With Joe Rogan as my partner, we sold

out in 12 hours. Zero to 60 million.

How? Step one.

It was [ __ ] wild. Aubrey Marcus. The

man who built and sold On [music] It

with Joe Rogan. One of the fastest

growing human performance companies in

America. My mother was a professional

tennis player. My father was a pioneer,

and that was the driving desire. It's

like, my parents were big. I know I can

be big, and I was frustrated because

nothing was happening. There was so many

failures, and I really thought like, I'm

just never going to succeed. But, I

think the key moment for me was when Joe

Rogan said, "I can meet you 30 minutes

for coffee." I was starting a supplement

company. I went to Joe, "What supplement

would you like the [music] most? I'm

going to make the best one that's ever

been made." That was the pivotal moment

that changed everything. Alpha Brain. I

really felt like I didn't want to do

anything without it. We sold out of that

product in 12 hours. We could barely

keep it in stock. [music] From zero to

60 million, we were Inc. 500 fastest

growing company over the next 4 years. I

mean, I couldn't have designed a fantasy

better.

But, it comes with a cost, right?

In that moment, I realized like, I'm not

going to fly into a fit of rage and hurt

somebody.

You can see how much it still affects

me.

What happened?

Before this episode starts, I have a

small favor to ask from you. Two months

ago, 74% of people that watch this

channel didn't subscribe. We're now down

to 69%.

My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked

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like this channel, can you do me a quick

favor and hit the subscribe button? It

helps this channel more than you know,

and the bigger the channel gets, as

you've seen, the bigger the guest get.

Thank you, and enjoy this episode.

[music]

[music]

Aubrey.

When I

read through your story, and a lot of

people's story, what I tend to see is a

series of almost dominos that have

fallen to make the person who they are

today that's sat in front of me. Can you

take me to the first domino that you

think was significant um in your life

that fell to make the man that I see sat

in front of me today that I've spent the

last couple of days learning and

researching about.

I mean, the first domino was my mother

giving birth to me, of course, right?

Like, it starts from the drop. It starts

and we can't ignore all of the things

that happened at birth that have nothing

to do with us. And I was super blessed.

My mother was a professional tennis

player. Went to the semi-finals of

Wimbledon. Lost to Billie Jean King.

Like, legit professional tennis player.

My father was a commodities trader, and

he was a pioneer in his field. So, he

was actually

kind of stretching what the market and

what the world understood about futures

trading. He's written up in a book

called Market Wizards.

They split up really early, and so I got

two more parents. My stepmother was a

naturopathic doctor who worked with a

lot of the NBA basketball teams and the

Lakers in the '80s, the Knicks in the

'90s, the Heat in the 2000s, but from

the naturopathic side, not within the

team aspect of it.

And then, my stepfather was a SWAT team

squad officer. Just big, badass, burly

man.

And from all of those sources, I got

models of greatness. I got models of

really

testing yourself to see what you're

capable of, and I think that's like the

foundation

of what I was. And then, there's my

grandmother who inspired this like

craving desire for knowledge, just to

learn about the world.

And I think the key moment for me with

all of that framework with my parents,

that craving for knowledge instilled by

my grandmother. My grandmother's

tattooed on my arm, actually.

And then, I go and do my first

psychedelic medicine journey after high

school when I'm 18 years old. And I

really feel like I want to

find the knowledge and then be able to

distribute that to the world in an

interesting way. I wanted to build my

own

legacy, so to speak.

And in that first psychedelic medicine

ceremony,

I felt my body disappear, and I felt

what I could only call consciousness, or

maybe even use the word soul, even

though I wasn't religious at all. So, I

didn't believe in souls, but I felt

something come online.

And that was kind of the the genesis of

me being where I am now, even though

that doesn't have a lot to do with all

my business accomplishments and anything

else. It's just

this desire to be great because it was

modeled for me in the parents that I

had, this thirst and quest for

knowledge. That quest for knowledge

turned inward with the psychedelic

medicine journey. So, I was looking

inside. That's the field of

psychonautics, which is really the field

that I'm the most passionate about.

Psychonautics, the exploration of the

inner

aspects, the inner cosmos of who we are.

And then, offering what I learn out to

the world. And sometimes, that comes out

in the form of products and practices

and workout equipment and supplements,

like with the company On It that I

started. Sometimes, it's with a podcast

or a poem or a story.

And uh yeah, that's probably one way to

look at uh who is Aubrey Marcus. If you

were to draw a circle around all of

those products, the content, the

podcast, On It, and then your current

mission today through all of the work

you're doing, what is the similar What

is the mission there? If I don't ask you

If I ask you right now, what is your

mission

in life,

what would it be?

If you were to ask me,

I don't know, 15 years ago,

it would have been just to make a big

impact. I just want to be big. I want to

be big. My parents were big. I know I

can be big. I feel it in me. I feel like

there's something big that's supposed to

emerge, right? And I was frustrated

because nothing was happening.

And so, I founded my company and I

created On It, and then things started

to get big. I started my podcast, things

started to get big. I wrote my book,

things started to get bigger. And that

was the driving desire, right? It was

actually And yes, I wanted it to be for

the good of all. I've always felt very

connected to everybody else and

recognized that you sitting across from

me right here, you're just me living a

different life, right? Like, we're all

part of the same source of life itself.

So, I did always have this belief like,

I want to contribute to the greater good

of all.

As one of my teachers, Don Howard, said,

"Para el bien de todos." For the good of

all. So, that was always there, but it

was a lot more about me. It was a lot

more about me being big,

if I'm being honest.

And now, right now, some of that's

removed. It's like I've a I've

accomplished that thing where it's like,

Aubrey has made his mark, but that

doesn't even matter anymore. Now, I look

out at the whole world and I say, "All

right, world, what do you need? And what

do you need from Aubrey? Like, what can

Aubrey do to help you the most? Like, I

hear you. Like, I know that you're

hurting.

And I know that you're beautiful. You're

beautiful in every way.

And what can I do

to actually serve the world in the best

way possible? And that's the that's the

mission, man.

Your parents breaking up at 2 years old.

Was that significant for you in

hindsight? Do you look back as an adult?

Do you Is that a significant moment?

The ramifications of that were

incredibly significant because it

brought in my stepmother and my

stepfather into the constellation of my

family. So,

there could be very few things that were

more significant than that, as I had

four models of parent rather than two.

And with four, I was able to get a much

more well-rounded approach. Like, the

difference between my father and my

stepfather were immense. What were these

differences?

Well, my father was

an incredibly

acute and attuned intellectual,

philosopher, a thinker, you know, he was

able to actually analyze, a logician. He

was able to analyze the world in this

very kind of philosophical way, and it

helped shape my mind in that way. My

stepfather brought that bear energy of

what it is to be a man, the physicality.

He was always the best to play with as a

kid, too, because of course, you want to

play with the bear. They know how to

roll around and laugh and tell stories,

and you sit on their shoulders, and you

go climbing around. And and it's not

that either both parent didn't have a

little bit of that, but they were very

different archetypes. And so, my

understanding about what it means to be

a man included so many different things.

It included

the eloquence of being able to write

poetry and solve problems and play

Scrabble and play chess, and it involved

also brute force wrestling and playing

and telling stories and standing you

know, standing as a hero against that

which didn't serve, you know? And

and so, with two models of father,

I got to actually

have a much more well-rounded kind of

idea of what it meant to be a man. Was

there lessons that you had to unlearn?

From that? Of course. Yeah, I mean, you

don't learn just the positive aspects of

your parents. You learn the negative

aspects of your parents, too. You Those

Those are learned in

in ways that your mind can't even

comprehend. So, things that my dad was

stressed about, I find myself being

stressed about because I transmitted

this kind of general sense of worry

about things. So, I've had to unlearn

those aspects of worry. My father also,

you know,

was want to fly into fits of rage at a

certain point.

I remember one time,

um this is a a very like

very important story in my own

trajectory,

uh cuz my father, when he would get

angry, he would start He would just

yell, you know, just like he would just

erupt. And

um

it was early and early after I started

on it. It was probably 2013, 2014. And

we had a smaller office then, not the

smallest office. It was the second

biggest office that we had.

And I had my own office, and I was in

there, and I was filming a video, and it

was an important video for me to film.

And we had a kind of front desk customer

service person also in the office who

was handling emails, customer service

things, and also handling anybody coming

in the door.

Something came up where she

started knocking on the door. Well, I

didn't know it was her that was knocking

on the door. I didn't really know who

was knocking on the door. I was trying

to film a video. And back then, we

didn't have a bunch of video editors, so

it wasn't like we weren't able to just

stop. I had to kind of hit it in one

take. You know, we didn't have the tech

resources then. So, I'm like 5 minutes

into this take, I'm killing it, and this

knock comes. And then a second knock,

and then a third knock. And finally, by

the third knock, I couldn't ignore it

anymore. It was throwing me off my

mental track, and I just started yelling

like, "What?

What is it you What the [ __ ] do you

want?" You know, like one of those

moments where I just got really angry.

And then, I hear like, "I'm sorry."

And I was like, "Oh, man, that was That

was our front desk girl. She was just a

sweetheart, like absolute sweetheart,

like the sweetest."

And And I like

take a deep breath, and I like open the

door.

And I walk out there, and she's crying

at her desk.

[snorts]

In that moment, I realized like, "I'm

not going to do that ever again. Like,

I'm not going to do that shit."

I'm not going to fly into a fit of rage

and hurt somebody.

You know, I won't Like, I won't. And

you can see how much it still affects

me, you know, because

that was the point that that pattern

broke for me.

And it's not that it Not that I haven't

gotten mad since then or whatever, but

never like that.

You know, and there's something else in

me that's like, "No, never again."

Because I saw her.

And I saw what I did.

And And of course, I apologized. And But

that's where I stopped that lineage

transmission

and said, "It stops with me."

Where did that

lineal transmission start?

In your father?

Did you ever figure that out?

Yeah, with his with his father.

You know, I mean, it I don't know how

far it went back. I mean, I don't have a

strong genealogical tree. I didn't even

get to meet either of my grandfathers,

actually. But

uh I've heard the stories.

You know, I heard the stories of that.

My dad did the best to kind of shed as

much of the trauma that he could shed,

so he would pass on as little as

possible to me.

And he did his best. And And he was

actually the one that encouraged me to

go on my own psychedelic journey because

that was one of the tools that he used

to try and actually change who he is,

so that he could be better for me and be

better for the world.

And he did He did a great job, you know,

compared to the stories of my

grandfather to him, he did a amazing

job. And it was my job to clean up the

rest. And that's what I'm in the process

of doing is cleaning up the rest.

So, that when I have my son, Huxley's

going to be his name,

you know, of course, source willing that

that we have a we have a child,

I don't want to pass any of that on. I

just want to pass the legacy, a new

fresh fresh legacy, like fresh powder on

a on a mountain, you know, like fresh

tracks, a legacy of love, a legacy of

support, a legacy of like, "I'm here,

son."

And also, you're so much more powerful

than you think you are. And let me show

you. And bring him through all of the

initiations, the sweat lodges, the cold

mountains like I've climbed with Wim

Hof, the

when he's old enough, the medicine

journeys. Bring him through this path of

initiation, but the whole way, just love

love love the whole way, where that

never wavers. So, he's not trying to

prove something to me so that he can get

me to love him. He knows that I love

him. Are you speaking about a younger

version of yourself and your father when

you say that about that approval?

Of course. Of course. Have you got an

example of

when you realized that you would you

were following that pattern?

[laughter]

I mean, the example's most of my whole

life, right? Like,

"Am I doing it right? Am I doing it

right, Dad?"

You know, "Am I doing it good enough,

Dad?" Is it was the subconscious

dialogue that I've been in for a long

time. Now,

it's It was my father first,

you know, so that My father was Dad. So,

my Michael Marcus represented that image

of Dad. But

it would transfer to other people. It

could transfer to a mentor. It could

transfer to a partner. It could transfer

to a boss. And I would put this kind of

approval-seeking

desire on them. They would be the

surrogate father, and I would be trying

to show them how good I am. And And then

then, they would love me. Just like when

I scored 25 points in a basketball game,

my dad was all [ __ ] love and happy.

And when I scored, you know, seven

points and had a bad shooting night,

it's not that he didn't love me, but it

felt like he didn't love me cuz he was

just quiet and sullen. And I was quiet

and sullen, and all of the All of the

love felt like it'd been sucked out of

the room like a vacuum.

Right? So, I learn And that's just one

example of many different ways that I

learned that if you perform well, you're

loved. And if you don't, you're not

loved. What's this ping pong story?

Yeah.

Well, that was That was just one of the

moments that my father

just flew into rage, you know, so I was

4 years old, and

my father was playing ping pong,

and he mishit a ball. It hit off the

corner of the paddle, flew up into the

into the stratosphere, basically, cuz he

was trying to hit a smash. And I go,

"Home run."

I'm just a kid. I was like, I thought

that was a funny thing to say. But for

my father, he was so locked in this

intense competition, which of course

didn't matter. He's not like in the ping

pong world championships. It was in his

house.

And later, he started yelling at me from

like for saying that during his ping

pong match cuz it threw him off his game

or whatever whatever it was.

So,

moments like that really made me kind of

aware to the point of being scared about

what I was saying. And so,

it gave me, and as I said before, like

one of the stoic mindsets is everything

that happens to you happens for you. Why

did it happen for you? I look at that

story now and say,

"Okay, at that moment, I realized that I

have to be very mindful of everything I

say when I say it because there's

drastic consequences if I don't." What

does that make me do? It makes me a very

good listener. It makes me a very good

communicator.

It allows me to understand how my words

could be perceived.

What a What a gift. That's my

superpower. Thanks, Dad.

But it comes with a cost, all

superpowers, right?

Of course. And the cost was

and sometimes still is

less now. I have to be, you know, I have

to be honest and not claim a false

humility. But

sometimes still is. But the cost is

like,

you're not present. You're not really

present if you're thinking all the time

about every different way that what you

say could be perceived by somebody else.

And you're going through these

hypothetical scenarios in your brain

about the hypothetical conversations

about if they took that the wrong way,

how you would respond, and what you

would explain. It's mentally exhausting

and anxious, you know? And it's I lived

so much of my life playing out a million

different scenarios about every single

thing that I said and how that could be

interpreted. And as I said, like, I'm

mostly free of that. But every once in a

while for a text that matters, I'll look

at it, and I'll see like,

like nine different ways that that thing

could be interpreted the wrong way. And

then, I have to manual Like, with manual

override of my own consciousness, be

like, "It's all good. They know you.

They love you. They're not going to take

any of these different interpretations

and then abandon you or get mad at you

or anything like that.

This process you described starts

um according to all of the therapists

and

child trauma experts I've spoken to with

something called awareness.

And that kind of allows you to take on

the challenge, but there's a lot of

people that are living unaware of the um

puppet master in the back room.

Uh-huh. That's pulling the strings.

What has made you aware?

I mean

everybody has their own path.

And so I don't want to sound like my

path is my recommendation, my

prescription for everybody, but for me

it's been the psychedelic medicine path.

And psychedelic medicine doesn't have to

involve taking anything. I think

you mentioned that your partner is a

breathwork practitioner. Breathwork at

the highest level is as psychedelic as

anything. It's incredibly cathartic and

magical and visionary even. I mean

you're actually there's been some

studies showing that actually in that

deep breathing process you're producing

endogenous levels of DMT. DMT, which is

called the spirit molecule, which is

also the active psychedelic compound in

ayahuasca, it's happening when you

breathe.

So there's a lot of different psych-

like psychonautic technologies that can

get you there from sensory deprivation

tanks to sweat lodges to

lots of things, but

I have done

many

and not most of the plant medicines of

the world, most.

And really experienced a lot of the

great lineages

that have had that wisdom and then also

started to look to see how those

lineages

can evolve, how we can use this unique

time where we have access to many

different medicines and access to many

different ways of thinking and

psychological technologies like internal

family systems for example, which has

been paired with psychedelic medicine

therapy.

So using all of this and create a new

emergent lineage about how to hold these

medicines in a way that is accretive and

actually supportive to our life.

Because for me that's been the process.

Again, psychonautics, the ability to

look inside and see everything. As Rumi

said, you know, we're not a drop in the

ocean, we're the ocean in a drop. So if

you want to understand anything about

the cosmos, you can look out at the

cosmos, you can look inside into your

inner cosmos with a K.

And that's the way the Greeks spelled it

and and say like okay.

Like

what's what's really on the inside?

What's really on the inside? And the

medicines

have helped me do that.

Your first experience with plant

medicines was when you were 18 years

old, is that correct?

right.

You went on a um you call it like a

vision.

Is it like a vision mission? I can't

remember the word you used. Yeah. Um

after high school. Yeah, that was it. A

vision mission. Yeah, it was it's I mean

there's a it's a vision quest, but it

there's definitely

many traditional ways to do a vision

quest, which involve fasting for 4 days

with no food, no water and that's more

of the Lakota style of a vision quest or

the North American First Nations, you

know, kind of style. Um this was more of

a medicine vision quest, which is a

little bit different in that I'm still

going on a journey for a vision and

going to a place, but the medicine was

actually there instead of the fasting

and the stillness and the silence. And

it's not to say that the medicine is

better or worse.

It certainly worked out really well for

me, but that was the pivotal moment that

changed everything. I actually had a

vision of who I actually was. So that

first step of four in my mission was

illuminated where I started to

understand the

kind of limitlessness and the undying

source of who I actually really am.

I read that in your story, but then the

next sort of 10 years of your life

didn't seem to

manifest what I would have assumed a

plant medicine journey would have

manifested in the sense that you

described that from 20 onwards you were

still relatively sort of lost and

seeking approval and partying a lot and

drinking a lot.

So there's a

it was interesting because I had

connected to my soul that was all that

is, but

myself, the Aubrey, still wanted

approval, still wanted to be loved,

still wanted to make his mark, still

wanted to be big, you know, so

I was advancing rapidly in the internal

kind of dynamics of understanding who I

was,

but externally I was not meeting that

criteria and I couldn't see beyond a

reason, you know, I there was not a

point where I I thought, well maybe I

don't need this actually.

And actually even now, even after all

this work, it's like

I appreciate that I wanted to really go

for it. I was audacious and I wanted to

have a big company and I wanted to make

a big mark. I wanted to have resources

because resources are now opening up the

possibility for me to really tell

different stories, bring communities

together, do the things that I've that I

really want to do. So I wouldn't have

changed it, but

there was a focus on me, you know, from

in a kind of egoic identity construct

perspective, being

successful.

And that was like the guiding that was

like the guiding principle and I was

failing at it, really.

Like I was failing at it. I had a

marketing company and I kept getting

fired by my different clients and even

if I did a good job and I would start a

I would start things. I

It's funny actually. I smashed my uh for

those looking I smashed my finger and it

was all purple. So I painted it uh with

my wife's nail polish, which is gray. So

I have one painted nail, but it's a

funny example because that was one of my

failed businesses. I was going to start

a men's nail polish line because I saw

like Chuck Liddell and my friend Roger

Huerta they were painting their nails. I

was like, yeah, men can paint their

nails. And I started that, it bombed.

There was so many failures and I really

thought like

I'm just never going to succeed. I mean

I made a I made a decent living, you

know, I always I always found a client

or always found somebody that I that I

could get a paycheck from.

But it wasn't happening until it did.

Until it did. Till it did.

When you think about that moment and the

fact is that aligned

to make

it it happen until it did.

What were those factors that aligned or

what what what was it? Fate? Was it

luck? Was it something that changed

within you? Was it being more aligned

with your own sort of authentic self?

All of the above.

Looking back, I wasn't ready to hold the

bigness yet. I had to I had to, you

know, kind of like sometimes if you have

a young a young stallion and they're

bucking around and they're hot, you got

to run them a little bit. You got to run

the stallion. I had to I had to run a

little bit. And my partner at the time,

Caitlyn, we were running, you know, we

were partying a lot. We were out. I was

standing on the speakers and growling. I

was training MMA with the homies. I was

I was running, you know, I was running.

And I think I needed to do that and at

the same time I was also exploring,

exploring in that path of psychonautics,

building experience.

And

I had this feeling. I just had this

feeling when I watched Joe Rogan do

comedy and we're talking 2008. You know,

this is not the Joe Rogan of now, right?

[laughter]

Way different thing. He was the Fear

Factor guy, the UFC just, you know, the

UFC commentator, but the UFC wasn't what

it is now, not even close.

But I saw him and I was like

I'm that guy's friend. I know it. Like I

know we're friends. And I would and I

would meet him after a show or I'd run

into him in a club and I'd be like, hey

man,

but nothing would ever stick, of course,

because I was a fan and he was the guy

and like that it's very difficult to

bridge that gap in that kind of social

construct.

So he started a podcast.

Okay.

And and I was following when it was

like, oh wow. And that was old Joe Rogan

days back with Brian Redban.

And there was no podcast advertising

then. Again, podcast was in its infancy.

He had no podcast advertisers. So I had

one of my clients

and I was like, look, we should

advertise on Joe Rogan's podcast. We got

to do this. And for those of you who

know, it was the client was Fleshlight,

which is a whole other story.

But

I was like, Joe, we want to advertise on

your podcast.

And he's like, okay, cool. And it's

like, it's Fleshlight. And then his his

manager team was like, what the [ __ ] are

you doing, Joe? You can't you can't

advertise Fleshlight. He's like, damn

right I can. I don't want anybody to

take me so seriously that I can't, you

know, advertise for this thing. So Which

is a sex toy for anybody that doesn't

know.

Yeah, it's a sex toy for men.

But what I stipulated in that was like,

all right, yeah, we're we're totally

down. We'll be your we'll be your

podcast sponsor. I just want to meet you

for 30 minutes for coffee and then we'll

we'll close the deal.

And that was really honestly the play.

It was a it was a strategy. Now I was

tested. I was tested in that moment

because at that point I was friends with

Bode Miller, who is the best skier in

the world, arguably.

At that point he'd won multiple world

championships. He hadn't won the gold

medal yet, which he eventually won in

Vancouver,

but he was the best skier in the world

and he was going to the Kentucky Derby.

And Bode going to the Kentucky Derby is

a big deal. He gets to go with all of

the, you know, the big dogs and it's a

huge party and Bode was

at that point my best friend.

And the Kentucky Derby happened to be

exactly at the time where Joe Rogan

said, "I can meet you 30 minutes for

coffee." So, I had a choice. I could

either say, "Yeah, [ __ ] the coffee.

We'll just advertise."

And I'll go to the Derby. Which old me

would have been like, "Derby, Derby,

let's go. Let's party." You know, the

stallion that wanted to run. But there

was some knowledge inside me that no,

this coffee with Joe Rogan is important.

And I'm going to skip the whole Derby

party.

And I'm going to just meet this man for

coffee.

And I met him for coffee, and the coffee

turned into dinner, and then that dinner

turned into a friendship, and that

turned into him having me on his

podcast, and then a friendship

developed, and out of that friendship

developed really, I was starting a

supplement company, developed Onnit as

we know it now, Joe Rogan as my partner.

And then the combination of

again,

going back to my parents, my stepmother

had a deep knowledge of nutraceuticals

that actually could functionally impact

performance. She worked with basketball

teams. So, she had athletic performance

supplements, cognitive performance

supplements, and I was used to that

concept. So, with her help and with the

all of the scientific research, I could

put together a formula. I knew how to

market cuz I'd marketed things.

And then Joe Rogan was my partner. And

so, we had a way to get that out. We had

a way to let people know.

So, I raised $110,000.

I got $50,000 from a from a kind of

family friend that I'd worked with and

with different clients and done some

public relations work with.

And I had Bodhi, my friend, who So, one

gave 50,000, the other gave 60,000, and

that was the start of Onnit.

It was that money right there. And I

basically blew through and wasted all of

that. And then I went to Joe

and I said, "Hey, man, like what

supplement would you like the most?"

He's like, "Ah, man, I'd like a

all-natural nootropic that really

worked." A nootropic being a cognitive

enhancer. And I was like, "You know

what, Joe? I'm going to make the best

one that's ever been made." He's like,

"All right, man."

And I went to work and I did it. And I

formulated

with all of that help the supplement

that was Alpha Brain. And with Alpha

Brain, then sent it to Joe, and Joe was

like, "Man, this is amazing." It was

actually way too strong at that point.

It was like

it was like it was gnarly. But Joe's a

beast, you know. He's like He's a

savage. So,

at that moment, then

we kind of knew we had something. So, I

dialed down the formula, got it right.

And

when all of that came together and we

launched Alpha Brain, it just clicked.

We sold out of that product in 12 hours.

We had the next batch going. And the

only reason I had the money to even buy

the first batch was because there was

net 30 credit terms

on my purchase order. So, actually we

could receive the product and not have

to pay for 30 days. So, I didn't even

have the money to pay in 30 days unless

I sold it, right? But we sold it in 12

hours, and then there was another order

on the back of that. So, I was actually

sold through two orders before I even

had to pay the first purchase order. So,

we grew Onnit from literally nothing at

that point other than the resources that

we'd have, you know, applied to having a

website and having a shopping cart, etc.

And that was it. It was a rocket ship

from there. And also, you know, being on

Joe Rogan's podcast, people started to

be aware of my ideas and my philosophies

and these other things that I'd been

developing over all of these years in

between all of the partying that I was

doing and all of the other stuff.

And at that moment, I started to have a

stage and a and a platform and started

to build a kingdom.

When you say it grew like a rocket ship,

to close off that story, can you

quantify that in some way for people

that are listening? From that first

launch moment to where it ended up

getting acquired by Unilever, I believe.

Yeah. Yeah.

[laughter]

When you say rocket ship, what do you

mean?

So,

2010, Onnit was founded by me and with

the investment from those two

individuals that I mentioned, Bodhi and

Howard.

And uh we sold a little bit, but we had

a lot of inventory. We couldn't sell it,

and we were failing. It was another

failed business just like my men's nail

polish company. It was going down into

the dirt.

[laughter and gasps]

And then at that moment, with that Alpha

Brain product, we put that on sale, and

then from there, we could barely keep it

in stock. We were just selling through

as much as we could have. And then we

developed other supplements that went.

And we went from I mean, we were Inc.

500 fastest-growing company over the

next, you know, 4 years because we

actually went from, you know, zero to I

don't know what the first year was. I

don't have all the numbers, but imagine

like 12 million, 24 million, 34, you

know, 35 million, 45 million, you know,

and then we then we kind of leveled out

around 60 million in annual revenue for

a while, and then we had some real

trials and tribulations. And a lot of

deep tests at that point to get us to

the level where eventually in 2021,

uh we were able to sell the company to

Unilever and have a huge exit, which has

now given me, you know,

an amazing blessing of abundance of

resources. And

one of the coolest parts about that is

so many people in my life, you know,

talking about community again, so many

people in my life got little pieces of

the company, you know? Like my friend

Mehcad. Mehcad Brooks is now an actor on

Law & Order. He was He was an actor in

True Blood back then. I was like, "Yeah,

man, you can have 10,000 shares. Come

on, just talk about this." I was giving

out I was giving out equity like candy.

I was like, "I love you, man. Here's

some shares." And then all of the

sudden, all of those shares turned into

huge amounts of wealth,

you know, for so many people.

And and that was such a beautiful thing,

not only for me, not only for Joe, but

for everybody that that was everybody

that was around me that I was giving a

little piece of this equity to for Onnit

to build that energy.

Everybody Everybody won. It was like

being on this gigantic 100-person craps

table of everybody you love, and

everybody wins, and the casino just

empties out the bank, and we all go

home, and we're like, "Wow, we did it."

And in the meantime, we made great

products. We inspired people. We got

people to, you know, our our concept was

total human optimization. We got people

to actually get back in touch with this

idea that you can be a little bit better

tomorrow than you are today. And so,

every step of the way, it was something

beautiful. And then the payoff was

beautiful. It was It's just an absolute

dream, man.

And doesn't mean that I didn't live my

own little nightmares of fear and

anxiety and worry and stress and

mistakes all through the process.

But looking back now, holy [ __ ] What an

unbelievable

I mean, I couldn't have designed a

fantasy better.

There's going to be

people listening to this who are the

version of you at the start of that

roller coaster. Yeah.

What would you say to those people? Cuz

I mean, a lot of our listenership are

exactly that person. They have an idea

that they're pursuing a dream. They

maybe for the wrong or the right

reasons. I mean, who am I to say

to to define what either of those

um are. But what would you say to them

in order to prepare them for

that roller coaster?

You have to see it.

You have to see really see it.

Like see it with clear eyes, not with

the deluded eyes of hope, and not with

the shrouded eyes of fear, but really

see what's possible, I think.

People always ask me the question like,

"Can you believe what happened with

Onnit?" And I was like, "Of course I can

believe what happened with Onnit. If I

didn't believe that it could happen, it

wouldn't have happened."

You know, it's the funniest thing. "Can

you believe it?" I was like, "Yeah, I

can believe it. Of course I can believe

it. If I didn't believe it, it wouldn't

have happened." So, the first most

important step is you really have to see

it, and you have to see it

realistically. And to see it

realistically, you have to look at how

difficult it is out there, you know? I

mean, I I meet so many people like,

"Yeah, I'm going to start this clothing

brand." I'm like, and I've been, you

know, done a few things with different

clothes, and it's a hard business. It's

a hard It's a grind. That's difficult.

But you can do it. But you have to see

it, and you have to see the field

correctly. You have to see the

competition. You have to see how

challenging the market is, and actually

see how you're going to elevate above

that. And when you can really see it,

then you can make it happen. But it

depends on how accurate your sight is.

So, you have to see accurately, have the

discretion, and then once that's there,

you have to go all in. Like push all

your chips in. When you see it, push all

your chips in, focus,

and turn all of that energy into a

single point, and push forward

uh with everything you got.

Okay, so see it. I I a few thoughts

spring to mind when you said it talked

about seeing it. So, the first one is

what role does seeing it play cuz you

talked about the adversity. You kind of

like glossed over the adversity of that

journey. And I think part of the reason

I started this podcast in the first

place was because I think the adversity

matters just as much as the eventual

achievement. And obviously, because of

the way that the media works and the way

we tell our stories, we focus a bit more

on the achievement. But what role does

seeing it play in being able to grace

those hurdles as and when they

inevitably come?

[sighs]

Well, the first one is to see it

actually being successful. Right? And I

saw I could see that vision and even

that even as it was happening, it was

still

you know, there was still some part of

me that was like, "Wow, it's really

actually coming true." Cuz I'd seen it

before. I saw the nail polish company

successful, too. I just didn't see it

accurately. I didn't see the market. I

didn't see the idea that this was going

to be a very difficult thing to actually

convince people was cool and that people

would be like, "Why buy your nail polish

when I can just get any nail polish?"

There were I didn't really see it right.

And with Onnit, I saw it right, you

know, and I had the right people and and

with the right team.

So, so seeing it into success is

important. And then

what you're going to encounter is a lot

of things that you didn't see. And

that's where the adversity comes. I

didn't see that coming. I didn't see

that coming.

We had a security breach at Onnit. You

know, it was one of the early days,

2013, 2014, when that was happening to a

lot of different companies. I think I

remember Target had a big one and it was

found out and then Target was like, "Oh

yeah, yeah, this happened and you know,

sorry about that." You know, people got

access to credit cards. That happened to

us.

And there was a choice point and it was

felt like everything was going to be

ruined because we got hacked. Somebody

got access to our customer data.

We didn't have the right firewalls and

all the right cybersecurity.

I mean, I thought we did, but we didn't,

obviously. And

there was a choice point, you know,

nobody nobody else externally discovered

it. We discovered it internally. We

fixed it. And we could have just kind of

crossed our fingers and hoped that

nothing happened.

But I made a different choice and in

that choice, I just said I got to tell

everybody. So, I just sent out an email.

I was like, "Look, y'all, I'm so sorry.

Like, this is on us. We didn't have the

right security. We got hacked and your

information was compromised and we're so

sorry. And here's

you know, a discount code for any Onnit

products that you want and

like our deepest apologies for any

inconvenience this may have caused if

you have to cancel your card or

whatever, I understand and

and I just came out really authentically

and honestly.

And that ended up being one of like

these

powerful moments where instead of the

whole customer base

turning against our company being like,

"These losers can't even secure our

credit cards or whatever."

They actually trusted and

trusted our company and trusted me more

because of just how authentically I

shared about that story.

So, that's one version of a of adversity

that comes from those things that those

monsters that come from the grass that

were slithering around or hiding in the

in the tall grass that you don't see and

then all of a sudden you have to

confront them.

And it's going to be about how you deal

with those things that you didn't see.

And are you guided by that again, that

superstructure that I talked about,

those principles of if you or me living

a different life, what would I want me

to receive? I would want honesty.

Just somebody to be honest and be like,

"Yeah, we [ __ ] up and we're sorry

and and this is the best we can do."

You know, and and that was that was kind

of the guiding principle is

I was bound by this value structure.

And the value structure was the kind of

the guiding light through all of it. And

it it worked.

[snorts]

When you said about seeing it, one of

the things that came to mind as well was

when you can see the competitive

landscape, often that's incredibly

intimidating. There's you know,

entrepreneurs often talk about how being

a little bit delusional and naive is

actually a driving force and were they

to know how difficult it actually was,

like where entrepreneurs

to to have seen your hardest, darkest

days, they might not have bothered. So,

my my second question here is about

seeing it is

what would you say to an entrepreneur

that's starting a business maybe in the

same, you know, in the same field as

Onnit was, that's looking out and

thinking, "Oh my god, but there's

already loads of competitors and Aubrey

did this and Joe did that. Like, I've

got this idea, but there's so many

competitors, I just won't bother." Cuz

I'm sure when you started, there was a

big competitive landscape, right?

[sighs]

It gets more and more difficult,

you know, all the time. And

it's about can you get the right pieces

of the puzzle together, the right

product, the right energy behind it, the

right ethos, the right experience,

something that's actually better than

the field. I mean, when you're talking

about this landscape, you're talking

about one of the beauties of this

capitalist model is you're open to

radical competition.

And that's what drives the evolution.

So, you have to know that you're a

little bit better.

You're a little bit better than

everybody else. And if you're able to

show that in all of the ways that you're

a little bit better, you'll be able to

make it through. And yes, you're still

going to receive immense challenges. You

know, there's going to be times that

security breach was just one of many. We

had another moment where we made a huge

mistake. We thought we were getting an

investment. We distributed all of our

cash. We had zero money in the bank. The

investment didn't happen. And then so we

had all of these accounts payable, no

money in the bank.

And it we called it cashpocalypse at

that point. Our CFO just looked at us,

said, "We're we're bankrupt in 30 days.

I'm leaving." What? Walked out of the

room. Walked out of the room. I was

like, "All right." And then our COO, who

ended up becoming the CEO when I stepped

down in 2020, right before like a year

before the sale,

uh he guided us through and we made it

and it we we made it because of the

relationships that we'd

you know, held with honesty and with

with good faith with everybody. We

weren't We weren't playing games with

anybody, so they trusted us. We were

like, "Hey, we're in a really tight

spot, but if you if you trust us and you

allow us to pay late, you extend our

terms from net 30 net to net 60 to net

90, maybe net 120, you know, like we're

going to pay you in 4 months for the

products that you're delivering."

And they believed in us. They backed us

and and that was what I that got us

through

that moment. So, That CFO that walked

out. Yeah.

He made a big mistake in hindsight.

He made a big mistake. He had also he

had, you know, he had an equity

position. He had options that he that

he, you know,

forfeited. Whoops.

[laughter]

Whoops.

You know, that

[laughter]

our current CEO our current CEO, I mean,

not current CEO, the CEO that emerged,

Jason Havey, he he he couldn't he's such

a sweet such a sweet guy, but he

couldn't help but send uh on the

anniversary of that day where where the

CFO walked out

and and just told us straight up that

we're we were going to be out of

business, for the next couple years on

that anniversary, he'd be like, "Hey,

how's how's it going? We're still here."

[laughter]

Just sent him a text.

[gasps]

Oh, wow.

Wow. I mean, some people that's that's

natural selection of life. There's some

people in the hardest times, they bail,

right? And they're

therefore they aren't

deserving of those kind of good good

moments. Exactly. Per se.

You left in 2020. Mhm.

I don't see a huge desire from you from

looking at what you're doing now to get

in get back in bed in that same kind of

industry

doing the same kind of thing. Mhm. Is

that accurate and if so, why?

[sighs]

[gasps]

The my desire to be a CEO

is not really there. My desire to be

this kind of visionary founder is there.

So, you imagine someone like Richard

Branson and it's certain he's really not

actually running any of the companies

that he's running.

running owning.

He's just kind of guiding them and

I am very interested in continuing to

guide different projects and different

brands.

But I want really competent operators to

really start to navigate. Now, I may end

up actually working with the CEO that

Jason Havey, who was with Onnit for 10

years. He transitioned out. So, he's now

no longer there and so we may team back

up, get the Avengers back together and

put, you know, a few other brands back

on the table. And the reason for that is

because they're great products again

that are doing really important things.

Like, I want to do important things and

the resources that that will allow us

to, you know, kind of accumulate can

then be applied to really great projects

that can benefit again, para el bien de

todos, for the good of all. So, yeah, I

mean, I'm still I'm still in the game,

but I'm just doing it at a different

level. I'm not going to be the guy who's

pouring over the P&Ls, who's chasing

down purchase orders, but I am the guy

who can go out and meet the key allies,

put the pieces of the puzzle together,

share the voice and the kind of idea of

why these products are important and and

so that's going to be there's going to

be another kind of reload and birth of a

new kind of wave of things

um that'll come out and and

there's also but there's so many other

things. Now, I'm going in many different

directions. Of course, there's the

podcast, there's the book that I'm

working on and other books that are

planned after that. There's media and

documentaries that I'm making and

there's stories I want to tell and

there's a lot of different things that

I'm doing, but I'm just at a the

and a and a purview where I have a lot

of competent operators that are helping

execute on all of these different

visions.

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I love the salted caramel flavor. But

recently, I think I

in part blame Jack in my team, who's

obsessed with the chocolate-flavored

Huel's. I've started drinking the

chocolate-flavored Huel's for the first

time, and I absolutely love them. My

life means that I sometimes disregard my

diet. And it's funny, part of the reason

why I've had a lot of guests on this

podcast recently that talk about diet

and health and and those kinds of things

because I am trying to make an active

effort to be more healthy, to lose a

little bit of weight as well, but to be

more healthy. And the role that Huel

plays in my life is it means that in

those moments where sometimes

I might reach for,

you know,

junk foods,

having an option that is nutritionally

complete, that is high in fiber, that is

incredibly high in protein, that has all

the vitamins and minerals that my body

needs, within arm's reach, that I can

consume on the go, is where Huel has

been a game-changer for me. Love. Let's

talk about love, then. I often wonder,

you know,

we we learn our models of love and

relationships very early, and I've

talked a lot about um how I learned my

model of love, the good and the bad, the

ugly of it, and how I was very much an

avoidant in terms of my attachment

style. I would run from everyone that

should had any interest in me. I'd

pursue someone, and then when they

showed interest in me, I'd run. And I

was like mimicking some like deep model

that I'd learned that relationships mean

you're in prison. Mhm. Basically, the

like the narrative I'd learned because

my father, Yeah. I I was I think

subconsciously convinced he was in

prison

in his relationship. So,

um it took me a lot of awareness and

unpacking to like realize that to the

point where as as I sit here today, I'm

in a great relationship. Obviously, it

has all of the same, you know,

natural imperfections as any

relationship, but one that I think is

the most special thing I've ever

experienced in my life. What's your

journey been like with love? You have a

unique point to your story, which you

know I'm going to talk about.

Yeah. Cuz I I know a lot of people ask

you about it, which is

I don't even know what the correct term

is. Polyamory. Polyamory. I always say

polygamy. I don't know why I say that.

Well, that would be multiple wives.

Okay. Polyamory is multiple loves.

So yeah, my journey with love was was

interesting because, you know, again, I

had my first major partnership was with

who someone who's now my best friend and

also the best man, quote, of my of my

wedding with my wife is was my former

fiance, Caitlin.

And we had a relationship where

she it was not it was not polyamory,

but however,

we could bring other female lovers into

into our equation, right? Into our

Female lovers? Right. So, other girls

could we could have

sexual experiences

with other women.

And so that gave me kind of this release

valve to my desires because

I simply again, I was bound by these

kind of feelings of value and this

feeling of

anybody who I'm with is me living a

different life. So, I can't cheat. You

know, there there were there was one

moment where I did I did actually cheat

one time in my life, and it was so

miserable the feeling that I felt when I

cheated on my partner. Like that one

time I was like, I just cannot do this.

And I see and again, no judgement, you

know, but I see so many successful and

powerful men who are unfaithful to their

partners. And to me, that's like going

and skirting around the problem and just

creating a whole bunch more problems.

And it's also it's it's actually

legitimately unethical. Right? Like

you're manipulating somebody. You're

lying to them. You're not telling the

truth. And so after that one experience

of feeling how just awful I felt when I

actually cheated on it. It was story I

was in Moscow, blah blah blah. It

doesn't [ __ ] matter. Like

fundamentally,

I was like, this I will not do this.

Like this cannot be the way.

And so, in that relationship, the

ability for us to have other lovers that

were female,

then

it kind of satisfied that desire. Al-

although, the problem was is that I was

still always kind of searching for that,

and it was

it wasn't quite right at that point for

me, at that stage of my young stallion

life, right? Wasn't quite right, but it

was beautiful. We had a beautiful

relationship. Love Caitlin. Love that

relationship so much.

But ultimately,

I was you know, that wasn't working out.

She didn't feel like she was going to be

the queen that was going to help me

build my empire. You know, she's a wild

and magical woman, but she wasn't kind

of that warrior queen focused energy

that I was really looking for. And then

Whitney came along, who was my next most

significant partner.

And I saw that in her. I was like, I

think this is the one that can be with

me, be by my side build on it to what

it's going to become

step forward in the world. She's got the

she's got the right stuff for that. So

we started a relationship just purely

monogamous. No other partners, nothing

else.

That lasted about 18 months, and I still

felt this strong desire to be with other

women, to experience the goddess

in many different faces. And I've never

been any been the type that just wants

to have sex with somebody because that

makes me feel good about myself. No, I I

legitimately love women. Like I I love

them. I'm like, it's the greatest

delight for me to be with a woman. You

know, and so, I had that natural desire.

I wasn't willing to be

unfaithful and cheat.

So I went to Whitney and I said, "Hey,

I have this idea.

What about I still want to be with you,

but

I think I need to be polyamorous. And I

know that for this to be fair,

that means that you get to see anybody

you want to.

So if I get to do it, you get to do it.

Unlike, you know, in the former

relationship with Caitlin, I would have

been so jealous. I'd be like, no man

ever, never under any circumstances. I'm

the lion, you know, like I had these old

old other kind of constructs and ideas.

Thanks to, you know, it was really the

book Sex at Dawn by by Chris Ryan that

actually opened my mind to this idea

that there is a different concept that

different tribes have utilized

throughout throughout history where we

didn't have this

possessive kind of jealous

idea what it means to have a partner,

that we were open to having,

you know, having your partner have

multiple loves. And I understood

philosophically that

our love is like the sun. Like it's

shining on all of these different

places. And to have somebody be like,

your sunlight your your erotic sunlight

can only on me. I was like, this is

absurd. Doesn't make any sense to me.

So, philosophically, it didn't make

sense. And I had my own desires, so I

said, "All right, let's be polyamorous."

And I thought

that I would be okay with Whitney seeing

other people.

I thought I was going to I I thought I

was going to breeze through because I

had a girlfriend first. So, Whitney,

after a period of 3 months, she first

she was like,

you know, you're out of your mind. Go

[ __ ] yourself. I'm out. I was like, that

that sucks, but I understand your

decision. I'm not going to change my

decision. It's it's the way forward.

A few months later, she came back. All

right. Let's try this.

And I was already involved with somebody

else, so I had a girlfriend. And then

Whitney was still my primary partner. So

that was the constellation. Primary

partner is Whitney. She lived with me.

And then girlfriend, who I would go meet

at a different meet at her house or meet

at a different place, and then have my

own experiences with that partner.

And then when Whitney,

you know, and I really didn't have the

understanding of how hard this would be

on the other side. I thought like, yeah,

it'll be easy.

I understood it. Then Whitney

got her first partner.

And I cannot describe to you the feeling

that I felt when Whitney had her first

lover. It was it broke me. It absolutely

broke me. Even though I had agreed even

though I had acted on it on my end, when

she was with somebody else, I felt like

I was going to vomit, cry. I wanted to

punch a wall. I wanted to just I

couldn't I couldn't even handle it. And

I also felt so ashamed

for the fact that I had no like very

little compassion for her having gone

through this because I hadn't gone

through it yet.

And it was a really challenging kind of

moment.

And of course, what did I do? You know,

whoever her partner was, I tried to like

be better than them at whatever they

were good at. And at one point, you

know, Whitney was with a professional

fighter and I was like, "I'll be a good

fighter." And I was like, "How stupid?"

Like, she doesn't love me because I'm a

fighter. She loves me because I'm me.

And that was one of the really powerful

lessons that polyamory taught me is you

can't try to compete in somebody else's

strength. You just have to compete to be

the best version of you. And every time

I would try to be like somebody else, I

would become less attractive in her

eyes. And and that's that was really a

deep lesson. But for eight years, we did

the polyamory thing. You know, we had

our moments where we were off and on and

we'd have little breakups and little

issues that would come up.

But we both were free to see who we

wanted to see and be with whoever we

wanted to be with with the understanding

that we were primary partners.

This had so many challenges and moments

where every different boundary that we

thought we had, well, all right, you can

be with them, but you can't be in love

with them. Whoops, I fell in love with

somebody. And then whoops, Whitney fell

in love with somebody. And so that

didn't work. So we're like, okay, I

guess we're able to really be in love

with somebody. But then if you're in

love with somebody, then you want to

spend, you know, and that energy is so

strong. The technical term is limerence.

It's that new relationship energy where

you're just intoxicated with somebody.

Well, you want to be with them more and

then the primary partnership doesn't

make any sense cuz you the person can

feel that you'd rather be with somebody

else and it was just

it was very, very challenging and also

very, very beautiful. You know, the the

paramours that I had and a paramour is

the term for the the other partners you

have outside of your primary partner.

I had unbelievably beautiful

relationships with them and magical,

amazing moments and magical moments with

Whitney. You know, there was so much

energy and passion and drama in that in

that period.

But it was honest. You know, the thing

about it was is that it was honest. We

told each other everything, you know,

everything that happened, we told each

other the truth. There was little

pockets of withholding where we didn't

express exactly how we felt and but

every little minute dishonesty would get

exacerbated into a massive, massive

issue because there was so much pressure

in the system because of the natural

emotions of jealousy and and you know,

worrying about whether our my partner

really loved me the most.

And and that was

a really beautiful and and deeply

challenging experience. And finally, you

know, at the end I I kind of

I kind of was like,

"I can do this, but I I didn't master

it. It was always it was it always got

the best of me. I was never really fully

ever okay

with her seeing other people. I was okay

with me seeing other people and loving

her, but I could never quite do it. I

wasn't up to the task. And that doesn't

mean that somebody else can't be. I just

I gave it my best and with all of my

tools, all of my consciousness, all of

my love,

I couldn't do it. And so with that

knowledge, then, you know,

I met of course I met Vilona and Vilona

like, you know, immediately I I'd been

in love with her for a little while and

and we could tell that story if we like,

but I'd been through the polyamory

journey. So when I met Vilona, I was

like, "I'm not doing that again." You

know, I'm not doing that again. Do you

know anybody that's made that work?

[sighs]

For a time. And and the thing is is I

think it's a it's a journey of growth

and it's a journey of transformation and

evolution.

Um when things are stagnant or stuck, it

may be an opportunity to get things

moving.

I think I would rather have the the ups

and downs, the brisk wind, the floating

into the into the twilight sunsets of

just glorious, beautiful expanses and

then the car crashes into the rocky

crags where it's all blood and broken

glass everywhere, you know,

metaphorically, of course.

I kind of my poet's heart kind of likes

that more than just kind of steady,

bored diminishment of life force.

There's no energy, there's no charge

there.

That never that doesn't really appeal to

me. So polyamory is one of the ways that

you can really drive a lot of energy and

a lot of growth and a lot of

introspection and a lot of a lot of

evolution of your own character uh

through that process. So

has anybody made it work long-term?

It's rare. And I don't think I have a

good model for it because I think part

of the problem is is that the the

culture doesn't really support that yet

and I don't think our consciousness has

evolved to a level where we can handle

it. We don't have models for it. We have

models of jealousy. It's in all of our

songs. It's in all of our it's it's

everywhere. It's like we're flying again

we're going upstream against the

cultural zeitgeist. So if culture

changes, if society changes, I think

that will become more possible. It's of

course some people are doing it and

they're making it work.

I haven't seen it personally really work

on like a long-term level, but I think

it's just because the culture hasn't

blossomed for that to really be

possible. I often wondered if there's

some kind of like evolutionary,

Darwinistic

reason why it doesn't work. And it would

make sense from a Darwinistic

perspective that I want my seed to pass

on and I want I want my genes to

survive. So if I if there's another man

with my partner, for example, then

that's going to

evolve me out of the gene pool. So

there's got to be some kind of, you

know, one would assume there's some kind

of inbuilt, innate mechanism called

jealousy

to prevent that happening.

Yeah, and there's also the genetic

impulse to actually, I mean again, we're

we're having sex, but the impulse is to

impulse is to reproduce, right? Like

that's where [clears throat] it's coming

from. So yes, there's somebody actually

sleeping with your partner, but you're

sleeping with many other people, too. So

you're still genetically, you know,

giving the opportunity to actually

fertilize, you know, many different

people. So there's a there is genetic

support, I think, from like an

evolutionary biology perspective to this

concept, right?

But really to make it work, we got to go

back to that level two that we talked

about earlier, which is community, which

is tribe. Cuz if it's for the good of

the tribe, then it doesn't matter if

it's your genetic, you know, your

genetic DNA. It's like, will this be the

best will this be the best situation for

the tribe? And if the tribe is in love,

the tribe is thriving, the tribe has

energy, the tribe has that life force,

then then that's accretive to the

overall mission. But without that kind

of tribe level understanding,

and perhaps even that humankind level

understanding,

you can't actually I don't think you can

make it work.

I was reflecting as you were saying that

about the tribe on various cult

documentaries I've watched

[laughter]

where there's still jealousy, you know,

um even though they're they're a unit,

they're one big family.

You still see that jealousy throughout.

Yeah.

I [clears throat] think that jealousy is

less like about a evolutionary biology

and more about the ego. The ego knows

itself in relative position. It's a

construct that we create to help

navigate our life and our and our body

and our soul. And so it's this idea,

it's a story about who we are. And that

story about who we are, we only know how

good we are compared to somebody else.

It's like, are you a good ping pong

player? Well,

that depends. Who am I playing? You

know, like if I'm out with my mates,

yeah, I'm a [ __ ] good ping pong

player. If I'm going to a tournament,

I'm the worst. So you know yourself in

relative position to to the context. And

that's the problem. In this kind of

polyamorous dynamic, there's always this

thing of this person's getting loved

more or there's more attention here or

you're comparing all of these different

aspects and attributes. And so until you

can actually observe that ego identity

construct from a from a witness

perspective,

then

you really can't escape the trappings of

comparing yourself and comparing your

situation to somebody else's situation.

Vilona. Oh, yeah. Vilona? Vilona.

Your face lights up when you say her

name. Yeah.

Why is that? What does she mean to you?

I didn't know that I could love somebody

like this.

I didn't I didn't think it was really

possible. I thought it would

I thought it would be like a

I thought there'd always be kind of

like, yeah, this is good enough. This

will work.

You know, like, we'll make this work.

And we'll we'll find a situation that'll

make it work, but

with Vilona, it's like,

no, no, like

I love you so much.

I wouldn't change a thing about you.

Like

and it's this it's this crazy thing that

sounds like it sounds unbeli it it

doesn't sound like it's believable. It

doesn't even sound credible. And I don't

even know if it's reproducible. I can't

say that everybody out there, you got

your Vilona. I wish I could go with a

straight face and say like, "There's

your Vilona out there." And for Vilonas

out there, there's your Aubrey out

there. And I know it. I don't know. I

think maybe I'm really lucky. I don't

know.

But, it's like we met, you know, and I

could feel it, and I could feel it, and

she couldn't see it for a long time, but

I could always see it. I didn't know,

but I could see this possibility. And

when we got together, I mean, I had

bought the I bought the wedding ring

before we actually even had sex.

You know, I mean, if you follow the

story closely, there was a there was a

kind of experience at Burning Man, etc.

And

but really but really though

like I just I just knew. I could feel

it, and I knew it, and I knew she was I

knew she was

my queen. I I just knew it, and she is

in every way. She's the perfect

complement to me.

And it's not that, you know, the Jerry

Maguire's you complete me. No, we're two

complete beings of different skills,

attributes, polarities, energies,

emotionalities, sexualities, but we

merge together, and together we're just

so much more, and life is so much more

beautiful.

Uh

it's a it's a dream, man. It's a dream,

and it's there's no there's no

compromise.

There's no compromise at all.

And and that's what all the you know,

you you go to a wedding and you all the

old-timers will be like, you got you got

to learn compromise, and you're going to

have to pick your battles, and blah blah

blah. It's like, no. No, what about no?

What about no? What about just it's

[ __ ] incredible. And you're in it

together. And I think one of the reasons

why we're able to be that

is cuz we're willing to go into the deep

together. If there's something that's

that's that we can't resolve, then we

have tools. And again, the plant

medicine journey, like, we'll go deep.

We'll go, you know, multiple times we

drank ayahuasca together, and big things

that were brewing come to the surface

and erupt you know, like a giant

volcano, and then we have to sort out

all the magma and all the pieces that'll

come up, but we'll keep going back in,

going into the deep, not looking away

from everything. And with that attitude,

we're just cleaning cleaning the

cleaning the connection and the intimacy

between us all the time.

When you look back in hindsight, cuz I'm

thinking for myself, but I'm also