You dedicated your book with an apology

to a generation of women who've been

misled.

>> I did.

>> How have they been misled?

>> Yeah.

>> I was essentially apologizing for

the oversight that I believe

both my generation, which is Gen X, by

the way. I was born in ' 68. and the

generation one up from me, which is the

boomers, which I think is more really

what I'm talking about, but definitely

some Gen X. um the oversight that they

um did not share with their children,

their daughters in particular, cuz I

really write mostly for young women.

Um how to go about building a life that

essentially includes marriage and

motherhood. That the messaging has been

for decades now.

um you can do anything you want to do

without any caveats there with no

explanation or nuance.

You need to sort of prove yourself in

the world in the way men do because

equality is the goal. [snorts] Men and

women are the same. This this kind of

messaging um and then taught them pretty

much to put career at the center of

their lives. And what they didn't do was

talk about how marriage and motherhood

was going to fit into their lives and

into that equation if they're just

singularly focused on education and

career.

>> So what ends up happening is that they

get somewhere around 30, the age of 30.

And it is well known that women start to

think very differently about their

future because they want to start having

a family and they hear that clock

ticking

and their priorities are shifting and

they feel stuck. They feel like all

these decisions that they've made up to

this point were made with a different

plan in mind because nobody wanted to

talk about the fact that men and women

are different and so it's okay to

construct a different kind of life.

>> Why do you think it's unpopular to warn

women of that?

>> Because the goal is a political one. It

is about men and women being um equal

which doesn't mean equal in value the

way I define it but um sameness

basically interchangeability that you

know what one can do the other can do

which by the way is often true but it

doesn't take human desire into account.

So male and female desire is very very

different. And we don't talk about that

cuz that would highlight how men and

women are different. And the goal is for

men and women to be the same and to have

these trajectories that are the same so

that everything can be equal and 50/50

in this sort of utopian version of

>> what life should look like for men and

women. And it's just not working. It's

been several decades now with this

messaging.

>> Yeah. I I had this idea a little while

ago, the bigotry of male expectations.

So there's an idea called the bigotry of

small expectations or of low

expectations which

>> it kind of explains some of the white

savior complex that um

>> college educated white people have

around minorities that we will give you

a helping hand allow us poor people from

a minority background we will help you

along and there's kind of a similar

situation I think that's happening with

the way that women are being spoken to

specifically by other women which is

you are only as valuable as you are able

to play the role that typically men have

done.

>> And you know that in some ways sounds

very liberating. You go, "Wow, this is

independence. It's pushing women to be

able to do what they want to do without

the constraints that would have held

them back previously." And I think that

that's true.

>> But what it forgets is that implicitly

that denigrates what women have

typically done. It makes them secondass

citizens for doing the things that they

used to do. There was a famous study

that happened where um hunter gatherers

from ancestral times were analyzed using

modern huntergatherer societies and

women the

slightly uh how would you say motivated

research team analyzed the data and said

women did just as much big game hunting

as men and maybe even more. And what

they were trying to put across was women

were able to do the thing that men did.

Now they [ __ ] with the data. It turned

out that that wasn't really the truth in

at all. But what it implicitly said was

that hunting was important, but

gathering wasn't.

>> Exactly.

>> And how is that not misogynistic? Like

that's the most misogynistic thing that

I can think of from someone that's

supposed to be

>> pro- women. You're saying the thing that

you do or did or your ancestors do or

did naturally

>> is not as important. And only if you're

able to contort yourself into the shape

of a manh

>> are you worth something.

So, in the same way you had women that

did not fit the mold, say back in the

50s and 60s, who maybe did want more,

right, from life than being just a wife

and mother.

>> Um, although I use the word just,

[laughter] only to make a point, not

because I feel that way about it. Um, if

they did want more, they felt a little

odd. And now you fast forward half a

century and it's the complete opposite.

>> Um, it's important for people to

understand, which I don't think, uh,

people in their 20s and 30s do so much.

Um, and that is how this all really came

to be. Because feminism, the second

wave, we're talking about 1970s

feminism.

When you do a deep dive, you which most

people aren't going to do, you know, but

if you do it,

>> I go here.

>> If you do it, [laughter] it was so

depressing to have to go through all

that stuff back in the day. Um,

you you come to realize that the most

the loudest voices that we heard from,

which is just a minority of women,

right? It's not the everyday women.

These are very uh small uh group of

women who had some power and clout. And

if you study their backgrounds, you find

that just about every single one of them

had a very dysfunctional

story or upbringing or background that

caused them to turn away either from men

or marriage as a as an institution.

[snorts] And rather than study their own

story and come to terms with it, what

happened to their really their mom and

dad is what we're talking about. They

extrapolated that story to mean, oh, the

whole system screwed up. Oh, marriage is

oppressive. Oh, no woman can be happy at

home. I mean, they just

>> made these stories and because they had

the spotlight

>> and people don't do that research, it

sounded plausible because maybe if

you're hearing if you're a woman who

kind of back in the day did feel sort of

whatever about motherhood, you're going

to that's going to speak to you

>> or constrained by the lack of

independence and financial freedom

>> because you are constrained for a while.

You you're going it's a lot of work and

it's a tremendous amount of sacrifice.

It's a trade-off um that obviously I

feel is 150% worth it. But we don't live

in that world that that it after so many

years of all of that messaging. Um it's

it's not like feminism. You don't nobody

really talks about it as a thing out in

the world anymore. It's more like it's

just embedded into the fabric now of

society. You don't question or discuss

feminism per se. It's just kind of

accepted and known. Well, of course, in

order for a woman to be equal to a man,

she's got to live that same life. You

can't be powerful um or happy or

liberated or empowered if you're not

working for pay.

>> And if you do that, if you do the

opposite of that, it's because you're

specifically being counterculture

>> or oppressed. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've

been conned by the patriarchy.

>> There you go. Yeah.

So basically you're saying modern

culture has prepared women for work.

>> Yes.

>> But not for relationships and family.

>> 150%. That's what I'm saying. And so

what I'm I'm receiving the women as a

coach who are coming in and as I say

they're usually around 30, maybe a

little younger, maybe a little older and

all of a sudden their priorities shift

dramatically and they desperately want a

baby or they want to get married and

can't find a man or they are pregnant

and they want to stay home and can't

because they made all these decisions

professionally, relationally,

financially to set them up for a life

where you are never out of the

workforce.

>> [snorts]

>> And when you do that, you're you're

going to feel stuck and it's going to be

a lot harder to extricate yourself from

that if you once your priorities shift.

>> And that's kind of where I come in when

they call me. It's like, ah, and

sometimes their husbands don't want them

to do it. And it's just been this it's

this mess really because of all this

messaging and because going back to your

initial question about apologizing to

them, what I'm basically saying is, I'm

sorry you were set up to fail. It's

wrong. And you were set up because of

politics. And you don't really realize

that cuz this goes way back before you

were even born.

>> What are the decisions that you think

lock women in to this

future that is difficult to navigate

when they grow up?

>> So I think there are three main

decisions that women make throughout

their 20s that that can either set them

up

well or cause them to struggle more

later. Um the first one is professional.

So, I've always been a very big

proponent of finding and choosing a

profession and a major in school, let's

say, that works well with the kind of

life you want to have down the line. So,

you have to really um think ahead

and play the long game when you're

making these decisions. So instead of

getting a degree in some

major that isn't going to do anything

for you, you're not going to make any

money from it. Find something practical

and some not just that pays a decent

wage, but also that can be worked around

how you see your life in your 30s and

40s. So in other words, I mean to to

simplify this, it's rather than putting

career at the center of your life and

trying to fit men and marriage and

motherhood in around that, I want them

to do the reverse.

>> I want them to put family first and make

these decisions uh orbit around that.

And that begins with the kind of career

that you can a move in and out of more

easily, ones that can be done more maybe

part-time or from home, ones that um

give you control. um you own something,

you know, like you could start a

business later. Just basically

flexibility so that when you're older

and your priorities do shift, which for

most women they do, you have options.

What do

>> you say to the women that go, "Why

should I have to give that up?

>> I don't want to have to give that up. I

don't why why should I have to why

should I have to sacrifice and build my

career around family life? I should my

>> There's no should, but you will want you

will very likely want to." And if you

set yourself up the way you're doing it,

you'll have no options. If you do it the

other way, you'll at least have the

option because what you're going to feel

like is important at 32 is going to be

very different from what you feel like

at 22. You just don't even realize how

you're going to change.

>> I think that's one of the challenges

with this, right? That you're saying uh

women who are not thinking about family

literally don't even have it on their

bingo card.

>> Exactly.

>> You need to think about a thing you're

not planning for and currently don't

want. It takes an unbelievable amount of

counterculture pressure to be able to

say, "None of my friends think about

this. None of modern media is suggesting

that I do this. I don't even feel the

desire to do this. And actively, if I

got pregnant right now, I don't even

know what I'd do about it, but I should

start to construct a life that is

futureproofing me in order to do that."

It's a huge going into against the tide

moment.

>> It's so huge, Chris. I mean, it's a big

ask, right? Yeah. I mean, and

>> doesn't surprise me that women aren't

doing it.

>> No, cuz the running joke is, well, I'm

trying to get to you when you're 22

before you come to me at 32. But at 22,

you're not interested. But at 32, you're

like, "Help me. [laughter] Help me." And

I'm like, you know, it's so hard. I

mean, one of the hardest things about

coaching for me has been hearing these

women

and knowing that all of this stuff could

have been avoided if they had just been

told the truth. Have you considered in

school in the UK we have something

called scare them straight? I don't know

whether you have the same thing. It's

not gay conversion. It's

getting prison guards in to schools and

they explain how dangerous it is in

prison and how bad of a time it is. And

the whole point is to try and warn young

mostly boys I guess girls too of the

life of crime. And I went to a a very

very workingass school in a very very

working-ass town with lots of crime in

the UK. And um I remember this guy came

through and he had this sock which had

batteries in and he was explaining about

how the guys get into fights and they

use these sort of like maces in socks to

like you know get into scraps with and

he banged it on the table and I remember

I was so [ __ ] scared. I went to bed

that night like it really did for me. I

was like I cannot go to jail. That

sounds [ __ ] terrifying. Or they boil

the kettle and put loads of sugar in and

they make syrup and they throw it on

people and it burns them and stuff. It

was [ __ ] terrifying. I was like 12.

It was terrifying. Um have you

considered I do that's comparable. Have

you considered [laughter]

getting the women who are 32 to do an

intervention with the women that are 19

and about to choose their major in

college and being like hey why don't we

organize a local meetup and this it's

not quite penerational but it's actually

the important bit

>> uh the women who are facing this problem

or facing this challenge should I say

>> to go and have a a conversation

>> women that's a really good point no the

answer is I have not thought about that

but that's a really great idea

>> them straight you need batteries and a

don't forget Exactly. Y

>> well because it's so um I don't

it's really scary. I mean these women

are really really it's hurting their

marriages. Obviously it's not just

hurting them personally but if if for

example if you want to stay home but you

can't because you've set up this life um

>> it's going to hurt their marriage. So

then the the marriage is falling apart

the the family's falling apart. So this

has a downward effect that um somehow

I I think it's really clear for people

who are very marriage-minded young like

there are a lot of people who

>> I always knew I wanted to be a mom.

>> What's that?

>> I always knew I wanted to be a mom.

>> Yeah. Like they get it. I mean they just

like well yeah of course I you know and

that so I'm not so concerned with them

because they're going to set things up

sort of naturally. I mean, I did that

for example,

but

it's much harder today because as you

say, and that's exactly right. That's

why I'm a countercultural author. I

mean, everything I do is basically my

motto is if the culture says do it,

don't. And you will be successful. But

if you're following it, you're going to

struggle.

>> Well, the the average American adult is

likely to be divorced, has less than 1K

in the bank, and they're obese.

>> That's the average. That's the middle of

the bell curve. So following the path

that everybody else treads sounds like

uh outsourcing wisdom to the crowd, but

it's actually a reliable route to a life

that you probably don't want.

>> And what do you think separates the

people who get that from the ones who

don't?

>> You know,

>> not listening to what everybody else

says. So can you can you give me an

example of the

>> prototypical 32year-old person that

comes to you? What what career choice

have they made? What did they do in

their 20ies?

Why is that an issue now? Because a lot

of women might think, well, if I choose

a highowered career, that means that

I've earned more money, which means I

can step back from it.

>> So, I'd say the biggest issue there that

cannot be overlooked and one of the

reasons or one of the one of the ways I

think this began to go really downhill

is student debt, which is a massive

problem in America. And that messaging

came from people who are parents who

were like, "Doesn't matter what it

costs. This is I mean this is the most

important thing ever. So it doesn't

matter if you have to go into debt for

do to do it because you're just going to

pay it back, right?" Well, the problem

with that is by the time you're done

with all the schooling and you've gotten

the job and then you're starting to be

paid enough to even begin to pay it

back, all of a sudden you're around 30

years old

>> and then this other thing comes into

play. So that

and this leads into you know home

ownership all these all these uh

financial issues that were um a result

of decisions that were made again

because they're not playing the long

game because nobody taught them. Listen,

if you go into this much debt and then

you get married and maybe you want to

stay home, you're not going to feel like

you can because you owe all this money

and your money is not going to go as far

and you're not going to feel like you

can have a house and it just it just um

it's not fleshed out in the way that it

needs to be

>> for both young I mean I have a son and a

daughter and everything my husband and I

taught um was for both of them but of

course their trajectories are going to

be different because one's a boy and

one's a girl and that's Another thing

that's really taboo cuz nobody wants to

parent their children, opposite sex

children, differently because you're

supposed to be the same.

>> But the reality is that

girls and women's bodies do something

that a man's doesn't.

>> And that has to be taken into account

when mapping out a life in a way that's

unique to them.

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checkout. Okay, so first thing is

choosing your uh work work and education

career around building it around the

family.

>> Yes, flexibility basically instead of

these careers that are going to

literally take over your life. You're

working 24/7. you have no space in your

life to even find love or nurture love

or get married and have children and

you're not thinking about it and then

all of a sudden you're you're older and

you're saying where have all the good

men gone? I don't see them. It just it's

there's a there's just a downward uh

Yeah.

>> Is that the first?

>> Sorry.

>> You said there was three.

>> Oh yes, sorry. Um so the second one is

what did I say? Professional and then

relational.

So, this is another big one that's um

controversial, I guess. It used to be

that men or um moms and dads would tell

their daughters, you know, don't bring

home any man who u doesn't have a job,

right? Or isn't

um going somewhere, let's say. Um that's

of course not done anymore because

you're supposed to take care of

yourself. You don't you don't need a man

to take care of you.

So,

there are a lot of women who are getting

with men who are um who haven't found

their professional footing, let's say,

let's put it that way, [snorts]

>> or they're going to bank on the fact

that they will find it someday. And you

just basically don't want to marry a man

who hasn't found themselves

professionally because you again going

back to you're going to have fewer

options down the road because you in

fact do need a man on whom you can

depend financially if only for a short

period of time.

>> And why should that be controversial?

Here's something that's really

interesting. [snorts]

Um, they took a poll of Americans and

71% of American adults believe that it's

important

for a man to be able to bri provide for

his family. Guess how many think a woman

should be able to or should should do

it.

>> 50

>> 32.

>> Okay.

>> 71 to 32. Now, that says to me that we

know instinctively that women become

vulnerable

when they have a child and that they're

going to need support both emotional and

financial for x period of time. And that

that is in part why we need men to um

um embrace their providing and pro

providing and protecting um desire. Um,

and

women aren't sort of expected

to be the providers because do we really

want women to

get pregnant,

carry that baby for 9 months, give

birth, breastfeed, go through all of

that? And by the way, get back to work.

You should be working too while you're

doing that.

>> I mean, nobody really thinks that's a

good idea that you here cuz why not just

do that, too? you know, it's not it

isn't natural. And if you're

experiencing it, when you really do

experience it and you look at it, you're

like, "How could I ask her to go do this

right now?

>> She's she's she's she's very busy and

she's very tired and she's depleted and

she has an appendage hanging from her

that needs her." And so I think we know

that instinctually. And I think that's

the reason for that gap.

>> Yeah. It's it's an interesting one

because I wonder how many women are

allowing themselves to pick up the slack

of make choices where they thought well

I'm independent already. So financially

maybe I'm I'm going to pay a little bit

less attention to his future prospects

in this way. you know, the top quintile,

so the top 20% of female owners and the

bottom 40% of male owners are mating

with the woman as the primary bread

winner. So the top 20% of women are

mating down socioeconomically and the

bottom 40% of men are mating up

socioeconomically. That's a big chunk.

That's a lot.

>> That's a lot

>> that's going on. So yeah, I wonder how

many women are are basically picking up

the slack, which creates this

self-reinforcing loop of I need to work

harder in order to be able to provide me

the size and uh amount of freedom that I

think that I need in order to be able to

get a family off the ground without

realizing that it it kind of is a trap.

>> It's a trap. They're locking themselves

in. And then um I mean it's true that we

have a big problem with men not in the

world in the way they used to be and

producing. And that's that's a subject

of its own. But there's a lot that women

are doing to themselves. And again, I

don't fault them. I They were tutored to

do this. They were schooled to live this

life. It's just that that's why they

when they reach out to me, they're like,

"Why didn't why didn't anybody tell me

about this?"

>> It's hard. It's hard to understand, make

the argument, "You should be less

financially independent. In what world

does less financial independence make

sense?"

>> Because that's not the right framing.

The framing is um

what do you want? you know, why are we

here? What what's what's the most

important thing in life? What do you

really want in your life? What do you

want your life to look like? What do you

um foresee your daily life to be like

when you're 35, 40, 45? Like what kind

of relationship do you want with your

family? What what are your interests in

work? Like you have to sort of um pan

out and decide what's the most important

thing to you at the end of the day. And

I I believe and maybe this is just a

parenting thing cuz I do think a lot of

this is really about parenting. I do I

think that the culture can be the

culture but if parents were stronger in

their opposing messages that it would be

I feel like that's our best hope is

through parenting because it's very hard

to change the culture. Um is teaching

what really matters and why we're here.

And um is it really so that you can be

as rich as

you want or as um

well-known? I mean, are you is status

your goal or is meaning and your

relationships and family your goal? And

those, I hate to say it, are just

they're competing. They just they

compete with one another. And we don't

like that. We want to we want to create

a world where they can coexist in

extreme forms simultaneously. You know,

you can be all of this and you can still

have this all at the same time

>> as well and rich as possible whilst also

having the family that you've always

wanted.

>> And you made a comment on one of your

shows recently. What's that saying that

someone said? What what what you see in

private,

>> what you're praised for in public, you

pay for in private.

>> That is exactly what I'm talking about.

So, you go out and you do this thing,

but no one's talking about what really

goes on at home to allow that to happen

and how you're suffering.

>> Yeah. You can't I got to I got to bring

this up. I got to bring this up.

>> Okay.

>> Are you familiar with Emma Greed?

>> Do you know who she is?

>> No. [snorts]

>> Uh Emma Greed is the British Kardashian

whisperer, entrepreneur, who is the

co-founder and CEO of the Good American

clothing brand and a founding partner of

Skiims. But lately,

>> Ski,

>> she's been getting way more attention.

something else. How she parents her four

kids, ages 12, 10, and four, the twins.

And uh we got a clip that I want to show

you.

>> Well, and you're very honest about how

you view parenting. I have to ask you

about this. You did an interview with

the Wall Street Journal, and the

headline was the Kardashian whisperer

who says three hours with her kids is

enough. That's based on what you say in

your book. You call yourself a

three-hour maximum. That raised a lot of

eyebrows as you know. What did you mean

by that? A three-hour maximum.

>> Well, what I meant by it was exactly

what I said and I really don't want to

backpedal. You know, the first thing

that I thought when I saw that headline

was like, wow, that would never have

been written about a man. Nobody would

ever have written that about my husband.

But the important thing is that I bring

a level of honesty to everything I say

because when you work Monday through

Friday, the idea that you've got this

entirely free weekend to just be with

your kids and orientate your whole world

around your children is just not a

reality. I have errands to run. I have

things to do. And because we're in a

social media culture that says, you

know, you have to arrange every pre-day

and count every macro and decide what

your kids can and can't eat and make

sure that they're constantly

entertained. It's impossible. We're

setting women up for a failure and we're

holding women to impossible standards.

So, what I meant when I said I was a

three-hour mom is that I probably spend

like three hours with my kids doing the

things that they want to do,

entertaining them, being down on the

floor and playing with them. then I have

other things to do. And that's just the

truth. It's just a reality. And I think

a lot of parents feel exactly the same

that you're depleted after a week at

work. And actually, you only have a

couple of hours. But isn't that good

enough? I think it is.

>> What do you think of that?

>> So much to say about that. I don't know

where to begin. [laughter]

>> [gasps]

>> Um,

back when I wrote my first book and that

was 25 years ago, I you can't even

believe how many of these things this of

course we didn't have uh social media

but it was all uh print but the amount

of stuff that I read like that from um

working hardcore working mothers who

basically wanted to make the argument

that you know uh good enough good enough

mothering just give them a box of cereal

they'll be fine for dinner if you if

you're too tired to cook that kind of

thing. Um

my I have a theory that this

overparenting craze of the last what do

you think that is 15 years um came about

as a result sort of after women had

started mothers excuse me had got

started going into the work and mass and

finding out for themselves that wow um

okay this doesn't work well with um

especially with littles but fulltime

with motherhood with young children and

they had to cut corners. And so, um,

my [clears throat] argument's always

been that those are two full-time jobs.

In the same way, you can't be a doctor

and a lawyer simultaneously. Nobody

would suggest you do that. It's no

different from full-time motherhood and

whatever she's doing or people are doing

that are full-time. They clash. They

inherently clash. And something's got to

give and you have to make choices. So,

um, the there's a couple different

elements to that. On the one hand, I

want to say, you know, when you are home

full-time, let's say, with your

children, it is true that you would only

spend a couple of hours, as she puts it,

down on the floor with them doing

something of, you know, that they want

to do really intensely. It's not like

stay-at-home moms are any different from

her in that regard. The difference is

that the rest of the hours of the day,

you are physically present and

available. So, as an athome mom, you're

not supposed to be on the floor 12 hours

a day engaged with your child as if

they're the center of the universe.

That's not motherhood. But

it got skewed when when this

transformation happened when moms were

trying to mother with leftover time and

feeling intense about it, like, "Oh my

gosh, I haven't been here all day, so I

have to really make this one or two

hours count." And then they came up with

a conclusion about, well, it's not

supposed to be this way. Let's just say

screw that.

>> Yeah.

>> But that's a misreading of really what

it it's not that you can be absent 10

hours and then come home for 2 hours and

be intense. It's when you're there and

you are present, there's so much going

on um that is outside of the one-on-one

care. I don't know if I'm making this

very clear, but

>> Well, it seems like what Emma would say

is she's making it work. She's doing

three hours and the kids are they're at

least

>> Yeah. I mean,

>> well, what do you think's happening to

kids that are getting three hours with

mom over a weekend

>> or three hours on a Saturday and three

hours on a Sunday?

>> Well, it's more about what's happening

the rest of the time. It's not I mean,

those three hours might be great, but

what's happening the rest of the the

hours of the week? Um, you can't fill in

for um an absence with a couple of hours

a week with small children. It just

doesn't work that way. That whole

quality time thing is bogus. That's not

real. Children need tons and tons and

tons of quantity time, not quality time.

It's just not something you can just do

in leftover time. I don't know how else

to say it.

>> Why do you think Emma believes that you

can then? Because she's

>> Because she needs to otherwise her life

wouldn't work if she actually

entertained something else. So, if I

don't know how I don't know her and I

don't know how many children she has and

I don't know how young they are. Oh, you

said four, right?

>> 12, eight, and two fouryear-olds. Okay.

But it doesn't sound like this is a new

uh revelation to her. It seems like this

is her approach to this has been her

approach to parenting for a while. She's

been the CEO of SKIMS and she's got all

>> stuff do it all the time. But

>> she's got a lot of daycare help, a lot

of handler

child childare

>> assistance. For example, if we were to

present to I don't want to talk about

her per se, but just somebody like that,

present to her information about the

early years, like you spent several

hours with Erica Kasar talking about

what goes on in the early years and

attachment and all of that. A person who

has a different philosophy about it will

not be able to take that information in

because in order to do that, you'd have

to completely rearrange your life and

look at it very differently. Well, what

you're suggesting here is that in order

for this kind of life to work where

there's only 3 hours with kids, there

are some

unseen but

>> very powerful attachment attachment

costs that are going to happen to the

kids.

>> 100%

>> that there's damage that's being done,

but it's it's just not visible. But the

damage that would be done if you had to

leave work would be immediately visible.

>> Say that last second one. The damage if

you would

>> if you had to leave work. So, if you had

to, there are no solutions. There's only

trade-offs. Right. And the trade-off

that you have to make here is in order

for me to work as much as I want to

work.

>> Yes.

>> The kids don't get to see me, but

they're fine. Yeah.

>> Is the assumption.

>> Erica's work is saying, "No, they're

not, and this isn't good for them,

>> right?"

>> But that price gets pushed down the

line. You know, the attachment issues

only show up when they're trying to date

in their 20s and 30s.

>> There you go. That's it. However, the

alternative, the other trade-off, which

would be I need to leave work, that's

paid immediately. Yes.

>> That gets paid right now.

>> Yep.

>> So, it's

>> I mean, we're not even allowed to talk

about this. Let's let's be honest. So, I

mean, not only not only does do we not

address it until years later when

they're in their relation relationship,

we don't even talk about the early

years. We don't talk about um daycare

being bad, for example. So,

>> I keep on putting my phone in. It's

fine.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly.

So anyway, I don't know how we got on to

to her what I said per se, but um

>> you were just talking about this like

cultural pressure on women

>> to produce in the same way as men do.

Like what does the cultural pressure on

women to produce in the same way as men

>> do to women?

>> Yeah. So

I don't think at the beginning it feels

necessarily negative. I think when when

men and women are young, their lives do

look remarkably similar. You go to

school, you get a job, you're working,

you're not married with kids yet, so you

kind of do look interchangeable, right?

You're doing the same things and

everybody's fine.

My argument is that it's really not

until you start to either think about

children or then really when you have

them that our differences become glaring

between women and men. So for example,

when a woman goes through all of that

that physically in

being pregnant, giving birth,

breastfeeding, and being at home in

those early months or years nurturing.

I mean, when she has a baby, her first

inclination is not to financially

provide for the baby. Your first

inclination as a woman is to take care

of him or her and to nurture him or her.

That is natural to you. Um, your your

desire to work for pay, at least in that

moment, for those, let's just say,

months, ramps down.

Generally speaking, when a man becomes a

father, his desire to provide ramps up.

And I my theory about that is really

that I feel like because there's such a

difference in men and women as mothers

and fathers in those early years, it's

so obvious and natural that a baby needs

his mother because you're physically

attached and there's so much that she's

doing physically. And I feel like a

father is sort of he's there more to

support her and to get things done so

that she can be with her baby, but he

doesn't really feel needed in the same

way. And so his response to, "Oh my

gosh, now I have a baby. I've got to is

immediately to to ramp up his desire to

provide." That's that's my theory about

it. So when you have a child, it really

just makes our differences glare and

they just continue. like it just

continues. There's so many things that

go on after the baby comes where

marriages start to strain because they

are operating in sameness mode, equality

mode, 50/50, tit for tat, you do this, I

do this, how much did you and it's a

it's a [ __ ] show, honestly. It really

is. You cannot go into marriage with

that mentality or you're going to be

really unhappy.

And so anyway, going back to your

question is I just feel like because

those differences between us don't show

up until later, I think women don't

realize until later how much they've

been misled and how much it is hurting

them until they're in the throws of it.

>> What are you learning about breadwinning

lums?

>> This is a really difficult subject for

people to talk about. Um, again going

back to what we're saying is that we're

supposed to be the same, so there

shouldn't be any difference. But the

truth of the matter is for most women,

and not all, there are some women who

are happy and fine in, you know, living

a more traditional man's life for life.

But for most women, um, it has been my

experience doing this for so many years

that eventually, no matter how

happy they may be in their career at

first or, you know, being independent,

earning money, whatever, if they're

going to be a wife and mother, and if

you're not, that might be a separate

conversation.

Ultimately that

pressure to produce becomes very taxing

once you've become a wife and mother

especially a mother really a mother

[snorts]

and

the more and more you are the primary

bread winner and oftenimes this happens

not necessarily consciously but as the

relationship grows and if you are

becoming the primary provider or the

main provider and I mean if there's a

real gap here, especially if you haven't

an stay at home dad. Let's say that's

almost a an extreme version of that. Um,

they become resentful

and

it's not I really it's it's not their

fault. It's just it's not natural for

them to be doing both of those things in

my opinion simultaneously

unscathed.

Meaning you can, but you're wearing

yourself into the ground. And this is

why we have the mental health crisis we

do. This is why we're having marriages

as strained as we do because you're

asking them to do too much. You cannot

do both of these things simultaneously

without breaking down. It's because

they're not meant to be done

simultaneously. Um, but the only way you

could understand that is if you

acknowledge the incredible amount of

work that goes into raising a baby to

become a healthy adult. If you dismiss

that or think that's just something you

can do on the side, you're not really

this isn't going to register for you.

you know, you have and that goes back to

the whole

um career at the center and thinking you

can just these things can orbit around

it and it just it just doesn't work that

way. A man who's providing is in the

main role, he's not going to be taxed by

that. He's going to be emboldened by

that. He wants to do that. He's a

provider and a protector. It's in his

DNA and it's unique to him and it's

special for him, you know, and we've

taken that away from it, I think. In

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You've got a line. Men want their wives

happy. And if they believe she wants to

provide, they instinctively step back.

After all, if she's bringing in enough,

why work harder or work more?

>> So, I I truly believe that men need an

incentive to work hard. They need

something to work toward. Not just work

for work's sake, but to work towards

something, a reward, um, accolades, um,

you know, that to to to produce to be

useful. And, you know, when you have an

entire

generation of women saying, you know, I

can have the babies, raise them, and I

can take care of them financially, too.

Where are they going to go? What's going

to happen to men?

>> I mean, it's happening now. They're

pulling back. They're pulling back

because they're saying, "Well, I guess

nobody needs me." So, you know, it would

be a lovely world if we could say,

"Well, they should just do it for

themselves, you know, the sake of

themselves." But I just don't think men

do that. I think they need incentive.

And um the greatest incentive incentive

of all has always been providing for a

family. And I think it's just been

disastrous for them honestly

>> that they've been told we don't need

that anymore.

>> Yeah, there's some interesting paradoxes

here that um

deadbe dads, fathers that don't

contribute much u almost universally

even by feminists seen as not good. It

would be better if you were contributing

more especially financially and making

it easier on the wife. But also, it's

put forward that women shouldn't need to

rely on their male partner and that they

shouldn't really be looking for their

financial stability that much at all

because I have my thing going on and you

can be a stay at home dad.

>> Yeah.

>> And similarly,

there's a lot of complaints around the

lack of maternity leave in the US, which

I think is [ __ ] barbaric. Like, it's

insane. And also that your career is the

most important thing that you'll ever do

in your life. And that if you are not

working as a mom. I have a friend who um

had a bunch of kids. Then her and her

husband stopped and she was working

while they had the first ones. And then

the most recent one, she decided to be a

stay at home mom. And she went to a play

date with her three-year-old, the newest

one, and a bunch of other moms. And they

were all working moms.

>> And one of the moms turned to her and

she said, "You know what? I I really

wish that I'd known you while you were

working, you know, while you had a lot

going on.

And she said it felt like she's never

felt that hurt by another comment from

someone. So, I'm glad you brought that

up because that

[sighs]

I mean, you've really hit

a nugget there of what makes so many

women today feel that they can't succumb

to their inherent desire to just be a

mom. And I say just on purpose, not

because in their minds, it's just being

a mom. And I I'm kind of been here all

>> to not need to be anything more than a

mother.

>> Yes. And I've been like, this is the

whole thing. This is it. This is why

we're on the planet. This is to build

relationships, build a family. There is

work that goes into this. It doesn't

kids don't just come about while you go

do your thing, you know. It's it's work.

And because it's not work that is paid,

um we as we as we are today as a country

that is materialistic, individualistic,

all about stuff, status,

>> we don't value it anymore. We don't

value anything that doesn't um have a

nice giant paycheck associated with

>> it doesn't generate economic return.

Yeah.

>> And this is new. I mean really this is

new like this is new in the la I don't

know I want to say I want to say quarter

of a century. I've been writing about

this since for about 25 years. Um and it

it's been interesting to see where

things were with this subject then and

now. It's just gotten worse and worse

and worse in terms of our val values and

this materialism that we live in today.

And it's so twisted that when you start

with that base of money, money, money,

status, career, whatever, you're never

going to be successful in your

professional life and in excuse me, in

your personal life and in your

relationships because your focus is on

the wrong thing. I mean, this is true

for men and women by the way.

>> Your your position here, it's probably

worth restating it if it's not obvious.

What you're saying is that your family

life will be more important and more

rewarding to you than your professional

life. Because if you don't have that

frame or if you're unaware of that

frame, none of this makes sense.

>> Exactly. That's exactly what

>> the only other caveat here, which we

need to get on to at some point, is

well, there are material constraints. I

need to have food on the table. I need

to have a roof over my head. So, it's

not just I can live my life by my values

exclusively. There are also genuine

material Yeah. Exactly.

>> Right. We got to talk about things

around it that will

>> But your point here is

>> start with that base. Correct. Start

with that value at the at the nucleus.

>> In your in your experience, how many

women have you worked with?

>> I don't know. I mean, I I've been

coaching for about 5 years. Um, and then

the women I heard from before that were

all from my book. So, thousands

of thousands,

>> not one-on-one with thousands, but I've

heard from thousands over the years for

sure.

>> Yeah. Um, in your experience,

how true is it that women realized that

their career was the most important

thing and that the family thing didn't

really matter that much?

>> Zero.

>> I mean, there's a selection effect.

They're coming to you for a reason,

right? The sort of things that you're

writing about, the

>> independent lean-in ladies are maybe not

going to gravitate to your content. But

>> I look, nobody is telling women and I

get in trouble all the time for this.

I've never and nobody that's ever been

on this show has told women to have kids

that they don't want to have. No one

that want that doesn't want to have kids

should have kids. In fact, I'm actively

opposed to women who don't want to have

kids having kids. I think it's a

horrible idea. I think it's a horrible

horrible horrible horrible idea.

However,

given that most women end up having kids

in the end and

>> 86% by the time the end of their

maternal um

>> but don't forget that

>> women who get to the end of their

biological clock, they hit menopause and

can't have kids but didn't have kids.

>> Yes.

>> 80% of them didn't intend to be

childless. Four out of five. Four out of

five women who don't have children after

menopause didn't intend

>> which shows you how small.

>> Correct. So 10% of women can't

>> right

>> very unfortunate lots and lots of pain

associated with that biologically around

about 10% of women

>> end up realizing that they didn't want

to don't want to that is a group as well

>> 80% of women

>> who don't have kids

>> didn't do that by choice didn't intend

to

>> they're not childless by choice is

correct yes yeah

>> and uh

>> listen instinct is strong we are

I mean we are governed by our instincts

whether we we don't like to talk about

it that way because we want social we

want to set up a social system the way

we want it to be but it's going against

what our desires are and that and to me

one of my um one of my lines is that

societal uh progress does not undo

biological leanings

>> I mean we are what we are we have to

work with you know I say move with the

biological tide not against it the more

you move with it the smoother your life

will be every time you're trying to move

against it you're fighting

>> you know I don't want it to be this way.

I don't want it to be this way. It

shouldn't be this way. And then you're

just miserable all the time.

>> Do you think mothers are denigrated in

modern society? Like are women punished

socially for wanting traditional lives?

>> Um

I don't know if I'd say punished.

I just think that they feel

that that's the wrong choice to make.

That's what I think. that they just

cannot shout it from the rooftops,

cannot openly talk about it or plan for

it. They have to sort of

>> You don't think women are seen as

secondass citizens?

>> Um,

when they when they become mothers

versus when they stay working.

>> To me, it seems it doesn't seem like

there's that much. The pedestalization

of mothers seems to come from a

counterculture standpoint or a tradife

>> conservative talking point like some

Christian white picket fence thing. I to

me I don't see that much prom motherhood

content but

>> Oh no yes. No I agree with that.

>> The immigr lady was on Oprah and she did

two million plays a couple of weeks ago.

>> If you're asking me whether that whether

the nonm motherhood women I don't know

how you want to define it gets more play

in society. Well yeah that's like 9010.

But my art but you know it's always

that's mostly because the women who are

wives and mothers and even happy doing

it are quietly living their lives.

They're not in front. They're not

sitting here, right? So, you're not

going to hear from them. There's

millions of them. It's just they're not

represented because the people who are

represented in the media, not so much

alternative media, but all these years

in mainstream media, are the minority of

women for whom family is not the focus.

That's really important to understand

because prior to YouTube and and social

media and all of that, all of the

information was coming from this small

group of women who do not represent the

average woman. And that's why it's

skewed and makes the masses of women

feel like there's something wrong with

them when in fact they're the norm and

those women you're hearing from are not.

>> Oh, they're the most influential.

>> The most influ Exactly.

>> Yeah. You say who you marry and how that

marriage fares will have more of an

effect on your happiness and well-being

than anything else that you do.

>> Do you think women are aware of this?

>> No, I don't I don't. Where would they

hear it? [laughter] Who's saying it to

them? I mean, you're not allowed to talk

about it in when when really when would

they hear it if their parents aren't

passing that on? Seriously, if their

parents are not passing that on

[sighs and gasps]

or some family member, they're not going

to hear it in the media. They're not

going to hear it at school. They're not

going to hear it on the Where would you

hear it?

>> Well, the Disney movies wouldn't be

pushing that kind of a meme as much as

it would have done in the '9s, maybe the

2000s.

>> I mean, look, the reality is you can you

can change your career, you can change a

job. People do it all the time. You can

shift your interests and all of that,

but who you marry, if you have children

with them, you are tied with them until

you die. If you have children, now

obviously there's divorce, but a who

wants to promote that? That's not

really, you know, any what anybody wants

to do. And B, you're you've created a

family and so you are you are linked.

So

it has more impact on what direction

your life takes than your than a career

choice because again you can change a

career. You can't just change out a

husband or a wife. I mean people try all

the time but doesn't really work very

well. Second marriages are notoriously

more flimsy than first, third even more

so. Fourth even more. I mean just go

down the line. It's not it's not really

an answer for most people. So, we need

to give it, in my opinion, the

weight that it deserves and the

attention that it deserves. And we're so

afraid to talk about it.

And that says so much about where we are

today in what we value that we can't

even openly talk about what's great

about marriage.

>> I mean,

>> if it's the most important decision that

someone's going to make is

>> if they want to make it. I'm not telling

you you have to make it. Yeah. If you

don't want to get married, don't get

married. But most people do. Most people

do get married eventually.

>> If it's if it's as important as it is

for the people who want to do it.

>> Yeah.

>> Isn't that strong evidence against

rushing into a marriage?

>> Um, no. I would say well I don't think

anybody should rush into marriage for

sure but I I would say it's an argument

for early education about marriage

and early education about um

gosh there's so much education that

young people don't get when it comes to

this subject because again we're not

allowed to talk about it. Um, take the

fertility crisis. You know, we don't

we're not allowed to talk about the fact

that even

>> you're my friends. Yeah.

>> That you have a biological clock. I

mean, why should I not talk about that?

It's I can't change it. I didn't make

it. It just is, right? So, let's work

with it. Let's create a life that works

with what is, not with what we wish

could be.

>> And so, that's a taboo subject to say

that. You can't tell that to women, you

know. So, okay. Well, the reality is a

40-year-old man can marry a 30-year-old

women's woman and still have a family.

And it's not going to be the same if a

woman's 40 and looking for a husband.

And let's talk about that.

>> Even though it's painful to talk about

or whatever.

>> What does dating with purpose look like

for modern women? How do you advise

women to date? Well,

>> you know, things have gotten so bad on

that in that department, like so much so

over the last 10 or 15 years, really 10

years, that I I'm almost to the point

where I'm like, just just get it out on

the table in the first three dates,

[laughter]

>> get what get on the table,

>> like what you want and what you're

looking for. And you know it it I have

this theory that you just you weed out

the people who aren't on the same page

as you when you just get it on the table

for example. Okay.

>> Yeah. We're in a date. We're in a date.

>> Okay. I mean the first date. No. The

first date is just who are you? Hello.

Where are you from? What do you like?

>> Okay. It's our third date.

>> Perfect.

Presumably if you're on a third date

with someone you are getting into

deeper conversations than on the first,

right? just by nature of you're talking

more so more things are going to come

up. You're going to talk about your

background presumably and you're going

to talk about your history and what you

want. I think I guess I did. And

naturally in the conversation, you're

going to kind of learn whether or not

the person is family focused or career

focused or wanting something temporary

or wanting something permanent. I feel

like by the third date you would know

that. Do you disagree?

>> No. And so why there's so much

pretending going on, so much fear.

>> So imagine imagine for a second that

we're on the date. Let's role play this.

And you're going to say you're going to

ask me some of the questions that you

think are important for for women to

ask.

>> You didn't prepare me for this, Chris.

>> I [laughter]

look, you you've taught enough women how

to do it. Put your cards on the table.

>> I mean,

tell me about your you know, if it

didn't come up naturally, tell me about

your childhood. Tell me about your

parents. Are your parents married? Let's

have the conversation. Are your parents

married?

>> Why is that? Why is that important?

>> Because it's going to skew how you think

about marriage probably.

>> Okay.

>> Do you have a good impression of it? Do

you have a bad impression of it?

>> All right. What else?

>> Um

what um and then about your work? What

what tell me about your work? You know,

um where are you with things? What I

mean it sounds this sounds more like a

um business meeting, but I I it would be

more natural than that. You'd be talking

about what you like and what you do for

work

>> and that would tell me where you are in

the scheme of things. And if you asked

me, depending on where I was, that would

tell you a lot about me. Um,

uh, let's see, you go all the way back

to my 20s, I'll just tell you with my

husband, I was a teacher. Um, and so he

knew right away that I love children.

>> He knew that, well, I was married

before, so that really that there's a

great example of just something that

comes up naturally. So, oh well, what

happened? Well, and then you get into

different values and priorities, which

is what happened with my first marriage,

and he wanted different things. Oh,

well, well, then what do you want? Well,

I want to have children. I want to be

home with them. That ding ding ding ding

ding ding is going to tell the guy,

"Well, okay, she wants to be home with

him. I guess we're going to live on a

one-inccome family if I stick with this

girl."

>> What's wrong with that? I mean, it it

just gets it out, you know? And if you

don't want it,

>> great.

>> So, you should be asking for the next

person. You should be asking things

like, "Do you want kids? How many?"

>> Yes. But it doesn't necessarily have to

be so directed. Like I said, it would

come up naturally like like I just

explained. And he knew just from what I

said without having to say, "Do you want

that?" You know,

>> the the the the audience are charismatic

autists. So, they understand they they

understand how to get something across

in a normal way whilst being highly

[laughter] abnormal internally.

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a checkout. I I I think you're right. I

think that being intentional with with

dating is one of the most important

things because I think about basically

the way that the human attachment system

works like not anxious avoidance secure

but the human romantic attachment system

is basically one big

psychedelic trip that hopes that you can

attach yourself to this person

sufficiently quickly while you're in the

drug state

>> before you get to the my brain's come

back online stay and I wonder how many

people I started hanging out with this

person and and and you know they were

nice and hot and I kind of got a bit

obsessed with them. They used to text me

all the time and then you know we just

started hanging out a bit more and then

we we didn't really move in but we

started staying over at each other's

houses a bit and then we decided well we

might as well move in and that was you

like 9 months or something and then and

then we got Golden Retriever cuz we

thought for Christmas he'd get me a

golden retriever. I've always wanted a

golden retriever and then and then yeah

we we just sort of stayed together and

things kind of became comfortable and

you know we settled into and then we

just thought well like you get engaged

that's what people do you get engaged

and then we you know the mar wedding

came along and things were okay and then

you we had the first kitten before you

know it you've fallen backward into a

relationship

and a cohabiting situation and a dog and

an engagement and a marriage and kids

that at no point you actually chose

>> 100%

>> you didn't choose choose this thing.

This person was around you. They were in

your proximity while you didn't have any

serotonin in your body.

>> That's exactly right. And that is why I

have been against cohabitation from day

one. And I was saying it from a in a

different way cuz people it wasn't from

a religious perspective or a sex pers

perspective. It was it doesn't it it

doesn't serve you well to do that for

exactly the reason that you described.

People often slide into marriage as a

result of everything you just described

as opposed to making a conscious well

thoughtout decision in advance.

>> This is who I want to marry. And you

need objectivity for that. You need

separation. You need to go home to your

own space.

>> Advice people to do instead like

>> not live together. Date and live in

their own. No. I mean once they're

engaged

>> that's fine. Once you've made it's about

making the decision. You make the

decision from a distance from living in

your own space.

>> Will you marry me? Yes. M and then go

about your business. But if you do it

before, it's like you said, it's all

skewed because, well, you're here, we're

in it now.

>> You're lapping as a married couple

without having actually got the wedding

done, which makes you think that the

wedding becomes more of a formality than

a decision.

>> It's just a natural progress. We're

already kind of married, right? We're

already doing it. I mean, how many

people have gone, well, you know, we're

already kind of doing it. That's a

really I've never even thought about it

that way. that the cohabitation effect,

which you're probably familiar with,

>> that gets explained away by a variety of

different reasons, but

I've never thought about it as keeping

you and your partner separate until you

make the decision to be engaged. Because

what lots of people would say is, "I'm

not going to marry someone that I don't

know if I can live with them."

>> No, but it doesn't

>> But the difference is you can call off

an engagement way easier than you can

call off a marriage. And if you're

saying the decision that you make is

actually the engagement one, right? the

once you're on that set of train tracks,

the marriage sort of comes along for the

ride, but it is a reversible decision.

Significantly more reversible than

getting

>> the [ __ ] family together and all of

the things and then you've done this big

ceremony and

>> um

>> if you say you shouldn't make the

decision of the engagement, you

shouldn't make the proposal until you're

sure that this is a good thing to do.

>> And the best way to be sure is to have

most of your faculties and logic intact,

which means that keeping a little bit of

distance is a good idea. And I'm sure

that people are going to spend weeks

together traveling and and going on

holiday and staying together and stuff,

but permanent locked in living together

>> kind of causes you to fall backwards

into marriage without thinking about it

because it's a natural progression. But

then you have still this window

>> of a testing ground of okay, can we live

together? Like can we lock this in from

>> uh engagement up until marriage? That

means you're not getting

uh slipstreamed. You're not secretly

getting the marriage thing pushed along,

but it does allow you to go,

>> "Oh, [ __ ] hell." Like, I didn't

realize that this was going to be such a

big deal and maybe this is something

that

>> you mean during that engagement period.

>> Yes, exactly.

>> Um

>> I wonder what the stats are on if there

are any stats on Well, maybe that's

maybe that's what you're looking up. I

with you if you called off the

engagement. Is that what you want to

know? Yes. Once once you're engaged in

living together.

>> Yeah. My point my point is just living

together.

>> Yeah. My point is just Yeah. engaged in

living together. If you don't live

together until you're engaged, it means

that you're not forced to get engaged

because you're living together.

>> And if you live together during the

engagement, it still is a moderately

reversible door. If you go, "Fuck, this

does not work." Because most people's

and mine mine I'm unmarried, right? My

my concern would be what you're telling

me that I'm going to not just get

engaged but get married to this person

without knowing if we could live

together. That seems like a large risk.

What if our lifestyles are incompatible?

What if we

>> give you an example because you know

there were eons when people didn't live

together until they got married, right?

More so than there were people who did

>> and they stayed married more than we do

today.

>> That's true.

>> They did.

>> I'm not convinced that that's

necessarily because of this reason.

>> No. No. No. No. No, no, no. But I'm

saying my question would be what do you

think they did? What what do you think

it was horrible? What what do you

imagine would it would be like if you

moved in after you were married as

opposed to living together? What what

are the kinds of things?

>> Because isn't that is doesn't marriage

require you to figure that out anyway

for the rest of your life?

>> To a degree it does. I I I think what

people have, and I'm probably speaking

for an entire generation of young men

and women who

have an ambient fear around there being

some fundamental incompatibility that I

have with my partner, which is only

revealed once we live together. I don't

think that's unreasonable to think that

it might be the case, that there might

be something in there. But I understand

what you mean, which is if you've spent

enough time together, you've stayed over

each other's houses, you've spent weeks

and maybe even months traveling together

and doing things and stuff like that,

you know what their sleep pattern?

>> Yeah. So, what do you mean by like what

are the things you learn? Like you mean

dishes? I mean, stupid things. I mean,

>> I mean, yeah. Your level of tolerance

for being together for very extended,

very compacted periods of time. I mean,

how many uh marriages did we see break

up during co

>> because people were spending an amount

of time together that they hadn't been

exposed to previously?

>> And I have to assume that maybe the same

thing might be true if someone had never

lived with their partner.

>> Do you think there's a person with whom

that wouldn't happen if you were

together all the time that you would

love to be with 24/7? Do you think

there's a person that you that would not

be an issue?

>> It's a shame that I'm not gay cuz I've

got a couple of friends that I'd happily

do that with. [laughter] Um, I I've hung

out with a lot of friends for a long

time without any like distraction and

it's been [ __ ] sick. Uh, it's just

the like the penis thing gets to me.

But, um,

>> you know what I mean? I'm saying, in

other words, you said you wouldn't know

whether or not you could live

>> with the person,

>> the level of compatibility.

>> Um,

>> yeah. And I'm trying to understand why

that wouldn't have been ironed out with

everything you described, staying over

each other's houses.

>> You're right. You're right. I think it's

uh

>> if it's about being with them all the

time because it's so much space

together. Well, that's going to be the

case with whoever you marry, right? So,

is there a person whom you could spend

that much time with and it wouldn't

matter at all or is that just human

nature?

>> Yeah. Again, it's rub up against each

other.

>> It's trying to avoid some of the huge

issues. [snorts] Anyway, uh just this

cohabitation effect, uh divorce rate for

people who cohabited before marriage

31.4%, divorce rate for people who did

not cohabitate before marriage 25.9%.

Earlier research often found premarital

cohabitation associated with roughly 20

to 50% higher divorce risk depending on

controls and demographics. Um the

sliding versus deciding that's exactly

what you're talking about.

>> So the unclear commitment is a really

and inertia is the same thing.

>> Yeah. Um unclear commitment is a really

interesting one which is

uh one of the explanations for the

cohabitation effect is that

what both partners are doing is saying

you're good enough for right now.

>> You're good enough for us to live

together but you're not good enough for

me to get engaged to at the moment. So

it is a an it's an amount of commitment

but it's not the commitment right that

everybody's looking for. Um, but

obviously there's a big one of the

criticisms of the cohabitation effect is

that it's a selection effect. Like

people who don't live together before

they get married includes a whole host

of very religious communities who've got

that's true much most stringent rules

around divorce. They've got a culture

that supports marriage in a different

sort of a way. The kinds of people who

wouldn't live together before also are

maybe likely to be virgins or less

socioexual or there is something about

that kind of person. But I also think

that it's too big of a difference

between 20 and 50% increases in divorce

because of cohabitation. There has to be

something about cohabiting which causes

that impact.

>> And of course the studies have been done

as you I mean

>> um

the sliding versus deciding is not

small. That's a huge piece of it. I mean

you

>> I've never heard that before. It's such

a cool

>> slide you slide into it because you're

already there. And the reasons why you