shouldn't raise your children to believe

that they can be Beyonce. The chances

are they can't.

Will Storr is an award-winning author of

six critically acclaimed books. His

ideas are disruptive, challenging, and

life-changing. And some of them will

make you feel incredibly uncomfortable.

People don't like to talk about this

stuff. 99% of self-help books never

mention genes. They want to promote the

idea of well, I can be who you want to

be. But a huge amount of who we are is

who we were born as. That myth of you

have full control over yourself as a

human being, that's the problem. It's

not about embracing your flaws. It's

about accepting your flaws.

Our lives are full of status pursuit.

The more status that you earn, the

better everything else gets. That was

true 10,000 years ago, it's true today.

The brain is highly attuned to where we

sit in a pecking order. The lower we are

down in that pecking order, the more

unhealthy we became. If you take two

smokers, the one higher up is less

likely to die of a smoking-related

disease than the one lower down. That's

mental. It matters massively.

How do we advance in the status game?

There are kind of three general types of

status games that we can play.

First game is the

Without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a

CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if

you are, then please keep this to

yourself.

Will,

first of all, thank you for being here.

Um

take me right back then to your early

years, cuz I think when when I was

reading through your different books

here,

throughout them you have glimpses of

your own perspective, and it hints back

to what I read about your your early

years. Um

so, take me back right back to the

start, you know, before the age of

let's say 12.

Mhm.

Okay, so yeah, um

I was brought up in Tunbridge Wells in

Kent.

Um

middle-class family, very Catholic. Um

it was quite

Victorian, um

strict, superstitious, religious

upbringing. Not the happiest upbringing,

I have to say. Why? Um because my

parents were very strict. My father was

very strict, especially. Um and uh they

were very much in the grip of their kind

of Catholic belief system, which I just

didn't never like always baffled me even

as a kid. Like, what

you know,

can you believe this stuff? I don't want

to a Catholic school. So, so and I was

quite uh

I I was probably a difficult If you were

to ask them, they'd say I was a

difficult child.

Um because I was pushing against that

all the time, you know, I thought it was

crazy. I wasn't very good at authority

and rules. So, it was a bad fit, I would

say. Um and I think that's what's, you

know, one of the things that that's kind

of driven

my interests into adulthood. My you

know, my my my second book, The

Heretics, was looking at

why do otherwise smart people believe

end up believing these crazy things? Cuz

my parents are smart people,

but um yeah, you know, they believed in

heaven, hell, Satan, all of that stuff.

I I think that's how my childhood has

informed my interests as an adult,

trying to figure out

how how that happens.

In your in your book Selfie, you you

talk a lot about self-esteem Mhm. and

the role that plays. What was your Give

me the context of your how your

self-esteem was shaped in those early

years?

Uh well, um

how it was shaped in those early years,

I guess it was

poorly would be the answer. Um I think

the

you know, because

my behavior was not great, the

continual message I would get from

teachers and parents was that you're

you know, you're a bad person, you're

going to end up in prison, you're going

to end up in care.

Um uh

yeah, so so so so so there was very

little kind of positive feedback in my

in my childhood, which I think is

that that causes damage that you're

never going to get over, I believe.

Do you think you you never get over that

damage?

Yes, because I think, you know, we're

all born with a certain kind of

personality, with a certain genome, and

that that's not fate. That doesn't

define who you're going to be forever.

Um but but but it sets you on a certain

course. It makes you vulnerable to a

certain kind of mindset. Um and you

know, it I think a good childhood, a

good upbringing can

you know, correct that to a certain

degree, but a bad one can can set it on

a sort of negative course. And I'm quite

a neurotic person. I'm anxious. I I've

always worried a lot. So, so when if you

take that kind of natural personality

type, high neuroticism, and add into

that a

childhood which kind of reinforces that

sense that

the world is dangerous, that people are

out to get you, all of that stuff, that

that that that that that reality isn't

safe. I I I

and then, you know, what happens is your

brain is still being formed really up

until you in your mid-20s. You know,

that that it's in your mid-20s when when

that that when that kind of learning

process is

um uh stop. And so, it's very hard and

probably I would argue probably

impossible to reverse

18 years of

that kind of

feedback

once it's happened, because that's those

are the years in which your brain is

learning how the world works. And and

so, yeah, so I I I don't think it's

fixable. That that's one of the the

ongoing um

conversations or debates or things that

I've kind of been chewing over from

doing this podcast and and listening to

to people from all walks of life that

have achieved amazing things that still

have um underlying trauma or sort of

self stories that are controlling their

their their life and their behavior. And

I I I spent a long time talking to

people about whether you can ever truly

eradicate some of these traumas. They're

like the puppet master that's in the

back room controlling your your biases

and all these things. And my conclusion

over the last literally weeks has been

that we can diminish the power that our

early traumas have over us, but they're

always going to be there.

And is that is that where you find find

yourself but in terms of your belief

that we can diminish the power of those

stories, but they'll always be there?

Absolutely. That That's exactly right.

That's what I believe. Exactly. Yeah,

that we can definitely diminish their

power.

And

you know, I'm 47 now, and it still

amazes me that you still you never stop

learning, and you never stop learning

about yourself. You never stop learning

about things you get wrong. And got to

stop doing that, you know. It's overly

simplistic to think of consciousness as

this battle between reason and emotion.

Um uh

but but but there is something like that

going on. Like, you know,

our emotionality is usually in charge of

what we're thinking and what we're

doing, you know, we respond emotionally,

and that voice in your head then tells a

story about what you're feeling. And

usually it's to justify that emotion.

It's to say, yes, you were right to feel

like that. You were right to respond in

anger

and hostility at that person. And then

the next day you think, oh, maybe I

wasn't.

You know, so so um I think what we call

what used to call reason, that

reasonable voice in your head actually

often isn't reasonable. It's just

justifying

and um validating your initial emotional

response, which is, you know, sometimes

right, sometimes wrong. So, so I think

what you're doing when you're learning,

for me anyway, is you're is you're

learning actually

what I mean,

I mean, almost a parenting yourself to

to turn that voice in your head into a

someone that isn't going to be a harsh

judge or

uh on the other extreme, someone who's

just going to accept and validate and

defend everything every behavior you do,

every thought you have, every mistake

you make you make. You're looking for

that that balance all the time. And then

you're looking to spot

I think you're looking to spot those

occasions on which you're making the

same mistake over and over again, you

know.

Have you got a harsh judge in your head?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. I have. I I you know, I'm so I'm

self-employed. I've been a I've been a

writer for, you know, without an

employer for 20 years. You you kind of I

think you have to have a harsh judge

to get yourself out of bed, to get

yourself in front of the computer, to do

8 hours plus work a day. Um so so so I

think to It's kind of weird. I think I

think to achieve any anything

significant, you've got to There's got

to be a harsh

harshness to

I'm just trying to think whether judge

is the right

right word. Like, I read recently that

the ideal parent is kind of firm, but

also kind and caring and understanding.

And I and I think that's what

I think that's If that's the ideal

parent, I would think it was really that

that that that's that's the ideal of who

we should be inside our own heads,

really. You got to have that balance.

Um and I think you can you can go you

can go wrong

in either direction.

Your book Selfie.

Yeah. Um what was the

I mean, I love the name. It was very of

the time in 2017 as well. Last year.

Um what was the inspiration behind

writing this book?

Right. So, the book before that was

called The Heretics, and The Heretics

was, as I said before, it's going to be

inspired by this idea of why do how do

smart people end up believing

crazy things? And so, that that book was

all about when we have these stubborn

beliefs that kind of that that are

irrational, that we don't let go of. So,

I was hanging out with Holocaust

deniers. I was hanging out with

creationists, UFO believers, people like

this.

Um and then

in the promotion for that, I was asked

again and again and again by people, so

what makes people change their minds?

You're saying that people can never

change their minds. And I didn't have an

answer to that question. I kind of have

to bluff through it. So, I thought,

that's, you know,

I don't understand that. So,

um maybe I should try and find out. So,

I was a journalist at the time as a day

job,

and so I started interviewing lots of

people who changed their minds, like in

big dramatic kind of powerful ways.

Um one of those guys, um, was this uh

amazing psychologist called Professor

Roy Baumeister.

Um, he spent his kind of early

professional career in the self-esteem

era of the '80s, you know, when and this

is the era I was brought up to, when

everything was about self-esteem, when

it was all about that the kind of

message out there was, "If you want to

be successful, just love yourself.

You're amazing. You're fantastic. You

can do anything that you want." You

know, it was Whitney Houston, um, "The

greatest love of all is yourself." It

was it was that kind of era. And I

remember it from school. I remember

like, you know, the teacher saying to

me, "The problem with you, Will, is you

just have low self-esteem." And they

used to call self-esteem a social

vaccine. And if you if you loved

yourself, it would mean that you would

be more successful, you'd be happier,

you'd have a better marriage, and you

know, uh, in America they they thought

that self-esteem was going to solve

homelessness,

um, the gang culture, um,

teenage parenthood was a big moral panic

of the time. They thought it was going

to cure that. So, and he was like,

"Well, is it true? Is this actually

true?" And so, they looked into it and

they found actually that there was no

evidence that that any of this was true.

That that every study that quoted it as

being true just referenced another

study. And he he he went on this

breadcrumb trail of studies. They were

all just quoting each other and there

was no actual evidence that any of it

was true. And they just they they

actually tested to see whether that

self-esteem myth was true or not. Um,

and it wasn't um, it wasn't true. Um, it

was it was originally based on this idea

that they this this observation that,

um,

school children who did well in exams

also had high self-esteem. So, they

assumed that having high self-esteem

made you good at exams. But actually,

they had high self-esteem because they'd

done good in their exams. It was it was

the other way around. It's kind of it's

obvious in retrospect, but that's what

they you know, so that that was the

error they made. Correlation causation,

that old chestnut. Um, so so so he, um,

published this study and the initial

response was just, you know, it was

absolutely torn to pieces.

Um, it was either ignored or attacked.

Um, but slowly he was proven to be

right. And so, when I was I I I wrote a

profile of Baumeister and, um,

you know, he was a fascinating guy. Um,

and then what what I realized was that

this idea had, um,

not just changed a person, but it

changed the culture. Like, the whole

culture of the West, Britain, America,

Canada, and lots of Europe,

when I was growing up in the '80s and

'90s, it was obsessed with this idea and

it's just was just wrong. It's

completely wrong. So, that was the

that's the heart of Selfie. It was this

like this this idea of an inner

How did selfie culture happen? How did

we become so self-obsessed? And and the

self-esteem movement is was a big part

of that story and it's the kind of it's

the it's the kind of central story of

the book. Chapter zero. Yeah. Um, the

dying self

was a was quite difficult to read. Ah,

okay. Yeah. I thought it was a very, um,

you know, you explore topics like

suicide and, um,

your own sort of self-doubt and things

like that and, um, your own suicidal

ideation at times.

Why did Why did you choose to start the

book in that way?

I suppose I wanted to start the book

there to show,

you know, why this matters. You know,

where where I ended up with in the book

was

that this idea that we live that we are

in the West individualists. Yeah, you

know, we see the world as made up of

individual pieces and parts and we are

individually responsible for our fates.

We are individually responsible for our

success and our failure. And there's

lots of good things to say about that,

you know, it's it's an extremely

motivating way of

organizing your thoughts, organizing

your life.

Um, you know, I am responsible for me

and and I will take care of me. Um, but

it's also kind of savage, you know, and,

um, it it it it means, you know, that

that kind of Western myth we have is

that, um,

you know, that you can do anything that

you want, just put your mind to it, you

can achieve it. That that that kind of

mindset. Um, but but very often we fail.

And so, if it's true that you're

responsible for your success, then it

only logically follows that you're also,

um, responsible for your failure. Um,

and so, um,

these individualistic ideas accelerated

in the 1980s and that's because of a

variety of things. It was the

self-esteem movement partly, but the

self-esteem movement became successful

because we because of the Thatcher

Reagan revolution is my argument,

neoliberalism. That we changed the

economies of the West. We changed the

game. You know, before the 1980s we were

much more collective. It was much more,

um,

you know, socialist even in America the

top rate of tax was 90%. You know, it's

it's extraordinary. Uh, um, so so but

and and then the economy started going

wrong in the '70s, so

the neoliberal revolution happened and

and the idea, the central idea that, you

know, Reagan and Thatcher pursued was

we're going to increase competition

wherever we can. To reduce the social

safety net,

privatize everything. Just everyone's

got to be competitive. And it changed

who we are, you know, it it

when you change the rules of the game of

life, you change the people who play

that game, which is what my latest book

is about really.

And so, we became more, um, competitive

as a people. And and what's what

psychologists find is a major study that

found that since, um,

the you know, the onset of

neoliberalism, levels of perfectionism

have increased massively in the UK, in

America,

and in Canada.

Uh, and, um, perfectionism is implicated

in suicidal ideation, in eating

disorders, in steroid abuse, and, you

know, and self-harm, and so on and so on

and so on. So, so that's why I wanted to

begin the book there really to show why

this matters. You know, this this it

isn't just a kind of abstract academic

exploration of the self.

You know, I wanted to begin with this is

how it affects people.

If perfectionism can be quite an

insidious, um,

issue in Western cultures where we're

getting more individualistic, what is a

better approach do you think to take for

What is a better message to share with

society in the world about, um, about

that?

Um, I I I think, you know, I like the

idea of you know, I I I I think the idea

that I kind of develop is

in Selfie partly it's about

self-acceptance rather than self-love. I

think self-love, um, is that you know, I

used to be a massive fan of Big Brother

when Big Brother was on.

And and there was always a thing in Big

Brother where, um, somebody would behave

completely obnoxiously. They'd be like

rude, aggressive, just deeply

unpleasant. And they they would always

defend themselves in the same way.

They'd go, "Well, I'm just being me.

That's just me. And if you don't like

me, you know." And and I think that's

the that's the self-esteem movement

talking. It's like I'm my I'm going to

be my authentic self and if you can't

handle that, that's on you. And I think

that's wrong, you know, you know, we're

a social animal. We've we we we have

evolved to exist cooperatively. And I

think when individualism, I think

there's a lot to say in its defense, but

when it goes too far, that's where it

becomes it becomes that kind of screw

you

mindset. So, I think self-acceptance is

different than self-love.

Self-acceptance is I'm flawed, broken

animal, uh, you know, as we all are.

And, you know,

a little like what we're talking about

earlier on, it's about being that harsh

but loving parent rather than that

rather than being your own defense

lawyer, you know, being being that kind

of harsh but loving parent. And being

accepted, you know, having this

acceptance that you are a flawed and

limited animal. Like, you know, you

you shouldn't raise your children to

believe that they can be be Beyoncé if

they want to be Beyoncé cuz the chances

are they can't. She's like an

extraordinarily talented and driven

individual. She's the one in a billion,

you know. So, uh,

you know,

so I think that's an unhealthy message

to by which to raise our children and

also, you know, talk to ourselves. It is

much more about understanding our our

strengths, our flaws, and kind of

finding the right games to play, to find

that that little corner of the world in

which we can feel,

um, of value. I think that's that's what

we should be trying to do.

Had your parents told you that you were

Beyoncé and had those schools told you

that you were Beyoncé,

would you have been happier, do you

think? Um,

I mean, I was sometimes told that that I

could succeed at school, but I just

wasn't applying myself and it's such a

waste. It's such a waste. Yeah.

Um,

but it's so weird, the school thing.

I mean, I I have to say I think I went

to a really bad school.

Um, it was a comprehensive school. Um,

you know, you hear these stories about

teachers that inspire you and I wish it

wasn't for this teacher. I never had

that teacher. They were all just really

bored and resentful. I remember going

into class and there's one teacher who

would just open his folder, "Where were

we?" He'd

he'd read from his folder for about 50

minutes and that would be the history

lesson. You know, and that was the

school I went to. It was miserable. And

I and I'm I always wanted to be a

writer.

And I was always in trouble. I was

always this sort of problem student. And

I had this English teacher who was quite

nice called Mr. Lanaway. And I thought,

"Well, you know, I'm going to write

start writing short stories in my spare

time and I'm going to give them to my

English teacher." It's just a way of

getting like, "Look, you know, I've

written this thing." And so, I gave him

a couple and I think I gave him number

three,

you know, after written on a third

weekend, thinking that I that he was In

my head he was thinking, "Oh, Will's,

you know, William has found this thing

that he's actually applying himself to.

How amazing." And he said to me,

"You know, this is all just extra work

for me, don't you?" Like that. He he

kind of scolded me for giving him extra

work to do. So, I stopped I stopped

writing those, you know, short stories.

And I just think if I if I if I'd have

actually been encouraged to be I was

never encouraged to be a writer by

my school or, you know, I I wrote a

school magazine and that that caused me

all kinds of trouble as well.

So, so so I was I never actually had any

encouragement and I I I do kind of think

if I was actually encouraged, um, to be

a writer, I would have probably got

there sooner and probably been a better

writer today. On that point of Beyoncé

though, it seems to me that if someone

had turned around to you and said, "You

you are Beyoncé and you can do anything.

You could be an amazing writer." It

seems to me that that that actually

might have helped. Yes. Yeah. Yes, but

but that's what I mean about identifying

your strengths. Like I think for me

writing was a strength, but nobody ever

And and if that was identified

And if somebody said to me, "God, you

know, you should carry on writing

these."

Literally, if one person one adult said

to me, "These short stories are you

know, they show real promise. You should

carry on writing these." It would have

blown my mind. I would have got I would

have definitely carried on. Um but I

just stopped, you know, I just stopped.

Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh

uh uh uh uh so yeah, but that's what I

mean is I I think the mistake is Um

somebody you know, in the research for

Selfie, this Harvard psychologist Brian

Little said it's the myth of unlimited

control. That myth of you can you can

you know, you have full control over

your yourself as a human being and that

means that you can do anything. That's

the problem, you know, that's the

problem. Uh and but actually I think

what what what you should do is identify

what is this person

passionate about, you know, and what are

they actually what they actually good

at. And if and if and if and if somebody

saw or promising me as a journalist or a

writer then that that's what they they

should have encouraged me in, but it was

actually just a battle.

In um in the in the chapter the good

self in that book chapter four, you talk

about um the different forces that are

controlling our behavior.

Mhm. And uh it made me think I've you

know, that I've also had this this

ongoing thought about how control of

of my life I

over what the forces are that are

actually controlling my life cuz we tend

to believe obviously, as we would from

this first-person view, that I'm making

my decisions.

But when I It sounds quite I don't care,

I'm going to say it. When I reflect on

the stories I've heard from men

regarding

their behavior

before they've ejaculated and after

they've ejaculated

it is pretty it's And I actually said

this in like podcast number four when no

one was actually listening and it was

just me and under the stairs in

Manchester. I said the change that I saw

in my behavior or how I felt before and

after ejaculation is extreme. And I

watched Rogan talk about this. He

described it as being

before ejaculation at the back of the

bus and you're just being swung

around the He said it's foggy, there's

papers everywhere and then it and then

it says post-ejaculation, it's like you

zoom forward onto the wheel of the bus

and go, "Oh, what was going on

there?" Yeah. And you gain back control.

Yeah. And just this um it for me that

was one of the clearest signs that my

decision-making as is not as intentional

as I thought it was.

Yeah. Um and you talk about that kind of

thing a little bit in that chapter. You

talk about a study where um men are

asked um a variety of different

questions while they're masturbating.

Mhm. Can you can you share that study

and also like what you learned from it

about the way that we make our

decisions?

Well, I haven't that was I haven't read

about that study for a good 5 years now,

but I think it was something about they

were asked a series of questions about

um

Were they asked a series of questions

about what they were doing in certain

Yeah, it's like their sexual preferences

or something. Would you would you be

attracted to an animal? Would you be

That's it. Yeah. Quite disturbing.

Yeah. And I I think before they'd

masturbated their their answers were

much more extreme in the direction of

yes, I would have sex with an animal.

Yes, I would pressure somebody into

having sex than they would after um

masturbation. And I think most men can

can read that study and go

you can relate a little bit to Not not

that I'm saying that you know, most men

would have sex with an animal,

obviously. But but but how our how our

um

how our thinking is different. And and

and you know, I I and and and I love

studies like that because it I I feel

like it

You know, when we when we when we when

we when we when we feel a different way,

we do almost become a different person.

Like I remember writing in Selfie about

um you know, when I'm trying to lose

weight again and on Monday morning, I'm

absolutely resolute. It's like I'm going

to

keep my calories down. I'm going to

exercise every day. I am a machine. I'm

a stoic. I'm athletic. You know, that's

who I am. But by Friday evening, I'm

just like, "Ah, sorry, I'm going to go

back. I

I need to have some chips." You know,

and it's like it's not just that you

feel a different way. It's almost that

you've become a different person, by

which I mean you have a different

personality. You're much more loose and

happy and good to be around on Friday

than you are on Monday if you're like

that. Uh but you have a different value

system. You On Monday, I value this set

of things. I value discipline and order

and structure. And on Friday evening, I

value fun and laughter and pleasure. So

it's it's it's so it's so it is that we

almost

you know, I think pre- and

post-ejaculation, we almost become a

different person. Monday Monday morning

versus Friday night, we become different

people. So I think that you know, we we

we're so fluid in

in who we are depending on how we're

feeling. We don't want to be there. No,

it's not how we think of ourselves. We

think of ourselves as a yeah, certain

kind of person. Yeah, with with this as

a certain

boxed-in set of values and behaviors. I

think you know, there's probably

somewhere above 50% of people listening

that can relate to that Monday issue of

you know, on Monday I am you know, a

Greek god and I am

disciplined and I am everything I'll

become everything I want to be on by you

know, by next week. Um and then

something happens. How does

I would be remiss if I didn't ask. What

can you tell us about how to stop or how

to maintain or be consistent

as our Monday selves? Is there anything

you've learned about the psychology

there that might help us to be our

Monday selves come Friday?

So in in Selfie, I write about um how

important it is to change our

environment rather than try rather than

change try and change ourself. Mhm. Uh I

I I I I I I I I I and the kind of exact

the the kind of story that I tell is I

call it the the lizard and the iceberg

where if you take a lizard from the

desert and pop it on an iceberg, it's

going to be a very unhappy lizard. If

you put it back in the desert, it's

going to be happy and thriving and

wonderful and nothing has changed in the

lizard. It's the environment that's

changed. And I and I and I and I think

part of being an individualist and is

that we look into into ourselves, to our

behavior to um explain the causes of our

behavior. But actually, you know, so

much of

of

of our behavior is controlled by what's

going on around us by by our

environment. You know, and the reason we

feel you know, Friday on Friday is cuz

cuz it's Friday and that has a cultural

resonance. That is Friday night. Yeah, I

think thank it's Friday and and

we're on 5 days a week so we feel

different. Um so so so I think a lot of

it is about changing our environment.

You know,

there is a lot to say about you know, if

you take yourself to the gym, you've

changed your environment. Um if you um

if you can check

certainly with things like weight loss,

I mean it's a lesson that I never seem

to learn, but do not have that stuff in

the house. Oh my god.

It is guaranteed that you will eat it.

Um you know, it's it's it's a drug uh

and and so I so I so I think

I I I I I think maintain your

environment to maintain yourself. You

know, I I I think that's that that's one

of the one of the key takeaways that

I've learned.

How to stay alive in the age of

perfectionism?

How does one stay alive? One of the

interesting things in that chapter was

um you kind of debunk this idea that

alcoholism for example, and a lot of

these things that you know, that I've

spoken to guests about on this podcast

that they've suffered with um don't

necessarily stem from having an unhappy

childhood.

Mhm. I've got a friend that you know,

he's very public about the fact that he

became an alcoholic and um I I guess I

believed it was because of traumatic

early events. I I tended to believe that

that was the case, but you debunk that

quite clearly.

Um and and kind of assert that

personality is the causal factor in in

most of our predispositions. Yeah, I I

think one of the things that I've that

I've learned um

well, that certainly that from research

in that book was the was the incredible

power of personality and the incredible

power of the

of the of our genes. Um it's really

people don't like to talk about this

stuff um because it it it it they they

feel it's disempowering. So whenever you

read a self-help book most of them, 99%

of self-help books never mention genes

because it's unhelpful. They want to

promote that idea of 100% self-control.

I can be whoever I want to be. Um but

but but but but genes are so important.

Uh as I said, it's not that they dictate

who we are or you know, or um you're

you're you're born with a kind of

blueprint and that's all you're ever

going to be. Um

But but you are born with a certain kind

of genome, you know, with a certain

level of

likely neuroticism

openness to experience, extraversion, um

agreeableness, you know, how how kind of

happy or kind of angry or competitive

you are and so on.

And so you're born kind of with a

certain prevailing wind and then your

childhood experiences mostly um will um

do the rest of that wiring up. So by the

time you're in your in in your kind of

20s, you're kind of who you are. Like

not 100% cuz still traumatic experiences

can break you to pieces, you know,

you're you know, lots of things can

change, but you're kind of who you are.

As I said, you know, people don't like

that idea because it really goes against

our individualist kind of credo of you

can be Beyoncé if you want to be. But it

is nevertheless true that that a huge

amount of who we are is just how we were

who who we were born as. You know, and

I've got that addictive personality. I

was an alcoholic. I haven't I I had to

give up drinking when I was 26 cuz I'd

lost control of how much I was drinking

and I still struggle with kind of you

know, sugar now. I I I've swapped booze

for sugar is is my problematic behavior,

which is much easier to manage. Um so so

so I get it and and and but but but

yeah, it's it's not it's

I think part of the fact that we're

these storytelling animals um

I think since 70s, since it's probably

this well, even the 60s, we've had this

kind of therapy culture which wants to

go archaeological digging in our pasts

for the causes of our

um all of our problems. And you know, I

I think there's

there is a certain amount of um truth to

that stuff. Like I I'm sure our

childhoods affect us.

Um but but um there are we tend to blame

everything on our childhoods, everything

on our parents. I think alcoholism is

one of those things that

is mostly genetic. You know, you've

either got that problem with addiction

or you don't.

Can it Can it Can it be accelerated by

trauma though? Because you know, when I

when I speak to psychologists, they

often talk about it being a form of

escapism

in many ways and other drugs and you

know, other self-medications being a

form of like trying to escape pain or

trauma. Definitely. Yeah,

I think how how to think about it is

that it's um

you can have a vulnerability to it.

Yeah. Um and that's the genetic

component. Um and if something bad

happens to you, then you're much more

likely to kind of fall into that

versus someone else who doesn't Yeah,

versus who doesn't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. On that point of storytelling, you

mentioned storytelling there in our um

in our narrative. Your your book in 2019

was about storytelling. I having worked

in marketing was very compelled to to

read this book for the probably, you

know, we talked before we start

recording that a lot of people will see

a book about with the word storytelling

on the front of it and think that they

can use it from a marketing capacity or

in business sense.

What have you learnt about how people

can tell great stories in the context of

business and marketing?

Yeah, well,

so quite quite a lot. I teach a I I

teach business storytelling Section 4,

which is a American EdTech

organization. So I So I do a

course there on in the science of

storytelling for business.

Um and you know, we we are storytelling

animals. We we we we think in story. We

we you know, narrative is basically

you know,

how we experience ourselves and and

life. And so as I say in that course, if

you're not communicating with story as a

marketer, you're not you're not

communicating. You know, logic and facts

and data and statistics, that's not the

language of the brain. The language of

the brain is a beginning, middle, and

end, a character overcoming obstacles. I

think a lot a lot of the stuff we've

been talking about is important,

especially

that idea that people think with their

feelings. You know, they it's feelings

first, story second. The story justifies

the feelings. And so if you want to tell

persuasive stories, you need to first

understand exactly who you're

communicating with, and you need to

understand

how they feel about the world, how they

feel about themselves, how they how they

feel about um you know, justice and what

their values are. And so that means

understanding them kind of tribally.

What what groups do they belong to? Who

are their heroes? Who are their

villains? What motivates them? What

demotivates them? So So before you can

sort of write the story, you need to

figure out how they feel about the

world.

So a bad story then would be one that

was cuz you know, I I thought about this

a lot in my previous business was very

successful in storytelling. So my first

company, Social Chain, it's going to be

a very big business, maybe a thousand

employees worldwide. We were we started

out as a as a marketing agency, never

had a sales team. Because we we focused

on telling stories. Those stories were

told on social media and on stage by me.

So when I would go up on stage and talk

about our agency to try and win business

from Apple or Coca-Cola, whoever it was,

I would actually start by talking about

my my relationship with my mother. Mhm.

And that would be the first sentences

out of my mouth when I walked on stage

if there was a thousand people or 15,000

people there. It would be about my

mother. And through that story about my

mother and my and my upbringing and my

battles and all those things, eventually

you'd learn about our business and what

we do and about the great work we do.

But that was the preface of it and

that meant we never needed a

a sales team.

I've always believed that

if I'd walked on stage and started with

a case study, Yes.

I would have

I would have I would have had to have a

sales team at Social Chain knocking on

doors. Definitely. And I think this is

one of the biggest mistakes businesses

make. When they pitch, when they when

they speak on stage, when they post on

social media, I think they have a they

believe that the the listener wants

big numbers and to hear how many views

they got for their clients or for yeah.

And it just doesn't seem to be

consistent with reality. No, it's not. I

mean, so what you're doing when you're

going into about your mother is you're

connecting emotionally.

So people are

you know, wanting they're on your side

immediately and and you're making them

feel good. You're making them feel

things emotionally.

The the kind of framework that I use for

business storytelling is that is that is

that you know, essentially people's

brains process reality um in the same

way. And that's the you know, so so

they're the hero of their story. You're

not the hero standing on the stage. The

company that that that's selling to you

isn't the hero. They're the hero of

their own story. Um they are you know,

they've got goals they're trying to

pursue. We all have you know, that which

are the plots of our lives.

The audience. Yeah, the audience, the

person you're selling to.

And then

there's a brilliant story analyst called

Christopher Booker who wrote this

amazing book called The Seven Basic

Plots.

And he writes about um archetypal

characters in storytelling that he calls

light figures. And so the light figure

is the example he uses are the three

ghosts in

A Christmas Carol, the Charles Dickens

Scrooge story. So Scrooge is the hero of

that story,

but the three ghosts come in to show him

Christmas past, Christmas present,

Christmas future. They help him get what

he needs, which is to become a better,

more selfless, more generous, more

loving, giving person. So they So they

they are going to they arrive in his

story to kind of show him the way, to

help him get what he needs. And so that

that that that's what I argue, that's

the appropriate position for most

companies and organizations and leaders

is not to be the hero because your

audience feels like they're the hero.

You're the light figure. You're there to

help them get what they want. So when

you go straight in with here's all my

awards, here's what this person said

about me, here's some statistics and

stuff, you're not a light figure, you're

presenting as the hero. What people

really want to know is how can you help

me get what I want? And and and that's

that's the story that you have to tell.

What kind of example can you give me to

really make that make me understand that

in a real practical sense? Is there a

brand you've seen do this really well?

Is there an example of a

I I mean, I I my brain went to Nike for

some reason.

Yeah, yeah, well well, that's

Nike's a really interesting example. So

So obviously one of the things that Nike

has done recently is it's

um

done that ad campaign around Colin

Kaepernick, which is controversial, but

did them I think I think they sold them

up like 6% like after that that ad

campaign.

And that's a really good example of

an organization who is

um

behaving as a light figure. So that

Colin Kaepernick ad campaign has nothing

to do with shoes. There's you know, what

they're not doing is going, our shoes

will make you run 8% faster. We've got

these sprung soles. We've got these

amazing laces that won't trip you up or

whatever. You know, that they're

stats-less. It's not in there. It's

purely they're telling a story. They've

figured out that their client base are

mostly believing certain you know, this

set of beliefs around the world.

And and those those are goals, you know,

people who you know, that the target

audience that they're

they're appealing to want to achieve

this kind of racial social justice and

that's important to them. So So what

Nike are basically saying is

you know, we are light figures in this

story. We you know, we we are we we are

on the side of the Colin Kaepernicks, of

the people who are kneeling. You know,

we believe that black lives matter.

And and so they're presenting as a light

figure. And And if you think about it

rationally, it's kind of crazy. Like why

would a shoe company have this political

thing? But it's because of the

storytelling, because because they're

presenting as a light figure who who is

engaged in the kind of

you know, this particular mission the

world. And you know, in in order to kind

of to to to to to kind of join the

mission,

you you buy the Nike shoes. And And it

worked. You know, it works really well.

I mean,

one of the archetypal examples

that that I talk about that I love is

there was an

an ad that was broadcast, I think it was

in the 60s by Volkswagen. And it was the

first kind of modern ad advert. It was

the first It was the first advert that

you would look at and recognize as

the kind of advertising that we do

today. So before this Volkswagen ad,

you know, all ads were just stats-lists.

Here's this amazing, you know, tire and

you know, this will get you naught to 60

in whatever. Um and then this Volkswagen

did this amazing ad where it just it was

black and white cuz it was still in the

days of black and white. And they had

it just showed this guy. It was all

snowing, it's a big blizzard outside.

And this guy gets in his car. He turns

it's like it's like, you know, just

before dawn. Turns on his ignition,

drives his car through the blizzard

blizzard blizzard blizzard. Opens his

huge shed doors and then you hear this

big engine start up and out drives his

snowplow. And it's how does the guy who

drives the snowplow get to the snowplow?

And it's just Volkswagen. And that's a

really simple, really effective story.

And it's showing Volkswagen as this

light figure. We are helping the hero

achieve what he wants. And you know, I

don't believe that the Volkswagen was

particularly good at driving through

blizzards. I don't believe that.

And they certainly weren't making any

factual claim in the sense that we are

better than Land Rover and whatever

whatever whatever doing this because of

this stat. It was as simple as that. And

it revolutionized marketing. It changed

everything because they'd figured out

that kind of light figure form of

storytelling. And in that are they

saying that the Volkswagen Volkswagen

enables you to be the hero? That means

the story is about

And Nike is saying that the Nike shoe

associated it Kaepernick enables you to

be the social activist hero.

Hero, exactly. Yeah.

Kaepernick was.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Fascinating. I'm just going to change a

few things about my

few of my companies, I think, based on

that. Yeah, I think I think we I think

in the course of business we all forget

that emotion is the most important

thing. I'm thinking about all the

newsletters that my companies have been

writing. I've got various companies and

the newsletters they write and the

videos we make and how

and how sometimes we

we think that facts and figures and

information is what the viewer is

looking for in their lives, but the most

compelling way to draw them in to

whatever we're doing, whether it's a

newsletter or a tweet or whatever, is by

putting emotion first and and really

thinking about what the emotion of the

the content is. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And

with the with the Nike example, I mean,

we we live in uh since the global

financial crisis, we live in heightened

political times. And so so, you know,

and and people are always tribal.

And and And so, you know, one of the big

things that that that that successful

kind of persuaders do is is to make

those tribal appeals. Um and, you know,

sometimes it works with Colin

Kaepernick, like with the Gillette razor

campaign, it didn't work because you're

kind of essentially attacking your

target audience. Um uh so that was, you

know, less successful. Um I think there

was a terrible Pepsi ad with Kendall

Jenner.

about that.

Where where where where where they were

kind of basically Yeah, where where

where it was just making this

Well, it put a a super rich uh beautiful

model, white woman, as the uh the hero

against social injustice.

And drinking a sugary drink is going to

help Yeah, you know, so

It's just all off, isn't it?

Yeah. So so, I think organizations are

sensing that

partly how we can be a light figure

these days is by is by is by presenting

as people who are assisting in these

the the these political goals that have

become very important to people,

especially young people.

Um and some people are getting it right,

some people are getting it wrong.

There's a real science to it though,

isn't there?

Yeah.

The more we've spoken, I've realized how

how there is a a science to it when you

understand the the roles and also the

audience, the roles of the characters in

your content or your piece, and also

where the it's really about where the

audience sees themselves, as you say.

Yeah. And how they feel represented. As

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Your 2021 book, The Status Game. This is

the book that when I was reading through

all of my notes, I have by far the most

amount of notes on

because I maybe it's just, you know, the

way I'm compelled to whatever, but it

was really really fascinating and very

felt very relevant. Status as a topic.

Why why does status matter? And what is

status for people that don't understand

the word? Okay. So so so it matters

massively. And and I and the reason I

wanted to write that book is because

people just don't really talk about it

very much.

Even though our lives are full of status

pursuit, people just don't talk about it

very much.

Status or status, I wish I knew. Well,

Americans say status, Brits tend to say

status, but I guess it's both. Yeah,

it's it's both. Um

so so so I I think one of the one of the

one of the one of the kind of reasons

people kind of tend to not like this

subject is that when I when I've sort of

made the argument that we're all

motivated by status pursuit, they kind

of they think I'm saying we all want to

be rich, we all want to be famous. And

that's not what I'm saying at all. What

what I'm saying is that we all want to

feel of value. So we evolved as as

these, you know, tribal animals, and to

be successful in the tribe means two

things. You've got to be good at

connecting with other people. So so

being accepted and

and fomenting a sense of belongingness

with other people. So that's

belongingness, that's connection, that's

not status, that's something else.

But once we're in a group, in a tribe,

we want to rise within it. We want to

feel that we are of value to other

people. And so back in the days when our

brains were evolving in the in you know,

when we were living in the in the

tribes, um

the more status that you earned, uh

the more and better food you'd get, the

safer your sleeping sites, the safer

your children would be, the greater your

access to your choice of mates. So I

mean as we all know, survival and

reproduction are the basic most

fundamental um

drives we have as living things, and

status, when you rise in status, your

chances of survival and reproduction

just go up and up and up and up. So when

you're in the tribes, the most you know,

people would try and get status in the

tribes. Um and and the more more status

you got, the better everything else

became. And so that was true 10,000

years ago, it's true today. That is

still true today. The more status that

you earn, the better everything else

gets. So it's this huge um

huge component of human behavior, but

it's subconscious. So we don't like to

think about it sometimes. We like to

deny it even though we

all love to feel of value and we are all

very very sensitive to any indication

that we that somebody considers us to be

of lesser value. You know, you said at

the start of that that when you

introduced this topic, people will have

kind of an allergic reaction because

they're think they think you mean, and

it goes back to what we were saying

about your audience receiving that

message in a bad way because of where it

frames them. It frames them as being

kind of narcissistic and self and

selfish and, you know, and those are no

nobody wants to admit that they they are

selfish or they are, you know, they're

concerned with status. They don't want

to admit it. It's true.

But nobody wants to say I'll say it.

It's just the way that we are.

But and then you you went on to say

that, you know, people don't like to

admit they want to be famous, but I tend

to believe that a lot of people do want

to be famous. And in that book you talk

about children in particular when

they're asked what they want to be when

they're older.

It's quite pretty alarming, right? Yeah.

And that and that's I mean that's that's

again an indicator of the rise in

individualism

that that's the the the more and more

kids in the West since the '70s have

been saying that we want to be rich, we

want to be famous. But there are all

kinds of status games that we can play,

and I think I think the I I think the

one of the important things to

understand about status games is is is

that the brain is so obsessed with

status, it it assigns kind of status

points to

anything. So for so so for some people,

for lots of people, the accrual of

money, that's their status game. That's

how they're measuring their status, how

much money I've got. But for other

people, for in it can be

how simply I live, you know,

I know someone who um he's a lovely guy,

but he considers himself to be sort of

not materialistic, and he's a very much

in the wellness space.

And he um

tell you know, he was telling me

last year that he's, you know, he takes

his kids to their private school. But at

the school gates, you know, he's got

this beaten-up old car that he's had

since he was a student, and he's got

masking tape around the

the the the the wing mirror, and he was

sort of talking, "Oh, you know, all the

other parents have got these big

Mercedes and Audis and BMWs, but I've

just got this thing." Um and and I think

he he he was trying to express the fact

that he just didn't care. He just didn't

care about his

his status. But for me, he he did care.

That car was every bit as much of a

status symbol for him as the, you know,

the brand new Mercedes um four-wheel

drives were for the other parents. It's

just that he was playing a different

status game. In his game,

having a crap car is is a high status

thing. The same as the aristocracy in

Britain. So, you know, if you if you

remember the British aristocracy, you'll

look down your nose at people who have a

brand new Japanese Lexus or whatever.

They drive up beaten-up Land Rovers. And

so so so so it all depends what game

you're playing. Different different

games um use different things to

symbolize status. And and and so so that

so that's how that game works. Lots of

people play the fame game. Lots of

people play the money game. Um other

people don't. You know, if you if you

were if you were hanging around with

Gandhi in India, you wouldn't be playing

the the money game. You you you you you

you would have got more status for

living the more simply your life became,

the more status in that group you would

earn. It's so true. I've played all

those games in my life and still playing

many of them.

I'm not here to lie, so that's that's

just what it is. Um and I I think really

interestingly on that as well is um one

of the status games I was playing when I

was a little bit Well, I say insecure,

but clearly I'm still insecure if if I'm

still playing status games status games

now. Um was how much designer stuff can

I buy and

champagne can I buy in nightclubs. I

played that game between 18 and 24. And

then when I actually got money, when I

actually was successful, I actually saw

Louis Vuitton as a

lower status thing. So I just started

wearing all black and got rid of all of

my designer stuff

because I now think that it's different

game. Yeah.

game I'm playing now. And so I don't now

I have an allergic reaction to anything

designer because to me

Yeah, it's weird. I think it's low

status. I think in my head it's low

status.

true. And and in the book I write about

this the this hilarious study where they

figured out because in in the in the

luxury goods game, the bigger the logo,

the lower the status. And they figured

out that that that I forget the exact

measurements, but a certain amount of

um logo space, um

you know, like

half an inch, um, smaller meant, you

know, $500 more on the on the price. And

the most expensive designer stuff has a

logo on the inside. There's no logo on

the outside. And so as I and what that

kind of speaks to is that again

the whole world isn't one status game.

There are kind of almost infinite status

games. And people we're not particularly

we're not that interested in what people

outside our games think of think of us.

It's much more about what people who

play in the games with us think of us.

And so, you know, in in my wife is the

former editor of Elle magazine. So you

know,

so I you know, that fashion luxury

world. Um,

you know, people signal to each other. I

will see a handbag and it will just be

invisible to me what that handbag means,

what the meaning of that handbag is. But

the person the owner of that handbag

won't give a first what I think

about their handbag. They're interested

in what what what you know, that woman

over there who knows about that handbag

knows. And they'll know by the quality

of the stitching, by a tiny little

detail on the corner of that bag that

that is a really good bag. And that's

what matters cuz that's that's the game.

They're playing a game with that person.

They're not playing the game with me, so

they don't care what I think. It's so

you know, I have this very unproven, um,

thought that just came to mind when you

were saying about the size of the logo,

that when you're at the very when it

comes to luxury goods, at the very

bottom of the status uh

ladder, you want the biggest

logo possible.

Yes. You want it you want it all over

the car.

And if you think about something like,

you know, people, you know, where they

are in that in that status thing, they

will have they will wear a tracksuit

of that logo. And then as you rise

financially or in status, you the logos

you say get smaller and then it

disappears. So if you look at

billionaires, they're not wearing Jeff

Bezos is not wearing a Louis Vuitton

tracksuit

Amazon basic, yeah.

It's all plain. With the billionaires,

it's all very plain.

They they have the yacht. They're

playing that game.

Yeah. Yeah, they do. How many feet is

the yacht? But super interesting.

Makes me wonder

do do we actually really care about

these things? Do we actually really,

um, we I I spend we spend our lives

telling ourselves that we want that

Birkin bag. We we we really genuinely

love the Lamborghini. But do we do we

actually like the Lamborghini or we just

do we just just like what it's signaling

about us? Well, I don't want to over I

don't want to over, um, kind of

I must over promise the story. Like like

I think there's a danger where you can

say, well, a Lamborghini is 100% status.

There's nothing else. I I think that's

that's not quite fair on Lamborghini.

They're amazing machines. And I've never

driven a Lamborghini, but I'm sure it's

a fantastic experience. You know, I

you know, I've driven sports cars a

couple of times and it's been amazing.

So so it's not just status. Like it is

it's incredible to have a Leica camera

that take amazing photographs. So so so

you are you are getting something extra

for your money, but it's but but but

mostly I think what you're getting is is

status. That that's really mostly what

you're getting. And it's worth it. I

mean,

I don't want to fall into that trap of

being condescending to status. It is a

fundamental human need that we feel our

value. And, you know, if we're playing a

high level status game with lots of

Lamborghini owners, it's really really

hard to feel a value in that group. So

you've got to work really hard.

So that's why a brand new Lamborghini

for somebody playing that game will feel

as good as a

you know,

as a dirt bike to somebody playing,

you know, a game over there. Like one

might cost multiples more than the

other, but it will feel just as good

because they're worried about they're

only really concerned about what the

other people in there

their game are thinking. So so so so

yeah, we we do care. And it's it's a

good thing because it's

that, you know, the book

does talk a lot about the negatives of

status pursuits, but it also talks a lot

about the positives of status pursuits.

I mean, civilization, technology

that that's what you get, um, when

people want to pursue status. When when

somebody wants to become the best

technologist, the best vaccine designer,

the best, um,

you know, the best charity. We want to

save the most lives. That's humans at

their best. And that's also status

pursuit. But it's good. It's positive.

What is the toxic downside of being

addicted to status though? And and and

my sub question to that is that is

insecurity and sort of

a lack of self-worth a

predictor of being addicted to status

games?

Being human is a predictor of being

addicted to status games. We're all

addicted to status games. And Do you not

think people that were bullied and that

didn't and that were that were that were

low status in childhood in some context

are those that then seek status most as

adults? Um, maybe, but again I again I I

do think that personality comes a lot

into play. Um,

like anything, some people are more

interested in status than other people.

Like Elon Musk

is obviously incredibly interested in

his own relative status and that's a big

driver for him.

Um, Jeff Bezos, you know, Beyoncé, you

know, these people,

um,

are are very highly attuned to the

status game and that's what pushes them

pushes them pushes them to work harder

than I will ever work. Um,

so I don't I don't necessarily think

it's about, um, low self-worth. It might

it's probably to do with, um, genetic

things like

extraversion, agreeableness, which is a

personality, um,

component. If you're low in

agreeableness, you're competitive. It's

that kind of type A personality. So

so there's definitely a genetic

component to it. Definitely. But there's

also, you know, class comes into it.

People on the lower socioeconomic groups

have much less access to status games.

So

so you know, I think that's why

you know, if you're a working if you're

if you're if you're a poor guy raised in

a housing estate in Stockwell and you're

only the only available status games to

you are

Tesco's bakery

and this gang over here, I know what I'm

joining. You know, it's changed the way

that I see

some of those issues that you know, we

are we are programmed to

we are programmed to crave connection

and status and we will find connection

and status

wherever we can. And so I I so I I think

that explains

you know, when people are running gangs,

it's not cuz they're naughty. It's not

cuz they're bad people. It's because

they're just doing what they're designed

to do when they're in an environment

where there aren't many status games to

play. There's just not a lot of options.

It's interesting because when I I think

I think of some of my friends that I

that I believe in my own, you know,

ill-informed observation are addicted to

status the ones that are really addicted

to status, the ones that are really

pursuing it

are actually pursuing it at the cost of

connection. Mhm.

And and what I mean by that is my my

richest most successful friend that I

have that lives in a massive mansion in

the middle of nowhere because that's the

place they could buy the biggest house

and has all the sports cars is is also

the loneliest. Yeah, that's that's a

really good observation. I mean, status

and connection, they're separate things.

So

we crave by, you know, nature both of

them. You know,

people are tend to be happier when

they're more connected. But status is a

separate thing. And I think that's

right. I think that's absolutely

correct. Some people's that people's

dials are set. I I consider myself

somebody who is relatively high in need

for status, which is why I ended up

writing books for a living. But I'm

relatively low in need for connection. I

don't really have much of a social life.

I don't really want one. You know, I'm

not bothered particularly. Um, so so you

know, everybody's dials are set in

different ways. Some people have

relatively low need for status and

they're relatively high

need for connection and they're

surrounded by friends and they're

probably happier than I am. I'm sure

they're happier than I am. Is there

instances where we can be too consumed

with status and that can cause us to

have,

um,

adverse personal consequences?

Um, yeah, I suppose

Okay, so in the book I write that there

are kind of three general types of

status games that we can play.

First game is a dominance game. And so

the dominance game we share with

animals. We've been playing dominance

games for millions of years and they are

what they sound like they are. They're

about aggression, but also the threat of

aggression,

bullying, you know, that kind of thing.

Whenever we force somebody else to

attend to us in status, that's

dominance.

They're success games, which is I think

the best of human nature,

competence. So when you're when you're

when you're thinking about how do we

become a valued member of our tribe?

Back in the days when our brains were

evolving, we could be the best honey

finder, the best storyteller, the best

hunter, best finder of tubers. So that's

how you're a value to your tribe,

competence, for being good at something.

There's also virtue.

You know, we we can play virtue games.

And so in the tribe, that means that you

know the rules of the tribe, you enforce

the rules of the tribe, you know the

rituals, you believe in the spiritual

stories. Um, so virtue isn't just about

being selfless and kind and loving to

the your tribe members, but it's also

about being an enforcer.

And I think, you know, there's no such

thing as a pure game. That's the other

thing to kind of point out. Like you can

you can see, um,

a boxing match as a dominance game. It's

pretty clearly a dominance game. But

it's also got a virtue element to it.

There's some rules in boxing. You can't

go and just go and kick them in the

groin. You know, like there has to be

some virtue in there too. So you call

that a dominance virtue game. And I

think the I think the worst games I I

think the the games that are most

destructive are what I call virtue

dominance games. So a virtue dominance

game is one in which I I'm raising

status by enforcing rule by following

rules and knowing the moral the moral

rules. The dominance,

uh, component is I'm going to force you

to do it. So so you know, that's what

you see on social media a lot.

Those cancel culture mobs, people

attacking each other for believing the

wrong things. That's a virtue dominance

game.

At their very worst, a virtue dominance

game, you know, in the the I write about

the rise of the Nazis. I write about the

find the final chapter which kind of

brings the whole thing together

is that the story of the rise of the

communist in the Soviet Union from the

perspective of status and you know, that

that's also a virtue dominance game.

They're not interested in competence in

in success. They're interested in you're

going to believe this and if you don't,

we're going to punish you.

Yeah, that's a lot of that going on at

the moment.

There's a lot of that going on at the

moment and I and I think a lot of it is

because

you know, to try and try and be kind of

open-hearted about it. I wrote about

this in selfie and and I wrote in the

status game is that since the global

financial crisis, life has got harder

especially for young people. Success get

you know, like it's hard to get on the

property ladder. People are leaving

university with student debt. There's

massive underemployment for graduates.

We've got what they call elite

overproduction. We're producing too many

smart educated people for the roles to

fit in. It's it's

you know,

we're now entering a new recession

apparently. So so

life is much harder for millennials and

gen zeds than it was for boomers and gen

x's. So success games are harder to

play. So what you I think what you're

seeing is online people people get

status wherever they can. So they they

start playing virtue games instead.

One of the alarming things you talk

about in this book is that

status. Did I say that right? Yeah.

Yeah, that's the English way I need to

do it because I've got your accent.

And that will harm my status.

Exactly in the comments

Um this idea that status games actually

have an impact on our health and

mortality that we will die younger

if we have lower status. What evidence

have you have you got have you

got or found to support this idea? Well,

there's lots of evidence. There's a big

a lot of it comes from this guy called

Dr. Michael Marmot who is just did this

incredible set of work which he calls

the Whitehall studies. So obviously

Whitehall is the bureaucracy that kind

of runs that kind of takes the order you

know,

the the civil service that kind of works

with the government. So it's an enormous

organization that's highly stratified.

And so Marmot

looked at kind of health outcomes for

people on different levels of that kind

of hierarchy that status game and found

that

the lower you went down that status

game, the worst health outcomes became.

So the obvious thing is that's just

because if you're being paid less, you

maybe can't afford the personal trainer,

you know, you're eating worse. But it

wasn't that that wasn't the case at all.

They actually one rung down below top.

So still a very very wealthy successful

high status people had worse health

outcomes than the person at the very

top. So so so it really did seem like

the brain is highly attuned to where we

sit in a pecking order and the lower the

lower we are down in that pecking order,

the more unhealthy we became.

Another set of scientists looked at this

in the in the laboratory.

So they took a bunch of monkeys who

obviously like us very hierarchical that

status games.

And they deliberately fed this is a

terrible experiment. It's very

pretty awful. But they deliberately fed

them a terrible diet of like fast food

like chocolate and crisps. So they so so

they ended up having a high level of

atherosclerotic plaque which is you

know, so that they were getting clogged

up basically and vulnerable to

heart problems and so on.

And they found that it was the same that

the lower you went down the monkey

pecking order

the more likely the monkeys were to die

of these heart related diseases because

of their bad diets than the ones at the

top. And then importantly, they

conspired to change the hierarchy of the

group. I don't know how they did it, but

they changed them maybe they took out

the top monkey. But they changed the

hierarchy of the group and

they found that the health outcomes

changed in lockstep with the change in

hierarchy. So if a monkey went up, they

became less likely to die. And so then

you might ask what this is crazy. Like

why is this? And so the closest answer

that scientists have come is a whole

field called social genomics. It's a new

field. And social genomics is all about

how does our social world affect the

function of our genes? So you know,

we're social animals. Our brains are

constantly monitoring how we're doing in

the world. What are our levels of

connection? What are our levels of

status? We have this status detection

system that's constantly monitoring our

level of status.

And so the idea is that when the brain

registers that we

are you know, dropping in status and

we're not too high in status it prepares

our cells. It changes the way our