Hi everyone, it's Guy Spear here and I'm

joined for an uh updated edition to my

uh podcast with uh two two people,

Ritteran and Paris. Um I'll start with

Ritteran who's the subject of this

podcast. He's the guy who in a way uh

Paris and I are going to be interviewing

and asking questions. And so I don't

know how long ago this book arrives in

my desk and uh uh that's a book written

by Retavan and I'm a big fan of anyone

who writes a book. I think it's an

enormously difficult and challenge and

you put yourself out there and so uh as

I do I glanced through the book and

wrote a handwritten note to Rita saying

something like congratulations on

writing a book and the next thing I know

Retavan's writing back to me and he's

asking permission to post my handwritten

note on LinkedIn which I was had no

problem doing and so it created this

like cycle of um like like reciprocation

and love and all these things and I

haven't even met the guy. So, so that's

Rita. We'll get back to Retavan in a

second. And we have got Paris here.

Paris is in Pune right now. He's an

intern. The last time I saw him was at

the Burkshire Hathaway meeting a long

while ago. He knocked on our door and

dropped off a resume and made a very

very good impression on Shantel who

works with me. And Shantel

enthusiastically told me I need to pay

attention to Paris. And

at first I didn't but the more I paid

attention uh the more I realized what an

amazing asset I have in par having Paris

intern. So he's in Pune just going back

to Rivan I'm so so the first time I met

Retavan was about two weeks ago and um

you know I I couldn't quite place you.

So first of all I didn't realize that

Retavan was Indian. I didn't realize

that he'd studied at the econom superior

in Paris which is a big deal. Uh he now

lives in Munich so he's kind of like but

he's actually originally Indian and so

he's like part of this global tribe of

world travelers as is Paris who was born

in Switzerland. And so with that uh I'm

going to pause because I've said a lot

of things that both Paris and Retavan

will want to respond to. I'll let you

just say hello Ravan and then I'll let

Paris say hello. So uh why don't you

correct anything that I've said wrong,

respond say whatever you like to the

audience and then we'll go to Paris.

>> Oh thanks guy. I'll just add some depth.

Uh I read I think I read Richard Wiser

happier. I read your book. I read Manish

Pabra's book about 8 years ago and it

left such a deep impression and so the

first thing that occurred to me when my

book got when I got my first author

copies was just to send it over to you

and I never thought you'd respond. So,

uh yeah, it's really great to to be on a

podcast with you.

>> Yeah. So, one of the lessons I learned

from Tony Robbins amongst other people

was you get more of what you focus on.

So if you focus on the way people are

persecuting you, you'll get more

persecution. If you focus on people who

are sending you books, you'll get more

books sent to you. And it's kind of like

a just a weird way in which the world

works. And um I think in his seminars he

talks about how in driving if you just

look in in racing track type driving or

in um um conditions where it's a

slippery road if you just look where you

want to go. Don't know how it works but

you know it's it's important to you you

move towards what you focus on. So

that's just an example of that if you

like but um I'll stop and allow Paris to

say hello to the audience. Paris, pass

your message, I think is what they say

in uh in uh um in radios along the

airwaves when you're flying airplanes.

So uh any reactions? Hello.

>> Hi. Yeah. So I'm Paris. I actually

started listening to guys podcast

perhaps six sort of seven years ago. So

being on the podcast itself is uh pretty

wild for me right now. A bit about

myself perhaps. I've been interning with

Aquamarine for the past 3 months. I uh

had first gone to the Aquamarine office

back in 2023 when I was working in

Germany and then again in 2024. I think

that put a pretty good impression on uh

Shantel and the rest of the team which

uh finally allowed me to have an

internship in 2025. So it was a long

process but yeah I'm really looking

forward to the podcast. I uh read

Ravan's book. I really enjoyed it and I

made some uh notes. I liked a lot of the

ideas over there. So, I'm really looking

forward to this conversation.

>> Yeah. And I've read about half the book

and flipped through the rest and Paris

has read the whole book which is great.

But so, um uh well,

Rita, how does somebody and I'm going to

I'm going to so questions that you've

written down unless I want to really

steal them, I'm going to let Paris ask

them. So, I'm going to switch over to a

question from you coming up in a minute,

but just give us a sense of your life

story. How did you end up studying in

Paris at a elite school? How did you end

up in Germany? Where is home? What's

your background? Where have you worked?

>> Um, yeah, I think it's easier to connect

the dots looking back. So, it's a nice

question to start out with. Um yeah, I

was born and brought up on the southeast

coast of India in a small town called

Pondicherry in a relatively cosmopolitan

environment. Uh went to an alternative

school. Um and what that basically meant

is you essentially owned your education

as a teenager. So at around 15 uh you

got to pick exactly what you wanted to

study uh with which teacher you wanted

to study. And I think uh that perfectly

suited uh my personality and that

allowed me to explore widely but also uh

dig in deep um as and when I wanted. uh

and then then came the challenge of you

know what do you do for a formal

education because after the age of 21

this uh environment would you know kind

of end and um and so I started freaking

out a bit at about uh 18 19 uh and

started looking around reaching out to

people uh speaking with people and uh

and that that helped uh get a better

feel for formal education outside of you

know alternative schools And um and then

I decided to double down on mathematics

because I felt it would keep all doors

open because I wasn't really sure

exactly what I I wasn't convinced enough

to specialize into into anything. And um

and I ended up then um doing a couple of

internships and I think I prepped a lot.

I applied a lot and uh but I think at

the end it was still luck. I mean there

was no other explanation of how I got a

full scholarship to go and study at the

economy

uh which is a very elite uh French uh

math research institute and I was kind

of parachuted into their second year so

the first year of their masters

basically and it was super hot the first

semester was brutal I almost uh failed

it completely and then I didn't take I

took two weekends in a year I think and

just uh it was just an insane in but

very rewarding grind and I essentially

had to make up for two years of prep

school that um uh most most French you

know students or all French students or

classmates had gone through um and uh

and so that that's what that you know

once I scoped the problem correctly it

was all about you know putting my head

down and working through it and uh of

course you know didn't kind of reach the

exact same level but then it allowed me

to complete the first year get into a

second year specialization

which happened to be machine learning.

uh which was you know just when the AI

kind of one of the AI hype waves of that

time was taken taking off because Deep

Mind had built a an algorithm that beat

the one of the then Go uh world

champions and Go was always considered a

game that you know computers would

struggle at because chess you know is

kind of deterministic and you work

backwards on a decision tree and all of

that and so chess you know with Casper

with uh had already been sort of worked

on before and go was extremely exciting.

That's when I graduated. Um when the

financial crisis had really sort of

scarred me as a teenager, even though it

didn't affect me, but uh just seeing the

great financial crisis happening,

following it closely was something that

fascinated me. And so I ended up uh

doing a six-month internship at the end

of my masters at Sockzen at their global

headquarters in Paris working on market

risk models uh that were data driven

that were machine learning based and um

yeah and then Brexit happened. I thought

I'd go to a quant hedge fund and retire

in London. Uh and with Brexit that plan

was deleted before I could even get

started. And uh yeah, one thing led to

another. I uh it was quite scary as an

expert actually looking for a job at

that point. Um but then I got the best

opportunity uh at an American hedge fund

trading commodities in Berlin and so I

moved to Germany and I finally got to

speak German which I grew up speak uh

speaking in India with my aunt who was

German and um and yeah and then after

trading power I moved uh to a

consultancy and worked across a bunch of

sectors. um basically always around

creating value with data and um and then

uh I wrote you know Munich is home and

uh last year I kind of decided to write

this book based on a decade or so of

operating

um and uh and you know full of the scars

and you know the battle scars and the

the ups and downs of what works what

doesn't work and what kind of focus

matters

um so that's my story

It's a it's an amazing story and um uh

just just a few sort of like follow on

from that before I cold call you Paris

is um well first of all just a general

question why why does France have the

best mathematicians in the world uh yeah

why

>> so that's uh actually historically very

interesting because you had the

industrial revolution in in England and

then Germany industrialized later and

France somehow really do has dominated

mathematics for centuries and uh and I

think to a large extent I mean uh yes I

think uh the the grande call system had

just about started towards Louis the

14th or around that time before the

French revolution um but it's really

Napoleon I think who laid the foundation

because he himself was trained in

mathematics and sort of was very much a

first principles thinker uh in in all

his battles he would really even you

know as as a as a marshall as a as a

general, a marshall and you know later

on as emperor would really take the time

to understand the battlefield you know

do intel himself on the ground work from

you know work back from these first

principles and so I think he really

appreciated sort of a rigorous um

analytical approach to thinking and uh

and sort of led to this grande call

system which created a very sort of

elitist track for for any smart and

ambitious person and then you know that

builds a nice flywheel over Okay.

>> In fact, to to the degree to which when

I sort of glanced at pages of your book

and I saw that you'd studied

mathematics, I I don't know if you

remember in our call, I just assumed

you'd studied at the um uh uh a kalpoli

technique, but I guess there are

mathematicians that are good

mathematicians that don't study the poly

technique. A kalpoli technique is is a

is kind of a naval school in France. And

basically, you know, if if somebody had

they're called

if you if you're one of those anyway,

you kind of like everybody knows to kind

of make way for the you intellectually

type of deal. For me, a column

is more literary actually, but I didn't

even it was only you've I realized it

also has a maths uh division if you

like. And I'm sure that there are plenty

of famous mathematicians who've

graduated from the economy

super superior. Can you name one or two

just for fun? Um yeah I mean I mo most

field medalist recently like uh Vendelin

Vana and Sedri Vilani and all of them

are from the economy perior in in in

Paris Ryud and I was in the economy

superior used to be called Kashon now

it's called Paris but they're basically

three that are historically founded the

one in the center of Paris the one in

the outskirts of Paris and one in Leon

and now there's a new one in Ren

>> and they all have their specializ

izations. So the one in Paris in the

center of Paris is very much

theoretical. So a lot of literature,

philosophy, etc. and and pure math. The

one I went to was um a lot more, you

know, had the humanities, but also had

the natural sciences and the and

engineering sciences. And the one in

Leon is also pretty strong in physics

and and and applied math.

>> I think that I've seen the this the guy

Cedric lecture. He's just a a very

flamboyant, very very unusual figure.

They're like sort of eccentric to the

power of eccentric. But um I won't dwell

on that. Uh what I wanted to ask you for

just briefly, I mean you grew up in

Ponticher, which I didn't even realize

it's a bit like Goa but French. Goa

being Portuguese. And that and in in

English you have a very light but you

you can tell that you you speak with a

kind of an Indian accent. When you're

speaking French or German, how do you

sound? And how long into a conversation

with somebody in France or Germany do

they say where are you from? And and

then then if you say well actually Paris

or actually Berlin or actually Munich,

they say no, where are you really from?

>> Yeah. Um so the the funny story is I I

learned French in kindergarten. was from

the age of three uh speaking it in in

school um and also at home. And a funny

story like my kindergarten teacher was

uh was a uh was Indian but of uh but of

Iraqi Jewish origin. So it was really

insanely diverse like the the kind of uh

you know the kind of environment I grew

up in. Uh it was really nice and uh so

yeah my my accent in English is is very

Indian. My accent in French was pretty

Indian until I landed in Paris. And you

I'd read a a lot of the French literary

classics. Um and so you know I have my

Alexanduma and etc under my belt my jean

and I come with that uh vocabulary the

vocabulary of those times uh with a

thick Indian accent. So that was very

weird for people initially. And one of

my friends uh a very smart guy who's

just uh completed his PhD at Poly

Technique. He's uh now starting out as

an assistant professor. And what he told

me is uh look, you need to learn

Perisian because if you want to be

respected here on the street, you you

know, forget what do you know? Uh you

know, scrub that accent off, learn

slang, you know, learn vong, which is,

you know, where you where you invert

vowels and and syllables. and uh and he

gave me a playlist of um of French rap

and he and so for me it was really

putting on French rap and doing math

proofs for a year and that's and my

accent was gone. you need to share that

playlist of French rap because I want to

get into it. And interesting enough, I

So anyway, I want I don't want to dive

into my my personal stuff, but um uh so

so so um uh if you had to choose between

living exclusively

nine months in the year in either France

or Germany

because which would you choose? Um, I

So, the unfortunate thing is I haven't

seen all of Germany, but if I had to

choose between Paris and Munich, it

would be Munich. Uh, uh,

>> oh my god, are you serious?

>> Yeah, I'm a small town guy.

>> We'll make sure that we we delete that

from all the French crowd, you know.

That's amazing. That's that's quite a

statement.

>> Explain yourself.

>> Yeah, I think Paris is just too big.

Paris, London, they're just way too big.

I'm a small town guy. I I I like this

cosmopolitan vibe which I think Munich

has or I think Zurich would have too,

but it's not too big. I think that's

nice and it's very close to nature and

uh that suits me.

>> That's that's fascinating. So Paris, I

think I know what your first question is

going to be, but you can go anywhere you

like. So uh go ahead.

>> So um I'm actually very curious. What do

you think the first question would be?

>> I'm looking at your questions. So, so,

so Paris has got like he did a cheat

sheet for me cuz he's but I I just

thought it would end up being the first

question, but feel free.

>> Uh, no, actually, um, it was the third

question that I was thinking about, but

anyway.

>> No, go ahead because your So, so just

very briefly, um, I think I strongly

believe that curiosity

is much more than just your brain

leading you astray. It's it's an it's a

it's a it's a seeking for something that

is at the root. So so so go with your

curiosity not with what what you I

expect you to ask. So you know I could

have I could have constrained you. I

don't want to constrain you. Follow your

your curiosity Paris.

>> Fair enough. Um so I read the book. I

really enjoyed reading the book. I read

a lot of the examples that were in the

book. So data impact uh is the book

byan.

Do have a look at it on Amazon. I think

I'm allowed to say that already. But uh

um when I went through the book I really

liked a lot of the examples that you had

noted. So there were a lot of different

case studies from all across the world

and it's fairly unusual. So I had a

business education and uh I saw that you

you uh took up a lot of examples from

all over the world and at the end of the

book what surprised me the most was you

said that uh you wrote the book in six

weeks which for me was like oh wow. So

you probably had a lot of these ideas

banging around in your head that were

waiting to come out in written format

somewhere or the other. So what was uh

how long was the gestation period for

the book actually and what did it take

to write the book in 6 weeks?

>> That's that's a lovely question. So um

>> yeah I I think the gestation period were

was a decade like I said at least you

know as an adult uh you know a decade of

my adult life so far. Um and the six

weeks was you know I I joined a

community of uh useful bookw writers. So

these are non-fiction book writers, you

know, who who trying to go through their

first book. And the idea was to write

this book like a recommendable product,

right? So like you want it to be useful

because someone is being nice to you by,

you know, taking 90 minutes to read your

book, you want to give them stuff that's

useful and you want to package it in a

way that's easy to read, that's fun, and

that's useful, too. And uh and this is a

methodology that Rob Fitzpatrick kind

of, you know, pioneered. And what I

realized was a lot of these writers were

struggling. They're taking over a year.

Uh typically when I spoke with people

who had written books they had taken a

year or more. Many people take several

years and for me um once I had sort of

set my mind on it and I knew uh what

kind of book I wanted it to be then I

you know I just wanted to push myself as

hard as possible you know once you've

kind of scoped your race and you're

saying you know you're running a

marathon or a half marathon whatever and

that pain is there. I think the pain,

the frustration, the drive, the

learnings, the excitement, all of you

know all that emotion is there. So you

just want to compress it and then just

let it out. And uh and so you know once

I had this SLSOG framework, right, the

sixstep framework uh I knew that I could

take all the complex ideas and package

them in a way that's um that's co that's

coherent that's cogent and you know that

that can be read easily. And so I just

uh pushed it through um you know around

Christmas

>> um which wasing I have two follow

clarifying questions just for the

audience. So um first of all you talked

about a kind of a summer mastermind

group of people who are writing their

first book non first non-fiction book.

Can you can you explain a little bit

more about that and maybe even um name

the group and how somebody else who's

listening to this who wants to write a

book maybe can tap into that group?

>> Yeah um of course. So um the author is

Rob Fitzpatrick who's famous for writing

the mom test which is you know how do

you how do you get feedback on something

you've built because when you ask people

they will always say something nice and

uh and then he wrote another book on how

to run effective workshops and then his

most recent book is how to write useful

books and and I like his approach

because it's a you know he really work

back he works backwards from anything

being value delivered right and um and

So he then built a community uh where

people who want to write a book could

join and he built a little video course

which helped speed up because um I think

writing a book is is of course the the

ideas the packaging the mental part the

feedback rounds that you want to do with

bet with beta readers. So that's all the

um let's say the the purely intellectual

part. I think the emotional part is

brutal. Like I remember I would wake up

every morning with massive imposter

syndrome telling myself you know who the

hell do I think I am? who am I to ever

write a book and have anything

meaningful to say to the world and and

so I think just being part of this group

uh joining the calls you know once or

one or two times a week let's just go to

useful books just Google useful books

Rob Fitzpatrick you'll find the

community you'll find other resources

he's done podcasts with authors uh who

speak about their journey and I think

just knowing that you know it's hard for

everyone that uh there is no shortcut

and that you know when you're trying to

do something new um the mamlian response

I think just evolutionarily is to tell

you you know is to to to get the alarm

lights going and to and to tell you

don't do this. Um, and so that that was

emotionally very hard. And so that's why

the the first, you know, uh, validation

from people I looked up to was so

important and was so uh, cathartic of

sorts. Even if it was just a sentence,

you know, uh two sentences, that's just

uh and to anyone listening, I think any,

you know, every review you write, every

feedback you give is something for the

for the author, the creator, something

that's just very nourishing because it's

almost like, you know, you've given a

part of yourself out there. Uh which is

very uncomfortable, but then, you know,

you're really happy when when people

find it useful.

>> And so I actually, Paris, I'm going to

go to you for for a question. So we'll

give Ritan a little bit of a break. And

I mean the the you know I've not I I've

read the first three or four chapters

and like you I was so so you know you

have Amazon as an example you have

Netflix and as an example in the book

and then and then you have Flipkart as

an example and then and then Retavan's

talking about Napoleon and especially

for example Napoleon which I know less

about and what Rivan said no I mean I

didn't really I just think thought of

Napoleon as a very good commander

and a bright guy from Corsica who would

have never made it through in Austria in

Russia because there was a sort of a

class system there worse than any any

cast system you have in India. But now I

want to like learn more about this whole

idea about Napoleon and and um first

principles thinking. But but Paris in

addition to those were there any other

case studies or sort of global thinker

type sort of examples of the book that

strike you struck you either in addition

to those or maybe you want to riff on

the ones I've already mentioned.

>> So the there are others but just on

Napoleon for a second it was actually

quite interesting. There was one section

of the book that talked about

communication and communicating very

clearly. So a story that stuck with me

was Napoleon would keep a old illiterate

uh soldier around him and whenever there

were to be new instructions to be issued

or uh new new and Ravan probably is

going to tell the story better than I do

but uh whenever there were orders to be

issued they would first tell it to the

old illiterate man they'd read it out

for him and then ask him to explain it

and if he was able to explain it then

the orders were a go otherwise they had

to be rewritten. because then nobody

could understand it. So I thought that

was a very useful way of looking at

communicating in which you have to

figure out if uh you can um understand

the world. But other than that there

were a couple of other businesses that I

thought were or few others that were

very interesting. So one was uh Etch UK

24. It's an insurer based out of

Germany. I didn't know about this story

despite having lived there for a couple

of years. Then uh there was an example

from uh um India which was Bajage

Finance and I know about Bajage

Finance's domination of this uh

non-banking financial lending space uh

uh in India but I didn't know about

their story very well which uh yeah I

mean it was very interesting to learn

about how they grew over the past 15

years and the last one was wise. So I've

been a very proud wise customer and uh I

didn't know their story as deeply asan

provided in data impact

>> and I'm going to go so ritan thank you

for those and I haven't I hadn't come to

those yet. Uh the question that I

thought Paris would start with but now

I'm going to ask is many people uh uh

are curious about business are smart

enough to do the kind of analysis and

thoughtfulness that you do but you

decided to write a book did you first of

all did you pick up Robert Fitzpatrick's

book and then decide to write a book or

were so

those of you who listening Rita just

shook his head So tell us about the

process by which you came to decide that

you wanted to write a book if or you can

just throw that question away and

respond to something that Paris said.

It's it's your choice really.

>> No, it's a very important question I

think. So for me if you know if if you

zoom out the book is basically a

productized

uh manner in which I can communicate

something useful to someone without any

additional investment of my time and as

I saw you know I would meet people and

we would have the same discussions and I

would end up saying the same things uh

of course without the rigor and the

structure that comes from writing a

book. So it was more free flowing

conversation and and then the

realization was you know I need to put

it I put I need to go through the pain

and the effort of kind of building it

into a product and uh to be fair you

know a book is a Gutenberg time product

right this is not uh it's not the most

uh it's not the most personalized the

most digital and the most advanced way

to communicate so I'm trying to now uh

flesh that out and provide other

resources to readers uh you know whether

it's in in the form of short email

courses or video courses or whatever. Uh

because as an author it's just

impossible to put everything into the

book because it would make it

unreadable. So there's a lot of

trade-offs around how you structure and

that is where Rob Fitzpatrick's book and

the methodology and this thinking of a

book as a product um that serves a

certain purpose. I think all of that

thinking flows in once you know why and

once you've decided uh why you want to

write a book. Uh just to be clear and I

I would imagine and if so for the

audience just you know so um I actually

got on the phone with Paras with Retavan

two weeks ago because I discovered that

he'd been in energy trading and I

realized that he could teach me

something about the energy trading

business and so we actually in a way um

met Rivan and did a vertical deep dive

into the energy trading business and

learned an awful lot about it which I'm

still uh extremely grateful for but uh

but I would imagine that that book is a

kind of an introduction to a consulting

business but and we h I have a rule

around me that that I don't want people

to sell from the stage so to speak but

now I'm but you are allowed to talk

about your business model now that I'm

asking you directly about it. So

is is the is the goal to educate sell

books and courses or is the goal to sell

consulting business? what is the product

actually other than the book?

>> So the short answer is I'm I'm figuring

it out as I'm doing it. But I think the

mission I've set myself is to really

drive datadriven value creation for

legacy businesses or businesses in

legacy sectors. Let me just uh kind of

you know unpack that a bit. So uh what

we've seen over um the last decades is

you know the move from big mainframes

that were you know in in uh that were

essentially uh in the in the domain of

companies to uh PCs etc. And that's the

digital revolution and then now you know

we're seeing more and more datadriven

algorithms. Uh let's just use the

umbrella term AI even though it's not

very rigorous but uh just so that you

know everyone kind of has a feel for

what it means. Um and uh and but what

what what's been happening is that

legacy businesses so you know

traditionally non-software businesses

looking at manufacturing industrials uh

real estate insurance etc. their margins

have been shrinking and what's happened

is in the name of being you know at the

forefront of technology it's all been

about buying tooling about you know

upgrading infrastructure etc uh

computing infrastructure you know

storage and other infrastructure and so

they've essentially increased their

costs but most companies have really not

been able to generate value and this is

something I've seen time and again and

this is something that pains me uh in in

a very deep way and uh and I wanted to

change that And uh one challenge I see

is that you know when you're trying to

sell services too hard and it's easy to

do it today you know because you just uh

slap a bit of hype on top and then you

package you know and I have the

expertise and the the CV to do that uh

but but that's why I wrote the book also

a bit to draw a line and say look uh I

will only operate and do something if I

see it creating value not do it just

because someone's paying me to do

something. And there's a very

interesting insight from from Charlie

Monger's talk at UC um he was in um at

USC business school in California 1994

and it's around this excitement around

new technologies and most people think

you know when you when you have a new

technology off the shelf and you use it

you know it'll increase efficiency and

so you will be a better business and uh

he uses an example uh from when

Burkshire Hathaway owned textile mills

and someone ran into their office and

told Warren Buffett, "We have textile

mills that are 2x more efficient." And

anyone would think, "Oh, that's amazing.

You know, we should buy them straight

away and we will be a great business."

And Warren Buffett apparently said,

"Gee, if that's true, we're going to

have to exit this business." And I think

the deep realization here is that when

you have new tools, new technology tools

come in, even if there's a true increase

in efficiency, that efficiency gets

captured by the person selling the

tooling and that efficiency gets passed

on to the consumer because anyone can

buy that tool. And so as the business,

you know, trying to improve over time,

what you end up doing is essentially

just increasing your cost and becoming a

worse business. And I call this sort of

the entropy of commoditization, right?

And so you keep buying new technology,

you keep chasing efficiency and you end

up self-destructing and you also end up

being copypaste version. So like if you

know just the word utility in the energy

sector tells you that it's copy paste

that's already been commoditized, right?

Right. And then you have someone like in

an Octopus Energy that comes around and

says, "No, we're like, you know, this is

a completely unique concept and there is

no, you know, there's absolutely no way

you could compare price compare them

against someone." And if you think about

the best companies, uh, brand

>> Sorry, I'm going to I'm going to pause

you because you you you mentioned the

name of a company and now you have to

explain it. So you you used an a um

example that is clear in your head and

nobody else's. And so everybody's

saying, "What is octopus?" And so now

you're going to explain Rod's octopus as

opposed to a normal utility.

>> Yeah,

>> I don't know myself. So

>> I do very briefly. I mean, so the idea

is, you know, the uh just energy markets

101, you know, it's a B2B market, etc.

And then the as a consumer, you have

some kind of utility that intermediates

between you and the energy market,

right? And what octopus does is that

they they incentivize you to you know

modify and match your consumption based

on the price signal on the wholesale

market. And so it essentially passes on

the opportunity of making money to you

directly. And that's very unique you

know like anyone could have done it in

theory. I think the technology was there

right for long enough. uh but it just

takes a certain level of clarity of

vision and of value you're delivering to

your customer then to frame the problem

like this to build a business around it

and to actually deliver that value and

the the case I'm trying to make in the

book is look this excitement around data

AI whatever is not about buying

technology off the shelf right and just

trying to plug it into your business or

to drive efficiency the point is sharpen

your val like what is your core value

proposition to your customer and I use

the word value because the listeners are

value you know investors. So the value

investing community is obsessed with

value but also the product tech product

development community understands the

notion of value and what I try to do is

marry these two uh plus a smattering of

military thinking and techniques. uh but

the idea is really you know take your

core value proposition and use data to

sharpen that right to counterposition to

other players in the market based on

your unique assets right your your

unfair non-digital advantages so I use

Walmart as an example right you can

either try to compete with Amazon which

doesn't have any physical stores or you

can say look we are special we are

Walmart precisely because we have stores

we don't just understand your needs

based on your online shopping behavior

which you can go and you know shop on

Walmart.com, but we also understand you

based on how you shop in our physical

stores. And so you want to take your

unique your circle of competence

basically, right? You want to double

down on that using data, right? And then

counterposition based on that to build

your moat and also sort of essentially

to, you know, to monopolize in a good

way the mind of your user of your

customer because you know there's just

so much out there today. If you want to

stand out, you need to really have a

unique, you know, even emotionally

inspiring value proposition. And data

allows you to do that. But data at the

service of this mission is what's going

to help you get there. Uh, right. Just

upgrading to, you know, getting a new uh

moving to the cloud or buying a new CRM

system or a new ERP system is not going

to do that.

>> Uh, those might be components to, you

know, to actually execute on it, right?

But unless you have that clarity of of

vision and and and and strategy, you

will, you know, it's all going to be

wasted money.

>> So, I'm going to riff on that a little

bit if I may. So, first of all, another

story that Warren Buffett's told is of

the department store business where the

one department store gets an elevator

and the other store needs to get it

right away. There's no choice. Or the

one store invests in air conditioning

and the other store needs to get invest

in air conditioning. And I'll uh segue

from that to something that I used to do

which I've more or less stopped doing

which is great that David our CFO and

you know you could you could call him

our chief chief technology officer now

um he used to joke that any any software

that um uh that was available for a

business like ours to use. I'd already

used the corporate email to try out the

free version of the software and he said

that he hasn't come across and that that

in a sense is on a very small scale in a

very small uh for a very small business

me playing with software playing with

data uh playing with signing up to cloud

services of one kind or another uh an

expression from Hebrew I like is full

full gas and neutral you know so I'm

doing all those things trying all this

trying all those things out, but but

nothing's really changing the business

at all. I mean, I'm having fun. You

actually wrote it in the book somewhere.

If you want to do it as a hobby, feel

free, but don't don't convince yourself

that you're doing something useful for

your clients and for your business that

actually I mean, this is fun to discuss

and there's nothing I don't think

there's anything that that we can't that

I'm wrong in not sharing here is that so

um Shantel comes along who's a member of

our team. So I had a Salesforce system

but she starts really using it to uh

deliver value to uh either clients,

potential clients um uh you know people

that we've been doing due diligence

with. So very briefly because I'm just

connecting dots in my head as I've read

a bit bits of your book and I'm hearing

you um uh uh Jeff Bezos this famous

expression that in in business focus on

what is not changing don't focus on what

is changing and then at the same time

something that I figured out from the

reciprocation Robert Chelini stuff and

but I really sort of scaled up you in

one of the early chapters talk about you

leverage your non-digital assets. And I

think that I was doing it at first.

Shantel picked up on it. One of the

non-digital assets that we have here is

just that we care more and that we

humans and we're willing to go the extra

mile to make person who has helped us

feel better, feel good. So, you know, I

I spend every day writing,

you know, sometimes it's half a dozen to

a dozen, sometimes it's one or two

personal notes to people and we're we're

blown away that even on an email. I'll

sometimes take a printed out email and

I'd write a personal note and they get

the and and you this whole reaction

interaction came from a personal note.

So that in a way is leveraging your

physical assets that um uh Shantel then

went and she she kind of is of a force

multiplier and scaled up. So I found

things in your book that that I kind of

reflect I think what you have been

saying right now. Um and I yeah I mean

you ran you mean that you can't just

change your um domain name toai and

everything will become better for you

right now you know

>> I could but I don't want to

>> but that but it's a very interesting

distinction and I'm going to I'm well

I'll I'll if you raise your hand Paris

you'll respond and if not Ravan will

respond but to say what actually am I

trying to deliver and then how can I use

either innate resources or data

resources that I can acquire to deliver

that rather than just playing with the

data and the data is there if you like

and you know use my Salesforce database

to deliver the thing that I define that

I want to deliver to whatever um focus

or or stakeholder group it is. It's a

slight adjustment in my thinking but

changes a lot how you go about it. I

don't know. Do you want to comment Paris

and give Rita a chance to No, he doesn't

want to comment. Do you want to respond

to that, Retavan?

>> Um, no. It's exactly what you're saying.

I think it's fun to experiment and try

out new things, but like I say, it's a

hobby and keep that a hobby. You know,

when you're trying to improve your

business, then you want to make sure

that you're sharpening the value

proposition to your the value delivered

to your customers, that's all that

matters, right? Everything else, any

kind of efficiency gain, like you know,

Charlie Mer's inside, that's all going

to get passed on. And if Warren Buffett

said, right, when someone gets an

elevator, you have to get an elevator.

That's a defensive strategy, right? You

cannot be the compounder over a decade

uh as a business if you install the

elevator. It's just a defensive tactic.

And so and so a lot of uh technological

tooling is very often just a defensive

tactic to stay up to date, but it's not

what's going to uh create the winners.

And I think that that distinction is

important. But so you know you you

clearly understand Netflix's business

quite well and you know so they had some

level of customer loyalty

uh in the um in the

mail posted mail delivery of um DVDs.

But then that transition to well the

transition to making their own content

um was clearly a kind of a I mean I

don't know the business probably as

better as well as you do but it was bet

the business kind of decision. So if it

if it succeeded it will succeed big but

you the whole business could have failed

as a result and so maybe it's

worthwhile. I mean,

how if you'd have been having a

conversation with Reed Hastings as he

contemplated this, how would your

framework fit into that? Maybe that's a

good way. Is that a good is that a good

question to ask you actually?

>> Yeah, I think we can leave perhaps the

specifics of Netflix per se and just

sort of abstract it out. You know, when

do you bet the business and how do you

bet the business? Uh especially when

there are these big pivotal

opportunities, right? because doing a 1%

2% you know fine-tuning here and there

is not going to make you compound and

win over a decade and I think the the

way I try to frame it is and this is

borrowed from you know from from

Monish's book which is think of it as an

asymmetric bet and then I add the

leveraged part leverage not in the

financial sense but in the datadriven

sense like how do you use data

specifically to get you know with a 20%

investment and 80% return um or impact

and I think um when you do these bet the

business um uh bets. You want to take a

step back and look at the entire

distribution of future, you know,

outcomes and then take the worst ones

and find some way to, you know, to to to

to put some kind of floor there. And

it's usually possible, right? And that's

how it's very difficult for me to give a

specific answer to a to this general

approach because it's very contextual,

right? So it really depends on where you

stand and you know how the it's it's

really battle by battle that you need to

fight this. uh but I think this

framework of looking at all future

scenarios kind of assigning some sort of

probability to them to get a feel for

you know what is less than more likely

and then trying to build mitigation

strategies for the worst worst cases and

then just executing with with complete

clarity intent and just hammering it

through I think is the way because you

know if you get into self-doubt like

also with the book right 6 weeks was you

know because you wake up every morning

with self-doubt and the moment you bet

your business on something you'll have

10x you know a,00 thousandx more

self-doubt and so I think thinking of it

as a leveraged asymmetric bet and that's

where data is leverage right so I think

what I try to also argue is data is not

something to be consumed data is not oil

you know it's not a commodity uh data is

leverage and so when you make these

leverage bets earlier in the industrial

paradigm you know you had opportunities

that were available in the industrial

paradigm in the digital paradigm you had

a new set of you know ways or or or

layers you could build in into such

asymmetric leverage bets and now in the

datadriven paradigm you can again build

in a whole bunch of other things and

once you understand sort of these three

paradigms then you can bet your business

even bigger even better you know and

then just keep compounding that and you

have to take those bets right if you

don't take those bets you will flatline

it's guaranteed you will you know there

is u

>> so I want to I I guess I am going to

personalize it and so one thing I heard

you say that strikes me as true even

though I don't know why it's true is

this idea that data is a commodity, data

is a new oil is not a good way to look

at data. But so so that strikes me as

true intuitively and I but I don't fully

understand it and I couldn't demonstrate

why that is the case. And then the next

thing you've said which is just

tantalizing to me but I haven't fully

understood it is you can use data as

leverage. So I know mechanical leverage

which is where the word comes from. Uh

we all know financial leverage and the

dangers of financial leverage. And now

you've introduced me to an idea called

date using data as leverage. And I'm

going to use an example that I think

gets to what you're talking about uh

which I think worked for a certain

period of time uh and and is less likely

to work now. And I I'm going to mention

somebody, John Miljavic, who is about to

have his Zurich project conference. And

I used to spend a lot of time with him.

He's got a um a community called Manual

of Ideas. And you know, he said

something like all I need is a 100,000

subscribers to my mail list mailing list

because if I have a 100,000 subscribers,

you know, I can get a thousand true fans

paying $1,000 a year from my community.

And that's a perfectly good way to live.

So you know the idea that 100 years ago

somebody could have well selling books

or having a book is a kind of a way to

do leverage. Email as a way to do

leverage but can you can you help me to

understand in more granular detail what

you mean by using data as leverage and

how it might apply to my business or any

other business?

>> Yeah. Um so yeah the I'm using the word

leverage but like you pointed out you're

right mechanical leverage is Archimedes

uh financial leverage and now data

leverage and why I use the word leverage

is because the idea is always with less

effort getting greater results right

that's that's what is common to all

three right now um when it comes to data

leverage I think I want to just

introduce two key ideas quickly to kind

of you know build this out rigorously so

uh the first idea is that I argue there

are three value creation paradigms.

There's the industrial paradigm, the

digital paradigm, the datadriven digital

paradigm. And they're characterized by,

you know, in the industrial paradigm,

replication costs are relatively

constant and personalization costs are

relatively constant, right? So, if I

make a coffee mug and I want to write

your name on it, uh or Paris's name uh

every time I have same the same cost to

produce the another cup and to

personalize it. In the digital paradigm,

you know, it gets much easier. Now

replication costs are essentially zero

right. So if I have a ebook I can you

know you can you need to create it once

and then you have essentially infinite

copies. Uh personalization costs remain

right they remain relatively constant.

If I want to write a personalized

chapter for every person right or write

a personalized section that looks at

their business all of that has uh has

has constant costs associated uh in the

datadriven digital paradigm. Now

personalization costs start going

towards zero because if I have enough

context, enough data and the right kind

of model, I can try to personalize

without any additional investment.

Right? And once these three paradigms

are are understood, now comes the

question, what does leverage mean in

this datadriven digital paradigm? And I

like to use a framework that was created

by someone in in you know in time

management. Uh the name is Elizabeth

Grace Saunders, right? So she initially

came up with this idea of you know how

do you allocate your time in a way that

you get the most leverage out of it and

then Shrea Toshi who's a thinker in tech

product sort of applied this uh to tech

product development and I like that

three bucket way of thinking leverage

neutral overhead and I sort of adapted

it to this data setting and the way I I

uh say you should think about leverage

is the following start let's start with

O first overhead so anything that has a

one-time payoff, right? Irrespective of

the investment, anything that has a

one-time payoff like a research report,

like whatever a you know some analysis,

that is that is an overhead task in the

datadriven paradigm because the next

bucket is any is something that has a

one-time investment and a relatively

constant payoff, right? So, process

improvement uh some kind of automation,

right? So, that's that is this neutral

bucket is already better than the

overhead one, right? And now the

leverage bucket is something that has an

increasing cash flow over time, right?

And and so when you think about data

leverage, you you look at these three

buckets and ask yourself the question

when I do something

uh is am I going to get a one-time

payoff, a relatively constant payoff

over time or will I get increasing uh

cash flow over time or increasing

payoffs, right? And you can choose to

monetize, not monetize those straight

away. Like Amazon for example, right,

didn't create any profits. They kept

reinvesting in the business. A lot of uh

businesses, you know, just give their

their their profit back to to their

customers. And so you don't have to

necessarily monetize it, but you need to

create that value. And I think the data

leverage bucket is really the the the

highest kind of you know investment you

can do that will compound over time.

>> A few examples from my you know sort of

building if you want to call it that

building my business. So, you know, a

very very simple example, um, if I, uh,

collect somebody's birthday, that's a

one-time collection cost, but I can then

send them a birthday card once a year

and deliver a little bit of a joy in a

mailed birthday card once a year. But,

but that is a a one time that is a there

is a certain cost to writing out the

birthday card and putting it in the

mail. But the most expensive thing is

actually collecting that um that mailing

address and the birthday card. So that

would be an example. Writing a book

obviously is is clearly well it depends

on what book it is. Some some books

depreciate in value over time because

they don't get read very much and if

you're lucky you've created a book that

but but it h at least has the

opportunity to create a kind of like

recurrent revenue or recurrent interest

or recurrent something. And so you

you're thinking what what comes up for

me is um the tale to the if I write a re

I mean

um if I write a research report and it's

just internal for the business as you

said it's an over overhead but maybe I I

can start thinking of the research

report that I or somebody internally

writes is first of all overhead and

perhaps contributing to investment

decision but then we can think of with

maybe not zero cost but very low cost

repurposing it for some other some other

content distribution either in a

newsletter or to personal delivery of

the research report and maybe I I you

know we could we could discuss for hours

my last sort of like technical question

if you like um and c can you help me to

understand

I know that it's something that is very

clear for the um television and movie

business content business this concept

of windows and uh you know you want to

kind of you want to capture along the

demand curve. You want to capture as

much of the the the consumer surplus for

yourself and so you have these release

windows and you don't want to release

the content in a in a way too soon to

the people who don't pay for it. You

want to release it last. So a a movie

the reruns of the movies which have sold

uh to be or and see television channels

and are and are make revenue via

advertising or the last place where you

distribute the first place is first

release cinema and now that's changed

slightly because sometimes a movie will

be released in Netflix first and artists

are playing with that as well but I

think that that's true and I I guess I'm

thinking of the business in a way that

I'm in which is investment management in

investment research that some people

give their content away for free and

that's wrong and some people uh put

build such a high wall around their

content that nobody gets to see it but I

don't know so so I I've kind of given

you a potted analysis from my

perspective can you help me to refine

and understand better what I've just

talked about

>> no I mean I think the important thing

you said was the same thing could end up

in any of these buckets depending on how

you like you know how it fits the bigger

picture right and what is your notion of

the value it's supposed to deliver and

and that's true right so there's nothing

that explicitly always falls in one

bucket or the other you can move it

across the buckets if you if you if you

if you choose to um and I think on you

know what what do you give for free and

what do you pay well and this is why I

use the word leverage in the data

context because if you look at most

demand you will have some sort of power

law right you would you don't have

uniform demand it's very rare I never

seen in the real world you know like a

uniform demand for anything right so and

and it's not gausian either right so you

always have some kind of you know 80/20

type of relationship some kind of parto

some kind of power law and that's

leverage again right because you have

20% you know driving 80% of your revenue

or your profits or whatever and that

allows you then to kind of produce the

payw wall stuff for that for that 20%

but to the to the rest you can you can

provide free resources so this is how I

also try to think when I do something

because yes you know you have to

monetize in some way to continue to grow

to create more value uh but you also uh

want to uh offer value for free

especially uh what is called you know

productled uh growth in in in software

businesses uh but it's a bit like your

free gym membership for a week right or

or you know the whole bunch like try

before you buy is something I think

that's that's uh almost mandatory today

and you want to create a you know

portfolio offering that allows people to

try out, get value, and then sort of

climb up this this pyramid of value,

right? Over time,

>> you know, u I I find myself thinking of

So, there's a big um switch in my little

business. So, I was a classic one and 20

guy, but I was going to lunch with Mish

Pabry and Warren Buffett and I didn't

want to be a one guy. So I introduced

this zero management fee share class and

the I what struck me is when you said

demand follows a power law and I think

that we we have a hard enough time

thinking of just growth polomial growth

is already too hard for a mind to

understand. We think of terms of linear

equations, but power law is a whole

different thing that if you have a hard

time getting your mind around something

like, you know, y= x^2 something

something something, you'll have a even

harder time following something where y

equals a number raised to the power x.

And um I think of Costco and Amazon. I

think of my use of Kindle and now I

don't know how many books on Kindle I've

bought but now the the highlights that

I've put into my Kindle. I don't know

how Amazon's going to monetize it or how

but but it's there's I I guess what I'm

trying to say is uh and this comes from

the Santa Fe Institute more is

different. So you can't even imagine

what will happen when you continue to

sort of like drive demand through a

power law type framework if you like. We

could go on for hours on this. Tell me

this, uh, because we're beyond an hour

already. Um, do you do consulting? So,

you've written a book, you clearly do

podcasts,

uh, you creating course on courses

online, but if somebody says, I want

this guy Ravan to look at my specific

situation, do you do you do you do work

like that? which of course in a way is

not scalable unless you get to reuse the

content but

>> no but I' I'd love to do that kind of

work but I think I'm like you said you

know this one and 20 dilemma that you

had um and you I feel I'm at a stage in

life where I'm having a similar churning

like I could just go out there and you

know and monetize my you know monetize

my expertise uh you know based on hours

worked or whatever as a consultant and I

have done that uh you know in the past

but I want my compensation to be linked

to value delivered and if someone aligns

with that I'd love to work with them

because the kind of opportunities I lay

out in the book the the way I I like to

think and solve problems I think

requires this kind of alignment and I

want to move away from this one and 20

type of thing I mean of course I you

know I need like some kind of retainer

or some way you know just to cover the

mortgage right I'm not not don't not

don't not want to be uh naive and or or

whatever site so I think that that

component is there. I'm trying to get

that component slowly over time covered

through content and then ideally you

know I I want to be like I just want to

get compensated for value delivered and

I you know and then and I think that

achieves amazing alignment which as a

typical uh professional services you

know consulting vendor kind of person

you don't have and I think this this

gives this gives real meaning and this

allows you to compound value creation

over years and not think in terms of oh

this year's budget we have you know we

have 50,000 left let's just do something

right uh and this this is just wasteful

like I don't want to be stationary you

know you have these stories of of uh of

companies or government officers going

and buying stationary because budget is

left you know you get 5,000 pens or

something and I don't what I what I find

really sad and wasteful is if if if data

and algorithms are are bought like

stationary

>> I mean just again I so what I'm going to

do because uh time is short is I'm going

to riff on that a little bit then I'm

going to get par Paris an opportunity to

either both riff and maybe ask one or

two questions and then I'll uh give you

uh Ravan a final set of comments before

we close this down and um now I need to

reconnect to the thought that I wanted

to riff on after having done some

housekeeping and um it is going to come

back to me. Yes. So if I was in the So I

I I think that something that motivates

me is and and it's it's not got a dollar

value, but I so I'm in a place in my

life where part of what I want to be

able to do in 20 years time is to tell

great stories about how how I genuinely

made a difference or even better enable

other people to tell great stories about

how I genuinely made a difference. And

so for example this this call you know

maybe maybe in 10 years time your life

has changed as a result of this call and

that I will chalk up that up as a win

for me. That would be a beautiful thing

if that were to happen. I'll keep trying

that that's that's upside measured in

terms of stories told rather than any

kind of monetary result. And I think

that if I was I mean I think that you

have a unique uh a special knowledge set

that can be sold on a consulting basis

on a small scale as well as being taught

to mass audiences like this will be or

on online courses. But I think that if I

had bespoke is the word I if I had a

company coming to me in your shoes and

saying we want you to consult to us

one-on-one bespoke my answer would be

that's fine and and you know I I want to

I need to be rewarded for my time at

some basic level and but part of the

your commitment to me is I'm allowed to

tell the story of what happened and

obviously I'm not going to go and reveal

data that you don't want revealed to

your competitors or anything like that

but basically ically if it's a success,

which I would only take the project if I

think there's a high chance of success,

I want to be able to tell the story of

what happened. And then me as your um

future publisher, editor, book agent

will want the next book to be about how

you are actually had agency in all the

stories that you told. So the stories

that you're telling are beautiful

stories in this book and maybe later in

the book it comes up. But but but the

next book that you write will be how you

had agency in the book. Just just some

ideas there. And uh and I wouldn't work

for somebody who didn't who said under

no circumstances can you ever talk about

my work. I have a friend who shall

remain nameless who worked for

household name pop artist um uh on a a

show of hers in Vegas. Uh he he it would

have been transformative for him. And 3

days before the show was to start, this

this person has an enormous ego. The

household name, you'd know who she is.

And offline, I can tell you, I just

can't tell tell it in public. 3 days

beforehand, she cancels the project,

which he can do because she's that kind

of person. And for you know, she she had

a slight cold or something. And the his

contract said that he could not talk

about it. And so he couldn't talk about

it. And the that that part of the music

industry is such that if you do talk

about it, even though if it's a

household name, your name is trash

anyway because confidentiality is

everything. And and it's just very

frustrating for him because that would

have been a breakthrough project for

him. That would have branded him as

somebody who worked on XYZ, you know,

think of think of the police, think of

Queen, think of, you know, um the uh the

the lead singer for Queen, something

like that. So I just want that. But

anyway, that's me. Uh, but I and I heard

loud and clear if anybody's listening to

this, Ritavan is open to consulting

contracts. But Paris, last thoughts from

you before and going back to Ritan.

>> Um,

so the book itself I think was great.

the conversation has been even better

because the two linking both of them

together has clarified a lot of the

questions that I really just had while

reading the book. Uh the case studies

along with the discussion now I think I

understand the ideas uh a lot better. So

I guess with the courses, the email list

and all of uh the other things to go

together, it probably would already

start producing and providing a lot of

value to people even if not in business

just in personal life as well. There are

a lot of ideas that can be implemented

in one's own's uh life through the book.

>> And from my from my part, thank you

Paris. I'll be reading the second half

of the book and hoping that I didn't

reveal my stupidity too much during the

course of this podcast. But uh Retavan,

it's a pleasure. First of all, thank you

very much for the uh insight and

knowledge that you gave to us on uh the

energy trading industry. That was super

valuable. I feel like you're a kindred

spirit as being somebody who's, you

know, third culture kid living living

from one culture in another culture in

another culture and I feel very similar

and and you know my children when they

finally having been in various different

kinds of school went to Zurich

International School in a way they

finally came home because they realized

that they were just another version of

you know kid you know an Afghan kid who

had a German father and a Angolan mother

and you know all sorts of crazy things

And and in a way, you know, I guess uh

um a former UK prime minister called us

as cit citizens of everywhere and

nowhere. And you know, we accuse we all

three of us would be accused in a way of

being by kind of certain Trump

uh direction politicians as being

globalists. But I I I would say that I

think that there's an aspect to all

three of us which is very very local. we

care very very much to be good citizens

of the place that we're in and abide by

the values of the place that we're in

and you know pay taxes and could be a

contributor to society. So my my word to

all you um uh what Nigel Farage, Donald

Trump, all of those people is that not

all globalists are bad, some are good,

something like that. But um Retavan uh

if somebody wants to follow you, get in

touch, how do you do that? Is the book

available on Amazon? Uh give us your how

do if somebody wants to engage further,

how do they do that?

>> I'm only on LinkedIn and pretty active

there. So, I'd love to connect on

LinkedIn and uh otherwise on um

ratwan.com.

Uh I always try to have a whole bunch

of, you know, podcasts and free material

um that allows you to sort of

familiarize yourself. And uh yeah, write

to me on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from

you. If you read the book and like it,

you know, write a review. I think any

kind of feedback is always uh you know,

makes me really happy.

>> Thank you, Rita. Thank you, Paris. see

you again and we look forward to meeting

you in person at the right moment.

>> Thank you guy.