You need the skill. If there's somebody

in your life and you don't know whether

they're a snake or that they're

genuinely your friend, approach them

from an angle and surprise them and for

a second you detect what we call fake.

You should become aware of that. Robert

Greene is one of the best-selling

authors in history.

internationally renowned expert on power

strategies.

He's been referenced in songs by Jay-Z,

Kanye West,

the godfather of power, seduction,

mastery. We have this idea that if I

apply myself really hard and I should be

successful, but I kept noticing this

blind spot that people had. They were

terrible in dealing with people. And if

you're not careful and constantly

misreading people, they could manipulate

you. They could wound you. But if you

follow the process that I lay out, it

will be the best defense you could ever

have in your life. You know all the

tricks people are playing on you. We

have to learn to look behind people's

masks. To be a human being means we lie.

But you know what doesn't lie? Body

language. Eyes are hard to lie. The

smile tells you a hundred different

things if you know how to read it. But

the problem that you have is you think

it's a natural skill. I'm a human being.

I know how to read people. You don't.

You're operating in darkness, but I do

believe everybody has that potential.

So, the first thing you do is

frenemies. Do we all have frenemies?

Yes. They sabotage you, hurt you, and

you don't want them in your life. And

one common sign of a frenemy is they're

It's absolutely crazy to me that so many

of you have decided to watch our show

and so many of you have decided to

subscribe to our show. We now have 5

million subscribers on YouTube, which is

a number that I just can't comprehend

and it's a dream that I absolutely never

could have had. We started The Diary of

a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in

my wildest expectations we might have

had a hundred thousand subscribers by

now. So, you can imagine how shocked I

am that so many of you have chosen to

tune into these conversations every week

and spend some time with us. So, thank

you. And I made a deal with you. I made

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show, that we would continue to raise

the bar. And in 2024,

we're going to raise the bar like never

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The production's going to change. We're

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guests, and we're going to tell even

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you appreciate what we're doing here,

the simple free favor I'll ask from you

is to hit the subscribe button. Let's

get on with the episode.

Robert, you wrote a book about human

nature in 2018 called The Laws of Human

Nature.

Why did you write that book?

Well, it's the fruit of a lot of

experiences that I've had. Um

So, I wrote The 48 Laws of Power. And

prior to that book, I was somebody who

never had any power in life. I was sort

of a failure, you know, I had gone

through so many different jobs. And then

all of a sudden, I write this one book,

and people are coming to me for advice.

It was kind of shocking, right?

And I started noticing a trend. And the

trend is

we live in this intense technological

age where we have so much power at our

fingertips, right? And we It's so easy

to get attention, and on on and on. And

we have this idea that everything in

life should be easy. It's all about just

well, if I apply myself really hard, I

should be successful.

But I kept noticing this blind spot that

people had. They were terrible in

dealing with people. They were making

all of these mistakes.

Everybody wears a mask. You wear wear I

wear a mask when we're out in the public

realm, we don't exactly say what we

think, right? We We're all a bit

strategic.

And if you're not careful, you're

constantly saying the wrong things,

you're constantly misreading people,

you're doing things at your job that you

think are going to impress, but they

have the opposite effect, and then

something bad happens and you're

confused and you're emotional.

It was like this circle atmosphere of

pain around the globe of people

suffering because they don't know how to

handle in their lives.

And because we're so virtual,

and we're so locked in our phones, that

we're becoming worse and worse at

reading other people, at understanding

them. You know, when I'm sitting across

from you, I can see your body language,

I can see your non-verbals, I can see

all sorts of things, I can deal with you

as a human.

But when I spend 95% of my time behind a

screen, da da da da da, you know, and

that's even how I date,

basic human skills of understanding, of

connecting, of empathy, of reading,

they're getting hopelessly degraded.

That's my long-winded answer for why I

wrote that book.

If there's someone listening out there

and they can relate to certain parts of

what you've just said, maybe it's a lack

of their own self-awareness or maybe

they have poor sort of awareness of

others,

is there a starting place to reversing

that? Is there maybe a most important

skill that we need to master as at the

foundation of that transformation?

very simple. It's to get down on your

hands and knees and realize you're bad

at dealing with people.

The problem that you have is you think

that it's a natural skill. Yeah, I'm

okay at it, I just kind of wing it, I

understand what I'm doing, I'm a human

being, I know I I I know how to read

people, etc. You don't. You're operating

in darkness, you're groping around. Just

realize, first of all, that you need

this skill.

And once you realize that, the first

thing you do is you look inward. You

look at your own nature, you look at the

things that I write about in the book

about narcissism,

about irrationality, and instead of

searching for the people around you that

fit those categories, look at yourself.

So, it all begins with self-awareness.

You are the best subject of human

nature.

So, when I was writing this book,

it was actually quite painful.

So, I'm writing a chapter on narcissism,

one of the longest chapters in the book

because it's a very important subject.

And I'm telling myself,

"Robert, you're quite a narcissist. You

didn't think of yourself that way, but

you have all of these classic tendencies

that you're writing about in the book."

It was painful. But, in order to come to

understand narcissism in other people, I

had to sort of understand it in myself.

So, step number one is

I need this knowledge. I'm actually not

very good with dealing with people. It's

caused me problems. Go back and review

the problems and the mistakes you've

made, mistakes I've made as well many,

many times. And then,

when you realize that you want this

knowledge, then you begin by looking

inward.

But, if you think that

that it's not needed, that you're not

it's just oh, it's kind of interesting

or maybe I'll sort of dabble in it, it

won't mean anything to you. You have to

feel that pain that you've been through

in life, and it's kind of an ongoing

pain. It's one that I still have even

though I wrote the book, where I misread

people,

where I inadvertently hurt them when I

didn't mean to hurt them, you know? And

I feel that, and I suffer from it. And

so, the pain that you feel, the emotions

that that this turns up, motivate you

then to become better at understanding

other people.

What if you find things in yourself,

like you said, that you don't like? You

find

narcissism in yourself, you find

darkness in yourself. What are we meant

to do with that? Are we meant to

heal it, resolve it?

You're meant to look at it. You're meant

to confront it. Um I mean, I I have in

the book a quote from the great writer

Anton Chekhov that

people can't begin to change themselves

until they know who they are, until they

understand themselves. Right? So, we all

want to change. We all want to be better

at ourselves.

But until we know who we are, until we

realize our flaws and our weaknesses.

So, the main law of human nature, if I

could summarize it, is

we don't like to look at ourselves. It's

always the other person. They're the

ones with the problem. They're the ones

who are aggressive or

passive-aggressive. They're the ones who

feel envy. They're the ones who are

rational. But me, no. No, I'm a paragon

of virtue. I'm always moral. I'm always

good. I'm always smart, etc. So, it's

The point isn't to beat yourself up and

go, "Damn it, I'm an awful human being."

We're all humans, come from the same

source. We all have the same ancestors.

Our We all have the same flaws in our

brain. It's not like you're exceptional.

It's not like you're the one person that

doesn't have a narcissism, that doesn't

have self-absorption.

So, realizing that you're connected to

all these people, that we all have these

flaws and weaknesses, is actually not a

bad thing. It's a good thing. And then

by examining yourself deeply, you can

begin to change some of these things.

You know, it's just like you I don't go

like, "Oh, damn it, I'm a narcissist.

I'm I'm self-absorbed. I think a lot

about myself. I love talking about

myself." Which is something I'm afraid I

do like to do. Right? The point isn't

well, oh well, I'm just depressed.

There's nothing I can do. Once I'm aware

of it, I can begin to change it. But if

I'm always repressing it, if I'm always

thinking, "No, I'm good. I don't have

those problems." Then if you can't see

them, how can you change them? How can

you deal with them? How can you become a

better person? How can you change those

qualities that you don't want?

One of the most important things in the

laws of human nature is that you have

patterns that you are compulsive.

It comes from your character. These

patterns that you see in your intimate

relationships. You always fall for the

wrong person or you sometimes fall for

the wrong person. You see it in your

work world. I make these mistakes. I get

fired for this reason, etc., etc. And

there are good patterns, but we tend to

repeat over and over and over again

these these sort of compulsive behavior.

Being aware of these patterns, being

aware of these things, you can now begin

to you have the power to change them.

A lot of people

climb the mountain of awareness and I

get I was thinking about people in my

life that I've climbed the mountain of

awareness and in my own life hill things

that I'm aware of, darkness within me

that I'm aware of or challenges or

patterns I'm aware of.

Taking the next step from So, I think

becoming aware is painful.

And then doing something about it is

difficult.

It's painful because

there's a lot of cognitive dissonance

associated with figuring out that you're

not who you want to be.

You know, and then doing something about

it requires breaking what feels like old

neurological pathways in my brain.

You know, trigger. You think about the

habit cycle. How do I breaking that is

difficult.

I I look at it very differently, I'm

afraid. So, I think actually it's worse

when you're not aware of who you are.

When you walk around in this world with

all of these false ideas about who you

are.

You you don't even know who you are.

You're wearing this mask, you're not

authentic. You're behaving in the world

as if you're somebody else.

And you're not aware of that, but it's

causing you pain. It's making you suffer

because you're not aware of of the real

person that you are. You're not

authentic.

And coming to terms with some of these

dark qualities is actually a very

enlightening experience. It's actually

can be euphoric. You go,

I am an animal. I'm not the saint. I'm

not this paragon that I thought I was.

I'm an animal with flaws.

I can embrace that. We're all like that

and it's a good thing and feeling like

you have this and you're coming to terms

with it. I have a chapter on the dark

side of human nature.

Everybody has a shadow side. I have it,

you have it, right?

And seeing that shadow side, which is

something you've been repressing since

childhood and dealing with it and

confronting with it is actually one of

the most wonderful experiences you can

have in life because repressing all of

these things is what is making you

miserable in life. But coming to terms

with who you are and being aware of it

is actually what liberating, you know?

Where Where does it come from, uh

dark side, what you talk about in

chapter nine of the book?

Well, I think it comes from uh

childhood. So, when you're a child, when

you're three or four years old,

you're like this complete person. I

compare it to like this round ball.

You have good qualities. You have loving

qualities. You love your parents

perhaps. You love your siblings perhaps.

But you also have these other dark

qualities, these kind of aggressive

impulses. You Sometimes you hit people.

Sometimes you say nasty things, right?

But you're a complete person. It's

natural. It's who you are. It's how you

were born. It's like a round ball and

it's complete.

And then slowly, year by year, month by

month, you have to cut off that dark

side, that back side of yours.

In school, you're told don't ever show

that part of you. Your parents are Come

on, you got to be nice. You got to get

along. We want want to be proud of you.

All of those aggressive impulses that

you have, all of those feelings where

you where you felt envy about somebody,

whatever, you wished you had what your

your brother or sister had. So, they all

go underground. Right? You force them

down.

You don't want to deal with them, but

they're still there because you're a

human being. Those emotions don't leave

you. They just get pushed down and they

go into the backside of your head. That

round ball now becomes cut off. It's

like the moon with a dark side and a

front side. And when you're out in the

public and you're in work or in social

situation, you're only showing people

that bright, happy side, the good side.

And you're doing the damndest conceal

all of that dark energy inside of you.

And then suddenly,

because you're not aware of it, it comes

out in explosions.

Very typical thing is

you suddenly get angry and you burst out

with an angry email or you yell at

somebody, you say something kind of

nasty.

And then you look back and you go,

"Where did that come from?

That I didn't That's not really me. I

don't really like that. I I feel ashamed

about that." But what you must realize

is that's part of your shadow that's

speaking. It's coming out. You're just

not aware of it. You're trying to

control it too much.

And I say,

"The best thing in life to do is not to

take out this dark side and just throw

it around the world and and and be nasty

and aggressive. That won't work.

But you have to find ways to take that

energy because that dark side contains a

lot of energy, a lot of power. And use

it and channel it into ways that are

productive."

So,

I happen to be someone who has

a fair amount of aggression, I have to

admit.

I'm extremely competitive, right?

Even in card games, I don't like losing.

So, I've channeled it into my books. I

take all of that energy and I put it

into making the best books that I can

into ambition.

So, if you're ambitious, channeling that

energy into becoming the best and

beating the competition is is is a

productive way of using that dark

energy.

If you feel angry about a cause or

something that pisses you off about the

world, some injustices, instead of

whining about it, etc., you go out and

you do something. You do something

You get involved in a movement or

whatever. You channel that energy into

something productive.

That's the way to deal with the dark

side, and that's You can't go throughout

life imagining that you're the same

because you're not. You have these

qualities.

In your book about the strategies of

war,

the

second strategy of war that you write

about is do not fight the last war.

And when I read that, what I understood

it to kind of mean was about

not being rigid.

You know, how does one dismantle their

the prison of convention that they live

in?

So, for that lawyer or for that person

that's working in the financial district

who is, you know, 47 and they're a

lawyer and a stockbroker and they're

miserable.

Um

they have somewhat been imprisoned by

their own identity, which is like a set

of ideas from the past. And I'm really

obsessed with how we get out of the way

of our own identity so that we can live

our most fulfilling lives.

Cuz even me, you know, there's and

probably even you, I've created this

perception of who I am and I'm like

following the instructions every day.

Yeah, it's a trap. You know, you can't

fall into that. So, one of the laws of

power that I have, one of the things

very important, I think it's

law 25 or 26, I don't remember the

number, is recreate yourself.

So, the moment people start, um uh

know who you are, they they they they

identify, they create your identity,

"Oh, Robert Greene is this person who

writes these dark, Machiavellian,

manipulative books." Then I'm trapped.

I'm trapped by their perception of me,

and I always have to be like a little

dog performing for them, right? And I

don't want to fall into that trap.

You have to recreate yourself. You have

to use your personality and who you are

as clay that you are molding. You're

like an artist. And so, you you change

yourself.

For each person, that's different. So,

for me,

it means I don't write 48 Laws of Power

part two.

I write now a book that's

not like the 48 Laws of Power at all.

For you, it's

doing your podcast but changing it up,

or maybe you do a different podcast, or

maybe you do go into a different career

set, or maybe you become

a CEO or an entrepreneur in a different

direction.

I was recently on Andrew Huberman's

podcast, right? One of the most

successful podcasts beside yours in the

world. And um

he I don't want to I

It's going to sound like bragging, but

the book Mastery helped him a lot

because he was a professor I believe at

Stanford. I hope I I have it right.

Everything was going well. He was on a

fast track in in neuroscience, but he

was miserable.

He hated the politicking. He hated all

the [ __ ] that you have to go through

in academia.

And then he read the book, and he goes,

I don't know how old he was. He must

have been in his early 30s. He goes,

"I don't want to do this. I want to

change. I want to recreate myself." He

decided to go into podcasting and to

take all of his knowledge about science

and neuroscience and bring it into a

different medium. And so, that's that's

extremely powerful because if he stayed

in academia,

he would have gone down the path that

we're talking about. It sounds a little

sexier than being

in finance in your 47, but being stuck

in academia when it doesn't fit you with

all the nasty politics that go on in

universities, etc. That is a path for

misery if it doesn't fit. So, you have

to kind of go through this process all

the time, and not let other people tell

you who you are.

In the case of Andrew Huberman, who

transitioned from an academic to a

podcaster,

it's quite a feat because there's lots

of forces that try and hold our existing

identity in place.

A lot of people.

And to sort of cross the chasm, get past

all of that force that says, "No, we

want you to stay with us, Andrew. We

want you to be an academic. Who do you

think you are being a podcaster?"

You know, that that that force I'm so

intrigued by because everyone,

regardless of

where they are now, if they're going to

try and venture to somewhere else, a

better place, they're going to encounter

that.

Um how does one work through that? What

is that? How do we understand that force

that's trying to keep us down? It

usually happens when you're successful

that people start giving you these

identities that kind of define who you

are.

And

if you're okay with it, that's fine, you

know, if it doesn't But I'm a big

believer in listening to your own pain

and listening to your own frustration.

So, when you feel frustrated in life,

you have to go through a process. You

have to look at it, and you have to go,

"What is the source of it?" Normally,

the first thing you'll do is you'll

blame other people, you'll blame the

world, you'll blame your your spouse,

your children, whatever, right? And you

won't really look at what it is, why

you're frustrated.

And if you look at it deeply enough, and

you go,

"I'm really frustrated because I'm not

enjoying my work.

I'm making money. I'm going there every

day, and I'm going through the motions.

And I'm successful, and people admire

me, but I'm not happy. I'm frustrated.

I'm upset." You've got to lean into that

pain. You've got to lead lean into what

frustrates you, and go,

"I can't go on another 5 years like this

because

the mind and the body are tied in

There's no difference. They they're all

we're all one, we're all a unity.

And so, when you start having these

frustrations, these desires that are not

you're not acting upon, it creates

physical problems. You're not aware of

why suddenly your blood pressure is

rising, why suddenly your back is having

pain like I'm having right now.

It's all interconnected. And when you're

not doing something that you that you're

not engaged with, your whole being goes

out of whack. Everything doesn't work.

You've got to listen to it, you've got

to understand it.

And you've got to go,

"I want some joy and some excitement in

my life. I want a challenge."

It takes some fearlessness because

leaving

a prestigious job at Stanford, we've got

money, you have I don't know if he had

tenure or not or perhaps he did. You

know, it takes some guts because you're

leaving something that that that's that

you know that's that's a convention,

that's stable, etc. etc.

But you've got to go, "It's not worth

the price. It's not who I am. I'm going

to suffer for it down the road."

And so,

you know, let's say he decided to go

into podcasting

and it failed.

All right, so be it. Then he learns that

and he he's somebody who's very smart.

He would have figured out another way to

another direction to go in.

If my book The 48 Laws of Power hadn't

been a success,

I don't know what would have happened to

me, but hopefully I would have figured

out another way to go, you know, cuz I

also had to drop a career direction that

I was going in.

But you've got to try.

You've got to be able to try and you've

got to go to say yourself,

"It's actually a great thing

in your 30s, let's say, to go,

'I need something new. I need something

completely different. I need a new

challenge. I'm going to drop this. I'm

going to start something.' You won't

believe the energy that will suddenly

rise up in you, right? You'll suddenly

feel invigorated. You'll suddenly feel

youthful again.

I'm not stuck in this thing. I can try

something else.

I'm so intrigued by two things within

that. One of them was going back to the

case of Andrew who left Stanford and

became a podcaster was my brain you said

um he's an intelligent guy who would

have figured it out if he'd failed. My

brain also was saying

he could have always gone back.

And there's a real illusion sometimes I

think in most of our lives where we

don't realize that if we mess up in this

thing, as I think Jeff Bezos calls it,

this is probably

a type two decision where we can walk

back through the door. But it's this

sort of illusion that we're going to

really lose something great if we fail

that stops us taking that first step.

And the other thing I was curious about

is this idea that pain is is a catalyst

for change. And do people need to get to

that point in their lives where they go

"God, I'm just so sick of this." to

change? Can someone change before they

get there?

Unfortunately not. Sometimes the bottom

has to drop out before you realize what

you really want and what you really you

know need to get in life. Uh I wish it

weren't that way.

But um feeling like you're suffering and

that you need a change and that if you

go on this way bad things are going to

happen is the greatest motivator of all

because if you're

moderately discontented with your job,

you're going to constantly be justifying

it to yourself going

uh it's all right. It'll get better.

I'll get there'll be a new boss or I can

always move from this job to another

company similar. You'll justify and

you'll never get out of it and the trap

will just close in on you and you'll

never get out of it, right? It's those

moments where she

damn it, I hate this. I can't go on.

You know, I'm I'm heading to suicide.

I'm heading to depressed. I'm heading to

drinking. I'm hitting bottom.

I don't like where I'm going. It doesn't

have to be quite so drastic. I know I'm

exaggerating. But you have to feel a

degree of pain and frustration to say,

"I need to make a major change in my

life, you know?"

The other thing I say is

in the same book you were quoting on the

in in about warfare, I have what's

called the death ground strategy.

Where

you feel like

So, he's going into podcasting. And if

you go in with the attitude,

"Well, if I fail, I'll just go scurrying

back to Stanford." That's a recipe for

failure in itself already. Your attitude

is already half-assed. You're already

half into it. You go to yourself, "I got

to I'm cutting my ties at Stanford. If

this podcast doesn't work, I'm not going

back." It gives you the energy, the

motivation, the desire to actually make

it successful.

But if you're always going through life

kind of with half measures, going,

"Well, if I start this business and it

fails, I'll go back to living with my

parents and and I'll and I'll do this

other job." You're not going to put your

full energy into it. You're not going to

give all of yourself into it, and it's

probably going to fail.

It's really um

it's so true.

Um it reminded me of something I was

reading in one of the psychology

journals about a study they did with

participants where they

asked them to do a puzzle and offered

them a delicious snack as a reward.

And then in one group, they said, um

"This is the only way to get the snack

if you do this puzzle." And then in the

other group, they said, "By the way, the

same snack is also available in the

vending machine down the hall." And then

the people in the second group, where

they had a plan B, were less committed

to doing the puzzle, spent less time

trying to solve it, and did worse in the

puzzle. And it's this idea that a plan B

actually psychologically does distract

you from your plan A. Yeah.

We're we're animals, right? We have we

have a certain nature, which is what I

talk about in in human nature.

And

our

our earliest ancestors, to go back to

something I was talking about,

our brilliance or the power of our

species is

we are actually very physically weak

compared to like chimpanzees and

cheetahs and lions, etc., etc. But we

use our brain and feeling the necessity,

feeling that we're going to die unless

we don't solve these problems,

right?

If we don't use our brains, if we don't

create tools, if we don't work together

as a team, we're going to we're going to

we're going to die or we won't survive.

Is what makes us inventive, it's what

makes us creative.

It's almost like a barometric pressure.

I like that's the metaphor I like to

use.

What's that? When you feel that pressure

inside of you and it's very heavy, like

in like weather that's very, you know,

heavy and thick, you're motivated. You

feel it. I've got to get up in the

morning, I've got to do this, I've got

to accomplish this.

When that pressure goes away and and you

don't feel any pressure in your life,

you can do anything and there's no

consequences for it. You'll just waste

time, you'll waste years, you'll waste

months, you'll never accomplish

anything.

You give somebody a deadline,

right?

They'll accomplish in 2 months what

would take somebody 2 years to do

without a deadline. It's that necessity,

it's that sense of there's a there's a

sword at my back, I've got to get it

done. It makes you get things done, it

gives you the energy. It's get rich or

die trying to quote somebody.

You you talk about that in the

strategies um the book about the

strategies of war, the chapter four or

strategy number four is about creating a

sense of urgency and desperation.

And

when I was reading that, I was thinking,

to be fair, I don't know any great

leader that isn't a little bit urgent

and a little bit desperate.

And even if they feign that desperation

to galvanize people, there's something

about creating urgency and desperation

in your life that is an incredible

tailwind.

Is there any practical ways that you

think the average person can create a a

the required sense of urgency in their

life so they can get things done?

Well, it's kind of like a level here.

So, you need challenges in your life.

That's what That's sort of what the

death ground is about. You're

challenged, you better rise up to it. If

the challenge is too great, if you're if

it like

I'm I'm 24 and I've never written a

book, but I'm going to write the best

book ever. You're You're going to fail

cuz it's too far above you. You're never

going to reach it.

If it's too low, you're never going to

have the energy. It's too easy. It's not

going to motivate you. But, there's a

sweet spot. I don't know. I'm just, you

know, just drawing it here. Be like,

here. Where it's a challenge. It's above

what you're can do can do right now.

It's not so far above that you can't

possibly do it.

But, it's of enough of a challenge to

mean, "God, I better get my act

together. I better get the energy to get

to get there. I better, you know, change

what my habits are. I've got to get up

earlier. I've got to work harder. It's

not like I have to get up at 4:00 and

force myself and work out, etc. I can

get up at 6:00, 6:30, an hour earlier,

and I'm going to meet this challenge

that's a little bit above my level.

That's a powerful way of motivating

yourself. You need challenges. You need

constant challenges in life or you're

going to or you're going to stagnate.

It's just the law of nature.

You talk about false purpose as well.

Yeah. What is false purpose?

And how do we know the difference?

Your purpose in life

is something that you're born with. It's

like your destiny. This is what you were

meant to accomplish. This was what you

were meant to be what which you were

meant to do. And we were going through

We were talking about that

in terms of your childhood, etc.

Right?

But, we humans are not born with that

purpose engraved in our heads. We don't

wake up when we're seven go, "That's my

purpose." If it were that easy, it would

be that simple, right?

But, because we don't have any

direction, you know, animals don't wake

up in the morning, if they're not

nocturnal, go,

"What am I going to do today?

I can go here, I can hunt for this

animal, I'm going to hunt for that

animal. I can eat this No, they don't.

They operate by instinct. They don't

They have a purpose. It's It's

automatic, almost.

Okay, we don't have that. We have to

find our purpose.

And because it's so deep and it's so

important, that if we don't find it

through this authentic process I'm

talking about, we'll find it somewhere

else, because we need a purpose in life.

We need something to live for. What will

that be?

It will be drugs. It will be some kind

of cult that I have to join. It will be

some kind of political movement, where I

can get out all of my anger and vent all

of my frustrations. You know, it'll be

on and on and on. It's something that

has

to do with who you are personally,

but it's something that you can believe

in, and can give you a sense of purpose,

but it's not really who you are. It's

like a drug. It's drugging you into

believing that you have a purpose,

but it's not the real purpose that you

were born for. That's what I mean by

false purpose.

And when we find our purpose,

if we are

able to and lucky enough to discover it,

what's the variance in what someone's

capable of that's found their purpose

versus someone that hasn't, do you

think? Like, what's the difference in

how they show up, how they deliver, the

results they create, the impact they

have?

When you find your purpose,

it's like everything falls into place,

right? You don't need to You don't need

to almost do anything. You'll find

whatever you need to find. Things good

things will come to you.

I know that sounds woo-woo, I know that

sounds mystical, but I definitely

believe it,

right? And so, it's not like you have to

try so hard. Yes, you have to learn

skills. Yes, you have to apply yourself.

Yes, you have to work hard, etc., etc.,

etc. But things just go so much more

smoothly when you have it. So, for

instance, one thing that happens when

you have a sense of purpose

and I hate to it's something that I feel

so I I know my narcissism is coming out

again. Um

I know what I don't want.

That's You don't know the power of that.

You can't imagine how powerful that is.

So, people come to me all the time with

Robert, we can make a lot of money doing

this. We could try this. We could Let's

make a TV show out of the 48 Laws of

Power. Let's do this. Let's do that.

Let's make a game.

I'm not interested. It's not my purpose.

No, I don't want it. If I didn't have

that radar, I'd be spreading myself out

into eight different venues and I'd be,

you know, all of my energy would be

would be scattered. I wouldn't have that

focus and I'd probably end up being

pretty miserable because I would have

lost my purpose. But when you have a

sense of purpose, it's like No, I don't

want to do that. I don't want to do

that. I don't want to I want to do this.

Yeah, it can be rigid. You have to be a

little bit flexible. So, if somebody

comes to me and goes Robert, what about

this? I'm open to it. That sounds

moderately interesting. All right, maybe

I'll try it, you know? And I And I do

open things things like that. I'm going

to be doing In a month, I'm going to be

recording

a a French version of, you know, the

Masterclass.

There's a French version of that. So,

you know, I'm not so rigid where I can

only write books. I can try other things

because I can see value in it and it

interests me. It's a challenge. Being

able to say no

is so important and and is so

empowering. And that's what a sense of

purpose will give you to among other

things. There's a quote that says

something like

distractions come dressed up as

opportunities.

And to even know what a distraction is,

you first must understand what your goal

and what your purpose is, or else it's

impossible to distinguish between a

distraction, Robert, go let's go start a

game.

Or or an opportunity which is sounds

much more like that mastermind thing.

And I think about this all the time.

You know, the the more clear I am on the

goal and what my purpose is, the much

easier it is to understand what a

distraction is versus an opportunity,

cuz they do look the same when they come

in to my inbox. Yes. Well, the other

thing I do is I kind of game it out.

So, somebody comes to me and they go

let's do a television show the 48 Laws

of Power. And believe me, I've been

through that about 85 times people

coming to me that and we have even

attempted it.

But I go

I've worked in Hollywood, I've worked in

television before before I have my

books.

I know the process. I know how miserable

it can be.

I know how you have no power.

I'm a writer now where I write books

and I have all the power, I have all the

control.

You go into Hollywood, you go into

television or film

85 you know, 800 other people join in

and they all have their ideas and they

change this that and the other. You have

no power.

And and it's meetings and meetings and

meetings and talk talk talk talk talk. I

game it out and I go

I don't want to get into that trap.

I don't want to be spending a year

having meeting after meeting after

meeting hearing about this possibly

having it changed by this producer.

I game it out and I go, no, I don't want

to do it. Can you do that when you're

younger? Can a 21-year-old

No. Takes a lot of Takes a fair amount

of experience in life. Because when

you're 21, everything looks great and

exciting. Man, yeah, I'll do that. Why

not? Yeah, it'll be fun. I'll meet some

I'll meet some hot girls. I'll do this

that and the other. Great, you know,

what cetera cetera.

You know, you you you don't you don't

have that radar. You you everything

looks exciting and enticing. It takes

the pain, I keep going back to that, of

things that you wasted your time in and

things that failed, things that you

didn't like to teach you

the ability to say no and to save your

energy for what you really love. Should

a young person just be saying yes to

everything?

You know, the problem that we have is

everything is has to be this way or that

way. It has to be black or white and

it's not like that. It's kind of in

between.

You can learn to dance in life. You

don't have to go this way or that way.

You can kind of do both. So, the best

advice I give people is

your 20s

are the best years of your life.

Actually, I think the 30s are, but let's

just say for for argument's sake, your

20s. You're young. You probably look

pretty good. You're healthy. You know,

you've got all these things going on for

you.

I want you to have some fun and I want

you to have adventures. I don't want you

to be 22 and go and get a job at Goldman

Sachs for the rest of your life. So,

that you need fun, you need adventure,

you need some looseness. You know, you

want some experiences.

But, it has to have some direction to

it. It can't just be I'm going to write

poetry. I'm going to do rock and roll.

I'm going to go and learn chemistry. I'm

going to, you know, become, you know,

this that and the other. No connection

at all between all of these things. Just

trying everything for the sake of

novelty.

That's a recipe for not being successful

because what you wanted to happen is

you're 30 years old now. You've let your

20s are behind you. It's usually a time

of reckoning where you go, "Shit,

I'm not so young anymore. Okay, you

know, I'm getting older.

All right, I've had my fun. I've had

adventure. I'm ready for something

serious and I've learned some real

skills in life. I've For me personally,

I learned how to write. Um or whatever

it is. You didn't just go try 80

different things. You you you kind of

had four or five that you did you you

experimented with. All right, now I know

what I love. Now I can go down that

path.

And in mastery

I often tell the story to people of one

of the masters I interviewed was Paul

Graham who is the man who started Y

Combinator. You probably heard of Y

Combinator.

He was somebody who got into AI

when he was like 18 19 years old. He was

like at MIT, I believe. Right? Back in

the late 70s when nobody was even

thinking about it.

Okay? He was a hacker.

Cuz his father was was a scientist who

had computers back in the 70s and he

learned how to hack early on.

Okay? So he went down the process of

going into academia, of

of going into programs of compu- com-

computer programming, etc. etc.

And he was on a track just like Huberman

at MIT to become a professor, to become

proficient in and he hated it.

It was soul-sucking. He didn't like the

politics. He didn't like dealing with

the people. He didn't like academia. So

he quit

and he became a painter.

Because that's he loved design and he

loved visuals. He comes back to New

York.

He's living in a loft. He's painting.

He's He's happy and he's not making any

money.

And then he hears an advertisement on

the radio

for I I think it was maybe Netscape or

one of the earliest um you know

uh internet whatever you call them. And

they're saying the future in in in for

computers is being able to sell buy and

sell products on the internet.

He ends up creating the first I think

one of the prototype for all the things

that we have now.

Yahoo ended up buying it for like $5

million.

And then the let rest is history.

He spent his 20s trying something out,

learning real skills. He went somewhere

else, learning something that he loved,

and then he's 30 and he combines the two

together.

And he's he's a classic example because

he he gets very bored easily.

So, he Y Combinator is worth billions of

dollars, extremely successful, he sells

it and gets into something else cuz he

likes writing, etc. He's always He's

kind of a prototype for a lot of what

we're talking about.

We've spoken a lot about self-awareness

and self and all those kinds of things.

What about other people?

You know,

the only thing that seems to stand in

the way of all of our goals in life are

other people.

So, if I if I want to become

exceptional at understanding the human

nature of other people and using it in

my favor,

where do I start there? What are the the

sort of foundations of being great at

using other people's human nature to my

advantage? That sounds very narcissistic

and very

awful, but it's

It's It is what it is. Part of it is

what it is, exactly.

People, as I said, the main mistake we

make in dealing with other people, and

it's and it's a common mistake that I

make as well, is we take the appearances

for reality.

We take their masks for how they appear

to us, for their politeness, for their

smiles, for their saying, "Oh, I loved

you," etc., for the reality.

And we have to learn

that to look behind people's masks. We

have to learn what's really really going

on behind them.

And we have to learn some basics about

human nature.

People like to believe that they're

essentially good,

you know, saintly, virtuous, however you

want to do it. People want to believe

that they're intelligent, they're You

never want to feel like, "I'm not

stupid. I'm intelligent." And the other

third thing is that they're that they're

willpower, that they're in control of

their lives, they do things because they

decided to do it.

To tell to make people feel insecure

about their intelligence, right? To make

them feel like they're not moral or

they're not good. To make them feel like

they do things not because they choose

to it because they were forced to or

because they they're not aware of

themselves.

They hate that. They're going to hate

you. They're going to resent you.

They're going to resist you.

Knowing some basics about people like

that gives you the power to use that for

influence, for persuasion, okay?

Understanding envy in the human world

and on social media envy is just an is

like a nuclear bomb. It's just exploded

our tendency to feel envy, to compare

ourselves to other people.

You've got to use that for power.

There's great power in that in a

marketing publicity sense, virality,

what getting other people to be

interested in what other people are

doing. That's how things sell

themselves. If you try and tell people

what they should buy as opposed to look

at what other people are doing. I want

to join in on that, right? Knowing about

these basic qualities in human nature,

about how we like to compare ourselves,

how we have these certain opinions about

ourselves, etc., etc.

Gives you all of this power

to take that human nature and use it for

whatever purposes you want for good or

unfortunately some people use it for

bad.

Do we have to lie to be successful?

And I say this because

through reading some of your work, I I

heard sentences such as you should keep

your true intentions hidden in social

situations. Um you say a lot about like

kind of cloaking yourself in various

ways. You talk about showing up as an

actor.

That sometimes we do need to show up as

an actor in our lives. So, in order to

be truly successful, I know it's a

little bit of a difficult question,

but do we have to lie?

Look, Steven, being a human being means

we lie.

Right? The moment you open your mouth

and you speak,

you are essentially not telling the

truth.

You know what doesn't lie?

Body language. Nonverbal communication.

The way you smile, the look in your

eyes, you can't lie about that.

But children, 3 or 4 years old,

are already learning to craft what they

say to Mommy or Daddy to get what they

want. They're very clever, they're very

strategic, right?

They know that if they if they say that

they what they exactly want, they won't

get it. They learn to kind of whine and

complain and put a certain tone in their

voice and to be an actor.

A social animal like we are, we are

actors in life.

Get over this idea about guilting about

about it. I'm so sick of that. We are

actors. We are descended from

chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are consummate

actors. Read the literature on that.

They know how to deceive incredibly well

and they don't even have language to

deceive, right?

So, we are actors. The moment you go out

in the public, you're not telling

people, "Oh, you're fat, you're ugly,

your writing sucks, you da da da da da

da da, I don't like what you're

wearing." You never do that. You're an

actor.

When you see your father, you act a

certain way. When you see a little kid,

you act a certain way. When you see a

little kitty cat, you have a certain

tone in your voice. When you deal with

your boss, the person who pays for the

for your podcast, I don't know if there

is such a person, you wear your act a

different way. You're constantly

changing how who you are and how you

act. One moment you're Robert De Niro,

the next moment you're I don't know what

other actor you are, but you you're

changing your roles depending on who

you're dealing with.

I'm so tired of people not recognizing

this fact that we are all actors, that

we are constantly deceiving. Yes, there

are differences, there are qualities of

lying.

You know, I understand that. There's

Donald Trump lying and there's the lying

of the everyday white lies in which we

have to say certain things to get ahead.

So, there

are degrees. I understand that. And some

lying can be very harmful and and very

counterproductive in the end.

But, the moment you enter the world and

the moment you open your mouth, you are

in some ways already an actor and you

are already using forms of deception.

Why can't we be our true selves?

Because it would irritate uh people.

Because it would grate.

You know?

I don't know about you, but I appreciate

politeness.

Right? I go somewhere and I know

someone's being polite. I know that

they're not necessarily meaning it,

but it's nice.

Right? It's kind of smooth. It kind of

makes everything sort of smooth.

If people weren't polite, it'd all be

grating and like two pieces of metal

constantly hitting each other. You'd be

so annoying, you'd want to kill yourself

or you'd want to kill people. You'd

become kill a murderer.

You know?

Social life depends on that kind of

smoothness those interactions.

So, we need that to some degree. If we

were just always telling people what we

really thought,

our our world would collapse tomorrow.

What about showing our weakness? I've

got this quote from you that says,

"If you are weak and ask for little,

little is what you will get. But, if you

act strong,

making firm, even outrageous demands,

you will create the opposite impression.

People will think that you are confident

and that it must be based on something

real. You will earn their respect,

which in turn will translate to real

leverage."

Well, it's it's about certain

situations.

So, I don't want you to apply that idea

to everything in life. And some people

make the mistake when they read the 48

Laws of Power, they think, "Well, I'm

going to use that everywhere." No,

it applies to certain situations.

So,

let's say you're negotiating.

And I know I dealt with this myself. I'm

actually

a fairly timid person by nature, but

I've learned to cultivate the opposite.

So, if you're negotiating a price for

what you want for your time, for your

services,

and you're not very confident, and you

kind of ask for a little, that's what

you're going to get because people

aren't going to they're assuming that

you're that you're not really up to the

task.

You say, "Uh all right, $20,000 is

enough." That's what they'll give you.

But, if you raise your price high, and

you say it with the right voice, and you

believe in it, they're going to go,

"Wow, that person is is confident." And

if they turn you down, that's fine

because somebody else will give you that

price.

If you you set your own value by what

you believe about yourself. If you think

that you're worthless,

if you're not very good at it, other

people pick that up. And when you as you

were talking, I was thinking about um

Adam Neumann from WeWork, and this

conversation I heard with him and the

founder of SoftBank in the back of a

taxi where Adam Neumann's asking for a

billion, and then the owner of SoftBank,

this very eccentric Chinese, very rich

Asian man goes, "Do you know what, Adam?

The only problem with you

is that you're not ambitious enough."

Ah. And he writes him a check, I

believe, for like five or 10 billion

dollars in the back of this taxi after

like something like 12 minutes of being

with him. And I always thought about

that and thought, "Jesus, what if I just

started asking life for way more? If I

just multiplied all of these emails that

I send and requests I make by 10,

what would happen to my life over the

course of 10 years?" Well, yeah, and

probably you probably would have gotten

a lot more than you got

without asking for that. Um

Yeah, because

we are creatures that as I said before

we look at the appearances of things.

Look, it's it's very very easy metaphor

here.

You go into a social situation like a

party

and you go up to somebody who's kind of

nervous and insecure and anxious. And

I'm not criticizing that because we all

have insecurities. I have many of them

myself. But you go up to somebody like

that

and it makes you feel kind of nervous

and insecure.

Right? And you're kind of fumbling for

words and it kind of goes a bit of

awkwardness happens.

Reverse that and you go up to somebody

else and they're kind of confident. They

look you in the eye.

You know, their voice is strong, their

body language is strong. They connect to

you.

Whoa, you think it brings you out that

part of you was like that. You might be

intimidated, but it also might bring out

your own kind of confidence. So

I remember

being around 50 Cent

who's a very charismatic, confident to

the point of ridiculousness.

And it was very infectious. I felt that

way after being around him for a couple

hours. I was with him for several

months. It rubbed off on me, right? We

have these kind of viral contagious

effects by people. So if you project

strength and confidence

you know, and I understand it's a little

different for women which is

an interesting subject because sometimes

projecting that for a woman

will rub the wrong way because people

will think that

and it's terrible quality thing about us

that that women are judged by a

different standard where that will seem

like they're a [ __ ] or something like

that. So I understand there are nuances

here and that the game is different for

women as it is for people of other

ethnicities as well, you know? So, it's

not just one way or the other.

But, to the degree

that even for the woman that you have

this air of confidence, that you believe

in what you're doing, that you believe

you're worth it,

it projects itself to other people. You

don't have to scream and shout, and you

don't have to demand $10 billion. But,

if you feel confident, if you feel

you're worth this amount of money, it'll

project outward to other people. Body

language. Yeah. Let's talk about that.

Does it You know, you said earlier it's

one of the things we can't lie about.

Is there anything that you still look

for in today when you're trying to read

someone? Their body language. Are there

certain cues? Is there postures or Well,

you know, you you got to

in reading nonverbal communication, it's

a different form of intelligence. It's

not algorithms, it's not

formulaic. It's human, it's emotional,

it's empathetic. It's a reading without

words. It's a tuning yourself to other

people.

So, I attune myself to people's

emotions, to the vibe that they give off

in an overall sense. A gestalt is one

thing that I like to do. So, if I had to

give it a word, I would say anxious. Or,

I would have to say

outgoing and extroverted. Or, I would

have to say impatient or whatever.

There's an energy that kind of defines

them. It's a word, and that word is not

precise, but there is an overall feel

that I get from a person. And then, I'm

always looking at specifics.

It's not like I'm sitting there

consciously in my head going through a

checklist. I'm just feeling certain

things. And I'm feeling

that the eyes are kind of dead.

They're not engaging with me.

And you can't put that into words, but

you know the feeling. So, when someone's

looking at you, but they're not really

looking at you, you know what that feels

like, don't you? Mhm.

And a lot of

psychopathic people, a lot of

narcissists, do that. So, part of their

face pretends to be interested in you.

They are looking at you in the eye, but

they're not really looking at you.

They're thinking of something else.

They're seeing in you what they can get

out of you. They're seeing you as an

object, right?

Eyes are hard to lie. They tell you

something.

Now, actors

very

skilled actors can kind of create some

of these impressions, but one thing that

they can't fake is the tone in their

voice.

And actors will tell you that it's the

hardest thing to actually consciously

control.

So, the voice of a person tells you a

lot about their confidence levels, tells

you a lot about

you know, how

just about their general emotional tone,

about their character, about who they

are.

It's very difficult to fake.

And when it's hesitant, when it's

like stammering, when it's not, you

know, you can kind of sense something

from people's voice, and it's very hard

to fake. And then the smile, the smile

tells you a hundred different things if

you know how to read it.

There's the

authentic smile,

which I'm not going to fake right now,

but I just

it lights up the whole face, you know?

Like you really feel joy.

You can't you don't you can't fake it.

Your eyes go up, your cheeks go up,

everything kind of connects together,

right? The fake smile

you know. Yeah.

We've all seen the fake smile.

Just when the mouth goes up and the rest

of the face doesn't bother. Steven, I

really like you. You're really

wonderful.

You know?

Most of the time most smiles are fake,

but you can kind of when you see the

genuine smile and you go, that's what

caused the genuine smile, you should

become aware of that. And then body

language tells you a lot like

is somebody when they're talking to you

and you're standing up at a at a party

is their body kind of facing another

direction while they're talking to you?

Are they kind of looking out there way

while they're talking to you? That means

they're not really interested in you.

They're not really engaged in you,

right?

Also

when you catch people by surprise and

they don't have the time to put on a

fake smile. I often tell people to do

this.

Like

there's somebody in your office

and you don't know whether they're a

snake or whether they're actually

genuinely your friend but you suspect go

either way.

You kind of approach them from an angle,

right?

And you surprise them and you come up to

them and you go, they look at you and

for a second you detect what we call a

micro expression of

of disdain and then they put on the

smile.

That micro expression

which scientists psychologists have

studied last for like

less than a second, much less than a

second. You have to be able to read it

but it reveals whether they actually

like you or they're totally false. They

can't fake it. So, if you come to

straight on they'll oh, hi Stephen. I

love it. Great to see you. They come to

you. Oh, they they kind of pretend then

they try and act and you you can get

clues like that.

There's so many ways to read body

language. It's such a fascinating

subject. I could go on for hours about

it. How important is it? You know,

you're talking about colleagues and team

members there and earlier you said that

people are contagious. How important do

you think it is to the

success of our lives and I paused there

because success means it's a personal

thing, it's a professional thing

to surround ourselves with

the right group of people and to be

intentional about that. It's very

important. Um

I have a chapter in Excuse me, in the 48

Laws of Power about infection.

And um I think it's an experience many

of us have had

where you're around somebody

who seems at first glance to be very

interesting.

And they they they become your friend,

maybe.

They're very dramatic.

And they have all these stories to tell.

And they seem almost slightly larger

than life.

And you engage with them.

And then you become friends.

And then slowly slowly slowly it becomes

clear

that that they're a little bit nuts,

right? They're always talking about how

this person screwed them, how that

person screwed them, how this

boyfriend or girlfriend was so awful and

so nasty. You going to re- You going to

realize

is this true or is it maybe they're that

the prob- they are the problem. But now

that you're a friend and now you're

emotionally attached to them and now

they have room to play all these kind of

games on you and all of their drama

starts infecting you.

And it's like, god damn it, I want to

get away from this person, but I can't.

They've infected you with their negative

energy and it gets under your skin.

And so

uh you have to avoid people like that.

You have to read before you get involved

with them that they are a drama queen or

a drama king cuz there just as many men

out there who have this quality.

You have to see that they are

that they play the victim of all of

everybody else, but actually they kind

of bring it on to themself. Some people

are genuinely unfortunate. Bad things

have happened to them and it's not their

fault.

I'm never saying it's a misconception

about that chapter

that you should avoid everybody who's

unfortunate. There are people and a lot

of people out there whose circumstances

have put made them, you know, in this

this

what's going on. It's not their fault,

right? But there are other people you

have to recognize that the bad things

that happened to them are things that

they have brought on because they have

this infecting power. It comes from deep

insecurity. You don't want them in your

life.

Being around insecure people will make

you insecure.

Being around confident people

who kind of know what they're doing,

who've got their act together, who are

trying to make things and accomplish

things, because there's so many people

out there who talk and talk and talk but

never do anything.

Being around people who do things, who

get things done, who've made a business,

who've made this, that, or the other,

they're gold to be around cuz they'll

infect you with their positive energy.

Frenemies.

Yeah.

Do we all have frenemies and how do we

spot frenemies?

Well, hopefully we all don't have them.

But in the laws of human nature and in

several of my books I talk about the

phenomenon of envy, which is very, very

powerful human trait.

It has roots, very ancient roots. We

know that in hunter-gatherer societies

from thousands of years ago, envy was a

real problem. And so they created all

kinds of rituals to avoid envy. Where

the moment somebody in a tribe received

a gift, they had to give it to other

members so they wouldn't face envy

because facing envy you could be

murdered for it. So you learned all

these rituals and we've noticed that

chimpanzees feel envy. You give someone

of the higher-up chimps cuz they're very

hierarchical a grape and all of a sudden

all the other chimps are very wanting

that grape as well and they feel envy

and etc. etc. So it's an extremely human

emotion.

The thing that we don't realize though

that the people most likely to feel

envy, first of all, we all feel envy.

We're all comparing ourselves to other

people. I feel it all the time.

Right now, I envy Ryan Holiday because

he's

you know, some 30 years younger. He's

sold so many books. You know, he's got

all this great stuff. I I know I know

what envy is like. I feel it. We all

feel small degrees of envy.

But there are people I call it passive

envy. But active envy means people act

on it. They do something to hurt you.

They sabotage you in some way.

Frenemies are the classic scenario. So

somebody

who feels envious of you

end up befriending you.

And consciously, they may not be even

aware of that. They think, well, I would

do want to like them. But unconsciously,

they feel envy. They think that you have

success that you don't necessarily that

they deserve. That you have what they

want, right? They become your friend.

And they they charm you, etc., etc. And

then lo and behold, you start noticing

all kinds of behavior that's very ugly,

that you weren't expecting cuz you're

they're your friend. They start saying

[ __ ] comments that get under your skin

that make you feel insecure.

They take things from you. They act in

ways that are hurtful. But because

they're your friend, your first instinct

is to blame yourself.

Well, maybe it's my fault that they've

done this. Maybe I'm actually to blame

for what for what they're saying, etc.,

etc.

So I believe

behind the frenemies phenomenon is this

this phenomena of envy where the person

secretly wants what you have and they're

becoming your friends so that they can

wound you.

And what's best to do is to recognize

that. And one common sign of a frenemy,

of somebody who's befriending you out of

envy is they're in a rush to be your

friend.

Normally,

we like to take it a little bit slow. We

just don't let anybody into our lives.

We like to vet them a little bit

beforehand, right? We don't trust

everybody.

But the person who feels envy is like,

"I love you. You're fantastic. I want to

be your friend. We got to hang out.

Let's go out for dinner the next night."

etc. etc. They're in a hurry. That's a

sign that something else is going on

because that's not natural. What about

when friends become frenemies?

Because sometimes through the process of

us changing, Yes.

you might inspire that envy.

Yes, like your status changes. We've all

had to deal with that. I've had to deal

with that as well. You have success

and you you came from a background where

you where where you weren't so

successful and your friends are still

there

and they envy you and they're not very

nice to you.

And uh

you know, it's a it's not a good quality

and I've I've I've I've understand the

quality. I understand where it comes

from.

And I've I've wrote about it in human

nature.

Where we're all aware

of the of the of the what we call

Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude means you

take pleasure in other people's pain.

So, you hear a friend

didn't get the job that they wanted to

get

and you go, "Oh, I'm sorry." But deep

down inside you're kind of

kind of happy. You know, and we all go

through that, right?

The opposite is Mitfreude. It's an

expression that Nietzsche coined, which

means you feel joy for other people.

I like to try and

cultivate some of the higher qualities

in life. So, if something good happens

to somebody,

I've My first thing is I might feel a

twinge of envy, but then I go, "It's

great for them." I'm actually very

happy. I'm excited. I share their joy in

what has happened, right? But it's not

natural. So when somebody that you know

and you've known for a long time has

success in life,

your first thing is to be

They didn't deserve it. They kind of

cheated their way to it.

Okay, as we talked about in the very

beginning, you confront that ugly

emotion yourself and you go, "That's not

who I want to be." And you go, "I'm

going to make myself feel the opposite.

I'm going to make myself feel happy for

their success."

It's not natural and most people don't

go through that and I know personally

from people I knew before

I had any success in life.

They're the ones that give me the fewest

amount of compliments for my books.

They never read my books in the first

place. They're very spare with their

with what they say. They've got a

pinched look on their face.

Whereas people I've never met before in

my life give me all kinds of

compliments.

Why is that? Because they're envious.

They're upset. Are you

Are you threatening them? Because they

see themselves

like you because they knew you and you

were you're from where they were from,

so you're even more threatening. You're

holding up a mirror to them in a way

that makes them feel even more

uncomfortable.

Well, they're not going to feel that

way. So what people will go through in

that sense is

and this is how I I I I I think it

through.

"Oh, Robert sold himself out."

"He wrote a book that's evil, that's

nasty, that's manipulative. I didn't

think he was like that. I thought he was

this nice person."

"Oh, I don't like his book, it's ugly."

They'll go through that process. They'll

stay my friend because we've had years

and years

together. I was very, very common, at

least I know that. They go through They

do that with my books, even though my

later books aren't like The 48 Laws of

Power. They still have it ingrained that

this guy who who used to be so sweet and

nice wrote these nasty, evil,

manipulative, Machiavellian books. He

sold out. What is it at the heart of the

48 Laws of Power that some people

are

triggered by?

Like what is the What What was the

single most triggering concept or the

most um controversial or the concept

that people just had a surface level

allergic reaction to on site?

Without even really reading it, they

just Oh, they don't know. Yeah, they

read the back of the book. They read the

names of the laws and they go, "Oh,

that's

That's ugly."

And a lot of times

they've had to deal with ugly people in

their lives. And so that's when I see I

see the authentic disgust reaction. I

understand it. That they had to deal

with someone who's very manipulative.

And they find it disgusting.

Of course, when I get to have a rational

discussion with them and I calm down

their emotional reaction, I said,

"Look, if you had The 48 Laws of Power

before this person manipulated you, they

would have never been able to manipulate

you. That book is the best defense you

could ever have in your life. It's like

a shield. Once you've read it, you know

all the tricks people are playing on

you, right? They know they're posing as

a friend and acting like a spy, right?

They're concealing their intentions. You

know, etc. etc. etc. It's showing you

all of these tricks."

Okay, but that's when they calm down and

I'm able to say that. But

the idea

that we're not angels,

that we don't all have the best

intentions in life,

that I'm writing a manual, they think,

for how to manipulate, how to deceive,

how to con people, triggers people very