if I'm not drinking or snorting

something what the [ __ ] do I actually

enjoy doing you know who am I Africa

Brooke is a speaker a podcast host and

she's helped hundreds of thousands of

people see the world in a new light

Africa does not give a [ __ ] and that's

why I love her if you're on the left

then you're the good person if you're on

the right then you're the bad person

we're hanging out online where these

platforms incentivize binary thinking

are you with us or are you against us

there's only so much you can take most

people didn't like when I said that as a

black person I'm not oppressed that

there is a very real difference between

being a victim and making victimhood an

identity because if you don't think that

you're worthy that's always going to be

the belief that you feed every single

time what became your dark side

from the age of 14 I was a blackout

Drinker that's when I started to see

that I was behaving in the exact same

way that my dad did

sex and sexuality can you talk to me

about what you've learned about those

topics that might benefit me well

without further Ado I'm Stephen Bartlett

and this is the diver CEO I hope

nobody's listening but if you are then

please keep this to yourself Africa

[Music]

let's I mean if you've seen this podcast

before it's no surprise where I'm going

to start but um I was reading about your

story I was reading about

um where you grew up and yes where

you're originally born

give me your earliest most relevant

context give me the context of

um

where you came from and and how that

context shape the person that sits here

with me today oh that's good

some Zimbabwean

I'm from Zimbabwe and I think uh this

accent always falls people into thinking

that I was born and raised here but I

was born in Zimbabwe which is in the

south of Africa and I came to the UK

when I was nine years old so I remember

my life back home in Zimbabwe quite

clearly and vividly actually I don't

remember it being hard apart from my

experiences with my father

even though he could be the most

Charming Man and he was such a beautiful

man he was the kind of person that walks

into a room and you can feel that

Maxwell has arrived just a very

beautiful spirit but when he was drunk

he could be very different completely

different so I think the times that I

can remember experiencing

most of my sadness or frustration as a

child was experiencing that side of my

father because he could be very abusive

and he was physically abusive to my mum

and to myself and my siblings but I

don't even look at those things and

think that I had a horrible childhood in

Zimbabwe I have so many wonderful

wonderful memories of being home and I

still call it home you know when people

ask me where I'm from I always say

Zimbabwe before I say the UK or that I'm

British

um yeah

you know when you say that you look back

on Zimbabwe with fun fun memories yeah

um is that because at the time when in

your household you didn't understand

that behavior you didn't understand that

it was bad behavior or that it was

abnormal

or is it genuinely because on balance

you you consider it to be a

a happy childhood yeah I think it's

actually the letter I think I definitely

understood that this wasn't right

although to be honest there were a lot

of behaviors that my father exhibited

that were considered normal just because

of the culture for example things like

disciplining your wife through hitting

her etc etc or your children it was just

kind of seen as normal

but I definitely knew that it wasn't

right I definitely knew that there was a

problem I knew that seeing a person that

is that drunk was not something that

felt comfortable it wasn't remotely

normal I'm able to now I think an

adulthood hold multiple truths which is

something interestingly enough that I

speak about a lot of my work the

importance of being able to hold

multiple truths because like I say about

my dad

I saw him as a bad person I saw him as

an evil person even and he passed away

in 2004 and I never mourned his death

because of the resentment that I was

holding towards him but then when I got

sober years later I had to hold multiple

truths about him to realize that he was

a beautiful man I got to experience him

in the very early years of my life as

being a very present father

um as being a very loving father before

alcohol came into his life in the way

that it did so I had to then start

holding multiple truths about him

because it wasn't all bad so I think I

hold those fond memories because I've

had to realize that they did actually

exist Beyond everything else

you said in your 10 years you started to

realize that he'd been

um

how bad he'd been to your your mother

yeah

how did you start to realize that at

that age

three stories

um

through speaking to my siblings about

what we had all experienced in the home

because we never really spoke I I don't

know what it's like in your family or

when you were growing up but we never

really spoke

about much especially when it came to

things that were potentially

hard to talk about things that it

revolved around emotions and being

vulnerable things that had anything to

do with intimacy or a lack of intimacy

even the most obvious things like seeing

my mum being hit and not talking about

it almost just pretending that it didn't

happen so I think in adulthood when I

started seeing how other families were

when I started to see how open other

people are I then started to see the

lack in what I had experienced growing

up so I think that's when I started kind

of one I wanted to know more did anyone

else see what was happening did my aunts

and uncles know what was happening

um why didn't anyone talk about it why

didn't anyone talk to us why so I think

I had so many

why type of questions which fueled a lot

of my resentment

yeah

some of the times you used there you

said before alcohol showed up in his

life

as you'll know

um

these things tend to We tend to attract

these things into our lives easily as

you describe it as a a firmer lid to

hold some trauma I think there's some

terminology used previously

um in some some of your work yeah did

you ever understand the trauma that he

was trying to

and bottle up using alcohol

you know what that's something that is

still unfolding because I think there's

only so far

that

other family members will go in terms of

really telling me and my siblings or

anyone else that wants to know the

reality of what was really going on but

I think he was also from a family where

people didn't really have many

conversations his

younger brother had committed suicide

when he was 26 and

there were other instances of mental

health and that wasn't really spoken

about as well because because culturally

people just didn't talk about these

things so I think there were things that

he was suppressing that I'll never ever

know about so I think I've had to make

peace with the fact that I I won't be

able to get all of the answers as to why

and how I just have to understand what

did happen and what I experienced and

forgive where I can get answers where I

can and also let go of expectations

I had a guest on this podcast called Tim

Grover and he he talked about his early

upbringing he was he ended up being

Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's

trainer and he says that

um our childhood experiences tend to

create our Brilliance but they also

create our dark side and he referred to

it as his dark side he told me about his

dark side yeah um Dark Side can

sometimes mean insecurities it can mean

the

the worst traits or character flaws

within us but

from the experience you had

what became your dark side um

oh that's a fantastic question you know

what I ended up replicating pretty much

the same drinking behavior that my dad

had

from the age of 14 up until 24 when I

finally got sober so a decade long

um I was a blackout Drinker I was a

binge Drinker very specifically I didn't

know when to stop because my intention

was never to stop from the first time

that I drunk it's almost as if something

magical happened I realized that I could

change who I was that I didn't have to

feel insecure anymore that I didn't have

to think about the areas in which I'm

Different the areas in which can lead to

me being abandoned because I'm different

and what I mean specifically by that is

when I came to the UK when I was nine

years old I always say this and I I'll

continue saying it because it was one of

the it's a something that I love her but

it was quite big it was the first time

that I realized that I'm black

I had never Stephen had to think about

it before ever had to think about it but

we moved to Kent when in 2001 when we

first came to the country and in my

school it was probably me and my sister

and one other boy called Curtis we were

the only black kids in the entire school

and I know you've shared your similar

experiences with kind of just seeing

just how much you stand out in an

environment that you have to be in and

we were living in Kent for about three

years and then we moved to London but

the imprint was already made the

insecurity around who I was as a young

black girl when I moved to London it was

completely different because now I was

seen as prissy I was seen as attractive

but that was also very confusing in

itself because I still didn't quite fit

in because now to most of the black

people that I was around I was white

because of the the way that I spoke by

the time I was 14 and I drunk alcohol

for the first time

sort of silenced all of those things I

remember it was in a park with some

friends and

the more that I drunk the more confident

I became or so I thought

um and the more that I just felt at ease

in myself and in my body and with the

people around me even though I didn't

stop binge drinking or blackout drinking

from that moment an imprint had been

made a pattern started to develop that

every time that I drunk from that time

the intention was to get [ __ ] up the

intention was to experience that same

level of comfort and confidence that I

felt that first time and I tried and did

replicate that same pattern

over and over and over and over again

for 10 years

and

that's when I started to see that I was

behaving in the exact same way that my

dad did

so I think that's the sort of shadow

that started to form

lying

that became a habit of yours it did

compulsive lying

what what was

compulsive lying doing for you on a

psychological level what was it what was

it allowing you to escape from or Escape

where to was it allowing you to escape

to

um

it was allowing me to

feel accepted

it was

allowing me to sort of create my own

world because the world that I'd been in

a world where

someone that was supposed to protect me

and my siblings and my family

um did the complete opposite and damaged

our family in a very very very big way I

remember that it did start in Zimbabwe

when I would be at school and I was

quite young maybe even six

probably around six or seven I would go

to school and sort of tell other kids

about my dad and who he was and how

amazing he was and all these things that

he would he would do and parts of it

were true but most of it wasn't most of

it was just me trying to create a

reality that I could live with a reality

that made me feel safe a reality that

made me feel comfortable a reality that

other people could sort of step into for

a moment and think wow that's that's

incredible so therefore it would make me

incredible in some kind of way so I

think I started to get rewarded for that

and then it just became habitual because

any time that I felt like I wasn't

fitting in in the way that I wanted to

or that things were happening within our

home that were just very uncomfortable

and I didn't again have the language for

that it was it was all just feeling

knowing that something is quite wrong I

would then go into a different

environment and just create a story and

I when you was speaking to example I

think he was talking about something

similar in relation to lying where he

was saying kind of embellishing the

truth if you will to kind of create a

story and I resonated with that so much

because I think that's exactly what it

was for me just trying to create a

different world and when alcohol was a

part of that as well it was just even

more explosive and I think there was

something quite addictive about that

being able to create your own reality

and convince other people that that

reality is actually true

um so it would it was definitely a big

part of my drinking something that would

come out it's so interesting because

when you were describing why you lied a

lot of people listen to this and think

well I can't relate because I'm not a

liar yeah but the lens in which I sort

of heard that through is

um pretty much everyone listening to

this is lying for the same reason the

words you used were to create a reality

then you said I would be rewarded for

and I found it better to live in and if

you think about

an Instagram filter yeah yes that's a

that's a form of creating a world where

you feel more comfortable and get more

rewards for even like this the selection

of the the online identity that some

some of us create where we show just the

very best or we try and change how we

look or whatever that is surely a form

of lying to get better rewards and to to

create a world where you feel more

comfortable and safer to live in yes

like you you know and so lying is not

just saying something which is not true

yes it's a morphing of one's identity to

create a safer I guess Identity or story

yeah that the world might reward you for

but in doing so you obviously abandon

yourself exactly so it's like um

another word that comes to mind as we

talk about is is deception right it's a

form of of deception and I think it for

me it was

not even just about deceiving other

people it was deceiving myself so that I

could live with myself better you know

if I see myself through this lens

um but yeah it's very interesting how we

can hear certain words and think no that

doesn't that doesn't resonate with me I

don't do that but then it just shows up

very subtly in the things we do every

single day but yeah lying was a was a

huge thing was a huge huge thing for me

and it's something that I really had to

look dead in the eye when I got sober

six years ago

um yeah

going back to that that period where you

were drinking yeah you were engaging in

certain abandonment star behaviors to

try and escape from you know this

um who you were what is the cost of

abandoning yourself

what is the cost I know it's quite a

profound thing but yeah what was the

cost for you of that continual for

almost 10 years finding ways to abandon

yourself

the cost was that

forgot to know myself

I never got to know myself not in the

ways that I really wanted to anyway I

got I got to know the version of me that

I thought people wanted so I wasted a

lot of time doing that and there was

also a very real mental cost because

waking up next to someone not knowing

where you are not knowing if you've had

sex with that person there's a huge

mental cost to that on your self-esteem

it feels a lot of Shame if he was a lot

of guilt because I would be in

relationships sometimes when these

things would happen not not have I

cheated on my partner or was this just

something innocent because my clothes

are still on so it it really really had

a huge mental cost so there was a lot of

anxiety there was a lot of insecurity I

would even say you know a low level

paranoia because when you wake up not

knowing whether you've done something

but feeling like you will need to

apologize for something

um going through my phone just to have

an idea of what I've done or what I

didn't do who was I with how did I end

up all the way in [ __ ] sorry when I

was in SoHo not too long ago

um

so there was a huge mental cost but also

there was a spiritual cost because just

like I said right a few moments ago not

getting to know yourself

and then getting sober further down the

line and feeling like you're a newborn

baby I I didn't even know what I like to

do what the [ __ ] do I actually enjoy

doing if I'm not drinking or smoking

something or snorting something what do

I actually what do I enjoy you know who

am I as an individual without all of

those things can I even be by myself

so there was a huge spiritual cost and

once I realized the cost of all of those

things it was around the same time that

I discovered the concept of

self-sabotage right when you get in your

own way and that helped me so much just

to even have that language to understand

what this thing actually was why I had

been in that destructive cycle for such

a long time

um I want to just on that point of the

destructive cycle because when you were

explaining waking up you know um the

next day somewhere you don't know you

don't know what you've done the night

before yeah and that giving you guilt to

hurting your self-worth it's yeah it was

my brain was going well this was meant

to be the the medicine for a lack of

self-worth yes and it ends up taking

even more of your self-where so it's

this kind of race to the bottom of your

self-esteem by thinking that the

medication is this kind of destructive

abandonment behavior and it's and that's

weirdly self-reinforcing so you do it to

try and Escape but it harms you so much

that you need that maybe that sort of

surface level attention the alcohol even

more so that leads you in the same place

and that vicious cycle to the bottom of

your self-esteem right and trying to

pick yourself up out of that is

one hell of a task oh yeah it's probably

one of the most grueling things I've

done which is why I actually I'm

actually very grateful for all of those

times that I did Relapse because I think

I was reminded every single time just

how much I wanted to break this [ __ ]

cycle and how much I had to because it's

so

anything that is familiar

anything that is familiar feels safe in

some way even though objectively it

might look like how is this person not

changing their life clearly they're

losing everyone around them and I'm

talking about myself losing everyone

around them can't even stay in any job

for longer than a month unable to commit

to anything incredibly unreliable

how can they not see that something

needs to change but the thing is when

you are in that cycle of

self-destruction self-sabotage if it

feels familiar it's kind of all you know

that when I would have those bursts of

sobriety where I'd be sober for three

months and six months and I didn't have

any chaos I didn't have any drama I was

reliable I people were saying that

they're proud of me you know I could see

that I was doing well it made me

uncomfortable

it made me uncomfortable because it

didn't feel familiar and there was

always this thing in the back of my mind

that would sort of say you're gonna [ __ ]

up anyway so might as well just

might as well just do it now you know

and that's when the justifications would

come things like I haven't had a drink

in six months so maybe if I just have

one it's it's going to be different you

know or I would say things like um

I have a problem with alcohol but

cocaine is not the problem so maybe I

can still have a line every now and

again and then you know and then I can

still be with my friends and so all of

these justifications but when I really

looked at it I was uncomfortable with my

life actually being drama free chaos

free and being reliable being able to be

there for the people that I that I love

um because I was just so comfortable in

that destruction and I chose that every

single time until until I didn't until I

couldn't

if someone's listening to this

um and they're in one of those sort of

downward

um negatively reinforcing self-esteem

Cycles yeah where you're carrying out a

behavior because it because you have low

self-esteem but then that behavior is

actually resulting in a lowering of your

self-esteem it can be a toxic

relationship where you're staying

because they took your self-esteem so

you think that they're the only ones

that can give it back but they're

hurting you even more yeah I see that a

lot in my DMs right it can be other what

advice would you give to someone to try

and break out of that

um that negatively reinforcing

self-esteem cycle um I think one of the

things I think questions are always the

best place to start I always like to

think of self-sabotage and

self-destruction as self-protection

you're actually protecting yourself from

something and a lot of it is unconscious

you're not consciously deciding to get

in your own way you're not consciously

deciding to stay in chaos and drama

because you just absolutely love it

maybe for some people that might be the

case but for most of us it's entirely

unconscious but I think

getting clear on what the benefits are

because you're getting some kind of

reward from it right because if you

don't think that you're worthy if you

don't think that you're lovable that's

always going to be the belief that you

feed every single time it's some kind of

confirmation it's like a c i I see I

said that I wasn't unlovable that's why

I choose someone who shouts at me that's

why I choose someone who manipulates me

that's why I choose someone who cheats

on me over and over again that's why I

choose someone who shames me or whatever

the details might be so I think there's

always some kind of reward that we're

getting from that situation and I think

it can be a very sounds quite abstract

but I think it can be an important

question to ask yourself what am I what

reward am I actually getting from this

and is this going to be worth it in the

long term

and all of this to me kind of sounds

like shifting your identity and what

you're used to and allowing yourself to

get used to things that might not be

familiar yet I think you also have to

understand that when you're breaking

some kind of cycle it's going to be

uncomfortable that's why I'm a huge

advocate for discomfort because I think

a lot of us when we change a pattern the

moment we feel uncomfortable even though

it's good for us the moment we feel

uncomfortable we'll pull the plug and we

often pull the plugs so prematurely so I

think one of the things that I would

suggest and I say this to my clients and

anyone that I speak to allow yourself to

be in that discomfort because a lot of

the time it's where you currently are

with your identity and the identity that

you're trying to step into someone who

is more lovable for example but that

middle part is going to be quite

uncomfortable and you just have to stay

there while things sort of reconfigure

is that like because you're contending

against two counters or counters yes yes

and it takes time to believe a new story

so you're gonna have to sit in maybe a

feeling of him

feeling like a bit of an imposter or you

know what I mean it's almost like this

evidence but right at the end of the day

all these stories are backed by either

true or false but it's subjective

evidence yeah that's who you are and

what the world thinks of me and what I'm

capable of so that's it writing new

evidence is not an easy or a quick no no

and it's not supposed to be because I

think

um I think we also have this idea that

it's supposed to be easy you know that

kind of once you make a decision and you

decide that you're going to do it that

it should just work and if it doesn't if

it's uncomfortable that means it's wrong

that means you should pull the plug

that's not that's not always the case

what she what do you still

self-sabotage

with or how do you still sabotage

you know what it is for me romantic

relationships

and it always helps me when I'm very

honest about the fact that this is an

area where I still have self-sabotaging

Tendencies so what that looks like is

feeling

when someone is trying to get close to

me

I will immediately start to feel

suffocated

I'll start to feel like I need to find

something wrong with you so that you

don't get too close even if I want you

to get close but it's because there's a

a part of me doesn't want to be

vulnerable because vulnerability in that

area means being exposed it means being

raw exposed to what exposed

vulnerable

you know what I think it is I think it's

a to put it very simply I think it's

it's a feeling of if you really get to

know me you might abandon me and I think

this is not something that's even you

know on a conscious level because I have

a strong sense of self I know who I am

etc etc but I think there is

still those sort of traces from

childhood from everything that I've

experienced in my life that those

remnants of that that have that voice

that say if I really let you in and you

actually get to know me you might

abandon me so what I need to do I need

to find a way to get in there first and

abandon you before you abandon me

so that might look like as I said once

the person is starting to kind of get

close I will feel suffocated I'll feel

like okay it's getting too much I need

my own space what's what's wrong with

you danger yeah huh danger

um where did you learn that model that a

romantic relationship might be danger oh

gosh I mean take a guess take a guess

the the

first relationship that I ever saw a man

and woman a couple being together was my

mother and my father and that's the

model in which I had to kind of build my

own idea of romantic love and what

relationships look like so I've never

wanted to get too close and I could

never have said this to you before I

didn't have language for it but when I

looked at the patterns from relationship

to relationship I always thought that

they had a timeline as well never going

anywhere beyond the one year mark always

feeling like okay that's enough we've

done our time let's let's uh release

yeah yes so I think um romantic

relationships is one and I also had one

in terms of money and this one I really

had to nip it in the bud when I started

my consulting firm five years ago

I used to sabotage any opportunity to

potentially make more money than my mum

so my mum is a nurse

so when I started sharing my sobriety

story and I started realizing that I'm

actually very good at what I do in terms

of speaking in terms of supporting

people I'm a very curious person and I

do have a powerful story a powerful

story that allows me to reach so many

different types of people so it gained a

lot of traction quite early on in 2016

2017.

so I would start getting speaking

opportunities in the beginning

everything was sort of free and I was

okay with that never had to negotiate

things around money money was not

something that was spoken about in my

family growing up I don't know what it

was like for you but the only time that

money conversations were really had

um was through arguments you would only

hear Money spoken about where there

wasn't enough money

etc etc etc so I always had so many

different money stories money is very

hard to come by money doesn't grow on

trees you have to work hard for money

um so many ideas about rich people rich

people are bad rich people are this and

no one in my family explicitly said that

but I think culturally it was sort of

just a thing people don't have to

explicitly say it culturally we all know

what the stories are so when I would

hear or get emails saying Africa we'd

love for you to speak at this thing it's

just half an hour what is your rate

we're offering 3K

um I would just experience so much

discomfort knowing that my mum is

working

so many hours as a nurse on her feet and

she's probably making half of that or

just about that

so what I would do and this was not a

conscious thing until I started looking

at my money story I would let those

emails sit any email that was saying I

would be getting paid

I would let those emails sit until it

was too late they've probably offered

someone else because I just felt so

uncomfortable making money so easily so

I would sabotage any opportunity to get

paid but if it was free I will reply

straight away I'll do it but when you're

in business that doesn't [ __ ] work

it doesn't work but even outside of that

I I was shown that because I was

incapable of receiving when it came to

money I was incapable of receiving in so

many areas I was incapable of receiving

love fully because when I did I would

shut down because a part of me thinks I

don't deserve it I was then capable of

receiving opportunities because I'd feel

like this has happened way too easily

I'm supposed to it's supposed to be hard

but this is so easy so I would be

suspicious of it and sabotage it so

those are the two main areas that I've

really had to do some work on over the

past years on the first point

um you were very much preaching to the

choir there as I've talked about quite a

few times on this podcast why do I see

relationships as like a bird trapped in

a cage or someone trapped in jail well

okay well that's what my father was my

father was trapped my father my whole

life I I was convinced he was trapped

that was my first model of what a

romantic relationship was so of course

it was the most

um most evidence-backed yeah and so

you've got a it's similar to what we

were talking about earlier about like

stepping into a new story yes and

although every part of your being is

going this is bad you've got to stay you

do communicate with in this case the

person say by the way this this happens

so yes I struggle yes

um and hopefully build new evidence and

the right person can help you build new

evidence I agree which is what my

girlfriend helped me to do she helped me

to build without by just being herself

and not being a prison guard

she created new evidence and that new

evidence is strong it's not the old

evidence is still there I don't actually

think the old evidence will ever go oh I

love that you say that Stephen I really

do because I think it's again this idea

that it has to go completely before we

step into the other one and I think

that's what holds people back from fully

stepping into their new identity because

they think

if I'm really supposed to be here and

this is actually real and I have all of

this new evidence that's not supposed to

be there at all and I think again

there's multiple truths they can coexist

it's just what you choose to feed over

and over again

yeah and you you know if you think of

spiders like I'm not scared of spiders

but there's a part of me that goes

there's a lot of evidence because I've

seen other people running away from them

I've seen films yes but I'm not I know

like objective but I've got enough

evidence to say that despite they don't

even bite yeah you know no one's dying

of spiders really but I'm still there's

still a little bit of evidence be

careful you know and I can exist with

those two truths as you as you described

it you're totally right though in the

sense that people expect them that they

will get to a place where they are

healed and cured completely

and I I just have never seen it me

neither me neither never seen it ever

and I think we have a current culture

actually so I'm um

I'm a coach and consultant and speaker

Etc who's in the realm of self-help

but despises

the self-help industry for a multitude

of reasons because I think it

perpetuates that idea that idea of

healing as if it's a destination yeah

you know you sign up for this course get

this book listen to this podcast and

then it's it's done then you're healed

so I think there's a lot of people that

are in a very good place if you were to

look at it in a very holistic way but

continuously believe that they have to

rid themselves of these very human

things and this you know inevitable

human discomfort that we all experience

and they put labels on it to make it you

know mean like it's this

um so yeah I think there's a cult there

is a culture right now where people are

on this continuous journey of healing

when actually some of these things won't

actually

go away completely and that's fine

that's normal it's an interesting thing

because there are some people out there

as well I want to get your take on this

sure I've basically made healing their

identity uh-huh it's their personal

brand it's their space being broken and

healing is there it's who they are and

they've embraced that is that harmful

and dangerous in your view absolutely I

think it is I think it is because it's

it again perpetuates another idea which

ties into this that

we need to be on this pursuit of

constantly fixing something you know

um and I think I've also seen people do

that in the as you say it as a brand but

people making it yeah making it the

actual business their public Persona

this is who I am and I think it

encourages other people or makes other

people feel that they need to do the

same thing or that they need to sort of

make their pain their identity as well

you also see this with people

um who uh contrarian just for the sake

of being contrarian right I think that's

why you yeah they just have to disagree

they just have to disagree with you and

they usually that's why when I talk

about

um you know this kind of

seemingly a battle between the work

versus anti-work I always

see that essentially they're quite the

same they're exactly the same you will

have the people that are for example

anti-work want to be contrarian for the

sake of it you know screaming about how

woke everyone has got if people are

let's say talking about being inclusive

they'll just label that as work it's the

exact same behavior as they claim to

oppose which I find very interesting how

people can be so

loud about something and be so convicted

and be wanting to point out a specific

type of behavior not realizing that

they're behaving in the exact same way

but I think it is part of that

performance where people are being

rewarded because they're performing in a

very specific way and they see that okay

if I perform in this way I'm going to

get likes I'm going to get opportunities

I get to to sort of feel it really feeds

the ego as well when you have your Echo

chamber and you have people that say yes

to everything you have people that see

you as some sort of um leader but I

think it's building some very

interesting characters online especially

I wonder if both extremes so the far

left and the far right I wonder if

they're just both low self-esteem yes

yes because they're the ones that seem

to need the the reinforcements yes I

will be militant about these views

because by being further over here I'm

getting more people that are clapping

yes you know whereas Nuance seems to be

a place where you don't care much as as

much about the Clapping yeah you're not

really doing it for the clap you're

doing it for in my view more for truth

yes yes I I see that a lot and have you

found

um

would you say I think from listening to

everything you've said I I kind of have

an idea of what this would look like for

you but would you say that you're more

in that Nuance would you say you've

always been more in the middle or have

you ever found yourself on either I used

to think I was ever on the left yeah now

if I think I'm somewhere in the middle

yeah so um I can't what you described

earlier is like an intolerance of ideas

it's

you know and both but both extreme side

so the far left the far right are both

just really intolerant yeah and I and

they're not willing to have a

conversation with anybody so I find

myself being pushed more towards this

center point where I find people like me

people like you yeah I think I don't

know where you consider yourself yeah

the exact same you know what I don't

think I've ever

um

even used language like I'm on the left

or anything like that and maybe there's

something about being an immigrant

because when I speak to immigrants and

people that are not from this country I

think we have a different relationship

with politics in general you will never

really hear most people

um saying that on the left or they're on

the right I think it won't really happen

most people are the majority of people

really are in that Center in that middle

ground I would say if you were to look

at my values and what I stand for

objectively yes I'm a left-leaning

person but I don't make that my identity

I don't look at everything on that side

and say okay check check I agree with

that everything is context dependent and

there are many things that I agree with

from different sides because I just look

at what is the context what are we

talking about does this make sense to me

is this applicable in real life

um so that's the sort of

process that I take myself through and

it's neither left or right it's very

much in the middle like everyone like

the majority of people

yeah I think the majority of people

probably are but but it I think

especially in this day and age it takes

it's much probably easier because you

get to fit in if you're on either side

yes there's no Club in the middle yeah

there's no you know what I mean there's

no uniform yeah in the middle so you

don't you don't those that might want to

fit in and be reinforced by um a group

aren't going to find that in the middle

ground yeah pick a side do you actually

see what I mean it's like yeah it's a

club they have you know a uniform they

have stickers they have like a schedule

they have a doctor in they have Ten

Commandments yeah this is why people

join Cults isn't it it's true and you

know what um speaking of Cults when I

wrote when I wrote my open letter

um why I'm leaving the cult of weakness

I

was really trying to have this

conversation because essentially I I was

speaking about what we're talking about

now an invitation into that middle

ground where most people are inviting

people to acknowledge nuance and context

to really realize that black people for

example we don't all think the same we

have very different experiences and we

have very different opinions we have

very different beliefs World Views

most people

um that identify as being on the left

would not have that conversation with me

it's only just starting to happen now

the only people that would be willing to

have those conversations with me would

be people that would be seen as being on

the right and I found that very

interesting that you know when you look

at being a leftist it is about being

tolerant it is about

um well I guess that would be what would

what would that be would it be classic

liberalism if you were to I guess so

right

um but even that approach is seen as

right wing now so I understand why a lot

of people really are getting pushed out

of the left and more into the center

because most people would not have that

conversation with me because the moment

you critique something from the left

you're labeled as being on the right

which is just the most absurd thing I

have ever heard

um but I think now two years on

things are starting to shift a little

bit more I think people have stopped

being so fearful of what is known as

cancer culture even though I prefer to

call it Collective sabotage because I

think that's a much more accurate term

for it I think people are being less

afraid now to ask questions to be like

actually let's let's hear what this view

actually is we don't have to agree with

it but we can at least acknowledge that

it exists but I think people that are on

the right from my own experience

especially if we're talking about media

Etc have been more willing to have these

conversations and to have more debates

and to honor that gray more than the

left

I've you know I've probably had

thousands of tweets from people telling

me that I cannot speak to that person on

my podcast right

thousands of tweets and I promise you

I've never had those tweets from someone

on the right yeah no matter which guest

I get on and what they believe no one

from the right has said Steve you cannot

platform that person right it's never

happened so and that that again you're

not help you're you're

basically going to punish me if I don't

um say think and have conversations that

are in line with your Doctrine yeah and

for me that for me has been alienating

and this is why I now consider myself to

be more in the middle because I don't

agree with that intolerance I think I

should be able to have a conversation

with anyone including Donald Trump right

I I hope I never get to the point where

I would not be willing to have a

conversation conversation you know what

I mean yeah that's a that's a that

reminds me of like the I don't know 18th

century I know nothing about history so

I just named an old Century reminds me

of the 18th century when they used to

like burn books because they even want

people to hear stuff yes and yes anyway

speaking of controversial topics one of

the things that's become surprisingly

controversial over the last couple of

years is and probably for a little while

longer

um since the 17th century

um is this idea of accountability which

to me seems like much of the antidote to

self-sabotage is like taking personal

responsibility for your life and your

situation I've heard you talk about this

I actually think this was the first the

first one of your first videos that

caught my attention was you talking

about taking responsibility in a really

you know a fairly direct way so tell me

how taking responsibility what that

means to you but how that helped you to

rise out of that phase you had from 14

to 24. yeah oh it was huge it was huge

and it had to be one of the first things

that I did actually as I as I think

about this and sort of speak out loud

I think what allowed me to get and stay

sober that eighth and final time was

taking personal responsibility I think

all of the other times I had wanted to

place blame on a lot of things outside

of me so my dad would have been the

easiest person because he was an

alcoholic and because of his abuse and

because of everything we experienced and

because of the instability because of

coming to a new country moving to a part

of the UK where just me my sister and

Curtis are the only black kids the

adversity I experienced from that so I

think there were so many ways that I

could externalize right but I think the

moment that I was able to say okay well

Africa what part did you have to play in

this so you've experienced all of this

adversity what now what [ __ ] now

no one else can do it for you and I

think that helped me so much and another

thing that I had to do which is a part

of that responsibility and

accountability was making amends so

people that have followed the 12-step

program for example will know that

making amends is a huge part of it I

didn't follow the toaster program I

what's the 12-step program so 12-step is

AA essentially Alcoholics Anonymous you

go through a process a 12-step process

of accountability essentially and one of

those steps is making amends reaching

out to the people that you've harmed and

making amends and that's what I had to

do and I I really did that and there was

a lot of Shame there was a lot of guilt

there were a lot of people that didn't

want to hear it but there were a lot of

people that were very grateful that even

after all of these years I'm coming to

them and acknowledging something that I

did or played a part in and only then

could I actually move forward with my

sobriety knowing that I am responsible

yes I've experienced a lot of adversity

but I am the one that gets to decide

what now so fast forward to finding

ourselves in a culture where even just

conversations around personal

responsibility are have been politicized

because I've noticed they're labeled as

right wing the moment isn't that weird

it's mad

isn't that crazy the moment you say

you do realize there is a lot in your

life that you can control you're called

a bigot

[Applause]

I'm a puppet and I'm a victim there's

nothing I can control it's and it's that

political party that did this yeah okay

so yes

and that yeah

it's [ __ ] crazy it's mad and I think

I've

I speak to my family and my friends

about all of these things quite a lot

actually and because I'm still very much

in touch with everyone back home in

Zimbabwe and because I have that

perspective

when I compare to that part of the world

to the Western World it this just seems

like a completely different world like

some kind of show it can't be real that

people can get upset to know that there

are things in your life that you can

control yes you might have experienced X

Y and Z but you are responsible for how

you move forward yes there might be

other components maybe it is the system

maybe it is your familial environment

whatever the details might be but there

are also things within your control the

fact that people can

label that as

being bigoted the moment you say I I

just wouldn't you want that to be the

case wouldn't you want to have things

that you can control the thought of

being powerless yeah to my circumstances

is the most terrifying thing in the

world you know being being a being a big

that's why I refer to it as a puppet

that someone else is pulling these

strings right and I have no I'm

powerless to my situation so I think

it's I find it empowering and liberating

to say do you know there is a lot of

things I can control yes I'm I'm broke

yes I'm in this situation but there are

there's something that I can do yeah and

I have to also Express the Nuance that

you did which is there are a lot of

people that are um that are disabled

there are a lot of people that have

found themselves in terrifically

unfortunate circumstances through no

fault of their own yes but I find it

really important for my sanity of mind

and my optimism for the future to know

that there is something

often there is something that I can do

to change my situation absolutely that's

a controversial idea

imagine that would you have I couldn't

believe the people typing out at you

Rich [ __ ] with his cards what

what what is it though do you do you

think you know what that is yeah because

it holds a mirror up to you it makes you

feel like for some people and I think it

was for me at some point as well holding

that mirror up and saying you know what

I might have had part to play in this

and I'm actually I I can have a part in

getting out of the situation for some

people is it evidence of their

inadequacy that they just don't have the

self-esteem to confront so it's easier

to blame blame is a nice a nice Shield

it's a nice way to deflect the attack

against my already fragile self-esteem I

would do that of course when I was

younger and someone might point at

something blame was a way for you not to

hit me in the self-esteem it was a way

of saying no no no no that's not because

I'm inadequate or because I'm not

capable or I'm not smart or because I'm

not working hard it's because of this

other thing and so leave me alone Africa

blocks yes it's like do you know what I

mean that's that's my analysis a bit

often is it's for some people it's it's

look it's a

it feels like evidence of their

inadequacy yes and why what would

someone not like that well because

it makes you feel like [ __ ] yeah and I I

think because we're also

being encouraged I've especially the

youngest generation who I

really

now more than ever want to make more of

an effort to really speak directly to

them is because I think we're we're sort

of training each other to not prioritize

emotional resilience because along with

personal responsibility resilience is

also another controversial word you know

this this idea that you can build a

strong Foundation within yourself that

even if something happens externally

outside of you you are able to deal with

it you don't have to go into that deep

dark place and think that is that full

stop so I think because most people

are not emotionally resilient and are

not nurturing and sort of cultivating

that within themselves it continues that

cycle where you just end up in perpetual

victimhood and then we are in a culture

that rewards victims you know and I I

think self-correction there actually and

I want to make this very clear that

there is a very real difference between

being a victim someone who has genuinely

been victimized and making victimhood an

identity there's a there's a huge

difference between the two but I think

when you start to make victimhood an

identity for anything and everything

that's when it might be time to actually

hold a mirror up to yourself on that

word resilience yeah I think the reason

why resilience is in part at least why

it's a controversial topic is because it

kind of starts to merge into the lane of

like mental health and resilient people

when they think of resilience they think

of like shut up and deal with it yeah

you know what I mean yeah and then that

that acts as in Conflict to them

Narrative of like express yourself feel

your emotions yeah it's okay to be not

okay yeah so talk to me about the

distinction you make between those two

things and your relationship with both

you know what I guess this is where I

would bring it back around

to holding those multiple truths because

why do we think that we have to choose

between one or the other why can't you

be both emotionally resilient as an

individual as a being and allow yourself

to express yourself and allow yourself

to be vulnerable and allow yourself to

have those real low moments that we all

do and I think both can co-exist it's

really not one or the other so what is

the opposite of resilience then

hmm

the word weakness comes to mind but I

don't know if that's accurate

I don't know if that's accurate to what

I'm not sure

but it's interesting because the word

weakness comes to mind and maybe a part

of me

or even for someone listening we

we think associating the word weak

to yourself means there's something

wrong with you that it's a bad word I

think there's this idea that it's it's

bad to be weak or it's not acceptable to

be weak but I think we all have moments

of weakness but I don't know if that

would be the opposite of

of resilience what do you think

um so if we're talking about emotional

resilience maybe the opposite is

emotional

maybe fragility yeah maybe I don't know

um it's something within that realm

right yeah and the reason I I'm

basically Playing devil's advocate was

myself to see if

to see if it is two truths because or if

what we were describing earlier about

being expressive and being in touch with

your emotions is that being emotionally

fragile or is that something else I

wonder if another word that's coming to

mind if some reason soft

I think it's both possible to be soft

and whatever you would consider hard

because just in very simple language

when I hear the word resilience you have

to be

hard there's something sort of it's not

necessarily stoic but but it's it's sort

of that kind of language where you're

really fully grounded in yourself your

back is straight you're internally up

you know whereas the other side of that

is maybe maybe there is an element of

fragility which is fine I don't I don't

think it's a bad thing allowing yourself

to be soft allowing yourself to be

um to not be as strong all of the time

so I I think it's interesting thing

because on one hand you're saying be

resilient but then also be the opposite

of resilience yes yeah

yeah it can be context-specific Behavior

so you can be resilient in the sense

that when someone

um pelts abuse at you and your Instagram

DMS you have the resilience to not

internalize that not let it

um destroy your day or your mood and to

move on but then you can be I guess

emotionally you know then your dog might

die I've got a lovely dog running around

somewhere here yeah and my dog might die

and that is real cause for emotional

expression and to be emotionally

to be soft and to be

um open and to feel yes so maybe it's

context specific yeah I think so I think

so but again I I think they can both

coexist

how did you get to this place of

self-awareness because

you know

um I I you know we all know people who

are repeating cycles and they have no

either they're taking their

responsibility for it or they just don't

know that they're doing it yeah and

sometimes as friends and this is again

this is us looking in on this situation

as if we know what's best for them so

there's an error there but we look we

see friends family going through cycles

and they don't know what they're doing

and they don't they don't understand

themselves enough to the point where you

are today where you clearly

um you exhibit High self-awareness and

understanding of yourself your past your

behavior and the causes of it

um one of my favorite quotes that I've

ever written which is based on based on

a friend I had was um you can read as

many books as you like but if you can't

read yourself you'll never truly learn a

thing but you can also say you can read

as many books as you like but if you

can't read yourself you'll never make

progress yes because you can have the

information but implementing it requires

understanding the being in which yeah

you're implementing that too so how did

you become so apparently self-aware

you know what I think

I've always loved to read I've always

loved to read and to to hear other

people's stories and to hear other

people's thoughts so one of the first

people that I discovered

um the eighth time that I got sober was

Carl Jung

so he's a incredible psychotherapist who

explores Shadow work and you know our

Shadow Self Etc and I think through his

work and then finding many other

teachers many other mentors along the

way

um just through books mainly books and

self-study I was able to finally have

language for the things that I was

experiencing internally so I think it

helped that I did have that Foundation

off already being quite a self-aware

person but now having language for my

behavior and I think just through

different practices even

reading something about why you know

lying to yourself is a form of

self-betrayal it meant that every time

that I was in a situation and I could

feel myself about to lie I would kind of

challenge myself to not and to just say

something different or to just say what

I actually mean so I think it's been a

combination of self-study

um reading tuning into the

self-awareness I already had but using

it in just a different way and actually

stepping into the arena and practicing

so I think that that has helped me kind

of developed my sense of self over time

what about writing and writing writing

has always helped but you know what's

interesting I found especially in those

10 years

I would write in my journal as if

someone was going to read it so I would

lie what were you lying about in your

diary

oh that's a good question I was lying

about

how I really felt about my relationship

so I was writing as if my boyfriend at

the time would read it

um

so I wasn't being completely honest

about how unhappy I was

I wasn't being honest about

cheating in our relationship when I was

drunk

um I wasn't being honest about my

relationship with alcohol

I wasn't being honest about how I really

felt about one particular family member

who I really wanted to heal things with

um

but it felt weird because

we we didn't speak about emotional

things in my family so there was a lot

of resistance around medding mending

that relationship even though I knew

exactly what I needed to do

um why do you speak about in past tense

which part by that family member mending

it you speak of it as if it's past tense

what exactly did I say just um you're

referring to it as if you haven't mended

it I haven't

right I haven't and I wrote that entry

it's in the journal that I found the

other day thank you for pointing that

out

um

I haven't it's been seven years since I

wrote that

so maybe now it's bothering you can see

it in your face really yeah

it does it does she was on

that list of amends

that I had to make back in 2016. and I

made amends with everyone on that list

apart from her and I see her quite often

and there'll be times where I feel like

I want to say something because there's

not even anything specific that happened

it's just the way that I was behaving at

the time that I was in the height of my

of my destruction and

she had just moved from Zimbabwe to here

and I was always her favorite cousin and

we were so close and she was so excited

to see me and to see me after all of

these years

and when she came she didn't meet the me

that she remembered

and I noticed that very early on

and now we're much older seven years

later I can still see that there's a

part of her that feels

hot in some way and I know that there's

something that I can do and say to sort

of break that

but I just there's a lot of resistance

around it because in my family

they're just certain conversations we

don't have but I've been starting to

have those conversations with some

family members but she's just the one

person that I haven't done it with yet

why

I think there's almost a fear of the

unknown

of what our relationship will look like

Beyond this and I know we can sound mad

because someone listening to this might

think just have the conversation I'm a

huge advocate for conversations that are

uncomfortable

but when it comes to this for whatever

reason

there's a fear of the unknown even

though I know that the unknown is going

to be

potentially a stronger relationship

so you could say there's always a

an element of self-sabotage when it

comes to this but it's a fear of some

kind of unknown around that

any advice well I I mean I struggle with

the same thing so let's not pretend that

I'm perfect in this Arena but what's

some of the advice that sometimes helps

reframe the decision is you know taking

myself to the to my deathbed and

thinking about the decisions I would if

this was if I was laying there and this

was the last moments of my life would I

what decision would I wish I would have

made on this particular situation yeah

that's quite clarifying and it also it

also cuts out this kind of unconscious

feeling that I think we all have that

there'll always be time to do it yes we

can always do it next year yeah but we

don't live forever unfortunately right

we live under the illusion that we do

that's why there's a sand timer on there

it's just a nice reminder to me that I'm

actually not infinite I'm finally and so

that gives me a little bit of urgency to

make um to live in a less Petty Way in a

more a way that's more aligned with like

my inner truth and my own values so yeah

what would your you know if this were

if you would touch wood diagnosed with

something today and you you said you

know what I'm gonna get my home in order

um

would you have that conversation I would

absolutely have that conversation and

you know what I'm grateful very grateful

that you and I have just had this

exchange because when I found that

journal a few days ago and I saw that

entry saying I need to speak to her

I wrote I'm going to do this this week

and I finished the entry with

if I don't do this I'll never know what

our relationship can be I'm going to do

this this week and it was seven years

ago

I'm gonna [ __ ] do it this week

you're gonna get a message from me

saying

she no longer talks to me she's blocked

me on Instagram

that's what the unknown was about

wow my goodness and you know again what

you've just done

is hold a mirror up to side because I

can feel a sort of tightness in my chest

but I also feel kind of like a relief in

my shoulders at the same time so it

feels quite conflicting but it makes

sense

um

because you've just held a mirror up to

me because in every other area of my

life whether it's business or life or

writing I'm very sure I can have any

type of conversation I'm very assured

and confident and know exactly what I

need to do but it's amazing how in

certain areas there's still that sort of

childlike or I can't I can't do this

it's too much that's too big

that's why having someone even in a

brief exchange that can hold a mirror up

to that part of you and just ask just

one question without asserting or trying

to

put forward a specific thing you should

do

um just a question that can kind of make

you think oh

I hadn't actually thought about that

I mean I've got those things in my life

too so like of course I have I've got

conversations that I just we all we put

off for various reasons and yeah I think

one of the things as well that I that I

often ask myself is like if you get too

tied up in the outcome and it all come

becomes outcome dependent what are they

going to say how's it going to be you

probably never make the decision but if

it becomes based on like

why do I need to do this for myself yeah

irrespective of outcome you know what I

mean then you start living more in your

truth yeah and the second point I was

going to say is that tightness in your

chest it's an interesting thing because

whenever we find ourselves in those

situations where something is making us

uncomfortable or you know you described

as a tightness in the chest yeah the

tightness in the chest is not gonna

um doesn't leave us because we ignore it

it just it it's like this little

Insidious Force inside of us that will

lead us up in little ways and we think

often as I have in my past that if I

just suppress or compartmentalize that

right it will that's the best way to

deal with it I think the way that we

release whatever that tightness and the

tightness in the chest is such a good

indicator it means we've got work to do

right right because think about that

analogy like that conversation didn't

put the tightness in your chest the

tightness was already there yeah the

tension was already there yes you just

it just came to the surface yes

so the way to never have the tightness

again is to release

the the thing the thing the young

addressed yeah

one of the things I've heard you talk

about a lot is your your journey and

your

evolving relationship with sex and

sexuality and how that changed from when

you were very young through the period

when you were drinking a lot

um till today can you talk to me about

that Evolution and what you've learned

about those topics

that might benefit me yes absolutely

so

I'm going to

sort of keep referring to my sobriety in

that period of my life because it was so

transformative

and it revealed so much to me so much

that I could have never imagined at the

time so something that also happened

when I got sober I think this was about

a year into my sobriety

I realized just how much sexual shame I

was holding so much of it and I

initially sort of wanted to fix it

wanted to do something about it what are

some surface level things that I can do

what can I read what can I sort of dive

into how can I deal with it from where I

am now as a 25 year old but I quickly

realized that I actually had to trace it

back to see where it even comes from and

I realized just like so many things it

did come from my childhood being raised

in a Christian home

I learn again not directly more so

indirectly that being a sexual being was

not something that was of God it was not

something that was supposed to be a part

of who I am pleasure was never discussed

sex was never discussed even

Intimacy in general I never saw my

parents hold hands I never saw my

parents hold hands I never saw them kiss

I never saw them hug I never saw any

sort of affection but I knew that they

loved each other I knew that they cared

about each other but affection and

intimacy I just never saw that Not For a

Moment

did you see that growing up

um

it's a really interesting one because

I'd say I'd say yes and no so I say yes

because below the age of maybe eight

maybe I could've got memories of that

and then above the age of 10

um no and I call my parents by their

first names okay I really struggled with

with intimacy because of the exact same

reasons right even the word best friend

made me cringe until the age still kind

of makes me cringe now

like when people would say it or call me

their best friend this is part of me

like Steven meets like it's just a bit

even boyfriend would make me like ah

prison

me too that's why when I found the word

partner I was like okay yeah

stand next to each other we don't

oh my goodness so when I sort of wanted

to really understand where a lot of the

sexual shame was stemming from or just

more so even outside of sex intimacy

intimacy feeling very disconnected to

other people when it came to intimacy

but also from myself

I realized that I could only be

expressive as a sexual being if I was

drunk or if I was high if I was in that

place where of course my inhibitions are

low but I had no insecurities I didn't

have to feel like I'm doing something

wrong I didn't have to feel like my

pleasure was wrong but then when I got

sober all of those things came to the

surface and then I I had to look that in

the eye so that also became something

that I started sharing over time as well

as sort of sharing my journey with

sobriety I then started sharing the

things that were revealed as a byproduct

of me getting sober and sexual shame was

a huge one was a big part of that my

relationship with sex has evolved a lot

yeah over over time I think it was early

in my early years influenced by porn yes

for many people so me too that's the way

I went into the game in trying to be

those those male porn stars right

and I think over time and I think

there's this wider issue in our society

specifically I've got to be honest with

men yes

um

what they think that what they think sex

is in terms of this kind of

very aggressive often dominating

transactional

um encounter yeah and then there's you

know again I'm just I'm just talking

freely I don't give a [ __ ] whatever

please do please but I'm seeing a lot in

my in my close friends they're all in

relate they're often in relationships

not all of them where they're having

problems with

their sexual relationship with their

partner they're basically saying things

to me and I'd say this is crazy I'd say

75 to 80 of my male friends are saying

my partner doesn't want to have sex she

doesn't like having sex yeah and I was

there at one point too my partner said

that to me at 1.2 yeah and I took it on

face value I thought they don't like sex

what I came to learn

is that wasn't true but that what what

I'd learned to be sex and what I was

bringing as sex this kind of aggressive

you know whatever

was not yes the language that they spoke

right and I feel like I'm surrounded by

men that need to start seeing sex as a

language because then you can ask

yourself well actually she's speaking

Spanish and I'm speaking English that's

why it's not she doesn't like English

she just doesn't she speaks a different

language yeah I mean yes that's a lot

I'm just dumping that on YouTube no that

resonates so and I'm I'm really glad

that you said this because I think

you're speaking something that is on so

many people's minds or something that

they've just never really put language

to and a big part of my

Awakening if you will and really

addressing that sexual shame is because

I also learned sex from porn at 10 years

old 10 years old so by the time that I

had sex for the first time when I was 14

it was very much like a porn performance

to put it very simply and I speak to so

many people men and women about this

very specific thing a lot of us learn

that we should perform that sex should

be driven by orgasm and ejaculation and

this sort of production if you will

which is not actually accurate for most

people when it comes to what really

actually feels pleasurable especially

for women so I started to realize when I

got sober that every time that I was

having sex for example I faked every

single orgasm it was all a perform I

didn't know much about my body because

I'd learned from porn and because the

men that I was with had also learned

from porn we were just in a performance

and no one's actually talking about it

right so in time times when I was in

relationships and I made myself think I

don't want to have sex I don't want to

have sex anymore it actually was not

that I didn't want to have this type of

pornified sex that's what I actually

meant so what you just said is really

important and I realized that's when I

found tantric sex actually yeah that's

when I found tantric sex around 2018

because I realized that I had always

felt like sex was being done to me yes

that I was not a part of it and that is

how most women feel I I felt like I

needed to apologize

yeah because that's what that's what I

came to learn yeah was that the the

reason why the person I was with had

turned around to me and said I don't

like having sex is and when we got

talking about it after I acted like I

mean let me be clear the first time she

said that I did not understand my little

Neanderthal monkey brain went uh like I

was emasculated by it yeah it made me

feel what is this something that I was I

didn't know of course ended up breaking

up but this person got back with this

person a year later

when I was maybe a bit more mature I

apologized and I said I want to have a

conversation and I also said to her that

I'm going to be here regardless of

whether we have sex or not yes and then

she could she had a safe enough space to

start talking to me about it and what I

discovered is she'd been with

should I add three previous boyfriends

over the course of seven years

her view of sex was this person comes

and takes from you treats you like this

object and he was with him for five

years treats you like an object takes

what they want from you and then he was

actually going and cheating on her as

well right so Not only was he taking he

was then like hurting her and that cycle

just repeated her relationship with what

sex is was really really toxic she

didn't like that yes she didn't want

that anymore yes and that's what she and

me probably referred to as this word sex

so it was kind of like learning a new

language of sex and what it actually is

she went from the place of like I don't

have sex anymore

to absolutely loving to have sex yeah I

didn't think it was possible I thought

if they don't like sex dump them yes you

know I'm gonna go find someone else

right that will let me take yes and you

know what you you've articulated that so

beautifully in terms of

sex being a language and it's going to

look different for every single person

because something that I realized is

that I could tell when I was with a man

sexually I could tell if they were sort

of

if it was like a script almost like a

play-by-play like this is exactly the

method we do this we do that switch into

this switch into that it wasn't sort of