Brian Johnson, thanks for being here.

>> Yeah, it's good to see you.

>> How are you feeling? Maybe just share

with us what you did a few days ago. And

>> yeah, I did um a I did five MOD DMT,

which is the most powerful psychedelic

on the planet. Uh it's somewhere between

five and 10 times more powerful than

DMT. And so, yeah, I it's so it's been

48 hours. I'm still learning how to talk

about it.

>> You know what? Many of the biggest tech

CEOs and VCs have in common. They sleep

on the Pod by eight sleep. It's become

tech's favorite way to sleep, and for

good reason. A cover that goes on any

mattress, cools it down to 55°, and uses

AI to adjust your temperature all night.

Up to 34% more deep sleep. No wearable

needed. Go to eight.com/allin

and use code all-in for up to $350 off

your pod purchase today.

>> Before we get into your experience, why

did you choose to do it?

>> Two things. is one mostly as a longevity

experiment. So when when we when I

started this project 5 years ago, the

the approach we had was go through all

the scientific evidence ever published

on health and longevity. Try to find the

interventions that have the best

evidence for effect size and we just

went down the list from top performing

on down. So, of course, you start with

uh exercise, nutrition, uh you know, um

sleep, and you work your way down to

things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy

and sauna, and then rapamy, metformin.

And so, we never actually had on our

radar psychedelics. They were always

either an ancient medicine, you know,

being used in in ritualistic practices

or being pointed at things like

depression and anxiety in in certain

trials, but it was never understood as a

rejuvenation protocol, something that

was for anti-aging. And so we found a

pre-clinical evidence in mice on

psilocybin. We thought that's

interesting. Uh and so we did the

world's most studied the most uh

quantified experiment doing psilocybin

three doses at 25 milligrams uh of

psilocybin

>> which are pretty high doses.

>> It's yeah it's a clinical uh dose at

very very close to a hero dose and we

found that we think it's a a longevity

therapy.

>> Let's get to that data in a minute. But

then you decided to try 5me this

weekend.

>> Yes. Walk me through the experience

because you televised the whole thing.

It was live streamed. You looked

amazingly calm going into it and going

through the process. Walk us through

your experience.

>> Yeah, I think uh those who have done 5me

would probably relate with me that it

feels like an impossible task to explain

what it's like. So that caveat said,

I'll I'll give it a go. I'm stunned.

absolutely floored, speechless. You you

basically

experience raw consciousness and raw

intelligence. It's this. So whatever

when I say these words, take these words

that I committed to you, take that idea,

multiply it by a thousand, and then move

out infinite depth, infinite width,

width and then dimensions. And like that

gives you kind of like a rough map of

like the size and

space that you deal with. And uh it was

incredibly hard because you you get

blasted into this space that is so

foreign you don't even know what's

happening.

>> It happens very quickly

>> like you you inhale it. I did uh 9

milligrams of intramuscular and then

seven uh 18 of of vaporized and it hits

you within 10 seconds. You're just ab

you're out. And so um but what happens

is you you get in that space and then

>> visual changes every

>> very very little visual uh like you see

on DMT it's a very visual you'll meet

the you know like the elves or whatever

else this is not a visual experience but

you you get in this world and

you lock in to basically you either

panic because you feel like the gates of

hell are going to open that the the

stream of Yeah.

>> Existence is just going to just tear you

to shreds. It's going to shard you. And

if you give up,

>> like break your brain.

>> Yeah. You feel like it's going to like

threaten your sanity. Like is it going

to chop you up into little pieces? And

so in that moment, you have to say, do I

try to wrestle this and I I need to just

like wait it out until it's over or you

just relent and you say yes. And you

have to in that moment, you have to say

yes so thoroughly. You have to release

all attachment, all preconditions, all

want, all desire. You have to release

self, ego, control. You just have to

just relent entirely. And then when you

do that, it opened up this unimaginable

bliss and euphoria. And I I again this

like a V1 of trying to explain this, but

if I list out the the most

dynamic experiences I've had of a human,

you know, uh like certain

accomplishments or getting married or

having a child or overcoming a

difficulty or you know, state your list

of things. This is without question the

most dynamic experience I've ever

experienced as a human. Does the

internal chatter, the internal monologue

of the ego turn off?

>> Does.

>> So you can't hear yourself speaking, how

do you rationalize what's going on if

you don't have a dialogue going on?

>> It's this visceral feeling like you're

you're hyper aware of what's happening.

It's not like you you block out in the

first like when you take a very high

dose, you don't really know what's

happening the first few minutes, but

then you kind of come to and you're

hyper aware of everything. It's not

visual, but it's this um

you're in the depths of [snorts]

existence like this.

>> It's just the most majestic

>> experience

achievable by a by by intelligent life.

I just can't imagine anything more

miraculous.

You've studied the biology, the

biochemistry. What goes on in the brain

as this molecule hits your neurons?

>> Yeah. I mean like it um I mean one it

completely dissolves your default mode

network.

>> Describe what that is.

>> So like um it's this is the engine that

constructs self and ego. And so as you

ruminate, you know, like you're going

through

>> thinking through your day, what's next?

How am I feeling? Yeah.

>> What should I be doing right now?

Constant conversation.

>> Do I feel bad about myself? Do I feel,

you know, like I am I shy? Am I like do

I feel bad about whatever? Like you're

doing this rumination stuff. Uh kids

don't have this rumination loop. Their

default mode network is is quiet. And as

you age, you basically build up this

default mode network into more stiffer

patterns. And so as you age, your

experience of reality becomes

increasingly narrow. You have these big

ruts that form. And so you can just see

people in their patterns like how open a

child is to say like very random things.

And as adults, you're just very, you

shut in. Like when I did psilocybin,

one of the reasons why we did it is

because it does have this effect where

it dampens the default mode network. And

we could pick this up with kernel the

brain interface. You can see how the

default mode network weakens. Like so

basically like think of the brain like a

globe with airports scattered about

>> and you have certain traffic patterns

like New York to London. You have a

certain number of flights every day.

That's like a very strong connection.

But New York to um you know some small

town in Arkansas has a very uh low

traffic map. And so when you do

something like psilocybin it basically

takes the airports picks them up and

then repositions around the world. So

it's just all scrambled so that the

traffic patterns aren't the same and

then over time

>> the neurons don't physically move but

the activity shifts around.

>> Exactly.

>> Right. the neurons are a little bit more

random

>> than they normally would be which

arguably drives neuroplasticity causes

those neurons to reach out for new

connections and when new connections are

made new behaviors new ways of thinking

emerge coming out of these therapeutics.

Is that a fair way to describe it?

>> Exactly right. So you look at my brain

on psilocybin from kernel you see my

patterns before like the New York London

connection you see my brain afterwards

and it's exactly what you said new

patterns are emergent the old ones have

have quieted down. It's like a new map

of connectivity. And so we saw that

happen and that does generate a lot of

neuroplasticity.

>> And obviously this neuroplasticity

rewiring these connections in the brain

is what allows trauma victims or folks

that have a certain wiring that they

keep repeating in their brain which

causes the trauma and the anxiety in

their lives to get rewired and then that

trauma and that anxiety feels like it

dissolves or melts away. Is that a fair?

>> Exactly right.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And so this is this has been

documented in psilocybin. It's kind of

well understood. How did you connect

that psilocybin data to an effort in

longevity or was this just like a random

idea? Let's try it out.

>> Yeah, it was. So we we we saw some mouse

data that it had these effects. It also

showed reduced inflammation. Uh so we

said like this is interesting because

most longevity therapies do something

with inflammation, right? Like

inflammation is the killer. So if you

can lower inflammation, a very good

sign. uh if you can do something that

makes the brain more youthful and takes

down those those big ruts that's use

also useful. What we found at psilocybin

though is it had we found a first in

human observation it had this this uh

metabolic reset in the brain where my

blood glucose before this was in the top

99.5 percentile of all the population.

>> Okay. after it went to the top 99.9

percentile like to move my blood glucose

from that level is very very hard and

but it basically like uh not like

metformin where you're doing something

on blood glucose this just had a reset

across the body also changed my

microbiome uh so we saw a full-on effect

so then we said okay if that had that

consequence 5 MO may have some similar

characteristics and so

>> no one had done this in 5 MO before

>> exactly so there's like there's potent

there's there's some animal evidence um

but it's the the similar dynamics of

like can you take the brain and can you

basically like smooth out the barnacles

that accumulate and 5 MODMT compared to

psilocybin like just absolutely like

blasted clean my default mode network.

It felt like psilocybin dampens it like

it softens it but this thing just

annihilated my default

>> turned it off completely. Yeah, it just

it just doesn't run the same way. And

like for an example like uh this morning

I woke up uh catching myself laughing in

a dream. I have not laughed in a dream.

I I don't even know when I've ever

laughed in a dream but that is after I

woke up I was like that's really weird.

Like I don't remember laughing. I looked

it up and like that is a characteristic

of a child.

>> Right.

>> And so you are restored to this

childlike state. And I mean the past

couple days uh I have felt childlike.

You know, yesterday morning I felt that,

you know, that emergent excitement, the

bubbling of like today is so exciting.

I'm going to do new things. I'm going to

have new experiences. Um that you're

just excited about all things. I haven't

felt that. I don't even know when, you

know, for so many years. So like it

really was um profound on every layer.

And I see I'm stumbling through this cuz

I don't even know how to talk about it

yet.

>> During the day, you're hanging out,

you're walking around. Is your brain

having the same normal chatter that it

did before or do you think that there's

a persistent change in that default mode

network?

>> Yeah, definitely a change. Like with I I

was with my partner Kate yesterday and

we um I did something that

made her upset. And so like in that

situation, you know, like when when

couples are in that moment, you you have

like this negotiation. How do I sort

this? And it all just became so clear to

me like when children have a fight, you

have it out and it's just like done.

>> Yeah.

>> And you move on. But then adults take

that and they like package it up and

like they want to weaponize it. Be like

I got something on you,

>> right? I'm like move it. I'm going to

move the chest pieces and like try to

leverage this and and um

>> or they store it up like a snake in one

of those things that pops out all the

snakes later, you [laughter] know? It's

like package it all up.

>> Exactly. And so like we had this and I I

just felt um absolutely like no need to

escalate or to defend or to like it was

just easy

>> and um it was a breakthrough in our

relationship where I was able to

communicate with her in a way. And so

it's like h laughing in my sleep. It's

how I deal with my partner when I walk

around. I just feel so much I uh I feel

so much more funny, you know, like my

ability to make quips

>> that are just immediate. Uh you know,

like so yeah, I just feel renewed as a

person in a way that I just really

didn't imagine.

>> Have you tried hallucinogenics before

you started your longevity path a couple

of years ago?

>> Yeah.

>> And did you do that recreationally or

therapeutically? It was mostly

therapeutic in that I I had sold my

company branch of mo. I got a divorce. I

left the Mormon church and I was trying

to remap like what is life? Who am I?

What do I do? So I was in that

rebuilding stage where I just dabbled of

like you know I did I did ketamine at

Colonel. So one of our first studies at

Colonel is we said ketamine was a up and

cominging therapy for depression and we

posed the question what happens when you

do ketamine. And so we did the world's

most extensive measurement of ketamine

with kernel before, during, and after.

And so that was interesting like and it

has some kind of, you know, transient

effect, but that's like a a a like a

little league relative to 5 MO.

>> And so as you've gone through this,

maybe share a little bit of the MRI data

that you're gathering and the other data

mapping neurological effects.

>> Yeah.

>> And tell us a little bit about what

you've learned

>> so far. Nothing. uh I have my subjective

experience to share but we we have a

structural brain MRI we have a

functional brain MRI we did kernel which

is like an optical interface and then I

did realtime EEG capture

>> and we should just talk about I think

it's important structural you can see

the the physical brain

functional you can see the activity in

the brain

>> so neurons firing and neurons that are

not firing right

>> and then electrical actions that are

measured by an electrical device

>> so we basically I wanted cuz the brain

is very so we've had a lot of success

rejuvenating my heart and my lungs and

muscle and body fat but rejuvenating the

brain is very hard

>> right

>> and so we this is why this is so such a

promising therapy so we wanted to look

at the brain uh through every modality

possible we wanted to look at blood flow

structural molecular you know the wave

pattern form so we it's a it's a very

high fidelity quantification and so

we'll see what the data comes out um I'm

very excited yeah

>> you did this on psilocybin as well,

right? You map the brain over time. What

did you learn there?

>> Dramatic

uh restoration of youthful brain

patterns.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> Yeah.

>> And

what comes after 5me [laughter]

I mean how far do you take this?

>> Yeah. Honestly, um

I am so encouraged by psychedelics. I

you know like in in the community where

I hang out, psychedelics have always

been understood as you know it's like a

retreat or it's like a a ritual or you

go to like do various explorations but

never in the world of longevity. It's

never been understood as that thing. And

now after seeing the data now I um

and of course you have to be very

careful when talking about psychedelics

because they're extremely powerful. It's

not like go out and do them everybody

right. It's like it needs to be done

properly with a licensed professional.

It needs to be done carefully. The

person needs to be in the right state.

Like it is not to be taken lightly. But

I am uh more interested than ever in

psychedelic compounds. They're just

uniquely powerful.

>> There's some arguments to be made that

psychedelics can induce permanent

psychosis.

>> Yeah.

>> Cause functional changes and drive some

people that might be predisposed into

schizophrenic states.

>> That's right. How did you get over those

risks? Because for a lot of people that

would turn them off to trying

psychedelics and it's not a nonzero

percentage of people that suffer these

consequences.

>> Yep. I agree. And and also people who

have really bad trips that leave them

star scarred. So it's it really is. And

I think in in part of it is um what

could be contributing to this is uh

people who for example who have tried uh

magic mushrooms.

You know it's in a social situation.

Someone's got a bag. you pull out some

mushrooms, it's like yeah, like weighs

blank and they pop it in, but they have

no idea what kind of mushroom strain

they're eating. They don't know what the

dose of psilocybin is. Uh, so it's like

unquantified, unsupervised, wrong

sentence setting. And so much of it I

think you can the risk persists, but I

don't think we we've approached

psychedelics with the appropriate rigor

that we should to make it safe. And so

it's not to say that we can solve for

the safety issues for all people. some

people just may not be the appropriate

candidate for it. But I think if we do

create a safety structure around it,

they could deliver the benefits people

want uh without, you know, with less of

the risk. But definitely I agree with

you like it's again it it deserves all

the caution in the world. Do you think

it's like neurogenic, neuroplasticity,

trauma resolution? And I mean what is

the way that this is going to be allowed

to become call it a medical therapeutic

that can be more broadly triled and then

eventually figure out how to bring it to

people without it being carrying all the

risks and burdens that it does today.

>> I mean if I just subjectively compare my

experience with 5 MO to you having a

better diet and exercising every day and

uh sleeping well and doing the sauna and

doing hyper oxygen therapy.

this was more efficacious than all of

them in terms of the reset of me as a

human. It it just is incomparable. And I

guess I'm I'm really left pondering like

for this molecule to have such a

gigantic impact now like how long will

it last? What's the decay curve like?

You know, will I find I I become the

former Brian within 30 days, 60 days? Do

I have to repeat this again? I don't

know. But it really is, you know, you

when you sleep well, you feel great.

When you exercise, great. But like

nothing like what 5 MO did in terms of

of like the reset of me as a human.

>> So let's just talk about the

consequences outside of the

physiological

which is life.

>> Yeah.

>> There are lots of stories and friends

that I have that and people that I know

>> that have tried a heavy psychedelic like

an Iawaska or something.

>> They were the CEO of a company and then

they quit their company and they go off

to the jungle, leave their family,

divorce their their partner.

um make such dramatic life changes

because their perspective has been

shifted so much

>> that they re-evaluate what matters in

life to such a degree that they give up

a lot of the things that mattered

before.

>> Yeah.

>> In the wake of that, there are people

that feel they're a victim of that

behavioral shift, the investors in the

company, the employees, the family

members, etc. Yeah.

>> Can you just talk a little bit about

those broad risks because we've seen it

and I don't know if you've seen the same

but friends that have kind of like said

I have this new perspective I'm giving

up my life.

>> I've seen the same thing and I um one

investor told me that he even put it in

the deal docks that you know if we

invest you're not going to do these

psychedelics because they wanted to

minimize the the risk profile. It's a

thing

>> in your deal in an investment in you.

No, I just spoke because I've been doing

this uh people bring this up as a topic

of conversation, right?

>> And so they say like, I see you're doing

this for longevity, but you know, like

I've seen so many examples where people

put money in, then you lose the founder.

Like they're off, everyone's high and

dry. And so they were telling me that

they put into Dill Docs that they can't

do this for the duration of the company.

And so it is a thing. And you know, I I

have nothing to say about it other than

I know it happens. Um, also I would say

that most people in the tech world that

I'm familiar with, again, they've done

this in retreat centers or in social

environments. It's not quantified. It's

not set and setting. It's so it's a

different thing. But I will say like,

you know, I I guess me as a person, what

I'm trying to focus on, I came back even

more motivated to do what I'm doing now.

Uh I don't have a desire to go off in

the woods, you know, and like and live

that kind of life. It it it emboldened

me to work on these things, but no

question about it. You you do have a

dramatic shift in perspective, and it's

it's very hard to get.

>> It begs a very important philosophical

question.

>> Who am I?

>> Yes.

>> If I'm defined by my experiences,

it roughly equates to my neurons are

wired in a way.

>> Yes. That's a consequence of my

experiences. And if I go in and take a

drug and in a few hours rewire all my

neurons, am I the same person?

>> What makes Brian Brian? You can maybe

recall some memories of Brian

>> prior to taking the psychedelic,

>> but Brian as a person has been rewired.

>> Are you a different person now? And what

does that say about are we ever a

persistent person?

>> Right.

>> Yeah, your question is spot on. probably

the most dramatic reconstruction of your

60 plus trillion cells than anything you

can do in life. Yeah. Like maybe like a

near-death experience, you know, would

would maybe uh be close, but it's a

dramatic rewiring of you as a as a

human.

>> Your values can change, too.

>> That's right.

>> And you could judge the values pre and

post, right? You could judge values

ascribed to you by a religion

>> or perhaps values ascribed to you by

responsibility to family members,

children, spouses, partners, what have

you.

>> You abandon them after you go through

this change. So your values have

changed. Is it right or wrong?

>> That's right.

>> I think is another important question

that comes out of all this.

>> I agree. And like you you now like you

now think about that that's been through

the frame where the world changes at a

certain speed. Now you take the world

where it's changing faster. So we now

know that it's hard to predict what's

going to happen two weeks from now or a

month, right? Like things are changing

very quickly. And so now you come up

with this practical question. Can humans

change fast enough in the world where AI

is the dominant engine of innovation?

And so in that case, like you may want

psychedelics as your ally to say, as a

human, I'm struggling to like move with

the change.

>> Yeah. And so there there's potentially

where it it flips from a liability to an

asset where like now I do want that

restructure changing even though you

have some tail risk of like maybe my

priorities will shift.

>> I think you have profound what I would

call psychoflexibility

and I think most people don't. They have

either a disinterest in changing who

they are overnight

>> or they're fearful of the the

ramifications or the experience

>> and that they wouldn't go through it.

How far would you take it? Would you

wire yourself up to a neural link or

neural enhancement device that would

give you the ability to have information

on demand and maybe change your

personality and capacity as a human

through an implant? Would you consider

doing something like that? You would

would you consider a transgenic system

where you basically take a plasmid which

would then express a set of proteins in

your body and change uh gene expression

profiles and cells in your body and

basically can rewire you as a different

person?

>> Yes.

>> Yes. Is there a limit to what you would

try? Oh,

>> interesting. Where do you think that

comes from?

>> I think I I find it to be the most

exciting configuration of life. Uh the

ability to play on the frontier, uh

novelty and expedition and challenge.

That's really my

>> Did you always have it or are you

responding to childhood suppression of

those?

>> It's probably it's probably an

overcompensation of of trauma response

like most things are. And so, you know,

as a child, I lived in a very structured

religious environment where things were

cemented like here's the story, here's

the plan, here's what you do and what

you don't do.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, yeah, maybe it's probably just

I'm now a flip in the opposite.

>> And so, I mean, that's like probably

true that I really uh I don't trust my

internal generation of reality. You

know, I know I'm always making things

up. I've got 188 chronicle biases like

all humans do. So I'm just I'm generally

suspicious of all things all time and I

don't take myself very seriously. So I

just find the the frontier play space to

be like right now I mean you know what

you're doing in building a company is

like you just open up a a toolkit and

say like what can I build and how do I

modify and uh so I agree with you I do

have a a strong proclivity towards

openness of play.

>> Do you find that you've been challenged

in maintaining I would call it external

responsibility as you explore and

enhance yourself so much. Do you give up

the responsibility to others around you

who maybe are dependent on you or or in

need of you?

>> Yeah, I have three kids and so um I do

think about them a lot and I you being a

father is a really important thing to me

and it's an important part of my

identity and so that has not changed. So

I've never uh vacasillated on that or

changed my disposition towards that. For

those around me, I guess fortunately I

have a a social group that just says go

and play. There's there's really no one

in my life

>> that tries to claw me back. There's no

Velcro.

>> It's just all encouraging. And so that I

guess I feel very fortunate that

everyone around me and they're willing

to take the risks. I mean, this is when

I sat down for 5 MO. I mean, my my

partner Kate like she's got a ton of

risk. Like what if it goes poorly? What

if I change my perspectives? What if

something bad happens?

Well, one could make an argument that

taking that degree of risk where

something could have gone wrong,

>> the people around you are enabling

versus being supportive, right?

>> That's right. That's right.

>> I mean,

>> yeah, that's right.

>> That's a consequence. But let's shift

topics to other uh

modalities for longevity.

>> Yeah.

>> What else is on the horizon? So, you've

had this profound set of experiences

with psychedelics. You've documented in

a very extraordinary and exquisite

fashion all of the other things that

you've been doing with interventions.

Are there other things that are on the

horizon that you're either excited about

or that you're considering yourself?

>> Yeah. I mean, two of the ones that we've

spoken about, cell therapy and gene

therapy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. They um they're all in the

pipeline. So, they're not ready yet.

We've we've knocked out all the stuff

you can do today. Like, we've gone

through it all, done it all. Um the

nextG therapies are just not there yet.

So, we're looking at mitochondrial

rejuvenation. I think that's incredible.

I think mitochondrial augmentation

therapy and there was a paper I saw

where in order to get the mitochondria

in the cell, they coded the mitochondria

in effectively a red blood cell envelope

>> which made it more transportable into

cells and less uh attack by the immune

system which is incredible. And I I'm a

big big big believer in this this this

course of therapeut therapeutic modality

that no one has even recognized.

>> I agree. We have our first uh

mitochondrial therapy lined up. So

>> how are you going to do it? you're

you're like 99.9%. You need someone

who's like 48.7%

[laughter]

>> to try the mitochondrial

particularly like you know I think they

tried it in Parkinson's patients

Alzheimer's patients that's where you

could really see profound shifts in

>> in certain metrics for you it's like

99.9 to what like

>> yeah I have the mitochondria you know of

a 48-year-old right so like what if I

>> what if I yes

>> you could go to your siblings child

because the mitochondria is passed

maternally because it's in the it's in

the egg Yeah.

>> So, it's the mother's mitochondria. So,

if you go down in the mother's line,

>> if you have a sister who has a kid,

they're going to have very young

mitochondria. You can take a little

blood sample and then

>> grow their mitochondria extensively and

use that as a biological match to

>> This is a a perfect extension. I've had

a blood boy as a son.

>> Yeah.

>> So, now I'm just going to go to the

extended family and be like, "Guys, it's

a it's a family project."

>> Yeah. Family project. Exactly. Yeah.

>> Well, that one's super interesting. We

also have one we're doing. Um I I'm now

building

>> Sorry. Are you going to do your own

mitochondrial transplantation? You're

going to build a bioreactor or you using

working with one of the third parties

that are

>> Yeah. third company. Yeah. So I'll get

I'll do a blood draw in the next week or

two. They'll spin up and then we'll do

it. Yeah. I'll do it.

>> Okay. Y

>> So you're going to get your mitochondria

which have some

you know the problem with mitochondria

as you know is mitochondrial DNA

degradation over time right? It

accelerates for certain people, but that

way if you go back to a young person,

you have young

>> mitochondria, but then you're going to

multiply yours out.

>> Yes.

>> And probably select a little bit or for

healthier ones. Yeah. Right. Okay. And

then put it back in.

>> It's very I mean exploratively like we

don't know. Uh we're one of the first.

They're they're in phase two now.

>> Do you sprint?

>> Yeah, I do.

>> So you could probably score if you did

it intramuscular like mitochondrial

therapy. You could sprint see your

score.

>> That's a great idea.

>> Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah,

>> that would be a great way to measure it

from a rather than just a basic

biomarker perspective. Be really

interesting to see.

>> Yeah, sprinting is one of the most

underappreciated longevity therapies.

>> Yeah, I I don't do it.

>> Oh man,

>> I've got the um the age of a 74y old uh

roughly [laughter]

>> I am uh I'm definitely not keeping track

with you. Would you consider or have you

looked at any plasmids where you take a

gene as DNA put in your body and then

that gene makes a protein in your body

that that does something

>> like the one we were looking at in the

foxil 3 expression. Yeah, exactly. So

the messenal stem cells you packaged up

with the fox3 delivery um you know that

showed that over 50% of tissues getting

that rejuvenation.

>> It's unbelievable.

>> Un it's like the best demonstration in

the entire world.

>> It's perfect for tissue regeneration

like as a particular application set

tissue regeneration using that sort of

system

>> seems like a no-brainer. It's like,

yeah,

>> it's safe, right? It's like, so yes, I I

uh reached out to that Chinese

professor. I'm really interested in

seeing it replicating. I would love

>> You reached out to the Chinese

professor?

>> Yeah,

>> that's awesome. [laughter]

We sent that paper back. Yeah. Yeah,

that's awesome. So,

>> can you respond?

>> Uh, yeah.

>> Awesome.

>> Yeah.

>> Good.

>> Uh, so we I'd love to do that. Um, I'd

love to actually build it ourselves, but

that's like a two-year project. So, um,

>> AI can help make it faster.

>> That's true. Actually, that's true. AI

as a project manager for these sorts of

programs is

>> you know that's true. We we spoke about

this six months ago. Yeah. And

>> things are so different.

>> So different now six months later in

terms of stand that up. Um that one's

cool. So I think that's a good good

option. Then also I'm doing uh Brian

Johnson organoids. So uh we took my IPS

IPSC's

>> we now have

>> induced pluropotent stem cells. So you

took your cells turn them into stem

cells. Yep. Yeah.

>> So now we're doing indish. So now we

have like a Brian Johnson heart, liver,

lungs, and now we're gonna try molecules

on me in

>> So you've appi So let me just walk the

audience through this. So you take cells

off of your skin or something blood and

then you put these Yamanaka factor

proteins on those cells causes those

cells to become stem cells which means

they can then turn into any other cell

and then you put other proteins on them

to turn them into a heart cell

>> or a eye cell or or what have you. And

now you've got a store of these tissue

specific Brian Johnson cells. Yes. That

you then use for

>> like you can say okay uh what if you

give Brian Johnson blank you know drug.

What is what happens? Is it good? Is it

bad? What are the side effects? What

>> in the P3 dish? You put the drug in

there see what happens.

>> Yeah. So like you can simulate all these

experiments. So now you you get the

advantage of time of acceleration of

like what to take, why, what dose.

That's awesome.

>> What comaterial things to consider. And

so we we have the organoids stood up. We

haven't done our first takes yet. So

that's interesting because now I have to

do this old school methodology like put

it in my body,

>> wait to see what happens. Is it good? Is

it bad? What, you know, how does it

affect everything else?

>> Yeah, totally.

>> That's a good one. But I mean, I don't

know. We'll see. It's cool in concept. I

mean, TBD if it actually works. So,

we'll see.

>> Have you tracked any of the alternatives

to Yamanaka factors, the factor

discovery work that's going on, and do

you think there's anything worth testing

at this stage?

>> Yeah, I'm an investor in New Limit. So,

I've talked to them about where they're

at and I mean

>> Blake and Brian's company,

>> they've done uh I mean they've made

remarkable progress. They they figured

out how to computationally solve the

discovery process.

>> Yeah.

>> And so they um they're much faster than

they initially thought. And so that's

very encouraging.

>> You know, the big challenge with

Yamanaka factors is always dosing. If

you overdose a cell, a one cell, that

cell can become a cancer cell and take

off as a tumor. Yeah. So the sensitivity

that you need to have to get the right

number of the factors which is a protein

into the cell needs to be

>> perfectly tuned.

>> So I have a theory that this will end up

being solved by cellular switches

>> that will end up putting machinery into

the cells that can turn on or off the

protein synthesis at the right dosing

>> based on the measurement of gene

expression in the cell. That's my theory

on where this will end.

>> That makes a lot of sense. Any other

control mechanism will be inadequate.

>> That's right. the feedback loop just

>> all you need is one error and you're

you're you're in trouble. But it is it

is the most profound I think technology

that humanity is dealing with today

besides AI. We're not quite there with

fusion which I would argue is probably a

distant third but it is very powerful

what's possible

>> and in the future like I think we'll

look back and we'll see GLP1s as the

first big drop.

>> Yeah. like what I can just inject myself

and like it solves hunger and you know

and then the second will probably be

something like new limit or one of these

fox one of these plasma based fox 3

therapies where

>> it will show real life like dramatic

changes totally

>> and then humanity will shift as like uh

longevity being a vision of sci-fi you

know rich people pursuit to like

something that is truly I mean go back

to like the conversation on on the

temptation towards socialism right like

if if you can feel robust in your

ability to pursue life and be healthy

and vibrant and uh in control. I think

these things could have dramatic changes

in society, not just in health, but like

>> well any form of abundance, whether it's

abundance in food, in energy, in

housing, in mobility, in lifespan, the

more abundance people get, the happier

they are. And the more you're improving

abundance in the world, the the better

we are going to live as a group of

people together on planet Earth, the

happier we will all be with each other.

>> I think like honestly like a lot of the

the

>> external conflict only comes from

internal unhappiness

>> 100%. Yeah. So, if you look at the

general malaise of like American

society, like no wonder

uh things are, right? Like you've got

metab 84% of people have metabolic

disorder. Over 40% of people are obese.

Like we're just in really poor health.

Nobody's sleeping. Everyone's on their

phone. Like we have mental health

issues. Like no wonder you have the

proclivity towards these kinds of

outcomes. Like so if you could get the

health in check, it changes the

psychological decision of you, your

community, your country. Like you have

much more of a can do attitude. like I

can take on the world and I can do hard

things, but when you're not feeling

well, like it's just everything is just

so much harder.

>> Yeah. 100%. And so in light of all of

these new therapeutic modalities and

these new opportunities that seem to be

biologically proven and have these

profound effects, why continue to tinker

with psychedelics? Like are they as

profound or are they a compliment or

like how do you think about fitting all

of this portfolio of things that you're

looking at together?

>> Yeah, I mean I guess the question is um

I forget on the Fox 3 study. I don't

know if they saw brain rejuvenation.

Didn't see that. Yeah.

>> I did not see that. And I don't

>> I don't remember. I mean, it is a very

complicated organ.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And

>> it's insane.

You know, you can grow muscle tissue

back and you can grow skin tissue back

and it's kind of like, okay, I grew a

little ex like if you grow the the

neurons back maybe in the wrong way.

Like we don't know.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's never been done before. So

understanding the consequence of neuro

regeneration is like

>> so I wonder like if the role it might

play like you know maybe psilocybin and

5 MO won't be um

you know meaningful for like basic

functions of the body but maybe it's the

uh the outperformer in youthfulness of

your of your disposition towards

reality. Like one thing I'm apprehensive

about is you I'm 48 and so

>> as you start climbing to your 50s 60s

you do

>> really narrow like your ambition goes

from I can do anything to start you know

narrowing down further and further and I

worry about using losing a youthful

disposition of a can do attitude of

anything is possible totally

>> and maybe that's the role of

psychedelics is you just get a wash of

like the snapback of like I can and I

can bounce

Yeah,

>> that definitely been the case for me.

So, I think they do probably play a

really important role of like they're

probably a set of things that for

certain people that will um

basically like I mean I felt like it was

like 30

40 years of

psychological rejuvenation, you know,

it's like to transport me back to a

childlike state. Yeah.

>> That is insane. I don't get that from

the sauna or from eating well or from

sleeping well. Like I'm still

>> right. So, just unique.

>> Yeah. Amazing. Well, listen. I'm going

to go drink alcohol and eat carbs and

stay out late. I don't know. What are

you going to do?

>> I'm gonna go to bed on time. Yeah. Do my

wind down routine.

>> Yeah. You do you. But you as well. Enjoy

[laughter] it.

>> I appreciate it. This has been great.

Brian Johnson, thank you. Thanks. Yeah,

that was awesome.

>> That was great.

I'm going [music] all in.