And this is the goal. The goal is no

because you're going to get nos. And

then I'm going to call you after you've

made the approach. You're going to text

me, I did an approach. Did you get a no?

Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the

point. That's the goal. Cuz everyone you

admire, everyone you think has killed

it. The only thing I can guarantee you

is there were a ton of nos. than getting

to one of the top 10 podcasts in the

world, getting to a person as a partner

who's higher character and hotter than

you, getting to make more money than you

would have ever guessed that person

would have made. The only thing that got

them there was the willingness in the

endurance to re to anticipate no.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway

is a professor at New York University's

Stern School of Business and one of the

world's leading public educators on

intelligent life design, including

finances, relationships, and as today's

conversation also covers, on the

socopolitical landscape. Today we mainly

talk about masculinity and what men

young and old and everything in between

are facing today in terms of their roles

to take in work, in relationships, and

their health. And today we don't just

review the data. You'll hear statistics.

So Scott is very grounded in

quantitative data, which is important,

but he also shares several clear

actionable steps that you can take daily

to ensure that you're making progress in

work and relationships and finances. We

also get into a bit of debate or more

about things like alcohol, the

benevolence or lack thereof of big tech

and social media. And we talk a lot

about the male female dynamics in terms

of the consequences of single bomb homes

and divorce, but just generally male

female dynamics. So while today's

episode does include a lot of

exploration of different topics that

frankly I didn't anticipate, it's also

very proactive. Scott delineates the

things that you can do and frankly

should do each day. These aren't just

lists or hacks, but effective tools that

come from knowledge, data, his deep

thinking, and that reflect the landscape

we are in now. I'm very grateful that

Scott took the time for this

conversation. You'll see that we agree

on many things. We disagree on several.

He's a very deep thinker, extremely

smart, obviously. He also cares about

people. That comes through over and over

again. And he's extremely generous today

on your behalf with indeed tough love

knowledge. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Scott

Galloway. Scott Galloway, welcome.

>> Thanks, man. It's good to see you.

Actually, I was nervous driving over

here. I I I like you and respect you and

I was think I was trying to figure out

why I was nervous. I really want to I

want to do well today. And the last time

I had this feeling was when I was going

to do Rich Rolls podcast. I really like

like you. I really like and respect Rich

and I remember thinking I had that same

feeling. I wanted to do well. Anyways,

good to be here.

>> Oh man. Well, great to have you here.

It's funny you say that cuz um you know

I was coming here and I was thinking,

yeah, look up to Scott. Like I respect

him and we've had one conversation prior

to this that ended up being quite

extended conversation. And I'm I told

Rob right before coming in here, our

producer, I'm super fired up toss to

learn from you and just sit down and

chat with you. So

>> I actually am going to do something

differently this podcast than any other

podcast, which is the question I'm about

to ask or the kind of thing I'm about to

pose, I normally would do off camera.

>> Okay.

>> I'm do it on camera, which is coming in

here today. It occurred to me that we as

a How old are you?

>> I'm going to be 62 in November.

>> 62. You look great, man. you can share

what you're doing if we get the time.

Um, fitness wise, I'm 50 and the risk we

run into, I realize, is that when I was

16, 20, 30, etc., yes, I wanted

knowledge.

>> Mhm.

>> Maybe even wisdom from elders, but I

also knew with certainty that they

didn't understand a thing about what it

was like to be that age at that time. So

I realize that as much as we might think

we know, we don't know what it's like to

be 16, 25, 30, 40 year old men, and

we'll also talk about women today, but

probably mostly men

>> in 2026. And so how do we reconcile that

in a discussion like this? I just wanted

to ask you, how do you think about that?

because so much of your content and what

you're teaching out there is about

timeless truths, but there's also a lot

of things that are happening now, not

just pain points, but maybe

opportunities that I don't know how do

you think about

do we really know like how how should we

pass along information in a way that's

truly useful to people because that's

what obviously we both want this to be

about. Well, just what you said, you

can't you can't fully relate to a 16 if

you're not 16 years old and know what

they're going through. And what you

know, you you guys are skateboarders.

And when I was 16, I got home and it was

either watch cartoons until my mom got

home or it was take risks and go out and

find friends and and do things. And now

there's so much temptation at home

between big tech and having a casino in

your pocket and Netflix in your pocket

and porn in your pocket. it's just hard

to relate to what they go through. I

think the first thing is just

acknowledging, you know, you don't know

what you don't know and then turning to

data because there are people who look

at the data and I try to counter my

biases or my, you know, my uninformed

thesis with data and so I try to find

good people, good research and inform

it. Also, it helps. I have 15 and

18-year-old sons. I ask them a lot. I

observe them a lot. I hang out with them

a lot and you start to pick up on stuff.

But I think the first is just being open

to people pushing back and recognizing

unfortunately every once in a while in

the comment when someone points

something out and going if it really

hurts and it's upsetting it's usually

because they're right and they found

some soft tissue and they've pressed on

it. So and I try to be open to learning

and and you know just acknowledging when

I I got it wrong. What do you think are

the could be three, could be five, could

be 10 things that all males should

strive to check the boxes on in order to

have a good life, not just to, you know,

be great in some particular role, but

like what are what are the

macronutrients in your opinion of

becoming a healthy, happy, fulfilled

male?

>> I think every person, not just every

man, needs a code. And that is you're

going to be faced with hundreds of

decisions each day and you want to make

generally speaking a higher proportion

of good decisions than the peer group.

Right? So what helps is a code. Some

people get that code from religion, the

military. There are really strong family

connections. I actually got my first

kind of code from my first job there. I

worked at Morgan Stanley. There was just

a certain level of professionalism. I

got code from sports at UCLA. Uh but I I

wonder there's so many lost men right

now. I wonder if masculinity can be a

code or some sort of aspirational form

of masculinity where people born as

males might have an easier time leaning

in. And I should also say that I don't

think masculinity or femininity are

sequestered to people born as males or

females. I'm drawn to men who are more

feminine as friends. My close friends

kind of take care of me and are more

nurturing. But I think for young men, if

they feel like they can lean into some

positive masculine attributes that it

could serve as a code. So I loosely

break it down into three very reductive

qualities and that is the first is to be

a provider. I'm not talking about the

way the world is but the way the world

should be. I think every young man

should have a plan and have an

assumption that at some point he will

have to be the economic lead or provider

for for his family. Sometimes that means

getting out of the way of your partner

who's better at that whole money thing.

Sometimes it means providing more

domestic or emotional support and labor

if your partner is accelerating

economically. When my partner had a kid,

she was working at Goldman Sachs. She

was making more money than me. I was a

new academic at NYU. I was making

$160,000 living in New York, which is

may sound like a lot of money, but it

wasn't. And she was making substantially

more. So, I tried to pick up slack and

and and provide more labor at home and

take charge of our finances. But I think

at the outset, trying to find a plan to

be economically relevant in a capitalist

society is really important because

whether we like to admit it or not, a

male from a self-esteem standpoint, from

a sexual currency standpoint, from the

esteem of the tribe or the society is

going to be disproportionately evaluated

based on your economic viability. So

from an early age, try and have a plan.

You may not have to stick to that plan.

I'm not saying you got to go to Harvard

and go to work at Goldman Sachs, but

maybe you're going to go to trade

school, learn how to install energy

efficient HVAC, but you just need a

plan. You be moving towards something.

The second is protector. If you think

about the most masculine jobs, fireman,

cop, military, the notion is you develop

skills and strengths such you can

protect others. And the most, if you

will, manly, masculine, satisfied I ever

feel is at night when I feel as if my

family feels protected. The kids are

asleep, my partner feels loved and

supported, and I've I've been able to

hopefully through partnership, through

economic valuability, been able to

provide a warm, comfortable life for

them so they can focus on the things

that are important to them. And I think

unfortunately a lot of men that we

should look up to, whether it's the

president, I apologize for getting

political, or the wealthiest man in the

world who are naturally going to be seen

as male role models, they seem to have

skipped the protection part. that the

whole shooting match, the whole reason

you make money, that's the means, but

the ends is such that you can protect

others. I find that's the most rewarding

thing in the world. And then finally,

procreator, and that is uh I think we

need to stop demonizing young men's

desire for relationships and sexual

desires. I think a young man wanting to

have sex is can be a tremendous

motivator to be a better man. It's like

fire. It can be incredibly destructive,

but if you put it in a steel casing with

spark plugs, it can create tremendous

progress. And the story I use is that I

was at the Raleigh Hotel in Miami and I

saw a very attractive woman. And it was

the middle of the day and without the

benefit of alcohol, I didn't have the

confidence to approach her, but I

promised myself I was going to approach

her. And then I went out to get my car

from the valet and was sitting in the

car and I'm like, "God, you're such a

[ __ ] wimp." So I ran back in, went up

to her and said, "Hi, I'm Scott. Where

are you from?" Anyways, long story

short, 18 months later, our son's middle

name is is uh born was Raleigh. And I I

didn't look at her, Andrew, and think

I'd really like lower rates on auto

insurance. I looked at her and thought,

I'd really like to have sex with her.

And I think young men's desire for

relationships and sex, if channeled

correctly, makes you want to be a better

man. Have a a kindness practice.

Demonstrate excellence. Shower for God's

sakes. Work out. Have a plan. Have

resilience. Have perseverance.

demonstrate excellence. So in some

provider, protector, procreator, where I

think I missed it in the book, and I'd

love your response because I'm open to

criticism here is one that's what work

worked for me and I think a lot of

younger people there's different forms

of masculinity that don't necessarily

involve being economically secure,

finding finding a mate. And also the

component I've really missed is service.

And I think a great great kind of one

question or proxy for masculinity in

terms of what you do every day is are

you optimizing for attention or service?

Right? And and then the litmus test that

Richard Reeves kind of gave me uh who's

sort of my Yoda on this stuff is this

notion of surplus value that some men

are born males but never they die never

having become men. It's not about a

religious ceremony and age or you know

some sort of experience or ritual. It's

about at some point can you honestly

look in the mirror and say I add surplus

value. I create more tax revenue in jobs

than I absorb. Everyone absorbs tax

revenue if you're in America. I listen

to more people complain than I complain.

Right? I love more people than love me.

And I didn't get that. I don't think I

really became a man well into my 40s

because I was always I took a capitalist

approach to relationships.

I always wanted more. I wanted a

girlfriend that was better to me than I

was to her. I wanted a job where I was

getting paid more maybe than I was

contributing. And then what you realize

as you get older is the whole shooting

match is to to create surplus value,

provide, be a better friend, be a better

partner. There's no way my kids will

ever be able to return as much as I've

invested in them. I mean, we have these,

you know, the Hallmark Channel and

insurance commercials will tell me that

I'll have these moments, and I get

those, but my kids are never up at 2 am

worried about me. They just aren't,

right? I' I'm spending a ton I always

say to them, you're adding negative

value. Just be clear, you go to these

amazing schools, all these talented

people, negative value. Me and your mom,

we are constantly investing in you. This

would be impossible for you to pass

back. What I figured out is that's the

whole shooting match is I'm finally

Andrew finally at a place of surplus

value. I apologize for the word salary

provider, protector, procreator. Um are

you are you optimizing for service not

attention? And do you can you really say

you add surplus value?

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the episode description. I love all

that. I don't have anything to add. I do

have two questions and one reflection.

The reflection is that what you started

with that every day you're making

decisions all day long. And you want

more of those to be good decisions than

bad decisions relative to your peers. I

think that's a a terrific way to think

about striving and I've never heard it

posed that way. So I really just want to

bold underline and highlight that for

everyone. For the eighth grader, for the

12th grader, for the college junior, the

40year-old man,

make better decisions than the average

around you. The problem I have, I guess

I do have one one caveat here, is um

that most people won't remember this,

but that show Jerry Springer I think was

so popular because people like to focus

on all the people doing worse than them

because it makes it easy to stay right

where you're at.

>> Yeah.

>> So, who are the comparison points that

one can keep in mind as they strive to

make these better decisions each day?

Because I think that first statement you

made is touching into some serious

wisdom. So, who is the comparison point

and how do you keep that framed? because

you study markets, you understand

markets. What's the market comparison

point in this? Make more better

decisions than worse ones relative to

the average as you progress through your

day.

>> I think it's really important, I mean,

you're talking a little bit about role

models and references. And so, first

off, one myth I think we need to dispel

is that success equals exploitation.

There's a very unhealthy zeitgeist,

especially from the far left, that

anyone who's very successful is

exploiting others. And I think we need

to puncture that narrative and say you

should strive to be successful. And

success might mean certain things for

other people. I didn't grow up with

money. So for me, success for most of my

life was trying to get economic

security. I I was anxiety plagued my mom

and I, economic anxiety, and it was like

a ghost following us around telling us

we weren't worthy. So my role models

were always people who had figured out

economic success and people have to pick

their own role models. I always thought

masculinity was getting back in

someone's face who wasn't didn't give me

the respect I thought I deserved. I was

that [ __ ] that when someone cut me

off in traffic felt like I needed to

speed up and cut them off. That if the

Delta ticket counter representative

wasn't kind to me or was busy, I would

get back in their face. It's like, well,

do you realize I'm a 1K member? And

then, you know, a decent reference point

is just men you admire and they're

everywhere that perhaps don't can take

blows. They realize someone might be

having a bad day. But you said something

that that inspired a thought in that

what I just outlined is pretty meta. You

know, kind of themes that sometimes

aren't that actionable. So, I just want

to bring it down one level. As we were

talking about off mic, I try and mentor

two or three young men at any given

time. And these are young men that quite

frankly need mentoring. They're

struggling. Most of them might be still

living at home. You know, they're not

these aren't people who went to Brown

and are working at Goldman Sachs. And

so, some just some more tactical things

that I think serve as a reference point

for how you succeed or how you make

progress. The first thing I do, the

first hack is I say, "Unlock your

phone." And I'm going to look at it. And

there's a little bit of nervousness. So,

what I do to loosen them up or lubricate

it is I say, "Okay, let me tell you two

things. First is I gamble. I don't

gamble on FanDuel. I gamble with

options. I know it's stupid. I know I'm

going to lose money over the long term.

I'm a smart guy. I love markets, but

that dope a hit I get is too seductive.

So, I sell calls and and and puts. Uh I

consume porn. That's sort of not that's

not a that's an embarrassing thing to

say at 61, but yeah, I still consume

porn. But I tell them that and it

lubricates or it it makes them more

comfortable. I open their phone.

Everyone has an advantage. Most young

men who are not excelling, if you will,

by traditional western capitalist

standards, their advantage is capital.

Specifically, their human capital. They

have time. And within about 5 to 7

minutes, I can find eight hours of time

from Tik Tok, from X, from porn, from

gambling sites, from YouTube. I'm like,

we're going to find eight hours. You

tell me we're we're going to reduce this

eight hours. Next week I'm going to

check and we're going to reallocate that

capital into three things. The first is

we're going to get really [ __ ]

strong. I just think the best

anti-depressant is moving weights,

building some bulk or running far. I'

I've jokingly said every man under the

age of 30 should aspire to be able to

walk into any room and know if [ __ ] got

real they could kill and eat everybody

or outrun them. Like there's different

forms of fitness. You can be fast, you

can be flexible, you can be strong, but

there's no excuse. the male form is

blessed with, you know, more bone

density, double twitch muscle, all the

things you talk about, this incredible

substance that pours over called

testosterone. You're going to look back

when you're my age and think, why wasn't

I just fast, sleek, a monster, just

strong, so we're going to work out at

least three times a week. The second

thing is we got to make some money. And

I want you to make money outside your

house. You know, I don't care if you're

a lift driver, task rabbiter, Panera is

hiring people at 18 bucks an hour and

only one out of 10 that accept a job

actually owe up show up the first day.

So, if you make if you really make the

effort, you can make decent money. And

the great thing about getting a taste

for the flesh of money is you start

learning how to make more money. If you

want to make a lot of money, unless

you're smart enough to be born to rich

parents, start off by making a little

bit of money and you'll start to figure

out capitalism, right? And the final

thing is at least three times a month

we're going to put ourselves in a group

sitting where we are trying to achieve

something great in the agency of others.

A nonprofit, a church group, a sports

league, a writing club. And then the

second phase of that is we're going to

do something what I call the approach.

Hey, hey man, do you want to go watch

the Jets game? Right? An expression of

friendship. And then if you're really

comfortable, an expression of romantic

interest while making them feel safe.

would you like to grab a coffee

sometime? And this is the goal. The goal

is no because you're going to get nos.

And then I'm going to call you after

you've made the approach, you're going

to text me, I did an approach. Did you

get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's

exactly the point. That's the goal. Cuz

everyone you admire, everyone you think

has killed it. The only thing I can

guarantee you is there were a [ __ ] ton

of nos in getting to one of the top 10

podcasts in the world. Getting to a

person as a partner who's higher

character and hotter than you, getting

to make more money than you would have

ever guessed that person would have

made. The only thing that got them there

was the willingness and the endurance to

re to anticipate no. And unfortunately,

big tech is setting up an algorithm that

convinces you that a frictionless life

is a good life and that you never need

to endure no. And what you end up with

is a lack of skills to to p persevere,

to realize you're okay. And that's what

I ask the kids the next day. Are you

okay? Yeah, I'm bummed out, but you're

okay. If a man under the age of 30 works

out three times a week, works 30 hours a

week outside of the house, right? And is

volunteering, that immediately puts him

in the top 8% of all young men. And I

apologize for the word salad here, but

something I hate is the incel movement.

involuntarily celibate. Right?

Throughout history, 99% of men have been

involuntarily celibate for most of their

lives. There's few things young men

would rather be doing than having sex.

Only 40% of men have reproduced

throughout history. 80% of women. So, no

man has a birthight to reproduce. In the

West, it's actually now 75%. So, young

men have more agency than they ever

have. Now, if you do those things right,

just those three things, work outside of

the house, work out, have a kindness

practice, uh volunteer in the service of

others, you're immediately going to put

yourself in the top desile of young men.

And if you're in the top desile of young

men, I can guarantee you over time you

will become voluntarily incelibate,

which is awesome because you'll

establish a relationship. And young men

under the age of 30, a lot of the

research shows, benefit more from a

relationship than women. Yet only one in

three men under the age of 30 is in a

relationship. Whereas two in three women

are in a relationship. And you think,

well, Scott, that's mathematically

impossible. It's not because women are

dating older because they want more

economically and emotionally viable men.

So, I'll circle back to the more

tactical recommendations. Get fit, start

making some money, have a plan, and

start doing things in the agency of

others. I think the ultimate hack for

depression or if you're feeling bad

about yourself is to start helping

others and to always keep in mind and

this is the hard part that the

antichrist of your progress as a young

man the devil the [ __ ] enemy the

villain here the bond villain with

trillions of dollars is big tech. They

are trying to figure out with AI a

million times a second how to convince

you to spend one more second a day on

your phone sequestered from your

relationships because they're a

shareholder value. 40% of the S&P is 10

companies whose sole mission is to

monetize your time. And unfortunately

they're not they're not bad people but

what they're doing has resulted in a

small group a cohort of men. It's not

small. Millions of men who are evolving

into a new species of asocial, asexual

males, who wake up at the age of 30

thinking they've had a frictionless

life, living at home, obese, anxious,

and depressed, having never developed

the skills that they need to do well

professionally, personally. So big tech

is not your friend. If you do not figure

out how to modulate big tech products,

whether it's Instagram or YouTube, you

are falling into a trap of eventually

being sequestered and not developing the

skills to establish the most important

thing in life and that is relationships.

>> Two questions about big tech and I'll

just push back a little bit on the big

tech thing. Uh not because I'm afraid of

big tech. I did grow up in Silicon

Valley so I I

>> Well, you're at Stanford.

>> Yeah. Invariably have a different

relationship to it. And I uh I'm not um

name dropping. I happen to be close with

some of the people that run these

companies or in number, you know, two or

number four slots or, you know, in some

cases who run the companies. One who

I've never met, who I'll just raise

first, um is who you referred to

earlier, the richest man in the world is

Elon Musk.

>> And I was frankly a little bit surprised

that you um called him out when

discussing the importance of being a

protector. I understand the political

side. Well, let's just for the moment I

will just set Trump aside. Um, very

polarizing figure.

>> Happy to go there if you want, but I

know your stance on him. But the the

mention of Elon and as a nonp protector

surprised me

>> because I think of Elon as somebody who

seems to love his children very much.

Uh, he's organized family differently

than most, but he certainly has the

capacity to take care of them. Who is

committed to big projects. Mhm.

>> I mean, a a superhuman level of of

output in terms of just neural link, the

field that I'm closest to, right?

Phenomenal progress. And that's just one

of the SpaceX Neural Link, Tesla X, etc.

So, I'm just curious what um motivated

that. Do you that um makes you uh

because I don't see him as a nonproctor.

I I don't know that I see him

>> as a protector of a particular kind in

his personal life, but I don't have

access to that. But in terms of his

motivation to pro protect our species,

>> I personally believe his desire to get

to Mars is a genuine one

>> to have an option uh for humanity. So I

see him as a protector. And I'll

probably piss off a lot of people by

saying this, but that doesn't mean I

universally adopt everything he says and

does, but I see him as kind of an

awesome figure in our history who's

like, "Let's get to Mars in case this

Earth thing doesn't work out." And also,

let's get to Mars cuz it's awesome.

>> I think that's an entirely fair

viewpoint. and you're adding nuance to

it. So, let's talk about Elon Musk. If I

had a red button that I could push and

get rid of all of big tech or Elon Musk,

somehow he could float away like a

Gabriel Garcia Marquez

uh uh character and not die, but just

not not have happened. I wouldn't press

the button. I think big tech and Elon

Musk are net goods for the world.

>> We're going to get to EVs. We're going

to get to Mars faster because of Elon

Musk. He inspired the EV race, which is

good for the world. The problem is with

the word net. And as it relates to

masculinity and as a role model for

young men, he's probably one of the best

role models in terms of being super

aggressive, taking risks, ignoring the

noise, and just being laser-like

focused, telling an amazing story,

garnering capital. I mean, there's just

no getting around it. The guy's just an

inspiration. I think the whole shooting

match is if you become the richest man

in the world, I think he moved to

protection. I would argue that he's not

a great role model and that he has not

done a great job of convincing younger

men that protection and taking care of

others. I think the way he acquits

himself online by punching down when he

says something mean about somebody and I

know this and I'm fine because I have I

have money and I'm not dependent upon

any one person's opinion of me. But if

he says something negative about you and

calls you names, his 120 million

followers come for you. And I think as a

general rule, and this is true for

everybody, but especially for men, you

never punch down. You just don't.

anyone. I'm I'm openly I make personal

attacks on people. This is technically a

personal attack on Elon Musk. To call

someone not not not good a good role

model, that's a personal attack. But I

never make personal attacks of anyone

who isn't marketkedly more powerful than

me. And I find that a lot of these

people, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, have

no problem punching down. So again, it

goes back to this. Is he a net good for

the world? I acknowledge the point. And

I would even argue, yeah, he is. But

that doesn't he should also be held

accountable for his blessings. I can't

stand the fact that he should post

America and the government. If you look

at the most successful companies in the

world, they're littered up and down the

coast right now. Whether it's Qualcomm

and San Diego,

SpaceX and Snap here, head north to

Salesforce and Meta and Google, keep

going, you hit Amazon and Microsoft, and

then it stops once you get to the

Canadian border. And then you have to go

all the way up to Lululemon to find a

multi-billion dollar company. Come back

down to where you teach at UC San Diego

and those great companies and it stops

and you got to go to another 7,000

kilometers to get the Marcato Libé and

Buenosarees. There's something about

America that creates unbelievable

opportunity that creates the wealthiest

men in the world. And I find that these

tech brothers have a total lack of

appreciation for the sacrifices in the

system built in America and are the

first to ship post the government and

complain about regulation and things

getting in the way. I find that

especially obnoxious. But let me

acknowledge the point. I think on the

whole Elon Musk and big tech are a net

good for the world, but that doesn't

mean we shouldn't hold them accountable

and ask why would you do these things

when you're so blessed?

So, this gets to the heart of something

that I think is extremely important,

which is we're living in the age of

everything pretty much being public

about public figures. Not everything,

but many more facets of their lives than

ever before in history. In part because

they share many more facets of their

lives. It's not just that stuff gets

unearthed. It's like they're talking

about their company. They're also in the

role of arguing with their ex on

sometimes online. And you know, you see

that their kids sometimes will will be

apparent who they are. You know, it's

interesting. My my dad, first generation

immigrant who came here, became a

scientist, and he he's from Argentina,

and he along these lines, he always said

it was funny to him that when you would

go to somebody's office in the United

States, a professor or a businessman or

something, the picture of his family was

facing out.

>> He said that was so weird. He said, "In

Argentina, your picture of your wife and

your kids and your and your dog were

facing in. That's yours. you don't share

that with a person coming to your

office. Like who would do that? This

oversharing thing if it when you look

back is a kind of a a long-standing

theme in American business and it it

shows up even more so of course online.

So to me this this idea of okay Elon for

instance but very different um role

model figure someone that I consider a

close friend Joo Willink incredibly

impressive

>> true warrior

>> great dad great husband I know his

family amazing human being in so many

ways and he's kind of like the tough

football coach that a lot of guys didn't

have that younger guys I think that's

one of the reasons people gravitate

towards him you don't wonder whether or

not he really can do what he says you

ought to do because he does it every day

and he posts it on his watch. So Jaco is

a really good example

>> of somebody that people admire and I

consider Jaco one example. So why not

look at public figures

>> you and perhaps even me for instance and

just look at it these people as a buffet

of options to adopt certain traits but

not others be doing great things and

assuming that the other things they're

doing aren't you know truly atrocious

right I mean criminal atrocious you know

>> I don't know that we're asking the

people who are role models leaders

business leaders

>> I don't think we're placing a reasonable

expectation on them I don't say this for

any personal reasons I I've known

replete with flaws for the very long

time. So I don't claim to not have them,

never have. But then young guys are

might be thinking, well, I have to be

perfect, too. And if I'm not perfect and

I don't have 150 million followers, I

better have a fraternity of people to

protect me. This is the kind of the

underlying current that I think has

driven the toxic end of the hate the

word, the manosphere. I hate it because

it's become too mishmashy. Mhm.

>> It's not it's not even a continuum. It's

just a mess. So,

what do you have to say and think about

the expectation that the leaders of the

world, the role model

not have these flaws?

>> Mhm.

>> At the same time, telling guys, hey,

like ask and get told no.

>> Mhm.

>> I mean, you and I both know I don't know

if it's real world data or if it's

statistical data, but I have many women

friends in my life and I have a sister.

If an attractive guy rolls up on a woman

and says, "Hey, you want to get coffee

sometime?"

>> It's romantic.

>> It's romantic. If a guy that's not

attractive does that,

>> it's creepy.

>> It's creepy. So, how do you tell a guy

that isn't good-looking?

>> Yeah.

>> To do that, and then not be called a

creep. And not just be called a creep,

but be called a creep on an app, which

isn't just designed to prevent sexual

assault, but is also designed to share

information about who to date and not to

date. And guys get black. I'm told by

young guys, I'm not on dating apps, but

that guys get blacklisted basically,

>> not because of sexual assault, but

because, you know, they get called out

as like a bad kisser. He didn't smell so

good or something. This is the stuff

that used to be in private discussions

among women. I know this cuz I have a

sister, right? Women talk. I listen

through the wall, right? What do they

talk about? And

>> now it's public. There's parallel

construction here. I'm sure you're

tracking it. But for everyone listening,

it's like this is a serious problem.

Mhm.

>> I mean, can't we acknowledge that

somebody like Elon, let's just stay on

that example, is a is a phenom that

probably has never existed inund at

least a hundred years.

>> Mhm.

>> Has huge vision. Sure, he might have

some like issues in his in his life that

are none of my business. And yet he has

a lot of good example to set for young

men. I believe that. And it also gives

permission to not be perfect

without harming people.

So,

uh, acknowledge the point. There's a lot

there, but I still think if someone is

um constantly optimizing for attention

to draw cheap capital to his firms and

is very open and very critical of others

and is probably the most dominant force

in electing the next president,

um that we should pay very close

attention to his activities, whether

it's a reported addiction to ketamine

and and sleeping with a loaded gun next

to his bed and not living with any of

his children, whether it's

>> you think that should be public fair

game.

>> I think if he wants to put certain

aspects of his life out there constantly

for affirmation, that that type of

scrutiny is probably fair game. I also

acknowledge the point that people are

human and you need to have some grace

and say, well, unless you're perfect,

try and learn from people, try and

understand them, and try and demonstrate

some grace. The other thing going back

to big tech is that we have connected um

economic

value to tearing down people. So you've

had bestsellers. I've had bestsellers.

>> I still my book hasn't come out yet. I

hope for it to be a bestseller.

>> You haven't? Do you have a book?

>> No, it comes out in September. It's been

delayed for a while, but but I

appreciate the

>> I feel like I've already read it.

>> No. Well, God God willing as well. If it

doesn't it doesn't

>> Let me Let me prepare because I think

you're actually my I don't know you

well, but I do know you. I get the sense

that like me a lot of the criticism

doesn't just bounce right off you that

you take the stuff to heart and

sometimes it upsets you. I know it.

Okay, I'll say it upsets me.

>> Some of it does, but it's not the

criticism that people think upsets me.

That upsets me, but that's a different

story.

>> Your book will be a bestseller. You you

could put out you could you could put

out I don't know the the the script of

The Sound of Music and it's going to be

a bestseller. It'll be better than if I

had done that, but not better than The

Sound of Music.

>> There you go. And this is what uh Tik

Tok and YouTube, the algorithms, it

someone will immediately say, "This is

why Andrew Huberman's book is bullshit."

Because if they put a well-known

figure's name in front of a best-selling

book and says [ __ ] and creates

antagonism and comments, the algorithms

pick up on that, optimize it, it'll get

millions of views, which is more Nissan

ads and more shareholder value. So there

is not only a healthy check on people's

power, more scrutiny. The president

should get a lot of scrutiny. The

president deserves to have his business

and personal life uh to a certain extent

at least where it demonstrates character

looked into and examined and I think a

certain amount of power and healthy

check on power is probably a healthy

thing. Unfortunately now there's

economic incentive around tearing people

down. Like I don't know about you I do

have a real fear. I am highly imperfect

professionally and personally. I've

engaged in a lot of professional and

personal behavior that I am not proud

of. I've been divorced. I haven't been

as kind to people that have worked for

me as I should have been. And I'm

worried it's all going to come crashing

down. And a lot of times I feel like the

stuff I'm saying on podcasts like this,

I'm trying to portray myself as being

better than I actually am. I have huge

imposttor syndrome. And big tech has an

economic incentive in trying to find as

many guardians of gotcha pins as

possible because if you get to a certain

point of fame or credibility, there's

just too much money in trying to find

the soft tissue on you. So there's a

very unhealthy attribute in our society

where we're all just waiting for bad

news and there's economic incentive to

say, "Well, this person isn't perfect.

Look what this person did." So I agree

with you. We need to demonstrate a

little bit more grace. Something I

really hate about my party, I consider

myself a proud progressive, is these

purity tests, right? That Oh, you know,

I I put out a picture of me and a bunch

of buddies that I went to UCLA with.

One's a an aircraft carrier pilot, one's

an opthalmologist. Like, it was a

picture of all of us, and I've said, you

know, find impressive men and and

befriend them.

>> I think I saw that post. You were the

one towering over the rest of them.

>> Yeah. I think I shrunk. Huh.

>> Isn't that weird? No, I don't think you

know you now.

>> I was 6'3 in college. I'm 61 and a half

now. That's nice. I'm at an age where

I'm shrinking anyways. And I knew I was

just waiting for it. White privilege.

What a douchebag. What, you know, just

all the comments and all the sort of,

you know, people people coming after

you, right? Or people who can't just

say, "Oh, good for you. Well done." And

that's just part of it. And that's a

small price to pay for a certain level

of success, but the algorithms

immediately grab that and elevate it

because there's money and antagonism. A

thoughtful nuance conversation online

and a positive reinforcing comment that

that doesn't tickle the sensors. If you

can create a fight online, if you say

mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you're

going to get a lot of comments and the

algorithms love that and it'll elevate

it. So unfortunately, we have attached

40% of the market value of the S&P to

incendiary content that tears us apart.

And the result is people now don't

believe that Russian troops pouring over

the border in Ukraine is their enemy.

They believe that their neighbor with a

Trump sign is their real enemy. Or

someone who doesn't believe your

ideology around gender politics is your

enemy. And unfortunately, it's being I

believe, and I know this sounds

paranoid, but doesn't mean I'm wrong.

these poorest platforms that have an

economic incentive and antagonistic

content are being fueled

uh by bad actors whether it's the GRU or

the CCP who look at Americans say we

can't beat them economically we can't

beat them kinetically so let's get them

to hate each other and that is Americans

now perceive other Americans as the

biggest threat so one it is healthy to

look at powerful people that have huge

influence such as you and to a lesser

extent me and question their beliefs and

critical articles of them. It crushed me

when the I can't remember was the

Atlantic or the New York or New Yorker

came out with sort of a critical review

of my book. It was really upsetting to

me. And I think part of the thing that

was so upsetting was when we were

talking about this off mic, it meant

some of it was true. That's healthy.

It's healthy when there's thoughtful

criticism around your book. But when I

have hundreds of comments accusing me of

[ __ ] that never happened and then you

look at it and it's dogm Wisconsin 331

with three followers, that's a bot. And

the fact that these platforms choose not

to screen out those bots because they

know more incendiary comments that

create more comments and more Nissan

ads, I think that is tearing at the

fabric of America. But I just want to

acknowledge the point. I think maturity

is realizing people aren't perfect.

Learn from them what you can. But I do

think the wealthiest man in the world

and the president should be held to a

higher standard. I think they have

extraordinary blessings. I think their

decisions matter and I think it's I

think the scrutiny they come under is

warranted. And I will say this, I think

the president to a certain extent Elon

Musk have created a lot of cloud cover

for our imperfections.

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bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your

subscription. I disagree um vehemently

with one point, which is that I'm more

influential than you are. You're

incredibly influential. In fact, a a an

ex-girlfriend's sisterh who went to NYU

asked me if I knew who you were. I said,

"Of course." And and she said her words,

"For our generation, Scott is like a

father to us." It's like, "We" and she

happens to be in venture capital, but um

so maybe there's a finance link there,

too. And I but I pressed on that a

little bit and and just asked and and

she said, "Yeah, you know, we look up to

him. We listen to him. He's he's very

paternal to us." So, I thought you might

appreciate that. Um

>> I do appreciate that. Although I would

have woman as well.

>> I'd appreciate it more if she'd said

older brother.

>> I'm very conscious of my age now. But

>> really,

>> 100%.

>> You're in your 60s, you're super fit,

you got two healthy boys, you're in a

happy relationship, you got huge reach,

you I imagine your bank accounts are

fine, and you're trying to and you're

actively uh engaged in service. I I in

my eyes, you're doing great.

>> I appreciate that, but I' I'd rather be

doing I'd rather be in this spot at 40

at 41, not 61. I'm very I'm very

self-conscious about my age. But I just

want to go back to

something I think that gets in the way

of success

and has been a huge unlock for me is

it I mean it's not but your fear your

fear of criticism. If you're going to be

successful you're going to face

criticism. Starting a business is

subjecting yourself to public failure. I

want to go back to something you said

about approaching women and guys being

afraid to be that guy.

I think some of that is a little bit

exaggerated

>> and that most women if you are

respectful, the vast majority of women,

if you are respectful and approach a

woman at a bar, hi, how are you? And

she's not interested, you're going to be

fine and you're both going to be fine.

And just as I think there's two myths

that are damaging to the mating market,

which is really upsetting to me. One,

that men think that all women are

looking to or a lot of women are looking

to embarrass them and they might get

cancelled professionally. If you're

respectful to a woman and approach her

and make her feel safe and then if she's

not interested, politely exit, you're

going to be fine and so is she, and I

don't buy that your career, you're

taking your career in your hands, I

think that's just [ __ ] and an excuse

to be an incel. I just don't buy it. And

two, what really has been an enormous

unlock for me is I believe in my

atheism. I believe at some point I'm

going to look into my kids' eyes and

know our relationship is coming to an

end. I was [ __ ] their age. You got a

bunch of young dudes in here who look

like former Abbercrombie and Fitch

models. I remember they look like

they're 25. They're probably 35. It was

yesterday I was their age, which means

just in an instant I'm going to be again

at that moment where I know I don't have

much time left. And in a 100 years, no

one's going to give a [ __ ] what I said

or thought or did or the mistakes I

made. And embracing that and accepting

that has given me so much courage,

right, to start businesses, to make dumb

investments that might be crazy, to tell

to tell men in my life finally that I

love them or I'm impressed with them.

When I was their age, I had this weird

sense of masculinity that if I said,

"Oh, dude, look how handsome this dude

is." That it took away from my prestige

somehow that I couldn't tell people they

were impressive. I couldn't tell a

woman, "God, I'm just crazy about you

and I'm I would give anything to spend

more time with you because I was worried

that she wouldn't return my affection

and I would be just too hurt and I had

to be cool and like not need her or not

all this [ __ ] that got in the way of

me really having a good life." And what

I realized is every failure I've had,

people go, "Oh, his business went

bankrupt." Okay. And then they go back

to thinking about themselves. So,

everyone you're worried about really

doesn't give a [ __ ] about you. And by

the way, the dude that's not very

good-looking and is with a ridiculously

like high character hot woman is one of

two things. Has rich parents or two or

two is willing to endure rejection. So,

I I just don't buy I you know

that myth of the man risking his

personal and professional reputation. I

don't think that's true. On the other

side, the myth I hate, I don't know if

you've seen this on Tik Tok, a lot of

women are saying, "I don't date because

the risk of being unalived," which I

guess is the woke version of saying

murdered.

>> I think it's cuz on social media

platforms, if you say murder or suicide,

>> oh, it goes ranked down.

>> They I don't know if it actually does,

but it's this idea that Yeah. that it's

going to be uh ranked down.

>> Here's the data. Okay. If 2500 women a

year are murdered by men, that's way too

many. It's a huge problem. Sexual

assault is a bigger problem. The

majority of women who are murdered are

murdered by someone they know. So the

reality is a small number of women are

murdered on dates with strangers. It

just doesn't happen that often. And

40,000 men a year kill themselves. So if

you go on a date with a man, the man is

16 times more likely to go home and hurt

himself than hurt you. So what I would

say to men is make the approach, take

the risk, and as long as you're

respectful, you're going to be fine and

so is she. and you are not taking your

professional or personal reputation into

your hands. And what I would say to

women is if you go on a date with a guy

that you met on an app, there's all

sorts of digital breadcrumbs. And it's a

lot you you are and I can statistically

prove this. The ride over an Uber, the

Uber was a lot more dangerous than the

date itself. And you are more likely to

die of choking during dinner than to be

hurt by that man. So, what what I hate

is that there's all this inflammatory

content being boosted on online media

that's getting in the way of the most

rewarding thing in life, and that is to

find someone who you are physically

attracted to, who you sync up with

spiritually, and you decide to build a

life together. And not enough of that is

happening. We're in a sex recession,

right? And online is making it worse.

The dating apps have an incentive in you

finding a bigger, better deal. And the

genders have done an amazing job of

convincing each other it's the other's

fault. And I think one of the big fosi

that need to be really um pay more

attention to is what I call renewal of

alliances. I'd love to see a renewal of

alliances between us and our great

allies in Europe. Renewal of allies who

are moderates. I know nothing about you.

I just don't I just can't believe you're

an extremist on the left or the right. I

just don't. Bullseye. There needs to be

a renewal of alliances between what I'll

call moderate lefties like me and

moderate conservatives that are

everywhere. We're all Americans, but the

most important alliance that needs re

renewal is the greatest alliance in

history, hands down, and it's the

alliance between men and women. The

integration of female and male energy,

the ability to find someone you want to

procreate with, to build something

together, that is the most rewarding

thing in life. And I can prove it's key

to the species progress and existence.

And men and women have been taught not

to trust each other and to blame each

other. I hate the [ __ ] manosphere and

I hate the quite frankly some of the

reactionary notion on the left where

it's misandry cosplaying is social

commentary. There's a lot of [ __ ]

misandry online where you're assuming

every young man is a predator and quite

frankly that every billionaire is evil

or that every white person is racist.

But the alliance between men and women

needs to be reformed. It's the greatest

alliance in history. And online, it's

teaching men to blame women for their

problems. No. Women's as sense saved our

ass. Women in the factory in World War

II is the reason we won the war in four

years, not in seven. Women going into

the workforce in the 70s and 80s and

protections of their rights for fair pay

is the reason we're not a second tier

power to China right now. If women

hadn't ascended, we'd be really squarely

and duly [ __ ] right? And their ascent

is in no way inversely correlated or

correlated to men's descent. Men have to

stop that [ __ ] An immigrant didn't

take your job. He made it such you could

have lower rent, a meal for a reasonable

price, and have someone take care of

your mother when she's older. And at the

same time, if you're having romantic

problems, it's not her fault. Women are

ascending and naturally they have higher

standards because they're no longer

economically dependent upon men, which

should be a motivator for men to level

up, not to start blaming women. And all

this [ __ ] is being totally inflamed and

taken totally out of proportion by

online because it creates more

attention. It's interesting. It's novel.

And it creates more Nissan ads. But I

I'm trying to figure out what is the

economic incentive to try and figure out

a way to get more men and women

appreciating the other gender beyond

just the basics, right? How do we renew

that alliance?

I love that statement. I saw somewhere

of all places on X, you know, every once

in a while you encounter something that

really sticks with you. Every once in a

while there's a gem that just falls

through, really makes you think. And I

don't know who this person was. This

might have been an account with one

follower and it landed in front of me

and it said the way you destroy a

society is to get the men and women to

hate each other. And as a biologist

first and foremost I thought, well that

makes perfect sense, right? If you want

to eradicate a a population of any

species, you get the the males and the

females to start hating each other. Not

just because they don't mate, but

because you throw off the mating

dynamics in a way that then can create

infighting among the males. We see that

too. Infighting among the women.

Although I don't know, I I think that

there's a lot to explore around this

sort of what the standard is that we're

holding the opposite sex to. It's an

interesting question. I I I can't say

I've really evolved my thinking around

this enough to to maybe dive into it,

but I know you thought about this. I

think a lot of males hide behind this

notion that they have to be everything.

They have to be tall. They have to be

rich. They have to be jacked. They have

to be kind. They have to be, you know,

hopefully everyone's kind, but you know

what I mean, that they uh they can't say

the wrong thing even once, you know, so

they're hiding behind that and if they

go out and look, they'll get plenty of

evidence for that,

>> right? No men, no protectors, no this.

Actually, I I brought I did something I

rarely do.

>> Um, which is I brought my phone into

this because right before I came in

here, a woman that I've known for 20

years wrote, asked me if I would ask you

a question. No, and it's directly

related to this. So, I'm gonna do this.

Of course, I'm not gonna say who this

person is. And she said, cuz I'd

mentioned that I'm speaking to you

today, and she said, "Please tell Scott

that I'd personally like to thank him

for his efforts encouraging men to

embrace their duties as protectors,

providers, and generally just being

accountable because we have a serious

shortage among hetereroudes." She lives

in San Francisco, particularly in the

Bay Area. And I said, "We'll do, but can

you tell me what you mean by

accountable?" Serious question. I want

to make sure I'm specific. She said,

"When I say accountability, I'm

referring to the fact that many times in

romantic relationships, men seem to want

to avoid feelings of shame and guilt to

such a degree that they often respond to

their partner's feelings towards them

without empathy or accountability.

I find that here in okay, San Francisco,

there are many women in San Francisco. I

don't think I outed her here. Or perhaps

all major US metros, chivalry is dead.

Men are afraid to assert their desires

because they don't want the obligation

that it might entail." Interesting. They

give up when something requires internal

growth or leveling up. They shy away

from acting protective of their partners

in favor of egalitarian dynamics, which

is flawed since men's clear since men

clearly have more physical strength. Oh

my god, this goes on and on.

>> This is almost overwhelming me, but I

think I'm, you know, can grapple with

it. Oh, thank you. I swear I didn't

plant this. She said, none of this has

ever applied to you in case you're

serious. Thank you for that one, by the

way. She says they're wimpy. They avoid

relationships that require work and

responsibility because they don't want

to feel inadequate. They avoid difficult

conversations and repair because they

don't want to feel shame or guilt. They

avoid asking for anything explicitly

because they don't want to feel

obligated or complimenting a woman or

giving her flowers or romance. They're

all scared to do it. It's so odd.

Anyway, that's it.

>> That's all. Huh.

>> Okay. So, I I'm reading I'm hearing that

second part for the first time, the long

part. And I have to say, if I were a

25-year-old guy now, I' like,

>> whoa,

>> right,

>> that's a lot. Okay, there's something

there. They want me to bring flowers, be

romantic, be affectionate. Clearly,

there's a there's a reference towards

being sexually proactive there. And yet,

assume responsibility, level up, be

empathic.

>> You know, I'm not trying to defend or or

attack this person who's I'm close to in

my life, but that's a lot. That's a

that's a that's a tall building right

there to scale for a guy who's trying to

figure out how to work out three times a

week, get off point. Anyway, I thought

I'd share that and just get your

reflections.

I think that first off I think that

we all have a set of insecurities around

not living up mostly because again I I

come I really do think big tech has had

is is while it's a net good incredible

economic growth job growth I connect

with my buddies from college I get to

build a business and market it less

expensively I can break through voices

that can bubble up just based on their

talent

Teen suicide has skyrocketed since

social one on mobile. It's not the only

reason, but it's either number one or

number two. According to my colleague

Jonathan Height and Gene Twangi at San

Diego State, I don't believe there's any

reason that anyone under the age of 16

should be on social media where they

encouraged young girls are encouraged to

sexualize themselves. If they start

having suicidal ideiation, they are sent

an email that says verbatim, here are

some images on suicide we might we

thought you might find interesting. But

also, it's created unreasonable

expectations for a lot of young men and

young women about what they need to look

like. If they haven't made millions of

dollars, if they aren't on a private jet

going to Coachella, if they don't have a

boyfriend with a six-pack, if they if

they don't look just amazing all the

time, I think it creates tremendous

anxiety and unreasonable expectations.

But I do, you know, so I would argue

that who's Okay, so who's at fault?

We're at fault. in that as we keep

hoping or waiting for the better angels

of tech CEOs to show up. That's not

going to happen. I've been working my

whole life with CEOs, they're going to

make incremental decisions to do

whatever moves the stock price up.

That's their job. That's capitalism.

Their job is to take a set of resources,

figure out an offering where they get

more than they paid to garner those

resources and create shareholder value.

They will do anything to do that. That's

their job. And then we're supposed to

tax them such that we can build our

roads, take care of our veterans, and

have a set of laws so they don't get out

of control. So that they don't lie and

say, "No, smoking is not addictive." And

then our mothers, our sisters, and our

dads start dying, right? We have

regulation. We are net beneficiaries

from fossil fuels and pesticides, but we

still have an EPA and an FDA. There's

absolutely no regulation on big tech.

There's more regulation in this mic than

there is on big tech because they have

weaponized Washington and money and

Citizens United. There are more

full-time lobbyists living in Washington

DC working for Amazon, one company, than

there are sitting US senators. So, they

have very effectively avoided all

regulation to the point where they

basically run unfettered, whether it's

bots, whether it's harm to children,

whether it's letting bad actors try and

influence elections. and they in my

opinion if your content can be reverse

engineered to self harm among teens. If

your podcast if we could prove

statistically that your podcast was

resulting in self harm among teenage

girls, this podcast would be shut down.

You would be sued and you would

eventually decide to go out of business.

>> Yeah. Well, if we were harming people

appropriately so

>> I would argue big tech does that and

more every day. And these cases that

just came down actually one in LA that

found Google liable. Do you realize that

the New Mexico attorney general, do you

know what he did in his case? He created

an account posing as a 12-year-old girl

and within minutes he was getting

messages and solicitations from known

sexual abusers. That was their first

piece of evidence that if you create an

account and you say you're a 12-year-old

girl, within hours they were getting

overtures from known sexual predators.

So, the fact that this company can

target you and know that you're that I'm

wearing WBY Parkers and start serving me

ads by looking at the screen or know

that I'm at Coachella listening to David

Burn and start serving me albums of

David Burn's greatest hits, then they

can figure out that a 12-year-old girl

shouldn't be getting overtures from

55-year-old men. I'll bracket that

sentence, right?

very fair and very important statement

that if there were some balance of

optimization towards uh real protections

that that is important

>> but they made I think 11 billion last

year from people under the age of 18 but

you asked who's to blame we're to blame

because we haven't elected people who

are willing to hold these companies

accountable and they are sole mission is

to get reelected and in 97% of elections

whoever raises the most money gets

reelected and these companies are now

the fastest growing expense line amongst

big tech isn't AI as a percentage basis

it isn't R&D isn't capex it's lobbying

because the the greatest ROI in history

is spending money on politicians I give

money to politicians because I'm getting

more politically active and it doesn't

surprise me that they're [ __ ] the most

disappointing thing is what cheap [ __ ]

they are if I get $50,000 with a senator

he'll have dinner with me when he's in

New York or she because they have to

because the system is set up such that

whoever raises the most money gets

elected and big tech has figured that

out. So until we have the judgment to

elect people who are willing to stand up

to big tech and actually implement safe

and common sense regulation, I don't

want them to go out of business. Let our

thoroughbreds run. I actually believe

the the American model of less

regulation versus more is one of the

reasons we're much more successful than

Europe, which hasn't grown in 20 years.

But this has gotten to a point where we

seem to have a total lack of regard for

our children's well-being and the fact

that Americans hate each other and that

we're kind of eating ourselves from the

inside out. So again, we need an EPA and

an FDA or some sort of equivalent for

big tech, especially with AI. But I want

to acknowledge the point. None of this

could have happened without fossil

fuels. There is a trade-off here, right?

Pesticides are important for our food

safety, but there is an FDA. We have

decided to just let big tech run

unfettered. And I think it's been gotten

to the point where it's pretty damaging

for society. I think we've robbed kids.

My kids are in the kill zone, 15 and 18.

I think they've been robbed of a lot of

their youth. I understand this [ __ ] And

I have a son who has device addiction

who will lie, take his phone, say he

doesn't feel well, take his phone into

the bathroom for 45 minutes, and I have

to bang on the door and jokingly scream,

"Start masturbating." Because this kid

is addicted to Tik Tok. what the British

did to the Chinese in terms of getting

them addicted to opium. I think that the

Chinese via poor uh via poorest

platforms that are shareholder driven in

the GRU are addicting our youth and

we're going to raise a generation of

civic nonprofit and military leaders who

[ __ ] hate America. We are teaching

kids to hate each other, hate America,

hate every special interest group, hate

every ideology that doesn't fit their

own. And there's no grace around what it

means now fortunate are we to be

American. And I think at the center of

it is a total lack of regulation amongst

these incredibly brilliant companies.

The most technologically sophisticated,

deepest pocketed companies in the world

are trying to sequester our youth from

us and they're stealing youth. The

number of kids who see their their

friends every day has been cut in half

the last 20 years. there. Men between

the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less

time outdoors, Andrew, than prison

inmates. We are robbing youth because we

refuse we refuse to um regulate these

companies. So, do I want these companies

to go away? Do I think they're bad

people? No. But we have a system that

values wealth and shareholder value

above all. And so, tech CEOs and their

boards will make a series of incremental

decisions regardless of the the damage

to the public. and we have a set of

elected leaders that don't do their job

and that is they're there to prevent a

tragedy to the commons and it's

Democrats and Republicans. So, it comes

down to very boring [ __ ] Unless we

reform Citizens United, unless we

dejerrymander

uh the United States Congress, money is

going to win. And these companies have

more money. But no, I would push back. I

think these companies are starting to do

a lot of damage to our youth. I'm

worried my kids are going to grow up so

used to getting dopa so easily and

squeezing it so fast and this is your

field that we're flushing into society a

series of of young people who are so

ready for addiction because they're so

used to getting an automatic dopa by

just flipping out their phone really

fast. One thing that um I don't think

I've emphasized enough on this podcast

this and certainly not this but other

episodes as well is um a kind of reframe

around the dopamine and phones. I'm not

trying to correct you here but I think

it might be helpful for this discussion

and for people listening to um we need

to move our minds away from the idea

that the phone is providing these

dopamine hits because it's not.

The behavior with

social media, but phones generally is a

lot more akin to true clinical grade

obsessivecompulsive disorder.

>> Colleagues of mine that work on

obsessivempulsive disorder. I just want

to give a shout out to the the pioneer

of this field was a woman I I just

adored, Judith Rapaort. She passed away

recently. People can look up her obit.

There's a really nice one in the times.

Identified the brain structures

associated with this thing that we call

OCD, right? handashing, scratching, hair

pulling, you know, all the variations of

it. What defines obsessivecompulsive

disorder is that the engagement in the

behavior, the the compulsion doesn't

relieve the obsession. So to call

someone OCD because they need everything

perfect, but then when it's perfect,

they're like, "Okay, I can relax."

That's not OCD. OCD is when you engage

in a compulsive behavior over and over

again, and all it does is serve to

reinforce the obsession. That to me more

closely mimics what I see in terms of

phone use

>> than the idea that it's like no way this

amazing thing on the phone that comes

every once in a while. But after you've

spent a day or so on social media or on

YouTube, we are all engaging in a much

more passive slow degradation kind of

way that I'm sure impacts the dopamine

pathway. In fact, OCD is directly tied

to the dopamine pathway. So, I'm not

divorcing it from dopamine, but I think

if we started to look at our

relationship to the phone as more of an

induced obsessive compulsive disorder

>> than an addiction, I actually think

that's one of the potential ways out.

Not just con because words matter and

concepts matter, but because I think in

order to get out of that loop, you have

to see yourself from the outside and you

have to realize that you're being

hijacked. I think right now there's just

so much incentive for being on it, for

being in the bathroom, you looking at

the phone.

>> Look, I'm not addicted to my phone, but

I will tell you there are days when I

feel like I pick up that thing even

though I don't want to.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's different than addiction. I

know what addiction feels like. That's

not addiction. That's happening just

reflexively. People aren't even thinking

about it. The lack of awareness is is

just not there. So, you know, forgive me

for going on this on this tangent, but

as you're saying everything today, I'm

trying to think solutions and and I I

know Mark. I actually am am friendly

with Mark. So, I think they care. I do

think they care. I think they've created

something so big that it's very hard to

to navigate and keep up with

shareholders and all this stuff. But I

would love to see the world's

relationship to their phones and social

media change so that it is more in our

individual control, more uh benevolent,

>> but that's against their economic