What's your thoughts on ADHD?

Oof, this is a big topic and I'll

probably get myself in trouble here, but

there's something fishy going on. We can

get to that. Nir Eyal, one of the

world's leading experts in

procrastination

named the prophet of habit forming

talking about how to keep focused, how

to set the right goals. This is a

must-listen.

Avoiding distraction is the key to not

living with regret. 90% of the time that

we get distracted, it's not because of

what's happening outside of us, it's

because of what's happening inside of

us. If you can't sit with a friend

without looking at your phone every 3

minutes, it's not the phone. It's your

inability to deal with the discomfort of

silence or boredom. All human behavior

is driven by a desire to escape

discomfort.

It's not hard to do something you enjoy,

but it's how do I do the stuff that I

really don't feel like doing it?

I found this technique. Thousands of

studies have shown this to be very

effective. If you don't master that,

everything else becomes much more

difficult if not impossible. So, the

first step is

The number of people being diagnosed

with ADHD has significantly risen. ADHD

is a very real thing that can be

debilitating for people that suffer with

it.

ADHD is real, but you know, I have a lot

of concerns. 10% of children in the

United States are diagnosed with ADHD,

in Europe it's 1%. That's a big red

flag. Training a generation to believe

that solutions come in pill bottles. We

do not wait how dangerous those pills

can be. They have consequences.

The whole chemical imbalance theory, no

psychiatrist will tell you that's true.

Scientifically false. Skills before

pills. And what I hate about a lot of

people in the ADHD community, they feel

like it's an identity and that is so

dangerous. We need to look at ADHD as

Would you like to go for dinner with me

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CEO? We are holding dinner parties all

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and our subscribers on this YouTube

channel are invited. We're inviting 20

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and my guests here on the Diary of a

CEO, I have a favor to ask you. All

you've got to do is hit the subscribe

button and I hope to see you at dinner

somewhere around the world very soon.

Nir,

it is very good to see you again because

I have to admit you've changed my life,

but you also changed my father's life.

You're the reason my father quit

smoking. I've told this story maybe once

or twice before, but once upon a time I

came home from for Christmas and I left

your first book, Hooked,

in his bathroom. He picked that book up

once I'd left, read it, understood habit

loops and from that moment he took steps

which led led him to quit smoking. So, I

have to say thank you, but also you've

been on this podcast once before

a long, long time ago when not many

people were listening and from that

conversation there were small nuggets

which have stayed with me every day

since.

My first question to you, Nir,

for people that have just clicked onto

this podcast and are thinking about

whether to listen or not,

can you tell me

who should listen,

why they should listen,

and yeah, what value they're going to

gain from listening to the conversation

we're about to have? Yeah, so first of

all, thank you for having me. It's an

honor to be back for episode I think the

reason to listen is because regret

sucks.

Having regret in your life is awful. And

so, what I want to minimize with the

work I do and frankly, I write for

myself more than anyone else, I try and

solve my own problems, is I don't want

to look back on my life with regret. Not

for a day, not for a month, not for a a

year, not for a lifetime, certainly. And

so, avoiding distraction

is the key to not living with regret.

Because we all basically know what to

do, right? We know we should exercise.

We know we should eat right. We know we

should spend quality time with our

family. We know we should do the hard

work that we have to do to move our

careers forward.

But many times we don't do it even

though we know what to do. And if you

don't know what to do, Google it. It's

all out there, right? So, the problem is

not that we don't know what to do. The

problem is we keep getting in our own

way. And so, it's really about becoming

indistractable.

This is how we live the kind of lives we

deserve.

You described becoming indistractable on

Twitter as the single most important

skill that anybody in the 21st century

can adopt and learn.

Yeah, and I think it's the macro skill,

right? Because there's no facet of your

life that is not affected by your

ability to control your attention.

So, whether it's learning a new skill,

whether it's getting into relationships,

whether it's business, whether it's

physical fitness, all of these things

depend on your ability to follow

through.

And so, that's why I think it's the

skill of the century that if you if you

don't master that skill, everything else

becomes much more difficult if not

impossible. But if you do, if you can

become indistractable, you know, I made

up the word indistractable. It's meant

to sound like indestructible. It's meant

to be a superpower. It's meant to be uh

a a a trait that we want in order to

achieve our dreams. And so, it's you

know, my goal was not to tell people

what to do, right? I'm not going to say

you need to exercise, you need to live

right, you need to do this, you need to

do that. That's not my goal at all. If

you want to play video games uh for your

waking hours, that's fine with me. What

I want to help people do is do the

things that they themselves want to do.

Whatever it is that you say you want to

do with your time and attention, that's

what I want to help you do.

So, why

don't we do what we want to do? Because

you as you say, the information's all

out there. We have Google, we have all

of these books, we have podcasts like

this, but regardless of you know, we've

had loads of health podcasts in a row on

on this show where we've had the best

health experts from all around the world

and I'm sure there's people that have

listened to those episodes

have heard don't eat sugar, don't do

this, don't do this, do this, do this,

do this. Right. But they're still at

home struggling now to turn that

intention into behavior. What is

standing in our way? What's getting in

our way? Yeah, so I wish I could give

you a a one-sentence answer, but let me

back up and and kind of frame this a

bit. So, the best way to understand what

distraction is is to understand what

distraction is not. And to do that, we

have to start with what the where the

word comes from. So, the word

distraction comes from this Latin root

trahare, which means to pull.

And uh if you notice that the the the

opposite of of distraction is not focus.

Many people say, "I don't want to be

distracted, I want to be focused." But

that's not the opposite of the word. The

opposite of distraction is traction.

That both words end in the same six

letters, a c t i o n, that spells

action, reminding us that distraction is

not something that happens to us, it is

an action we ourselves take. So, we have

traction, we have distraction.

Traction is any action that pulls us

towards what we say we're going to do.

Things that move us closer to our

values, help us become the kind of

person we want to become. Those are acts

of traction. The opposite of traction,

distraction is any action that pulls us

away from what we plan to do, farther

from our goals, farther from becoming

the person we want to become.

So, this is really important. This isn't

just semantics because I would argue

that any action that you do with intent,

anything that is planned ahead, anything

that involves forethought is traction.

So, there's a lot of talk today about

how, you know, social media is melting

our brains and video games are bad for

you. I I I don't I don't agree. I think

that anything that you plan to do with

your time and attention, as long as it's

done with intent, is fine. That becomes

an act of traction as long as it's

planned for with intent. As Dorothy

Parker said, the time you plan to waste

is not wasted time. Now, just because

something is a work-related task doesn't

mean it's not a distraction. In fact,

that's the worst kind of distraction

because these distractions trick you

into not even realizing you're getting

distracted. I'll I'll give you a perfect

example.

For years, I would sit down at my desk,

I would

take out my to-do list. By the way, we

can talk about later why to-do lists are

one of the worst things you can do for

your personal productivity. We can get

to that. I would sit down at my desk and

I would say, "Okay, I've got that big

project that I need to work on right

now. Nothing's going to get in my way.

I'm going to stay focused. Here I go,

I'm going to get started."

But first, let me check some email,

right? Let me just scroll that Slack

channel. Let me just do that one thing

on my to-do list, that easy task, just

to get started here, just to get the

rhythm going, right? I'm you know, it's

a work-related task. And what I didn't

realize that that is the most pernicious

form of distraction, the distraction

that you don't even realize is

happening. Because if it's not what you

said you were going to do in advance

within your time and attention, it is by

definition a distraction.

Right? So, what we tend to do is we

prioritize the easy work. We prioritize

the urgent work as opposed to the hard

and important work we have to do to move

our lives and careers forward. So, just

because it's a work-related task doesn't

mean it's a distraction. That's the most

awful type of distraction. It's not the

video games, it's not the social media,

it's the distractions we don't even know

are distracting us from what we said we

would do with our time. So, now we've

got traction, we've got distraction.

Now, the other two parts of the model

involve what we call triggers. Triggers

are these things that prompt us to

action. We have two kinds of triggers.

External triggers are things that are

outside our environment. These are

things that we tend to blame like cell

phones and uh our computers and all the

pings, dings, and rings in our life. But

studies find that those account for only

10% of our distractions. Only 10% are

caused by these external triggers. So,

what's the other 90%?

90% of the time that we get distracted,

it's not because of what's happening

outside of us, it's because of what's

happening inside of us. These are called

internal triggers. Internal triggers are

these uncomfortable emotional states

that we seek to escape. And so, that's

the first step to becoming

indistractable and answers your question

around why, by and large, even though

despite knowing what to do, we don't do

it, it's because all of these problems

are an emotion regulation problem. That

in fact, time management is pain

management. I would argue weight

management is pain management. Money

management is pain management. In fact,

all human behavior, all human behavior

is about a desire to escape discomfort.

And that answers your question around

why don't we just do what we say we're

going to do? It's because we don't

realize that these are always

emotion regulation problems.

So, that's the first step to becoming

indistractable, is mastering the

internal triggers. Then, the second

step, talked about traction earlier,

making time for traction. The third

step, hacking back the external

triggers. And then finally, preventing

distraction with pacts. And so, that's

the that's the model, the these four

steps. And then of course, we can go in

as much depth as you like, but if you

understand these four fundamental steps,

and this is what took me five years

writing this book, namely because I kept

getting distracted, right? I was very

distractible myself, and I wrote the

book for me, as I mentioned earlier. Uh

but it was when I boiled down the the

the you know, hundreds of studies and

research, and you can see there's 35

pages of citations in the book. Uh it

wasn't until I I could kind of solidify

this model that I could make it

practical enough to change lives. It

certainly did mine.

One of the things this podcast has

taught me from speaking to all these

people across multiple fields is that

sometimes we can feel like our body, our

wiring is against us, especially as it

relates to health, right? So, you know,

we know sugar is bad. So, why does our

brain send us these cravings to go and

eat sugar?

And in the case of distractions and sort

of behavioral psychology,

I know instinctively and intuitively

that

distractions, like hanging out on Tik

Tok for an hour, is bad.

But my brain is doing it.

What does that tell us about how we

should

go about adopting behavior change? Yeah,

so that's why it's it's really about

this holistic model. So, that's what

took me the most time to figure out was

what are the four mandatory components

of

living without regret, of of doing what

you say you're going to do. So, the

first step is mastering these internal

triggers, figuring out why you feel this

way, right? What is that underlying

sensation? So, if you're trying to avoid

that that chocolate bar, it might be

hunger.

Or it might not be hunger, right? So, I

used to be clinically obese.

And I'll tell you what, I did not eat uh

to excess because I was hungry.

I was eating to excess because I was

lonely. I was eating to excess because I

was bored. I was eating to excess

because I felt guilty about how much I

had just eaten.

It wasn't just about the hunger, right?

Very few people who are obese

are just hungry all the time. That's not

what's going on. It's because we're

eating our feelings. That's what's

happening. So, that's the first step. We

have to understand the deeper reason.

How did you understand that?

Um a a lot of work.

A lot of uh figuring out stuff in my

life to to help me understand that. And

I think actually that's where my

fascination with what I do today in

terms of, you know, the same exact

reason that we would overdo uh our use

of technology.

It's

It's not the technology's fault, guys. I

hate to tell you this. I wish I could

blame Zuckerberg and Tik Tok, but these

are just tools, right? And then before

those, there were other tools. It was

they used to call our generation couch

potatoes. And before that, it was the

radio was the moral panic. And before

that, it was comic books. There's always

some moral panic or, "Oh, this is

melting our brains." Because we don't

want to face the facts that we are

looking for escape from

these internal triggers.

Right? Time management is pain

management. All human behavior is driven

by a desire to escape discomfort.

So, when you realize that that, you know

what, I was just unable to deal with

these sensations in a in a healthful way

that moved me towards traction, I was

trying to escape them with distraction.

It's not until you understand what

sensations you're trying to escape from

that you can deal with them. If you

can't sit around the table with a friend

without looking at your phone every 3

minutes,

it's not the phone. It's your inability

to deal with the discomfort of maybe

having silence or boredom or whatever

else is going on in your life. So, that

has to be the first step. It's not the

only step, but that's the first step.

I'm really compelled by really

interested in how you figured out the

thing you were trying to escape from,

because I think that's the starting

point, which is a very difficult

starting point for most people.

Mhm. They can see the sort of compulsive

behavior that's maybe making them live

outside of their values or causing them

to excessively eat or excessively watch

porn or whatever it might be. But

diagnosing the root cause of that

is a difficult thing to do. Most of us

don't know what we don't know, and

Yeah.

Uh yeah. It It is and it isn't. It I

mean, I I'm not

You don't have to go to therapy. Not

that there's anything wrong with it. If

it's helpful, please do it. But that's

not a requirement. Something as simple

as, you know, so whenever I work, uh I

have on my desk, I have a a little

Post-it note and a pen handy. And

when I get distracted or when I even

feel the sense of distraction, just

noting down down that sensation, just

writing down what is it that I felt

right before the distraction. So, I

write every day. And all I want to do

when I write, you know this, right? When

you write, all you want to do is go

Google something or do some research or

go check email for a quick sec or let me

just find that one thing that might be

And they're all distractions. They're

all taking you away from the core thing

you need to do, which you said you would

do, which is right. And so, if I can

just pause for a second and reflect on

what was that sensation that I was

feeling right before. It was boredom. It

was anxiety. It was fearfulness. It was

uncertainty.

Just writing it down is an incredible

first step towards gaining power over

that discomfort. Because then you can

start to identify it. And so, what I'll

do many times is just pause to reflect

on, wait a minute. What what what's

going on there, right? What what is that

sensation? Because then you can begin to

do what's called reframing the trigger.

So, now when I feel the sensation of

wanting to get distracted, I say, "You

know what? What's going on here? Okay, I

I'm feeling this sensation

because I'm stressed. Why am I stressed?

Because this is really important to me.

I want to get this right for my readers

and for myself."

And so, reframing it as not a negative,

but something that happens uh not to me,

but for me, that that sensation is a

sign that I can listen to. I think most

of us, we think when we feel this

discomfort, that's happening to us.

Right? But it's not. It's happening for

us. It's a signal for us to listen to.

Now, how we interpret it is up to us.

And that's where the magic happens. If

you interpret it as something that is

harmful, is dangerous, that you need to

escape, right? You don't want to feel

that uncomfortable sensation, Mhm. you

look for distraction.

But what we find is that high performers

across every field, when you think about

the arts, when you think about sports,

business, high performers, when they

feel those internal triggers, they

experience the same internal triggers

the rest of us do. They experience

loneliness and stress and anxiety just

like everyone else does.

But they deal with it by using it as

rocket fuel to push them towards

traction. Whereas distractible people,

as soon as they feel that discomfort,

they try and escape it with distraction.

That's the big difference.

That's one of the things that you said

to me when we when we spoke last time

that really has had a profound impact on

my life, specifically around the area of

procrastination.

Mhm. You said about that, which is like

taking a moment to pause and ask

yourself what the which psychological

discomfort you're trying to escape from

in the moment. And then that second

step. So, you Now I'm clear. I'm trying

not to do this

book because this particular chapter, I

just don't feel that competent or I

don't feel like I've researched it. It's

making my brain feel a bit hot thinking

about it. I reframe it and go, "Okay, so

I've I've understood it now." Then what

do I do? Yeah. So, step one is

Understand it.

Is is Yeah, is is under master those

internal triggers.

Yeah. Or they become your master. That's

step number one. There's a bunch of

techniques. We're just covering the

surface. There's over a dozen different

techniques that you can use to help you

master those internal triggers. Now, the

second step is to make time for

traction. Okay.

So, when you have those doubts,

one of these techniques that is is

really life-changing is scheduling time

for worry.

Scheduling time for worry.

That what happens is in the moment, we

feel these feelings, we think these

thoughts.

And a distractible person will say,

"Well, I I I got to deal with that

sensation right now. I have to I have to

work through whatever it is that I'm

feeling right now." And they stop

everything to do that. And that's not

the right method. The right method is to

write down that sensation and get back

to the task at hand as quickly as

possible using these these four

strategies.

Then later on, right? Now that you've

written down what that sensation is,

you're going to make time in your

calendar

to think about that sensation.

So, you start processing it.

Using the book example, I've hit chapter

12 and I just I'm struggling with this

chapter. Right. So, So, you step number

one, you have these tools. Like let me

Maybe I can digress for a second. I'll

tell you my favorite tool for mastering

internal triggers. It's called the

10-minute rule. This comes from

acceptance and commitment therapy. And

the 10-minute rule says that you can

give in to any distraction, any

distraction. Maybe it's smoking that

cigarette if you're trying to quit.

Maybe it's eating that piece of

chocolate cake if you're on a diet.

Maybe it's uh checking social media.

Whatever it is. Whatever distraction,

you can give in to that distraction,

but not right now. You can give in in 10

minutes. Don't misunderstand, not for 10

minutes. Sometimes people get it wrong.

It's in 10 minutes. Okay? So, what does

that do? What that does is we talked

about psychological reactants earlier,

and you asked, "How do you What What do

you do about psychological reactants?"

You're allowing yourself to acknowledge

that you are in control. Okay? You

decide. What many people do is they have

strict abs- abstinence, right? Strict

abstinence says, "No, I will not do it,

right? I won't eat sugar. I I I won't

get distracted. I will do this. I will

do that." As opposed to saying, "Hey,

I'm an adult. I can do whatever I want.

I choose not to go off track for the

next 10 minutes." That's it. In 10

minutes, I can give in to whatever I

want. So, now I'm in control. You know,

the the whole just say no technique

turns out makes you ruminate and think

about and have more discomfort around

the thing you want,

increasing these internal triggers, and

that actually is what makes you give in

to that distraction. We know that with

smoking, actually, it's very

interesting. We're finding that nicotine

is less and less part of the the reason

people get addicted to cigarettes. It's

more about the rumination around I I I I

I want to smoke, but I can't. I want to

smoke, but I shouldn't. I want to smoke.

I want to smoke. I want to smoke. Fine.

I'll finally smoke.

Now I get relief. How do we know this?

If you ask smokers, why do they smoke?

The number one reason, it's relaxing.

That makes no sense. Nicotine is a

stimulant.

Makes no sense, right? Why would it be

relaxing? It's relaxing because finally

I can stop telling myself I don't have

to do it anymore. I don't have to fight

with myself anymore. And that eases that

psychological reactance. Ha, I can

finally give in.

So, when you use this 10-minute rule and

say, "Okay, I can give in to that

distraction in 10 minutes from now,"

what you're doing is you're establishing

agency.

Right? Now you're in control. And we can

do anything for 10 minutes. And if 10

minutes feels like too long, try the

5-minute rule. The idea is that you're

building that ability over time. So, the

10-minute rule becomes the 12-minute

rule becomes the 15-minute rule. And

you're learning, "Wait a minute, I can

actually delay gratification." Remember,

all these problems of distraction are an

impulse control issue. So, when you

teach yourself, "Wait a minute. Okay, I

can delay for 5 10 minutes. That's no

big deal." You're proving to yourself,

"Hey, I'm not addicted to these things.

I'm not powerless. My brain isn't being

hijacked. I do have control as long as I

use these practices." Right? So, the

10-minute rule is is a very very

effective technique. Now, when you we

were talking about budgeting that time

later on. Okay, so when you use those

techniques, that's step number one. By

the way, there's a

dozen other techniques that you can use.

The 10-minute rule is just one of them.

Later on in the day, you're going to put

time in your schedule to come back to

that feeling. Right? I want you to

literally put time in your calendar

called worry time.

And that's where you're going to look

back at that posted note and worry about

all the things that you thought would

that that you thought you would normally

have to get through throughout your day.

Does that make sense? So, so I used to

do this all the time. I would say, "Oh,

I've got this worry. I need to I need to

take care of that worry right now."

And that would derail me. As opposed to

when I started writing down and planning

for that worry time, you know what

happened?

Nine out of 10 of those worries and

emotions and fears and thoughts

melted away.

Like when I when I had a few minutes to

think about them,

I you know what? Actually, that that

wasn't that important. That didn't have

to get done. That wasn't really a

problem. Right? And the one out of 10

that really was an issue that I did need

to think about, okay, now I have time to

actually think about it. So, one, it

compartmentalizes that time, so it

doesn't pull you away, and it lets your

brain relax. Second thing it does is

that it lets your brain say, "Okay, I

don't have to worry about this problem

right now. I can think about it later."

We see this, by the way, with with

children. You know, many parents there's

a whole section in the book

Indistractable on how to raise

indistractable kids. And so, many

parents ask me about, you know, what

what do I do with social media and this

and that.

And I I part of my advice is schedule

time for your kids to play video games.

Put it in their daily schedule. Like sit

down with them and make a schedule for

the day and have that time. Because then

they don't have to worry about all day,

"When do I get to play Fortnite? When do

I get to, you know, hang out with my

friends online?" It's in their schedule.

It's coming. They don't have to think

about it all day long. And so, it's the

same with any of these potential

distractions. We want to

compartmentalize these times when we can

think about them later in the day and

work on them.

So, what happens then? So, I've

compartmentalized it. I'm writing my

book. I'm on chapter 12. I've got a

bunch of worries popping. I'm scheduling

that for later. Um and I'm going to

crack on with the book.

Right. Um that's what I say to myself.

That's section two of your four-step

process, right?

Right. Making time for distraction. So,

you're going to finish that time box.

Yeah. Right? So, if you said, "I'm going

to work on this book for 30 minutes."

Finish the time box. Even if you're just

sitting there staring into space, right?

Steven Pressfield talks about this in

the the uh The War of Art. It's about

putting your butt in the chair. That's

what makes a professional. Is you do the

work. Right? And what you find is it's

very boring for a few seconds. I have

This I have This happens every time I

sit down to write.

There's that pause of, "You know what?

Maybe I'm just not feeling it. Maybe I

should just stop for a little bit."

Right? Do you feel that?

All the time. All the time, right? If

you just sit there, if you just stick

with it, even if it's just putting your

hands on the keyboard and just hanging

out for a few seconds,

it always comes back. Right? Maybe a

minute or two or 20 later, it'll come

back. And if it doesn't, that's fine.

Just finish that time box. That's the

most important thing.

Step three? So, step three is hacking

back the external triggers. So, this is

where we do talk about the usual

suspects, the pings, the dings, the

rings.

Uh that's where we, you know, very

systematically go through what a lot of

people complain about, but it's really

only 10% the problem. Because 90% of our

distractions begin from within. But

people, you know, do have these issues.

You know, we talk about the the phone,

the computer. What turns out to be a

much bigger problem

is not the technology, it's what the

technology is attached to.

Right? So, what if it's your boss that's

the distraction? What if it's your kids

that are distraction? We love them to

death, right? Our kids are great. But

they can be a huge source of

distraction. Meetings. Oh my god, how

many stupid meetings do we have to

attend that are nothing but a

distraction. Especially now that Zoom

makes it accessible so that wherever you

are, you know, people can can call

meetings. Those are huge distractions.

Of course, uh Slack channels and that's

what we get into more in the book in

terms of, "Okay, systematically, what do

you do about these various external

triggers?"

What would you do about that? And what's

your general view? Let's take this into

the professional context now. You know

the design of like most offices, the

kind of open-plan format where everybody

can just walk over to someone else and

say, "Oh, Jenny, if you've got a minute,

could you just take a look at this?"

Yeah. Yeah.

Um the same applies in, you know, the

healthcare field and other sort of

scientific

fields where you're working around a lot

of people who can just tap you on the

shoulder and say, "Could you just take a

look at this?"

Yeah. Can you pass me the book?

Yeah. So, every copy of the book

comes with

Oh, did you tear it out already? Maybe.

Oh. You've had this for a while. So, you

tore it out already. So, usually right

here in the back, there is a piece of

card stock that um you put I it's this

red

piece of card stock that you fold into

thirds and you put on your computer

monitor. And it tells your colleagues,

"I am indistractable. Please come back

later."

And that screen sign is is a wonderful

way, you know, you put it on your

computer monitor if you work in an open

floor plan office, that says, "Hey, I

just need to be indistractable for a

little bit." Right? People say, "Well,

why don't I just put on headphones?"

Well, people think you're listening to

uh an episode on YouTube or something.

They don't realize that that that you're

working with intent. So, that's one easy

way to do it. Another thing you can do

is to start managing your manager. And

this is something that that all of us

can start doing if we have, you know,

bosses who I I hear this all the time.

They say, "Look, I'm indistractable. I

followed all your techniques, but my

boss keeps interrupting me. What do I

do?"

So, one of the things you can do, one of

the benefits of of step two there where

you can uh make time for traction is

when you have a time box calendar,

you have an artifact. You have something

that you can physically print out and

show to other people.

So, what I want folks to do when they

say, "Look, my my boss isn't leaving me

alone when I need to work with that

distraction. What do I do?" What you

want to do is you want to sit down with

your boss for 10 15 minutes. You say,

"Boss, hey, can we sit down for 15

minutes on on Monday morning? I want to

ask you something." You sit down with

them and you show them your time box

calendar. You take out the calendar for

your working hours and you say, "Hey,

boss, okay. Here's what I'm doing this

week. See, here's my time for this

meeting. Here's my time for email.

Here's my focused work time. Here's what

I'm doing this week. Here's the the

various projects you asked me to work

on. Now, you see this other piece of

paper here? This is where I wrote down

all the things that you asked me to do

that I'm having trouble fitting into my

schedule."

And what you're doing with this process

is you're avoiding one of the worst

pieces of productivity advice that we

hear all the time, which is, "If you

want to be more productive, you have to

learn how to say no."

That is the kind of advice that only a

tenured professor would tell you. That

is terrible advice. You're going to tell

the person who pays your bills, "No."

You're going to get fired. That's awful

advice. Instead of saying no, what you

want to do is to engage your boss in

helping you do the one thing that they

absolutely have to do as a manager,

which is prioritize. So, you ask them,

"How can I make sure that I do what you

asked me to do based on my schedule for

the week?" And here's what they're going

to do. They're going to look at that and

say, "You know what? That meeting,

that's actually not that important. But

that this project over here that you put

on the piece of paper, that's actually

super important. Can you swap those

out?" Mhm. And so, by doing that, you're

doing what's called schedule syncing.

You're making sure that their priorities

are also reflected in your schedule. And

bosses will worship the ground you walk

on. They love this. Because every boss

out there, every manager, we're

wondering kind of what our people are

doing, right? That's what they're they

want to know, but they don't want to ask

you that because they don't want you to

feel like you're being micromanaged. So,

you're proactively doing that for them.

And you're showing them, "Hey, this is

the time when I need to do focused work.

This is when I'm going to be

indistractable."

On that point of priorities, you said

that startup founders really only have

one job, which is to prioritize. And

that really did

smack me in the face because that's so

unbelievably true. Mhm. Um we have a

finite amount of resources, founders. Um

we have a lot of things we want to do.

We have more things we want to do than

time and time in the day. And creating

systems, like you said, where we can sit

down and reflect on our priorities is so

important because

we might have an idea every day. Then we

get to 1 month later and there's and our

to-do list or our teams are overcome by

doing the first things we said, not the

most important things we said.

Exactly.

And a lot of the time because of I don't

know, cognitive dissonance or pride or

ego, whatever, you don't want to throw

something out that eight people have

started working on or

um that you've you've told them to work

on. Like going up to your team and

saying, "Okay, we're just going to

cancel that project we've just spent 2

weeks working on because this is a new

priority of ours."

Sometimes um sometimes can feel

difficult.

Absolutely. It's called the commitment

bias. That when we commit to something

or sunk cost fallacy, it's also called

that. That when we have a sunk cost in

something, we value it more. But of

course, that's that's silly, especially

in business. I mean, this is

you know, I had a professor in uh

at business school who said um every

business dies for the same reason.

Businesses only die for one reason.

Cash. They run out of cash. Cash is

oxygen. Oxygen is life.

And the number one cause of a business

running out of cash is doing the wrong

thing for too long.

So, being able to cut your losses and

saying, "I know it feels wrong, but I

know it's right in my head."

That is an essential skill of every CEO.

Because again, you know, prioritization

is your only job. And good priori-

priori- People who are good at

prioritization make for good CEOs. And

people who are bad at prioritization

make for bad CEOs.

So, we're in step three of the four

steps. Mhm. What's step number four? So,

step four is is preventing distraction

with pacts.

So, pacts are these what's called a

pre-commitment device. So, this is what

you do after the first three steps. So,

you master the internal triggers, you

make time for traction, you hack back

the external triggers. As the last line

of defense, as the firewall against

distraction, you're going to prevent

distraction with a pact. Now, what are

pacts? It's when you decide in advance

what you will do to keep yourself in

that task. And there's three types of

pacts. We have what we call effort

pacts, price pacts, and identity pacts.

An effort pact is when there's some bit

of friction in between you and the thing

you don't want to do. So, I'll I'll it

it's just us and your millions of

viewers here, so I'll get a little

personal, okay?

A few years ago, my wife and I, and

again, we've been married for 22 years

now. A few years ago, before I was

writing this book,

uh we noticed that our sex life was

suffering. That every night we were

going to bed

and I was fondling my iPhone and she was

caressing her iPad. And right? And we

were going to bed later and later. And

not only were we not getting proper

sleep, we all know how important rest

is.

Our sex life was suffering. So, when I

started this research, I came across

this uh

this research around

the importance of these effort pacts.

And I went to the hardware store and I

bought us this $10 outlet timer.

Now, this outlet timer, you plug it into

the wall and whatever you plug into that

outlet timer will turn on or off at any

time of day or night.

So, what did we do with that? We plugged

in our internet router into this timer.

So, every night in our household at

10:00 p.m., the internet shuts off. Now,

could I turn it back on? Of course I

could, but I'd have to go under my desk,

unplug this timer, reset it, and plug it

back in. That would take effort. So, I

put some friction in between myself and

the distraction.

Okay?

And lo and behold, every night we all

knew, okay, the internet's going to shut

down at 10:00 p.m., finish up whatever

you need to do. And it gave me that bit

of mindfulness to say, okay, do I really

need to still, you know, check email or

social media or whatever silly thing I

was doing, or is it time to do what I

said I was going to do, which is get

some rest, go to bed, and maybe be

intimate with my wife.

People might hear that and go, you

didn't need a

timer to have sex with your wife. But I

did.

I did. Because look, in the moment, you

know, you're you're you're tired, you're

you're you're you're you're just kind of

drifting off. We've all done this,

right? Where you you're looking at

something on the internet and and it

just it's kind of harmless because, you

know, she's brushing her teeth and I'm

waiting and you know, just one thing

leads to another and before you know it,

it's it you've gone to bed later than

you

anticipated and you've given up a lot in

the process. So, having that rule,

again, having that time box calendar,

that's that that's step number two,

where you have to we have in our

calendars bedtime, right? Why do we do

that? Oh, I know, okay, eventually I'm

going to go to sleep, but why do I have

a bedtime in my calendar? And isn't it

ironic for those of us who have

children, we tell our children, you need

a bedtime, right? We're adamant about

how our children need bedtimes. But for

us, we don't need a bedtime? And my

daughter called us out on this. You

know, she said, "Daddy, what what what's

your bedtime?"

And she was absolutely right. We've all

read these books, we all know how

important sleep is. And yet, we don't go

to bed. We we we it's crazy to me how

many I see this with with multiple

domains in health and fitness. We get

nootropics and we get blackout curtains

and we get, you know, all we melatonin.

Just go to bed on time. That's the

number one reason people don't get

enough sleep, they don't go to bed on

time. So, did I need an internet timer?

Yeah, we all do. Because this is what

keeps us awake. Right? We do all these

interesting things. Again, the price of

progress is that you can find anything

you want at any time of day or night on

the internet. So, we do need these

pacts, again, as the last line of

defense. It's not the first thing. You

know, I don't want people to to listen

to me and say, "Okay, fine, I'll get an

internet timer, then I won't get

distracted." No, if you don't first deal

with the the internal triggers that lead

you to distraction, you'll find

something else. Right? Someone's also

going to say, "Listen, you've got 4G

internet on your phone, you've got

cellular internet, so you can just go on

it."

True. Again, but now it's effort. Yeah,

yeah. Right? If if I really wanted to

lie to myself, of course I could. That's

not the point, right? That there's

always a way. The point is it adds a bit

of friction. Right? It's that bit of of

of effort that now I have to take. And

more than anything, it's a statement

you're making to you and everyone in

your social environment that at 10:00

p.m. is the shut off time. Whether

people adhere to that or as you say,

there's ways to circumnavigate that, but

it's the statement of having that shut

off timer. Exactly. And now, by the way,

we it actually wouldn't even matter

because we all know the internet's going

to shut off at 10:00. We all need to

start getting ready to to stop doing

whatever we're doing because it's going

to Now, we don't even need anymore. It's

become part of our nightly ritual,

right? And by the way, what I want to

illustrate is the concept, not the

practice, right? Tactics are what you

do, strategy is why you do it.

That's more important. You know, I think

a lot of these books around similar

topics around

you know, dealing with with focus and

productivity, it's a lot of life hacks,

right? But what I wanted was more the

the strategy, the the psychological

principles around why we get distracted.

And then I'll I'll let people come up

with their own tactics. I give you lots

of tactics as well, but this is just one

illustration of how we can use this

strategy. And that's only one pact.

There's also two other pacts I can I can

share as well. There's a lot of just

before we get onto the two other pacts,

a lot of debate over the years about

this idea of willpower. All of you know,

just before we started recording, I said

to you, I looked up all these time

management techniques and I've looked at

these diet fads and there's so many of

them because it appears that they none

of them really work without this

underlying thing called discipline.

So, you can have all the you know, I can

time box and I can the one two three

four technique and the ABC five

technique, whatever. But if I don't have

the underlying discipline, then I'm not

going to do any of these things.

Discipline is such a interesting word.

It's

it

it kind of catches a lot of different

things. A lot of psychological forces

you've described.

But and this other theory of willpower

that's sort of trundled on through the

ages, that we have a limited amount of

willpower

and if we try and do too many things at

once, then we'll do none of them and

only take on one bad habit at once. Is

there any truth to all of that stuff?

No.

No? No. Willpower is not a limited

resource.

Uh at least from the latest research,

you know, science isn't is never

conclusive, but from what we know today,

it seems So, a few years ago, there was

this concept called ego depletion. Ego

depletion is exactly what you mentioned,

it's that we run out of willpower like

someone would run out of battery charge

on their phone, right? That it's a

depletable resource.

And this concept was was promoted and

kind of widely circulated in the popular

press.

And there were some fantastical claims

made that if you if you drank

sugar-sweetened lemonade that you would

boost your willpower. And it turns out,

as often happens in the social sciences,

when something sounds a little fishy, we

replicate the study. We try and run the

study again.

And Carol Dweck, who you might know from

she's probably been on your show, from

her book Mindset, she decided to

replicate these studies. She decided to

run them again, these ego depletion

studies. And she found

that

the only people who experienced ego

depletion, the only people who actually

did run out of willpower like someone

would run out of battery on their phone,

the only people who experienced that

were people who believed

that willpower was a limited resource.

That's it.

So, it turns out, I mean, this is this

incredibly important because it has

implications for all sorts of things in

our life, right? When we believe that we

are somehow deficient, that our brain is

broken, that

the the the world is conspiring against

us to hijack our brains, when we believe

these self-limiting thoughts,

we act in accordance. And so, it's very

much the case with with this ego

depletion myth, that ego is that our

willpower is not limited unless we

believe it is.

And on this point of did cuz I think the

word discipline is somewhat

interchangeably used with like

willpower. It's doing the thing you said

you were going to do like and you

intended to do. I was trying to figure

out what discipline is and where it

comes from. Why in certain aspects of my

life like going to the gym now. So, for

the last three years, I've gone to the

gym about six days a week.

Before then, I couldn't. DJing, I've

started DJing and I've done that for

about 12 months. I've been disciplined

with that. This podcast, I've been able

to do it. We release two episodes a week

and we have done for a while now. Why am

I disciplined in some areas of my life?

Why can I continue to show up? And why

in other areas of my life is it this

kind of failing battle to like you know,

get back on the horse every other week

because I've fallen off. I had a

hypothesis where I was like, well, with

DJing, I have a like a a goal that mean

this is maybe my discipline equation.

A goal that means a lot to me. It's it's

worth the pursuit. If I attain it, you

know, it feels like it's worthwhile.

Plus

the psychological engagement and

enjoyment of the pursuit of the goal.

So, like deep like I want to be a DJ

plus the psychological engagement and

enjoyment. I I love the process of

DJing. It's like meditation or therapy.

Listening to your favorite music for

hours, doing nothing other than being in

that flow state. Minus

this is where you kind of come in, I

guess, is the psychological discomfort

or disengagement

associated with the pursuit. So, for

example, if the DJing equipment was up

in the spare room and I had to

load it up every day and it took 35

minutes to do it.

And then I had to load up the software

every day and it was really difficult.

I might find the process not worthwhile

and I might discipline might wane.

When you look at that equation, the Y,

the enjoyment of the pursuit minus the

the sort of unenjoyment of the pursuit,

does that make sense? There's a lot

there. I mean, the basics are there. I

think what's

uh missing is that you So, with this

DJing

pursuit,

you enjoy it.

And so, it's not hard to do something

you enjoy. This is my problem with flow.

You've heard about Mihaly

Csikszentmihalyi with the concept of

flow.

Uh that, you know, you can get into this

state where

time flies and it's effortless. And the

examples, if you read the book, uh the

of the examples are from sports, they're

from things that, you know,

people really enjoy doing.

And that's, you know, that's like

Hollywood. It's nice work if you can get

it. How do you get into flow when it's

something you really don't want to do?

So, right now you enjoy DJing because to

correct me if I'm wrong, it's it's

you're not doing professionally or maybe

you are? Not really. So,

my guess is right now as an amateur,

it's fun. Stakes are low, you're just

enjoying the process.

Very much what I used to do when I first

started blogging, right? I was just

writing for myself and then I got a few

readers and it was kind of fun just to,

you know, it's pure joy. It's pure

amateur behavior.

And then what

happened

when I said, "Okay, now I want to

publish a book." Or when you if you

decide to professionally DJ, it's going

to start getting hard, right? Now

there's all this other stuff you don't

want to do around the core experience,

right? Now you got to figure out, how do

I build my brand and how do I get people

packed into, you know, the the

my show? And all this stuff that you

have to do that maybe isn't as fun. And

that's where flow falls down. So, this

is exactly what's happening and

happened. Mhm. So, started DJing and

then we announced I'm going to do a

show. We got 3,000 people to come to

this venue.

And in the lead-up to that, DJing became

a lot less fun. And even now, so they've

they've they're trying to book me to do

a show in Ibiza and Marbella this year.

And suddenly I'm getting all

uncomfortable about DJing again. Because

so when I look at the the equation I

presented, what seems to have happened

in that equation is the perceived

psychological cost has increased

suddenly. Mhm. Because now there's like

nerves and yeah. Now there's like worry

and all these other forces at play and

that equation's now I've killed my

discipline has dropped. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. And so that's where becoming

indistractable comes into play.

You don't need to be indistractable for

something you love doing anyway, right?

There's no problem with that. Follow

through is easy.

It's how do I do the stuff I know I need

to do

but I really don't feel like doing it.

If you ask, you know, we talked about

earlier

the only reason businesses fail is

because they run out of cash. The only

reason we fail at our goals, there's

only one. The only reason we fail at our

goals is because we don't feel like it.

I don't feel like it. I don't feel like

going to the gym right now. I don't feel

like working on that book. I don't feel

like whatever it is. It's a feeling.

Fundamentally, it's a feeling. Of course

there's outside factors, of course. But

in terms of the number one reason we

don't pursue our goals is we quit.

Right? That's the the most prominent

reason. We don't follow through and that

tends to be because of a feeling. So,

when there are these tasks that suddenly

get hard, right? Are suddenly difficult,

that's when we need different tactics.

It's easy to do the stuff we enjoy. It's

hard to do the stuff that

we don't enjoy.

So, what would you advise me to do then?

In the case of DJing, I've got, you

know, potentially two shows this summer

in Europe.

So, I I would start with your values.

Um and that's part of step two of making

time for traction. When people ask, you

know, how do I make a time box calendar?

Where do you start? You start with your

values.

So, what are values? The definition of

values in my book is attributes of the

person you want to become.

Attributes of the person you want to

become.

So, then what you do is you put your

your your values in terms of these three

life domains. I look at them as

concentric circles.

At the center of these three life

domains is you. If you can't take care

of yourself, can't take care of others,

you can't make the world a better place.

So, in that when it comes to that life

domain, you look at the things that you

want to do for yourself, the time you

want to spend to become the person you

want to become. And you look at your

calendar, you look at this blank

calendar for the next 7 days and you ask

yourself, how would the person I want to

become spend their time?

And you put that time in your schedule.

So, time for rest, time for reading,

time for

video games. Doesn't matter. Put that

time in your schedule.

The next life domain is your

relationships. Part of the reason we

have this loneliness epidemic in the

industrialized world

is that we don't have the time scheduled

for our relationships like we used to.

As the industrialized world became more

secular,

the church, the synagogue, the mosque,

we don't go to these

social interactions where we care for

others and others care for us. We don't

have that scheduled in our day anymore.

And I'm not saying it, I'm I'm pretty

secular myself. I'm not saying we have

to do that, but that is what we have

lost because we don't have these regular

what used to be religious institutions.

Doesn't have to be real. I mean, we

Robert Putnam was talking about this in

the 1990s in his book Bowling Alone. We

don't have these regular social

interactions like previous generations

did. And we need to bring those back. I

actually think social media overuse is a

symptom, not the cause

of the fact that we

don't see people regularly. So, you need

to put in your calendar time for those

relationships. Your friends, your

family, your kids,

your significant others. You have to put

that time in your schedule. Don't give

them whatever scraps of time are left

over. Put it in your schedule. Then

finally, your work domain. This is where

most people start, but it's actually I

think where we need to end.

Work comes in two flavors. We have

what's called reactive work and we have

reflective work.

Reactive work is how a lot of people how

distracted people spend their days.

Reacting to messages, reacting to

notifications, reacting to requests all

day long reacting to things. And that's

fine. Everybody's job will involve some

amount of reactive work. But if you're

not scheduling time for reflective work,

you're going to run real fast in the

wrong direction.

You have to put time in your schedule

to think.

If you want to do work that is creative,

work that requires focus, you have to

schedule that time. It's okay if it's

only 15, 20 minutes, but that time has

to be on your schedule. So, to answer

your question of, "Okay, well what do I

do with this this passion I have around

DJing?"

It's a factor of how much time you want

to put into it

based on your values, based on the kind

of person you want to become.

So, what would the Stephen you want to

become, how much time

time first and foremost, not outcome. I

think that's the problem with a lot of

goal planning. This is one of my beef

with with to-do lists. To-do lists are a

series of outputs.

I want to do this, I want to do this, I

want to do this, I want to and it has no

constraint.

A to-do list has no constraints. You can

always add more.

And so what happens?

You come home with your to-do list of a

million things after you've worked

really hard all day long

and most of those things you have not

crossed off.

So, what does that say to your

self-image if every day you come home

and all these things still haven't been

done after a long day of work and you

haven't done what you said you would do?

Loser.

So, day after day, week after week,

month after month, year after year,

you're reinforcing this self-image of

someone who doesn't do what they said

they were going to do.

Right? As opposed to a time box calendar

has constraints.

Same 24 hours in a day.

Right? And I don't care if you're Jeff

Bezos or Elon Musk, you can always make

more money, you can't make more time. I

think it's exactly flipped. Most people

are cheap with their money and generous

with their time. I think it should be

the opposite, right? We should be cheap

with our time and generous with our

money because you can always make more

money.

You can always make more money. You

cannot make more time. So, a time box

calendar forces you

to work with constraints and decide

based on your values how much time you

can afford to spend on whatever you want

to do.

Right? Because if you put in everything,

you you you'll get nothing. You'll live

in regret. Whereas if you say, "Look, I

only have

4 hours a week for DJing endeavors and

here's where I'm going to put that in

because I also want to spend time with

my friends. I need to take care of

myself. I need to take care of my

business." So, it's not based on

outcome,

it's based on input. Right? So, if you

went to a baker, okay, and you said,

"Hey, my kid has a birthday party. I

need

uh two dozen cupcakes."

Baker's going to say, "Okay, I need

flour, I need sugar, I need butter, I

need all these inputs. I need these

ingredients to make the output."

But when it comes to knowledge work,

we only think about the output.

But what's our input? Our input is just

two things, time and attention. Those

are our ingredients. That's it. So, you

can't just think about the output. You

can't just think about the cupcakes. You

have to think about the input. The input

is time and attention. And that, just

like ingredients for a cupcake, has to

be budgeted for. You have to plan that

ahead

or it's not going to work out. So, I

you're my inspiration for starting time

blocking, I've called it, but time

boxing.

Yeah, same thing. Um

and it's really, really been helpful

specifically in times when I'm not in

work. Mhm. So, when I go away to write,

for example, and I don't have meetings

that I like I have to do or that pop in

and out, etc. It's been super helpful.

And also, I'll be honest, during the

pandemic was when I really, to the point

that I started developing a time

blocking app with a friend of mine.

Because it was that useful for me. The

pandemic had happened, we weren't

meeting anybody, we weren't having sort

of in-person meetings. So, I had long

days, but that felt a bit more empty

than usual. So, to sort of get a grasp

on them and stop them being whittled

away with by distraction, I started time

blocking and it was amazing for me. I

guess one of the questions I want to ask

before I I get onto this is, do you even

So, I

in my personal relationship with my

girlfriend, we've been together for

about 4 years. Um pretty much ever since

we first met, me and you first met. Um

it's the first time I've lived with

someone.

She's moved in, we live together.

And

one of the things that

a busy lifestyle

can do, and I think you've described it

as well, is it can have an impact on

your sex life and relationship, dates,

date night, etc.

So, I proposed the idea to her

because of you.

I said,

"We should schedule these things because

I schedule everything else that's

important to me. Yeah. So, we should

schedule our date night and those kinds

of things. Right. Because that's equally

important to me, too. And she was a bit

resistant to the idea at first cuz it in

her her rebuttal was that it kind of

takes the

you know, the spontaneity and the spice

and the Date night or scheduling sex?

Cuz some people schedule sex. I don't go

that far. I wouldn't I wouldn't go as

far as scheduling sex, but it's really

like spending time together and doing

stuff. She like her she was resistant to

scheduling it because she felt that it

took the

you know, the like

But the the so there's an interesting

concept. Okay, so when I was um

my wife and I met at university and we

met in economics class.

And in this class, they discussed this

concept of a residual beneficiary.

A residual beneficiary in business is

the person, the chump, who receives

whatever's left over when a business is

sold. So, first debt holders get their

share, then the equity holders.

Whatever's left over, the residual

beneficiary gets. Right?

And after we'd been married for a few

years, she sat me down, she says, "Near,

you have turned me into the residual

beneficiary." Wow, what a thing to say.

Right? I get whatever scraps of time are

left over.

If If you and your relationship, by the

way, my book is not for people who have

a perfect life. Okay? I don't have a

perfect life. still get distracted from

time to time.

The difference is between a distractible

person and indistractible person is that

a distractible person keeps getting

distracted by the same things. Paulo

Coelho has a wonderful quote. He said,

"A mistake repeated more than once is a

decision."

Such a good quote. A mistake repeated

more than once is a decision.

Good, right?

So, distractible people keep getting

distracted by the same things again and

again. How many times are we going to

complain about Tik Tok and Facebook

before we say, "Enough, I'm going to do

something about it." Right?

Indistractible people say, "Okay, I got

distracted once, but you're not going to

let it happen again and again."

So, I'm going to take steps today to

prevent getting distracted tomorrow. So,

when my wife and I found that our

schedules were getting busier and

busier, and we weren't making the proper

time for each other, it wasn't happening

spontaneously,

then we had to go to plan B. And plan B

for a long time, the there was no plan.

It was just, "Well, it's not happening."

The the problem is

people interpret the fact

maybe you felt this

that not making time, not being

spontaneous, means that we don't love

each other as much. And I think that's a

huge mistake. That's not it at all. It

certainly wasn't in my relationship with

my wife. I still loved her just as much.

Just that I was busy, honey, and there's

this big thing happening here, and I

need to do this, I need to do that. And

the time would slip away, and we

wouldn't spend time together.

That's no indication that I don't love

my wife. It's an indication that I

didn't know how to prioritize my wife

properly. So, I stopped making her the

residual beneficiary. If we have extra

spontaneous time, you know, sometimes

a meeting is canceled. Great. Let's

Let's do something together.

But at minimum, we know on Friday

nights, that's our date night.

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I'm in an interesting phase at the

moment in my fitness and health journey

because because I'm training for Soccer

Aid, which takes place in June at Old

Trafford, I've been training a lot

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When we when we do fall out of

quote-unquote balance in some way, when

we maybe

don't have our priorities in order. At

least this is what people think.

People

diagnose themselves with this thing

called burnout. And I've been quite

intentional with my words there cuz I

have my own opinions on burnout. I don't

really think burnout

is what people think it is. People think

of burnout is basically doing too much

work.

Mhm. I think most people, 90% of people

would say that burnout is when you do

too much work.

Mhm.

It's a big topic in conversation now,

this subject matter of burnout. So, what

do you think burnout is?

So, there's some amazing research done

by two British researchers by the name

of Stansfeld and Candy, and they

concluded that um

a toxic work environment

is not the work you do,

it's the type of work you do.

And so, they wanted to see that the the

the study was, "What kind of work

correlates with increased rates of

depression and anxiety disorders?" And

they found two conditions that raised

the rates

of anxiety and depression. They

literally the kind of jobs that make you

sick psychologically. And those two

conditions are high expectations coupled

with low control.

Coupled with Exactly. Low control. So,

high expectations and low control. If

you had high expectations and high

control, no problem. People rise to the

occasion. But when you have a job with

high expectations and low control,

that's burnout.

Why? Because it's a lack of agency. I'm

expected to do all this,

I can't. Right? I'm trying. I'm trying.

I'm trying. But as much as I do, my my

I don't have enough agency to meet these

expectations. So, let's zoom in on both

of those. I'm really compelled by this

idea of low control. Mhm. Um

when people think of control, that can

mean a number of things.

Is that the ability to make decisions

for myself on how to accomplish the

challenge? To affect the the outcome.

Okay. Right? So, if you have um

uh you know, you're you're

a small cog in a big machine, but you

have these very high expectations, but

it's doesn't all depend on you. There

are other people Exactly.

The circumstances

circumstances beyond your control that

is hard No matter how hard you work, you

can't meet

someone's expectations.

Why?

I'm trying to think from this the

psychological discomfort framework, why

that

that environment of high expectations,

this being pulled this way, but then

being suppressed on this end, would

cause

burnout. And burnout, I guess we have to

define it as that What is it? It's the

sort of psychological overwhelm, which

It's giving up. Which makes you give up.

Yeah, it's uh

I think it's because it's the

it's the definition of death.

Right? Schopenhauer describes life

as anything that tries to affect its

environment.

Life is defined by something that

affects its outside environment. Changes

where it is to its benefit in some way.

That's what an alive organism is. So, if

you cannot change your environment, you

cannot change your circumstances, it

feels like death. And eventually you

give up. It's you you learn

helplessness.

Where eventually it's not worth

continuing to try because you can't

affect the outcomes.

I've always thought of burnout as being

somewhat sort of intrinsically attached

to meaning. Mhm. And it maybe that's it

That's exactly what you're describing

there because you're being robbed of

your ability to affect your outside

environment, which maybe is what meaning

is. Meaning is I think the can be the

relief valve.

So, if you are toiling, I mean, you

think about the role of religion in in

many people's lives historically,

religion tells you that even though your

lot in life may not change, right?

There is reward to come. So, you are you

have agency. You have control. It's just

that the reward is delayed. Mhm. So,

even if your life is awful now, someday

it'll be better.

That's that gives you agency. So, that's

meaning, right? That gives you that that

meaning, that purpose of it's coming

someday.

But if you believe that there's nothing

you can do to get that reward, that it

makes no difference,

uh then the only logical thing to do is

to quit. I might be totally wrong here,

but I I think the reason I thought

meaning was so important was because I

when you when you think about people in

roles that typically feel that burnout,

it seemed to me that it was like

monotonous, tedious work where

you know, maybe like working on a

production line where you're doing very,

very long hours of work that is absent

of meaning for you. You don't really

care about the work, but you're being

pressed to do long hours.

So, that's was my kind of understanding

of it cuz I tried to contrast it to

areas where I never get burnout.

You know, watching Manchester United

play, or playing video games, whatever.

And I thought, "What's the difference?"

Well, it's because of my sort of

subjective meaning or enjoyment of the

task. So, I thought the enjoyment and

the meaning part was central somehow to

but becoming burnt out.

Mhm. Mhm.

Uh

I don't know. I'm I'm not sure if it's

necessarily

uh requires meaning per se. I mean, you

see people working

two, three jobs uh sometimes, you know,

when they're when they're getting

started from base level just to feed

their kids. Um

it's they can they can do very

repetitive, boring work, and they do it

uh because they are affecting change.

They have agency. They can see the

results. They need to feed their

families.

And this idea of agency and control is

fundamentally linked to our physio

physiological health as well, which I

find quite surprising that people that

have greater degrees of control in their

professional endeavors are healthier.

Right. This concept of locus of control.

Right? Where it's external locus of

control versus internal locus of

control. People who have external locus

of control believe that things happen to

them. People who have internal locus of

control believe that they affect change.

And what's fascinating about this is

that uh people who have internal locus

of control on every metric of well-being

do better. They're wealthier, they have

more they have better relationships,

they're healthier. Every metric of

well-being having an internal locus of

control benefits you.

Even when your circumstances dictate

that you shouldn't think that you had

that much control. Even when you're in a

really awful situation, believing you

have agency makes you better off, even

if it's not true.

Because that mindset, again, back to

what we were saying earlier about how

mindset affects what we do. If you

believe willpower's limited, you will

act as such, right? I used to come home