And I came out and there was like the

day I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna render

that fat." And I start looking around

like, "What are these tracks?" And then

you slowly start to have something dawn

on you. Like those are Wolverine tracks.

I mean, they're not huge, like 40 lbs or

whatever, but they fight off wolf packs.

They take down full grown moose. And I

was my first time really dealing with

one like that. And he kept surprising me

with how bold he was, you know, kind of

figure, okay, that'll take care of it.

And then all of a sudden, whoa, right in

front of me. You know, he run by and

grab a chunk of meat and run off. No

way.

>> Jordan, great to see you, man.

>> Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you.

>> And we've we've upgraded our interaction

to in person

>> because for those who are listening, we

had some audio glitches, some

technological woes, and we just decided

to do it in person. So, here we are.

>> And I have twice the number of pooches,

meaning two versus one since you last

saw me. Got a got a stray adopted a few

days ago. We're also drinking what

people might think are ridiculously

heavy pores of whiskey, but this is not

whiskey.

This is Lake Missoula Tea Company. Lake

Missoula Breakfast. It is delicious.

Just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of

a topper, let's call it.

>> Yeah, we just both arrived at some city

we're not from. So,

>> at high altitude,

>> and uh we're just getting back into the

groove of the conversation. So, we are

going to get to Russia, but first I

wanted you to and these tie together, I

suppose, explain what we have here on

the table besides the T because you made

the joke, you know, if the interview is

not going very well, might as well have

this

>> handle this way.

>> Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you.

What are we looking at?

>> What we're looking at is an axe. It's

one I've kind of designed

specifically using the knowledge and

experience I have had in Siberia in

particular with the native folks and

stuff. So, it's got some bit unique

features, some that I've really grown to

love. So, in the forest, first off, just

to set the foundation, the one tool you

need is an axe to give yourself a chance

at survival cuz

>> more than a knife.

>> More than a knife. You can do all the

things you can do with a knife. You

know, you could get a fire, you could

build some traps, you can get through

the ice, you can, you know, it just kind

of gives you the ability to do

everything. Maybe not as well as you

want, but as the natives would say, the

one tool you need is an axe. And I

concur. So, the problem though is that a

lot of people in the States don't know

what a good axe is. And so, you'll go

buy one at Lowe's and go home. It just

doesn't do the job you need. So, I

designed one that has all the features I

like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head

shape with some of the Aeni

modifications.

>> Being the native are the native nomadic

folks that I lived with, they live in

the woods all the time, so they kind of

know what they like. So, some of the

features of this axe in particular, most

most interestingly, is it's sharpened

from one side.

>> It's like a single bevel. It's a single

bevel grind, which means you have to

have a right or a left-handed axe based

on what you are. But what that allows

you to do is when you're in the woods,

very often you'll be carving things, you

know, whether you're building a sleigh

or building a trap or building whatever

it might be. And it really helps it work

as a planer and really helps it do

accurate work that way. It also on most

trees that you chop down in the woods,

they're quite narrow. You're rarely

chopping down a giant, you know, cedar

tree. You're you're going to be chopping

down things about the size of your arm

and a couple swings with this bevel

design and you can slice right through

them. So, it's a really efficient way of

>> assuming it is matched to your dominant

hand, right? So that so that it's

sticking instead of deflecting.

>> Exactly. Exactly. So, if you picture a

bevel and hitting against a tree, if

it's ground off on that side, there's a

bit of a deflection. And by grinding it

from the opposite side, when it hits

that tree, it just bites right in. I

guess you have some experience with

deflection.

>> Deflection. Yes, we do. And and yeah,

just to finalize a few last points,

you'll notice on a lot of American axes,

they have a narrow eye. And that means

>> And can you describe the eye? The eye is

basically if you had the axe, what would

you call it? Axe blade, right? There's

the hole through which the handle would

fit. Mhm. On a Siberian axe, it's quite

wide, which allows you in the field to

repair it with a with a solid, you know,

piece of wood, and you can slide the

handle through it like a tomahawk from

the top. The handle goes all the way on.

That way, when you swing, the pressure

is always tightening the head. You don't

need wedges and all that, which is a

cool design. There's a bunch of other

little nuances to the design. I don't

want to bore you too long, but Tim

knows. He's been up in the woods with

me, and we got to use it a bunch. I got

to show them how to use.

>> It's incredible how versatile an axe is.

I mean, the number of ways that you used

it. Also, just side note, I never really

thought about this, but for people who

are wondering about this bevel

>> description that I gave, you could think

of, there are certain chef's knives,

especially western chef's knives, that

are double beveled. They're they're

sharpened from both sides in. So, if you

buy a a cheap knife sharpener,

>> they're it generally looks like a V,

>> right? You're sharpening it from both

sides. But if you look at a lot of

Japanese chef's knives, single bevel,

given the way they use it in cutting

fish kind of horizontally.

>> Mhm.

>> And I recall seeing you when we first

went out our first day in the wilderness

in Montana

>> and

just a quick sidebar, one of my friends

because the forecast looked fantastic.

It was a bluebird day. Oh yeah. and he's

like it was his first time going out on

a real camping trip and he's like I

think I might just leave the rain gear

at the at the rental spot and I was like

that is the last thing you would just

put at the bottom you know like stick it

somewhere and then it was torrential

downpour

>> for a legit downpour

>> we got hammered and even though it

wasn't particularly cold you end up

feeling cold very very quickly

>> and when we arrived at I suppose the

first camp which maybe was sort of a

premature stop because of the cold and

the rain.

>> Yeah, it was pretty chilly.

>> And it was incredible how quickly number

one, my friend Mike and I both were

having trouble zippering our jackets

even though it was not even winter.

>> Mhm. And then watching you use the axe

to maybe you could describe this, but

when you take a larger stick, people

think of fire building and they think of

perhaps having like the fatwood and then

you have some type of cotton ball or

tinder, right? But when you're out in

the woods, you don't necessarily sure

you could pack these things. But if

you're improvising, what blew me away

was how you use the axe to create

feathers.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Can you explain what that is?

>> You want a really sharp axe once you get

control of it. You know, they're

dangerous. We'll go to the deflection

stories and but once you're a master of

the axe, you can go when a downpour,

torrential downpour, chop down a dead

standing tree because it, you know, you

might see dead trees on the ground, but

it's amazing, particularly in the spring

when they've spent a whole winter

absorbing moisture. It's amazing how wet

they will be. And so dead standing, find

something, chop it down, and then split

it. Chop a smaller piece out of the

middle, and then split that open. And

once you got it split open, you're to

that dry wood, and it never gets wet

because it was standing. And so you then

split that piece open a couple times.

You get a nice edge on it. And then with

the axe, you can you can just run your

axe down that wood with the right amount

of control and practice and make some

really fine curls that'll catch a spark.

So, you don't even need a lighter or you

don't need anything like that.

>> And what was also counterintuitive to me

is you don't even have to take those off

of

>> Mhm.

>> the split piece of this internal wood.

>> Easier if you don't. It's easier if you

leave a big bundle of this curl.

>> So, imagine imagine guys if you would

you have let's just for simplicity sake,

right? Say that you have a fully intact

log of wood that's about the thickness

of your arm. you then, and there are

very particular ways to do this safely,

right? Like like leaning it against a

larger

>> fallen tree.

>> Uh

>> there's a lot of nuance.

>> There's a lot of nuance, but you split

that in half. So now you have, if you're

looking kind of down the barrel of each

of these split pieces, they're they're

half circles,

>> right? And then you break those into

>> you chop those into even

>> quarters.

>> Quarters, let's say. Then you stand one

up and you're using the axe, which takes

a lot of fine motor control to kind of

shave down these thin pieces of wood

that then curl as you're pushing it

down. And then you go a little bit

higher. You do the same thing. You do it

again. You do it again. You end up with

all of these. It's almost looks like a

fiddle head fern or something where

they're all rolled together.

>> In fire making too, in survival in the

woods, it's great to have a lighter.

It's great to have matches. They all

make it so much easier to start a fire,

but they'll occasionally fail you and

they'll fail you when you need them the

most. And so I always carry also just a

ferro rod, which is very, you know, it

just makes sparks. Basically, you scrape

it and it makes sparks. But with that,

you need fine paper thin material to

catch the sparks and light it up. And

that's what you're making with the axe

curls. And so we were in a big downpour,

you know, and and even that can be

difficult because when it's really

raining, you know, you got to be really

careful that you made all these curls

that they don't get soaked before you

get the spark on them. So we made a

quick tripod, draped a tarp over it, and

tucked under that to actually build our

fire. Made a few sparks and got that

burning. You can then make some not so

fine curls, make some really quick rough

ones and throw that on top. it catches

and pretty soon you have a fire which is

amazing how lifegiving it is in those

situations. Everybody's depressed and

wet

>> particular like soaking wet hands aren't

really functioning and then the fire

once you get a critical mass and you're

able to warm your hands

>> you know my buddy Mike I remember he

said he's like yeah no wonder we

worshiped fire for so long obvious

>> all right so

>> so this this axe and I'm thrilled to

have one of these and we'll put up an

additional shorter video on my YouTube

channel which is just Tim Ferris. What

is your YouTube channel?

>> Hobo Jordo actually

>> and we will explain why.

>> I have a Instagram at that too which

I'll put videos up on.

>> Yeah. So we'll put up some videos of the

axe and maybe have you demo some of the

more

>> non-obvious ways of using it. Before we

get to the rewind and looking at how on

earth you ended up in Russia,

>> let's let's not let go of the loose end

of the deflection story.

>> Yeah. So, so what does it look like if

you get overenthusiastic and you don't

quite have the control yet?

>> An axe has a learning curve, especially

when you have a really well-made axe and

you're swinging it hard to get the jobs

you need done.

When I did go to Russia, I was a little

in over my head. Like, I had grown up on

a farm and used an axe more than

probably your typical American, but not

like they do over there by any means.

And so,

>> I mean, these axes are as sharp. They're

sharper than most kitchen knives you

would find in an Airbnb. I mean, like

they are very, very sharp.

>> Yep. And so,

they just use them way more than I

would. And I was trying to keep up, you

know, I'm trying to be productive and in

doing so, I was in a hurry. So, this is

going to take a slight bit of a

backstory, but the natives over there

will build these huge, you know, 30

kilometer circumference fences out of

only logs interlocking. They have no

nails, nothing up there because there

are none around. And so there's a

specific technique to doing that. Partly

that involves chopping a tree down and

then you step your foot on it and then

you split that tree on that cut end, you

know? So you're taking a big swing and

swinging right where your foot sort of

is. And that tree is not flat like it

was cut with a saw. It's got an angle

like it was cut with a axe. And so

there's a real deflection possibility

there if you don't have all the if you

don't have it down. And so I'm trying to

keep a smack hitting my boot. And you

know, we're in the middle of Siberia. I

can't get another rubber boot. We're

working in swamps. It was very

disappointing. Went home, had a cut on

my foot, you know, back to home, which

is a teepee. We had a cut on my foot.

Kind of bandaged it up and tried to

patch my boot as best I could. Go back

out. Next day, same thing. And and make

a long story short, I chopped the heck

out of my boots. And finally, one of the

native guys was like, "Hey, you know

what, Jordan? I think you know, five

years ago, I left a boot upside down on

a stump." like, you know, five miles

that way. And so we spent a whole day.

We got our reindeer, packed them up,

rode these reindeer up and over the

mountain. Sure enough, there's a stump

with a boot upside down and these are

natural rubber boots. And so I could

like, it was smaller than my foot, but I

could squeeze my foot in there. And I

was like, great, this is awesome. Back

at it in another day or two and swing. I

chopped it. And I was so frustrated. I

mean, I it was annoying that I cut my

boot open. I got mad and I swung with

one hand at the tree and then here comes

defle, you know, deflects off and rips

right into my knee and I hammered my

knee. I in the long run I went and got

it checked out many months later, but it

was, you know, I mostly severed the MCL,

split the bone. It was a quite a gnarly

injury and I I was stuck out there. I

had to crawl back to the teepee. I knew

I was kind of in shock, so I was like, I

got to get back to the tepee before I

feel this, which was a couple kilometers

away. So, I kind of just bailed out,

told everybody like, "Hey, I'm going

back to teepee."

And then I got there and man, it was a

lot of pain. I I had had surgery on my

other knee not long before. So, that was

my good leg I chopped. And then and I

was stuck in that teepee for several

days. I couldn't even move. I had to

like even to poop. I had a plastic bag.

I had to like go in that and then roll

to the edge of the teepee and stuff it

out. I couldn't even stand on either

leg. It was pretty miserable. And they

were out building that fence. So, it was

a few days later they they finally came

back and and I was still recovering on

TV floor.

>> What did you do or what did they do in

terms of quote unquote first aid?

They're like, "Here's a here's a pus

made of god knows what. Slap it on, walk

it off, you'll be fine."

>> Which is mostly what it was. It was a

very simple. We went over to a spruce

tree that was bleeding a bunch of sap

out, you know, and went over there and

scraped a bunch of that sap off with the

axe and then just put that on my wound.

This is right at the start right when I

got it. Packed the wound with that sap.

Then I went back and shockingly enough,

we're out in the woods in the dirt and

the rusty axe or whatever. It never got

infected at all. Healed healed up as

best it could. Few days later when they

came back, Andre, one of the native

guys, brought me a little cane he carved

for me, which was nice. And so then the

next couple days I caned around and

then, you know, got to where I could get

back out on the fence again and help

out. But it was quite a lesson. You

know, that was my first time with him

and yeah, I was in over my head a little

bit. High learning curve.

>> Yeah, that's a memorable lesson.

>> Memorable lesson. I was very I was

pretty miserable in that teepee for a

few days.

>> So, it sounds like you got close to

quite a few of the locals. Oh, yeah. Can

you describe hopefully this is enough of

a cue because you told me about this

moment we're out in the woods in the

mountains but it involves we picked up a

few Russian words on this trip and I

think one of them was during

>> so if that's enough of a cue in terms of

warm welcome.

>> Oh yeah.

>> What was your your first arrival like?

This is probably 2005 or six, but I was

heading over to Russia the first time

and didn't know what to expect. But we

land in the Moscow airport and instead

of having like a bus or something come

up to our airplane, it was like a farm

tractor, this blue farm tractor and a

wooden trailer. And I was like, "No way.

Get off the plane." And you know, we're

climbing into this trailer. And so, of

course, I took a picture and this

officer standing over there, Durac,

which means like idiot. No, the first

greeting of Russia came over to my

phone, made me delete it, and welcome to

Russia. And then uh so that was fitting.

>> I guess I guess it's not that different

from how you would probably get treated

at JFK.

>> Yeah, start taking pictures. Fair

enough. Fair enough. A little bit of

cultural ignorance.

All right. So, let's let's go back then

>> to

the impetus, the catalyst just as a

skeletal backstory that we're going to

dive into. But where did you grow up?

>> I grew up in Idaho in on a farm in North

Idaho for the most part. And

>> so, did you grow up learning Russian

from family members, then studying in

school and then going to Russia? No, I

never thought particularly a lot about

Russia, although I was really into

history and so I'd read about a lot

about World War II, Russian war memoirs,

you know, so I read and really was

impacted by the Gulag Archipelago. So I

had a familiarity with Russia, but it

was never a destination that I had

thought about. Lived a fairly typical

beginning to life. Got a job when I was

13. Worked worked worked. And then when

I was about 18, my brother invited me to

ride ride freight trains, you know. So

that kind of sent me on a

>> So we're going to skip forward from

there and come back.

>> Mhm.

>> To why?

>> Let's do it.

>> Hobo Jordo.

>> Exactly.

>> So what on earth happened

that led to actually getting on a plane?

>> You know, I grew up in a Christian

household and I had seen the fruit of

that path in my life. I'd seen it in

people around me, my family history, you

know, I really valued it and it was

really meaningful to me. But as I was,

you know, a teenager and grown up had a

lot of questions that I hadn't had

satisfactorily answered. And so I found

myself, although I really valued

Christianity and saw it as very good, I

found myself in a place where I was

struggling to connect with it on any

level. And so

I was in a fairly dark place as a young

man there and I remember at that time I

had read this particular verse and it

basically said he who follows a path of

righteousness and is in the darkness

continue. And that struck me at the time

cuz like okay there's people that try to

do the right thing and are still in

darkness and that so that's okay.

But it didn't answer a lot of the

questions I had and

I didn't want to bulldoze it all because

I had seen that it was good. So, so and

I also knew I was young and

>> What do you mean by bulldo it?

>> Well, I didn't want to take my faith and

Christianity and everything that it

meant and just

>> discard it.

>> Say this is Yeah, I'm going to discard

it and go my own way as a 18-year-old.

>> What types of questions did you have?

Yeah, they were actually fairly simple.

And and this goes to the next answer,

but I had my two main questions was one

like surely though your earth is not

6,000 years old.

And then two was I just had a hard time

matching up Old Testament ethics with

Christ's message. And I just didn't know

how to do those things.

>> And so I had a lot of what I would call

cultural baggage. There's a lot of

baggage with my faith. But because I

recognize it as good, I like was like,

I'm going to try to stick with it, but I

have to separate the baby from the

bathwater. And that's kind of a daunting

task because it's kind of a lifelong

journey of faith. But I was given a

great boost by the fact that actually

Jesus did. He said in one part of the

New Testament, he says, "What's the to

give a summary, but what's the point of

the law and the prophets? Like what is

all this for?" And he says, "Love the

Lord your God with all your heart and

love your neighbor as yourself." So, I

was shocked when I read it because I was

like, "Wow, wait a second. He takes all

the bath water and throws it out for you

and leaves you the baby."

>> Love the Lord your God with all your

heart and love the your neighbor as

yourself. That was the whole point of

the law and the prophets and everything

else. And so, I didn't have to figure

everything else out at the time. And I

was okay with seeing if that would play

out. And I, you know, like I said, I'd

seen enough fruit that I didn't want to

bulldoze it.

>> What kind of fruit had you seen for

yourself?

>> Um, you know, so like my mom for one was

I was like a real woman of faith and had

we always had like single moms come over

and live at the house and and she would

always work to like give gifts to

Christmas gifts to prisoners, children

that are out, you know, always had her

acting in the world in love. And in my

own life, you know, as a young man, you

got this thing, this ideal that's

pushing against your natural lust and

this and that. You know, it get kind of

throws a wrench into your natural

tendencies, whether that be to anger or

to, you know, it overlays your life with

like love,

>> you know, ideal. And I saw that as good.

So I chose at that time with those two

bits of information that like continue

even in the darkness and that I can like

put everything else on pause. The only

thing I need to to like accept or not

accept is like

>> love the Lord that that core. And I was

like I'm okay with accepting that. And

then I had this really deep prayer that

like someday I just wish I had the faith

to match. But I but I didn't actually

know if I per say believed it. I just

knew that

>> I'm going to do it anyway. So, in that

time, I was also traveling and going to

New York and going to Virginia and

running all around. And I had heard of

this opportunity to go to Russia and

build an orphanage. So, that was the

first thought of Russia. And again, it

was the distant and I didn't think much

of it, but I did pray, well, if you want

me to go, Lord, you know, you're going

to have to give me a sign because I

don't have any reason to go. And then I

went to New York. I was kind of a

flippant prayer. I think I went to New

York and met a Russian there and she had

offered to give me Russian lessons cuz

you know the the topic came up and I did

and I don't know what it was but I think

it was maybe you know either putting a

face to a vague idea or or a act of God

or whatever you want to call it but for

some reason it hit me really emotionally

like I would went back to my apartment

there my sister's apartment and just

would cry like, oh man, like I felt like

a heavy burden for it wasn't even

directed at her. It was directed at this

vague idea of going and I and I couldn't

tell even at the time I was like I could

I this could just be like I couldn't

quite explain it but it could be

explicable but also I could just accept

it as the kick that I prayed for. And so

I kind of did and again I still didn't

have the faith to match. Like I remember

going I was like okay I'm going to go

take it as an answer. I bought a ticket

for a year and headed over to I didn't

even really know where and there was a

guy over there, Justice Walker. Awesome

dude. He was heading up that orphanage

building project. And so that was my

only connection. And then I remember on

the train I was like it was hard for me

to go cuz I had like a girl I had a

crush on and all these I had like a job.

I wanted to pursue my education and

maybe become an officer in the Marines,

you know, all these things I had ideas

for. And then I was on this train and

had given all that up like on the

translate beer and rail like chugging

across and I remember just like Lord if

I could have one thing someday give me

faith to match my like of willingness to

sacrifice. Anyway, so that was my kick

into Russia kind of open-ended and I

just had one thing I was grasping like

love your neighbor as yourself. Let me

see if I can implement this in the world

in whatever place I am. I wasn't like

trying to per se

do anything other than that. Mhm.

>> Tell me if this is a fair read.

>> Mhm.

>> I've often said to myself and to other

people, and I absolutely

>> borrowed it from someone else. I did not

come up with this, but the general maxim

that it's easier to act your way into a

new way of thinking than to think your

way into a new way of acting.

>> Mhm.

>> So act as if.

>> Act as if. That's very much so.

>> Right. And I think particularly when

you're when you're dealing with

something like

apathy or love or you know like how do

you relate in the world like one thing

that was clear is like oh well actually

if you're going to actually love thing

it's an action you know and so going to

do this let's try to you know you can't

be

stagnant in that orientation

but I think that's a good summary. Yes.

How did you go from orphanage to Ivanki?

>> I went over to help Justice Walker build

this orphanage super and that was neat,

but I it was just me and he needed a lot

of groundwork laid and you know, wells

dug, but he eventually had a crew lined

up that was going to come over and

actually frame the thing and put the

thing up and do all that. So, I was

there kind of doing the ground work. We

dug a well and did all this stuff, but

it was still pretty preliminary.

And I was there for a few months. Really

enjoyed being in Russia, but I was

struck by the fact that I actually

really want to live with Russians, you

know, and

>> and so I told that to Justice and he was

like, "Well, let's call the neighboring

village." He called him up and the guy

was like, "Whoa, yeah, absolutely. Send

the American over. My wife's in the

hospital and I need someone to watch my

kids." So, how long had you been there

at that point?

>> 3 months, I would guess.

>> How much Russian did you speak at that

point?

>> Very little. Very little. I was trying

to pick it up, but that was part of the

problem is Justice was so much He was

one of the most well- read people I've

ever been with. So, it was so fun to

just talk to him and and so

>> it's a lot easier than working on your

ABCs.

>> Yeah, exactly. And so, I was not doing

it to the And when you first go to a

country, you're so struck by how much

you can communicate through

non-verbbally and then you all of a

sudden hit a wall. So you're like, okay,

I wanted to get past that as fast as

possible. So I went to that little

village and was fully immersed in a

Siberian village life right there. Yeah,

that was pretty funny cuz I hadn't dealt

with kids before or anything like that.

Euro had to go back to his lumber mill

job and so he was big Russian dude, you

know, that big handshake. Oh, so glad

you're here and showed me around. And

here's the kids, 5-year-old boy and a

2-year-old girl. you know, introduce,

have some tea. Then the next day, he's

already off to work. He pointed me where

the grocery store is. And so I was in

the deep end trying to take care of

these two kids. I'd never done that

before. Grocery shop for him. I didn't

even know the language. And that was my

splash into Russia proper, I guess, in

that regards.

>> And then how do you get into reindeer

territory?

>> So these guys, Yura had been to prison

before. And

>> who was that? Eur was the guy, sorry,

the Russian guy to live with. Yeah, the

big Russian

and he uh his neighbor was named was

Eager and he had also been to prison.

And these are all guys in Siberia with

pretty storied pasts. They really

enjoyed having me over there for one. I

was like really trying to just work hard

and it was so random for them to have an

American that they uh would kind of

tugof-war me back between their two

houses.

>> He had American.

>> Yeah.

So it was they both became like families

to me. You know, they both had kids and

both a lot of fun in different ways, but

Eager, the second family there, had been

in prison with a native fur trapper from

the far north. And they were really

close cuz they had like found God in

prison together. And so he was always

telling me, "You got to go north and

meet my fur trapping buddy." So after

that year of living in Russia, right at

the end of it, Europe, the trapper came

through town to sell furs and we met and

he invited me up to live with him. And

so I was like, I'm going to go home to

America, renew my visa, get some earn

some money, and then I'll come back. And

so I went back and headed straight

north, more or less. And then I was in

even more over my head.

>> So what was what was the first day like

when you land first day, first week when

you land in the far north? Oh, now this

is in Siberia proper.

>> Well, we've been in Siberia the whole

time, but it was just incrementally

further north in kind of central

Siberia.

>> How cold does it get in the northern?

>> Far north, you know, where I would end

up being with the nomads. It'd get to

5860,

like kind of the the cut off. But first

getting to the north, it's funny. Well,

one thing I was struck by when I

honestly when I got to Russia was

there's a lot of al drinking. Yeah. And

>> every bit I went further north, every

time I would get used to it at one

place, you know, I remember driving in a

village in the first village I was with

Justice and we're just cruising along on

a cold winter day and on in the bus and

it swerves around this guy laying in the

road, but we're out in the middle of

nowhere. I was like, "Whoa, like it's

cold out. We're going to stop." And the

lady across from me and I could, you

know, make out with my bad Russian.

She's like, "Ah, he's a drunk. He's

dead." I was like, "Whoa."

And so it was kind of intense, but you

kind of re-calibrate at the new norm.

And when I went to the next northern

village, reruck me again. I was like,

"Oh, there's chaos." And that first week

was was that cuz I was with Euro and he

was showing me around. And we go to this

first house and I mean I think even it

might have been even on the way from the

airport. But pick up some random drunk

guy and he's he like holds up his phone.

Listen to this. And just his wife just

chewing him out and cussing him out.

He's like that's the fury of a Russian

woman, you know, cuz he's miss been

missing for who knows how long.

>> Let's see how how can I summarize some

of what we we were talking about at

dinner last night.

>> Yeah,

>> correct me if I get anything wrong. Like

in the Avanki you have these sustenance

hunters, trappers, etc. with

encyclopedic

knowledge and where and wherewithal. I

mean it's it's just mindboggling, right?

I I haven't

>> had an opportunity to spend time in that

region of the world, but certainly in

Central and South America and Africa and

so on. When you start to look at let's

just say like Shangun trackers in South

Africa there are like levels and then

the Kalahari Bushman and then there are

levels and

>> it's unbelievable how fluent they are in

their environment.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> And at the same time many of these

groups have an Achilles heel.

>> That's what it feels like

>> which is alcohol. M

>> and to put it in perspective, what is

the percentage of deaths attributable to

homicide, suicide or alcohol-related

accidents? statistic I heard for the

northern native villages was 30% of

people die from homicide, suicide, and

having lived there a long time like

actually if I appreciate you stepping

back a little bit because I don't want

to like air dirty laundry and not y

>> put the proper context like

>> I love those people and they're my

friends and and many of my friends have

that issue but it has really tangible

consequences when it's at that level. It

was amazing because these people, you

know, you go in the village and they'd

be just on the ground drunk for like

weeks on end, just binges that could

only be broken by taking them back out

in the woods. But when they get in the

woods and sober up, these are like the

coolest, most knowledgeable people.

People that you would say are happy and

living a fulfilled life and and also

just really open and pleasant and quick

to become family basically. But it's

almost explicable just in the cultural

tumult that's they've had to endure over

time because you know it was just in the

30s and stuff that basically the Soviet

Union and Stalin like kind of really

grabbed a hold of what was had been long

before just a traditional way of life

that continued forward alongside Russian

fur trappers. And they grabbed hold of

it with like an iron fist force

collectivized it. All the people that

were spiritual leaders of any kind,

shamans and everybody else got sent to

prison camps. Anyone that was really

productive. So like if anyone that had

more than 500 reindeer were sent to

prison camps as kulocks or whatever, you

know, and then they kind of just gutted

the intellectual and spiritual soul from

them and then built these villages. They

forced him to be him and then instead of

them having reindeer

and being people existing freely out in

the wilderness, they turned them into

collective farms. So now now you're

hired as a reindeer herder to herd the

government's reindeer and your wife

might be hired as a teepee worker to

live in the tepee. And so they just

restructured the life. The kids now

don't live with you in the woods. They

go to boarding school, separated the

families, and then somehow they actually

made that kind of work, you know, and

and to some degree the reindeer, while

less independent than they were prior,

they flourished in that they had big

herds of reindeer and people were

productive and alcohol was banned. So

they kind of were quite productive and

then the Soviet Union collapsed and

overnight all the reindeer just became

for the highest bidder. So the, you

know, Russians and people from out of

town that had a lot of money just came

in and bought all these reindeer that

were grandpas and grandma's, you know,

blood and sweat and just butchered them

and sent them to the meat shops. And the

reindeer herders like scraped together

what little bit of money they could and

bought a few reindeer and went back into

the woods. The family I lived with, Van

Victor was the old man when I first got

there and he was blind, but he was the

guy that had like got some of these

reindeer, took his sons out of the

boarding school and raised them in the

woods. It gave me a real appreciation

also for the traditional ways of life

because I could see it in villages where

reindeer hurting hadn't been hung on to

and they just felt like black holes.

like everybody was just drinking and

there was nothing to do and they don't

have an outlet to like flourish with

something they're proud of in

>> in their native ways. So it felt pretty

dead end. But the village with reindeer

hering had this whole thing and they and

you know the reindeer herders out there

and because of that even the people that

don't do it are proud to be reindeer

herders and they have a place to send

their kids in the summer and people have

this there's a little bit of cultural

momentum that

>> it's really enriching. Let's unpack this

word and this animal and the

significance of reindeer because come up

a ton and people are like what is up

with these magical reindeer probably. So

first of all just to paint a picture for

folks and this might not help but

>> how similar are reindeer to caribou

>> very similar. You probably wouldn't

recognize the difference but they do

have a slight genetic just from

separation. And so reindeer are

technically in the old world and caribou

are the similar animal but in the new

world so Canada and stuff

>> and they can breed with each other and

stuff but

>> they the results turn out poorly like

they get the worst traits of both. In

the old world the reindeer were

domesticated very long ago like 10,000

years ago or whenever. So there's

actually kind of become a bit of a

domestic strain of reindeer. like the

natives now can't domesticate the wild

ones. And if a wild one comes in and

breeds with theirs, then it's always

going to be wild. So, it's been a way of

life long enough that there's some even

genetic separation between the wild and

the semi-domemestic.

>> And what is the role of the reindeer?

Why are they so important? Is it

analogous to say bison for some of the

plains Indians in North America? Is it

different?

>> Well, I guess it's different because of

the domestication.

>> Exactly. I was going to say it's

analogous in that, you know, their whole

cultural

stories and everything are all connected

with the reindeer like with the bison.

But it does differ because the reindeer

actually practically make living in the

woods

in the taigga in those remote northern

forests a thing. Like it makes it

possible to exist out there year round

and have transportation. And so they

ride the reindeer like you would horses

and then they also in the wintertime

ride them, you know, slays. They provide

meat when the hunts don't go well. They

provide the furs that, you know, so they

kind of provide everything. They also

provide just the cultural context. Like

you could go out there, sure, and set up

a teepee and live and bring in noodles

and, you know, be just fine. But but it

would feel fairly dead without just the

rhythms of life that are created by

the reindeer. So they're really core to

to that

>> sort of the rhythms

>> to the rhythms and and but also they're

very practically

>> I always hated snowmobiles cuz they're

going to break down and then you're

going to be stuck, you know, 40

kilometers from camp and like you said,

your hands aren't working. You got to

try to work on this whole thing. When

you had a reindeer in a sleigh,

>> no problem. You're fine. Yeah. Yeah. And

so this is a point that is interesting

to make that I learned living in the

woods for a while is like you're home.

You're just already home wherever you

are. And so like when you have your

reindeer and stuff, you're not lost.

You're home. You know, like just where

you are is kind of home. And you're able

to take that and really embody it and

become like a part of the wilderness in

that way. Mhm.

>> So, we're going to get back to hopping

trains in a second, but

>> you you kind of passed over

Gulog Archipelago

>> and you're like, it had an influence. It

had an impact on me. Seems like that

might be an understatement.

>> I don't know.

>> For people who are wondering, this is

not a light, breezy 100page read.

>> Mhm.

And we're going to come to that in just

a second, but what did your childhood

education look like?

>> I was homeschooled, so I was my mom took

it real seriously and she was pretty

hands-on in in teaching us. And I for

whatever reason really got into history

as a young kid. So even probably was 12,

I read this big I remember it was my

first real thick book, but it was about

Euima and like World War II and those

battles and

>> and then I got really into those

memoirs. Read a bunch of German memoirs

from World War II, which were always

crazy because they had to go through so

much. And then the Russian ones because

I was anyway got into all the memoirs

and then somehow came across the Gulag

Archipelago.

And I was fairly young. You know, I was

probably 17, 18 when I first read it.

And it impacted me in a lot of ways that

were relevant to my, you know, the

little spiritual path that I was on

before because a lot of what he talks

about is that happiness can't be our

ultimate goal in life. We have to have

purpose, you know, and so

>> could you just for people who and

certainly I'm not intimately familiar

with it, but what is written about?

Alexander Scholesen was a guy who's on

the front in World War II and wrote a

letter back criticizing Stalin or

something. And of course he got checked

and he got arrested and sent to uh Gulog

which were the Soviet prison camps that

you know kind of snaked their way all

through the Soviet Union and any they

were particularly harsh on political

prisoners as opposed to crime prisoners.

But like so they would send these guys

out to basically death camps and have

them mine or do the labor basically that

kept the thing going. But they were

designed to be really brutal and dark

places, you know, they just the way the

the fact that even, you know, because

the political prisoners were the bottom

of the rung, they allowed the like

rapists and those guys to kind of rule

the roost and set the rules. And so it

this they degraded into some pretty

terrible situations. And so he but this

was all unknown basically to the west.

And he was some kind of a brilliant

mind. And he over his eight or however

many years he was in the prison camp had

an encyclopedic

ability to like remember maybe he wrote

down I don't know but all these stories

of people who had been through all these

situations. And when you read it, I was

just struck by like, man, there's all

those little paragraph about this lady.

That lady should have her own book. Like

that's a crazy amount of tragedy and

story and and all the stuff packed in

those books. Another example of

something that really stood out was

like, you know, when you get in prison,

everybody says to themselves, I'm going

to survive, you know, and then you add

at any cost to the end almost

nonchalantly. And then pretty soon you

part start down this path where you're

basically stomping on others to survive

because you need to you know look out

for number one survival of the fittest.

And he was like and everybody basically

adopted that mentality. He's like except

for these corrupt Orthodox church had

somehow created these babushkas these

old ladies that didn't allow their soul

to go down that path. And he's like they

all died but they all were a light in

the

>> in the darkness on their way. and then

kind of gets at the point of yeah the

you could lose your life but don't lose

your soul and like happiness can't be

your ultimate goal that can be taken

from you by a health change or by

getting thrown in a goolock or by

whatever it is you have to have

something deeper and so forging a

purpose you know

>> I wanted to talk about the homeschooling

because

>> not that there is a single mold but

Yeah,

>> there are there are certain I suppose

maybe archetypes that people might have

in their heads as to what constitutes

like a rugged mountain man effectively.

And I was chatting with my girlfriend

last night and she was like, "He doesn't

really fit my vision of like a rugged

mountain man, which is not she's not

saying you're not rugged, but when

you're talking about, and I'm sure we'll

get to this, like Assyrian history and

reading Gulog Archipelago as a

17-year-old, like these are not

>> terribly common things that get woven

together.

>> How did your mom do the homeschooling?

Like what did a week look like or the

lesson plans? Does that does that make

any sense? I'm just wondering because

>> homeschooling I think for a lot of

people in the United States seems like

an aberration, but when you look at some

of the people whose books we read

>> Mhm.

>> a lot of them had some equivalent of

homeschooling.

>> Yeah. You know what I think it kind of

is is it's a you know like a public

school there is a standard and

everybody's going to be taught to that

standard. There's kind of a minimum bar

and this and that. Homeschooling allows

for more divergent options both on the

negative and the positive. So you can

keep your kid at home and not teach him

anything and go on, but also you can

really focus on your kids' unique

interests and abilities and they can

really excel and develop those in a way

you wouldn't in kind of the public

school realm. So because I was yeah

really into history, you know, we leaned

into that and and I had the time to cuz

honestly in a public school setting, you

burn up so much time going into re, you

know, just dinking around. Whereas I

could get done with my actual academic

schooling in just a couple hours in the

morning, a few hours maybe, and then go

on to my interests. And so it allows you

to do that. and she kind of taught us,

you know, initially she was really

hands-on and then the older we got it

was more hands-off where we had to be

more self-taught and follow this

whatever curriculum she had. And then

the last two years of school, so my last

junior and senior year, I went to a

public high school and got that

experience, too.

>> Got socialized.

>> Got socialized,

which was an odd experience. Just

kidding.

I'm not sure what I think of the

socialization, but it was

>> prefer I was going to say prefer to be

an indoor cat beer. Not really an indoor

cat.

>> No. So, with homeschooling though, I

think it has a really awesome thing. You

know, I think it's great that it's an

option in the country. It is one thing

if you're homeschooled, you have to

focus on its weakness, which is like

community and friends and and developing

that. So, for people that think that's

an interesting option, just know that

that's its weakness. and and account for

that in how you organize. That's what we

do with our kids.

>> How do you account for it with your

kids?

>> We're really active in

trying to be the catalyst for community

in our town. Like we're always ready to

hang out. We got him in jiu-jitsu and we

got in gymnastics and got them in all

the things and then make phone calls

foster like hiking trips with the other

families and make sure we're like

multiple times a week getting the kids

together with their friends and stuff.

You know, you just really put effort and

focus on that.

It it also strikes me that the ability

to build community and social bonds and

therefore socialize but not in some

oddly artificial environment

>> is kind of dependent on

activities and maybe this is

particularly true for boys I don't know

>> but

what I observed when I was at your house

>> I just remember

your kids' cousins visiting

>> and they were always outside doing

something, right? Which I think is

important, right? They're not just

sitting around talking. That's not

actually natural for most humans,

including adults, to just do that all

the time.

>> There were shared activities and then

when the cousins left, I guess it was

your middle child who was just crying.

It was so it was so adorable,

>> but such heartfelt deep connections.

Yeah.

>> And similarly, it's like when we were

out in the woods and we were sitting

around, your brother was there.

>> Mhm.

>> Maybe had a thing or two to do with the

jiu-jitsu influence. I don't know.

Another reason to never start fights.

Like, you would not see him and be like,

"I'm terrified of that guy." And yet, he

could absolutely bend you into a pretzel

and and cause lots of orthopedic

lifelong problems.

>> So, we're out there. It was your

brother, couple of llamas, one with a

slightly lopsided head, prone to falling

over. It's a long story. And then

just a few guys, right? Two of my close

friends, and we're all around a fire.

And I can't remember who said it. Maybe

it was your brother. Maybe it was Mike.

But oh, I get it. I see why. This is

again, not saying this is a purely

gendered thing, but this is what he said

cuz it was all guys. Yeah,

>> Mike probably. And he said,

>> "No, it was uh Matt."

>> It was Matt. Okay. Who said,

>> "Now I see why guys like fires so much

because they can connect and talk

without making eye contact. You can just

look at the fire having something that

is like ancillary."

>> I thought it was a a fun observation.

I've paid a little more attention to it

ever since. But it does just give you

something a third

party to We should have a little start a

little fire on the table here. No, but

the uh um for sure having a common

activity like that and we are fortunate

enough to just be able to to live in a

place that's really conducive to and

sending the kids outside and it's

something I've obviously tried to foster

in them. So, they do spend a lot of time

just running around and being creative

and you know they don't have one thing

I've avoided a bit is phones and stuff

like that. And I think it is fairly

lowhanging fruit because I mean you can

see how they affect us in our everyday

life. We get distracted and we get

>> kind of man disoriented with them I

would say. And and with kids it's even

so much more cute. So they have to go

out and run around and play and have

fun. Well, well, you've also engineered

this. I mean, it's a very fancy term to

use, but like you've designed that into

your life as a deliberate

>> environment and place. You could have

been in a lot of other places

>> and

>> as for instance, I'm training this very

large puppy right now,

>> although I think I'm being trained a lot

more probably. In any case, very

different personality from my other dog.

probably mixed with Anatolian Shepherd,

very stubborn.

And

when you're trying to train a dog like

that, I remember dog trainer said to me,

if you're using treats as an example,

right, you have to tip with 20s because

the bar is crowded,

>> right? There are a lot of distractions.

>> Mh.

>> And

>> when I think about kids, and of course I

do not have kids yet. I hope to in the

very near future.

>> Cool.

But if you're sitting in an apartment in

the city and you're like, "Kids, you

can't use your phone."

>> What are you offering them as an

alternative,

>> right? It's like, what is the

alternative that is more compelling

>> and you've deliberately put yourself in

an environment where there's you have

quite a lot to choose from

>> and that has been intentional. And

obviously that is probably more

difficult if you have a small apartment

and you live in a city, you know, I

imagine it takes a lot more hands-on

going to the park or you know there's a

lot of creative outlets in learning to

paint, learning an instrument, learning

a this or that that may scratch that

itch. For me, I did have it as a high

priority to let the outdoors be a big

part of our life. So, I moved where that

was possible and I have structured our

life such I got the llamas, you know,

we're joking about initially so that I

could take the family out on one two

week long trips rather than because I

just couldn't carry enough gear to take

them out for shorter. So, it's been

really intentional and it's been great

and it's something to work out in a more

urban context, but I guess it's it's not

where I'm at.

>> Llamas, people might be like, llamas,

really? Are we in the Andes? What's

going on? Why llamas instead of instead

of horses?

>> You know, the reindeer history. Now,

when I when I first got back from

Russia, my I thought it would be amazing

to pack with reindeer in America. So, I

lived in Idaho and there was a law

against owning reindeer north of a

certain border. I contacted my

legislature or whatever there and oddly

responsive, pretty soon I was in

meetings at the government with the

government officials and they don't

overturn the law. So, now you can own

reindeer in North Idaho. Unfortunately,

part of that was they had to be in a

high fence. So, it kind of ruined the

ability of what I was envisioning to

like

>> So, you couldn't you couldn't pack them

out?

>> Yeah. I couldn't like load them full of

gear and pack up in the woods. So, you

know, then your only other options are

horses and llamas. And I honestly just

hadn't grown up with horses. And it's

quite a learning curve on them. They're

dangerous. You know, everybody that does

a lot with horses has some kind of

stories of getting hurt on them.

>> For people who have no idea, how big how

big are llamas?

>> They're about 350 lbs.

>> They're a lot smaller.

>> They're a lot smaller.

>> They're a lot smaller. And I'm sure

there are cases where they might, but

they tend not to kick.

>> Yeah, they don't. They're very like

safe. And you can have like mean angry

llamas, of course, like you can have a

bad bitey dog, but you know, if you have

a good llama, they're oddly chill

animals. You go up on the woods and they

don't like tear up the ground. They sit

there quietly. The kids can ride them.

So, in that way, they're quite nice for

kids. Obviously, adults can't, but they

can pack the gear and I can walk without

gear as long as I want to. So, there's

great advantages of horses and I love

them. But for me, the low maintenance of

a the low maintenance and low risk of a

llama just I was like, well, if I can't

have reindeer, I guess that's the next

closest thing. So,

>> are there any terrain

or surefootedness advantages to llamas?

I'm thinking about for instance like

horses versus donkeys, right?

>> Like it seems like there are some

advantages of using

>> donkeys over horses. Everybody should

follow

Hobo Jordan on Instagram because you

have photos of the aftermath of some

horses going

>> cartwheeling down an incline.

>> Yeah.

>> Don't want to be caught up in that.

>> Yeah. It's easy to get killed, I think.

Yeah. This is a common historical

>> theme. Someone so and so got bucked off

the horse and the fourth crusade ended

or whatever.

>> Yeah.

>> But where were we going?

>> Advantages of llamas on terrain, right?

>> On terrain. Yeah. So they have so you

know like with a horse you have a metal

shoe on the bottom and metal

particularly on rock is pretty slippery

>> slippery and so you'll do a lot of

slipping and sliding on rocks. The

llamas have a soft pad with two little

claws. They look like little raptor

claws in the front and so it's actually

quite interesting to see how they work.

>> They're very small. Yeah, they're small

little paws, but they you can stick on

like a wet rock and that soft pad will

grip and they can walk up and down the

rocks. Or if you're in mud or soft dirt,

you see those two little front claws

digging like a raptor claw and they can

climb up that. In that way, the terrain

issues are pretty great. The other pack

animal people use is goats. And those

are nice cuz you can really go over

boulders and like they can hop from this

to that. They're somewhere in between a

horse and a goat as far as their

off-roading abilities. But

>> sounds like you would have to have a

whole caravan of goats for carrying

capacity.

>> And goats also are always with you. Like

with a llama, I can tie them up and go

hike up this way and that way. The goats

are always with you. You can't tie them

up and you can't leave them anywhere.

Chaos will ensue. But they're they're

funny little critters, but they weren't

my cup of tea.

>> Let's hop to purpose, right? this which

I I feel like

>> looking back at your family history

looking back and is it fair just to tie

up one loose end with Gulag Archipelago

is it how analogous is it to man's

search for meaning by Victor Frankle

>> it's real similar I think it's like the

thicker version of that you know it's

like gulag archipelago light would be

that man's search for meaning

>> got it okay

>> could you give us

a bit of your family history and you can

go back to your grandmother. You could

kind of start wherever you want. The the

purpose specifically made me think of

your dad and the reinvention of purpose.

>> Yeah.

>> Which I think

>> is a pressing need for a lot of people

in a fastmoving modern environment where

they feel like they're on very

>> unstable ground perhaps in a lot of

ways.

>> But let's go back. You know, I threw out

this term Assyrian, but most people

don't. It's not a familiar word.

>> I guess you would almost call it the

indigenous people of the Middle East,

you know, before kind of the Arab

takeovers and stuff were Aramaic

speaking Assyrians is what they're

called. So that's what my family was.

They lived in northwestern Iran, kind of

near a lake called Lake Heria. And

during the chaos of World War I, you

know, there had been the Ottoman Empire

was crumbling and and all these people

who had been under the Ottoman like

colonial yoke were seeking out their

independence and their freedom and

breaking off.

And in all that chaos, I think what

happened was they it was an easy time to

get rid of a entire people group. You

know, like actually Anatolia, you have

an Anatolian shepherd was a pretty

diverse place up until then. After that

time, it was basically just Turks and

Kurds left, you know, like the the

Greeks, the Assyrians, the Armenians

kind of got all ran out of there.

>> What were the reasons for running them

out?

>> It's complicated. It's not history is

not black and white. they were

minorities because those groups were

Christian overall living in you know

under the Ottoman umbrella and so

sporadically at times they would live

okay and then at times there would be

big massacres and over the course of

centuries there were just constant it

wasn't a pleasant way to live I guess

would be the quick way to put it and so

there was sporadic massacres kind of all

the time and then so when World War I

happened you couldn't and blame them for

wanting independence, you know. And so

there were better and worse people. A

lot of a lot of those Christian

minorities joined with the British or

the Russians to try to forge out their

new nation states that were forming from

the crumbling Ottoman Empire. And at the

same time, nationalism was really rising

and there was a big Turkey for the Turks

movement, like we don't want other

people here. And that was ultimately the

movement with the most power. And so

when the Russian Empire collapsed from

the Bolevik revolution, they kind of

left a vacuum in these areas that had

they had kind of provided a bit of a

defense for. And because of that, you

know, crazy nationalist fervor that was

going on, the Turks decided that they

could just they would just kill or expel

all the minorities who, of course, some

of them had been problematic and that

there was like these freedom movements

everywhere, but collective punishment at

a massive scale. And obviously my

grandparents were kind of out of it

because they were in Iran, but when the

Russian presence left there, the Turks

went into there too. And it was

basically at that point it was just kind

of a uncontrolled well ultimately would

be a genocide. It killed like 750,000

Assyrians and a million plus Armenians

and you know it was quite a disaster. My

family was so my grandma and grandpa

both of them would ultimately be be for

all practical purposes sole survivors

like their families were completely

wiped out. My grandpa was in a village

when they were coming in and burning it

down. And his dad was in a wheelchair

basically put a money belt on him and

told him just he was 17 told him just

run and don't look back. And he looked

back to see his dad's house on fire, you

know, with his dad in it. He never knew

what his sister happened to his sister.

Ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit

priests and kind of raised in there. And

then my grandma had a different story

where they the Ottoman Empire was still

kind of conscious of like trying to put

on a image to the world. And so instead

of I mean there was plenty of just

straight up massacres, but instead of

they they called them deportations, but

they were kind of deportations to

nowhere. So they just drove people out

into the desert and marched them around

until they died. And so my grandma and

she had seven siblings and a mom, her

dad was taken off to be shot and then

they just drove them around in the

desert until all but mom, my

great-grandmother, and one one sister of

my grandma were left. You know, the baby

just had died and the mom fell down was

like, I just can't go on anymore. and my

shalom, my grandma and Shushan like

picked her up and like we got to keep

going. At some point there they split

off from the guards or whatever stumbled

through and were were actually ended up

being rescued by British military like

outpost type thing. I don't know. And

then they were taken to a refugee camp.

Mom and the sister never recovered

really from just the trauma. And then

grandma

was sent to Baghdad and raised in a

refugee camp. So these two people had

kind of lost everything. Even their like

I mean the Assyrian

people nation kind of almost vanished.

Like there's Aramaic is what they speak.

It's like almost a gone language now.

You know it's very just small fragments

of it hanging on. So they had kind of

lost everything and then they met in

Baghdad somehow and got married,

immigrated to France right before World

War II and then the Nazi invasion

happened and there was a whole they have

a whole series of stories from you know

kind of the deprivation at that time.

they were already poor immigrants

arriving there and then to like go

through that whole Nazi occupation and

then and then they eventually made it to

America and actually died not long

after. So my dad was 10 when his parents

died and was raised by his sisters. But

what what I find something to be that I

think about a lot is that they had they

ended up having 11 kids, you know, so

they had a really big family

and I would go to all these family

reunions with my aunts and uncles and my

dad and this and that and they were just

the most joyful fun, you know, like so

much love and joy and family and all

this. It was a real bright spot in my

childhood. And then was just that Jonas

family stuff and then you almost take it

for granted until you step back and

you're like wait a second we're one

generation from like this is my grandma

and her grandpa had their entire

families wiped out and lost their whole

culture and had to immigrate and give up

everything and then had to do that

again. But somehow they've raised like a

really joyful family like a full of

people and our like conversations were

never about like those people did that

to us and like this is what happened you

know it was never hate was never the

common language. It was always love and

family and now there's like some old

grainy videos of grandma and grandpa and

and they're just laughing and eat you

know they've raised rabbits and eating

rabbit around the table and laughing and

you think wow that's so interesting. I

don't know what cross they bore. And I

know my dad said his dad used to always

sit in his closet and pray. And he's

like,

>> you know, I'm sure he had like a lot to

deal with, but they didn't pass it down

one generation, which is impressive. And

not only did they not pass it down, they

built and put into the world something

really beautiful, which is my family,

including my dad. And so leading into

what you're talking about, dad, it's

something that I think about regularly

more than you would think because maybe

I have a history into orientation, but

just the fact that that's a legacy that

I have that we all have, you know,

shared humanity, but what a thing to be

able to live up to. Like I don't have to

be defined by the hardship and the

tragedy in the negative way. It's like

you can see how other people have risen

to that occasion and come out of it and

created. And so when I find myself in a

hard situation in the past or now or

whatever, you know, you can you have

that to look at, hang on to

>> having a choice.

>> Yep. You have a choice of how to relate

to it. It could I mean there were so

many people and there's just like you

have every right to be fully traumatized

and never recover. You know what I mean?

Like I there's no judgment on my front

for that. But on the other hand, it's

like what about those few people that

did somehow recover or what, you know, I

don't know what you would call it, but

they somehow built something in the

world in spite of the like unimaginable

horrors. You know, watching your family

get killed and raped and all the things

that went on and then just being able to

build a loving family was pretty

impressive.

>> Yeah.

>> Mhm.

>> Well, let's talk about your dad. I mean,

whether by nature or nurture or both, he

made seemingly some pretty remarkable

choices as well. So he was grew up as

obviously a son of immigrants in America

and they was raised by mostly his sister

out on you know and so all I think he

really wanted was a family and stability

and wanted to work hard and you know his

most joyful moments when I was growing

up was when he'd come home from work and

we'd run out and give him a hug like I

think that was his like life most fully

lived was just being a provider and

being able to you know he was an

engineer so he was smart guy and being

able to like just create a family.

That's really what he wanted. He was

very family oriented. But then it was

interesting because when he had also had

childhood diabetes and polio, so he had

some health issues and he wasn't great

at managing his diabetes well. So when

he was probably about I mean I was

pretty young I guess you know still a

teenager probably he started you know

get the sores on your feet that you get

and then basically because of the

degrading situation with his feet. He

lost his job and all of a sudden he had

to watch as my mom had to go back to

school which was something that was very

difficult for her because she's just not

academic but but no longer could dad be

the provider. He was basically somebody

we had to care for because he ended up

losing his foot and this and that. It

was like a 12-year process of his health

degrading. And it was really hard for

him. You know, mom's going to school and

we had to go to the food bank and I

remember him just like crying like I

failed. Like the one thing he wanted to

do.

>> Yeah. Brutal.

>> And then his foot finally recovered and

he and I went out in the woods and we

were splitting wood and he like crushed

his foot into the log splitter. Oh. And

it was, oh, deflate your s. So then they

just amputated his other f. And so

basically he lost his ability, his

physical ability to to pursue his

purpose in the world. And uh that was

really difficult for him to do. He had

to watch his family suffer and this and

that. But then it was interesting over

the years to watch him. So from my

perspective as a son, from my mom's

perspective as his wife, we never lost

sight of his purpose, you know, like we

we knew who he was in our lives. It was

never about the money he was bringing

home or the this or that. It was like

what an encourager and you know, what a

joyful person and all that. And we never

lost sight of that. He did. But then it

was interesting to see over the course

of those 12 years of health degradation

how it was almost like

he had to refind his purpose and he did.

And you know like and then when his

health was at its worst and he was on

dialysis and in tons of pain and stuff

was in a way when his what would you

call it spiritual giftings or something

were at their peak like he was really

able to I could hear him at night crying

in pain and like oh and then in the

morning he would oh Jordan you know

doing great and this and that and let's

read this psalm together let's do this

you know he was very much he refound his

purpose in pouring into us and into

facing the loss of his health and his

own death with joy. And that's what he

did. He finally was like, "Man, it's I'm

in too much pain. It's too degrading,

you know, to have me rolling him off the

bed. Take him to diialysis." He's like,

"I'm just going to stop going to

diialysis." And that was a hard decision

for him. But when he did, it was just

like, "All right, let's just party for

the next two weeks." You know, he was

diabetic, so finally he could eat all

the crap food he wanted. And we all had

tons of laughs, and he was kind of full

of joy right up until the end. And

you're like, "What a cool legacy to see

someone face all that and see purpose,

not in their life even, but even in how

to face death and the way he did that,

we're all going to be in the same

position where we lose our whether our

health or whatever inevitable suffering

is coming down the hatch, you know, like

I now have a template for how to face

that in a way that I'm still putting

into the world some kind of light

because I could see that it's not only

possible, but you know, I could see the

template for doing that." So, it's

interesting having seen that. It really

makes you be grateful for the like the

blessing I have now and that I do know

what I love to do and that I have an

opportunity to to share it with others

and I know my purpose now as it is, but

I also know that's going to have to

evolve with inevitabilities of aging and

and everything else. And so it's

interesting to make sure your priorities

now are in such a way that as you have

to shift directions that you'll be able

to make that adjustment like they should

rhyme. You know, you shouldn't have to

like it's not going to be something

completely different.

>> It's just going to evolve into a little

bit different angle. When you think of

your dad's

purpose

changing over those 12 years,

>> is one way to view it as him going from

prioritizing how he acted in the world,

like how he does things in the world to

how he then supports and teaches the

rest of you in the family. I mean, was

he taking on more of a teacher role? Was

it a supporter role? I mean,

>> maybe not explicitly, but definitely

implicitly. His gifting was that he

really was an encourager and was really

joyful and you know people enjoyed being

around him and he was able to lean into

those skills you know those gifts in

spite of the fact that he couldn't walk

or that he could didn't have hands or

whatever. I think you lean into those

giftings that you have that are not

dependent on your ability to produce,

you know, which which is great while you

have it. But

>> how long after he stopped dialysis? How

long did he last after that?

>> It was about a week. It wasn't as long

even as we expected, you know, like it

might be up to two weeks or whatever. At

about I think it was about a week in his

temperature just spiked and then that

was it. We were all around. Did you at

the time

understand his decision? Were you

interested? You know, to be fair, I

mean, to be honest, I actually

>> he was really struggling with it

because, you know, he was also a man of

faith and I remember him reading, you

know, he was like,

>> boy, it says, you know, because he

really was having a hard time hanging

on, you know, because it's the pain, the

amount of pain he was in and stuff, but

he was like, it says here, you know, the

Lord will never give you more than you

can bear. And I remember actually in

conversation with him, well, that's

actually not true, Dad. like everybody

that's died was given more than a bear.

It says it won't tempt you beyond your

ability to bear, which is a different

thing. You know, you're kind of on a