This guy said something so terrible and

grotesque at the White House. This is

where this woman used to live, you

[ __ ] Like, back off.

>> Hi everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox

Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

>> And I'm Scott Galloway.

>> Oh, do we have a lot to talk about?

>> Wow.

>> President Trump celebrated his 80th

birthday ringside with his UFC Freedom

250 where fighters compete in front of a

crowd of 4,300 with the actual White

House as a backdrop as a marketing thing

to do. A lot of marketing going on

whether it was Bud Light or or whatever.

Meta had did something very laudable.

They were giving these glasses to blind

service members. I think their their

brand took a hit for being associated

with it. Anyway, the guest list reads

like a who's who of power, tech, and

money. Zuckerberg was there who was a

big who is a big fan. And I This is the

only thing I genuinely like about him.

I'm glad he's committed to that.

Whatever. Um Joe Rogan was there as you

said cabinet secretary centers. Lindsey

Graham looked very happy surrounded by

muscled men. Of course, Paramount CEO

David Ellison was in the audience as the

event streamed exclusively behind a

Paramount Plus paywall. Nothing says the

people like a paywall. We'll talk about

that more in a minute because you know,

again, this one fighter grabbed and took

this cheap shot at Michelle Obama which

is part of a conspiracy theory among the

right and they think they seem to be

obsessed with her and and the Obamas.

Um now, UFC CEO Dana White later told

Time magazine, "Everyone knows my

position on free speech, but I hate that

kind of nonsense." I don't think you

need to defend free speech, Dana. It's

just Can't you just say this is like

horrible? Like they they always have to

like find some dumb excuse.

>> That's a That's a I think that's a good

I think that was a decent a good comment

from him. Like that's

>> I It's the least he could do.

>> But we we disagree on this because I

actually think well, we're going to I

think the event was a win for the White

House.

>> I don't.

>> And distinct that dumb moment which will

get a lot of play, but

um

I like I think that

essentially just the way Tucker Carlson

is trying to shore up the Nick Fuentes

manosphere part of the party,

>> Yep.

>> there is still a large segment of

America that wants to embrace some form

of masculinity and feels like it's been

shoved aside. And I feel the same way

about masculinity that David Frum feels

about the border and that is if

progressives don't enforce the border,

fascists will. And if Democrats can't

can't come up with some sort of

symbolism or role models that

demonstrate strength and service as

masculinity, then the Republicans sort

of fill that hole with violence and

misogyny, which is exactly what they're

doing.

And uh unfortunately, it not only

highlights this performative weird

dominant misogynistic form of

masculinity that is just

um in my opinion, the absolutely the

terrible role model for young men. It

highlights to me that Democrats haven't

been able to identify anything around an

aspirational viewpoint around

masculinity.

>> Uh

I'm going to push back. Trump is down

10% among young men over the past few

months. It's what they're way down on

>> because of this event.

>> No, I'm just saying. It's just I think

this version masculinity, you know what

a better version were the Knicks, the

way they were. And I'm not I'm taking

away the owner who I don't particularly

like, but I thought they display, you

know, a lot of like a support of women.

If you notice, there was a lot of

mothers, there was a lot of sisters,

there was a lot of

>> Agreed.

>> They they always talk about, you know,

the the guy

the main guy Brunson was, you know, he

gave up big pile of money to have other

people on the team included Cat

Karl-Anthony Towns.

>> wants a ring. He wants a ring.

>> a ring, of course, but it's like it just

shows like the the difference of the

watch parties was really rather

significant. [clears throat]

And so if you want a version of

masculinity, that's a version

masculinity that is very sporty, very

masculine. It it did a lot to heal the

male loneliness epidemic. Have you seen

people out in the street like that? Men

out in the street like that?

>> Absolutely love it.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't think there's any there's any

way to to not highlight the Knicks the

players, New York,

what have you. Um again,

look, I I think that event and the

pageantry and the flyover, I think

there's a large segment of America that

likes that stuff.

>> I like a flyover, by the way. I didn't

I'm not saying I don't like a flyover. I

think the I think there are ways into

this that are very very clear that you

can support things. I think it's Here

this is Monica Hesse in the Washington

Post. I think she did a great job. And

she also is a big supporter of MMA, by

the way. She likes it. The problem isn't

the fighting on the lawn. People who

love the UFC have had to sit through

decades of presidents inviting poets and

cellists and opera singers to the White

House and the turnabout is fair play.

The problem with Sunday's broadcast

wasn't the fighting. The problem was the

tonally incoherent emotion of patriotism

and bloodlust, history and buy this crap

an event happening for the people but

tucked behind a Paramount play paywall.

I think that exactly that's what it felt

like. It felt like And by the way, all

the all the cheap seats, they were they

were stuck in that one area of

they weren't at the White House, which

was um

uh this is what she also wrote. What do

we make of this other than this is

America? Bring me your tired, your poor,

your huddled masses advertising Bud

Light and trucks in loud we trust. Bring

me your ring girls dressed skimpily in

sequined stars and stripes and your man

with cauliflower ears and a bunch of

sailors dancing to YMCA. I just

There was such an

I don't know. I

I do contrast these things. I also

contrast the World Cup, too, which looks

wonderful and diverse and interesting

and the the crowds are I don't know.

It's just There is a way to appeal and I

think Democrats should embrace it, but

this was grotesque and

it was

and and it was

it got the center of attention will be

this idiot, this idiot who's had his

head hit too many times calling

making an incredibly misogynistic, it's

racist, it's it's just like gross and no

but no man doing anything. That's what

it is. That's what it is. Okay. Anyway.

>> Yeah, like her her comments, her

assessment is really really impressive

and I do agree the World Cup and the

Knicks are better. Look, at the end of

the day just politically, Cara,

it was a total distraction and occupied

uh the news cycle from the fact that we

have a shitty memo of understanding on

something actually a lot more important.

>> get to that. Yes.

>> So, just from just from a distraction

standpoint, it was a I think it was a

win.

It If they hadn't had that event,

the media would have been much more

focused on something that has much

larger implications for the world and

that is Donald Trump walked into a you

know, a car dealership demanding a

Ferrari and is leaving with a Camry cuz

he's figured out he has bad credit.

>> overpaying for. Yeah. No worries.

>> So, at

at a minimum and there probably wasn't

strategic planning the timing, but I

think that

I I think anything that distracts from

this memo

>> Even if it's Even if it's a terrible

statement. I get it. I get it. Well,

we've got a lot to talk about. We're

going to talk about that. The Trump

administration, by the way, is fighting

with Anthropic again and SpaceX, of

course, went public. That seems like 100

years ago. But, you know, speaking of

Paramount with got Justice Department

approval, the word the merger is just

cleared a key hurdle. The DOJ says its

review found the roughly $110 billion

deal is unlikely to harm competition for

consumer or consumers, removing a major

federal obstacle. The deal isn't done

yet though. The state attorney general,

including California's, are still

reviewing the transaction and could

challenge it. Uh David Ellison said the

merger remains on track to close by

September. He's got to because after

that a so-called ticking fee would kick

in making the acquisition more

expensive. European regulators are still

weighing approval. What's interesting to

me is that the Justice Department

apparently shut down its investigation

into Paramount's bid to buy Warner

Brothers before career staffers even had

a chance to weigh in. And those lawyers

weren't just skeptical of the deal. They

were actually leaning towards

recommending the DOJ sue to block it,

arguing the combining two of Hollywood's

biggest studios would be bad for

competition. But with the Ellisons and

Trump, the fix apparently was in. We'll

get to the Roku deal, which actually Fox

just bought Roku, but these mergers are

just coming fast and furious and I think

no one was surprised by this. It's a

question of if the states or European

Union can slow this thing down. But

are you you were concerned with Netscape

with higher prices. How do you feel at

this point?

>> Netflix with higher prices.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, the the reality is if the

economists I talked to say that it's

hard to say these guys have a monopoly

when you look at the fact that the

combined viewership still won't rival

um YouTube's. When you look at the

revenue, it's nowhere near what the

revenue is for, you know, the media

companies, the tech media companies we

talk about. So you can accuse them of

overpaying. I had a chill run down my

spine over the weekend when I read that

Mark Thompson is being considered

as kind of the manager they need to come

in for CBS News.

>> The only one. Actually others who they

mentioned said no, but go ahead.

>> It just all of a sudden it sent a chill

down my spine. I'm like, what? The

Ellisons own CNN? I just like it hadn't

fully dawned I hadn't fully dawned on

me, but from a straight from a straight

regulatory standpoint

>> Yeah.

>> there was really no, in my opinion,

valid reason

uh to block it. Um and and by the way,

I've switched on that. I was worried

about the consolidation of media, but

when you include competitors around

watch time, revenues,

there wasn't there really wasn't an

economic argument. Now, in terms of

mergers, you're going to see a flurry of

them because anyone who's thinking

maybe we'd like to buy companies.

They're like, let's do it while the

doing is good.

>> Mhm.

>> Because if you get a Democratic

administration in there, you're going to

have much more scrutiny around these

mergers.

>> Yeah.

>> And I mean, you already see it. You

already see You already see attorney

generals AGs in blue states getting much

more exercised about this merger than

the federal guys, but it's it's going

through.

And it'll be really interesting to see

what kind of the the first moves are or

ramifications of a of this consolidated

company.

>> And they've got that debt to deal with

cuz, you know, I I've just recently

interviewed a whole bunch of big media

company just media people and they're

all like this debt is [ __ ]

ridiculous. They most of them are very

much focused on the debt and the math of

the situation. I think they'll have to

make enormous cuts and, you know, it a

lot of the rest speaking of distraction,

a lot of the rest is a distraction. With

the CNN thing, I

Well, you know my feelings on that.

Anyway, um let's go on I mean, I'm I'm

leaving um as soon as I can. Um okay.

>> So, you're out. You're out of CNN.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

>> You've been trying to talk me into doing

[ __ ] at CNN for 24 months.

>> You're not listening to me. Do you ever

Do you invest in a relationship? I've

been saying it publicly for a long

>> Well, that's why that's why lesbians

have the highest rates of divorce cuz

both of them are listening.

>> Yes.

>> It's important that in a relationship

that the man not listen a lot. That's

key to the survival.

>> I'm I'm

>> That is key to the survival of our

relationship. There's a lot of [ __ ] that

I just runs right by right over my head.

>> Let me try to outline it. I don't want

to work for AT&T

and I don't want to work for their

hand-picked minions cuz I think they're

incompetent. That is what I've said over

and over again. And I I like I love

working with the people at CNN. I I very

much like Mark Thompson.

>> Yeah, I like him, too. He's a smart guy.

>> And I hope they put him in charge cuz

I think he would do a great job. I just

don't see any way that these people make

good decisions and I don't trust them.

That's it. They just I just don't I

don't want to I don't want to work for

tech people.

Um you know, they're more than

they can, you know, I don't know.

There's There's just I don't I'm not I'm

just not staying on to that. There's

lots of places to go. I don't Like you,

I think TV's great, but it's not that

great like to put up with this [ __ ]

Like I don't That's the one thing. Um I

like, you know, me I'd like making that

series. Um

I just, you know, I don't except if I

owned it. If they want to buy it, they

can buy [ __ ] off me if they feel like

it. Um but other But I don't want to be

in I don't want them to own something I

>> think See, I would argue for Kara

Swisher if they gave you an agreement to

work at CNN and said, you know, like

we're just these this this is the

editor, this is who's in charge of your

stories.

Uh why wouldn't you

You You don't think you'd be able to

fashion an agreement?

>> I don't think they would do that. I

don't think they would do that. Like

they would pay me every time person I

don't like talks to me, I guess. But no,

at this moment, no. Not the way they're

behaving right now. And this, by the

way, this whole like

>> Pull a Leslie Stahl to man the stay

because he'll protect CNN from these

evil

>> I am not I don't think I have that power

to do it. Anyway, I uh there's lots of

other options and I I'm on under

contract with them until um the end of

the year and I'm hoping they'll let me

out early cuz I don't want to affiliate

with them. That's all. I left I left

Murdoch, too. It's not This is not a new

fresh thing for Kara Swisher to flounce

out and do better.

No one cares, but it says something. It

>> I just want everyone to know I'm I'm I'm

absolutely a [ __ ] an expensive [ __ ]

So, Ellisons, you have my number.

>> Oh oh, I heard about that. Let's not get

into that issue.

>> You've had You have my number.

>> Yeah, they called you. I know that. I

was defending you on that, by the way.

>> I appreciate that.

>> your number. You know, we don't need TV

at this point, honestly. Anyway, um

let's go on a quick

>> We are TV, just with much better

economics.

>> Or it's just It's like a headache and

then I have to see them.

>> And makeup's not as good and was not as

attractive as Stephanie Ruhle or Ari

Melber, but we are TV.

>> Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When

we come back, Fox is buying Roku.

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Fox Corporation is buying Roku in a $22

billion deal that could reshape how

Americans watch TV. It's a big play for

advertising-based television. Just so

you know, Fox gets access to over 100

million households worldwide. Lots of

people use this combining its live news,

sports, and Tubi streaming service with

Roku's massive platform. The combined

company would become the third largest

player in US television by share of

viewing, putting real pressure on the

likes of YouTube and Netflix. It's I I

always liked Roku. Roku will operate

under the Fox umbrella with your Roku

founder Anthony Wood, who's a really

interesting person joining Fox's board

in a subordinate role. That's

interesting. Fox's shareholders will own

about 73% of the combined companies with

Roku shareholders holding the remaining

27, and the deal still needs a sign off

from both shareholder groups and

regulators. Um

Uh it's interesting cuz they deliver all

the networks into living rooms, you

know, they're like it's almost like a

cable company in a weird way. Um I use I

think I'm using my Roku in Brooklyn like

because I didn't want to get the cable

bundle or something like that.

I haven't hooked it up yet, but I I've

always liked Roku. I don't use it that

much, but I thought it I thought Anthony

did a nice job. And I'm just curious,

you know, he can't get any bigger

presumably is why he's selling.

>> I think it's a great move. I I I had

something I didn't see companying coming

and the moment I

looked at it, I'm like this makes all

sorts of industrial logic.

>> Who else could have bought Roku just

before you move on from that? Who else?

>> Well, there's there's the obvious like

there's the obvious Warner Brothers

Paramount.

Um Disney.

Um

I mean this isn't a They have assets

that are that are

incredibly [clears throat] important.

They have

I mean

they have a ton of first-party data.

They

They have first-party data across 100

million households, which is a really

strategic asset. It gives Fox a direct

viewer relationship that cable and

broadcast never offered advertisers,

right? So cuz you have the cable company

in the way.

Um Fox is projects 400 million in run

rate cost synergies.

>> They needed this. They needed this.

>> It's a really savvy bold move.

>> Oh my god, Lachlan sounds demonic as he

talks. sounds.

>> What's interesting is they actually sold

their shares of in Roku at 58 bucks a

share to fund their acquisition of Tubi

and now they're buying back in at 160.

Fox will own roughly 73% of the combined

company.

>> Yeah. No, no, no, but we

I just said but they had to had shares

before?

>> Yeah, so my understanding is that

Fox actually they they had Roku shares

in March of 2020

and they sold them at 58 bucks a share

to fund their half a billion dollar Tubi

acquisition.

>> has been very helpful to them.

>> So look, this is a company that's making

a big bold bet recognizing their core

business is in structural decline.

I think it's really look, I I think the

folks at Fox are really smart.

>> Yeah, this is a smart move. I thought

that. That's exactly I'm like, huh. But

it is a big bet on advertising based

versions of this, right? Because Roku's

advertising based and it's not

subscription based. So

>> But but here's the thing, if you look at

the trends, subscription has been eating

into subscriptions streaming has been

eating into linear advertising supported

TV for the last 20 years.

In 2024

it stopped gaining share. It's like

50/50 right now. So

I mean, for example, I don't know if our

listeners know this,

they can watch Pivot or Prof G Markets

on Roku. It's available. We have a

channel on Roku.

Um

and it gets huge huge viewership. I

mean, the company

Roku's probably the most important

>> revenue generator?

>> Oh, no, it's it's I we launched

two months ago, but my attitude is if

you you look at enterprise value just

and I'll try to be transparent about

what we're trying to build a Prof G

Markets and what we're trying to build a

Pivot.

>> [gasps]

>> If you're the way you increase

enterprise value and increase the

multiple on your EBITDA is one by right

now adding subscription revenue, which

we're doing on Substack, and two,

having alternative distribution in

different

differentiating your media mix or your

revenue mix.

So, what starts small, I think we'll do,

you know, 100 or 300 grand in revenue

from Roku or advertising on Roku by

serving all of our pods on Roku.

But, what you want is when you if you

ultimately I think about enterprise

value, it's a multiple of your profits

and your growth.

But, what increases a multiple is how

enduring that revenue is, I is much

subscription revenue as possible, and

also a diversified set of revenue

streams.

>> Right. Yeah, I see.

>> So, my attitude is while it's been an

effort to reformat our content and put

it on Roku, it's absolutely worth it

because what you want to say to a

potential investor or acquirer is look

at all these different points of

distribution and types of revenue mix

that create a more, you know, a more

enduring, a more enduring company. But,

just to get to back to Roku,

4.7 billion in total net revenue, up 15%

year-over-year,

uh platform revenue of 4.1 billion,

that's up 18%, gross profit of 2

billion, up 15%,

uh last year was their first GAAP

profitable year.

The company reported net income of 80

million in Q4 alone, so it's kind of hit

that tipping point.

>> And again,

>> over 100 million

households have Roku by at the end of

2025,

and device hardware still runs at

negative gross margin, but they sell

hardware at a loss to capture platform

users. I would argue that Roku is

arguably

the most important media company that

people have never heard of.

>> Now, what let me just point to another

person, Anjali Sud, young woman, chief

executive officer to be. She She This is

a free ad-supported streaming service

they have, and she was the previous CEO

of Vimeo, but she's expanded the user

base. I think it's 100 million users and

it's the most watch free TV streaming

service. It's very quirky and you can

find all manner of stuff on there. Um,

but I think the two of them are very

savvy. They're both incredibly smart.

Like that's the thing and I think one of

the things I

you know, Lachlan Murdoch, I just think

was born into his job, but one of the

things I just interviewed

Peter Chernin for my podcast today.

Another smart former Fox executive. One

thing that Rupert's been good at is

executives. Like they're very sharp. Um,

and and you should listen to that

Chernin one cuz I think it was a great

interview, but you know,

just really smart executives and this is

the case. Anyway,

very smart. You can also by the way

watch us on YouTube. By the way, we're

very promiscuous. The entire Scott and

Kara are very promiscuous. Um, anyway,

let's move on to the other one. We like

this deal. SpaceX of course seems like a

hundred years ago. Officially public and

as one Scott Galloway predicted it did

indeed close up on its first day of

trading and you had said it was going to

be about 20% and not more, which is

interesting. It was a 19.something

percent. Shares are at a high of 177 at

the time of this taping after the

company's public debut on Friday making

the current market cap 2.32 trillion.

You thought it might be a scooch under

under two.

It's first day on the market over 500

million shares traded hands. A lot of

movement here.

Elon himself of course crossed the

milestone thanks the pop becoming the

world's first trillionaire. There were

some notable buyers. Gina Rinehart,

Australia's richest person bought over a

billion dollar stake in the company and

Cathie Wood's Ark Investment bought more

than 500 million dollars worth of stock.

So, go through if there's anything

surprising there cuz venture and also

venture funding for US space technology

firms excluding SpaceX jumped 7.5

billion dollars in 2025 from 2.5 billion

the previous years. Probably we'll see

if that goes anywhere cuz it's a it's

also a money can be a money furnace

as you the word you used. But any

thoughts on where it is right now?

>> I thought that the bankers and and Musk

and

Look, I I think the most significant

thing here is

that this we've never seen such

engineered manufactured scarcity. There

was tens of billions of dollars of

demand for this IPO that has never

existed for an IPO before. And then you

combine it with the fact that unlike

other IPOs that went public on the

NASDAQ, it didn't have to float more

than 10%. It only floated 5%.

>> Very scarcity as you said.

>> So you've just created manufactured

scarcity. Now, to be fair, it's up again

today.

So this has created a level of

excitement in the market. I do think

you have to highlight the positives

here. And that is I never want to be

someone that demonizes success.

There are 14 new billionaires

in taxes that you've never heard of.

Those people will give money away. They

will start new businesses. Something

that's uniquely American is that we

continue to produce companies like this

and entrepreneurs like

Elon Musk. It's going to create a lot of

economic growth. You're going to see a

surge in philanthropy from Berkeley to

the University of Texas.

It inspires a lot of people.

It is There's a lot of positives here.

And we're seeing venture

funding increasing

in you know, space-related um projects.

So there's there's a a lot to like here.

You know, I don't like the manufactured

scarcity and the what I'll call the

overlying narrative of sort of like the

hero's journey here.

>> And the numbers at certain businesses

are not great.

>> Yeah, look this from a valuation

standpoint and this is this is what Musk

has always been able to do is to create

this this

narrative over numbers that's like no

one else in history.

Um so but right now the stock is trading

30% above the IPO price.

Um and then he has also again and I'm I

go back to governance. There's all these

different lockups. Like if you trade on

a certain platform and you bought shares

through a direct share purchase on a

certain platform, they technically don't

have a lockup, but but they if they sell

their shares, they can't trade on the

platform before which is like a soft

lockup. There's certain

criteria around when you can sell if the

stock is up a certain amount, etc. To be

fair, Elon's locked himself up. I doubt

he's planning to sell. He'll just borrow

against his stock. But what they've

effectively done, which you're not

supposed to do, is they've created

different class of classes of shares,

which you're not supposed to do.

So again, I find that this is

this is really inspiring and important

and going to be great for economic

growth on certain levels. I also believe

that this entire sector is going to have

not a collapse, but a pretty serious

drawdown when people after two or three

earnings calls are forced to justify

anything resembling a future that

involves the kind of earnings built into

this thing.

>> Right. And then the rush to space

technology firms, same thing. They're

going to over invest, which is normal,

like I would assume, presumably.

>> And that and quite frankly, that's one

of the great things about America cuz we

over invested in the internet and the

technology survived and a lot of these

companies came back and that investment

was good, but you didn't want to be one

of the one of the investors over

investing initially.

>> Toys.com, yeah.

>> Yeah, so but I said somebody called me

and I said this on Pivot. Someone called

me and said, I got I have allocation,

should I take it? And I said, take it

and trade out on the first trade.

>> If you buy it and trade out, you don't

do as most people don't do as well

except in certain cases, right? Is There

were all these like really interesting

statistics of buying and selling um that

were not good in the long run over over

time. It's just you've got to hit the

exact right one or you lose money most

of the time.

>> This is different because so first off,

trading out

trading out you you get short-term

capital gains at a higher rate. So

there's a lot of evidence that shows

that just generally with investing

you're better off just buying and trying

to never sell. It's just

trading trading is a difficult is a

difficult game.

I thought and I said this, I said they

are going to manufacture a 20% pop. The

bankers

and everyone are figuring out a way to

create a supply demand imbalance that

will exactly peg this at a 20% pop.

What's impressive and punctures that

theory is that it's up another

11% today. And the thing that

also just the thing that deserves a nod

is the best VC in the world

is not Andreessen Horowitz or whoever

initially funded SpaceX.

>> Well, it's in my opinion it's Uncle Sam

and that SpaceX investors and the banks

taking SpaceX public should remember

that we would not be here today without

grants from the federal government. In

2008, SpaceX was on the verge of

bankruptcy

and would likely have run out of money

if not for a grant from NASA.

>> Yep.

>> And the golden law

>> with Tesla.

>> And then the golden law of stupidity

here, Trump is trying to cut NASA's

funding by more than 20% this year.

>> Same with mRNA technology, same with the

government is it one of the greatest

investors of all time if you could think

about it that way.

>> Best VC in history whether it's medical

research for our universities or

electric charging stations what what you

know. And they would argue back well,

they're going to get their bite, they're

going to get enormous return through tax

revenues.

>> Possibly.

>> The big debate this will will stir

is in America we've been talking about

for decades now. What's dominated the

conversation is how you create wealth.

The conversation that is superseding

that is what you should do with wealth

once you have it.

And so, right now Elon Musk could buy

all of Manhattan, every building, every

condo, every park with his That's how

much money he has right now.

And whether or not this level of

concentration of power

which comes in a capitalist society from

money

presents a risk. And I'm of the mind

that I think it's important that

eventually and I I'm I'm in favor of of

eventually having trillionaires

but we should have guardrails over the

power and progressive taxation, which we

don't have right now.

>> Can I just say one thing I want to push

back on and that you you've created all

these rich people are going to give to

charity. If you look at the statistics,

I don't think they're going to be

charitable. I don't think they're going

to do good things. I just don't. I don't

think this class I don't think Elon Musk

has had a very good record. So, I just I

I'm not expecting these people to be I

think they're going to be on an ongoing

quest for more money and more power and

more consolidation. So, I'm not

impressed with their charitable

thoughts. And I'm I'm glad they're

creating jobs, but

they would immediately cut you if they

had to. That's I just don't think they

have that in them.

>> You're talking about Okay, but I I think

we need to parse that and that is

if you look at billionaires

and their wives, the wives have hands

down been more philanthropic.

And it doesn't and and the quote-unquote

billionaire masters of the universe have

not acquitted themselves well on a lot

of levels.

But there's just no doubt this type of

wealth creation event is going to result

in a surge in philanthropy. It just

does.

>> That would be great.

>> Because you you're going to have a lot

of people who wake up and have $20

million and think I'm going to give 2

million bucks to the local food bank or

I'm going to give 50,000 bucks. I I

talked to you know, I'm I'm involved

with the University of California.

They're all revising their

giving goals up for next year because of

the IPOs coming down. The And they have

so many alumni

I'm not talking about Elon Musk. I think

it would be

you could you could make a credible

argument that he's not the most

philanthropic person. I get that. And

you can definitely make an argument that

MacKenzie Scott and Melinda French Gates

are more philanthropic than their

husbands.

But when you see these types of

liquidity events, local philanthropies

surge in terms of in terms of

money.

Look, there's for all of SpaceX's

problems and income inequality, there

isn't a nation on Earth that wouldn't

kill to have those problems.

>> I would agree. I just think it's going

to go into political activism in a way

that could be deleterious to most of us.

>> Oh, I I

>> That's where it's going. It's not going

to help any kid

>> Let's be clear. Elon Musk, in my view,

can probably decide who the next

president is.

>> Yes, that's correct.

>> Yeah, he spent $250 million and had

and had influence on the election. Maybe

he didn't decide it, but he had

influence on it. What happens if he

decides to put 2 and 1/2% of his net

worth or 25 billion or 100 times what he

spent

last time? And

>> No, he's a freight train.

>> And also to be to be fair, are we

comfortable

and I he deserves credit. One of the one

of the things that doesn't get he

doesn't get enough credit for

is he has turned off Starlink for

Russia.

And it is it has put Russia at a severe

disadvantage to Ukraine. And I think

that is a wonderful thing and he

deserves credit for it. Having said

that,

>> Except

>> exactly right. Having said that, is

should that power reside in a private

citizen that has no government or

electoral oversight?

>> But look, it's a ton of economic growth.

The banks made a [ __ ] ton of money. You

have a lot of people

4,000 people became millionaires on

Friday.

>> I get it. I hope they're better better

at it. I just think I'm not even Musk is

one thing, but I'm worried about others

that are quite so broad. I just like I

always whenever I see a box, I think the

Yule Lanes the Yule Lanes u l i n a I

don't know how to pronounce it, but

they're like huge givers to crazy

right-wing causes. And so I just I'm

like oh God the boxes the this the that.

Anyway, I I just hope that they

that they are

>> United problem. Yeah, I I I I I I

>> they're charitable. That's that's what I

hope. Anyway, let's go on a quick break.

We come back. We'll talk about the Trump

administration coming for Anthropic yet

again.

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>> Scott, we're back with more news.

Anthropic has had 90 minutes to take

down its most powerful models, Mythos

and Fable, which is Mythos but the

public version of it, on Friday at the

request of the government who cited a

national security threat. The Trump

administration issued an order barring

all foreign nationals from having

access, including Anthropic's own non-US

employees, including there's some a lot

of them at the top, essentially forcing

the company to take it offline. The

decision was probably made after a

conversation with Amazon's

Andy Jassy, who told officials

researchers in his company got Fable to

provide information to be used in cyber

attacks. Anthropic went sent staff to

Washington to meet with the White House

officials to try to fix the dispute. I'm

sorry, I just think they're waiting for

an excuse here to get Anthropic.

I think maybe Jassy might have said

this, but the minute they could, they

jumped on Anthropic and and of course

Anthropic's making the argument that

every other model can do this, too,

and they're just cherry-picking. By the

way, um the company is also being sued

for its $200 a month AI plans, with

consumers alleging it oversold the usage

allowances it offered.

So, so that's that. And then, by the

way, a coalition of state attorney

generals have opened an investigation

into OpenAI. The company was served with

a subpoena seeking documents related to

its activities and impact on users,

including activity related to minors and

seniors handling of health data and

company policies. Earlier this month,

Florida became the first state to file a

lawsuit against Open AI and Sam Altman

alleging the two knowingly released an

unsafe product. Um

That's an interesting That's a separate

thing, but this Anthropic attack by the

White House is really interesting. Of

course, they were just waiting for

something to come at them as usual.

David Sacks just lies in wait.

>> I have mixed emotions here cuz I think

it's a good thing. I'd like to think

that the government's involvement in

acting crisply around the threats of AI

is overdue. So, I applaud the government

moving in crisply and saying,

"We need to shut this down until we

understand it better." I I applaud that.

The problem is I don't trust these

people. I don't know what their

motivations are. I don't know

[clears throat] if they're genuinely

concerned about the well-being

>> No, the answer is no.

>> or if this is just politically motivated

trying to shut down one company because

you have political donors at the other.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's supposedly I just got off

>> Precisely.

>> I just had Ian Bremmer on the pod

talking about Iran. He said at the G7

meeting,

the shutdown of Anthropic was a bigger

topic than the memo of understanding in

Iran because if you're a foreign company

and you've deeply integrated Anthropic

into your your your workflow and all of

a sudden it's turned off,

you know, it it's like, "Okay, does this

mean the government has a kill switch

for AI that when whoever it is is angry

at them just turns it off?"

>> That's right.

>> is Again, this all comes down to the

same [ __ ] thing.

You don't trust these people. You don't

>> isn't there a congressional like that

everybody has to live by it? Why Why

does Andy Jassy make have a

conversation? I'd like to hear from Andy

[ __ ] Jassy right now. What did he

say? What does he like Why did he He's

They're an investor in Anthropic, by the

way. So, I'm not sure I even trust that

story. I don't even know if I trust the

Jassy part of the story. I'd like him to

speak out um publicly about it. But,

yeah, I agree. I don't trust these

[ __ ] and I think they're doing it to

kneecap Dario cuz he's been a nuisance

for them.

>> Yeah, he's not their chosen He's the one

that said no on self-healing well or,

you know, on on weapons or privacy

violations. So, he's on their [ __ ] list.

And uh you know, I love the idea, but

Dario and Anthropic would say, perhaps

correctly, that these same jailbreaks or

things that the reason why they shut

down are available on other models.

>> Right.

>> So,

>> they're not a perfect company. I get

that they're being sued for over

allowances. I just think there's going

to be

They are in the front, and they are not

going along with this administration.

So, you're going to see all manner of

nonsense attacking them. And some of it,

you know, it'll you know, I don't think

they're perfect. I don't think, you

know, I think he can be a little bit,

you know, righteous. But, at least it's

righteous for the right things on some

level. And

I just think this is a As I said, this

is not about national security. This is

about a beef and a rumble between

different Silicon Valley interests.

That's it seems to be.

>> We We need

We need a panel or a regulatory body

that's bipartisan with experts,

economists, philosophers who say,

"Okay, maybe it shouldn't take 10 years

to release an AI model for the public,

similar to the way it does for drugs,

but we need 30 days in an institution or

an agency represented by

that briefs Congress that says, 'Okay,

before you release anything, it's got to

go through this 30-60-90 day screening

where we bang the [ __ ] out of it, and

everyone is subject to the same

regulatory approval.' And that kind of

regulatory certainty

is good for the economy. It's good for

companies. They want to know what rules

they're playing by. They don't want to

have to think, 'Jesus Christ, so I got

to go to a [ __ ] UFC fight or fear

that they're going to turn off my

you know, my next version of this

product. But supposedly it's created

chaos abroad because a lot of companies

>> is, yeah.

>> And even defense departments and NATO

members decide to use Anthropic into

their scenario planning or or to figure

out when to turn off and on power that

runs into hospitals and all of a sudden

they've got to go, "Okay, you mean one

one guy based on criteria we can't

figure out has has a again a kill switch

on an important technology?"

>> But to me, if you read David Sacks's

stupid excuses, he's such a pompous ass

and I just trust none of this. They do

not care about all of us. They care

about this Silicon Valley beep and you

can feel like the hand of others here.

It's just It's just you don't trust him.

Like you said, I think you put your nose

on it. Now, what's more serious are

these lawsuits, you know, in terms of

how good their product is and whether

it's accurate or not. I just That's to

me where some of the real issues are

going to come with all these companies,

all the social media companies,

everybody else. It's impact, whether

it's data centers or miners or bad

health stuff or bad data, but unsafe

products is actually where I think the

action is.

>> This is also I think this is headed one

way and that is

it'll it'll probably result in the

administration

putting all sorts of restrictions on

like Chinese open-weight models trying

to come into the US and disrupt what is

becoming an increasingly difficult

case to justify the ROI on these these

token expenditures.

And so

this is this is this is again going to

take on its own sort of tariff feel and

geopol- It helps a company like Mistral

out of France

um who is not subject to the same

things. Although supposedly that's

inferior technology. I'll be very

curious I wouldn't be surprised at all

if all of a sudden Trump decides these

Chinese that American firms can't use

these open-weight models coming out of

China. But this is the next big

political football, I think, is who and

how gets to use American AI firms and

what AI

what AI models are allowed into the US.

>> Yeah. Yeah, perhaps. I do think these

safe safety things are are building with

parents and everyone else. I just do. I

think that as you said, the brand AI has

gotten so many hits. It's almost like

this idiot who got hit in the head and

said racist and misogynistic things at

the UFC fight. It just is getting It is

getting a bad rap and it There's going

to be legal implications, I think, cuz I

think people are upset and angry and

it's not as Mr. Wonderful

says about his data centers, the Chinese

fault. It's your own.

All right. Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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distributor.

>> Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and

fails. Would you like me to go first?

>> You go first, Kara.

>> This is a I'm going to do a win and a

fail together because one of the things

around this UFC thing is Meta's used the

opportunity to do PR for itself, which

fine, I don't really care, around this

giving blind veterans these glasses,

right? These glasses that help them

navigate. I think this is a great thing.

I don't care if it's a PR thing. I don't

care any manner of it. I do think I

I know and Amanda was actually telling

me that this is really helpful for

people who have

disabilities like blindness, these

glasses. I think all of them, not just

Meta's, but everybody's, not these

Ray-Ban ones, but I suspect Apple will

have a lot of utility for people who are

blind. I think it's very exciting and I

think it's a good thing. Look, I don't

mind if you use PR for doing that. Like

I get it and it's fine and it helps

people and I and I love I'd give it a

lot of this was an effort pushed by Dina

Powell who they just hired and good

effort and they should do a lot of these

things. Non-partisan would be great.

They don't have to just mob up with

Trump all the time. They should go with

everybody to do these things to help

people. And again, I don't care if they

get a PR win off of it. That's fine by

me. What I think is that them being do

doing it during this UFC fight took the

focus off the veterans in that way. You

know what I mean? Because it just is

like

uh

God, didn't you expect that something

terrible would happen here? And so I as

I said, I really do admire Mark's

like of MMA. It's kind of like the one

of the most human things about him. But

um but it just was like here's something

that's for good and then you get this

this

idiot say something and create all

manner of problems for them. Um so it

was it was a good attempt and then it

got drowned out. Something good got

drowned out. And again, I don't even

mind if you trot Ivanka Trump out. I

just I don't love it, but whatever for

these kind of things. But if it helps

these veterans, a good thing. I just

think it got in the way of what the

veterans they were trying to do for

veterans, which I think is a real thing.

Um but they should do a lot more

non-partisan things that helps the rest

of us.

Um but any you know, as they say,

anything Trump touches turns to [ __ ] and

that's I felt that. My dad's a was a

veteran. I have a lot of family members

who are veterans. I wanted to be a

veteran. As I always say, I would have

been being I would have been an admiral

about to be fired by Trump right now if

that if I had had my career choice. Um

but it was I I I really felt bad that

this was got sucked up into this

ridiculous nonsense at the White House

with UFC. Thank you.

>> I just the vision of you being an

admiral I don't

>> an excellent admiral.

>> Yeah, I don't

>> I would. By the way, Dana White's on the

board of Meta, too. Just so you're

aware.

>> Uh okay. Do you have

Was that a win NFL?

>> That's win and fail because I was like,

uh here's something good and here it got

sullied and the story as usual went off

onto another way. And I don't blame the

media for it. I don't blame This guy

said something so terrible and grotesque

at the White House. This is where this

woman used to live, you [ __ ] Like

back off. Like and say you're sorry. Say

you're [ __ ] sorry for that piece of

[ __ ] Anyway, go ahead.

>> My win here is um

>> [clears throat]

>> uh

the social media ban in the UK.

>> Oh, yes.

>> Britain just announced the world's

strictest teen social media law going

further than Australia, the country that

uh inspired all of this.

Uh Prime Minister Keir Starmer announced

Monday that TikTok, Instagram, YouTube,

Snapchat, Facebook, and X will be banned

from offering services to under 16s.

As someone who has a 15-year-old in the

house, I can tell you that I think the

most

negative, anxiety-inducing thing in our

household

is our

uh

uh

15-year-old's usage of social media.

And people say, "Well, that's a

parenting thing." No, it

they they pay for the tube with their

phone. If you tell them not to use

social media, they're isolated from

their friends and become more depressed.

This needs to be a collective ban, and

that's what the Prime Minister here did.

There is no reason,

no justification for anyone under the

age of 16 being on any social media

platform. Some people will say, "What

about YouTube?" Fine, put out a kids

put out a kids version of YouTube. I'm

down with that. But this goes into

effect in spring of 2027.

Um overnight it curfews and infinite

scroll limits under consideration.

Uh

or excuse me, overnight curfews and

infinite scroll limits are under

consideration. Liability falls on

platforms, not on children or parents.

Uh it's consistent with Australia's

approach, which finds companies up to

50 million for non-compliance. It needs

to be a percentage of revenues, I would

argue.

And then uh Britain's existing online

safety act is already cut visits to porn

sites by a third and raised the share of

children encountering age checks online

from 30% to 47%.

Spain Spain, Greece, Slovenia, and

France are already pursuing similar

bans.

And Australia's 2020 December 2025 laws

have officially triggered a global

cascade. And a study of

18-to-24-year-olds found out

that not using social media for 1 week

significantly reduced symptoms of

anxiety by

and insomnia by 15%. This isn't just a

win for

uh teen mental health. This is This is a

win for democracy. The more time you

spend on social media, the less you

believe in democracy.

>> Can you Can I One thing you pointed If

they had gone and tried to make a safe

product, like that's You know what

they're going to do? They're going to

say it's not going to work in Australia.

It's not going to work. That's their

argument. It's never about the thing.

It's never about that this is

deleterious. And by the way, speaking of

which, that movie's coming out, The

Social Network, which is the part two of

The Social Network. Uh Jeremy um what's

his name? Guy Strong from from

Succession is playing Mark Zuckerberg.

As I noted last week, why do they never

talk about the thing? They just say how

it doesn't work and how it does this and

this and that, but they never want to

talk about the thing, which is are you

hurting people with your unsafe

products?

>> But go ahead.

>> Yeah, but again, I I I don't think we

should fall into the trap of believing

that the owners of McDonald's

or Ford are going to figure out are

going to focus on anything other than

what car do Americans want to drive?

What's the design?

>> Fair.

>> And we don't give a [ __ ] that it gives

you diabetes. We just want basically a

food orgasm in your mouth.

It's up to us as voters, and we have

done this

to implement, to appoint really smart

people who dedicated their lives to

government and regulatory concerns to

protect the well-being of the of of the

Commonwealth.

If we're waiting on

these companies to start thinking about

the safety and harms of their product,

good [ __ ] luck.

>> True, but look at the cost we pay for

obesity and like this like why do we

keep doing this to ourselves? That's the

thing.

>> I I agree, but when you say we doing it

to ourselves

>> It's not the voters, I think.

>> capitalist system is companies are

rapacious, engage in full body contact

violence, not worried about other

people, worried about

getting a product that commands margin.

And quite frankly, that works as long as

you have regulatory bodies ensuring that

opiates don't gut,

you know, small towns in Appalachia. We

can ask the question, we can all hope

for

uh guys in charge of AI with hushed

tones who just adopted a baby boy, and

he's concerned about AI, and this really

attractive woman who says we need to do

better, and we we are open to

regulation. They're all [ __ ] [ __ ]

And we have built a whorehouse, and the

whorehouse works, but you have to have a

cop.

>> Can I call you on that? We have built a

whorehouse, and the whorehouse works. Go

ahead.

>> whorehouse works.

>> That's your next book, The Whorehouse

Works. But go ahead.

>> Well, it's funny. I was just at a

wedding in Alys Beach, and the Rosewood

there used to be an orphanage, and then

a and then a whorehouse, and I thought,

well, that's a pipeline.

>> Um [laughter]

Oh my god, I can't believe you just said

that.

I think I know that hotel, but

>> is I get mad at us. They're doing their

job.

And we keep we keep trying to shame them

into thinking about the safety of their

product.

>> You don't think

you think McDonald's is just going to

decide we need to have salads? It's just

the right thing to do. They did. It

didn't work.

Yeah.

>> Remember?

>> Well, I mean, anyways, we need we need

economic incentives and regulations that

punish these people and create

disincentives. But my win, Prime

Minister Keir Starmer.

My fail, I just spent the most wonderful

week in

northern Europe. I was in Stockholm and

then I was in Amsterdam.

And Sweden is growing it's kind of the

non-European European country. It's

growing 2 and 1/2%

It is actually produced despite having

the population of North Carolina. It's

produced companies including King,

Klarna, Spotify, Ericsson.

They

produce a ton of unicorns.

>> Very clever people.

>> And they have the industrial might or

productivity of Germany

with the some of the innovation of

Silicon Valley and and the social

policies of Bernie Sanders.

>> Yeah.

>> And then you go to Amsterdam where they

have become kind of the ground zero for

data centers in Europe. They have ASML

if Nvidia is the picks and shovels ASML

makes the picks and shovels.

Productivity is up 2 and 1/2%. The

economy is strong there. These are some

of the wealthiest countries in the

nation and they settle an argument and

this is my fail. America has tried to

convince its population that you can't

have billionaires and universal health

care. [ __ ]

>> Yes, thank you.

>> prove you can have really wealthy people

and you can have

>> Yes, yes, indeed.

>> universal pre-K and you can have child

services and I spent some time with the

the founder and then the people running

Spotify this weekend

and they

they were all in the valley, they all

moved back to Sweden where they are

paying much higher taxes and they're

fine to do it because they trust that

the government is going to spend their

money well.

They trust that being able to ride a

bike to work and have a kid with special

needs is going to be taken care of and

they have a and I did not see a single

homeless person by the way in Stockholm.

Granted, that's probably not indicative

of all of

Sweden. And granted, do they have

problems with immigration and and

housing prices that bring you know, that

follow prosperity? 100%. But we need to

stop in America believing that there's a

myth that inequality

that inequality and billionaires and

unicorns demand

a rapacious lack of a safety net.

>> the same thing about Korea when I was

there. They're healthier. Oh my god,

it's so universal health care for one,

but the other stuff, I agree with you.

Great one.

>> Anyways, I love I had such a nice time.

I was so blown away

>> I'm glad.

>> by Sweden and

my my I was actually at my best friend's

son's wedding, Jack Markman. He's an

incredibly impressive young man that

reminds me of my

he's like the mini me of my friend and I

had time I spent I did myself a favor. I

spent I went early and I left late and I

spent time in both of those places. They

are such incredibly

>> They are fun.

>> lovely places and

>> Anyways, they trusted their governments

are going to spend their money

correctly. They trust each other. They

trust there's also really strong

governance such that they attract

foreign investment cuz they know they're

not going to get [ __ ] by a corrupt

government or a corrupt politician.

>> convicted in Norway the prince's I think

step

>> Saw that.

>> I mean, they just look, when you do bad

things, you get no matter where you are,

you get not all the time.

>> Well, okay, Prince Andrew.

>> I know. I agree with you on that one. I

don't even

>> I agree, but it's heading that

direction. It's heading that

>> But he was removed. I mean, they kicked

him out of

>> I know.

>> They they defrocked him or whatever the

[ __ ] they do with the

>> no, he's he's being investigated

finally, but you're right, 100% fair

point.

>> Oh, he'll pay a bigger price than any of

those billionaires on that island.

>> That's true. That is that's true. agree.

>> my fail is this false dichotomy we've

talked Americans into believing that you

can't have billionaires and really

robust capitalism and growth and not

have universal health care and child

care. You absolutely can and the

Netherlands and Sweden produce that or

prove that in spades.

>> Yep. And in America you don't have to

insult a very impressive black woman in

order to feel like more like a man. You

in fact act like a mensch.

>> What a [ __ ] idiot.

>> And by the way, Michelle Obama does

demonstrate more masculinity, service,

strength than that dude.

You know,

anyway, I I can't even I saw that and I

thought, Jesus Christ, like what?

>> Thank you.

>> What? What the

like what what does that guy have

daughters?

>> I don't know. Does he have any of them?

>> Are you going to wait for some [ __ ]

idiot to start saying stupid [ __ ] about

your daughter?

>> Yeah, I just did.

>> Anyways,

>> Uh we don't like them.

>> Kara Swisher, take over.

>> thank you. By the way, I like MMA, but

[ __ ] that guy anyway. And by the way,

Dina,

why don't you say something stronger?

Like even stronger. Like kick that

[ __ ] out. Okay, we want to hear from

you. Send us your questions about

business, tech, or whatever's on your

mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot

send a question for the show or call

855-51-pivot.

Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe

this week on on, I spoke to Peter

Chernin,

one of the producers of the hit film

Backrooms. He talked this legendary

media executive entertainment media

executive. He talked about how studios

are rushing to sign YouTubers and why

that's a mistake. Let's listen to a

clip.

>> Every single meeting in Hollywood over

the last 10 days has been find me my

YouTuber.

That's not the smartest thing on earth.

You know, it's no different than saying

find me a sequel to something else.

You know, it it's worth noting we spent

3 years

on this project. You know, we spent

a period of time chasing it. We spent a

long time working on the script. We

spent another year in production.

Um and you know, it's not just saying

bet on a YouTuber. It's not just saying

bet on some It's betting on very

specific piece of content and betting on

a very specific piece of talent.

>> He is a class act and so smart. Anyway,

that's the show. Thanks for listening to

Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe

to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on

Friday.