life

and in my career.

Because not only did it give me the

break that I needed within the industry,

but it also

gave me this new lease of life in terms

of self-belief, and made me

understand that

the work and self-belief that I'd had in

myself wasn't a waste of time.

And that there are people paying

attention around the world. Even when

you think people ain't looking,

they are.

And for me, I feel like

that really changed my outlook on life

and on myself. And from there, there was

no looking back. Like beast mode was

fully activated. And there was nothing

and no one that was going to stop me.

You know what's really interesting is

when we think about self-belief, the

self-belief you had, we almost assume

that it can't exist in the same place as

doubt.

But it completely rang true for me that

I I was such a self-believing person. I

think the most self-believing person I'd

met when I was, you know, the early

stages of my career. But at the same

time, when I look at my diary, cuz I you

know, we all recount these stories in

hindsight to say I had so much

self-belief, I was that I knew exactly

where I was going, bum bum bum, and it

happened. Whereas when I look at my

diary, I could see the self- self-doubt.

Yeah. And it was it come from other

people that like, maybe they're right.

That that voice of like, maybe they're

right.

You know, a lot of people that are

successful I speak to,

I think it's hard for a lot of people to

admit that they doubted themselves at

some point on their journey.

I still doubt myself today.

There's still times when, you know, even

though I've achieved some incredible

things throughout my career,

I I'm I still doubt myself. But that's

the pessimist in me that gives me

balance. I feel like if I never had

that, I feel like that self-belief could

almost turn into arrogance.

And that's something that I've never

wanted to happen. So I feel like when I

chat to people, especially people that

are grounded, it feels like that's a a

safety mechanism that we install in

ourselves and program in our minds to

keep ourselves grounded and humble.

Because anytime I spoke to people that

don't really have that or don't really

want to admit self-doubt,

they're the ones that are bordering

on the line of arrogance.

Those people typically tend to come from

a slightly different background to yours

as well. I think in you it could

because, you know, if you grew up in a

family where everyone was a billionaire,

Yeah. you saying that you want to do

this or this, people would be like,

"Easy, Charlie."

I'll connect you to the guy now. But

growing up in that background, you're

constantly when nobody's doing what you

want to do, you're confronted with with

that negative pessimism, because that's

what people feel about themselves around

you. Why could you do that? How can you

become that person? You know, I've never

They don't live around here. When I came

up, Jamal for me was the the only was

the black guy that had made become

successful in business. I stalked that

kid on Skype. I told him years later

when we became friends, like, "You were

the bridge."

And when kids come from your background,

they don't have that bridge, I I think

it's

it's a shame.

It's a massive shame, and you still see

it today. I mean, you know, but that's

again that's that's

being from that environment.

You know,

no one wants

the working class to be inspired.

No one wants the working class to

believe that they don't they don't have

to be working class. This is a choice.

You know, like it's it's

it from a young age

is programmed in us from our parents.

You know, that this is what you have to

do

to have a good life. You have to go to

school. Then you go to college. If

you're lucky,

you can go to university.

Then you get a job. Then you find a

partner. Then you get a mortgage. Then

you're trapped, and then that's it.

The moment you enter that

agreement with the bank

is the moment

you're trapped, in my opinion. There's

no you you can't really escape at that

point, because you have commitments.

You now have to go to work

to pay that mortgage every month.

And it's at that point where you become

a part of the system.

And

the sad thing is most of the working

class youth of today don't know any

better. And that's why you find a lot of

the kids from that environment looking

up to

the drug dealers,

the fraud guys, because they're the only

guys that have ever seen financial

success in those communities. So,

they're not going to look up to a doctor

or a lawyer or a dentist, because there

are none.

The moment that

shifts

is the moment the mentality of our kids

of this generation will change. And I

think it's changed slightly now, because

obviously the internet has given

everyone a much broader vision in terms

of what's possible. But there's still a

lot of the youth that don't really use

the internet in that way. And when you

think about that, that's insane.

There's still a lot of families that

haven't got

a computer or a tablet at home. And this

is a real thing, you know, cuz I I spend

a lot of time doing things and with the

youth and trying to give back and trying

to inspire and encourage the next

generation.

And some of the conversations that I

have, I'm just like, "Woah."

I don't

Go and buy this kid an iPad. I'm saying,

"Go and get him an iPad right now."

It's it's it's mind-blowing. It's

mind-blowing. On that point of, you

know, seeds,

planted seeds, I think your story is the

most perfect examples of how seeds you

plant can end up changing your life, not

just for you, but all the seeds that

were planted on your platform that

changed lives.

Yeah. And we like I sit here so often

with people who tell you know who gold

medal Olympians or they've got a hundred

billion dollar company, whatever it is,

and you see at some point they planted

some seed without really knowing what

the consequence would be, and it maybe

three years later, maybe five minutes

later, that seed unexpectedly changes

their life. That day when you missed out

making Being Charlie Sloth and it went

on WorldStarHipHop. For anybody that

doesn't know WorldStarHipHop, because

maybe you're so young or you just you've

not been watching WorldStar was the

cultural hip-hop website of my whole

childhood.

Yeah, the biggest in the world. Yeah, it

was like YouTube for it was like YouTube

for

was like YouTube for the the rap market.

And they picked the videos that went on

there, so you couldn't just upload it

yourself. Um it was the biggest,

millions and millions of views um you

were getting a week on that on that

platform when you when you eventually

when they found you. But that idea of

planting seeds, you must have seen that

over and over again Oh, for sure.

For sure. For sure. I mean, like, you

know,

initially,

you know, that was a massive crossroad

in my career. Do I go back into what my

passion was, you know, music,

producing, DJing,

or do I stay on this road

of Being Charlie Sloth, which is

ultimately

acting stroke comedy, if you like. Um

and it was because I could see the

potential

in the platform at BBC Radio 1Xtra

that I made that decision. And it wasn't

so much about me. And I when I look back

at that now, I was very selfless,

because I could have taken a big check

at the time.

But this goes back to again what I was

saying, it weren't about the money. I

could have taken that check, and I don't

know where I'd be now.

But being the man that was with money,

I've always been very good with money. I

would have

I would have made that money into more

money.

But I was like, it's not about that.

This is about the next 10 years, and

what can I do

not only for me, but for the community.

Did the BBC see the WorldStar videos?

How did that How did

They saw the WorldStar, so it was

actually DJ Semtex. Oh, okay. Um great

friend of mine. Uh great one of my

peers, someone who I've always looked up

to and respected.

Um he was going on tour with Dizzee

Rascal on world tour, and needed someone

to cover his show.

So, he got me and Wretch 32

to come and cover the show. So, me and

Wretch covered, I believe it was five or

six shows.

And then, you know, the response was

insane that they offered me and Wretch

32 our own show.

So, they offered a show to me and Wretch

32. And me and Wretch spoke about it,

and we was like,

"It's a no-brainer, let's do it."

So, we agreed terms with the BBC.

And the night before

they was going to announce it,

Wretch called me at early hours in the

morning.

He's like, "Charlie, I've been thinking

about this non-stop." I'm like, "What's

that?"

He's like, "I'm not going to do the

radio show, bro." I'm like, "What?"

He's like, "Bro, I hope this don't mess

things up for you,

but I really believe that I can crack

this music thing."

So, I was like, "Bro, I wish you all the

best. Look, man, I'm just going to go

and do the LA thing, the Being Charlie

Sloth thing.

Bro,

kill the music." So, he's like, "Ah,

thanks, bro. Means a lot."

So, the next day BBC rang me, they was

like, "Ah, you know, Wretch don't want

to do it. Probably won't work with just

you on your own."

So, I was like, "Cool." Like for me it

was no skin off my back. I'm like, "I'm

doing this Being Charlie Sloth stuff.

I'm getting millions of views. All the

American rappers know me. They all want

to do stuff. I'm kind of like cool. The

BBC is cool."

Even at the time, in my head I was like,

"I can do so much here. I can I can

really move the needle

like no one has." You'd already started

dreaming.

started putting things in place in my

head. I'm planning.

So, I was like, "It's cool, don't

worry."

And then a few days later, uh Rebecca

Frank rang me back. She's like, "Listen,

um I've had a chat with her with her

management, and I've convinced them that

you can do it. Do you Do you still want

to do it?"

And then in my mind I'm like,

"Yeah, I do."

So bad. But obviously my team at the

time were all set on

going stateside. I just got my O1 visa,

and you know, ready to go. And um

I said, "Yeah, you know what, let's do

it." But I didn't tell my team.

And it went into the announce when I

that they were like,

"How you going to do this? It's

impossible." And I was like, "Well, uh

I'm actually going to do the radio

thing, and I'm not going to do the Being

Charlie Sloth thing."

And obviously they're like, "You are

insane. Have you lost your marbles?" At

the time

when I first joined the BBC,

I was getting

140

pound, I believe, a show.

So, I was only earning 140 pound

a week

working for the BBC. So, when you think

about that, even when I think about that

now,

you know, there's this huge perception

and illusion

that DJs earn

ridiculous amounts of money. Now, they

do. I mean, let's be fair, you know,

I've done all right, and there's other

DJs that

trump me.

Um

but at the time, you know, I'll go and

accept in a contract,

a year contract at a time for 140 pound

a week,

you know,

to go and be on the BBC rather than

a six-figure deal

in LA.

I think most people, especially, you

know, managers in general are very

straight thinking. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. And it's all about the

money. It's very straight thinking.

It's it's better you do that because

it's there's more money involved. But

for me I'm looking at about I'm looking

at the big picture.

And I knew what I was capable of

bringing to the table. And in my mind,

I'm sat there and I'm thinking, before I

even started, I'm looking and I'm like,

right, what components

of a radio show live within a radio show

and make people come to the radio show

to listen, but also have a life outside

of the radio show, and continue living,

and continue bringing

new listeners to the show while growing

outside.

And I was like, freestyles.

So, I was like, well, I'm just going to

brand

ultimately what

has been happening within the culture

for years,

but make it a brand.

But it has to be a brand that stands and

lives within the within the community,

which solves a problem,

which gives artists from the UK from a

street level a platform to showcase

their talent,

but also means something to the culture,

something to look up to, something to

inspire them, something to work towards

if you're an artist.

And that's where Fire in the Booth came

from. And

you know, I feel like, you know,

understanding the power of branding

is what put that in a position that it

still is today. Of course,

it's not the brand that has carried Fire

in the Booth, it's the talent.

The Fire in the Booth brand is just a

conduit, but a conduit that's trusted.

A conduit that you know is not going to

peddle you artists because the brand's

being paid to.

A

a product that is

positioned within the community to serve

the community. I think the integrity of

Fire in the Booth

can never be questioned. You know, I

still I see people now, "Ah, Fire in the

Booth is done. It's finished." And I

read those comments and I laugh to

myself because

I've been through that Fire in the Booth

is done, Fire in the Booth is finished

three or four times. Understanding the

cycles and understanding what's

happening and repositioning the brand so

it never dies.

And the Fire in the Booth brand will be

around as long as I'm here or there's

someone else who cares as much as me

about the culture.

So, you know, there was times when a new

freestyle platform would come up and be

doing more traffic, more views.

Fire in the Booth is done. A year later

a moment that we've been planning

for 18 months will happen. Fire in the

Booth is the best that no one else can

get these guys on Fire in the Booth.

Like Drake. Like Drake. And it's been

you know Multiple. Juice WRLD, Lil Baby.

You know, there's been so many moments

where we've had moments with artists

that were special moments. Pop Smoke.

That you don't really get anywhere else

that are just very unique and raw.

Unpolished. So, yeah, I feel like that

the Fire in the Booth brand became like

a monster within the culture. And you

know, we I've never ever ever taken a

penny off any artist to perform on

there. I've never taken a check from a

label

to make sure that artist is positioned

right or never. And because for me

that's what makes Fire in the Booth so

special.

When it comes to building a brand that

has integrity Yeah.

what matters? You know, this is a brand

and I think you know, a lot

It has integrity. But I think because

you have integrity I think you because

you have integrity, you install your

morals into the brand and this brand is

a reflection of you. I feel like pretty

much

everything you do speaks about you as a

person because

I feel like I'm the same. I feel like if

it challenged my morals

I wouldn't want to do it because I'd be

like, "Well, that's that's not a real

reflection of me. Why am I going to

invest my time or my money my energy

into something that doesn't represent

me?" And I feel like my team

you know, I have an amazing team do an

incredible job of managing the

expectations of all of the brands that

I'm involved with and I don't even have

to say it no more.

If I if I feel like something's wrong or

it's not going to work, it doesn't look

right for the brand, they know before

it's even come to me

because they know what my morals are.

They know what I stand for, what I don't

stand for, what I feel is right. So,

it's got to the point where I don't even

have to have those conversations because

I have such a great team who have those

conversations for me and they protect

the brand. I feel like if something goes

wrong with one of the brands, it's a

reflection on me.

And something that I've always

believed is one of my biggest assets

is my reputation.

I feel like you may not like me.

You may hate me. You might find me

annoying.

But one thing you can't challenge is my

reputation. I've never done anyone dirty

ever. I've never backstabbed anyone.

I've never said I'm going to do

something and not done it.

And my brands have to hold up that same

ethos.

In order for your team to know

what decisions you'd make before you

know, it even comes to you as it relates

to the branding, the positioning of it

and all those things, that must first

start with you being really really

clear. And what I've got from all of

that is because you're so clear in your

head and non-negotiable about what this

brand is, you've been able to kind of

like install that in all of the people

around you. So, now they are like

disciples of the values. For sure. Well,

we have we actually have a Bible. Oh,

really? We actually have a Fire in the

Booth Bible, a handbook to do's and

don'ts. And especially now because you

know, the vision of Fire in the Booth

has gone from being uh

a feature on a radio show to being a

global brand. You know, obviously now

we're with Apple.

You know, one of the biggest companies

in the world who I believe share the

same ethos as we do in terms of vision,

in terms of content consumption.

And

I feel like now the brand really is

going global. Everyone wants to know

what's in that Bible. Uh

What kind of things are in there?

I mean it's you know, it goes from

camera setup to

edits colors to use

um

right through to

um how artists are treated once they

once they arrive, communication with

teams.

Um One of the things I found really

interesting is I read that you deleted

potentially hundreds of episodes of Fire

in the Booth that just didn't cut it.

Yeah. Which which I think a lot of

people would be surprised by because you

know, a rapper, an artist comes down,

they perform, they might think it's gone

off, they might think it that you know,

they killed it. And then you're sat

there thinking, "This doesn't meet the

standard."

Yeah, I feel like you know, I feel

there's times when I've not released a

Fire in the Booth and an artist later on

has gone on to thank me. Because

you know

it's a big moment in an artist's career

and I feel like if it doesn't do you

justice, it's not about me.

It's not about why I think this is going

to do well for the Fire in the Booth

brand.

Like anytime I have a conversation with

an artist and they say to me, "Do you

think it's good?" I can't sit there and

lie to the artist's face and say, "Yes,

it's okay." I'm going to be like, "You

could do better."

If you want to come back and go again,

we can. If not, let's just park it off

for now and come back to it at a later

date. And there's been so many that have

not gone out, but that's because I felt

it's not a good reflection on them, not

on the brand because no one's going to

you know, attack the brand as much as

they would the artist. There's one of

the biggest artists in the world right

now, Steven. One of the biggest

globally.

Right? Who come in to do a Fire in the

Booth. And I can't tell you how excited

I was for this moment. Even though it

was a few years ago, they were still a

big artist then, but they weren't as big

as they are now.

And they came in and done their Fire in

the Booth. And you know, we everyone was

excited and we just prepared for it.

And they came in and it was possibly

one of the worst Fire in the Booths I've

ever recorded.

And I could see that the artist was

quite excited

by their performance.

And you know, they were like, "Oh, wait,

when when we going to release it?" And

in my mind I'm thinking, "Is this just

me?

Is it because I expected here and they

delivered here that I'm judging this?"

And they're talking to me and their

mouths are just moving and I'm

processing all this information in my

head because I'm like, "I don't want to

lie to the artist. I don't want to be

disrespectful to the artist."

All this information is swirling in my

head and I was like

I'm going to go back and listen to the

Fire in the Booth. Uh "Give me 10

minutes." So, I went back into the

studio, replayed it.

I was like, "This is garbage.

This is garbage."

So, I chatted to the producer at the

time. I was like, "How How's best to

handle this situation? I don't want to

go out and say that this is not going to

go out, but at the same time I want to

give them the opportunity to redo it

while they're here, while they're in the

country."

And

regretfully

I didn't do that.

I didn't go out and give the artist the

opportunity to do it again.

I was like, "You know what? I'm just

going to say

that it's not going out."

And

for me that was a bad decision. I look

back at it now and it was a bad

decision.

Um

but it just weren't good enough. It

weren't good enough and there's so many

artists that have come through and not

performed, but again like I said, some

that have called me at a later date and

said, "You know what? I appreciate you

not putting that Fire in the Booth out.

Let's go again." Why'd you regret that

decision?

Because

in hindsight

I could have given them the opportunity

to record it again there and then.

But because I had no faith in the

situation

I was like, "I'm not going to waste

their time and I'm not going to waste my

team's time. I just think it's best that

we kind of keep it moving."

But now

on reflection, I should have given them

the opportunity to do it again.

You know, and comments all the time.

I've spoken about this before where

people are like, "Release it.

Release the Fire in the Booth. This

person is huge right now. We've got sign

off on it. We can release it."

But I just wouldn't. You know, like I'm

I don't I don't do things for that

reason. I'm not going to [ __ ] on the

artist now and put something out that I

thought was [ __ ] back then and put it

out now for views. It's it's counter

productive. It goes against everything

that I say and stand for. So, it would

never come out. I I would probably

wouldn't even say that person's name.

I'll tell you off camera.

I I have a similar

slightly similar story that I I recorded

an episode of The Diary of a CEO with

the person who's currently if there's

three biggest YouTubers in the world,

he's he's definitely one of them. Oh,

wow.

And I just never put it out cuz it just

the conversation is so bad. Are you

serious?

It's so bad. It just doesn't go anywhere

and it like I blame myself in part for

like not being able to get anything from

them. Um and in the same situation, they

were they weren't as big then as they

are now. Now they're one of the biggest.

And I but I look reflect on the

conversation and I I said like how do I

stop that happening in the future?

Cuz this you know, I play a role in the

content whereas in Fire in the Booth you

play a role but it's you creating a

platform for them to show them their

talent. Whereas I feel like

to lead it. Yeah, I feel like I could

have done better a better job.

I was so inspired watching your

conversation with Adam where you say

about the

that board meeting with with the BBC at

the start where you you lay out to them

that you

what you're going to do. Yeah. As a as a

DJ.

Did anybody believe you? What did you

say?

No, definitely not. They didn't believe

I think

I feel like I got laughed out of the

room at the time. So, it was two the two

bosses

at the time

and I'd gone in to do my paperwork and

you know, there was like so you know,

what are your aspirations? What are you

trying to achieve here? Why are you at

the BBC? I said, well, within a month

I'll create the biggest online

freestyle platform that'll do millions

of views. Like huh, great. Yeah.

It's not radio. That's not radio,

Charles. He's like you know, that's

that's not radio. That's YouTube. I'm

like all right, mate.

And then I said secondly, I'll replace

Westwood. I'll take all of Westwood's

shows within 5 years.

And one of the guys actually laughed in

my face.

I said excuse me, why are you laughing?

He said oh, do you know how many times

I've heard that?

And I said, well, you've never heard it

from me.

And he's like good luck good luck with

that chap. Good luck. So, I was like

okay.

So, it actually took me 3 years

of being at the BBC to replace Westwood

on all of his shows. So, that was six

radio shows a week.

Um

and I said it would take me five.

So, I remember this is a great story. I

actually saw the guy a few weeks back.

And we we laughed over it.

You know, I I I got the recall to say

where there's going to be an all going

out today announcing all staff that

you're replacing Westwood on all shows

as of set date.

Uh here we go now at midday today.

So, I was like perfect.

So, I left my house nice and early.

Went into uh the BBC building.

And went around to this guy's desk

at

it must have been 11:55.

Sat on the edge of his desk and just

waited

for that inbox to light up with an all

staff from the boss.

12:00 it drops in.

He opens it. Looks at me.

Says fair play.

You did it.

Fair play. What can I say?

And I was like thank you.

I said I'll do it in five I did it in

three.

It reminds me of your the what your dad

was saying to you when you were a kid as

well.

For sure. And those things, you know,

until

until you unwrap it and unravel it you

don't really understand what impact it's

had on your life. I feel like those

small moments

that drive you on and and give you that

fuel to keep pushing through.

They're sat at the back of your mind.

And then once you've achieved that goal

or

you know something's happened around

that conversation when you can really

dissect it and really get into the the

nitty-gritty of the words that were

presented to you that have inspired and

motivated you to become better. You're

like wow, okay. It's it's bizarre. But

yeah, it was a big moment for me that.

The interpretation going on there is the

key thing, right? Cuz your dad's words,

that guy's words, any words of

self-doubt can be interpreted in many

ways depending on the mind that's

interpreting them. So, with your dad's

comments, that could have made someone

go [ __ ] I'm not good enough. I'll just

I'll just Yeah, I'm going to I'm going

to crash and chill.

I'm going to crash and chill. Whereas

you you almost interpret it as like you

still probably interpret it as like I'm

not good enough but

I'm going to prove to you that I am.

Yeah. And I think that's such an

interesting thing cuz from this podcast

I used to think people that were driven

or successful were just these people

that were like super motivated and

whatever else.

What I've come to learn the more

episodes we've done is that nearly all

of them start with this complex that

they're fighting against which is you're

not good enough. Dude, you know what?

For a long time

I lived with that. And especially when I

started stepping into board meetings and

meeting corporate folk I felt like I was

dismissed

because of how I spoke, how I dressed.

But

for me

I always thought, you know what?

You're no better than me because of your

background or where you are in life.

So, why would you judge me for being who

I am even though I I've worked hard

enough to sit at the same table as you.

And that would eat me up for a long

time.

And I'd never speak about it. It was you

know, it was

I I I guess a class complex

if anything.

I I felt like a lot of people judged me

um on the way I spoke and the way I

dressed without actually getting to know

me or or picking my brain.

And I to be totally honest I

I think it wasn't until

maybe

5 years ago where I got past that.

Where I was like you know what? I

deserve to be at this table. And you

should be humbled and grateful that I'm

sat at this table willing to give you

some of the information that I have. Cuz

if you had the information that I have I

wouldn't be sat at this table.

You wouldn't need me to be sat at this

table. And you probably wouldn't want me

to be sat at this table.

And that's how I think. I think

I understand the value that I bring to

every situation that I'm in now. And

that self-doubt has been totally

removed. Still self-doubt in my life but

in terms of who I am and what I bring to

the table and what I'm capable of

achieving

I feel like I'm in a very unique lane in

life. There's not many people like me

that understand culture

and understand business in the same way

I do. It's so funny cuz being Charlie

Sloth in more ways than one. Not just

the the documentary you started but

throughout your career and being

your authentic self in in situations

where you you might not have fit the

status quo is so clearly to me one of

the key reasons why you're successful.

Like being yourself. Yeah. Right? So,

it's it's interesting to hear that

someone who from the outside everyone go

well, we Charlie Sloth is Charlie Sloth

because he's Charlie Sloth. Yeah. Right?

Would would also go no, I had those

moments walking into rooms where I

thought

[ __ ] I don't belong or are they judging

me or you know Yeah, for sure. If I felt

inferior. I felt like

should I really be at this table?

Should I be speaking different, dressing

different?

there was times there was times in my

life when I'd go into a meeting

and my phone voice would pop out.

And I'd leave the meeting and I'd be so

mad at myself. I'm like what are you

doing? Yeah. What are you doing? Why did

you do that? Because you felt like you

had to speak a certain way around a

certain type of person. No way. Like and

I feel like yeah, I feel like a lot of

people

appreciate and respect me for being

unapologetically me. You've had all

these guys come on your your your

platforms over the years and with Fire

in the Booth you've really like without

a shadow of a doubt made people's

careers. And I've always wondered

what is it that makes one of them

actually go go the full distance and

become

a star? Cuz there's not many seats at

that top table especially in the UK. So,

from your perspective which is a unique

perspective, what is it that's

separating them? I think I think it is a

concoction of things. I think the first

thing of course is always talent.

You've got to have talent or some degree

of talent. Even though I'm a I'm a

strong believer in hard work always

beats talent. But talent especially

within music is always one of the key

ingredients. Vision

is the second thing.

And

I said the first thing is work ethic.

How much you're willing to work.

How hard you're willing to go.

And then

the fourth and I think someone who

encapsulates this is Stormzy

is

personality, morals and

a sense of vulnerability.

I think. I think when you look at all of

the most successful artists

for me

they allow themselves to become

vulnerable.

They allow themselves to be judged. They

allow themselves to talk about things

that

a rapper

wouldn't necessarily

feel comfortable talking about.

I feel like

Stormzy

he's got the talent. He's got incredible

talent.

You know, in terms of vision and his

work rate unmatched. I I remember doing

sessions with Stormzy

maybe eight eight nine years ago.

Recording sessions in the studio.

And

I'd called him and said uh and this is

before like he was massive. I I'd called

him and said dude, I want to get you on

a project I'm working on. Can you come

to the studio? He's like what time do

you need me there?

Um I said if you get there before 4:00

p.m. it'd be amazing. Now, I didn't need

him there till 6:00. But with me

spending as much time as I have with

rappers I'd always say 2 hours earlier.

So, uh

it was 5:00 to 4:00 he turned up. I'm

like

you're early. He's like only 5 minutes.

I'm like in my head I'm like it was 2

hours and 5 minutes but

so, he comes in the studio he's like

what do you need me to do?

I was like uh do a verse on this song,

do a verse on this song, do a chorus on

this song.

Normally an artist would be in there

maybe

4 5 hours. He was in there for like 40

minutes.

Done the three verses, done the hook and

was like is there anything else you want

me to do? I'm like whoa

nah, man. With that attitude? With that

attitude.

And the minute he left that studio I

rang everyone and said this guy is a

superstar.

He is going to be a juggernaut.

Because his mindset was just he was so

focused. He weren't in there

gossiping, drinking, smoking. He was

like, "I'm here to do a job.

I'm going to do the job to the best of

my ability

and then I'm going to move on

to do my next job."

And to see that

in such a young man,

I was like, "Wow, this guy's gone." And

I remember after that

there was a few moments that happened

and he was just out of here.

I just knew it. There's a few artists

like that that

have been on the show or I've met

personally and I've said straight away

even to labels, friends within the

labels, I'm like,

"If you want to place a bet,

that's the guy to place a bet on."

You can just feel it. Like it's like you

either got it or you haven't. Some of

the things that

these artists have that

make them superstars are unteachable.

And they're hard to see. Yeah, very. Cuz

no one would have said that about what

from my my external perspective, when I

think about why Stormzy made it, I'm

thinking, "Oh, he did that thing in the

park with the freestyle and then he you

know worked with you and then I think

and he's a great rapper." Yeah. But

even then there's a reason why he became

a great rapper and it's it's dedication.

Dedication. So focused. No no

distractions.

Wretch was the same. Wretch is

And you know what? Like when you look at

these artists, they're the most

incredible human beings. Set aside

everything else,

they're the most incredible human

beings. Ghetts, you know, one of the

biggest rappers in this country, one of

the most incredible human beings that I

know.

And you know, if you're looking at it

from an enter- entertainment

perspective, you're like, "These guys

are

gangsters." And they're not. They're

human beings. And you know, their

personality, their morals, their

integrity is a big part of why they've

been so successful because everybody

wants to work with them. Everybody likes

them. Nobody ever wants to say no

because they're such good people.

I said I said For me, a huge

Stormzy is super talented. Incredible

artist.

But a huge part of people wanting to do

stuff with him is because he's such a

great person.

But you represent all of those things

that you've just described. The hard

work, the vision, the vulnerability, the

openness, even the body language point

you said. Yeah. Like

I could turn off the volume on a Fire in

the Booth and just watch you.

Oh, yeah, I get carried away. But that's

because I genuinely care. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And a lot of that goes back to how

many Fire in the Booth has not come out.

Yeah. If you saw my reaction in those

Fire in the Booth, Really? people are

like, "Wow, he's definitely not feeling

that."

Maybe that's why they flocked. Yeah,

maybe. May- maybe. I don't know, but You

can't really

I I can't You can't I can't just I'm a

showman.

Yeah, I DJ all over the world and I put

a show on. Mhm. But in that environment,

that is how I feel. The energy is what

makes me become the person I become in

the studio at that moment in time. They

say 80% of communications are nonverbal,

don't they? 100% and I believe that. I

mean,

yeah, you can see. Even K Koke, if you

just if I didn't speak English, I'd

still be like Yeah, it's like oh, he's

he's the passion.

The pain in his voice.

Yeah. It was a real moment.

He'd just come out of jail. He'd just

come out of jail.

Yeah, yeah. Just being shot at.

So he's like, "This is my opportunity.

I am not letting this slip." And he

didn't. You know, I mean, what a huge

moment that was for him as an artist.

First time I'd ever heard of him. Huge.

Went on to be signed by Jay-Z.

Off of the Fire in the Booth. Mad.

Insane.

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At some point, you got a call from

Apple. Yeah.

Tell me tell me about that.

I mean, Apple for me,

you know, it was a massive moment in my

life and my career. So

prior to me leaving the BBC,

I had had offers for a few years before.

People were just trying to start

conversation about what it would look

like with me leaving the BBC.

And you know, I've got so many great

memories and made so many great friends

at the BBC and it was such a huge part

of my career and my growth as Charlie

Sloth and of course the Fire in the

Booth brand. But I'd got to the point in

the building where I'd achieved every

single last thing that I'd set out to

achieve.

And every time I'd achieve a goal in

there, I'd set myself a new target.

But I'd run out of targets

in terms of where I could go and what

more I could do. And you know, at this

time I was doing an average of 200 DJ

shows

a year.

Um I was doing five radio shows a week.

I felt a little bit trapped and for me

what I quickly identified as my next

mission

was I felt

not as easy to achieve while being fixed

at the BBC.

So

I was like, "All right, what's next?"

You know, and you know, of course I took

into consideration at the time how

people were consuming content, the age

group of the listeners that were

listening to radio,

um the type the demographic of people

that was listening to radio. I felt like

it changed and

the way we consume content had changed

forever and I felt like listening to

radio was no longer an appointment. I

used to wait

every night to listen to Zane Lowe.

I used to wait every week- weekend

to listen to Westwood. It was an

appointment. I wouldn't miss it.

I felt like those days had moved on and

people were listening

at their leisure.