I have inside information on Jeffrey

Epstein and why the US government is

reluctant to be more transparent. And I

know this because when I was working in

government meetings were not how shall

we tell the public, but what shall we

tell the public? So often the best we

can get in our skepticism is to know

that we are not being told the truth.

>> I think people need to know the truth.

>> So put on your seat belt. I'm going to

tell you everything and all senior

people in the US government know

everything that you and I have discussed

here today. So you've been behind the

scenes with some of the most successful,

richest, most powerful people on planet

Earth. But what is it you do, Gavin?

>> So I do protective coverage. You know,

any of the ways that wealthy or

prominent people might be targeted. For

example, the Saudi Arabian government

obtained a system which can get into

your phone used it on Jeff Bezos. So our

work was to figure out how it happened.

>> Why would a government want to hack the

founder of Amazon's phone? So, I'll tell

you in a second, but we're all not as

careful as we could be in terms of what

we say, what we text, and there is

absolutely no protection viable for the

confidentiality of your phone. Do you

have any skepticism about that?

>> I just have a lot of ignorance to how

this whole world works.

>> Lucky you. But all power centers in

human history lie. There are some

examples of this where we'll start

telling the truth about something, but

years later, things like cancer causing

asbestous and baby powder, 100,000

people dying from heart attacks from

opioids. and we'll see it with mass

vaccination.

>> So, what advice would you give about how

to navigate in the world we're living in

today to avoid risk threat?

>> I've got some core truths. So, first of

all,

guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.

We're approaching a significant

subscriber milestone on this show, and

roughly 69% of you that listen and love

this show haven't yet subscribed for

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time for you to do us a favor, if we've

ever done anything for you, giving you

value in any way, it is simply hitting

that subscribe button. And it means so

much to myself, but also to my team

because when we hit these milestones, we

go away as a team and celebrate. And

it's the thing, the simple, free, easy

thing you can do to help make this show

a little bit better every single week.

So, that's a favor I would ask you. And

um if you do hit the subscribe button, I

won't let you down. And we'll continue

to find small ways to make this whole

production better. Thank you so much for

being part of this journey. Means the

world. And uh yeah, let's do this.

>> Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that

mutual friend actually sent me a voice

note late last night. Here is what the

voice note says.

>> I'm calling it this crazy hours. I found

out that you're interviewing a dear

friend of mine, Gavin Debecker, I think

in 2 days. I think on the 13th. He is an

extraordinary human being, extraordinary

soul. He comes from a a very tough

background. But what he's done to move

from that background to becoming

probably the single greatest security

expert in the world. He designed the

systems that are used to protect the

Supreme Court. I've met him decades ago

when there was a threat happening to a

former girlfriend of mine and then I was

getting threatening letters and he

deciphered the letters in micros

secondsonds, got the FBI involved and

put a stop to it all. It was

extraordinary what he did.

Wow.

>> That was Tony Robbins for anyone that

didn't recognize

>> I recognize

>> the voice. Yeah, it'd be crazy if

someone didn't.

>> But it got me incredibly incredibly

curious because he said lots of things

there that I found fascinating.

>> Um, the first one I'm going to start

with is he described you helping him

with a personal situation in his life.

And I guess this beggets the question,

>> what is it you do for people like Tony

Robbins? What is it you do for famous

people, for world leaders? What is it

you do, Gavin? The main function of my

company is anti-assination.

So we develop and deploy anti-assination

strategies. Under that under

assassination which you can consider the

worst possible outcome um are lesser

outcomes like other kinds of crimes uh

destruction of of reputation uh threats

that are designed to cause anxiety and

fear. We have a division that does

assessment of threats and management of

threats. We have a division that does

actual protective coverage. That's the

biggest division, meaning actual

physical protectors, fit, young, capable

people, not uh retired ex- cops who are

overweight and on their second career,

but uh you know, people who are who are

really trained for this specific field,

armored vehicles, modifications to

homes, basically everything that fits

into the category of preventing uh uh or

disrupting uh uh efforts to do tissue

damage. So, we're in the business of

preventing tissue damage. And who are

some of the names that you do this for

and have done this for over the years?

>> All of the names that I do it for are uh

never spoken by me. So, uh I don't say

who clients are and I don't say who they

aren't because if I say to you so and so

isn't a client, uh that is information

that might reveal that somebody else is

or something you heard is true or not

true. The way I can describe it to you

though is to say that it's if you took

the 20 people you would assume uh fit

into this category or the 50 um most of

them are clients.

>> I mean according to the internet you

sort of reference certain things before

because these people have spoken or you

know you've been seen in photos.

>> That's right. If a client identifies me

or it happens because I testify in a

court case or something that's a

different animal. It just doesn't come

from I view myself as sort of like a a

psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be

the one revealing it.

>> And some of those names that have been

revealed by others are Jeff Bezos,

Elizabeth Taylor, Sher Madonna, Barbara

Stysand, and many, many, many more. From

government officials to royalty, etc.,

etc. What was Tony referring to when he

said that you helped him with a

situation with his girlfriend, a threat,

found out that it wasn't who people

thought they were,

>> right? Surely, he was referring to a

case I'll never reveal, and I won't even

acknowledge he's a client.

>> You won't even say he's a client.

>> I won't say it. if you if you have it

from some other source.

>> Tony said it.

>> I I understand your interrogation is

makes all the sense in the world, but I

just don't say it. I don't talk about

clients. There's a bunch of reasons, but

most of all, just absolute

confidentiality. I know it's weird.

Apologies.

>> But I heard you talk about the Jeff

Bezos situation.

>> Uh you heard me talk about uh uh cyber

security and and the vulnerability of

phones. Uh, and the Bezos situation is a

little bit different in that I was

involved very publicly in it, but

clearly with permission of my client and

and organized with my client. Same thing

as when I testify in a court case,

there's no secrecy about it. I'm doing

it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then

do it everywhere. And and so in that

case where you did have Jeff's

permission, the the background context

was there was a newspaper that was going

to publish that he was having an affair

with I think his current wife who wasn't

his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez,

and you were called upon in that

scenario to figure out what was going on

and you were able to solve that.

>> Yes.

>> What are you able to talk about there?

>> Well, I'll think back to what's already

been what's already been public. Uh and

it won't be from me. It won't be

anything about the client, but it will

be about the Saudi Arabian government,

which at that time had just obtained a u

a system called Pegasus 3, which can get

into your phone remotely. It doesn't

require a click of any kind, meaning you

don't have to acknowledge anything. It

can get in. It's called a no click

exploit. And it could do everything in

your phone from 7,000 miles away that

you could do holding the phone in your

hand. even if it was off, could turn on

the camera, could turn on the

microphone. It exists. It's a very real

thing made by the Israelis. And the

Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And

he used it on a group of dissident

around the world. He also used it on

Jeff Bezos. According to the United

Nations, according to lots of things

that have been public, our work was to a

figure it out, figure out how it

happened. In those days, I didn't know

what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what

this system was. But the instrumental or

perhaps useful thing for you and your

audience to know is that there is

absolutely no protection viable for the

confidentiality of your phone if a

government wants you. And the reason I

say there's no stopping it is that even

when Apple puts out a new solution uh

which they do an update uh that you know

breaks some particular exploit thousands

of people around the world immediately

start working on the next exploit. So if

I said to you here's a phone and we've

modified it and it's great Mr. President

here you can use this phone for your

confidential conversations. Uh in a

month it won't work anymore. And so I

I'm able to tell clients and friends and

now you and your audience there are a

lot of things being offered for sale

that you know supposedly protect the

confidentiality of your phone calls for

example or your texts. Nothing will work

reliably. There is no solution to that

problem that is reliable.

>> Nothing.

>> Yeah. There is there devices sold.

There's all variety of things. But the

reality is that even if something

worked, even if I said to you, here's

this cool new such and such phone that

will protect you, it'll only protect you

for a while because there's a constant

effort to improve the exploits. And also

I have to say people are somewhat

reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put

myself on the list uh and I'll put you

on the list without even knowing you.

We're all not as careful as we could be

in terms of what we say, what we text.

And uh I have a dear friend and client

who every text and every email that he

sends also goes to his executive

assistant and everybody knows it. And

what happens is it controls and

influences his behavior. So when you

send me that off-color joke that I

wouldn't want to see on television, he

responds differently. He doesn't say,

"Oh, that's great." And add another

topping line on top of it. He because he

knows that his assistant in the other

room is seeing that. And so the best we

can all do is be be watchful what we say

and have no pretense of of privacy or

confidentiality because it simply does

not exist. Period. The US government got

into the phones of all of our allies,

the prime ministers, chancellor of West

Germany, uh prime minister of England,

president of France. This is a game

that's going on all the time and uh and

privacy is just not part of the new

world. Why would a government want to

hack the founder of Amazon's phone?

>> Well, the again from what's been public,

the founder of Amazon was also the owner

of the Washington Post. And the Saudis

had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist

for the Washington Post. And the

Washington Post then started putting out

an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good

for the Saudis. And then they really

went after the I'll call him the head of

state. He's the prince but but his

father was alive and was actually the

head of state but they really went after

NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of

adversary in that regard. Additionally,

the Saudi sovereign fund developed an

Amazon competitor called something like

N or something like that and so they

were concerned about that and they were

also doing deals with Amazon and so they

could get economic advantage by seeing

what the various executives are texting

to each other. So there was a lot of a

lot of moving parts to that. So all

these things I've just shared with you

were highstakes matters going on around

the time that Kosoji was killed and that

the western countries of the world were

objecting to this assassination team of

his going around and and killing people

and and getting into their phones.

>> In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly

accused the US tabloid the National

Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and

extort him by threatening to publish

intimate photos including what he

described as a nude below the belt

selfie of him and his then partner

Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post

saying AMI emailed his lawyer and

security adviser Gavin Debeca's council

threatening to publish personal photos

and texts unless he and his team

publicly stated that the tabloid's

coverage of him was not politically

motivated.

>> Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the

Inquirer and they negotiated with me and

my lawyer over this that I was to go

public and say two things. I was to say

it was not politically motivated and it

was not influenced by outside actors

i.e. the Saudis and that there was no

hacking involved. My question was, why

the hell do you want me to say those two

things specifically? And my I already

knew the answer, of course, because

there was outside influence and there

was hacking. Their request for me was so

strange that we didn't go along with it.

Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post

talking about it publicly and saying,

"Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this,

then where is a regular person?" And

ultimately those pictures were never

published.

>> Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on

whether those pictures exist because

they were doing a fascinating thing by

the way. They were it's sort of like

selling you land in in Florida that's

marsh land and doesn't exist. They were

doing an extortion on a thing they

didn't even have. All right. So it's

kind of a double crime. It's an

extortion and fraud.

>> It's interesting. You know, we we start

talking here about digital coms and that

type of security with everything that's

going on at this exact moment in time

with all these Epstein files and there's

a big conversation, you know, because

now we can see 3,000 3 million documents

and many of them are emails that people

have sent at different times. Some of

the most famous people in the world have

sent emails to Epstein and now those are

all out there in the public to see. I

wondered what your take was on all of

this stuff. You must be watching this

stuff from like through the lens that

you've built your career and uh you must

have an interesting opinion.

>> Some of it I I don't talk about because

I have a fair amount of inside

information and I'm just watchful about

not getting near the line.

>> What do you mean by inside information?

I mean information that that I might

have gotten from uh I'm characterizing

it carefully that I might have gotten

from government agencies that are

clients or that I might have gotten

because uh clients were uh were

implicated like I learned today for

example this morning on the way over

here that I'm in the Epstein files.

>> Oh, really?

>> And here's the way I'm in there is that

someone sent Epstein an article that I

wrote called Fooling Ourselves into war.

And so uh somebody sent that uh article

which is an article I really like by the

way uh published in in Huffington Post

at the time and um they sent that to

Epstein. So that's an example of being

in the Epstein files and yet obviously

never having met Epstein. But I have a

few clients who and friends who the

Epstein group made approaches on and

failed. Meaning they tried to get them

and failed. I'll give you one story

without naming the person, of course. He

goes to meet with Epstein in New York to

ask for money for a charity. And and

Epste is perceived as this big

billionaire, which he was not, by the

way. I'll tell you in a second. And

Epste is in a robe. And they're across

the desk just like you and I are. And

Epstein says, "Hey, um, they're

finishing the meeting." He says, "Hey,

I'm going to get a massage." Hence my

robe. Do you want to get a massage? And

through the hallway, my friend can see a

massage table and a room and a very cute

girl who's the massage therapist, right?

Dressed like a massage therapist. And so

he happened to say no. In fact,

interestingly, he happens to not like

massage, which is itself, you know, a

lot of people would say yes and might

even think it would improve my

relationship with this guy, Jeffrey

Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy

that I'm trying to get money from my

charity. Um, had that happened,

what a different world for that person.

What a different life. Because in that

room is cameras and then eventually

audio. It didn't start off with audio,

but audio was added later. And then

you're getting a hand job, if I'm

allowed to say hand job, from somebody

who you don't even think about their

age, but turns out to be 17, and you are

in a world of trouble for the rest of

your life. And that's a big piece of

what was going on with Epstein with

cameras in that apartment in New York

and eventually audio cameras and

eventually audio at the island. My take

on it uh and certainly my public take is

that there was a profound uh uh

blackmail operation going on to the

benefit of probably more than one

government, but at least one government.

And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a

billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire.

For one thing, the his earning path is

highly suspect. I'll first tell you what

he was. What he was is a construct. He's

a created construct. Money, wealth,

private jet, private island, fun, not

married, young girls, lots of things.

So, he was a construct. the money uh

$500 million of money came from Les

Wexner who's a wealthy guy who uh owns

or owned I don't know what he's doing

now uh Victoria's Secret notator to the

state of Israel and $500 million was

transferred to Epstein along with power

of attorney to use it and invest it in

the ways he saw fit. Quite an unusual uh

you know I'm mildly wealthy but I'm not

sending you $500 million. I'll tell you

that the idea that you're that you're

doing this is itself extraordinary, but

it was probably the funding mechanism

for this construct. While it's a real

name, uh, Jeffrey Epstein and he has a

real birth certificate and grew up in a

real way, the picture that is presented

to the world is not authentic. It is not

accurate to who he was. And the more you

dig into this story, which of course

people are doing so much now because of

these uh 3 million uh documents so far

and videos by the way and photographs,

there's a lot of material there. The uh

it's very interesting to people right

now and and and more to be learned. But

you know what was actually going on? Why

in the world would anybody say, "Well,

there are national security implications

to some of this content. That's why some

things are redacted." What would that

be? Why would the prosecutor who

prosecuted him in Florida

and provided one of the most unusual

plea bargain deals in world history and

certainly unique in American history

which is imagine I've got you I'm a US

attorney I've got you on some crime and

you say okay I'm going to plead guilty

I'm going to serve my time but please

let my accountant go and please don't

prosecute my wife because all she did

was deliver the stuff and she didn't

wasn't involved in anything and so Those

are called unindicted co-conspirators.

So I make a deal with you and I say,

"Okay, you go to jail for the 8 months

and we will leave the unindicted

co-conspirators unindicted. We won't

prosecute your wife, your son, your your

accountant or what have you." That's a

very normal process. It's it's a it's a

bargaining process, basically. However,

in the Epstein case, the US attorney

gave him a deal that said uh that we

would not prosecute unnamed

co-conspirators.

Holy Who's that? Who's unnamed

co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators

could be 50 people. It could be 75

people. The guy who gave that sweetheart

deal became the secretary of labor. He

was at that time the US attorney for for

Florida. He was asked, "Why did you give

that sweetheart deal?" Because the deal

is ridiculous. Unnamed co-conspirators

will be exempt from prosecution. And and

he said, "I was told he belonged to

intelligence." and then he had to resign

because of this. There was a lot going

on with with with Epstein uh the person

who I mean there's so much of this but

the person who uh sort of brought

Epstein into the world of power and got

him his job at I think Morgan Stanley I

could have that wrong but one of those

big finance companies was William Bar's

father. William Bar was the attorney

general who was the US attorney general

when Epstein was killed or died in

prison depending on your choice of of

reality. So there's so much there but I

won't be the first guest Steven that

you've had uh that says that um it was

an intelligence operation. Why the US

government is reluctant to be more uh

transparent? Some of it is national

security. Some of it is, let's imagine

an ally of ours, uh, is involved in in

that operation. So, there's a reluctance

and there's a question. It's a little

bit like UFOs. Could the public handle

it is the question that's always asked

in these cases. Meaning, could the

public handle it if, for example, the UK

was running an intelligence operation

inside the United States to control

senators and congressmen and powerful

executives and powerful figures and

scientists? Could we handle it? Could

the US public handle it? My take

personally, absolutely. Yes.

>> So, you believe that he was an

intelligence asset and it sounds like

you believe he was an intelligence asset

potentially by a US ally?

>> Yes.

>> So, who is that ally?

>> Israel.

>> You believe that Epstein was an Israel

>> intelligence asset?

>> Yes. Yes, I do. And uh and Glain

Maxwell, just for additional background,

but everybody can find it. Her father

was an Israeli intelligent asset who was

so revered. His funeral ceremony was

held in Israel, was attended by the

prime minister, by I think the last four

or five, by every living head of Mossad

attended. And there were words used in

eulogies like he did things for Israel

that uh the world will never know about.

There's a a lot of good connection there

and a lot of good connective tissue. Um,

some of which I've shared with you

because it's public and some of which

I'm not sharing, but that is uh that is

indeed what I believe. Yes. And

>> not just me, by the way. I you might

already be there. And you've certainly

had another guest sit here and and uh

former CIA guy uh Kira Cow, how do you

say his last name?

>> Yeah.

>> Uh am I close to

>> You're close. It's closer than I would

get.

>> Okay, good. And he was point blank in

saying Israel. So there's no there's no

direct evidence. But what people are

essentially doing is putting the pieces

together to make a picture.

>> There is direct evidence. There's just

not direct evidence I'm sharing at this

moment. But there's the there's plenty

of evidence that that has been public

already, some of which I've shared. I

mean, I could I could do it for 40

minutes, but everybody can just go to

chat GPT. And you know, if you ask Chad

GPT, make the best case for this. A good

thing for viewers to remember. Make the

best case for dot dot dot whatever it

is. If you ask

the first answer you get if you ask a

straight question will always be the

official narrative.

>> I've done exactly that because you said

it. I I asked Chi make the best case for

Epstein being an Israel spy. Here is

what it said. The case that Jeffrey

Epste functioned as an Israeli

intelligence asset rest on a pattern

alignment rather than direct proof. He

ran a sexual sexual compromise operation

resembling known intelligence compromat

tradecraft.

>> Compromat. Yeah, like it's a Russian

word that means we compromise you.

>> Had wealth and access far beyond his

formal career and operated with unusual

legal protection for years. His close

partnership with Gla Maxwell, whose

father had documented intelligence ties

fuel suspicion, as does reporting by

journalists who say Epstein's activities

were discussed in intelligence adjacent

circles. The cameras and the microphones

hidden in his apartment and his home.

How do we know they were there and why?

Well, how I know they were there is a

little bit different from how everybody

knows they were there. And I don't know

enough about the entire history of the

FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny

part of the FBI piece. When they went to

execute a search warrant at that

apartment after his more recent arrest,

they found and even photographed a bunch

of CDROMs or discs of some kind that

were labeled, but they didn't take them.

They said, "We'll get a warrant and

we'll be back for those." and they came

back after a mere

six days and it was all gone. So where

it is, I don't know. Does the US

government have it? Does somebody else

have it? I just don't know the answer.

But I know from very direct information

regarding the island and the apartment.

I don't know about New Mexico. I just

don't happen to know. Another house that

he owned that there were cameras and

then eventually audio. Audio was added.

Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon

me. testimony from girls who said girls

who worked there and visited there a lot

who said that in a small room near to

the right of the front door was a whole

thing of videos where the recording was

done.

>> And can you explain to me why recording

videos and audio of people getting those

kinds of uh doing those kinds of things

would be a useful asset for this foreign

adversary to have.

>> Sure. Uh, you know, blackmail is not

always done by calling you up and

saying, um, you know, hey, Stephen, I'm

going to hurt you in the following way

if you don't do A, B, or C. The other

version is is far better, which there's

is even alluded to in some of the now

released material, which is he calls and

he says, "Stephen, I've got terrible

news. Do you remember you had that

massage from Cindy? You know that girl,

Cindy?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember."

Well, she recorded something. She had

something in her bag. She made a

recording. And I got worse news.

Stephen, the girl's 16 and a half. And

now, by the way, you are stomach drops,

diarrhea. You are in a world of stress

right now just hearing that. And he,

instead of being your blackmailer,

becomes your rescuer. He says, "I can

handle it. I can handle it. I can handle

it. She's got the recordings. I don't

know where they are, but I can handle

it. I can handle it. I can handle it.

Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry."

And he owns you now. forever. If you

were involved in a naked experience with

someone who's underage, and there's a

video of it and audio of it as well, you

will do anything that you are asked to

do that is within reason. Very few

people would have the character and the

stamina to do what you describe Bezos

doing, which is that he wrote a public

letter saying, "A very unusual thing

happened to me the other day. I'm being

blackmailed by the National Enquirer."

and here's what they said. That's very,

very rare. And so, you know, a senator,

a congressman, he owned a lot of people.

Do you have any skepticism about that?

>> I

don't have skepticism. I just have a lot

of ignorance to how this whole world

works.

>> Lucky you.

>> And I just have a lot of ignorance to

like, you know, because you hear about

these things in almost like movies. And

uh it appears that we're all kind of

witnessing

something we might have regulated just

to the movies happened before our eyes.

And even when you know I saw some of the

emails coming up on my feed of things

that Epstein had emailed people, he

seemed to be continually inviting people

to hang out with him in a way that is

quite atypical. Now maybe I'm just an

introvert, but I'm not. He he was like

aggressive in his coms to people saying,

"Come and hang out with me. I'm doing

this thing at this dinner party. Come to

my island. Are you in the area?" and he

was succeeding in getting a lot of

people to come and visit his his homes

and his island. And yeah, it's uh

>> by the way, Stephen, in the circumstance

you are in today, you might well have

heard from from Jeffrey Epstein. You

might well have had somebody who knows

you who says, "Hey, there's this guy in

New York. Loves your show. Uh just

terrific." And and all of a sudden,

you're getting that invitation. And

you're getting that invitation through

someone you know and kind of like

>> like Joe Rogan did.

>> I don't know. But like so many people.

Well, Joe Rogan said it.

>> Oh, if he's been public about it, I'm

just not going to be the one to say it,

but I I got it.

>> Oh, okay. Yeah. Joe Rogan publicly la

last week said that, and it's in the

files, that a former guest, I think it

was Lawrence Krauss of his show, invited

him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein.

And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein

was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe

Rogan in. Joe Rogan said like absolutely

abs well this what Joe Rogan's said

absolutely not,

>> right?

>> And was creeped out about it and never

went and was never involved. Well, the

point I was just making is that in your

present circumstance with the, you know,

enormous audience and and the reach of

this show and and all your work, the

small videos, etc. Um, of course you're

a terrific person because now I can call

you up and say, uh, hey, will you have

this person on? Or I can say, hey, will

you be really skeptical about this topic

and will you say, I don't believe it.

And will you say, I think it's wrong or

will you say, I think it's anti-semitism

or will you will you say such and such?

And brother, you will. the the moment

where I started to, you know, really

understand the blackmail angle um was

when I started reading some of the

particular emails that Epstein had sent

to himself.

>> One in particular where he sent himself

an email regarding Bill Gates. He's

alleging that Bill Gates has slept with

He's sending himself an email.

>> Yes.

>> Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with

someone, some some Russian prostitute,

and that he got an STD, an extrammarital

affair, all of these allegations. And

when I read that email, um, then I

thought, oh, you know, he was he was a

black mailer.

>> He was definitely a black mailer and

he's collected all these rich and famous

people and he has them in his pocket

now.

>> Just to close off then on this uh point

of Epstein before we move on, you said

they they've released some of the files

and you said they hadn't released other

files. Yes. And you have implied that

was because they basically can't

>> release these other files necessarily.

>> Well, I don't I don't know what I think

more is coming. I think more will be

released, but there are certainly files,

including files even right now, even

yesterday, though there's a law. Uh, as

you may know, Congress voted for a law

to release everything unredacted. Um,

there's still a lot of redacted stuff.

So, there's more to come. And, uh, will

some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody going

to sit here like I did today and say,

"Hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah

blah, and let me just tell you what was

really going on. Uh, you know, I'm the

head of the CIA, and let me tell you

what was really going on." Not likely.

>> But Trump knows. He knows who Jeffrey

Jeffrey Epstein really was.

>> I would say all senior people in the US

government and and many many people in

general know everything that you and I

have discussed here today.

>> No secret. By the way, what do you

think? Let's imagine somebody came

forward and said this country described

as our greatest ally. I would say our

greatest ally is the UK

>> uh based on on history. But, uh, Israel

is an important ally in the Middle East

and it's a it's a democracy and it's

more of a western government. I get it.

Um, but what do you think? The the the

country comes out and somebody

officially says, "Okay, let me tell you

what was going on." Do you think the

American public can handle it?

>> I think they either way now deserve to

know the truth.

Whether they can handle it or not is

probably secondary to whether they I

think people need to know the truth.

We've I think like the problem is people

have been like partially traumatized by

all of this stuff and so now I think the

remedy is full transparency.

>> I agree and by the way uh this is close

uh because we we got a lot of

information whereas you know 5 weeks ago

or or eight weeks ago people were saying

oh there's nothing more that's it that's

all there is. I mean, this is a big step

and I think it's a big step as big a

step toward transparency as uh probably

as I've seen in my lifetime by a

government. The exception would be if

it's not a government what Elon did

after buying Twitter, the release of the

Twitter files. That was a very

impressive thing of letting three

journalists come in and just go through

everything. I think it would be awesome

if the US government ever, Governments

don't do this very often, but if they

ever said, "Okay, everybody, put on your

seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly

what happened with the JFK assassination

or exactly what happened with the

assassination of Robert F. Kennedy,

Senator Robert F. Kennedy, when he ran

for president." There are some examples

of this in US history where it feels

like after about 25 years, we'll start

telling the truth about something. 50

years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to

uh to the FDA and they said, "Look, our

baby powder, you know, that stuff that

you put on the baby and you breathe and

the mother breathes. Well, it's got

asbestous in it and it causes cancer."

And the FDA said, "Well, thanks for

bringing this to our attention. We'll

begin to study how much asbestous is an

allowable amount." Now, they never

considered zero, which is what I'd want

on my baby or you'd want on your baby.

and they began to study and then they

studied for a while and they studied for

a while and lo and behold 40 years had

gone by and they hadn't come out with a

ruling to say there shouldn't be any

asbestous in in Johnson and Johnson baby

powder when did they come out with that

ruling by the way last year end of 2024

after 52 years. So at the beginning the

government is saying asbestous no what

are you talking about Agent Orange the

same story Agent Orange material used in

Vietnam for defoliation uh hurt people

killed people and caused birth defects

in their kids including American

soldiers lots of them the government

knew it they had tested it on 40 lab

mice and lab mice don't have a good life

generally anyway they don't have good

life expectancy but in this case 38 died

within 5 days what the government do

with that information? Oh, put that in a

top secret file and get rid of that. And

then it sits for a long, long time and

the Institute of Medicine says, "Agent

Orange hurting people. What are you

talking about?" No. And they lie and

they lie and they lie and then finally

20 25 years later, okay, yeah, sorry, we

were wrong. It does it does cause birth

defects. You see that same story with uh

breast implants, silicone breast

implants. You see that same story with

uh baby formula uh with baby food which

has arsenic in it. I don't want any

arsenic in baby food but deny deny deny

deny and we'll see it with mass

vaccination because after some years

there will be okay yes there is a good

chance that it causes myocarditis

already been admitted by the way

pericarditis uh cancer in young people

it it was a bad product sorry but they

won't do it a year away from a thing and

they obviously as we can see every day

they won't do it five years away it's

very easy to see and to locate when the

US government or any power center. This

is I'm an American. I'm all for America.

But all power centers in human history

uh lie. Knowing that they are lying does

not tell you the truth, however. Meaning

knowing that Oswald did not act alone as

a shooter from the sixth floor of the

Texas Book Depository, if he was a

shooter at all. Knowing that does not

tell you who was the shooter. So often

the best we can get in our skepticism is

to know that we are not being told the

truth. When I grew up, I felt I feel

like I was very naive to the nature of

how the world really operates. And the

more I've done podcasts and frankly, you

know, you you you get invited to

interesting things and you meet like

rich people and famous people and

billionaires. And I went to Davos this

year, which I think people think makes

me some kind of like I don't know, I

wasn't if there was if the Illuminati at

Davos, they didn't invite me into that

room. But I got to like I got to see

like really powerful people and world

leaders and all those kinds of things.

And I've sat here and interviewed so

many CIA spies and I've learned that

there are things going on out of plain

sight. So the version of reality that

the average person has as they go

through their life, how has the work

you've done over the last several

decades of your career shifted your

belief about the version of reality that

actually exists? Like how how are they

different?

>> So I I can I can answer it easily

because I was just like you. I would say

I was naive. And in fact, by the way, I

want to quickly acknowledge that I'm

probably naive today, even with what

you've heard, because there may be a

level above the level above the level

above that that I'm not seeing or I'm

choosing not to see. I can tell you the

exact evolution for me, not dissimilar

to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I

believe the courts will always come up

with a fair decision. I believe that the

IRS will only collect uh money and

destroy people with good reason, and

they won't do it with bad reason. I

believed everything and the a lot of it

right up until co by the way right up

until seeing what went on with both mass

vaccination and the the mass control

through fear here's what I want to tell

you I've learned it's not that um

unusual I think I think it's easy to to

embrace which is that are human beings

the same as they were a thousand years

ago are human beings the same as they

were in Caesar's time what did Caesar do

by the way pick a a Roman emperor.

Whatever the they wanted to do,

they had sex with who and what they

wanted. 8 years old, 10 years old, boy,

girl, whatever it may be. Even in King

Farooq's time in Egypt, one of the last

kings of of Egypt, if you were a house

guest, they'd say to you, you know what?

We're going to have dinner at 6. We can

send somebody to your room. Do you want

a young boy or a young girl? No shame to

it. No problem whatsoever. The rich and

powerful people like the ones you were

describing at Davos often go from, "I

already have all the money. I've already

had all the fame. I've already had all

the influence. What do I want to do

now?" And sometimes they want to do

forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a

girl in an apartment. These are easy,

right? Uh, cheat on my wife. These are

easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not

getting so easy anymore, but I've done

all the other stuff. And that's what the

Epstein piece appeals to, which is the

forbidden. I want to be very concise in

in answering this question about what

changed uh in terms of my view, how I've

gotten, you know, started where I

started. First of all, I worked in

government, worked in the Reagan

administration. I lied. I did things

that were lies that were deceitful

several times in my career. Uh I can

give you examples in a minute if you

want, but uh you know to to make a

prosecution work. I I reached a bit uh

to get somebody some bad guy who was

trying to kill a client uh you know uh

prosecuted or or in in custody for a

longer period of time. Um I was in many

meetings where the questions were this

thing happened not how shall we tell the

public but what shall we tell the

public? How shall we spin this thing?

This is the norm in every corporate uh

boardroom in America. It's not, oh,

there's there's a cancer causing

asbestous in the baby powder. I guess we

better let everybody know. That's not

the meeting. The meeting is, let's

notify the FDA and say it's under study.

And so if we get asked, we'll get get

through this thing. Who goes to jail, by

the way, in these corporations for the

they do, opioids, etc. My god, a

100,000 people dying from heart attacks

from from a pain pill, for example. Uh

Vio for God's sake. Uh the I mean it's

it's unbelievable and nobody gets in

trouble, right? Companies are fined. Do

you know what the fines mean to these

companies? In in that new book I gave

you, Forbidden Facts, I I lay out what

all the pharma companies have been fined

criminally, what it cost them and what

they made nonetheless, right? And of

course they made the right decision

because financially they they did very

well. But I want to get to the concise

part. Look at world history as a pie

chart, right? The entire thing is

tyranny as a government method, as a

control method. Just a tiny sliver is uh

representative democracy. A little bit

starting in Greece, uh Western Europe,

the United States, tiny sliver. So our

norm, Stephen, is tyranny. That is the

norm for human beings. And what happens

to that tiny sliver that I'm describing?

That tiny sliver always moves toward

totalitarianism.

>> What does that mean? It means that the

the representative democracy we have

let's say in the UK which is pretty

stressed right now in terms of of

freedom of speech or in the United

States moves toward totalitarianism in

that it says it starts with we pass a

law and if you know the the US

constitution says if there isn't a law

prohibiting it you can do it and for

government it says if there isn't a law

allowing it you cannot do it that's the

US constitute itution. That's the US

method. Well, look what it's become. A

law gets passed and then regulators,

unelected officials, go nuts on

interpreting that law the way they want

to and applying it the way they want to.

And so the the it moves toward

totalitarianism. 40,000 new laws passed

in the United States every year. How

many rescended? Almost none.

>> So where are we now?

here in the United States where we both

asked that or in the UK where are we in

the arc of history because it kind of

does seem to move in sort of cycles

>> now the we if you're talking about where

are we now like western society or the

US empire in decline

and first of all is it an empire

obviously right we have 760

military bases overseas 760 we have a

larger budget for what we call defense

now called war since Trump has changed

the name to Department of War more

accurately. Um, we have a larger budget

than every other country in the world

combined for military spending. How many

overseas bases does China have? I think

it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's

all lovely. I'm just saying they have a

different method. They have a method

closer to what we had in the 60s, which

was to come in with with beneficial

help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc.

So, we're an empire and we're an empire

in decline. And a moment ago when I said

that that tyranny is the normal state of

affairs for uh how people are governed.

How is it exercised? Through fear.

Always through fear. Fear is the method

that causes division. And division is

the fuel of power. Meaning you want the

population to be divided. You want the

left and the right. You want the the uh

Trumpers and the and the and the

Democrats and the forever Trumpers and

the never Trumpers. Division is the fuel

that all world leaders relish. I give

you the example in the cleanest terms.

The king and the queen look over the

castle wall and when they see their

subjects fighting, they high-five each

other because if the if they're fighting

with each other, they're not coming over

the wall. And there's always a wall. And

but if they're not fighting with each

other, that's a big problem because then

they're coming over the wall because

everybody knows in their heart, wait a

minute, these are living in

absolute luxury while I don't I can't

afford to feed my kids. They their their

motorcades and today and in those days

they're, you know, beautiful ornate uh

wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go

by and splatter mud on me in the street.

What really is the difference? I mean,

royalty is such a scam.

>> So, what happens to the Western world if

we're in a declining empire?

>> I give you the the optimistic version

because I have a dear friend happens to

live in Cape Town who helps me with this

sometimes because like anybody when I

look a lot at uh at at what happens, I

can get discouraged. I can get cynical.

It's not a good place to live. I think

uh Tony maybe even he said it on your

show Tony Robbins which is uh you know

that what you focus on will determine uh

the quality of your life. So I can focus

on the pharma companies and all the

they're doing or I can focus on on the

beauty of of nature and spend more time

in nature and spend more time with my

kids etc. So my optimistic answer which

comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in

in Cape Town is that even if empires

decay and and social decay is is outside

this studio. It's in London. It's in New

York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in

Seattle. It's in Portland. It's

unavoidable. Take a drive in Los

Angeles. You know it. Every freeway

on-ramp, not some. Every single one of

them has tents underneath it with people

living there. That is not good news. And

so, but here's the good news part of it.

The optimistic part of it is that

survival and thriving always prevails

and it does not rely on these systems.

Meaning, you are who you are as a in the

spiritual sense or or in the scientific

sense, whatever way you want to look at

yourself as a as a collection of energy

that doesn't need that body by the way,

right? The energy doesn't go anywhere

when that body is done. Uh meaning it's

the energy is still there. It's not

destructible. And uh so it's

indestructible. So um you are this this

being this awareness this consciousness.

And if around us when we go outside here

today all the buildings are gone and and

social decay has accelerated are we

going to be okay? And the answer is yes.

What happens now? We're living in the

forest and now I say Stephen you're

pretty good at carpentry right? Come

join us. And you say you're good at

planting sweet potatoes. We need some of

that. Let's do that. and small

populations of people begin again,

commence again, even after nuclear war,

after a variety of things. And I know

it's crazy to some people, but I take my

my hope and my optimism from that fact,

which is that it doesn't rely upon the

electricity working. It doesn't rely

upon the plumbing working and the sewage

system working. And eventually there's

enough of the earth, natural earth, for

us to do what has happened before, which

is start again. Give you a very fast

aspect of this. Thousand years ago,

there's a thousand little governments.

There's shoguns in Japan. There's

villages. There's a guy has 300 people

and he's the chief. Then it becomes what

it was in your life and my life, which

is about 190 countries. But those 190

countries are really about five power

centers, right? There's NATO, there's

there's Brexit, there's the the oil

producing countries. And eventually that

five power centers will come to two

power centers. The West, US, and China

is my prediction, but it'll be somebody

else's prediction. Can do it

differently. And then those two

are standing in a room together. And one

has to kill the other. That's the course

of history. That's how it goes. That's

how it goes in every geographical area

in history, which is we've got 30

villages and if I can find your village,

we'll take the women, we'll take the

children, and we'll kill the men. And

it's just a matter of math. How many of

there are of you and how many are there

of of our group? It's I think it's

somewhat inconceivable especially for

people of my generation to think that

the US is at all at some point going to

be at war with China because we've never

you know we never experienced a world

war but because the stakes are now so

high with nuclear weapons a war

theoretically wouldn't be like previous

wars it would be catastrophic.

>> So it's it's unimaginable. Some people

say now nuclear wars have sorry nuclear

weapons have now stopped us from getting

into World War II as easily and

therefore it won't happen.

>> Yes. Some people believe in that general

concept of mutually assured destruction

which is that neither side will will do

it. But you said it's almost impossible

for you to imagine or words to that

effect. Um uh I want to help you uh with

that imagining and it goes like this. We

are currently at war with Russia. We are

not supporting the the war in Ukraine

only. We are at war with Russia because

we are providing satellite information,

electronic warfare strategies, drone

strategies, providing targeting

information, and that is war today. That

is war. War is not just the guys on the

battlefield with rifles. That's the

low-end element. The high-end element is

supersonic missiles, which Russia has,

and the high-end element is intel and

satellite technology. and the wide

variety of things that are going on,

some of which aren't even in the news,

by the way, that go on in Russia and

they say, "Oh shit." Uh, or that go on

in Ukraine and they say, "Oh the

Russians have figured out that thing."

But the US is so far beyond other

countries in the world in terms of

technology. And so that is war with

Russia. And you could say that our war

with North Vietnam was war with China.

But now there's just no question about

it. So that was a long answer, Stephen,

to say I want to get you your

imagination closer. We're already at war

with Russia.

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Speaking of crazy weapons, I was um I

was reading about a story where you did

a a tour with the CIA and they showed

you a mechanical dragonfly.

>> Yeah.

>> With a battery. What What did they show

you?

>> Well, I've given a I've had a lot to do

with with the agency that's been that's

been public over the years. And I was

giving a talk and then afterwards they

took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They

showed me a lot of things. Oh, here's

the helmet that was worn by that pilot

who was shot down over Russia named

Powers. all kinds of interesting

memorabilia and one of them was a little

dragonfly the size of a dragonfly and it

was um mechanical and I looked at it

real closely and thought wow that that's

really fantastic it's very interesting

and he said you don't have any questions

at all I said no I mean I I get it and

he said why don't you ask me when it was

built U and I said okay when was it

built 1967

in 1967 before we had any

miniaturaturized electronics or motoriis

ization. The CIA had built that little

thing and uh and it was a a little

camera that would fly around in here as

a dragonfly and then uh and then you

know fly home and I don't know how many

pictures it held but it's an interesting

piece I want to share with you about AI

which is people wonder you know how

sophisticated is AI and and where is it

my belief is that everything we have

access to like AI we probably have

something that the US intelligence had

10 years ago. We're probably dealing

with something quite old already.

>> I'm just looking at the a picture of

this dragon.

>> Oh, I didn't even know it was public.

>> Um, this

>> that's the There he is.

>> This little thing here.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, this was made, as you say,

what 50 years ago. So, one can only

imagine the type of technology they have

now.

>> Oh, of course.

>> I mean, they pro they don't even need to

fly a dragonfly in because we have all

these electronic devices.

>> Of course, they can they can turn on our

devices. probably your watch if it's a

an Apple watch but certainly your phone

uh and u yeah uh the we are

participating in I won't even call it an

experiment but a process that you read

1984 I'm sure and most of your audience

did I was very heartened during the

beginning of co that 1984 became the

17th bestselling book in the world in

the English language

>> telling me ah people are paying

attention they see that what they're

experiencing here has a degree of 1984

to it. I think all science fiction

stories come true. I really do. I see it

time after time. What advice would you

give to my listeners about how to

navigate in the world we're living in

today, you know, to avoid risk, threat,

you know, whether that's of our soft

tissue as you said or just with our

privacy or lives generally. Like where

does the advice start? You said you

raised 10 kids.

>> Yeah.

>> What advice are you giving to your 10

kids? Uh well they they all know that

their dad is a big proponent uh and and

my first book which is still a a very uh

big book the gift of fear that book is I

think still the bestselling book in the

world on violence after 25 years and um

that book is all about intuition and

personal responsibility. So the very

first thing I would say to your

listeners, to you to remind myself as

well is that human beings did not get

the biggest claws or the biggest teeth

or the biggest muscles. We got the

biggest brains relative to our size. And

the nuclear defense system that all

human beings have is intuition. Much

different from logic. Intuition, the

root of it, by the way, I learned when I

was writing that book, is in tear, which

means to guard and to protect. So

intuition when you think about it, oh, I

just have a feeling I should go back to

the apartment and doublech checkck such

and such. Did I leave the fire on on the

pot? And you go back and you open the

the door and you didn't leave the fire

on the pot, but something else will

always be going on that makes you glad

you came back. I believe that intuition

is always right in at least two ways.

One, it always has your best interest at

heart. It's not with you. It's

giving you real information that's

valuable. And and number two, uh it's

always based on something. And so our

journey is to figure out when I have an

intuitive feeling like do this show with

you, who knows why, but when I have that

intuitive feeling, and by the way, I

don't do most shows. I don't know what

the reason is. I don't know what it'll

be. I mean, I can make up one with

logic, right? I like that guy. I learned

a lot from his shows. I can create a

case. I can make a case for anything.

But if it's just based on what I feel

and everything you've succeeded at and

accomplished was based on what you felt.

It was based on intuition. In America,

in the West, we think we're doing it by

logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint

presentation and I say to the board,

"Here's the reason. Here's why, and

here's the percentages." And they say,

"Oh, good." The board at corporations in

America would actually prefer that I use

logic even if I'm wrong instead of using

intuition even if I'm right. So when I

say to you, no, I just think it's the

right thing to do. I I think it'd be

smart. I think it'll be it'll really

work out like something like Amazon

Prime that people opposed and then it's

like 175 million people just in America

are using it. Big success. Intuitive

process, not a not a logic process.

Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A

B C D. Intuition does A to Z instantly.

And you don't know why. It's knowing

without knowing why. I don't feel good

about that person. I'm I'm gonna back I

I said I was going to make this business

deal. I'm backing out of it. I said I

was going to show up to that thing. I'm

calling and cancelling. And by the way,

cancelling one of my favorite things. I

recommend it to everybody. I recommend

cancelling and postponing to everybody I

know. You are not obligated to keep your

plans. You made a plan 3 months ago and

you don't know who you'll even be or if

you or them or anybody will even be

alive 3 months from now. There's nothing

wrong with cancelling. Now I don't do it

rudely by the way but just to finish on

you know sort of what your listen your

your viewers uh and listeners can do is

that is to really fall in love with

intuition and to learn the way you

communicate with yourself. The there's

signals from intuition. Curiosity you

just wonder something. Suspicion

worry can even be a signal of intuition.

Um but the biggest one is true fear.

When you feel true fearh I don't want to

do this. I wanted to ask you a question

about this. I met with Magnus Carlson

who is the arguably the best chess

player in the world. And I met with him

after spending some time in Cape Town

writing about gut instinct and

intuition, all these kinds of things.

And one of the things that I learned

through my writing was that in in many

cases when someone has really

well-trained intuition, their first

thought is the right thought. And

actually, if you give them longer to

think about the problem, they make a

worse decision. So when I met Magnus

Carlson as a as the number one chess

player in the world backstage, we were

both on stage together. I said to him, I

said, "Listen, I got a question to ask

you. Do you basically now just run off

intuition or do you think?" And he said,

"My first thought is nearly always

right." So actually, I spend the other

time just confirming the first sort of

intuition that I had. And actually, I

was telling him about a dodgeball game

where they got dodgeball players,

professional dodgeball players, to look

at a frozen image of a dodgeball game

and said, "Where would you throw the

ball?"

>> And when they gave them little time to

decide, they made a better decision.

When they just went with their first gut

instinct, they made a better decision.

They unfroze it and it was the right

throw. If they gave them longer,

>> they made the worst decision. And the

the sort of caveat and I guess the

question for you is it appeared to me

that you almost have to train the

intuition. Like areas in our life where

we've got multiple reps and pattern

recognition, our intuition is valuable.

But then in other areas of our life

where we haven't trained the muscle yet,

we can make bad decisions. One such

example would just be like the first

time you start hiring people.

>> You don't have a trained intuition yet.

So you go, "Yeah, she seems nice." But

then you get I'm probably been hiring

thousands of people for 15 years now and

I get you know I get an intuition. So do

you have to train your intuition?

>> Well I think it happens automatically as

you as you live life that new

distinctions are added. Um but I also

believe that uh it is a natural

resource. I could think of it in a

spiritual sense. It's very hard to

figure out why we feel a certain way and

we do what what Magnus said which is we

get our answer and then we backtrack and

see if it fits. Right. I think the

training that's necessary, Stephen, is

not the training to uh improve your

intuition. Uh but rather the training to

listen to it and to not interrogate it

and to not prosecute it. Because I'll

give you an example. A woman is working

late at night in a in an office building

like this. She's on the 10th floor.

She's leaving. She pushes the button for

the elevator. The elevator door opens

up. Inside the elevator is a man who

causes her fear. She doesn't like it for

whatever reason. Obviously, she has no

opportunity yet to assess all the

issues. What's he dressed like? What's

he look like? What did I hear 3 weeks

ago about a guy who wore a blue cap and

t-shirt and she doesn't have any time

for her first reaction was like that.

What does she do? Most women, they get

into a steel soundproof chamber

with someone they're afraid of. And

there's not another animal in nature

that will do it. Now, why does she do

it? Because the thought comes, oh, I

don't want him to think I'm a racist

because he's Hispanic or I don't want to

be that kind of person or I don't want

this reality to be true, so I'm going to

act like it's not true. Right? And what

I say is let the door close in his face.

No problem. If you've got the signal, uh

that's a lowcost decision. Wait for the

next elevator. Right? That's a very

lowcost issue. Now, there are so many

examples of this in my work where I

interviewed people who had been

victimized. And time after time, they

would tell me, I knew when I walked into

that underground parking lot that that

was the same car that I'd seen earlier.

I knew when I met that guy such and

such. In fact, there's a beautiful a

woman who wrote me the most beautiful

thing. I I think it's in in Gift of Fear

or or it's in one of the subsequent

books. And she said that she would look

at her lifelong diary. She'd kept a

lifelong diary and she looked back at it

and it would say met this guy um feel a

little queasy about him, not so sure,

dated him,

married him. And then she what she wrote

to me was she said again and again I

could see there it was in my diary

listen to this the ending embedded in

the beginning and so what I encourage

people to do going to your original

answer is how people can be safer is

listen to their intuition know that its

function is to protect you that's what

it's doing when I was reading about your

work on intuition and your perspective

on it I it got me thinking about people

in my life that I

>> have to get rid of tomorrow

Well, actually that I have you know that

little alarm bell in your head when you

have you have a little alarm bell

intuition like I don't know what the

answer is but I feel like something

isn't right

>> and that little alarm bell in my head

I'm like so what do I do about that? And

I think there was one particular example

I was thinking of where I was getting

this little vibe from someone that

something was just off. And then 3

months later, we were at this event and

they started opening up about their

childhood.

And in the course of opening up about

their childhood, I learned something

about their mother and something their

mother used to do to them.

>> And they were talking to someone else

about this behavior that it's created in

them. M

>> it suddenly all made sense. That thing

that was giving me was making me feel

like the vibe was off. I think now is

because of something from their

childhood that I didn't actually know

which meant they have this behavior

which will make you feel a little bit

uncomfortable.

>> And in that moment and with I was

thinking about this example before you

arrived cuz I was like in that case my

my intuition told me something but I

didn't know what it was telling me. I

imagine a lot of people have that. They

have a vibe of someone something's not

quite right and they're interpreting it

to mean X when it could be Y.

>> Yes. Sometimes there's a very nice like

in my life and I suspect in yours too,

there's often a very straight line

between certain childhood experiences

and what we ultimately do. In my case, a

very easy one is there was fear. I then

come to have a deep understanding of

fear, both sides of it. uh and and and

some compassion for it and some uh uh

insight and I I then study it. There was

violence uh in my childhood. And so I

now come now it's so long ago that I'm

71. So my childhood is so long ago now

that it doesn't have a a grip on my

throat like it did for a lot of my life

where the narrative was very very

important to me and the narrative of my

childhood was important. Go ahead. You

can ask question. I was going to

probably give people the context on your

childhood.

>> Oh, uh, you or me. I'll do it. Okay,

good. Yeah, my childhood. Damn it. I'll

I'll tell them. Uh, so yeah, a very, you

know, very difficult time. My mother was

a heroin addict. Uh, she was, uh, quite

violent. She was very troubled. She

committed suicide when she was, uh, 39

years old and I was 16. And that was a a

kind of failure for me because I

considered it my job to to get us all

through this drama alive. Um, she shot

my stepfather in front of me. Uh, a lot

of in that house that we lived in, I

think there I I saw the house a few

months ago, by the way. I think there

are nine bullets in the walls and floor

of that house uh that I can account for,

probably still there. And so, while I'm

describing this to you dispassionately,

uh, it's because of two things. The

distance in terms of time, but most of

all because of healing. And the the I

want to give you my definition of

healing in this context. My definition

of healing for all of us is when we stop

using any of our energy to manage the

past. And this gives us all of our

energy in the present moment. And so

what do I mean using energy to manage

the past? Well, if I'm keeping that

story going and I'm saying to my wife,

well, because my mama did this, this is

why I feel such and such. which I went

through times in my life when when those

things were much closer to me. Today, I

feel like I'm not using any of my energy

to manage the past. The the narrative I

told you this whole series of of dramas

happened. And anytime you hear about a

parent or or anybody in somebody's life

committing suicide, we often think, "Oh,

what a terrible experience that must

have been." What you really ought to

think when you hear about somebody

committing suicide is, "Oh, what a

series of terrible experiences there

must have been leading up to that." And

I want to tell you real quickly that I

had a a couple of dreams that my mother

was in that were particularly powerful.

And I offered this to the audience to

know that dream experiences are

sometimes all you're going to get.

Right? Because my mother died when I was

16. So I don't have an opportunity to

sit across the table with her and say,

"What were you thinking when you such

and such and what was going on in your

life when such and such?" And and but in

a dream, she came to me once and I asked

her, "Why were you so cruel to me?" And

she was totally perplexed and she said

to me, "Cruel to you, I was preparing

you for this extraordinary life."

And I think that's true.

I think that's what happened is that for

you, whatever your experience was, for

Tony Robbins, who we talked about

earlier, what his experience was, it

took those experiences. You take away

those experiences and you don't have

someone who grows up wanting nothing

more than to write these books for free

and sell them for free and get them

published for free like Forbidden Facts,

the current book, in order to help

people deal with these issues of

skepticism, of fear, etc. You don't get

somebody doing what I do. Uh where my

ambition is long gone. My ambition for

more more anything, more money, more

houses. Well, houses I might still slip

on, but now it's about service to other

people. Wasn't always, but it was

service to other people because I

believe that public life, it includes

you. If all you do is give me a bad

example, that's service. If you give me

a good example, that's a prettier form

of service. It's a maybe it's a nicer

job you got, but ultimately all of it is

service. Everything that we can observe

in of people in public life and people

in our private lives. It's all service.

You know, I remember a friend of mine

telling me he went back home for

Thanksgiving and he saw his whole family

and he said he learned to only stay for

one day. He said because all the

happened on the second day with his

family if he stayed for two days. And he

also learned to stay in a hotel. I said,

"Are you staying at home?" He said, "Oh,

No, never never stay at home.

Because here was this group of people.

But what he told me that was interesting

is he said, "Ah, Aunt Charlene, you

taught me to speak more quietly because

you talk so loud." And he says,

"Uncle Carlo, you you taught me to be

more gentle because, man, you're rough

in everything you do. Throw the glasses

around and the way you engage. Dad, you

taught me to listen to people because

you never listen to a thing I

said even today. Isn't it a beautiful

way of looking at it? Basically, these

were the teachers in in our lives. For

my mother, 100% uh the I'm I'm so far

past forgiveness and so far into

gratitude for the pieces that were

wonderful. And by the way, this is a

suffering person, right? This is a

person that, you know, that charities

are for and and social welfare is for.

Uh, you know, a woman with three kids

and no job and a heroin addict for God's

sake. That's not an easy job. Uh, and

and other drugs too, by the way, which

helped me as I grew up to be skeptical

of pharma

because some of the pills she took, one

of them called Doradin, has now been

taken off the market for causing what?

Psychosis,

which explains a lot of her craziness.

And so all of this this, you know,

teaching that it depends what you do

with it. Meaning you we all we all

nobody gets out of here alive, right?

Everybody's got a story to tell. And I

remember a case where I overvalued my

own ability to predict human behavior,

which I say, you know, I say in these

books, you can predict human behavior,

right? To to drive here today in

traffic, I had to predict the behavior

of thousands of people based on just the

little movements of the big metal

objects around them. You know that guy

who starts to move over into your lane

and then he catches himself and goes.

You never trust that guy. You always

want to get way behind him or way in

front of him. So, we're predicting human

behavior all the time. But I overvalued

mine. I thought, "Oh, I'm Mr. Genius

predicting human behavior because I

developed these systems of artificial

intuition that predict human behavior."

And I was at a meeting and there were a

group of people at the meeting and it

was going to start in about 5 minutes.

And a few people were comforting one

woman who was really sobbing at the end

of the table. And I thought to myself

judgmentally, um, why'd she even come to

the meeting? I mean, if she can't do the

meeting, like, what's she doing here?

And I knew it was a boyfriend issue,

right? That's what she's crying about

and they're comforting her. The meeting

begins and that woman speaks first and

she says through her tears, "I'm sorry

you guys. Uh, I'll do my best at the

meeting, but as many of you know, my

husband killed my 12-year-old son 4 days

ago."

So my little journey into judgmental

prediction was about as wrong as you

could be and it was a uh a humbling

experience for me because I would have

discounted that person in a moment.

That's the other side of of prediction

and intuition, right? You can discount

people uh and quickly toss them away.

And so you know when you get this

intuitive signal, do we have a

responsibility to understand it? Yeah,

we have a responsibility to understand

it. How many people have I met who I

thought what an that guy is. I

don't ever want to talk to that guy

again. And I didn't. My loss. Sometimes

it was would have been the greatest

person in the world. Uh sometimes it

would have been a great relationship.

And now I apply the the George Harrison

rule. George Harrison the Beatles which

writes this who writes this unbelievable

lyric that's in While My Guitar Gently