if you've got a boring voice you can do

something about it it's possible

Julian treasure the auth of how to be

heard your Ted Talk is the sixth most

listened to Ted Talk of all time I've

assembled seven deadly sins of speaking

here they are it's the most common

mistake I see in business in

relationships you're speaking to teams

you're trying to inspire people you're

trying to lead people build

relationships with people this is part

of your life and you've never paid any

attention to it we teach reading and

writing in schools we don't teach

speaking which is absolutely nuts we're

much Keener to be heard than we are to

listen to others what's the biggest

complaint in relationships he or she

never listens to me our happiness and

our well-being are fundamentally

affected by whether we master the skills

of speaking and listening

how does one speak with authority in

work in life in my relationships what

advice can you give me people often say

to me I don't feel confident how can I

engage with people and the answer is

before this conversation starts I've got

a favor to ask from you 74 of people

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further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this

is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's

listening but if you are then please

keep this yourself

foreign

[Music]

you've had a pretty marvelous unique

career and it's twisted and turned and

twisted and turned in a really

fascinating way one in which I I don't

imagine anyone could have really

predicted ahead of time

what do I need to know about

you and your earliest years to inform

the person listening to this of any

context that ended up steering where you

would end up in your life

I think I mean I was very fortunate to

have a good education

which I didn't use to the max perhaps

but I appreciated enormously

but I think from

a young age I grew up

with a confidence that all will be well

and that's I suppose you could sum that

up in the word faith

not talking about religious Faith

necessarily

although I've been in and out of that in

my life

but just a conviction that all will be

well

and I think that's an important thing

for I mean for entrepreneurs

who tend to be the people who'll take

the jump and say oh I think I'll get to

the other side whereas a lot of people

would be standing there going you know

what you do that

so when things have come along

I've been

comfortable to go with the flow to to

say well let's see where this goes I'm

sure it'll be interesting

I read that your Ted Talk

um on speaking and being heard I think

that's the one

um is the sixth or seventh most listened

to Ted Talk of all time which is

staggering because there are thousands

and thousands of TED Talks I've done one

nobody listened

um and

so I was when I saw that I thought how

much did that moment change your life if

at all

um and can you just tell me about the

decision to do that talk that day and

how it came about

well it was the fifth actually of five

talks I did

um in a row five separate teds

uh Ted Global was in the UK and Oxford

originally

and the first one I did was about how

sound effects is the four effects of

sound it's called

uh looking back at that that's a very

younger Slimmer me on stage it's quite

funny looking at it now

um nobody's ever used sound before in a

TED talk like that so they were quite

excited about it

and then I got to do the next one was

about sound and health and then one

about listening which is you know as you

know kind of a religion for me and then

one about sound and the environment the

way Architects designed for the eyes not

the ears so I had those four

TED talks to kind of practice I suppose

and become a master I suppose of doing a

TED Talk I mean it's it's a discipline

you have 12 minutes or maybe even I

think my first one was six

you can't gabble you can't cut turn cram

too much in you have to be very clear

about the big idea the why would people

be interested in this the what's the

journey I'm taking people on where am I

moving them from to

and

you need to know how to do it how to

stand on that stage on that red dot and

project it with confidence and clarity

and engage people in coming on that

Journey with you so I suppose by the

time I did that fifth one

I was more experts think in giving Ted

Talks than most people would ever have a

chance to be because I'd done four

before and that's unusual

so certainly when I walked on stage I

felt quite good on that talk and and

yeah I think I nailed it you know I I'd

rehearsed a lot and you know we can talk

about the principles of public speaking

and so forth which you know I've done a

lot of work on

but I did a good job and the audience

really responded there was a great

feeling in the room

so when I walked off

I felt that I'd actually you know done

that one Justice they didn't release it

for a year

and I thought oh maybe they didn't like

it you know but I do remember Bruno

jassani who's one of the the guys who

kind of runs Ted

in Edinburgh Castle bumped into me uh

about three hours after I gave that talk

and he said hail

and I thought ah okay well Bruno wasn't

there so obviously word is getting

around that there's some good stuff in

there and and held the acronym that you

delivered in that talk about how to to

be a great public speaker

um honesty authenticity integrity and

love correct um how did when that Ted

Talk came out how did your life change

because I'm because I know how the

algorithms work it takes some time for

things to sort of pick up momentum but

once they get going and the algorithm

says the watch time on this episode is

very very good so we're going to just

keep showing it to more and more people

so it might have taken some time but how

did how did things change for you at

that point and also your orientation

personally and professionally

yeah it took off quite quickly once it

came out

um I had long since kind of got past

watching the numbers every day you know

the first Ted Talk I did you know I was

obsessive 10 000 people watch this you

know and and I'm sure everybody does a

TED Talk start stuff like that

um

but this one clearly was it was going

ballistic quite quickly

um it went up you know in a period of

months it was in the top 20 I think

and yes it has changed my life

fundamentally really really powerfully

because

I have spent many many hours on planes

going all over the world delivering

talks getting paid to deliver talks so

my career kind of shifted from

running the sound agency an audio

branding company in the UK which is you

know relatively small business

and writing you know my first book Sound

business

I then got the opportunity to write the

second book which was off the back of

that Ted Talk I got the opportunity to

travel the world meet people

um give talks and spread the message

which is the important thing to me

because as I say I'm a listening

evangelist I I am passionate about

persuading people to start listening

um so yeah it moved my career

totally onto a different track

a track of public speaking of writing

books of being a speaker and an author

professionally

and in hindsight when you look at this

the wild success I mean the TED Talks

combined have over 100 million views now

right so that one particular talk I

think it's about 40 million views on

YouTube alone probably right I mean

Chris Anderson says because you've got

ted.com so it's got however many million

on there I haven't looked recently but

um then you add the YouTube views Chris

says whatever it is on ted.com you need

to double it to get a reasonable

estimate of the number of views embedded

podcasts and all that kind of thing

across the internet so yeah way over 100

million I think which is mind-boggling

to me

in hindsight as you look at the success

of that the very very wild you know

completely unprecedented success of that

particular video delivered in that way

on that topic what has it taught you

about why people care so much about that

video and the topic

I think that a lot of people don't feel

heard

in the world

so that that talk was about getting your

message across how to how to speak so

that people want to listen

um and I think that's a need

and it's interesting isn't it you said

the five times number is really

interesting the talk on listening has

been seen by one-fifth as many people as

the talk on speaking so we're much

Keener to be heard than we are to listen

to others and there's an imbalance there

which I think is

endemic in modern society

why do we want to be hard

um to make a difference

to forge relationships to be validated

to mean something to somebody to feel

right unfortunately which is a big human

need that I talk about quite a lot being

right is quite a dangerous thing in the

world at the moment and a lot of people

need to feel justified in that way to be

right

what is it doing doing for us at our

most Primal level to be to be heard or

to be right what is it is it helping us

to belong in a TR in the tribe is it

yeah tribe family human race and um you

know a reason for existing I suppose you

know what am I doing here and if people

are listening to me it gives me

significance that's certainly true

so I think it's it is about validating

one's self I mean I'm big I'm a big fan

of Eckhart Toller uh and his you know

theories about ego

and I think a lot of it would chime with

that you know the ego needs to be

massaged the ego needs to have

affirmation and being listened to making

a difference to people is part of that

but you know on a more altruistic level

making a difference in the world you

know you your life has affected millions

of people

um my talks have hopefully you know cast

a pebble into a pond and the ripples are

going out and lots more people I hope

are listening as a result well that's

good you know whether it makes me feel

good is another thing but it is actually

a good thing in the world we were

talking before we started um chatting

about the uh there's an irony to you

coming here today and speaking because

you've got a bit of a chest call yeah

well yes a head cold which is in my

chest so my voice is pitched down I'd

say two tones at the moment and it's a

bit croaky you know it's frustrating as

well as a speaker

because I love this instrument that we

have you know the human voice is an

incredible instrument

and it's an instrument we all play

although most of us have never had any

training or spent any time learning how

to use it really well well I have and

it's frustrating I'm now dealing with a

slightly broken instrument it's funny

because you know when I'm when my team

send me potential guests that you know

want to come on the podcast and we've

reached out to them to come on this

podcast there's a couple of criteria I

look for and one of the most important

one of the non-negotiables where we've

had the most interesting smartest people

in the world is their ability to speak

and and when I say speak I don't mean

you know how well they can you know how

funny they are or things like that I

literally mean if they're monotone we

can't have the conversation because I I

I've no I've got no data to support this

but if someone is monotoning their

delivery then I find it to be

hard to follow the story regardless

absolutely you say that you say that the

two most important things with speaking

are

the content and then the delivery and

that's what I'm actually getting to is

like that delivery point

have you got any evidence to back up the

importance of that or am I is this just

in my head that I think the well it's

another thing I asked Chris Anderson

who's got more experience of listening

to speakers than probably anybody in the

world because they do that all the time

at Ted and I said to him which is more

important content or delivery

and his answer was answer was quite

interesting he said well if I had to

choose they're both important if I had

to choose its content

because if somebody's delivering

earth-shattering content in a boring way

I can really make an effort and listen

to them and it's worth it at the end

whereas if somebody's delivering vapid

nonsense in a brilliant way it's just

irritating

actually so I I get that but I do think

they're both important I mean it is a

shame if somebody's saying something

incredibly important and they're not

using what I call the vocal toolbox you

know there's all this stuff that we can

deploy if we start paying attention to

our voice you know if you've got a

boring voice you can do something about

it it's possible

get a vocal coach work on it you know

take up a breathing practice improve

your posture just practice

prosody prosody the intonation you know

really exaggerating it I'm a great fan

of doing this it's the kind of thing

that actors do singers do

and many times for example I've I've

given talks where I've been looking at

an audience of CEOs

hundreds or thousands of them and I say

how many of you have to talk in public

Forest of Hands goes up

how many of you have had formal vocal

training three or four people

I go what this is part of your life it's

an important part of you you're speaking

to teams you're trying to inspire people

you're trying to lead people you're

trying to communicate build response

relationships with people you're trying

to move you know mountains with your

voice and you've never paid any

attention to it

it's tragic you know we we teach

reading and writing in schools we don't

teach speaking or listening which is

absolutely nuts

it's funny because I when people ask me

I always say that the most important

skill you can learn is to sell because

you're selling all the time I'm selling

right now I'm sorry I meet a girl in a

bar I'm just going to sell to her to try

and get her number I have a girlfriend I

wouldn't do that

um I'm selling in business I'm selling

to my teams I've been trying to inspire

investors to join us it's con this

caught my life is full of the sales

pitch whether I'm selling myself or an

idea or a vision or whatever

um but I've never really reflected on

the fact that the foundation of that

selling is this instrument of course

well actually even more than that below

that what's the most important part of

the sales conversation listening

it's not the speaker it's the listening

listening to understand the other person

to go onto their Island to understand

what is it what's their pain Point what

is it I can solve or help them with here

because if you can't it's a waste of

time how many times have we all had that

irritating sales conversation where

somebody's trying to sell something we

don't at all need and because they're

not listening so patter you know it can

be good but really well targeted talking

to somebody to whom we have listened

respected and understand that's a

different thing that's powerful

what what would I have to do because

there's lots of people that are out

listening to this podcast that start

their own podcast and want to be a

podcaster and many of them message me

and they want to come and sit here on

this podcast one day what are the types

of things

um you would advise someone to do with

their voice to be a to be heard

well treating your voice as a skill is

the first thing so becoming conscious

that this is a skill it's not a natural

capability just like listening is a

skill hearing is a capability listening

is a skill so I very much talk about

these two things as skills speaking and

listening are skills that we do not

teach in school or university which is

mad so we have to take it upon ourselves

because they matter you know they they

affect our outcomes in life they affect

I always say are happiness our

Effectiveness and our well-being are

fundamentally affected by whether we

master the skills of speaking and

listening

so in terms of speaking

understanding there's a vocal toolbox is

the first thing

so things like breathing your voice is

just breath that's all it is breath

moving across your vocal cords

and in order to speak well it's very

good to develop a breathing practice

maybe you do yoga maybe something else

Jane my wonderful fiance has taught me a

breathing practice which is very very

simple anybody can do it and it's called

resonant breathing which is breathing in

through your nose

and then out through your mouth like as

if you're blowing

so you can hear it and you practice that

and lengthen you count and lengthen the

in-breath and lengthen the out breath

and also we ought to be breathing from

our diaphragm from our stomach because

you know if you watch a baby breathing

it's their stomach that goes up and down

not not the chest

so just developing that I mean I wonder

people listening to this podcast when's

the last time you took a really deep

breath we tend to breathe you know just

to a fraction of our lungs like a little

bird

but with your voice

it's very important to breathe deeply

and to get into that practice also a

great cure for nerves you know if you

come on stage and you're a little bit

like this hello everybody then a big

deep breath will settle the voice right

down so it's a really powerful thing to

do that breathing practice what is it

doing then in terms of improving my

performance I've got the nerves part but

in terms of my vocal cords or

it gets you into it well what is it

Aristotle said Excellence is uh no we

are what we do repeatedly so Excellence

is not an act it's habit

so it gets you into the habit of

breathing better and deeper

and you know when you're speaking in

public there's nothing wrong with taking

a deep breath and filling your lungs

actors do it all the time I mean a

singer can sing for the most enormously

long note uh you know what's the world

record for static apnea 28 minutes

something like that lying at the bottom

of a swimming pool

on one breath

you know and that static apnea then

you've got the the free divers there are

things we can do with our lungs which

are beyond the imagining virtually and

yet most of us just breathe a little

tiny tiny breaths

so it's good for you as well to exercise

your lungs to inflate them I I had

unfortunately a few years ago

pulmonary embolism

which is quite scary and it can kill you

and that's blood clots going to the lung

they have to go through the heart to get

to the lung so that you know that's

where you can die

um and so my lungs are not as efficient

as they were before that and it's made

me even more conscious of the importance

of deep breathing of expanding the lung

capacity

it's part of being healthy apart from

anything else to have great lung

capacity is that what exercise does yeah

kind of an advertently partly yeah

absolutely releases all sorts of good

the happy chemicals into your system as

well exercise but uh breathing is very

very good for you generally and we don't

do enough of it so I've done my

breathing exercises I'm I'm heading on

to the Diary of a CEO podcast what else

would I would I have to

um do to be heard from by The Listener

what are the sort of tips or skills or

well I think variety just in general is

a very important aspect of speaking

so you talked about people who are

monotonic and that literally means One

Tone so if I speak like this through the

whole podcast it would be extremely

boring for people there's not a lot of

intonation going on there I don't get

any emotional resonance speaking like

that so it's it's just boring so

intonation the up and down of speaking

is really important

it's also crucial to be sensitive to

cultural differences in that for example

in scandalavia they have much restricted

prosody or intonation compared to say

the Latin countries where you know

people are like why is it very up and

down like this at the whole time I'm

croaking here

um I remember doing a talk in in Finland

in The Amazing concert Center in

Helsinki which was designed by a

brilliant architect called Toyota and is

acoustically unbelievable and at the end

of my talk there was a little tiny

Ripple of Applause and I thought ah

bombed they didn't like it you know

they've been America it'd be whooping

and hollering and whatever going on and

I went down for a coffee and people came

up to me and said thank you that was the

best talk we have had for some years

that's fins for you they're very

taciturned quiet people they don't get

very excited much

so unless they've had a vodka perhaps

but you have to be adjusting to the

prosody or president of the audience

you're speaking to what's prostitute

president is both intonation so the up

and down delivery which is Route One for

emotion it's it's absolutely crucial in

speaking

and it's also the rhythm of your

speaking the the gaps you leave and the

emphasis you put on words so it's

understanding how to it's not just

reading a script flat it's putting your

personality into what you're saying and

that makes all the difference in the

world

so anybody who it's interesting I mean I

have friends who run um voiceover

Studios and

actors come in to read things TV

commercials books and whatnot

some actors can read some can't

it's not a skill that everybody

possesses to be able to

read something or speak in an

interesting way that's not a script you

learn and then you really really work on

it and so forth just reading something

it's quite

technical actually you have to get

yourself out of the way

so yes working on your voice is

um

about variety it's about breathing it's

about being comfortable with silence for

example

not filling every tiny little Gap with

arms as you knows you know what I means

verbal ticks

so all of these things it's quite

important to record yourself listen back

and start to take it as a skill and as

Mastery become your own coach

effectively I mean I'm sure you watch

back your podcasts and there's always

something to learn there's always

something to look at and to say oh okay

I could have not done that or I could

have said that better or whatever it

might be and that's how we become

Masters and of course you can get a

coach a vocal coach a singing coach a

drama coach an acting coach a speaking

coach there are lots of them out there

so anybody who's

for example got restricted Timbre I mean

Timbre is the quality of your voice

and we tend to like voices that we would

describe in the way we would describe a

hot chocolate rich dark warm sweet

smooth all of those words

if that's not you listening to this when

you have a great voice but if it's if

it's not if somebody's got a thin

squeaky voice or scratchy Voice or

whatever it may be get a vocal coach it

can be worked on these are things that

normally we're in a habit the way we

speak is partly derived from our

physical being

I mean we have a body there are resonant

cavities we have vocal cords but it's

also how we use it and that's much more

important

anybody can learn to maximize their

voice and to make the most the most of

it

so that's about the instrument itself

and then how you play it what emotion

you put into it whether you're conscious

you know the thing I love most about

public speaking

it's making me more conscious in that

moment than anywhere else

standing on the stage you know I've I've

talked to audiences of 11 000 people

there's a big Spotlight there's cameras

on you you're standing on a stage 11 000

people are looking at you if you're not

conscious in that moment you've got a

problem you know so every gesture every

moment of that

is maximum consciousness of

being me and and communicating with

those people

so it's kind of like switching the light

on to maximum intensity

and I really love that that that

experience has colored the way I treat

life in general now because you know

it's my my biggest passion is to become

more and more conscious

to grow a little every day to become

more conscious every day

and speaking helps with that

I've never really talked about it before

but we um we've deleted a few episodes

of this podcast so don't worry this is a

perfect episode but what will happen is

we've had a guest come and they might be

honestly there's some cases where they

are the biggest in the world in their

industry and I can think of one

particular example where if I said the

name of the guest that we had the

episode we had deleted people would be

shocked because I believe they are one

of the biggest stars in the world they

have like 50 60 million followers online

um and then there's another individual

I'll think about who if I said the name

now everyone knows this person they're a

legend in many respects

um but we deleted that episode as well

and content is a factor but the other

factor that really really does

and result in that decision is I I think

it'll be really difficult to listen to

and I feel like I have this sense of

responsibility on a Monday and a

Thursday when we publish that even if

they don't know the name our audience

will listen and we see that in the

numbers if we publish a no-namer or a

superstar we get the same amount of

Clicks in the opening 24 hours roughly

because people are going I don't care I

trust this team to put people out there

so I just wanted to really state that

because there's I know there's a lot of

people that want to come on this podcast

there's a lot of like big CEOs that

contact us and one of the most important

things in my decision criteria is

literally how engaging they are at

speaking and from that I mean the

instrument the delivery

um so I just don't think it's funny when

you were talking I was thinking about

individuals that have said no too big

and they don't maybe I should give them

feedback but maybe that's not my place

it's literally about delivery

um so often so let's let's continue then

on the thread of of delivery you're

talking about standing there speaking in

front of 11 000 people on a stage one of

the things that I'm sure would stop most

of us from even endeavoring to do such a

thing is a lack of confidence

you've got almost a hundred thousand

students online some something crazy

like that that are all coming to do your

courses and to learn from you

confidence must be one of the first

conversations you you you have right to

get someone to be a great speaker

yeah it's important although it's

interesting to note that a lot of the

people who've given some of the best TED

Talks

like me are actually introverts I'm not

an extrovert it's not that natural for

me to do these things

and it's also true of people like Susan

Kane introvert you can stand on a stage

and you can

overcome the fear which is part of

growing as a human being I think

um doing things which are challenging

and pushing through the barriers and

doing it anyway

so yes confidence is important I mean we

could have a long conversation about

confidence because I was educated in a

top Public School

and I think one of the things that top

public schools in the UK do is to give

you an overbearing arrogance

and um to make you absolutely convinced

that you know everything about

everything

and more than that the ability to sound

convincing and to persuade people that

that is in fact the case

and it's taken me decades to get over

that at actually to discover humility

and to discover The Importance of Being

you know authentic about what I actually

can do

so yes I think

public speaking like anything else it's

like riding a bike if you do it enough

you become confident you know the first

time you or I drove a car our hands were

welded to the wheel you know we were

shaking with Terror now you drive a car

and you think about everything but

driving you know so it's just falling

off a log I've done enough speaking now

that's

I do not get frightened anymore nervous

yes nervous is good nervous gives you

the right chemicals to perform at your

Peak

so I never want to lose contact with

that

and I think that's true of anybody only

a professional footballer before a game

nerves will be there adrenaline it's

it's taking you up to the next level

once you get bored with what you're

doing

should you be doing it that's a big

question

but the confidence to do it comes from

practice and that's what I always say to

people it's part of my course you know I

talk about doing things just just doing

the thing

speaking in public

Toastmasters for example you know

they're in every city in the world you

can go and join a Toastmasters chapter

and and start speaking in front of

people that's what they do and as you do

it you become more and more familiar

with

the what goes on and that you know it

isn't actually the end of the world

nobody is actually going to stand up and

and call you out for being a useless

numpty you know you know even if you

forget your words you can actually say

I'm terribly sorry I've forgotten where

I was and everybody I mean I've seen

that happen at Ted

okay people who rely on memory which is

a very very high risk strategy to me you

know I always use slides but if you go

on stage and you've got a Memory Palace

or a chain or one of those routes and

you're like relying on that and you lose

the chain breaks and your cast adrift in

an ocean of Terror I've seen it happen

and what happens when somebody goes red

and starts shaking and says I'm so sorry

I've completely forgotten what comes

next the audience start to applaud

because they're on your side it's not

the end of the world and actually that

can make a deeper relationship than

being slick and perfect and and

Brilliant at every moment I've seen

people who are overconfident over

rehearsed where you know every one of

those gestures has been rehearsed a

hundred times and it was there for the I

mean there was a time at Ted when it was

almost a Reger to cry in a TED Talk

and I remember saying there was a talk

by uh you know an international Banker

or something about economics who halfway

through talked about his fatherhood

deceased and the tears came I thought

please this is this is like being put in

by a coach who says you've got to

connect emotionally

and it was just incongruous really so

I think it's all about being yourself I

mean that's the a of hail being

authentic

uh being yourself is fine it's so much

easier than trying to be somebody else

and having the faith that if you are

yourself and you've got a good message

that people will be with you on the

journey and will be on your side that's

certainly the case that Ted people don't

go to it's not a stand-up comedy night

where people throw things and Heckle

it's a place where people expect to

learn to be transported to be changed by

almost every talk

so the talk does that they love you on

the on the a point in hell I've come to

learn that I think humans are much

better at spotting authenticity than we

give them credit for big time I I think

so from our own perspective we think we

can blag it and we we underestimate how

um how much the viewer or the person I'm

trying to blag it to understands I'm not

being authentic

like we think we're better much better

actors than we actually are and it's

funny the one of the things that's put

this friend of mine for me at the moment

is about three weeks ago there was a CEO

that went viral on LinkedIn because he

had fired multiple members of his team

and then he had taken a photo of himself

crying and uploaded it with like a

really like sorry caption like I'm so

sorry today I had a really tough day I

had to find members of my team and as

you look at that

it just feels wrong it's almost hard to

explain it but the I think your mind

goes well he would have had to cry a

very unnatural thing to do mid crying is

to pick up your phone and take a selfie

and then to go to social media so on

that point of authenticity

um is your suspicion the same that we

people are much better at spotting

someone being inauthentic than we

believe than we understand

I think so we live in a world where um

social media and

um viral opinion spreading make it quite

hard to be truly inauthentic I mean

there's a lot of companies a lot of

individuals who do what's now called

virtue signaling

and people can spot that you know we can

we can catch the whiff of manipulative

inauthentic stances that are trying to

put us across in um the most the best

the most acceptable way whatever the

current you know meal is whatever the

current

um style is to be utterly acceptable and

socially right

so to me this is again this is part of

the human need to be right

and to be seen to be right which is

huge problem in the world right now

I think I mean we're seeing silos all

over the world the interventors have

made this way way worse where you know

you go online and you say there you are

I know I was right 10 000 people agree

with me yeah but there's a million who

don't but you don't go and ask them you

just go and find the people you agree

with in order to validate your point of

view and that is why we get these

extreme you know um conspiracy theory

silos of people who have nutty views and

are persuading each other that they're

right because they only talk to each

other they don't go and

check you know kick the tires of the

thing and check is there an alternative

hypothesis here that would be perhaps

worth entertaining so I think that's a

bit dangerous uh at the moment and it's

all about this need to be right and of

course what's the easiest way for me to

be right is to make you wrong

if you're wrong I am writer

and that is a slippery slope that's a

slippery slope of depersonalization of

dehumanization of

um bias and and hatred and you know at

the bottom of that slope is the kind of

the Isis answer to the world disagree

with me I'll kill you

so that's a dangerous slope and the

media have been contributing to that

slope you know this all this outrage

addiction that we see in the world

that's outrageous somebody's to blame

somebody should be punished and that's

all me saying yeah somebody should be

punished I'm right they're wrong

so it's this kind of ego fire that we

have Building inside of us the desire to

be the rightest person and to cancel

everyone else that's absolutely Council

Council and make people wrong left right

and Center be judgmental that's one of

the seven deadly sins I talked about in

that in that Ted Talk is judgmentalism

is is pointing the finger at people you

know the kind of parent whose son or

daughter comes home and says I got 95 in

the test and says what happened to the

other five you know this it's difficult

to be around people who are that

finger pointy

the other thing with with those with

that a point inhale authenticity that

I've come to learn actually from doing

this podcast is um there's a real cost

mentally to being inauthentic for a long

period of time and I see I see it time

and time and time again when I sit here

with people who were forced to be in the

media or who were first forced to not

forced but chose to play a role or a

character in the public eye and then

their identity became they kind of their

true authentic self became imprisoned by

this public identity that they felt they

had to keep up and then the midlife

crisis comes it's usually like 35 45

where they have some kind of burnout

blowout they find themselves in the case

of one of my guests last week just

coming home and crying every day and

having no idea why they're crying

because they'd spent a decade being

inauthentic in every interaction because

they felt they had to sometimes to

survive because of some early trauma

um and we don't talk about that enough

that and I've you know I've learned it

from doing this podcast myself as in the

most liberating thing for me ever is to

sit here in my socks in my house saying

whatever I want for three hours and

knowing that quite honestly if I tweeted

it I'd get dragged it would get quite

retweeted people taken out of context

and goes into different Echo Chambers

and they all try and

um find a way to get likes off what I've

said whereas I can sit here and say

anything about pretty much

anything in my most authentic self it's

like a weight I get to lift every day

um and it's been so good for my mind

but do you know what the biggest

challenge is about being authentic

what's that was knowing who you actually

are yeah good point so what are your

values Stephen it's a good question

because because you know when people

asked

I'm so scared of saying

what I think people want to hear how do

I know what my values are you write them

down you think about it what I would

what I would write down

I'm worried that what I would write down

are things that have been so deeply

conditioned to be my values by Society

well okay yeah that's worth challenging

isn't it so this is a great exercise I

mean I strongly recommend everybody does

this because not many people do you know

we just live our life in this kind of um

bumping into things making that up as we

go a long way if you have values that's

your moral compass if you have values

that's that's you tending to Define who

you are then you can be authentic what

is a value this sounds like a crazy

thing for me to say but I want to be

really clear like what is a value it's

something that you believe in that is um

what they call in business a North star

for your life it's something that you

will sacrifice to achieve so I carry

mine okay I've got four values which I

made into an acronym because I have a

terrible memory so I like acronyms the

acronym is flag so they are Faith

and that is all will be well I'm not

talking about a religious faith I'm just

talking about the sense that all will be

well because to me if I have faith that

the future will be okay it gives me the

courage to take things on try things and

find out you know it may be a disaster

but if I get to the disaster I've had a

nicer Journey than if I am always oh

it's going to be a disaster it's going

to be a disaster there you are I told

you well I've had a miserable journey

and I've ended up a disaster

so I I prefer to go the way of it'll be

okay oh it's not yeah but even then

it'll be okay to find a way yeah uh so

Faith the L is love

by which I mean thinking well of people

and there's a great practice that

um a very wise old friend of mine gave

me many many years ago which is amazing

um instead of walking around you know

we're in London right now well I live in

a much more remote place so you walking

around London you're always walking

through people and we have this if we're

not careful we have this nasty voice in

our head get out of my way you fatted

yet and oh you're ugly and you're stupid

and you know this kind of nasty side of

us which is doing a little monologue and

being really judgmental and critical

about people

instead of that it's cultivating habit

of saying in the head not out loud bless

you

not religiously again just bless you I

wish you well I'll leave you get into

that habit of walking around going bless

you person who just got in my way

it is amazing the difference it makes to

your likeness of being it's like walking

floating three inches above the ground

you meet people's gaze

and you might even share a smile because

you're not guilty about you or just

thinking they're horrible

you know whereas you've got this nasty

voice going on in your head all the time

you don't look at people in case you

catch their eye and they can see what

you were thinking

so love in that way wishing people well

um and of course love for family and

love for well love for life as well just

being positive you know uh the a is

acceptance which is a really important

thing to me and I tend to try and go

with the flow if an opportunity comes

along I'll try that there's a reason

that's come along so I'm not getting

into you know the secret or any of those

things but I do tend to believe that

things come to me for a reason

um you know whether it's God or the

universe or whatever one wants to say

I'm happy to go with the flow and to

accept also when things don't work you

know I don't bang my head against a

brick wall forever trying to make them

work okay that's not working we'll try

something else so acceptance and also of

people as they are that's really really

important

we spend a lot of time disparaging

people why are you like this why are you

doing this well that's the kind of tree

that person is

and you know you don't get angry at

trees for being that kind of tree so

that is the kind of person that is in

front of you except someone once said

something to you in the podcast which

plays into that they said if if you had

been through

if you'd walked in their shoes and had

their experiences you'd be doing the

exact same oh totally well let's come on

to validation in a minute the and then

the G of um flag can I guess yes is it

gratitude yes it totally is

um I you know I I don't like that catch

phrase and attitude of gratitude but it

is really important to me uh you know to

do a gratitude list when I'm feeling

miserable when I'm feeling down you know

I've got a cold yes but let's now look

at all the good things I've got in my

life you know I have a loving partner I

have two gorgeous little children I live

an amazing orkney which is a joy every

day you know there are so many things to

be grateful for

and I've got some Financial Security

I've got uh you know so much in life to

to be thankful for that way outweighs

normally the the bad things now that's

not true for everybody you know if I

were living in cursing at the moment for

example or somewhere like that there

would be a lot more to be ungrateful for

to be frightened about and so forth so

I'm not saying that in a kind of bland

way but even in the worst places

it's important to focus our attention on

the good things

because a lot of this is about where you

focus isn't it all the time reality is

huge it's all around us we don't

perceive reality we have a map in our

head

and it's up to us to select what it is

that we pay attention to

so that's you know it's very much the

same as as listening which is selecting

certain things to pay attention to and

then making them mean something

well it's the same with gratitude

there's always something or usually

there's something you can focus on and

say okay there's a thing I can be

grateful for

so that's it yeah Faith love acceptance

gratitude so those are mine and I know

that's my moral compass and that's what

I try to be in life and I do recommend

to anybody listening to this if you've

never written your values down

think about it not the ones that you

think will be accepted by more people

out there the ones that actually ring

true in your heart what does your heart

tell you and then you've got a map uh

you've got a you've got a root you've

got a direction in life which I think is

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a point about um if you were in their

shoes you if you'd live their life you'd

be doing the validation yeah yeah what

is this validation uh well it's part of

active listening so you know if we talk

about listening

um I talk about listening positions

and one of those is active listening so

it's a place to listen from

and inactive listening to me there are

three stages so stage one is reflection

where I repeat exactly what you said

without coloring it without making it

make sense in the way that I understand

but I say something along the lines of

okay what I just heard you say is which

can be a bit formulaic or you know so

you said this or so are you saying this

so I'm checking that I actually got what

you said I heard you it's amazing how we

don't very often do that so stage one is

reflection

which is used in the therapeutic

professions a great deal

I hear you say this

stage two stages of being a great

listener it's a very important form of

listening it's not appropriate all the

time to be an active listening

um because it's kind of a sledgehammer

to crack a nut in Social conversations

for example you know if we were sitting

in a in a pub or a coffee house and I'm

going what I heard you say Stephen is

this well and then validation goes um

okay I understand it makes sense that

you would feel that

I totally get why you would think that's

true I disagree with you but I

understand why you think that because

then I'm thinking about your background

and your road to this conversation and

we've come different roads to this

conversation and you will have different

life experiences

so validation is really important that's

the empathy bit of active listening and

once I've reflected and validated

then we're into stage three which is I

can contribute

so as opposed to me invalidating yeah oh

don't no that's nonsense to you why

would you think that you know we do so

much in validating in the world of other

people's positions and you can't sell to

somebody or persuade somebody if you

invalidate them as a human being

it's really important to validate

to show that you understand where that

person is coming from even if you

completely disagree then we can start to

put things together and make sense and

move forward I'm thinking of every

romantic conflict I've ever had but also

I you took me back to many client

meetings where the client brings forth a

concern or a problem

um and in that moment you even if you

disagree you know you have to show

you've accepted their concern and then

use that acceptance that place of

empathy to move them to another place of

thinking but also you know obviously the

most obvious

scenario people will think of is with

their Partners when they're trying to do

conflict resolution you know so what's

the biggest complaint in relationships

he or she never listens to me

and that's not just about hearing the

words it's about validating the other

person or invalidating the other person

and if we do that as a habit it can be

very damaging there's a thing actually

uh called stress induced audio

dysfunction s-i-a-d

which can afflict people when there's a

noise that they are exposed to a great

deal and they don't like and they

psychologically start to wipe it out

so for example my father in the later

years of his life was deaf at the

frequency of my mother's voice

and that's not uncommon in relationships

where one partner is in the habit of

hectoring

or nagging at the other partner and they

simply cease to be able to hear it

because it's a noise they don't enjoy

just like it you know it can happen to

people with industrial noise or

irritating noises

uh so it is really important not to be

invalidating somebody as a habit and we

can easily fall into that habit and it's

so powerful in relationship to be

validating people you know one of the

seven deadly sins I talk about in in

that Ted Talk is negativity

and that's a very strong habit that

people can fall into so you can audit

that how often do I say the word no or

not or can't anything negative like that

because if that's a habit that you fall

into it tends to lead to invalidating

other people a great deal I can't do

that I don't see why you'd think that

you can't be serious you know and that's

not a very nice way to behave with

people even if you don't agree even if

they are being stupid

I can see why you think that

now would you like an alternative

perspective

can I give you a different way of

looking at it that might be useful to

you

so you've said you know what you're

doing is not worthless it's not stupid

but maybe there's another way and that's

respectful I think everyone has the

experience of invalidating someone and

them then repeating themselves and then

you invalidate them again and then they

repeat themselves yeah that's called

argumentation yeah well I know it well

because I think in my previous

relationships I would it was funny

because I think I was the problem I was

definitely the the one that was

unwilling to allow them to feel heard

it's the it's the joy of listening

actually

um listening is at the heart of all good

relationships to me and if you listen to

somebody I mean what was it Scott Peck

said you cannot truly listen to another

human being and do anything else at the

same time

and I absolutely agree with that because

it's so rare in this world now we're so

distracted

um you know I I'm a big fan of near

isle's book

um indestructible yeah because we are so

prone to being distracted now I am

listening to you now you're sending a

text that's not listening that's doing

something else so it's rare that we will

put everything down

and do what you and I are doing right

now which is look each other in the eye

you know when you look when you're

listening I've got an acronym for this

um in in the book in the courses and so

forth rasa Russia which is r-a-s-a and

the r is receive and that means look at

the person who's speaking the dance of

the eyes in in the west tends to be that

the person who's speaking

looks around

as I am now you know thinking about

other things and checks back in from

time to time to see if the other

person's still listening

if you're with somebody who's speaking

and they look at you the whole time it

can become a little bit intimidating I

mean we're in a slightly unnatural

situation here so you know we're across

a table from each other which is you

know potentially conflicting

but we're you know really making an

effort to communicate here so you know

I'm looking at you quite a lot more than

I would if we were just you know in a

street or

um you know having a chat

so that's rasa the r is receive which is

pay attention body language facing the

person not feet pointing towards the

door which is always a good indication

that somebody actually doesn't want to

listen to you not doing anything else at

the same time

the a uh is appreciate which is little

noises and head Bobs and gestures you

know eyebrow raises Smiles oh really ah

those kind of things that oil the

conversation the s is

summarizing which is the word so and I

get very angry about the word so

actually it's been

totally debased in the modern world for

some reason it's become a habit for

people to start every sentence with the

word so

so what's your name so I'm John

what you're John because I just asked

you because so means therefore no you

were John before and you're going to be

John afterwards the word so doesn't I've

seen people come onto the Ted stage and

say so no I don't know who you are I

don't know what you're going to say

there is no before

um it is debased a lot but it's such a

powerful word

so we've all agreed this now we can move

on to that or in the long Corridor of a

conversation so what I understood you

just said is this is that right the old

repeating reflecting and so forth

closing doors behind you in the corridor

so you can move on and keep moving

forward

so that's the S of rasa and the final a

is ask asking questions at the beginning

during afterwards you know people often

say to me I I don't feel confident

people don't listen to me how can I

engage with people when they're speaking

the answer is asking questions and if

you're on a bit of territory that feels

unfamiliar or uncomfortable you can ask

questions that form linking that's

really interesting Stephen you just said

that How would how would that relate to

this thing I know about

so I can kind of bring the conversation

to home turf and start to feel I can

contribute something

so that's rasa and that really helps in

a conversation to direct listening and

to and to make the conversation fruitful

for both parties

so yes therefore

one of the things you said that um

reminded me of another topic which I

think is really important when we're

talking about speaking which is how to

speak with with authority I think about

all the people that are in boardrooms

and that might be a little bit Junior in

an organization and that's struggling to

be heard because they don't lack the

The Authority that a title will give

them how does one speak with authority

what advice can you give me to be a more

authoritative speaker

um in in work in life my relationships

wherever

well let's steal the situation first

where you're talking you you want to

speak to somebody who is a powerful

figure or you consider them to be

powerful

um I'm a great believer in agreements

contracts in an informal way

Stephen do you have five minutes I've

got something I really want you to

listen to

well that puts you in a position you can

either say yes or no if you say no

that's fine I won't say it now when

would be a good time

but I'll tell you a great experience I

once had on a beach in India and this is

one of the best sales people I've ever

met it was about a seven-year-old boy

and he came up I was sitting on the

beach he came and said you want Coke

and I said um you're trying to be

British not right now thank you very

much okay when you want Coke

oh uh well four o'clock at four o'clock

he was back here your Coke

I love that it was brilliant so it

taught me a lot about

um being authentic because I wasn't

being was I no I don't want to buy a

Coke from you

um and also about persistence and you

know asking the right questions and and

so forth so in the same way if I ask you

do you have five minutes and you don't I

can park it and come back another time

because it wouldn't be the right time if

you haven't got five minutes that's fine

I can respect your time but from your

point of view yes okay I've got five

minutes and you have just made a

commitment to listen to me so I have a

right if I'm talking to you and you're

off doing something else you know

answering email or something Stephen you

said you had five minutes I do

understand if you're busy when would be

a better time so there's a kind of

obligation there for you to listen to me

so that's one thing I think that's a

strategy that works very well if you're

on a meeting

and you don't feel you're the most

powerful person then again asking the

meeting for permission is a good thing

uh guys I have something that I think

really will contribute here would it be

a good time now to say it to you all

it doesn't always work but I think if

you're asking and people give you a

commitment then you have a contract and

you have a Channel of communication

that's been opened explicitly

one of the things you talked about there

is that kid on the beach with the um

Coca-Cola offering you a can of Coke

and how that kind of violates your

a inhale the authenticity piece

um it also violates the honesty

so

my question is

is there a time when one should not be

honest

well I think that the honesty needs to

be tempered with love

so the answer is it's a filter which is

the L inhale as well absolutely okay

I think that uh being dedicated to

ruthless permanent uh always on honesty

is a pretty dangerous strategy in life

because you'd be going around saying to

people you look terrible today I really

don't like you what you just said was

stupid you know it's not necessary to

say those things to people depends on

what you want to achieve I don't think

it's dishonest to withhold

judgment

and a lot of the things I just said are

opinions

and it's very important to distinguish

between opinions and facts they're not

the same thing and they're very often

confused in the modern world so opinions

that's what I think what I believe what

I judge

fact it's Saturday matter of fact we're

not going to disagree about that we can

disagree about my opinions and you know

I often say I wish that we lived in a

society where perhaps people asked

before giving opinion would you like my

opinion on that no

I had such a good opinion all ready to

go and you don't want it but we don't do

that do we we just proffer opinions and

and a lot of the time we we confuse them

with facts which leads to a lot of table

thumping I grew up in a family where

there was that confusion there was a lot

of argumentation and table thumping

because people had different opinions

and didn't accept that they could

possibly be challenged talking about

your parents talking about your mother

no my father actually he was a my father

was a massively confident and very

successful man in advertising he was you

know he was known as Mr advertising

um for some years in the 1960s

hugely confident and hugely

expressed in that way but didn't Brook

disagreement very easily

so disagreeing with him was quite

difficult

and that was certainly my experience

growing up that you had to be ready with

chapter and verse and references if you

were going to challenge a point of view

how did how did that shape you because I

think a lot about how my parents you

know my mum was sounded a little bit

like what you described earlier where

shouted so much at my dad that I I

couldn't understand how he stopped

reacting to the sound of the shouting as

a young age I remember wanting them to

divorce because I didn't like shouting

for six hours my dad would not really

shout back but um that definitely has

shaped how I communicate now but how did

it shape you that that environment well

very similar I mean I think you know my

first response to conflict is exit

it's the same strategy really and I

think probably a lot of uh quieter

people who've had the experience of

conflict growing up are pretty conflict

diverse and I think that's it's quite

important to toughen up on that to a

degree

because conflict exists all over the

place I'm not talking about physical

conflict which of course we want to

avoid at all at all times but uh um

disagreement

or somebody being crossed with us

or somebody being upset well sometimes

those are necessary in life

and responding to those in inappropriate

ways can actually really damage

relationships I mean I talk about four

leeches which undermine communication

and the fourth of those is fixing

fixing is it's not okay for somebody to

be upset around me don't be upset don't

cry don't express emotion you know uh so

it's it's a kind of smothering of

everything that goes on around

um I'll tell you a story about that my

art told me um when her little sister

was due to be born with my grandparents

there was great excitement they

decorated the nursery uh the the the

room was made already came the day off

her parents went to the hospital and she

was beside herself with excitement aged

about six

they returned no baby

never was a word said about the whole

thing because they didn't want to upset

her

and what she learned from that for the

rest of her life was you can't trust

people people don't tell you what's

going on you never know your people

aren't straight you know there were a

lot of bad lessons she learned out of

that lack of communication

the child had been still born it was a

tragedy they were upset but they didn't

share it with their daughter because

they didn't want to upset her that's

fixing

and it can be enormously damaging in

relationships to behave in that way

obviously one wants to be sensitive you

know you sit the child down you explain

in little ways perhaps starting off with

you know the baby's not coming and then

moving on to explain what happened as

the child gets older

um Jane and I had to survive uh having

uh a baby who could not survive and it

was deeply traumatic for us

um and I'm very glad to say that with

Holly we involved her every step of the

way Holly was

uh what six at the time five I can't

remember

um but we brought her in you know when

um

Little Lily was still born we brought

her in she met Lily we called Lily a

name you know we did everything we

possibly could and Holly still talks

about Lily she talks as if she can

communicate with her she she accounts

her as a member of the family so we

didn't fall into that trap of pretending

nothing had happened and fixing

sometimes people need to be upset you

know Holly was upset we were upset and

it's authentic to be upset

so I think being that averse to upset is

quite a dangerous thing in life

it's funny because when you told that

story I was engrossed

I was engrossed for a number of reasons

that exact point there when you said

that I was engrossed and I've spoken a

lot about the delivery itself of a point

and a story but um not a lot about what

it takes to design the content in a way

where you can engross somebody

what advice would you give to someone

that is

potentially you know presenting has a

pitch coming up is going to do a podcast

about how to deliver their thoughts in a

way which is engrossing

as it relates to the content itself

because I can I can Hazard a guess as to

why I was engrossed but well it's a

story yes story we love stories

storytelling is really really powerful I

mean what's the number one Ted Talk of

all time it's a talk by Sir Ken Robinson

sadly missed dead now but see a

wonderful man and at the heart of that

talk is a little story he tells because

the thesis of the talk is that we're

educating creativity out of children

that's what his talk is saying and he

tells this story about a little girl

who's drawing at the back of the class

and she doesn't normally and the teacher

goes to the back and says what are you

drawing and the little girl says I'm

drawing a picture of God

and the teacher says but nobody knows

what God looks like and the little girl

says they will in a minute

it's a classic story it takes 15 seconds

to tell it makes me laugh every time

that is his whole Ted talk in a

beautiful encapsulating enchanting story

storytelling is the best way to get any

talk across really if you can think of a

a metaphor

which matches what you're trying to

communicate to people

in a captivating story where perhaps

there's you know the classic elements of

a story there's a protagonist there's an

antagonist there are challenges there's

a journey there's a destination there's

help on the way from unexpected quarters

obstacles to overcome you can do it in a

very short space of time you can do it

as a personal story as I did in my TED

talk about uh my mum's negativity you

know that's a true story that you know

she was in hospital I took a paper in

and I said oh look it's October the 1st

and she said I know isn't it Dreadful

and I you know well if somebody's that

negative

it's very difficult to be around them

and that was a true story that I told

so it's almost like uh you could have a

little storytelling niche in your talk

you know I'm gonna can I tell you a

story and everybody goes oh yes come on

SO storytelling is a massive massively

powerful way there are books on this uh

if anybody wants to speak in a

captivating way become a good

Storyteller and it will really really

help

but the other big part of it I always

say

is

understanding the listening you're

speaking into

say that again

understanding the listening that you're

speaking into okay

because we all have unique listening

this is something it's the most common

mistake I see in business in

relationships is people thinking

everybody listens like I do

they don't

our listening is unique your listening

is as unique as your your irises your

fingerprints your voice print and so is

mine and they're different

so it's a huge mistake to assume other

people are going to receive this message

the way I would receive it

so it's a massively valuable tool if

you're speaking to one person or ten

thousand doesn't matter to say what's

the listening I'm speaking into

what's the listening I'm speaking into

who is this person

what's their listening where will it

have come from or who are these 10 000

people because in a big room you have a

Gestalt listening

which changes over time

you know that I've done talks

immediately after lunch in what they

call the graveyard slot he's a Ted

talker he can cope with that and

everybody's a bit woozy the blood's all

gone to their guts they're a bit tired

they're not very bright you know or

there's the final slot in the day just

before people are leaving when they're

all desperate to go and have a drink in

the bar or something you know there are

different listenings through the day

and different listenings from person to

person

so it's not a fixed thing and it's

important to be sensitive

and actually do you know what I've

discovered is all you have to do is ask

the question

what's the listening and you become

really good at spotting it I don't know

how it might be tiny body language cues

it might be pheromones it might be

intuition whatever it is you will if you

pay attention to it and you ask that

question consciously at least you're

respecting the other person enough to

say this person speaks really slowly so

I should probably slow my Pace down a

little bit

or this is a really really fast person

so let's be Buzzy here or you know they

might have cultural or uh they might

have political views or something like

that that you need to be sensitive to if

you're trying to achieve something

the the point as well about about

storytelling I was I was fascinated by

it because it reminded me of um

my time at Social chain we bought the

social media company

um we never had us outbound sales team

our strategy was kind of there was maybe

fourfolds but the two that are most

pertinent what I'm to the point I'm

making are personal branding and

speaking on stage so we grow our

business from nothing to tens and tens

and tens of millions in Revenue the

agency business the global business 600

700 million in Revenue never with an

outbound sales team and the the sole

thesis which I don't think people ever

realize who are trying to scale an

agency is we just told really great

stories and the best way that I can

demonstrate this is I remember my first

talk when I started social chain at

maybe 21 years old and I was in London

and I woke up on stage and I say

that's exactly why you were kicked out

of school you're incapable of listening

to anybody and you always think you know

a better way don't call me or the family

until you go back to University

and with that my mum hung up the phone

that's how I started all of my talks for

about four years I'm trying to sell you

social media advertising here and at the

end of this the presentation you would

find out what happened with minor mum's

relationship so it'd be this heart and

it would say and me and my mum have

never had a better relationship and I

genuinely you know of all the things we

did as a business I genuinely believe

that I was speaking 50 weeks a year I

was going to every corner of the world

meeting every brand our biggest brands

like Coca-Cola they all came from

hearing that exact talk with about my

mum

um

the conventional and the the normal

thing to do is to bring information

I'll give you as much information as I

can you see it in every slide deck every

pitch deck but we all know from a human

level the best part of this conversation

is going to be the stories yeah of

course it's going to be engaging people

and causing them to be curious

curiosity is absolutely fundamental in

listening now I talk about four C's of

listening which are

um compassion

for the other person for the audience

whatever it might be commitment because

it takes time and effort to listen

listening is work it's not just a

capability yes we have ears but we

actually have to put things down focus

and so forth Consciousness that you're

actually doing something now this is an

action this is not something that goes

on in the background

and curiosity

and if you can engender those things in

people

especially the Curiosity which we get

with stories especially if you start a

story and you don't finish it

come on Stephen we want to know what

happens at the end yeah yeah so you then

got the bit in the Middle where they're

all going I really want to know what

happened at the end and then you give

them the end at the at the end to

satisfy them that is a brilliant way of

engaging people

could listening to this and

actually that's funny because I was

actually reflecting on we I told you my

company in San Francisco has just raised

a lot of money and I broke all the rules

that I've just said it's just it's just

there's 10 slides of just information I

mean it worked but I think it's funny

because I actually thought I don't

actually care if it worked I would have

liked to do it my way yeah you know well

also because you're then kind of

conforming to the the Norms out there

which is that's where everybody does

stuff that's a deck you know I mean I

hate that word deck anyway but you know

here here let me show have you got a

good deck yeah but there's something in

in the actual design of the deck that

says way more about you than the