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i had to achieve i had to be perfect i

guess ultimately take on the suffering

the player of the tournament johnny

wilkinson a genuine

sporting legend how much pressure has

this man been under this week for me it

was do or die on the field so therefore

where other people kind of called it

quits and threw in the towel i didn't

have the

choice this will go down in history was

your mental health better or worse after

that moment when i was on the field in

the zone i was operating at a level i

couldn't even understand

waking up the next morning you know

leaves you in the cold light of day i

thought there was going to be joy here i

was convinced there isn't

i spent my life

being very fit but not really that

healthy

health is about what fitness can come

out of unless you look after health it's

dangerous

people say i wish i'd made more of my

life wish i'd enjoyed every moment but

that starts with health working on

someone else really doesn't work for

anyone working on yourself tends to work

for everyone

so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening

but if you are then please keep this

yourself

[Music]

johnny

um you went on to become one of the real

greats in rugby and i remember watching

you in my living room as a very very

young kid on the screen in awes not just

in that 2003 moment but but long before

then and when i think about when i sit

here with guests that are athletes or

successful entrepreneurs or whatever

they might be

they sometimes but not usually can give

me a sort of a fairly accurate

description of what happened in the

earlier phases of life that would would

mold them to become that champion or

that ceo that they later were you're

someone that is incredibly self-aware so

i was very much looking forward to

asking you the same question which is

when you reflect on the early stages of

your life what were the like defining

um molding experiences for better or for

worse that you would point at and say

that's probably why

or at least that led to in part who i

became later in life

um

i think

the best way of answering that would be

to say that

in my younger days i'm very young

without any

any kind of

triggering

events

certainly not that i can um

remember or ever ever sort of come into

contact with

i had enormous passion

and

some kind of

adeptness

for bulls skills

so if i had a ball in my hand

things just made sense i could work out

i could i could

in my sort of head i could have a

some some sort of target some sort of

goal something to do with that ball and

i could

i could work it out

that was part of the intelligence i had

was just

i could bring those things about

relatively effortlessly

and i had a real passion for exploring

that it still is the case with me i

still find myself

playing basketball and

and often so much of this i'll do on my

own

because it's my relationship with that

inner capacity i have

that interests me not to show what i can

do but it's that sense of i guess being

at home

and that's where a huge amount of the

revelations that i have in life come

from from that kind of relationship

however there was also another

relationship which again without the

triggering

event um

i grew up with an immense sense of

doom and fear about everything so i had

this incredible sort of passion and

inclination towards

expressing myself with with balls and

skills and

and in competition as well but the

competition side

was a need

that wasn't a desire the the the

achievement um all that stuff was

obsessive

um

but from a negative perspective because

i had this sense of doom surrounding

everything

that was my disconnect if you like i saw

other people handling situations that

seemed so simple to them but for me

insurmountable and yet when they looked

at me with regards to ah you know with a

ball in my hand what they thought was

impossible for me just was relatively

straightforward and i think those two

sides of my path meant that

i had this

constant uh

drive to just

find myself in a garden with a ball in

my hand that's all all hours of the day

and night most of the time

it's all i talk about all i talked about

what i spoke about all i did and yet on

the other hand i had this ever-present

fear that i built this

if you like

defense mechanism coping strategy

but ultimately identity

around how to

somehow

survive that fear and that that

for me that mechanism i put in place was

i had to

achieve i had to be perfect

and i had to

i guess ultimately take on the suffering

and and live that kind

of martyr savior

stroke

warrior archetype and as such i found

myself

really really uncomfortable

with when things were seemingly going

well it just yeah i found that

horrendously difficult to handle as a

result i would revert to that defense

mechanism of creating problems

if there weren't so i was constantly

looking in a state of kind of survival

for where the next problem was because i

was convinced with this ever-present

sense of fear that there was a threat

and it was there and so yeah those two

paths essentially

weaved in and out with each other

throughout my entire life but there was

no doubt that my ability on the field at

times to be in that zone was where i

felt my genius but at the same time

the other strength i had was that for me

it was do or die on the field so

therefore where other people kind of

called it quits and threw in the towel

i didn't have the choice

yeah the fear didn't just drop off and

let me just sit down for a bit so i

could go and go and go and go

when you talked about your childhood

there you said

despite there being a traumatic event

that had created this kind of

perspective you had about

um

this sort of fear but also this sense of

real peace and homelessness you

described it when you have a ball yeah

um

your dad phil was a a rugby player and a

football player uh cricket cricket chris

yeah yeah rugby and cricket yeah it was

just two things okay what was his

influence on you because it's you know

when i when i read that he was also a

sports player in his own right um

that's kind of typically the story you

expect to hear i sat here with eddie

hearn as well his dad worked in the same

business i've sat here with ceos their

dad worked in the same business and the

interesting thing i i

connected and i'm not making any

assumptions here so i'm asking the

question is

in the case of eddie in the case of um

uma kamani who was at boohoo

they describe a very similar thing a

real sense of kind of almost innate

feeling of pressure to succeed

and they also at times couldn't

necessarily tell you where it comes from

what did you either of your parents play

a role in that in that perceived sense

of pressure to succeed

no

i sort of like i said

i'm heavily into the introspective

side of all this and and part of that

kind of

search now for potential is is where

that's moved it used to be

grabbing the external and trying to

expand physically you know what more can

i have what more can how can more people

know my name or everything that could

almost

expand my reach and and

presence on a physical level now no

really no longer interests me it's it's

how to allow

my presence you know in that

non-physical space

um

and my

sort of

journey of looking into that has meant

you know i've i've questioned everything

and yeah my

my upbringing was

was you know fantastic in terms of that

you know and

uh

i had every opportunity to go and

do what i wanted to do um

i have my brother there as well

and my parents all sporty

but

there was just something in me which had

latched on yeah and this is something i

feel maybe it's something i brought with

me into this world from a you know like

a karmic positioning whereby

i was always going to grab things that

way i was i was susceptible to

understanding things a certain way um

but for me you know i i

i sort of pushed my parents hard yeah i

can't imagine it was easy my brother too

and the way that i was

i was sort of i challenged them in ways

you know i didn't give up

and a lot of that like i said was well

all of the

the irrational stuff came from the need

for them it was baffling but you know

they had their lives and i appreciate

that

as is always the case that

people are always doing their best and

that's what i remember about our family

the most is that everyone's always doing

their best and i look at everyone now

and realize that

you know people are where they're

supposed to be and just

giving it their all and and what's been

so so powerful for me is just being able

to

switch that interest with what giving my

best means is more than

unlocking and letting go and shedding

than a

what more can i grab and and you know

where that path turned around is perhaps

where you know where i felt

the the true understanding of of what

this journey's been about as opposed to

where i was looking to where did it come

from what happened here et cetera et

cetera it's more of a kind of uh it was

just about that you said something there

which some people might skip over which

is you said it might have been something

you inherited karmically or you know and

that reminded me of something i'd heard

you say previously about

being able to sort of inherit

generational

messages or um whatever that might be do

you believe in that do you believe that

we're passing messages from one

generation to another within within

ourselves and that that is shaping our

lives

yeah i believe that the

the role of karma is basically a memory

and it's that kind of

it's it's the way we've remembered

things and whilst

for me example for example when i'm

stuck in that really physical

identification of this is who i am

as in on me i'm johnny and then i do

have a start to my story in an end

but as i've been

sort of exploring letting go a bit more

of that

that kind of physical identity of right

now

i just tend to feel that it opens up a

different understanding of memory you

know

if we're a process of that evolution

then the cells in our body have a memory

that goes back a long way

yeah and

that's impossible to separate you know

where we come from from parents and

where they from their parents from their

parents from their parents you know

everything is all interconnected

but we put a stop and a start on it and

it seems yeah one of the things i find

so so interesting when looking at that

is that

i'm very interested in the science side

of it too and looking at

the desire of science to find

you know what it is that we're made of

and yet they keep coming up with it's

nothing and then they go to well what is

it we're living in

and they keep finding out that it's

unending

and yet who we are we seem to manage to

say despite the fact it's made of

nothing and it's unending we found a way

of saying but we're made of this we

start here and we stop there it just

doesn't make sense to me anymore whereas

before you know you live in those

boundaries

what you see

inherits those boundaries and i think as

i've released those you start to

not so much question but just allow

for different understandings to take

hold and one of those is that

that you know i find it fascinating to

look at yeah i've got a young child and

i find it fascinating to look at

children enter and they're all so

different

how are they so different

and then you say oh well

yeah it's it might be to do with how

their parents have behaved during the

during the the sort of um

you know the the months preceding the

birth and

yes but

even then

why are the parents behaving that way

goes on and on and it just goes back to

the same way that i still believe that

we're all doing our best

but there's a part which we bring with

us into this into this space and you

know i feel like there is there is

nature and there's there's that nurture

side but that nature yeah but that

that nurturing has been going on forever

and it's and it's important that we have

a bias and a

stance

because without it

i don't think you can have this physical

experience

unless there's something holding you in

it

and i think that's the point is to find

out what that is and

and engage with it embrace it and enjoy

it

and what is holding you within this

physical experience what is your stance

it's

so so interesting that question you know

at the beginning i'd have said um

oh you know this what i'm telling you

about my

fear

and then i'm talking about my need to

survive and then unlocking that and

going beyond it and you think i

understand it and you get challenged

again oh where did that come from i

think i understand that now and i feel

so much challenged again where do these

challenges keep coming from

and i think that's the

the part of me understanding what my

stance is is an ongoing process

an ongoing process of just enjoying

challenge and embracing it

i think i

use the kind of

expression when i talk to some of the

guys i i train

with and and the when they're they're

doing their sort of kicking with the the

rugby

is that it's all about sort of finding

that absolute piece and an inner

environment that allows you to go and

explore

this opportunity you've got ahead of you

and every time you find you you can't

find that state

it's because you're holding on to

something it's never because you don't

know something or because you haven't

learned something it's because

you're holding on to something you don't

need

and you have sessions right at the end

of it people are feeling like i feel

amazing and you're kind of thinking yeah

great just wait till tomorrow

because this idea is tomorrow

i'll still feel amazing but then the

next day you're how do you feel i don't

know i just feel a bit like this why

it's because each of those sessions that

we're doing it's like a light that

shines into your your garage where you

think you've cleared out all the bags in

your garage that you don't need anymore

and then you think that's all clear and

then a slightly brighter light comes in

the next day and you're like oh there's

loads of stuff over there i didn't see

that i better go and clear that now that

the more you clear the more space you

find in there

but to think you're going to get to the

end of that

for me to think i'm going to sort of

find out why i'm here

what i think i'm going to find out is

it's my choice to be here and that's the

beautiful part is the proactive reason

for being here

as we said in the question it was like

what's holding you here i think now

probably the the way i really see that

is is what's my calling what's my

purpose when that's fulfilled

uh that'll be an interesting moment but

i don't see that being anytime soon

it's really interesting reframing of the

situation because we you're right we

spend our lives looking for some kind of

external

given reason for us are in existence but

flipping that and saying

well yeah i'm choosing to be here and

i'm choosing to be here because of the

purpose that i've decided on um

it's a really powerful thing because you

know i mean

in my dms and messages i get from kids

it's this kind of outside external

search for this easter egg that they

were born to find called their passion

and their purpose yeah and when they

can't find the singular easter egg

somewhere they fall into such tremendous

like frustration and feelings of

inadequacy i haven't found my purpose

that means i'm a piece of [ __ ] and you

know that kind of that spiral downwards

one of the things you

you touched on there was um

the feeling of peace and you you know

and then

the um and also

just before that um you talked about

letting go of um

something because we're holding on to

something and that thing often is

identity and expectation something i've

definitely done in my life is held too

much onto a sense of identity and that's

really caused me lots of problems as i

read through your story starting from

your very early days in newcastle to

later it became apparent that you were

you're holding more and more onto this

expectation and identity which you'd

earned from your accomplishment

and that was having a detrimental impact

on your peace

yeah so talk to me about identity and

the journey you've been on there um i

think

for me

perhaps overriding understanding and it

comes i think from a lot of the way i

doubt my sort of immature days of

trying to understand that fear and what

was going to

transcend it what was going to help me

transcend it and that understanding was

i'll solve it

and when i solve it

this fear

machine

will suddenly turn into a joy machine my

suffering is going to result in joy

interestingly enough

by

feeding that fear with all the

reassurance whether it be hours and

hours and hours upon of kicking or

training that's telling me you know

giving me the greatest guarantee i could

possibly hope for which was no guarantee

at all never did anything but

it never sort of fulfilled itself

satisfied itself but that was the best i

could do

to try and reassure the fear of that

moment would say look i can do it you

don't have to worry i can do it

but of course as soon as i stop doing it

the fear comes back and says can you

really do it better do another one and

so trying to solve it

by feeding reassurance to a fear machine

the fear machine just becomes a bigger

fear machine that needs more reassurance

to get the same hit

trying to get that that same hit just

meant more and more reassurance so

you're building i was building greater

habits and needs to keep suffering

so i could keep solving so you lock

yourself into that cycle

and

that cycle

when you're locked into it

compared to when you're not

that's the only difference between why

you speak about expectation and fear of

failure and pressure is just because

you're in the cycle it's not a reality

to life it's the reality to the cycle

certainly to my cycle

and when i'm outside of that when i'm

feeling good for example in the middle

of the game where you're you're in the

zone if you could articulate anything in

that

sort of

mind space

you know what's the pressure like in

there

what are you talking about

how can there be a pressure to now when

you're in the now

there's no consequences to the now

because it's now there's no then or

before or after

so you can't have consequences you can't

have pressure

it's now and so

deeply understanding that versus the

cycle

i guess was where i realized what i was

trying to do with all this identity was

answer something

was answer a problem the identity was

creating the problem and the identity

was about solving the problem

i had to keep the problem to keep the

identity and i had to keep trying

solving it to keep the identity as well

and it was never going to go anywhere

and i think my big

issue with all that was i was trying to

answer something i was trying to find as

we said before in a world made of

nothing universe made it nothing that's

that's ever ongoing i was trying to find

that answer

and that answer for me was

from a an identity perspective was about

working stuff out logically

and yet all my peace and my joy came

from when my mind was

being

i guess

inspired by my heart

i spent most of my time trying to

almost uh i guess

inform my heart through my head

it was what i trying to do i wasn't

listening to that one moment where i

felt

beautiful

and then learning from that i was

learning from the 99 where i was feeling

so stressed and suffering and i was

using that as my guide i was using my

head as my guide and i think

the undoubtedly the the change in me has

been

to let go of the need to find an answer

to have that trust in that there is not

going to be an answer

there is going to be

um an ev expanding beautiful journey

which when you remove the answer it's no

longer a journey because it's not going

anywhere it's an adventure

and then that's what the now feels like

to me i think you know for me that

identity

was a massive relative

existence on a social level

how did i measure up how did i compare

all of that to do with trying to answer

that problem basically

to have this fear i'm somehow not worthy

or deserving of having what i want how i

want it

and therefore i've got to manipulate it

by looking for what's going to get in

the way of it and how can i control that

to see if i can get some of it anyway

instead of that feeling when you're in

the now which is

this universe

is working for me

and we're friends we're not yeah we're

not trying to

enter into some kind of

tricky sort of

i don't know shady deal

where you know we're both trying to con

each other it's like no no we're we're

in this together so mike is there some

game where one of you can win and the

other one yeah yeah it was yeah for me

that was always the guess why you could

never rest easy because

something went well that was the time to

be like oh you know

this is where

your life might have lost out because

i'm doing well so life's not gonna how's

life gonna come back and get me because

i've just tricked life you know i've

gotten something out of it and it's now

like i was gonna want repayment for this

and you're gonna get injured or

something you're gonna get injured or

you're gonna and i guess in a way when

you pride yourself on that perfectionism

and the achievements and the

which achievements basically also comes

down to how other people see you feel

about you what they think of you

and

when you sort of

yeah when you enter into to that kind of

space

it's uh you know

humiliation is perhaps

the biggest fall

you know that's the one when you pride

yourself so much on being perfect

the thing that scares the

the hell out of you i think on from a

physical perspective it's living and

dying on an identity level it's

humiliation

and yeah that was at the basis of a lot

of the training was it would be so

humiliating for me and the more

well-known you become the greater the

opportunity of humiliation when you're

the unknown it's kind of like it doesn't

matter too much you know when you're

playing down at the park and you miss

one no one's watching you kind of like i

can handle that but you know 80 000

people millions on tv when everyone

knows you and they're all thinking don't

worry he's got this

yeah that's the moment your

your battle with

you know fear perfectionism whatever you

want to call it ultimately led to an

obsession on the training ground right

because you describe that obsession on

the training ground is actually a

distraction from the fear that like

really never worked in terms of filling

the void um i i sat here as you were

saying that i said

if

johnny at

16 17 18 or before

had the mindset

you have now

would he ever become the player he went

on to become like if a 16 year old who

is very similar to johnny is listening

to this right now and he takes on all

the advice that you're giving about

being present and you know removing the

fear and living without expectation etc

and living in the now um

would that increase or reduce his

chances of becoming

world cup champion

yeah it's a it's a good one

and

in some ways i'd have answered that

quite simply by saying

it was when i was at my best

that i was already doing this

so in 1718 when i was on the field in

the zone i was

operating at a level i couldn't even

understand

and that's because i i was having the

mindset that i'm

talking about now right so i was already

having it and it was in those moments

that i really shone

so it's not like i never had it it's

just that when i did have it in those

years

i knew i was onto something

it's just the relationship i had was

that in order to

to get in the zone i need to suffer like

mad and the more i sort of like started

succeeding and feeling a bit of the zone

the more i said i better suffer some

more the more suffering the more zone

but of course you just overload the

suffering and you've got no room left

for anything now and i think

working with guys now is the best way to

answer this is that

i'm kind of

answering that question by working with

people

in that younger space

and

one thing that's certainly

yeah it's actually very it's impossible

to do anyway but it's it's also not the

right idea is to remove too much of

someone's suffering because you remove

growth so when i say suffering probably

challenges is a better word you know

obviously we don't want anyone to suffer

but if you remove too much of the

challenge you remove the opportunity for

growth so in a way

i was going to have challenge then in

whatever form

and i needed challenge i needed just

like saying if you keep winning

all the time you just see a plateau in

your performance

and so i didn't want people to agree

with me all the time i didn't want to be

written about in the paper as being the

best all the time as much as asked me

before the game i'd have said please

just let me know everything's perfect

but actually looking back

those challenges those moments of

conflict

it's what asks you to step up and go

again so i needed the challenge i needed

all that suffering

but it's just where it crosses the line

and becomes

counterintuitive and and

counterproductive

there needs to be

an understanding of how to

relate to the challenge so that you

don't face the same one over and over

again i think that's what i would

i would have been interested to see was

you know if you'd have gained some

ground on that challenge then what other

challenge would have come not that would

have been it but it would have been a

different route to see

um but it's largely irrelevant it's not

something i ever think about because

it's got

what i've been through and

and what i've experienced in that way

doesn't make me anything

you know the past doesn't make the now

the now is the now

um and i think you know who i am

is how i relate to that now and if i'm

carrying around this big idea of how i

got here and what i've understood i'm

just

separating myself from the now

and that's so big if i come into the now

saying here i'm bringing a past in can i

get in the door they're now saying no no

that key doesn't fit

you can't bring the past in here

you have to choose you're going to live

you're going to live

sort of

disconnected from the now and you can

have your past

or if you're going to allow that and and

have a different relationship with that

then you can have more of me you can

have more of the now i think that's uh

the same goes with the future you know

the more you carry your past the more

you you're carrying your future at the

same time but that same same principle

applies you know if you really want the

now it's a case of well you've got to

align with it and ask the now you know

what's the now trying to do nothing what

are you trying to do something okay well

there's the disconnect and i think

that's been huge in those moments on i

always come back to that moment on the

field when i'm in the zone

your identity's gone

you you there's no it's me doing this

it's me trying to do this there's just

doing

as this happened with the 2003 drop goal

it's the one moment that i can say

genuinely

um

it was happening without me involved

i was able to embrace it and enjoy it

and experience it but there was no me

trying to do it

it happened whilst i was in it

but it wasn't me doing it

is that

alluding to the fact that you were in a

flow state in that moment

yeah i mean whatever flow state means to

to anyone it's basically

that kind of understanding

i guess that there was

for me what felt like a

very very

immediate

relationship between what i was desiring

and intending on the inside

and the manifestation of it

was almost instantaneous

as opposed to the way people look at it

which is like i've got my goals and

and over time you know they're gonna

come together to form this it was

it was almost kind of instantaneous in

that respect

and that's that's where that sense of

past and future disappeared because it

was

inside outside

were

you lost their separation

was your mental health um

better or worse after that moment

um

i think it was a

a sort of

catalyst for maybe a

a deepening or intensifying or an

acceleration of what was already in

place

definitely

but it wasn't

a brand new thing

it was just a bit of a a deeper

i guess experience of it it came for

better or for worse for um well i mean

guess depending on how you look at the

challenge it was a

for example the emptiness

was just a bit more severe because

winning the world cup was the main goal

so

winning

the game

and the six the other the grand slam or

or getting selected for this or that

were huge goals

and the little parts of emptiness

afterwards that came

um

were was a bit less because

one it wasn't the main goal and two also

because it wasn't the main goal the net

the main goal was still in place which

meant you were therefore still moving

towards something

i think because the main goal

was so important but also afterwards

there wasn't that clarity of where i go

next yeah that was a bit of a deeper

drop into that space of what's this all

about and how does that feel in detail

that you describe it as a deeper drop

just just a a sense of confusion and

sort of bewilderment with the idea that

there was a promise here

there was a promise albeit one i've made

to myself but it's such a deep such a

strong one

and a well-defined one that said it's

gonna happen

i've worked hard for this i've done all

i was asked i've done all i asked myself

to do

again i keep sort of you know

i can't abide by the idea that you know

that there is this somehow this external

i used to use the blame and the

sort of offset that responsibility and

hand it over to something on the outside

to say oh yeah that's why i'm feeling

this way but now you know it all comes

from the inside but even so

that promise felt strong it felt real it

felt

um

and that you feel a bit sort of

cheated but also confused because

there is no one to blame there is

nothing to grab there's nothing tangible

that says the other stood there saying

you know well yeah i got you there

tonight it's like

where now what now and then there's also

a little bit of that extra confusion to

say well what's the point of the next

one the promise was that you'd receive

some kind of euphoric joy yeah and

fulfillment and

yeah it is the hollywood

ending

but of course hollywood films have that

privilege of

the credits coming up and

and leaves you with your imagination and

your imagination it always just

it's not in detail but you just think

wow how great for them but of course

should that camera carry on for even

another hour

you get you get stomach in there and

yeah that's all it took after the world

cup final you know

we went to a private party and you start

thinking oh we'll go there and have a

chance to chat that's going to be great

when you get there it's

oh these people you know that this isn't

private why they're letting you know i

can't even get here to see there's no

space you know it's already in

it's going and

but i think yeah

waking up the next morning's a big one

that night's sleep

you know leaves you in the cold light of

day

when it's all you know you're looking

sort of at the the room and the hotel

and it's a it's it's just as is

and it's it's not shining you know said

this before a few times i've spoken

there aren't people waiting outside the

door willing to you know hoist you on

their shoulders and carry down to

breakfast where you've got your own

special table it just

it is but it's so powerfully

kind of beautiful in that way in the way

that it allows you to

at some point understand that

there's also a really great reason for

why you feel that way because it's just

it's a it's a pointer to

there's a disconnect here

it's nothing to do with what's going on

the outside it's just there's a

misunderstanding here

and

an opportunity but that opportunity as

you said how do you move on to the next

one

it involves some vulnerability because

you can't walk in the shoes of the same

identity

but head in that other direction the

identity is the direction you're heading

in

you need

you know

a new identity a more spacious one a

more open one but that's vulnerability

that's you know to to do that you have

to

shed those

those

solid lines you've drawn up which have

kept you

safe and given you your

your standoutness

to others they can see you because

you're drawing yourself in solid lines

you can say this is who i am and you

talk about yourself in that way and it

feels like that's purpose and that's

that's kind of meaning and worth

but it's it's asking you to let that go

and that's humiliation as we're talking

about it's a humbling journey

and it's vulnerability and i wasn't

ready for it at that time definitely not

what also didn't help was the the game

after that i first played after that for

my club was two weeks later and in that

game

i crossed the line on a neck injury it'd

been building for a long long time over

years and in that game it probably

went and i spent the next couple of

months without being able to move my arm

and then

surgery and all this talk about you may

never come back and of course you've

gone from

this is what i do this is who i am to i

don't really know what's going on

anymore and now i can't even do what i

do so i can't even be those solid lines

i can't present anymore now i'm watching

other people do it so

it's an amazing

coming together

of circumstance to really point you and

say hey

what do you think should we have a look

at something else

that's like nah so i was i was on the

exercise bike the day after my neck

operation

with a neck brace on my brother came in

and saw me we were living together saw

me and sort of said what are you doing

and it's the need i've got to get back

to where i was and this is such a

powerful

thought is that

we want growth you want progress you

want to advance and to explore and find

new things and yet

the way i was going to do that was going

back

that's how i was going to find new stuff

i have to get back to who i was and how

i was

and yet deep inside me what i wanted was

and what i began my journey was i want

to find out what i'm capable of what i

was actually saying in this moment was

i want to go back to what i've had

to where i've been

that was a big big moment i just wasn't

quite ready to listen to it and as soon

as you do get back which i did for a

little bit before getting injured again

and again and again which was the stress

of all that that need and obsession

it's enough

because just enough of the old habits

and the triggers come in with people

around you saying oh you're doing great

so good to have you back in it

i'm back

but of course

it just it's just enough to hold you off

making that

that step in the other direction

and uh yeah that came about later on

i i resonate so much with that and my my

moment of i guess which is analogous to

your moment of being injured and being

trying to be back on the bike was when i

resigned from my company i kind of

looked at it and fell into the belief

that if i spend the rest of my life

living out these labels that i've earned

through my accomplishments social media

ceo or like entrepreneur or whatever um

i would likely end up abandoning my true

self and probably end up in like some

kind of mid-life crisis so at that point

as i write about my book my objective

became okay if i had no labels who would

who would i be and trying to really live

a life free from my confining identity

and be free to be the full expression of

myself

is the journey i find myself in now is

that what you mean when you say um

you were trying to get to the point of

understanding um

all you can be

is that what you're describing there

i i think what comes to mind when you're

saying that

for me was and it's also another way of

looking at the identity thing i think

you're speaking about is that

the more i've released those

boundaries of identity the more creative

i've become

and there's nothing more creative than

being in that zone as i say when those

boundaries are gone you're so creative

that you suddenly see things

and you put you join dots together in

ways that you can't imagine they could

ever have been and yet it's so easy it's

so effortless creativity is an

is an effortless

kind of capacity that we have it's not

one that needs trying to be involved

when you're becoming creative you don't

try to be creative that's the whole

point of not being creative is you allow

and you explore and what comes out

is surely more of what's really who we

are

and i think the thing for me and

that was that as a child i had that i

had that creative ability

and what i did was i embraced and i

celebrated

my creativity

as i got older what i did was i held on

to my creation and that was another way

of saying identity

so as i began to attach myself to what

it was i was creating instead of

exploring the creativity and the process

there i formed the identity because it

was the identity is look at what i

create you can't have an identity as a

creator because then it's still look at

what i create i'm a creator but to have

no identity i think in that respect to

be nothing on the inside as they say is

to be everything on the outside

allows you to to create and therefore

such a real interesting moniker or

marker rather for me is

how creative

do i feel right now

and to set the

environmental conditions internally

for creativity

effortlessness relaxation

excitement passion and ultimately

on the spiritual level

worthiness

and i think that you know when i say

about for me

that's been where it's changed because

you you can't be fully creative

and insist upon

the creation how it's going to turn out

and needing that guarantee that's

control

i'm going to be so creative as long as

it turns out like this

so you're not going to allow it to go

anywhere new you're not creating

anything you're almost you've got a

blueprint you're you're organizing

and i didn't after a while i think i

realized i didn't want to organize and

manage my talent i wanted to celebrate

it and like you said be all you can be i

want to see where it can go i want to

and all i can be means going beyond

identity the best i can be means within

my identity

the best ever is within a very small

identity

you want to be the best ever that's a

very small identity and you went through

those three phases right you write about

the first phase was you wanted to be the

best ever then you wanted to be the

second one was your best i can be the

best you can be and the third is you

want to be which is where you find

yourself now all you can do yeah it just

determines the strength of the idea or

opinion behind it i want to be the best

ever is a very strong idea this is there

are some game right yeah yeah and that's

hugely massive comparison massive

competition massive measuring up massive

dependence upon other people's views

yeah how do you know you're the best

ever because someone says i do right i'm

going to work on you i'm not going to

work on myself i'm going to work on your

opinion

um the second one the best i can be is

is an idea still what's my best well i

was good then so it needs to be that but

a bit more okay it's still a strong idea

you're still limiting yourself all i can

be

is looking at the eye

not looking at the rugby player

you know because the best i can be is

okay i'm gonna be the best father i'm

gonna be the best and these are all

great pursuits but they still don't

match up to what about

just

this being

how how

how much can i be in terms of how can i

explore my being

the best i can be still

just shifts over to doing

the best ever is all about doing

it's all about physicality best i can be

a bit less all i can be drops the

physical and that's where creativity

comes in you know being creative

physically means moving stuff around

being creative which is effort but being

really creative means you can sit

and just be

and that's where i think all the all the

opportunities

quick one as the seasons have begun to

change so has my diet and um

right now i'm just going to be

completely honest with you i'm starting

to think a lot about

slimming down a little bit because over

the last couple of probably the last

four or five months my diet has been

pretty bad um and it started to show a

little bit really over the last two

months i go to the gym about 80 percent

of the time so i track it with 10 of my

friends in a whatsapp group and this

tracker online that we all use together

we call it fitness blockchain and i'm

currently at 81 percent

um so 81 of the days i've done a workout

in the last 150 days right so i'm going

to the gym about six times a week

that's been a little bit impacted by the

derivatio live tour but i'm trying to

stick to it

and so one of the things i'm doing now

to reduce my calorie intake and trying

to get back to being nutritionally

complete and all i eat is i'm having the

heel protein shake thank you hill for

making a product that i actually like

the salted caramel is my favorite i've

got the banana one here which is the one

my girlfriend likes but for me salted

caramel is

the one

there'll be people listening to this

that are you know they left university

they went to school and now they're a

lawyer and they've been a lawyer for 15

years or they might be i don't know a

dentist now they've been a dentist for

20 years and

a lot of the time when i speak to these

people there's this other voice inside

them that's been suppressed over time

which is probably all they can be and

they've got really consumed in this

identity which they're like parents

wanted them to adopt of being a doctor

or a lawyer whatever it might be

um

it when i speak to these people they are

seemingly trapped by something and um

that that force that's trapping them

seems to be so much stronger than the

other voice which is which they

sometimes can even point to as being a

more fulfilling life which is i guess

all they can be they want to go and be

an artist they speak to me before my

show they show me their instagram and

they're the most unbelievable artist

i've ever seen in my life and they their

face lights up when they talk about that

thing but when i ask them what they do

they say yeah i work in the city i work

in finance for like kpmg or something

and you can see the dread in their face

how does someone start the journey and i

think you alluded to vulnerability there

but how does someone start the journey

of going from that place

of you know confinement and identity and

i am this thing that i've earned through

my achievements to being all i can be in

a practical way what's how does that

change

i think that voice that inner calling as

you just said is is passion and

excitement

versus the duty and the need and the

fulfilling the the roles

if you like of society and i think

therefore

for me the way that works is that

you you add to the passion excitement

constantly and allow that to look after

your deepest intention which is always i

want to spend i think

all my time fully present which means

doing what i love doing

being who i feel like i'm meant to be as

much as that will keep evolving and

changing so therefore it comes down to

following your highest passion and

excitement in every moment

and people might argue straight away

well how can i do that if i've got to be

at work at

seven in the morning and i've got to do

this and i've got to go and traipse

across town to get here yes but within

the boundaries of what you have to do

what's your highest excitement follow

that so you know i've got to drive

across here and it's going to take me

two hours and

but then when you're in the car

tune in to what's my highest passion

excitement i love this podcast okay go

that's it i really want to listen i've

got that my

hands free i'm going to phone so-and-so

because i just thought of them and i

really want to chat to them follow that

intuitive instinctive impulsive side

that comes from

what you want

and

when that gains momentum

i think

the way it works is that

the universe responds by providing more

and more opportunities to do more and

more of what you like so that you your

highest impassioned excitement

the environment allows for you to really

do more and more what you really love

doing but you've got to start the ball

rolling by saying right within this

moment right now

how can i what's my highest passion

excitement

how can i be

how can i bring more of me

into this as opposed to allow this to

take away more of me

and i think that

is a journey that just

looks after itself you know it's on a

physical level it's the do what you the

little things you can do set goals and

allow them to you know what you focus on

what you can do and allow it to expand

and

and

grow into the most amazing things

it's the same way of just doing that on

an internal level it's just follow your

heart and it might be physical it might

just be things i love thinking about

it's it even if it comes down to

to being you know you're you're stuck in

a lift and you're kind of like and it's

a tiny lift and you're going to be there

for maybe for a while

okay but

people talk about going to a happy place

but that's what's my highest passionate

excitement oh what i love to be doing

now paint it

picture it think of it dream it feel it

all those kind of things all these

things are amazing things to be doing

and if you're following your highest

passion if you're enjoying and embracing

this moment i spoke to someone recently

saying that

you know to know you're on track for

your future manifestations of your

dreams

the indicator is often how deeply are

you embracing and enjoying this moment

now

and once you find yourself loving this

moment it's amazing how much things just

fall into place for you

and i think that's the key to is to be

able to say whatever it is whatever you

can do

do it

and bring it to this and i think

that voice that says oh i can't do this

i can't do that it's not possible i

shouldn't do this or it's not right is

another way of saying

i i can't be me

it's so interesting because when you

were saying that i was thinking about

the former version of myself at 18

living in manchester and most side where

you know i i was very very i had nothing

and i was shoplifting as i've talked

about a million times food to feed

myself but in that moment i was although

i was working in call centers at night

night shifts i was so unbelievably

excited by life because i was also

designing my website in my designing my

future business in my lunch time in my

breaks of that call center

um

and

people i've said this for years and i

don't think people believed me but i

i've said i was as happy then as i am

now that kid was so optimistic and so

happy even though he was he had no money

and he was working night shifts in a

call center um and i appea and it sounds

so privileged like obviously because of

money now whatever but um

it resonated with so much of you are

saying then i think it's because of what

you were saying then was i was still

pursuing my highest passion despite the

fact that i was working in this call

center i was not occupying all of my

time and my thoughts that i could with

that future and that's what i believe

manifested me being here because i could

have made the decision

um

that this was my destination and my

forever and i'd probably still be there

now now in most side yeah i i definitely

agree

the idea about following your highest

passion

there is a passion i think deep down is

for expressing

who you are and there's no doubt for me

that rugby for that period of my life

was what i was meant to do that's how i

was supposed to play out that was

that was what i was supposed to be at

that time

um

but then your passion changes slightly

and to be able to

leave the rugby and follow that passion

often i think people say you know it's

really difficult to find my next passion

but i think

having that

that kind of ability to to leave behind

what's been

is what allows passion for what can be

and i think like we were saying before

about wanting to you finish your rugby

and then you think i'll go straight into

coaching because it's close enough and

people still know me and i thought but

actually to have that period of

not just after an end of a career but

daily to have that quiet period every

day where you just sit not with

not with ideas i'm going to think about

this or i need to plan this or i need to

work out what my passion is but just sit

and just disconnect

from that pull of the external eyes

closed and just watch but of course away

comes in as am i doing this right

what should be happening should i be

feeling something i haven't had any

ideas it's been two weeks and but just

do it

just do it in in the name of moving to

your potential

because we were so willing to

to give to our limits look at how many

years we spend suffering and telling

ourselves certain things that have come

from old ideas that no longer serve us

we're willing to give all our time to

those

but people are still alive it's too hard

to find 10 minutes to

sit on an evening what am i going to do

when actually you know you have that

moment where you're sat watching

something on tv and it's not really

interesting and you're kind of like

that's time there but once that ball

gets rolling when your passion centers

around something and everything comes

out of that same passion so it's all

aligned it's all kind of focused energy

that's gonna manifest there's no doubt

you know like i'm sure at some level

there's no way you get to where you are

now without there being

that drive now i had that

in the rugby

and a lot of it was

a sort of conflict and it stressed them

out of me but it was so damn strong

that it had to win

because i wouldn't let it not win i just

didn't do it in a way that was enjoyable

same

and now i think when you release the

conflict you get even more flow you get

an effortless version of what i've done

through efforting

i've efforted heavily yeah i heard that

word recently i really like it i much

prefer it than tried or given so much

but

i've really made it

a sort of

an effort version of how to get to the

top and what that means is when i look

back it's like how was it i never smelt

the roses that's what most people say

yeah because there's another way to do

it

and maybe that's how this has come out

for you versus the first i don't know

you know like these projects for me the

next things i'm doing seem to just kind

of

oh yeah there it is that's interesting

whereas before it was oh god

get out of there don't you dare whatever

it is

i think that just comes from at some

point just saying well okay this is what

i've got

acceptance

and then

what do i want to do right now what's my

next step responsibility

and you can't get to that passion

without the acceptance and the

acceptance is

this is what i've got this is where i'm

meant to be this is how things are

and once i come to ease with that then

suddenly there is that well i can start

to feel what it is i want to do next

yeah but while there's that resistance

to this it shouldn't be this way and

should i be doing this or i'm elsewhere

future past

passion and excitement are kind of like

look whilst you're trying to survive

we're not relevant to you

you know someone in survival isn't

really interested in passion excitement

and i was in survival most of my career

hence why i keep saying about my career

you know the passion and excitement died

away not because i lost

i fell out of love with rugby at all not

at all just purely that i was in

survival mode more and more and more and

the more i went into it the less

relevant

creativity growth love

connection with teammates excitement

passion joy it's just not relevant to

that

you nailed it when you described me as

well with that when you said um the

drive that i had that was really strong

was actually upon reflection just deep

insecurity yeah still a big drive there

it's still a big driving drive hard to

shake when you think about winning the

world cup and you said that was the goal

was that really your your

goal

yeah it's in i think having

later that insecurity is often for me

just comes down to the opposite of trust

it's distrust

in yourself or whatever but when there's

a different trust about it

that acceptance i'm speaking about

is all-encompassing

that it

it when you accept now

it is a full acceptance of all that's

been

now is is yeah if you accept this then

everything from a physical perspective

that's brought to here also sort of is

accepted

and

therefore

for me

it was my goal because deep down my

inner calling was i want to be free i

want to be happy

and i i want this and so

according to the energy i was in

these were the cooperative components

when a world cup why so you can see that

that's not quite where you need to be

going

all right have some injuries why so you

can go through your own learning at the

speed that you're choosing

you can't go any faster than you're

ready for you can't go any slower

it is simply as it is and as you explore

i think

it kind of as you start to expand it the

expansion takes place i think quicker

once you get going i think more

revelations come and it kind of opens up

harder

or faster but the the point for me being

that

that trust is just

it may have taken

40 years

to get to this point from a but from an

experiential level

i don't feel 40 years has gone into this

it's been instantaneous

because it's just memory it's not 40

years

so i kind of love the idea of

people confusing the past with memory

when it's memory and you start to

realize its memory and you start to

realize that you have a

say in the emotional

involvement in that memory you can

release it from those memories

that you can play with your past

whereas people have a fixed idea of past

and yet they want a different future

it's like like a railroad track

you know that has a certain piece that's

slightly curved and the train is going

along and reaches back from the previous

piece and sticks in front because these

are my understandings about how life is

this is how it's going to be and so you

end up just going round and round and

round in circles instead of the classic

cycle breaker

which is

that random different piece and

sometimes it's a big shock or a trauma

for people the way you kind of get a

piece that's like completely different

direction suddenly you head off into the

unknown and people have those amazing

experiences but sometimes it's just a

piece which is slightly

less curved

and that's what those moments were for

me you know that different understanding

of like hold on i thought there was

going to be joy here i was convinced

there isn't and suddenly that cycle

break in your thinking just enough to

change the piece a bit and you head here

and you widen your circle and eventually

you start to be in control a little bit

more of

how you're going to see each event so

you can start to best you can shape

those pieces to send you into the

unknown

which is why i didn't want to go before

you know that's the

the the unknown was the threat the

unknown was the was the potential slip

up we're talking about was that kind of

shady space where you're not in control

anymore whereas now the unknown is like

well if you want potential you want to

see what life is

it's unknown and the more unknown you

see yourself the more you align with

life less ideas i have the more unknown

i am the more i align with life the more

that i start to

to get that

that's i think that more instantaneous

response we're talking about instead of

it taking 40 years

you know for me it's kind of over that

40 years it's been

sort of

expanding out but over the last

15 it's been quicker over the last five

much quicker and over the last

one

much much quicker

this

the

vulnerability is an interesting word

because it assumes it makes you feel a

certain way but this this truth and this

openness that you speak

um

which is kind of marks the way you speak

now this kind of i'm willing to tell you

all about myself in terms of how i feel

and what i'm thinking

and i'm willing

again this is an assumption i don't care

as much about what you think of me based

on what i'm sharing now whether it's

about your mental health or about how

you're feeling which again are things

that men don't typically do especially

you know leaders in sport right

what impact has stepping into your truth

and being open and like free from

caring too much about what others might

think of you because you're so open

about your mental health and other

things what impact has that had on your

life

i think it's the openness is is

is not

um

a conscious

decision i'm not coming in saying i'm

now going to be so open about it the

same way that i might have been

unconsciously closed before you know

still kind of not speaking about stuff

not because i'm sitting there thinking

i'm not talking about this but because

that feeling says this is where i want

to stay within the boundaries of this on

the conversation

and

now the boundaries are wider not because

it's not now a narrow boundary of all i

ever talk about is how my suffering is

kind of like but

you talk about

i guess what's relevant to the moment to

the conversation

and it's inspired rather than

um

pre-planned

i like i said to you before i think i

used to be a big one for preparation

um

so coming into this you know i tried to

think what i'd have been like when i was

21 but i'd i'd have been you know out

there with with my sort of agent or with

my my dad or my mum or something and

i've been waiting to come in and be like

yeah and they'd be like it's going to go

fine don't worry it's going to go fine

but yeah it is just make sure you i'm

going to talk about that and i might

talk about that story if you ask me

about that

it's planned

on the basis of i'm trying to achieve an

outcome from this

but

when it become which again is that whole

kind of like

what i create what i actually create

defines who i am so what i'm going to

create from this will define who i am so

i need to make sure it's how i want it

to be

all based on this idea of who i am but

without the idea

i think

i speak

according to the

situation not according to my

identity and i listen according to

what's maybe more of what's really being

meant than what's being said and again

it it's this

i guess it's this different

more

less solid

idea of who you are that just suddenly

opens up the understanding of what

really listening is and being there is i

mean being there for someone is such a

amazing phrase when you really look at

it to be there for someone

it means fully being

now if you people are saying about how

what's the best thing to do if someone's

struggling is like just be there for

them okay but you mean like just

physically stand there

and be loving and but all if all of this

is an effort it's designed

to get an outcome

but it's to get an outcome for someone

else you must have to know what's right

for them

and now you're deciding

and limiting them but if you want to be

all you can be you you can allow others

to be all they can be you can allow a

situation to be all it can be

and i think that kind of for me has been

you know the the

one of the biggest

openings and an example i'd say was i

spoke to a young

football player a while back

maybe sort of

15 16 years old and someone said would

you mind just having a

chat

and i said yeah of course i'd love to

you know you get that inspirational sort

of feel immediately that yeah this is

one of those

cooperative

manifested moments of there's something

that i've i've called for

and this has been

offered and i think i'm going to explore

this you know because it feels right

that it's in my path

and we had a chat and

midway through the chat it came to me in

quite a sort of

emotionally sort of

i guess intense way

i suddenly realized that

i wasn't talking to this person

as if i was

40 they were 15.

as if they were a young soccer player i

was an ex-rugby player

i suddenly realized that i was

exchanging on a level here where

it was energy form to energy form

not age

relevant at all not even

defined simply that

i was performing a role of serving

and being served at the same time

according to

allowing and letting it be whereas

before it would have been okay right

before the call you kind of put on your

mentor shirt you know going to be a

mentor now and um you know

but a talk like this and give it the

whole kind of yeah well i guess if

you're going to play sport you know all

this son of stuff but instead you phone

up and

suddenly i realized i'd lost that idea

of

the difference between people and people

talk about it from you know age gender

all these kind of things you know

religion race everything and you sort of

think

we're all trying to do that

by listening to the right thing to do

and what people should say and how you

should speak but it's all the answers

are

in your own journey

to releasing all your

sort of self-discriminations and

judgments

that then it just becomes so easy and

obvious but so joyful and such a

a true exchange according to what's

really being asked for rather than two

people playing a game on the surface of