All right, everybody. Welcome back to

the All-In podcast. We are super pleased

to have with us today Senator Joe

Mansion is joining us today here on the

All-In Interview. And Chamath and I will

be interviewing him uh on his new book,

Dead Center in Defense of Common Sense.

A great book. Welcome to the program,

Joe Mansion. I know you like to be

called Joe. So, Joe, welcome to the

program.

>> Jason, thank you. And it's great to be

with you and Shamath and and I've

>> followed you all and you've been

unbelievable what you've put out and

some of the people you've had on. It's

been very entertaining, very interesting

and very thoughtful. So anxious to be

here.

>> Thanks. And we we have a tradition here.

I don't know how often you watch the

interview show, but we always try to get

a personalized gift for each of our um

our guests. And so I in the book you

talked about your first car, your 19.

>> Oh, if I could if you could find that if

you could find that thing for me, it was

a bullet back. I can't find the car.

Well, there it is with the white

interior.

>> Oh my god. Where can we buy it? No. No.

We got it. It's in your driveway right

now. When you get out of your office

there, it'll be waiting for you by your

yacht.

>> Let me tell you that. Oh, by my yacht.

Yeah, I got a big

>> Oh my god. Has a $200,000 trwler.

[laughter]

>> It's a fishing trwler. Correct. And it's

a trwler.

>> Joe, listen. Joe, what what Jason has

just proved is he has not read the book,

but he looked at the pictures in the

middle. That's all he's done.

>> No, I did the

>> He's ripping off the pictures in the

middle. No, I don't have the physical

book. I did the audio book. But Joe, you

did the right thing. You read it

yourself, which a lot of authors, you

know, they get try to get talk out of

doing it, but it makes it so much more

personal.

>> Hey, Jason, I didn't know I was supposed

to do that. And I And all of a sudden,

my daughter Heather says, "Dad, you got

to show up at the studio and start

reading your book." I says, "How how?" I

said, "Why do I have to do that?" She

says, "It's in the contract." I said, "I

didn't see that." She says, "I didn't

show it to you."

>> It's part of the contract.

>> It's like six or seven hours of reading.

>> It took 20 hours. 20 hours.

>> So, three days. Three, four days.

>> Four days. And let me tell you, it's the

best thing I've ever done. The make me

reminisce everything we put in the book.

>> It's just Chamati. You haven't done this

yet because you haven't written.

>> I don't I'm not really into audio books.

I read the book. Look, I have it. I I

like to have the physical pages. I mark

them. I

>> Okay.

>> I'm old school.

>> Yeah. I mean, I sometimes I do both, but

you know, when you're in the session,

>> I'm sure you had this where the

producers got the button and then you're

like and you know, and then I got my

Maserati and I came out of the garage

and they're like, um, a garage. You're

like, yeah, I came out of the garage.

Like, a because you have to do every

word perfectly to sync it on Amazon,

right? So, they have to correct you over

and over again if you just miss one. The

most unbelievable thing is the first I

the first day I start doing it and I'm

sitting there, you know, and all of a

sudden I'm just talking and reading the

book and I cross my legs. They said,

"Stop. Cross your legs, didn't you?"

[laughter] I said, "What?" They said,

"We heard you cross your legs." I said,

"My god, I'm in trouble.

>> You're basically in like a Faraday

cage." Like, if you literally, you know,

hit anything.

>> Yeah. Oh, wow.

>> But, you know, the the book's fantastic.

Everybody go pause the uh podcast here

and I just absolutely go buy it because

it's so important and you know I

mentioned um when we were just on the

pre-show Irish Catholic Boy Scout and

you start the book out with an Irish

Catholic boy scout getting in a brewhaha

Donnie Brookke with an Italian

Irish boy scout. You an Eagle Scout?

>> No former president.

>> What? You were an Eagle Scout? That's

what the internet said. Where'd you get

to? First class.

>> No. No. I got up to I got up to life.

>> Oh.

>> And what happened? I was right next to

it. Let me tell you what happened. 1959.

Never forget it.

>> The coal mines the coal mines got

automated in West Virginia. I lived

within I lived in little coal mining

community, 400 people. And there was

three of the largest coal mines you've

ever seen. And everybody worked in the

coal mines. Okay. And all of a sudden, I

come home one day and my dad had a

little furniture store. My grandfather

had a grocery store. And there was all

these guys sitting on the on the curb.

They got laid off because it got

automated. They lost their job. Pat

Keenir was my scout leader. The best of

the best of the best. If you have a good

scout master, scout leader, you're going

to make it. If you don't, you don't make

it. And what happened? He had to go to

Lordstown, Ohio to get a job in the auto

factory. And we lost it. And I was done.

>> You left scout master. Yeah.

>> I lost my guy. Oh, well, this part of

the of of your story, I think, is the

crucible moment for you because I've I'm

Catholic and Irish, and I know the

Italian Catholics, that's that's quite a

fight.

>> An Italian Catholic and an Irish

Catholic get in a fight. Just step back

is what I my best advice everybody.

>> But you got in a heater with Joe Biden

over the the bill back better bill.

>> Yeah. to the extent that like I believe

the Democrats or operatives were sending

people to your trwler, your your house

boat that you're living on, they're

sending people, you know, a little bit

out your family maybe

>> everywhere. I was and I had the death

threats were unreal, Jason.

>> Your own party. So maybe you could take

us to maybe tell that story because it

feels to me and correct me if I'm wrong

that this is a se seinal moment in your

political career or perhaps the

>> I don't recommend anybody getting caught

in a 50/50 Senate in the United States

because the United States Senate is

supposed to be the the the uh most u

deliberate body in the world. And the

reason it's deliberate because you have

to have a 60 vote threshold for closure

to get on to get on a bill. And with

that, that was intended from our

founding fathers is that the house is

going to be simple majority. 218 out of

435. Don't even talk to the other side.

You don't have to just shove it through.

And George Washington said, you know,

it's just going to be like a hot cup of

tea and it goes over to the Senate.

Should cool itself off so we can drink

it. Well, that's the whole premise. And

people keep saying, get rid of the

filibuster. That's the holy grail to

democracy as we know it. Because without

it, we wouldn't be the country we are

now. It forced us to sit down in one of

the bodies to s cal calm things down and

talk to our friends over in the House

and say, "Guys, this is how it's got to

be. We've got to moderate this some."

And that's what that's what it was

that's what I'd always known from Bob

Bird, Senator Robert C. Bird, our

senator forever, 50 years plus in West

Virginia. when I became governor, he

kept I think he kind of knew in his mind

that I would probably run for the Senate

and he was getting to the end of his

career or, you know, his age was

creeping up on him pretty pretty hard.

Anyway, he kept telling me all the

different things of why he did certain

things, why the rules were the way they

were. So, I had a real understanding of

the purpose of the Senate and my

responsibilities. So, here we go. And

then the the whole the whole thing on

reconciliation,

there's a reconciliation. It's it's a

movement. It's a that we operate under.

And it's basically stopping it stops

anybody from preventing us to make sure

we can take care of our financial

responsibilities.

And so reconciliation only takes a

simple majority. Well, in the Senate,

that's the only vehicle that you can

have a 51 vote threshold without a

closure vote of 60 votes getting to the

bill. So then Joe Biden gets elected and

I think the story in the book it starts

out Schumer kept calling me that all

every hour on the hour the night of the

election and I'm thinking why is he so

worked up? Because in the Senate in all

honesty whether you're in the m if

you're one of if you're not the majority

leader but you're one of the senators in

the caucus or the Dem Republicans you

have the same power you have the same

you know you can participate every

senator can participate. They're all

important 100 of them. So he keeps

saying, Joe, he says, you know,

understand this Georgia thing could

really, you know, it could happen. I'm

thinking, well, I don't think we're

going to win Georgia. We hadn't and then

wasn't predicted, but Donald Trump put

him in play to be honest with you. Him

going down there and getting into a tiff

with everybody. He did. And so all of a

sudden, you know, we got uh uh two

senators that are running from there.

And boom, the first one calls Raphael

Waro. He wins. Osafs later on that

night. Boom. They call that and Schumer

says, "You know what this means, don't

you?" And I said, "Well, Chuck, I think

it means you're the majority leader." He

says, "No, it means that you can

probably have anything you want." And I

said, "I just want my country to do

well. If my country does well, my state

will do well. That's all I care about."

>> What do you think he meant when he said

that?

>> I know exactly what he meant, Schmoth. I

know exactly. Chuck Schumer basically

coming from where he comes from. It just

whatever you can take back home. And of

course, Bob Bird was always criticized

for taking so much what they call pork

back home.

>> And that was the the situation he

thought, well, I'm in a cat bird seat

now. I could outdo Bob Bird. I just

never thought that. I just never thought

of tipping the scale so unfavorably to

where we all should be doing well if we

can move our country forward. But that's

what he thought. Okay, what do you want?

I just want my country to do well. When

that happened, there was a lot of

thought that the filibuster and and

maybe just to take a step back for the

audience, the whole point is that as you

explained, basically laws can get passed

in one of two ways. The real way, which

is that you have to find some sort of

compromise with folks on the other side,

get to 60 votes, or the other way, which

is a more of a budgetary process called

reconciliation, which is a simple

majority. And there's been a lot of talk

that

one party at some point will try to

eliminate the filibuster so that when

they have a simple majority, they can

pass any law they want. And there was a

moment, I think, in that point where you

came under a lot of pressure to get on

board with trying to eliminate the

filibuster. Can you just give us a

window into that and what happened and

how you made the decision and what the

what the reaction was from party

loyalists? Well, let's go back to 2013

when Harry Reid because of Barack Obama

couldn't get his appointments done for

his for his cabinet and things of that

sort and and some judges. So, the

majority party can change the rules. If

they want to blow it apart, they can

blow it apart.

>> Well, Harry Reid decided that he wanted

to get rid of the filibuster.

And uh I just said, Harry, I'd never do

that. I mean, my goodness, you can't

just because you can't work with

someone. I said, "You and Mitch don't

even sit down and talk. You don't have a

cup of coffee, let alone discuss what

should be important for both sides." And

at that time, I even told Harry, I said,

"Harry, the only thing that the

president's wanting

that he got he won re-election 2012,

gets reappointed 2013, reinaugurated,

and here we go." He wants to put his

team together. That's will and pleasure.

And I always believe that will and

pleasure that will and pleasure means

you're you get elected. You're the

executive Shimoth and you said, "Joe, I

want you to be part of this. I'm going

to come and go. It's your will and

pleasure. I'm not staying over. Once

you're gone, I'm gone. Why not let you

have your team unless I then they can do

a FBI background check, find out if I'm

of sound character and moral values and

no criminal records and boom, let me

go." So I I begged Harry just go over

and cut a deal with Mitch and say,

"Mitch, let's together do this

unanimously. That 51 vote threshold for

all of the president's appointment,

people that'll be will and pleasure, no

holdovers whatsoever. But you can't do

it to judges that get lifetime

appointments. You can't do it for other

other uh different agencies that have a

six-year or a nine-year term. Just will

and pleasure." And I I thought that

would be very simple. And he wouldn't do

it. They said, "Oh, no. We got to get

the judges. I says, "You're going to

basically change the confirmation

process to 51 votes for a lifetime? Are

you crazy?"

>> But they did it. And then guess what

happened? They did it for the They did

it for district and circuit judges.

Okay? Didn't do it for Supreme Court.

Guess what happened as soon as

Republicans took over? They were in

control. Mitch McConnell says, "Fine,

we'll do it for Supreme Court. Now we

have a 63 court." didn't work too well

before he did it. You know, whether it

be Harry or that. And during this, Chuck

Schumer's just come out directly and has

said he wanted to get rid of the

filibuster. That's how they were going

to run it with Joe Biden. Well, Joe

Biden had always been a defender of the

filibuster. How can you flip on your

values when all of a sudden now because

you're in charge and you want to just

shove things down people's throat? I

said, I'm not going to do that. So,

myself and Kirsten Cinema voted against

the filibuster, which stopped all that.

I was all for the voting. I mean, all

the concern the voting act, voting

rights act, all that. But I said, we

have to find a pathway that we have some

Republicans, 10 Republicans that will

work with us.

>> I want to go and ask you a very specific

question that's that's framed in the

book about Obama. But before I do that,

let's just stay on Biden for a second.

>> I'll get to where where uh Jason asked

me how we got to because it really how

it led up to what happened is

unbelievable.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe finishing that

big battery. Go ahead. Yeah. because

it's it's gets spicy. Yeah,

>> it gets spicy because what happened,

Jason,

>> uh the first thing they did was a ARP.

The American Rescue Plan was his first

bill. Soon as Joe Biden gets elected,

boom, he gets sworn in and in February,

he comes out with the ARP, American

Rescue Plan, which is this big overhaul.

Okay, we had just done, you all know the

finances better than probably anybody

observing. We had put $3.2 2 trillion

dollars into the market as co in 20 in

2020 March of from March 2020 up until

the end of the year and then Joe Biden

takes over. So we already put 3.2

trillion. He comes out with the American

Rescue Plan. They want to put another

1.9 minimum 1.9. Now we're at 5.1. Well,

our cash flow is about a little over $5

trillion a year that we run the country

on. They're doubling the amount. You

can't digest that. that the market can't

take it. But they were doing it. And I

says, "Are you people crazy right now?

We don't even know what what the 3.2 is

going to do,

>> let alone but they wanted it was they

were be chasing a social reform." And I

told him, I said, "Mr. President, they

heard me grumbling uh in the hallway and

one of the senators called the White

House immediately and says, "Mansion

making trouble already." Well, it was

50/50. They had to have me. say, "Call

me right over to the White House."

>> And I'm sitting there. I said, "Mr.

President, I'm begging you, please don't

do the don't do reconciliation on this

bill. If this is your bill, which I know

it's not, this is a Bernie Sanders and

this is Elizabeth Warren cuz I'd heard

them respectfully. I, you know, I can

agree in some and I disagree, but it was

just too big a bite coming right out of

co and we had a vaccine that was

working." So I said, "Please don't,

sir." And I said, "You're the only one

on the stage running for president with

all that big lineup that says, you know

how the place work. You can work on both

sides. You can make a deal." And I

always known you to be that person.

>> And [clears throat] now all of a sudden,

you're throwing, you know, the nuclear

bomb out. You're saying, "We can't work

with the Republicans. We got to do it."

>> And I said, "Sumer's got you all fired

up thinking that's how you're going to

run it." And I knew in my mind they

wanted to run that what we call the

117th Congress. The Congress is a

two-year stint. Every two years you have

an election. So, Congress, we were in

117th, just starting it. My

my uh thought process was is that

Schumer had convinced the president that

we could run this Congress for two years

with four reconciliation big bills, two

in two in 2021 and two in 2022.

>> And I says, over my dead body, that's

not going to happen. That's not what

we're here for. And that's not how this

place is supposed to work. So they

called me over in the White House and

they grabbed you always Jason. You're

sitting there and you see it on

television. They made everybody leave

the room and we're sitting there and

then president reaches over and grabs

your arm and he says, "Joe, your country

needs you."

>> I'm thinking, "What the hell do I say

now?" And I said, "Mr. President," and I

grabbed his arm. "Country needs you,

too. It needs us all." And I said, "Sir,

I'm begging you not to. Why don't you

just put this bill that you call your

American Rescue Plan? Put it in the

jurisdictional committees and let us

work it. Give us a shot clock. Say,

"Guys, I'm going to give you 60 days to

work this these bills." Then if you They

don't because they just don't want you

to have any success at all. Do what you

got to do then. Oh, no. Got to do it

now, Joe. Got to go. Got to go. Okay.

So, we go. And then we shut it down

there for about 12 or 14 hours one day

cuz I thought they lost their mind. They

wanted to expand the unemployment

benefits. I said, "Do you understand

what you're dealing with now? you got

inflation coming at you so hard because

people have been cooped up. We've sent

everybody a check. And I told him this,

he kind of giggled. I said, I said, "Mr.

President, we've sent everybody a check.

And if we've missed anybody, it was by

mistake cuz you intended to send

everybody a damn check." And I said,

"They want to go spend money and there's

nobody working. The supply chains are

shut down. There's nothing. They're

going to pay exorbitant amounts to get

what they want. You're just fueling it,

sir." Oh god. We went through all of

that and he that's when he got pretty

vulgar and just told me I'm going to

you're going to you know if you you kill

my effing bill

I'll never talk to you again. I said if

I could kill this

>> if I could kill this effing bill you

shouldn't talk to me again because if I

could I would but I can't the way you

things is moving but I can tell you

we're never going to go this way route

again.

>> So this is how we work kind of work

things out. Then sure enough one month

they come back with BBB.

>> Yeah. build back better. Now they're

talking $6 trillion. That bill was 10

trillion if it was a penny with all the

revamping. I couldn't get there, guys.

And I told him, I said, "Mr. President,

I'm sorry, man. I can't get there." And

they tried for eight months, beat up on

me. I mean, I had to have security.

>> What is that? What is that like? Like,

what does the pressure campaign look

like? It's because it's not just the

president exactly as you write in the

book. It's people showing up at the

house. It's people with little kayaks

with protest signs around your boat.

It's pretty intense.

>> It's pretty intense. But I can tell you

one thing. When every day uh the Capitol

police call you and says your death

threats are serious enough right now, so

we have to have, you know, we'll meet

you down at where you live and we'll

bring you to work and we'll take you

back home. You know, things are pretty

serious. I never wanted to know the

extent, but I knew they were serious.

And then one time they said, "This is

really getting serious now because now

we got things. They know where your

children go to school. They know where

your grandchildren are, where your kids

live." And I'm thinking, "Oh my god,

this is crazy." And then I had a bunch

of Boers come down, canoers. I had I got

attacked by canoes. And I just said,

"Guys, listen. We just disagree." It was

all climate people. And I said, "Listen,

I I want a clean climate. I just know we

need energy to run our country, and

there's got to be a balance." And uh so

I said, "Come up to my office." They

said, "What?" I said, "Come to my office

tomorrow. We can sit and talk. You don't

have to be out here in the water." But

they thought that was the show they put

on. But they came the next day. We

talked. We agreed to disagree on some

things and we agreed on some things.

>> But Joe Joe, I just want to understand

though, like do do you think that these

are just random acts or do you think

that it's it's an organized pressure

campaign?

>> I think it was organized. They were paid

Shamath because a lot of my friends who

live on the down at the river on the

PTOIC River with me on the boat they

they played like how can I get a job

with you? How can I do this if I want to

protest? They say oh just sign up and

get $15 an hour. I couldn't believe it.

I couldn't believe it. They were telling

me that.

>> But doesn't the message have to go from

the White House? Like doesn't Biden's

team somebody has to say like

>> oh no Ron I'm going to be honest with

you. strong claim, okay? Smart guy, good

guy and everything, but he had gone so

far to the left and he pushed Joe left

cuz I kept telling

>> when I first went over to the White

House, I said, "Mr. President," I says,

"You have the most liberal staff that

I've ever seen." First time I went over.

>> And he said, "Well, Joe, they tell me I

have the most diversified staff." I

said, "We're not talking about

diversity, sir. We're talking about bat

crazy. We're talking about people I've

known, I've worked with in the hallway

forever, [snorts] and I know where they

came and where they worked before. These

are people real far left. And Ron put

that team together. And I I know that

because I kept saying that your staff is

pushing you too far left, Mr. President.

You've never been that far left.

>> Right.

>> And I just Someone says about, you know,

I've I've always liked Joe Biden. We

always got along well. Good man.

>> I just don't think he lost the will to

fight.

>> Okay. Do you think it's that or can I

can I just ask you all of these rumors,

the comments about the autopen, the

mental faculties?

>> Never saw that. Never. and I've been

with him a lot. Okay, we always had good

conversations. Now, with that said, I

just said, I know how much energy it

takes if you've got to fight with your

staff every day to do the things you

want rather than the staff saying,

"We'll take care of that, Mr.

President." Because I would ask him, we

agree on something, and I'd ask him a

week or two later, and nothing had

happened. So, I know there was no

followup. You follow? So, I knew Ron was

kind of driving the train. And and uh

with that, I'll tell you how this thing

came to to a head. They didn't. I said,

"I'm not voting to get on the BBB." And

this goes on for a while. There's just

pressure and pressure me and they need

my vote to even get on reconciliation.

>> Right. Right.

>> So, it finally came down to I said, you

know, you've got some good things in

that BBB bill. The one thing you really

need is infrastructure. Remember the

bipartisan infrastructure bill?

>> Yeah.

>> I said, this country, we haven't done

anything for 30 years. I said, why don't

you just let's pull that bill out. So,

Schumer being the person he is, he said,

I'll tell you what I'll do, Joe. I'll

pull that bill out. And I said, "Let me

work that bill, Chuck." And I said,

"We'll get you a good bill and it'll be

bipartisan. I'll show you can be done

bipartisan." He says, "I'll tell you

what. I'll do that and pull that out if

you'll vote to get on BBB."

So, the reason I'm leading up to this,

that's when people say, "Well, Joe

promised to vote for it." I never

promised to vote for BBB. I says, "I'll

get on and let you work the bill. I'm

never going to be for this bill."

So anyway, we get we we get the be we

get the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

We work it and we pass it and the night

we're passing the bill sitting on the

Senate floor, Bernie Sanders says, "Come

over and talk to me, Joe." And I sit

down. He said, "Joe, are you going to

vote for this BBB bill?" And I said,

"Hell no, Bernie. You know, I was never

been for that bill." And he says, "Well,

at least you're being honest with me." I

said, "I've been honest with everybody."

I said, "You guys want to work it until

the cows come home? That's fine. I can't

do this."

>> And he says, "You know, I've cut it down

from six some from 6 trillion to three

Detroit. I says, Bernie, you and I know

the game that's played here. You didn't

cut it down. All you did was cut the

timing down from 10 years to 5 years or

3 years to make it look like you were

cutting them out. You know, they're

never going to get rid of any of this

once you start giving everything away,

>> right?

>> Went through all of that. So, he says,

you know, I can kill this bill. And I'm

thinking at first when he said that, I

says,

"Well, Bernie, if you're saying you can

kill the bill here in the Senate and and

you're and and Vermont doesn't need any

infrastructure, your bridge, roads and

bridges, internet connections, your your

water and sewer line, everything's

great, then you should vote against it."

He said, "No, I'm not talking about

here, Joe. I'm talking about on the

other side in the House with all the

liberals or the progressives over

there." So, I didn't think of anything.

We passed it that night and boom, the

bill gets held up. You remember that?

>> They kept getting held up and they kept

sending the president up there to talk

to him and pass the bill

>> and they wouldn't pass it and they kept

saying Mansion lied to us. And I said,

"Shumer, you better tell them the truth.

You know exactly how you got on this

bill and you know I never ever said I

would ever vote for this bill."

>> Let me Joe, if it's possible, I want to

just go a little bit back and I want to

start with Obama. So you wrote in the

book that Trump was the most engaged

president you ever worked with and that

in the first I

>> said two of them two two

>> two of them okay and then

>> Clinton Bill Clinton

>> if you told me people that are engaging

with you and talk Bill and uh and

President Trump

>> and then you said in the first two years

you spoke with Trump more than you ever

did under eight years of Obama.

>> Correct. Correct. contrast and compare

Obama and Trump for us and just help us

understand the positives and negatives

of both as you saw it. I think pres

President Barack Obama is a very good

man, you know, and and but his politics,

I knew him when he was a US senator

representing Illinois and he knew about

the coal industry and I you of course I

come from the coal industry being

governor of West Virginia and growing up

in in the coal fields and we talked

about fossil and why we needed this that

and everything. He wanted me to help him

and vote for something that would help

his called uh uh future gen, which is

the new uh coal fired plant that was

going to be uh CO2 capture and all this

and that. They called it back. That was

a billion. It was a billion dollar

project. The government was sponsoring

and I told him I couldn't participate. I

was one of the four states I pulled out

and put my support behind and they got

it. Never built the plant, but they got

the the award. So, I knew he knew it.

And then all of a sudden he becomes a

number he becomes the the nominee from

the Democratic party and switched

everything to to renewables.

And I'm thinking, well, what are we

going to do with all the things that the

coal miners have done and all we've done

for our country? Does that mean you're

going to bring new jobs or this or that?

There was no plan to replace any

opportunities to live the quality of

life and to live where they wanted to

live with it their culture and and and

who we are and family oriented in the

Appalachia.

And boy, I'll tell you, we had a meeting

about one year afterwards and I was uh

in the National Governance Association

leadership and we had Democrats and

Republicans. I finally got a meeting

with him in the Roosevelt room and I'll

never forget that.

and uh and we were going around the

table and different governors were

speaking. He came to me and I says, "Mr.

President, you've done one hell of a

good job at villainizing Cole." And he

jumped up and it went nuts on me. I'm

thinking, "Woo boy, here we go."

[laughter] And he said, "Why would you

say something like that?" And I said,

"Because it's true." I says, "You have

basically put benchmarks that we can't

make because there's no technology that

we can get our industry to meet those

that gives you the right to shut it And

he made a statement, if you recall, go

ahead and build a coal fired plant and

we'll break you. He knew that we

technology wasn't there. So I'm

thinking, Christ, what happened? You're

leaving us behind.

>> These people have nothing. They and they

they said, "What happened to the West

Virginia Democrats?" I said, "I tell you

exactly what happened. They ran them

off.

>> Now all of a sudden they've done

everything like a returning Vietnam

veteran. We've done everything our

country's asked. Now all of a sudden

we're not good enough, clean enough,

green enough, or smart enough. They hell

with them. Just don't." by the wayside.

So you remember the slogan don't leave

anybody behind. At least Joe Biden

picked up that slogan in 2020 and he has

did done a lot of things there trying to

have incentives to bring businesses into

coal country if you will.

>> So is it that Obama is just a an

incredibly

strategic political calculator?

>> He was elusive.

>> He's elucid.

>> What does that mean as a politician?

>> I don't know. I mean, I just, you know,

when I talked to Bill Clinton, you know,

it's always, it was always what about

this and he was always so inquisitive

about this and that, what I was thinking

about this and that. Then we always had

a couple good jokes to tell each other

and kind of broke eye, you know, we had

a lot of fun. And with with and with

President Donald Trump, you know, you go

meet him, he's charming as can be.

>> Sits down, talks with you. He says,

"Hey, Joe, what about this?

>> What about that?" No. And you know, we

talk about a lot of things. And then one

time I told, "Mr. president, just call

me last. I was the only Democrat he was

talking to. Come over, have breakfast,

come over lunch or do whatever, come to

a movie. And uh had a lot of fun and and

I said, "Just call me last." He said,

"Why you say that?" I said, "I don't

know who in the hell you talk to last,

but that seems what happens. I'd like to

have one of those dates."

less stuff. So, a lot of your this

profiling courage around spending

and entitlements

in the book you talk about comes from

this rugged individualism,

personal responsibility.

>> Accountability.

>> Yeah. And this accountability that you

grew up with.

>> Yeah. As a as a Catholic as well. You I

had that as well. A little bit of guilt

if you don't work hard as well sprinkled

in there to as a back stop. We're

looking at a country now where it seems

uh the the operating principle is how do

I get mine? Hey, you got something. I

need to get something. And now you've

got Mandami in New York.

>> He's going to give free pizza and bagels

and bus trips and whatever it is,

whatever people want, he's going to give

it to them for free.

>> Yeah. You have not been able to failed

in some ways to turn this around in the

country this entitlement as many of us

have who have been screaming from the

rooftops like ask not you talk about

this in the book ask not what your

country can do for you what can you do

for your country you bring it up and

over again

>> so I think we failed in the last two

decades and socialism's on the rise why

is that how do we turn it around

>> let me just say the last at the BBB the

last time President Trump President uh

Biden I had met where He calls me up

into the White House and he takes me up

in stairs to the living quarters and boy

but when you go up there that's really

going to the woodshed if you will and we

were talking and everything and I said

Mr. President I can't get there. I

really can't get there sir.

>> And I said you know you and I are both

at the same vintage. You're a little bit

older but not that much. I said we're

we're in the same vintage. And I said, I

remember very vividly as a 13-year-old

kid watching television, inauguration

196 of John Kennedy asked not what your

country can do for you, what you can do

for your country.

If we pass this piece of legislation,

you're asking me to vote for the BBB,

>> you're changing the psychic to the

nation of how much more can my country

do for me? I wasn't born that way. I

wasn't raised that way. I don't believe

that way, and I can't do it. You could

put a gun to my head and say, "I'm gonna

pull it pull the trigger. I can't vote

for it."

>> [clears throat]

>> And then all hell broke loose after

that. So how it happened is this. My my

grandmother took everybody in. Okay? We

lived by the railroad tracks between the

creek and the railroad tracks in a

little three- room garage apartment. And

my grandparents had a little home right

beside us. She took everybody in. I

never knew. I just watched and I I was

eldest of the of the boys of about 20 of

us grandkids. We had to whitewash her

basement, keep it clean and a nice place

for people to stay. There was no social

social network back in the 50s.

[clears throat] We had people that would

ride the train. You can call what you

want to. These were people that fallen

out of society. They were all

intelligent, smart craftsman, this and

that. And they they and alcoholics

probably most of them. And they'd come

down. They knew he could go off and go

to a mama and she'd take care of them.

She said, "I got three rules.

Can't you can't uh you can't drink.

>> You can't swear. and you've got to work.

So my first introduction was there was

rules and they were all good rules.

>> Pretty basic operating system.

>> Okay. So you know what after about a

while they'd be we had some of the best

painters and carpenters you ever seen

but we'd lose them every now and then. I

said okay we had names for everybody. We

had Willbar Willie Pegle Peggy. You name

it we [laughter] had them. They were all

characters.

>> Oh peg leg peggy especially.

>> He had a peg firecracker. He had a peg

leg, a wooden peg leg, [laughter]

>> and he got caught in the was in my

building. He got caught in the tracks

one time. We had to pull him out.

>> Anyway,

>> so I said, "Mom, okay, what happened to

Dloid? Where'd Lloyd go?" "Oh, honey,

he's on a toot again." And you know the

toot was always the bottle. And when you

see the old-timers on the tooth, they go

like this. Uh and I says, she said,

"Don't worry, honey. He'll be back in

six weeks." And he just the cycle. That

was it. So I learned that my grandfather

people come in and papa, my grandfather

never kept books. He just kept all his

money in his pocket. He worked. That's

how he worked. Immigrant from Italy. And

papa say, "Uh, they come and say, "Hey

pop, no matter who they were, "Hey papa,

can I borrow five? Can I have five?" He

said, "Sure, honey." Called everybody

honey. He said, "Here's a broom and

shovel. Go up and clean the parking lot

and I'll give you the five." I

understood you had to do something for

the five. Okay.

>> Right.

>> He he says they say, "Papa, I'll be

right back." He looked at me and he

smiled. He said, "Don't worry, Joe." He

said, "Only about half of them take me

up on it." So I knew I knew you had to

do something. Now that's

>> that's a filtering mechanism.

>> Yeah.

>> And it relates directly to your belief

though in

>> having a work requirement.

>> I wanted a work requirement for anybody

capable able-bodied to work. And here's

the thing. They got on me said MMsion's

killing child tax credits. I says I'm

killing child tax credits.

>> Right.

>> First of all, you have child tax credits

up to $400,000 of income. You really

want to know who needs the child tax

credits? people right above the poverty

guideline, mostly single females, above

25,000 a year up to about 75. They need

it, okay? And they're working. Please

help them. Okay? And I'd go into all of

this, Jason and Shimoth, and then and

then they and they said, "Oh, no. We got

to do this, that, across the board." I

said, ' Don't you think that rather than

just sending checks to people that have

children that don't work and won't work

and sitting at home, why would they need

child care money when they're sitting

home with their ch children? I said,

that makes no sense to me at all. I

can't go home and explain it. And my

northstar has been this as long as I've

been in political life. if I can't go

back to my little hometown of Farmington

or the people I grew up with and explain

it cuz I knew they wouldn't let me get

by with anything. They'd hold your feet

to the fire and that's where that's how

it is and never changed.

>> Do you think that we're now in sort of

this intractable period where there

can't be any centism? There can't be

this idea that you work and then you

earn something that there's that dignity

of work. Instead, it's these extremes

that are constantly about what giveaway

can I give to people to get them on my

side. Is that where we are?

>> Let me give you the other thing about me

and Bernie one time talking and Bernie

wanted free tuition, right? Always

wanted free tuition and then they

finally they thought, well, we got we'll

get it free if we go junior colleges. I

says, I'm not for anything free. I'm for

earning it. Here's what I'm going to

tell you. If first they talked about

free college. I says I says Bernie my

son's at that time 40ome years old. I

said my son's 40 years old. If you had

free education, free tuition, he'd still

be in school. He liked it [laughter] so

much. I said he liked it so much he'd

still be there

>> later. [laughter]

>> So anyway, I said no, I'm not for that.

And I so I said, let me tell you about

free. If we if we identified skill sets

that we're need and we can teach them in

junior colleges,

have them sign up, get a Stafford loan,

guaranteed federal loan, they don't pay

it back until basically, you know, until

they finish their education. So, if they

finish in two years, they took a

Stafford loan, they took what they

needed to get educated on, they took a

Stafford loan in a two-year community

college, they get a degree in a skill

set, we forgive it. They've earned it.

You didn't give it on the front end.

Because let me tell you what happens on

the front end. Only half of them ever

get through maybe a 25%. You know, they

go for four years, you know, and you I

don't know if you know how they give

money. There's no financial literacy

required at all.

>> You all have to do is show the income of

your family and you're they have a a

scale they go by or you can get 12,000 a

year. You might only need four. I'll

guarantee you. You tell a kid that comes

from poverty and you tell them they can

get 12,000, they'll take it all.

>> They're going to take it all. They don't

know what they don't know what acred

interest is. They don't know about

paying this back. It's a death trap.

They don't know any of that. They drop

out in two years for one reason or

another. Then it all comes due. They had

had a payment up until then.

>> No one's explaining anything. And I said

told Elizabeth Warren, I says, "Liz,

can't we just change the Stafford

program to where you have to have

financial literacy? You cannot get a

loan without financial literacy."

>> What was her answer?

>> I It didn't happen. Let's just put it

that Yeah, put it that way. What what's

driving I mean I understand populism, I

understand trying to buy votes, but what

at the core in your opinion drives these

individuals who think that not learning

to sustain yourself in society and to

get all of these freebies?

What's in their mind? What are they

missing about just the basic human

condition that we have to work for

stuff? the the human operating system is

we need challenges and when you don't

have purpose in life it's it's a road

it's that's the primrose path it's not a

a good place to go you know I don't mind

it's devil's playground as my

grandmother would say rest in peace

>> let me say to both of you all about what

has happened in this political process

and I've come to the conclusion we need

to have term limits and I'm going to

tell you how I came to that conclusion

when I was a governor I was doing a town

hall meeting in southern west Virginia a

little lady got stood up in the back and

she said Joe I wish you were for term

limit And I said, "Well, tell me why,

Suz." I I knew her and Susie, I said,

"Tell me why." She says, "Well, I just

think this would be it'd be better for

us to have turnover." And I says, and I

wasn't for it. And I I gave her all the

reasons. I said, "You're going to lose

your most experienced people with the

talent and know how." Boom, boom, boom.

I went through everything. She said,

"Joe, think of it this way. If we had

term limits, maybe we get one good term

out of you."

I had no comeback. She convinced me

right there. And from that point on,

I've been for term limits. And I'm more

for it today than I've ever been for it.

And I'm I'm And the reason I'm telling

you, yeah, maybe we'd get one good term

where you'd have the courage to do the

conviction with the oath you took to

defend and protect the Constitution, do

the job, put country before party, quit

playing this game, quit worrying about

getting reelected. And it's gotten to

the point now public service truly when

he said John Kennley says the most

noblest of all profession public service

that's gone. It's fame and fortune now.

I get in there I can keep turnurning it

and churn it and churning it. And I've

just said that basically the Senate two

six-year terms is enough. 12 years is

enough.

>> Let's actually look inside the political

parties for one second.

>> Oh boy.

>> Let's start with maybe an easy one, but

it's actually quite maybe a nuanced

answer. Tell us who you think are the

two most

dynamic senators, one Democrat, one

Republican.

>> I was thinking about that because if I

was you, I would have been asking the

same question. I I can I can name six or

seven on both sides.

>> Oh, please. Yeah, let's take

>> Yeah, let's go.

>> And when I'm saying that, people that

I've worked with, I know I know their

DNA. Okay.

>> Yeah. First of all, I'm going to always

be always be u differential to former

governors.

A governor can't afford to be a governor

of one side. And I'll give you the most

perfect simplest answer to that is that

pothole that busted my tire and

basically bent my rim and messed my car

up did not have a Democrat or Republican

name on it.

>> But I was responsible for making sure

the repairs on the roads didn't do that.

Okay. So you like Senator King, Angus

King from Maine, former governor. You

have Mark Warner, Virginia, former

governor. Tim Kaine, former governor.

You have Jean Shaheen, former governor.

Maggie Hassan, former governor. You have

Mike Rounds, former governor. John

Hovind, former governor. Lisa Marowsky

and Susan Collins were always my go-to

people on the Republican side. And Mitt

Romney, two of three of the best of the

best. You could always work with them

because they were always looking to do

the right thing. They didn't care about

politics. And then I always had you got

Senator Cortez Masto, you have uh you

know there's so many Jackie Rosen on the

Tom Tillis on the on the Senate side on

the Republican side. Bill Cassidy is one

of the best of the best. Bill Cassidy is

bright, sharp, always wanting to do the

right thing, always very very articulate

and he will get down to the nitty-gritty

and go into the depths of it to find out

an answer. And you got Mike Rounds,

former governor, great guy. South

Dakota. These are people that I know

have the ability to do it, to make it

happen. You just got to push, push,

push. I was asked a question the other

day, uh, Shamath, about what would you

do, Joe, if you were still there? If I

was king for a day and I had the ability

to use the Roosevelt room in the White

House, I'd bring him over. I'd put him

in the room. I'd put Schumer and put

John Thun and put his their teams

together and say, "Guys, you're not

getting out till you come to a deal.

This is not that hard." Here's what

we're not Everybody's wanting to blame.

Who's whose fault is it? Let's let's

look at whose responsibility it is. Not

fault. Whose responsibility?

My friends in the Republican party have

the trifecta.

President's Republican, House is

Republican, Senate's Republican. You

have the mantle. You have the agavel.

You've got to keep the keep the train

running. You got to keep this place

open. And I've said this, I know that

the president has the ability to do

that.

But you you can't always have politics

driving the end result to do your job,

and that's to keep it open. But I've

never voted for a shutdown. I've gotten

caught in a couple shutdowns, but I

never voted for them. and they're tough

to get out of because people get

ingrained and get they get in like

there's se feeder and cement can't get

out. So I think the president has to

move this and I've said this our great

country and the president with his

leadership over in the Middle East is

able to get Hamas and the Israelis to

sit down and make a deal. Surely to God

I know the president can get a Democrat

and Republicans to make a deal. I know

that. But everybody's got to quit

playing the politics because of what the

what the outcome of the 26 election.

It'll take care of itself.

>> Which group hates each other more,

>> Democrats, Republicans, or

>> Oh, that's a good question. Yeah,

>> I was going to say like which one hates

each other more in your opinion.

>> It's a shame. Let me tell this is such

an easy lift. You know what happened

with this healthcare thing?

>> I was right in the middle of this whole

thing. I know exactly when they did the

Affordable Care Act and you remember in

2017 that um John McCain made the famous

vote voted down. Okay. Yep. Yep.

>> I was in the back hallway when all that

unfolded back of the Senate before John

came out and made his vote and John been

getting pressured heavily by the White

House President Trump and his staff by

that at that time. John finally walked

out and getting ready to walk out and he

was sitting there and I came through the

hallway and I said, "John, listen. I'm

not crazy about this Affordable Care Act

the way it you have to be forced to buy

a product whether you like it or not.

You can't shop it and you're fine if you

don't. The penalties makes no sense. I

said, "But John, if the Republicans have

anything they can give us, I probably

support it and vote for it. They don't

have anything to replace it with." And

what it did do, it helped it helped poor

working people that that were that were

using the emergency room and were using

workers compensation for the only

deliveries that they had for uh for

their health care. So, and then

pre-existing condition, we stopped that

from being eliminated from the process.

So, people could get for the first time

any type of care. So, that was good, but

somebody had to pay for it. So, they

switched it. Once you got above the 150

percentile of poverty, then you were hit

pretty hard to pay for what we're giving

away on this end. That means you have a

broken system. Sooner or later, you got

to fix the system. And no one was

willing to fix it. They're just moving

it around. So the Democrats when COVID

hit, hot dog, that's our time to shine

now. Let's go ahead. And man, they went

to 400% and even greater,

>> right?

>> Republicans are saying, can't we just

get back, which is a normal thing. Can

you get back to precoid? Well, it's hard

to take something back, Jason and

Shimoth, once you you got up there

because now what you can do is say,

"Okay, for one year, we're going to

extend this for one year. We're going to

come from 400 to 200. We're going to

gradually get back and we're going to

try to fix our delivery system of health

care. The insurance companies, insurance

companies are running health care. It's

not the professional doctors, the

professional healthcare. It's insurance

telling you what you can, what you

can't, what you're paying for, chasing

the dollars.

>> That has to change, but someone has to

be willing to do it. So, that's where we

are. There's a an issue, Joe, which is

that they're also talking about the

unintended consequences of the cost we

have to bear for folks that don't have a

legal immigration status, right? That

there's

>> a burden that that includes.

[clears throat]

Can you give us your opinion on and you

can expand immigration whatever

>> immigration and but maybe you can start

with the healthcare because I think

that's the that's the wedge issue that

seems to be slowing everybody down and

maybe give us a

>> Well, the Democrats are telling you that

that that it's that's not in there that

im that illegal immigrants who've come

to this country are not getting the

benefits of of of uh the citizens of our

country when they hit hard times. And

people will say, "Well, why did you

write this this this in in your uh in

your um declaration of what you want

done as far as to bring the, you know,

to bring it back and let's get going

again." You put that in one of your

demands.

There's some reference to that in the

demand. So, it kind of showed what their

intentions were. The bottom line is is

that no, there's no way immigrants that

come here illegally and don't have a

pathway forward or we've been, you know,

into a working pathway forward. Uh that

should ever happen. You should never be

able to have benefits coming here. That

should not be attraction for that. And

that's what they're saying had happened.

I beg the Democrats, are you crazy about

doing asylum at the border? We've never

done that.

>> Mhm. We had a 2013 piece of legislation

by bipartisanship at that time. It was a

bipartisan gang of eight to put it

together and we passed it with 68 or 69

votes in the Senate. Senate to the

House. John Boehner, I beg John Boehner

to put it on the floor. I like John

Boehner. He's a friend of mine. John

says, "Joe, I can't put it on. Eric

Caner just got defeated in Richmond

because a person from the far right

accused Eric Caner for supporting this

immigration reform." and they said it's

amnesty and by God, anybody that came

here the wrong way has got to get out of

here. We got to send them back. That

bill that we put together in a

bipartisan way that basically gave you

so many days, let's say 60, 90 days or

more, I forget the the term right the

amount right now to go to the courthouse

and turn yourself in, pay a fine for

misdemeanor. Let's say it was $750. And

then you would get in the back of the

queue. Well, once you turned yourself

in, we would know if you had any

criminal record or not. Then we knew how

who to go after because those people

been here for 10, 20, 30 years. They

brought little children here now who are

adults serving in the military and

basically professing teaching in our

schools. These are productive,

supportive. They love the country as

much if not more than Americans that

were born here. So, this is what gets

me. We had that bill and couldn't get it

because they were afraid that he would

lose the right. He lost them anyway. The

far right wasn't going. Tea Party at

that time wasn't going to go. But John

could have put it on the floor and it

would have passed. And I think if you

talk to John,

>> do you think Americans would be shocked

if we really knew the inner workings to

understand that at the end of the day,

bipartisan coalitions and reforms

literally stop on a dime on all number

of issues because a person one day

interprets and reads the tea leaves and

says yes, no, yes, no. Is that mean is

that really basically what happens?

>> Well, let's let's look at here. Let me

give you the most the easiest thing we

could have done with uh uh there's two

things. Don't ask, don't tell. And then

you have uh the DOBS act as far as on on

uh uh

abortion. Okay. With the Supreme Court.

>> Sure.

>> Well, the Supreme Court, you know, on

that we've lived uh with Roie Wade for

50 years of unprecedented law. It was

unprecedented law. I mean 50. We never

codified it through the legislature, but

the courts it was precedented. Now all

of a sudden that blows apart and

everybody gets torn apart. All they had

to do was just codify Roe vie Wade.

That's all we had to do. And I I teamed

up with Lisa Marowsky and and Susan

Collins and we had a bill that all we

did simply codify. It wasn't it wasn't

pro-life enough and it wasn't pro-choice

enough. But it's something we learned to

navigate for 50 years. Well, guess what?

Our Democrat friends wanted to open up

wide wide open abortions up. Okay, they

can tell you what they want, what they

intended, but that's exactly what they

were trying to do. And I told him, I

says, I called him out. I says, "Are you

going to try to explain to people to

make them believe what you this piece of

legislation you're trying to put through

on the freedom of choice is going to be

uh just codifying Roie Wayade? That is

so insincere and I will not have any

part of it." And then the Republicans

want to just double down. I mean, make

it crim criminalizing abortions. We

couldn't because of politics and and

I've seen things like that that we had

it right in the palm of our hand and let

it slip through and we could have done

that and that's on the we could have

done the immigration uh and right now

you'd never be in this immigration fact.

A lot of this history gets swept under

the rug because nobody really knows what

was possible because people like you

typically don't leave and then write a

book like this to kind of just share all

of it. And then part of it is then when

you do share unless people like us help

amplify these stories, it's never said

and it's never it's never really well

understood.

>> The biggest problem, Shimarth, is this.

Very few people who have been in

political life and had any notoriety at

all have a they they have almost an

impossible

time of saying, "I got it wrong. I made

a mistake.

>> I tried. I thought I had the answers,

but I didn't. I misread that one." You

How many times have you heard anybody in

politics today or have been in politics

can still say that I screwed up royally

on don't ask don't tell? And I'll tell

you why. I was there my first 2011. All

the joint chiefs of staff were there and

explaining and Obama wanted to get rid

of it. Okay? Because before everybody uh

kind of kept a don't ask don't tell.

That was a Bill Clinton thing. Let's

let's let's let let bygones be bygones.

Let let the sleeping dog lie. Well, it

came out now. Obama wanted to get rid of

it. Okay. And then I'm listening to

everybody talk. It got down to the

comedant of the Marines and the Marine

comedant said, "Listen, General." He

says, "I've got 50% of my troops on the

battle line right now. This is a heck of

a policy change. Could jeopardize the

welfare and well-being of my troops."

So, I was against it. I said, "Don't get

rid of it." No. No. That means if you

were, you know, if you were known uh to

be uh gay, then you could not serve. I

was totally wrong on that because it

they went ahead and passed it. Thank

goodness. And then I found out that it

didn't change anything. Everybody

already knew. Everybody knew who was who

and what their pre sexual preferences

were. It didn't affect their their

ability to fight or defend our country.

So, I made a mistake. I got that wrong

>> and I lived up to it. And I said, "I

made a mistake. I'm sorry, but I thought

I was doing the right thing listening to

a professional." So, those things

happen. But I I don't know how we get to

that. And that's why I kept saying if we

had two six-year terms for a senator,

six two-year terms from a House member,

one 18-year term for the United States

Supreme Court, and one six-year term for

the president, maybe we could all do a

better job by not worrying about the

next election.

>> You know, as we get towards the end of

our time, I want to talk to you a little

bit about how dysfunctional and

unpopular

uh the Democrats and the Republicans

have been the last couple of years since

Nixon. Uh I think Trump's first and

second term both uh you know 30 I think

he's about 37% approval rating right

now. Uh Biden ended with like 34%. He

was averaging about 40%. People really

are not happy with their choices and

there's a no labels group. I've been

kind of mocked and dismissed here on

this very podcast talking about I think

there's a perfect time for a third

party. And uh you know we had Ross

Perau, people forget he got 19% I

believe of the uh popular vote. You are

in my camp.

>> You believe there's a possibility and

that we're primed for it. Give your um

give your best um explanation of why you

think now is the time for a third party

to challenge these two extremely

unpopular parties.

>> Jason, we've got to change the process

of how we know you have a duopoly right

now. The duopoly is a business monopoly

almost, but it's a duopoly. You have the

corporation of the Republican and the

corporation of the Democrat and that's a

business mode and they can control the

flow. So how do you control the flow? By

the primaries you can say well it's by

redistricting and all this. It's really

the primary process. The primary process

is this. I cannot being a no party

affiliate right now an independent

that's that's my registration. If I want

to vote for a friend of mine who's a

Republican in West Virginia, the

Republican party in West Virginia will

not let me vote in their primary unless

I register Republican. The Democrats do

the same all over the country. They do

that. they close them down cuz if they

can control the flow and you have maybe

during a uh let's say the 2024 election

let's say 24 million people maybe 11 or

12 on each side DNR

participated in the p national primary

but 160 million of us voted in the

general election

but 24 million people made a decision on

our choices that's it [clears throat]

>> and what I've said this is our democracy

is still a experiment we thought we

could govern Ourel and by governing

yourself that means we can pick

representatives that represent us. I

can't even vote. So how am I I can't

participate.

>> 45 to 50% of us can't participate in the

primary process. We're the largest

nomination of of registered voters who

can't participate.

>> You're referring, of course,

independence.

>> Independence. No party affiliation.

Independence. There's only about 23 24%

that are registered Democrats. about 27

28 I think registered Republicans. The

rest are like myself. And I said,

>> "Wait a minute. The the the Voting

Rights Act, they took that, you know, to

the court uh about the African-Americans

not having the right to participate and

vote and they won that one. Why don't we

take this to court? Why don't we do this

on this podcast? You all take off with

it and run with it. It should be we're

not I am not able to be represented and

I can't pick a representative cuz I

can't participate.

>> Let me just summarize what you're

saying. You think there's a legal avenue

under the Voting Rights Act that says

what we really need is first pass the

post or some form of electoral form.

Otherwise, if you just do it via these

primaries, we're getting

disenfranchised. My position is this

that the majority of people who are

registered to participate in a general

election in the United States of America

are are basically prevented from

participating in the primary process of

electing who you're going to vote for in

the general. I think there definitely is

a court procedure that could could

remedy this and basically stop these

closed primaries.

>> Mhm.

>> Let's talk about 26 just specifically.

What do you think happens in the Senate

and the House? What is the balance of

power in your mind coming out of the

2016 election?

>> The only thing I have I have said and I

will continue to say this because my

Republican friends are the only ones

that are saying we will not get rid of

the filibuster in the United States

Senate.

And I hold that I hold them to their

word. These are my friends, John John

Thun and his and his staff and and all

of his people on his leadership team.

And I hope the Republicans keep the

Senate.

Now, for that, if you want a little bit

of balance of power to change challenge

a little bit, calm it down a little bit,

then you'd want the Democrats to win the

House, the Congress.

And if that could happen, then it might

calm it down. We've got to calm it down.

We got to we got to turn down the

temperature. And if that would turn it

down, maybe fine because when you have

the trifecta, you can keep throwing

stuff up there and pushing things pretty

darn hard. Joe, I know that Jason has a

final question, which I'll let him do,

but I want to I want to give you my

question.

>> Okay.

>> Let's start with from when you went into

the Senate to now when you're leaving.

Yeah.

>> President Obama, then President Trump,

then President Biden, and now President

Trump.

>> Give us the expectation

versus the outcome

on what you've seen from these four

presidential terms, if you will.

expectation versus outcome for for these

four periods.

>> Expectation on Obama was was that he was

bringing a complete different scenario

to it. an all-inclusive scenario as you

will every now it was possibility for

all of us to participate no matter what

your gender what your race were boom

boom boom so with that we were expecting

an awful lot and I think he had a lot of

compassion but he just it just didn't

communicate well with the legislature I

didn't know that because I didn't serve

with him until I got there at the end of

2010 2011 and I could see you've got to

participate you've got to get involved

you got to call them over to the White

House and work him. I thought he could

have done a lot more with that to get

better participation. And basically, we

got rid. They got rid of the filibuster.

We lost the filibuster for the uh judges

judicial system and I wasn't upset by

losing him for basically appointments

that were will and pleasure, but it went

further than that. So, that I think that

help that hap helped erode a lot of the

checks and balances we had. Then it went

further after that, too. So, with that

being said, then you go right in from

there. And then we have uh Trump. We

didn't know what to expect, but we were

thinking, here's a businessman

always told us how successful and things

of this we were expecting some things.

And I I met with him from day one and

when 2016

uh and talked to him and then I met with

him 2017 2018 and there's a cute thing

in the book there when you go through my

book about he said he wasn't going to

campaign against me in 2018. He liked

me. I'm his friend. Well, he ended up

coming six times to my state and they

spent an extra 25 million trying to beat

me. And then afterwards, he calls me one

week later, "Come have lunch with me."

And I walk in, he says, "I told you we

couldn't beat him." And I'm thinking,

"Well, Jesus, what the hell am I going

to say?" It wasn't for lack of trying.

He says, "Oh, Joe, you know I didn't

want to beat you." I says, "I knew you

weren't serious, Mr. President. If you

were serious, you'd have spent 50

million and came 12 times."

So, [laughter]

so that's what I'm dealing with. But a

lot of the things he did, I was more in

sync with what he was doing because he

understood we had to have an all-in

energy policy.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, and I still would tell him, I

said, "Mr. President, we need

everything. We need oil. We need gas. We

need coal. We need to use the

technology." I said, "You cannot

eliminate your way to clean environment.

You can innovate it, but you can't

eliminate it. You've got to use

technology." Boom. So, he was more in

tune with what I was trying to push

through than my Democrat base was and

the people I was working with. And then

we have Joe Biden who I had an awful lot

of, oh man, here's a guy I've worked

with for a long time. And in Joe Biden,

when there was a shutdown with Ted Cruz

in 2013, I'll never forget this. It was

Biden uh Obama sends Joe Biden to make a

deal. Open this government up, get a

deal done. Joe Biden goes directly to

Mitch McConnell, sits down, old buddies

and old friends. They cut a deal. We

open the Cong We open the government

back up. And I went into caucus the next

the next week. go in the caucus with the

Democrats. And uh Harry Reid says, "I

told President Obama, don't ever send

that damn Joe Biden back to make a deal.

We don't want him here at all making a

deal for Democrats." Now he's the

president. Okay. Going to be the

president. I think, boy, we got it now.

And boy, was that a let down. Went far

to the left. And I don't think that was

in his heart. But he came out of Iowa

bad. Came out of New Hampshire even

worse. went to South Carolina, got

resurrected, and within three weeks,

everybody dropped south. Hadn't make a

deal, I think, with the wrong side of

that, and try to calm it down. And just

for the sake of being president, I think

he had to sign up, and his people took

him to the promised land of the far

left, which has no return. Now, with

with I think President Trump has a

chance to be monumental in what he can

do because he has that support from a

real strong base. I want to see the

compassion. I want to see the man that

could just charm you when you walk in

and talk to him. I want to see that

being shown now. He is the perfect

president for the Middle East. Strong

man, strong arm. He I say what I mean. I

mean what I say and boom, boom, boom.

Using my military might work in the

western part of the world where we have

diplomacy. We work we give and take a

little bit. He's a good enough of a

negotiator to understand that, but

they're still playing his people are

pushing him to stay hard hard. And it's

just not it's not what we need right now

in America. We need a leader with that

compassion, but the ability to bring us

together and make us work together in

the United States.

>> Last question before I give it to Jason

for the last last question. If you had

to if you had to think about 2028

people that are on both sides I think I

think the Republicans mostly the dy cast

but let's not frontr run that but on the

Democratic side maybe if you will who

are some people that you think could

bring some normaly

try to veer that party back to more of

the center are there younger emerging

people that you see in the Democratic

caucus and in the democratic party that

you think has this potential.

>> I'm not sure it's going to come out if

we have anybody when the United States

Senate on the Democrat side. I people

that are capable, Mark Warner, my dear

friend, I know he's capable is all the

all the get get out, but I'm just not

sure you're going to break loose because

you get you get identified. You get

labeled. You know, you're in that

Democrat party that was just so far to

the left and this and that. It's going

to be somebody coming whether it's going

to be a governor or an upand cominging

uh statesman within the party or it

could be you know someone's talked about

Stephen A. Smith, you know, Stephen.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, he is incredible. I'm going to

tell you one thing.

>> Incredibly dynamic.

>> He's as center left, center right as you

want. He can go both. He's not going to

go extreme.

>> As good as it gets. There's a lot of

good people, I think, could rise up.

Now, will the Democratic party accept

him? The Democrat party has been has has

been basically uh uh taken over by the

extremes. Okay? And they say, "Well, the

MAGA party's taken over the Republican

party. The Grand Old Party wants to be

grand again. Democrats want to be

responsible and compassionate. Again, I

tell people I'm fiscally responsible and

socially compassionate, which I think

most Americans are. But, uh, and then

you have I know Steven Basher. I mean, I

know Andy Basher. I served with his dad.

We were governors together.

>> I know good family. I know those people.

So, there's going to be some people rise

up that might be surprising. Shapiro. Do

you think that there are entrepreneurs

like Donald Trump but on the left or do

you think that that avenue is closed for

business people on the Democratic side?

>> I wouldn't think so because a business

person on the Democratic side could come

across with a heart and a soul and be a

little bit more a little bit more softer

in their approach, you know, and I think

be able to hit a nerve there. We have

someone with the smarts to do it and we

have someone with the compassion but

also the strength to make sure that we

remain I I'm concerned my biggest

concern I have is what Mike Mullen told

me in 2011 my first armed services

meeting Shimat and Jason I sat there I I

wanted they asked the question what's

the greatest fear the United States of

America has right today and that's 2011

I thought he's going to talk about China

about North Korea about Iran on and on

and on he never missed a beat within one

second he says the debt of the nation

will take us down. We will fold because

the debt we have and it's going to be

unmanaged debt which will make us lead

us to make cowardly decisions and we're

at 37 trillion. One every $5 that we

receive for revenue to run our country

takes $1 of that 20% just to pay the

debt on our our interest our interest on

our debt.

>> That's horrible.

>> Praise him. Jamie Diamond, Bob Iger come

to mind.

>> Absolutely. that big. I mean,

>> I I would be receptive to all there's a

lot of good people. I think it's going

to [clears throat] be very interesting.

The Democratic party will have to get

out of its own way and his ideology

left.

>> People aren't going that direction. Let

me give you one other thing, Jason, to

think about.

>> Bernie and and and AOC is going around

the country with these rallies and

rallies.

>> Yeah.

>> If that was effective and that's where

the country's going, why has the

Democrats lost

lost basically people who were

registered? They've lost registration of

over 100,000 people who've left the

Democratic party since they've started

that crusade.

>> Nobody wants it. It's a road to nowhere.

>> No, that's exactly right.

>> Wow. Big Joe, you you've been so uh

honest and candid here. It's okay if I

call you Big Joe because

>> I just I don't know. I've been called

Big Joe. You know what Joe Biden called

me. He says, "Jojo." I could always tell

if he was in a good mood with me. He

said, "Hey, Jojo, what's going on?" And

if he was pissed, "Hey, Joe, what's

wrong?"

>> Oh. Oh, [laughter] yeah. I'll just call

you big Joe because I got a lot of

respect for you. Um,

>> okay.

>> You've been so honest today and so uh

you can be permission to be totally

candid here. How close did you come to

running as an independent for president

and you can be especially candid about

this. How would you now that you got

this great book and a great track record

obviously a profile and courage. How

would you make the decision to run

yourself in 2020? Walk us through both.

I think about first of all, I would have

loved to have been and I begged the

Democratic party to have a mini primary,

30-day primary when Joe Biden

>> love it.

>> I I begged him. I said, "You had to you

had to dispel some of the things that

they were labeled with." And not every

Democrat believed in that. That would

have been a time to dispel a lot of that