What they train Marines to do in

leadership is to get to 80% knowledge

and then choose and stop looking.

>> Now, that's really, really important

because you're going to be paralyzed if

you're trying to get to 100% knowledge

going,

>> which is what the pure seeker mentality

does. If you want to seek and get higher

presence, you need to go to 80%.

>> Mhm.

>> Now, how do you get to 80%. You get to

80% by saying, I'm pretty sure this is

right

>> and this is right enough that I'm going

to turn my attention to another

dimension on this. And that means if

you're in love, you should get married.

>> Wow. Arthur Brooks, we meet again.

>> Nice to see you, too.

>> Nice to see you.

>> You know, glad to see your the

vascularity in your arms is still

visible even through the long sleeve

shirt.

>> Yeah.

>> Because every woman wants a vascular

man.

>> You know, I I I I only take my cues from

the internet.

>> Exactly. My wife every day, she says, "I

love you. You're so vascular.

could really take this a lot of

directions, but I'm going to take a hard

left from vascularity and I'm going to

try to pronounce Brahma Merta.

>> Brahma mahorta.

>> Okay, Brahma Maherta. And the reason I'm

bringing this up is because I want to

offer some candy

much like maybe an ET putting the

Reese's

pieces on the floor to lure ET out. I

want to bring my listeners and dieards

into the conversation with a morning

routine

>> and we'll we'll talk about evening

routines at the end as bookmarks and

then we're going to dive into all sorts

of stuff. But what is Brahma Mherta and

could you describe your personal morning

routine?

>> I do have a very strong and very

disciplined morning routine and I

studied love and happiness. So it's not

as if I'm, you know, doing going deep

into the physiology of actually how I

can have the best amount of muscle mass

and minimum amount of body fat. I want

to have more love and happiness in my

life. And it's not easy. So I'm a

>> specialist in human happiness because

it's hard for me. That's the first thing

to I know everybody who does research on

happiness in the psychology, behavioral

science world, they're doing it for a

reason.

>> Yeah. It's sort of me search more than

research. But one of the things that I

found is that discipline and an

understanding of your own human

physiology, the biology and neuroscience

is critical for actually becoming a

happier person. So I have a morning

routine that I dedicate to being both

more productive and having higher

well-being.

>> So I'm managing mood because high

negative affect is characteristic of my

personality and

>> and I also need to be really productive

because the morning hours are when

you're most productive, especially in

creative stuff. Almost everybody

experiences this and that starts with

what you just mentioned which is called

the Brahma Mahorta. Now I've studied a

lot in India. I go to India every year.

I have spiritual teachers but also I'm

very interested in behavioral science in

the Vadic tradition. They came to a lot

of truths way before western social

science actually came upon this. And one

and one of the ideas was Brahma Mahorta

which in Sanskrit means the creator's

time. Now a mahorta is is 48 minutes

long. So two mahortes, the Brahma Mahort

is an hour and 36 minutes before dawn.

And the whole idea going back thousands

of years is you get up an hour and 36

minutes before dawn and you'll be more

creative, more in touch with the divine,

more productive, and happier.

>> This was always the contention. So of

course, it's been put to the test in

modern behavioral science research. And

sure enough, we don't know if it's two

mahortas is the right number of

mahortas. But the whole point is getting

up before dawn has incredible impacts on

productivity, focus, concentration, and

happiness. If you're getting up when the

sun is warm, you've lost the first

battle for mood management and

productivity is what it comes down to.

So my days always start before dawn. Now

I usually set the clock for 4:30 in the

morning, which is a lot before dawn in

who knew that Jaco Willink was such a

fan of Vadic traditions. He also wakes

up at 4:30. Yeah, please continue.

>> 4:30 is a good time for a lot of

different reasons. You try to retrofit

your schedule to what you need to do for

sure. And that's a long time before dawn

in the winter and not that long before

dawn in the summer. And our our

listeners in Helsinki are like, "What do

I do in July?" I mean, okay, you know,

you have to tailor the routines to what

you're doing, but it's very clear that

this is good for productivity and very

good for happiness. And then the most

important thing is what do you do right

after that?

>> Yeah. What do you do?

>> I pick up heavy things and run around.

>> Okay. So the most well the most

important room in my house is the gym.

>> And I've always had a good gym in my

house down in the basement of my house.

Now down in the basement of my house is

also living one of my kids and his wife

and their two sons. So I have to be real

quiet heavy things clanking around down

there because like I don't want to wake

up my grandchildren. But you know I do

generally speaking 2/3 resistance 1/3

zone 2. But I tailor that to what my day

is going to look like. So, if I have a

sedentary day, I'll do Moto Zone 2 to

start the day. And if I know I'm walking

around, I'm walking around campus or

whatever I have to do, I know I'm going

to be walking seven or 10 miles that

day, I'll do all resistance. And so,

that really depends. Or if I'm going on

a hike with my wife on Saturday or

something, but that's 7 days a week. I

do an hour in the gym 7 days a week.

What would the let's just say

prototypical

2/3 resistance 1/3 zone 2 or whatever

the the ratio might look like as a

template. What would that look like?

Like what do the what type of exercises,

free weights, equipment, kettle bells?

What type of zone 2 do you like?

>> Because for instance, like with zone 2,

it's like I travel a lot. Stationary

bikes can be a real hassle because of

the fitting. But then, all right, maybe

you use a treadmill with an incline with

a rook sack or something like that. I'd

just love to know the specific.

>> Yeah, for sure. I'm very old school. So,

my resistance training actually I

learned the routines that I do when I

was in my 30s. I really started lifting

when I was in my 30s and you know, my

dad died and I and I I changed a lot of

the things in my life. I quit drinking

alcohol in my 30s and and I did a lot of

things differently that I hadn't done

before because I wanted to not have the

future that I saw in the windshield of

my life. And one of the things that I

did was I started getting serious about

my fitness and going to the gym. And I

thought to myself, you know, what's my

goal? My goal is not to, you know, turn

into a statue and, you know, be admired.

I mean, I've been married for a long

time at that point. I mean, that was

sort of done. And besides, my wife

doesn't care. She just wants me to be

happy and healthy.

I wanted to be doing that in my 70s. I

wanted to be healthy in my 70s. I wanted

to be hanging out with my wife and, you

know, dandling my 11th grandchild on my

knee when I was 78 years old. So, what I

did was I've always been on tour. I've

always traveled constantly all

throughout my career. Every city I'd go

to, I'd find the oldest iron gym I could

find. Why? Because that's where the old

dudes train.

>> That's where like the the shredded guys

train. And now I'm the old guy, right?

So my wife says that that you know

sleeping with me is like holding a

leather sack of ropes

which is I think it's a compliment. I'm

not sure, you know, but I've been

married decades to him. Decades. But I

would go to these iron

>> better than a leather sack of lard,

right?

>> Yeah. For sure. For sure. It's like

ropes. Yeah.

>> And it's a So we I go to these gyms for

78-year-old guys who are completely

shredded. They look like an old roosters

and they're they're working out and I

would say teach me teach me maestro you

know the sensei teach me what you do and

they would give me this advice and I

followed that advice deciduously and so

what it is is I'm old school push pull

legs

>> don't use a bar

>> and is it push pull legs every workout?

>> No, it's push pull legs on different

days. So, it's kind it's not a pure bro

split, but it's near on, right?

>> Making sure that you're not getting

heroic with the amount of weight. You're

making sure that you're using dumbbells

and not bars because you can get full

range of motion. Be super careful about

your joints. If you have any pain in

your joints, you back off. You do for

volume, you do more reps as opposed to

more weight.

>> And always be doing it that way. And

dial it down the actual weight, dialing

up the reps as you get older.

>> And these are these basic ideas. So,

it's push pull legs and then I'm doing

usually somewhere between 20 minutes and

40 minutes of zone 2 cardio which I have

an elliptical machine because it's super

easy on the joints.

>> Yeah.

>> And every place, every hotel's got an

elliptical machine. I've got a nice

elliptical machine at home and that's

what I'm doing. And this is an hour. A

lot of the time I'm doing it without

headphones. It's important because you

need to concentrate for

>> to begin with that's your most creative

time. That's like taking an hourong

shower. You get your best ideas if you

work out without headphones. There's a

lot of good neuroscience on that as

well. And that's 4:45 to 5:45 in the

morning every single day. That's the one

thing I can really count on is always

going to be good. Always going to be

good.

>> Do you record your workouts, videotape

my workouts?

>> No. In any type of like workout journal,

or is it so intuitive at this point that

you're like, I really know since I'm

using dumbbells and dumbbells should be

consistent from place to place.

>> I can tell you what I did on this day in

2001.

>> Meaning you remember it.

>> No. Meaning it's written down. Okay.

Like, wait a second.

>> Yeah. No, no, I'm not.

>> There's some people who are like that.

>> Sort of a Rainman deal.

>> Well, for instance, people you wouldn't

expect. Arnold Schwarzenegger loves

chess. And when I first interviewed him,

I was talking to his right-hand man. He

said, "Oh, he plays chess daily with X

number of people over the course of a

week or two, and he keeps track of every

game and every score in his head."

>> That's amazing. So, no, I'm not doing

that. But I can tell you, I mean, I've

got I have journals that go back, you

know, I write it down and so I know, you

know, what's on what day and you know

what I did. There's a whole lot of

things that I keep records of for sure,

just so I understand my own progress in

life,

>> making sure I'm not making regress in

life.

>> And for some reason, I got into the I

got into the pattern of writing down

every single workout going back, you

know, until back to my 30s.

>> Yeah. The same.

>> And now I'm 61 years old. That's a lot

of date books.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I have workouts going back

to 16 and I still keep them.

>> Yeah. I don't know why I keep them, but

I have them.

>> I can tell you behaviorally why people

do that. I mean, what you want is record

of progress because that's one of the

great secrets to human happiness. You

never arrive. Arrival gives you almost

nothing. But a progress toward the goal.

>> And this is a record of Tim's progress

going all the way back to 16 is evidence

that you're a better man than when you

were 16 years old. Let's hope. Certainly

not as strong as I was when I was in my

20s, but still zone two, not dying.

>> Nothing like this. No, it's fantastic.

It's really a great way to start the

day. And there's a lot of research once

again on on this is especially important

for mood management. So half of the

population is above average in negative

affect.

>> Negative a effect is strong negative

manifestation of mood.

>> Yeah.

>> And obviously if it's the median, half

has to be above that and half has to be

below. And I'm way above average in

negative a effect. I'm above average in

positive e. Yeah. I mean, you're a mad

scientist, which is typically

>> you're a poet. We talked about this

last.

>> Oh, we did this. You are a poet. So,

you're below average positive.

>> Below average positive. High peak

negative.

>> High peak negative. So, I'm at the 90th

percentile in negative mood.

>> Yeah.

>> And there are ways, typical ways that

people self-manage negative mood that

are really, really bad for you. like

drugs and alcohol, like internet use,

like pornography, horrible negative mood

management, workcoholism, awful. People

distract themselves because they're, you

know, the the amygdala

>> of the brain is what largely manages

fear and anger, but the amydala also

manages attention. And so, if you can

distract yourself with something you can

count on, like your work, what you're

effectively doing is you're managing

your anger and fear by by redirecting

the activity of the amigdula. That's

>> right. Checks out. But there's good ways

to do it like your work in like

developing your spirituality and picking

up heavy things and running around.

>> So we're going to we're going to stick

on the heavy things for a second here as

well as the elliptical

>> cuz we're not even done with that.

>> We're not even done. So we have we have

the waking early. Let's call it 4:30.

That for me early 7:30 this morning. I

was very pleased with myself after

arriving from travel at midnight

>> on the West Coast.

>> Exactly. Exactly. It's 4:30 somewhere.

And we've covered that briefly. For zone

2, are you wearing a heart rate monitor?

Are you doing the talk test? How are you

tracking

>> talk? Talk the talk test. It's just

keeping it as simple as possible.

>> I tend to go insane if I'm over

measured.

>> Yeah.

>> And so that's one of the reasons I use

very very simple, you know, biometrics

and very simple health on I'm I'm going

to need to move up to something better

at some point, but if I get too much

data,

>> I'm in trouble.

>> Yeah. I mean it's like having seven

different drafts of a piece of writing

you're working on. Yeah.

>> Now what do you do? I mean in in a sense

there's there's data and then there's

information which you need to analyze.

So there is a point of diminishing

returns talk test for people just very

briefly. Peter has videos on this of

himself on a stationary bike

demonstrating it on social media if you

want to try to find them.

>> But in effect and please tell me if I'm

off base with how you approach it. you

are able to while you're in this zone

two on say an elliptical stationary bike

treadmill you're able to speak or have a

conversation with very short sentences

but you don't really want to exactly

right zone three you're too out of

breath to have a normal conversation

zone four you're gasping for air so I

mean zone one is just you're strolling

yeah

>> is kind of what it comes down to and

your heart rate to be in the zone two is

usually around 120 beats per minute and

I'll also do some period periods of, you

know, some intervals in that. I'll do

two or three intervals during a half

hour zone 2 cardio session. So, I'll

take it up to 160 beats per minute for a

full minute to bring it back. I'll do

some of that hit training while I'm

doing it. But 120 beats per minute is

really really easy thing to ascertain

because it's I'm an old musician.

>> That's the speed of a Soua March. A

what? Soua March.

That's 120 beats per minute. That's how

you know.

>> I mean, when you put out your elliptical

ecourse, I think this is the lead in

music. It's my bump music, man.

>> All right. So, after the actually before

we get to after the exercise, for folks

who might be interested in really diving

into this, number one, Peter has a lot

on it. Number two, if you want to get

nerdy, the Morpheus device has been

recommended to me by folks like Andy

Gallpin and others. There are other

options, but that seems to be a pretty

good device. So, in terms of developing,

if you're not a former French horn

player, the intuition of what is

120 or 130 beats per minute, you can do

much like I've already done with, say,

glucose readings or ketone readings. I

know where I am, but I'm not yet there

with heart rate. The Morpheus is is a

nice tool for learning what it feels

like to be at 120 versus 130 versus

whatever it might be. All right, you

have your workout. After the workout,

>> what is your morning routine?

>> I get cleaned up. Then I go to mass.

>> I'm a Catholic. I go to mass every day.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's the experience of

transcendence, which my my path is not

the only path. You know, I'm going to

say everybody's got to go to mass.

That's

>> that's not going to be effective because

that's not for everybody. But there's a

period of reflection and transcendence

that's very very important for not just

mood management for productivity that's

that's going to follow. And there's a

lot of neuroscience behind why that is

effective. But for me it's also an

opportunity because that's my wife gets

up at 6.

>> And when I'm home I'm home about half

the time. I'm on tour about half the

time home but I'm home every week. So I

don't go on tour for months at a time. I

go on tour for days at a time which

means that I've always got you know a

flight home. And that's inconvenient,

but that's actually part of my life

protocols is making sure I spend every

single weekend at home.

>> I'm out maybe four weekends a year. And

so that means I have lots of days at

home. I have at least three or four

mornings at home. And we start the day

at at 6:30 mass. The two of us do.

That's very mass

>> half an hour.

>> Daily mass is half an hour. You know,

Sunday mass is an hour.

>> But you know, daily mass is half. You

know, during the week after 30 minutes,

no souls are saved.

according to science. No. So

>> we do that and that's a that's a that's

a period of prayer and reflection. Some

people prefer vaposa meditation.

>> Mhm.

>> Our friend Brian Holidayiday does a lot

with actually studying the stoic

philosophers, but you need what the

ancients would call the holy hour

>> and they would be a full hour. I for me

it's the holy half hour.

>> So and that really works and it's really

good for my relationship and it's very

good for it's incredibly good for focus

and concentration. So, I want to

bookmark just to give a shameless plug

for our first conversation.

>> Yeah.

>> For people who are like, "Oh, yeah.

Okay. Well, I didn't grow up Catholic.

You didn't grow up Catholic. Your

parents thought that your conversion was

an act of youthful rebellion,

>> which it might have been.

>> It might have been, but it stuck.

>> So, if you want the backstory,

>> including some wild stories,

>> then listen to our first conversation."

So I'm basically the equivalent of like

a freaked out hippie who, you know, went

to India and got converted and practiced

an exotic religion for the rest of my

life. But my exotic religion is

Catholicism.

>> I mean, depending on where you start,

it's pretty exotic.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> All right. So, you have the holy half

hour.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, our routines have a lot of

similarities,

>> although the flavors are slightly

different. We could talk about that.

probably the neuroysiological effects

are the same.

>> Very very similar I would imagine. So

after the holy half hour, what happens

>> after the holy half hour? Now I've taken

no nutrition except for you know

salty water with some you know a high

dose. I take highdose creatine

monohydrate with my workout drink.

>> What's high dose?

>> High dose for me is 15 to 20 grams a

day.

>> That is a okay.

>> So five the first five is for you know

muscle protein synthesis or volumization

of muscles which is really good for your

workout. The other is for this just

exploding area of research on the on the

biological benefits of it, the

neurobiological benefits of it. And for

me that's really really important

because you know I'm a crummy sleeper

and and you know Rhonda Patrick has done

a lot of stuff on how how creatine is

really good when you don't sleep.

>> Yeah.

>> It's also really good because I'm trying

to bank neurologically

4 hours of concentration and is mostly

creativity. Mhm.

>> So, I have to I have to set myself up

for optimal creativity, and that's one

of the best ways to do it. That's the

best supplement that I've been able to

find that affects my creativity later on

in the morning.

>> So, I'm adding that to my pre-workout

drink.

>> I'm not taking no caffeine.

>> Yeah,

>> this is important. I don't take any

caffeine to wake up. Huberman's right on

this and this is all this is very

contested in the literature about A2A

adenosine and how caffeine blocks

adenosine receptors

>> but I really believe and and believes

this but I find I I find this the most

compelling explanation and it absolutely

works for me I don't use caffeine to

wake up I use caffeine to focus

>> because what I want is I actually want

circulating adenosine to metabolize and

to clear endogenously

>> and I want lots and lots of clarity

plenty of open parking spots for the

adenosine receptors that I can then fill

2 to three hours after I wake up with

caffeine. And this will give me this is

just

>> medapanyl at this point. This is just

vacuuming

um this is going to vacuum.

>> Be careful actual medafanyl kid.

>> No, no, I know that's I'm not that. So

it's vacuuming the dopamine into the

prefrontal cortex. So, so what the ADHD

drugs do is that they keep more dopamine

in the syninnapse, especially in the

prefrontal cortex such that you can

focus, you have more concentration, and

you have more creativity. And caffeine

is great for this. A lot of people like

nicotine. I don't like nicotine only

because I was hopelessly addicted to

cigarettes. Early on in my life, all the

way through my 20s, I was a smoker.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don't want I mean, I blew it.

Well, a lot of people are step by step

blowing it also with first micro doing

nicotine and then lo and behold since

it's sort of dance partners in addictive

potential with heroin.

>> Yeah.

>> Then those micro doses become something

along the line of mezodoses and then

before you know it you're addicted to

>> pretty soon it's all nicotine all the

time. Exactly. And and you know caffeine

is highly addictive as well but as a

psycho stimulant

>> it's better studied. It's much much

easier to self-manage. I you know I get

usually about 380 milligrams of

caffeine.

>> Oh, that's decent.

>> It's decent.

>> Holy cow.

>> That's a venty dark roast from

Starbucks. I grew up in Seattle town.

>> I mean 380 for a lot of people if you

have moderately strong coffee. That's

going to be almost four cups of coffee.

>> Yeah. And that's 20 ounces of, you know,

good. I mean, and again, the darker

roasts have less caffeine,

>> but I like them better because I grew up

on the north side of Queen Anne Hill in

Seattle when there was one Starbucks.

And so, I've been doing that since I was

in 8th grade.

>> All right. So, you have the holy half

hour.

>> Yeah.

>> And then after the holy half hour, you

haven't had any caffeine up to that

point.

>> And now it's 7:15 in the morning.

>> All right. Now,

>> I'm back from math.

>> Now, what do you do?

>> I brew the coffee. And I know how to

brew coffee.

>> Now, do you have the 380 in a mega dose

or is that titrated over time?

>> No. in a mega dose that usually it takes

me about 45 minutes to drink.

>> Oh my god.

>> Half an hour to 45 minutes to drink. I

know. Well, part of it is I've got this

grizzled adrenal system, but this my HPA

axis is like a building falling down at

this point. So, you

>> just have to donkey kick your adrenals.

Okay, got it. So, so then you you brew

the coffee.

>> Yeah.

>> And sit down.

>> Then I make my first nutrition of the

day. And the first nutrition of the day

is 60 to 70 grams of protein.

>> Mhm. And protein is really important,

especially with a tryptophanrich source

of protein for mood management.

>> And I'm not eating a turkey leg or

something like that's not that's not I'm

not, you know, like Henry VII.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, for that it's it's mostly whey

protein powder mixed in with non-fat

unflavored Greek yogurt.

>> Okay.

>> Which is great. And there's so many.

It's like any more. I just read that the

three most the fastest growing foods in

America today are cottage cheese, Greek

yogurt, and whey protein powder, which

is extraordinary. Extraordinary when you

think about it. You and I got to this

much earlier back when it was harder to

find Greek yogurt. And I put a little

artificial sweetener in it because I'm

not afraid of artificial sweetener. And

I get more micronutrients in it with

>> putting walnuts and blueberries and, you

know, things that actually give me the

micronutrients that I need. By the way,

I've also taken a multivitamin at this

point. Mhm.

>> I take a multivitamin every day. I've

been taking a multivitamin for decade

after decade after decade. And there's

these papers that were coming out 5

years ago saying that they're not only

ineffective, they're bad for you.

>> That's all been overtaken by events. And

the newer research actually says it has

neurocognitive protective benefits.

>> Take your multivitamins. And there are a

lot of ways to do it. You know,

sometimes I'll take a, you know, good

multivitamin in the morning. Sometimes I

wait later in the day and take AG1. But

you need a good multivitamin. Almost

everybody does. So a few p not

personnicity but detail questions

because that's how my mind operates. Why

no fat Greek yogurt instead of something

with fat. Fat would be better for me to

be sure is that the fat bothers my

stomach.

>> Ah okay.

>> So I just I don't like it. It fills me

up too much. It's hard to get to 65 gram

of protein

>> when you've got that much fat in the

yogurt because it's you're just going to

be just

>> falling asleep. I only do that because

it's uncomfortable to have the fat.

>> Got it. And I'll add just a footnote for

some people listening who will say,

"Wait a second. I thought you could only

absorb 30 grams of protein at a

sitting." That is

>> that's old school research.

>> Quite a Yeah, it is somewhere between an

old wives tale and just a statement that

has been repeated so much that it's

taken to be true, but it's not true.

>> It's not true.

>> And in fact, there is or I should say

there are some data to suggest that as

you get older, you actually absorb

protein more effectively in a larger

bolus. gaining more protein at fewer

sittings.

>> Right. That's correct. I'm completely

persuaded by the research and and and

over the years I've experimented a lot

with that in my diet, just in the

protocols of my eating. And what I found

over the past 5 years in particular is

that I'm most comfortable because I'm

naturally genetically really lean. I'm

most comfortable when I'm sub 10 body

fat.

>> Yeah, me too. I'm kidding.

>> But it's just, you know, because of my

genetics. But

>> yeah, been trying to get there since I

was 14.

If you know the the genetics don't want

it, then they're going to battle dwarfed

genetics.

>> No man, if I had your frame, I mean, I

would I would love that. I would be able

to lift heavy,

>> but the way to do that for me is to stay

at 200 g of protein a day.

>> Yeah.

>> So, to keep moderate calories and 200

grams of protein a day, and then I can

keep my body fat where I want it, where

I feel really good, and I'm never

hungry.

>> Yeah.

>> So, and that's the way to do it is a

really protein richch diet. And of

course now popular culture is catching

up with what we've known scientifically

for a pretty long time.

>> So you get your

colossus of caffeine and can follow the

holy half hour just to keep up with

everybody has to drink 380 millig of

caffeine.

>> You have your 60 to 70 gram of protein

as described and then you are sitting

down to write. What are you doing?

>> Yeah, then I can sit down to write. If

I'm at home then then I sit down to

write and there's no distractions. Mhm.

>> I mean, there's no meetings. There's no

Zoom. I mean, if the president of the

United States or the Pope calls, there

will be a morning meeting, but that's

kind of it, you know, and I've got a

very quiet place. I'm not looking at

email. I'm not, you know, answering text

messages. I'm not looking for I'm not

reading the Wall Street Journal to do

this with when I set myself up this way.

I get 4 hours of of productivity. And

that's very unusual. If you're doing

things the oldfashioned way, you know,

you're getting up when the sun is warm

and you having the nice big, you know,

three espressos to try to wake up and

and you're not optimizing your brain

chemistry appropriately, you'll get two

hours of creativity max. That's why, you

know, Hemingway used to write for two

hours away.

>> I was just going to bring up Hemingway

also because he would leave things

unfinished. He would basically end mid

paragraph so that he had momentum in

starting the following day. And I

suppose my question is in a world of

ubiquitous interruption and notification

where you have iMessage on your

computer. Yeah. You have chat GBT, you

have research that you might do

concurrently with your writing. There

are different ways to approach writing.

How do you set yourself up say the day

before such that you can sit down

without interruption

or self-interruption?

>> Yeah.

>> For 4 hours and write.

>> To begin with, you need to know what

you're going to do the next day, the day

before. Mhm.

>> You need to make a list of the things

you're going to do in priority order.

And the priority order is not what you

like the most, but what actually

requires the most concentration and

creativity.

>> So the thing you need to hit

immediately, which will be the last 10%

of that page you were writing. That's a

really good protocol to procrastinate

that last 10%. Because your most

creative, most productive, your best

quality stuff is first.

>> And so you want to leave the last to be

the first the next day.

>> And that way you've got consistent

creativity. If I'm writing a column, for

example, and I'm on deadline every

single week for a column and it's 1,200

words a week of science about human

happiness.

>> Sounds stressful. Sounds like a way to

make yourself unhappy.

>> Yeah. I know. I'm I'm I'm hunted. But

doing that, if I sit down and write it,

the the kicker is always going to be

worse than the lead.

>> Yeah.

>> And so the kicker is always the first

thing in the morning someday,

>> right? so that the kicker is as good as

the lead or better because I'm leaving

it so that my brain chemistry is

optimized to the product that I'm trying

to create. That was a very good protocol

from from Hemingway. His problem was he

was a drunk.

>> Yeah.

>> And when you're a drunk, what you're

doing is you're borrowing tomorrow's

dopamine tonight.

>> You're borrowing, as a friend of mine

put it also, you're borrowing happiness

from tomorrow.

>> Yeah. And the reason is because your

dopamine is going to be below the

baseline and you're going to have

anhidonia in the morning. Andhidonia is

a characteristic of clinical depression

which is a deficit of dopamine meaning

an inability to feel pleasure and is

below the baseline when you're hung over

below the baseline when you've when

you've popped it really hard and you're

getting the trough the next day. If you

drink at night and if you want to be

productive the next morning this morning

starts last night

>> and it starts by going to bed at a

reasonable time sober which we'll

probably get to at the end of this

conversation.

>> So that's why he had two hours to bed

sober. Well, also because if you need

any, and this is my kind of repeated

realization that should be top of mind

all the time, which is if you wear an

Aura ring, a Whoop band, the one

conclusion that you will come to over

and over again, is if you drink before

bed, even a few hours before bed, your

sleep is garbage.

>> Your sleep architecture is so messy.

>> And for me now, for whatever reason, at

this age, I'm 48. I had one martini with

my brother. I don't see him that much.

We went out to a nice speak easy, had a

drink, and just

shattered my sleep. It was shocking to

me. Kind of embarrassing.

>> The older you get. And you know, the

truth is that young people are figuring

out what people my age didn't when I was

I mean, I drank very heavily in my 20s

and 30s. It's what we did. I was a

musician. It's what we did. We knew it

wasn't good for us. But the truth of the

matter is that if it's euphoric, if it

gets you buzzed, it's neurotoxic. And

you have to be careful applying

neurotoxic substances to yourself

because you're going to pay a price for

that. Now, there's a costbenefit

analysis to anything. I don't drive the

safest car. I don't drive a car that

that if it crashes, I will be completely

safe no matter what. I drive something I

like. I'm making a costbenefit analysis.

But the truth is that many people, they

think it's costless to get buzzed.

>> Mhm.

>> It's not. Just isn't.

>> Your routine, I'll just pause us there,

is very, very similar

to mine. Tell me more.

>> Well, right now I'm day three of

segueing into ketosis. We're always

producing ketones, but I'm probably just

because I've done this a lot, I'm

probably at right now like 1.2 millmers

in terms of blood concentration of like

beta hydroxybutyrate after ketosis. You

like how it feels?

>> I love how it feels in terms of mental

acuity. I also because I have

neurogenerative diseases in my family

>> and metabolic dysfunction see doing

let's just call it four to 6 weeks of

nutritional ketosis once or twice a year

to appear to be very cheap insurance.

>> What's your APOE profile?

>> ApoE 34.

>> You're 34?

>> Yeah. 34. There are other risk factors.

I also have relatives who are 33 but

nonetheless developed early Alzheimer's.

So, I'm like, "Yeah, you know what? I I

like how I feel. I need less sleep when

I'm in ketosis. I naturally wake up

very, very alert, which is unusual for

me." I wanted to mention that first just

to set the stage in a way.

>> So, I for decades did minimum 30 g of

protein within 30 minutes of waking up.

I still think that is a great option for

me now for a host of reasons that I

could get into, but I'll keep it simple.

I almost always do intermittent fasting

where I am fasting until 2 or 3 p.m. in

the afternoon, but when I wake up, like

this morning I woke up at 7:30 and I was

preparing for this conversation. So, I

wanted to block out a few hours to do

that, but woke up had, now this is

mildly stimulating, but I wanted to have

a little bit because I'm also jet-lagged

and arrived at around midnight last

night. had some cacao with a little bit

of cacao butter mixed in.

>> Nice.

>> Just enough under three grams of net

carbs

>> because you're keeping your net carbs to

30 a day probably, right?

>> I'm keeping my net grams to for me

personally right now under 10 g.

>> Under 10. That'll get you into ketosis

fast.

>> Under 10. Yeah. Especially if I am

already adapted to intermittent fasting

so that I'm doing 16 to 18 hours of

fasting with a short 68 hour window of

eating. Once you get to 16 to 18 hours,

especially if you're doing some

exercise, let's just say in the morning

or any other point, you're depleting

your liver glycogen and you're going to

get into the habit. Your metabolic

machinery will develop the habit and the

capability of producing ketones even

when you are eating carbohydrates in

that limited window of eating.

>> And you don't take exogenous ketones. I

will occasionally on a day like today

because I know that I'm on effectively

let's call it day two and a half of

segueing into ketosis. I think my

natural production is roughly where I

mentioned my natural production right

now is probably around.9.

>> Mhm.

>> Let me just back up. So I wake up at

7:30. I have the the cacao plus some

cacao butter.

Then I sit in and I have a hot tub. This

is like one of my indulgences. It's not

actually that expensive, but I sit in a

hot tub and I meditated for 10 minutes

with an app, the Way app. Henry Shookman

is my spirit animal. Amazing

mindfulness/zen

focused practice. Did that 10 minutes,

that's it. Got out. It is pretty chilly

right now in Austin.

>> Gets down to I think last night it was

37 low. got into my pool for a few

minutes and got out, cold shower, came

back in and then sat down and this was

my kind of deep work prep, right? No

interruptions.

>> There's non-trivial similarity to what

I'm trying to do neurokcognitively.

>> Yeah, exactly. And then on the way here,

about 15 minutes prior to arriving,

knowing my start time, there were a few

other bells and whistles that I threw in

nutritionally in terms of supplements

and so on earlier in the morning, but

had one nitro cold brew from Starbucks

and about 15 milliliters of exogenous

ketones.

>> Mhm. In this case, it's BHB bonded to 13

butane dial, which I do have some

reservations about. Long-term chronic

use, I think could be liver toxic, but

I'm doing it very intermittently. And

so, for the let's just call it 4 days of

segue into

nutritional ketosis, I will use

exogenous ketones sometimes as a boost.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's it. That was the

>> And it's working great for you. And

here's a big takeaway. I think you got

to that through experimentation.

>> Yep.

>> You didn't get that by getting it off

the internet. You learned a lot about

these different

>> variety of protocols.

>> Mhm.

>> And you tailored it and tried it and

over a number of years

>> came upon what worked best for you. And

it's exactly what I've done too. And

everybody watching needs to treat their

life like a lab.

>> Yeah.

>> Experimentation is king. The precursor

to good experimentation is information.

Is scientific information. And then it's

getting experience through the

experimentation and figuring out what

your own protocol actually is.

>> Mhm.

>> Because as they say in the ads, your

results may differ.

>> Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so for me, if

I'm weight training, I will typically

weight train late afternoon. That's just

always been my preference.

>> But if we had not had this podcast

today, I would have done zone 2

training.

>> Mhm. In the morning.

>> Right. Exactly. After the meditation

>> before you eat.

>> Before I eat.

>> You like fasted cardio? I do like

fasting.

>> Yeah, I do too.

>> Especially when I'm trying to get into

ketosis or intermittent fasting because

it'll help me deplete the stored

glycogen at a faster rate. If it is too

high, just for people who may be

interested in intermittent fasting or

ketosis, if the exertion level is too

high or if it is resistance training,

sometimes it will spike glucose in such

a way that makes it a little

counterproductive if you're trying to

get into ketosis. So the zone

>> because your stress hormones are

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you're

already going to have increased cortisol

in the morning. You need that to wake

up.

>> And also with caffeine often times

you'll see a pretty noticeable spike in

glucose. So I try not to compound it by

doing the weight training in the

morning.

>> At this point in the cycle of getting

into ketosis, do you you have headaches?

>> I had a mild headache yesterday. I will

say that the biggest cheat for me in

terms of getting into ketosis quickly

and relatively painlessly is

training my body to intermittent fast.

Intermittently fast. And I have been in

ketosis dozens of times in my life. And

I've done extended periods, 6 months in

ketosis and so on. Particularly when I

was actually training for sports, which

seems counterintuitive, but I was doing

something called the cyclical ketogenic

diet, which is really interesting. M

>> when I was training for the national

Chinese kickboxing championships in 99

that was an amazing system for cutting

weight getting lean but also maintaining

or adding some muscle mass in any case

people can look it up

>> confusing your system in a cycle right

you're staying out of equilibrium in a

way right

>> you're definitely doing that what you're

doing with the CKD people can look it up

there are many people who have pioneered

this borrowqual with the anabolic diet

there are different names for it Dan

Duchain way back in the day also talked

about this but you are providing a short

window once a week where you are in my

case doing a glycogen depletion weight

training workout and then you are

spiking the hell out of your

carbohydrate intake for let's call it 15

hours something like that and you are

really piling in carbohydrate and you

are leveraging insulin as a storage

hormone and anabolic signaling pathway

to ensure that you and pack on some

muscle

>> while you are in on average kotic state

which is very very hard to do otherwise

I don't do that anymore cuz it's just

too much brain damage frankly

>> well that's a lot to think about that

becomes a full-time job is the protocol

becomes the full-time job

>> yeah which is not the point right in my

case I'm sure in your case like the

protocol is in service of life

>> life is not in service of the protocol

>> the protocol is supposed to work for you

you're not supposed to work for your

protocol and I mean we're not going to

be labor at this point but in a world

and people there's a great Chuck Palanic

quote that I don't want to get wrong

people can look it up but basically says

you know big brother isn't watching you

he's entertaining you like entertaining

you to death and like just talking about

the sort of modern digital ecosystem and

the role of technology etc but suffice

to say if you can single task for 4

hours from a competitive advantage

perspective

>> not using pharmaceutical grade you know

psycho stimulants

>> you're in an elite group

>> you're in absolutely elite group and you

absolutely can do it with proper health

and exercise disciplines.

>> And also I'll just say to your point

right managing the physiology had a

great conversation with Dave Bazooki

recently who's the co-founder and CEO of

Roblox and he and his wife are the

largest well their foundation is the

largest funer of metabolic psychiatry

research including ketogenic therapy

which includes Chris Palmer at Harvard.

>> That stuff's super interesting. tois for

me it is like taking medapanyl and all

of the kind of short-term powerful but

long-term penalty drugs that I've tested

over.

>> Have you ever tried if you've ever taken

a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor

an SSRI?

>> I have never taken one for

anti-depression. I have taken what is

similar. It's not exactly an SSRI but I

have used trazadone for sleep.

>> Well, tradone is a monocyclic, right?

It's a really early early generation

antid-depressant.

>> It is effectively a failed

anti-depressant because it put people to

sleep that was repurposed as a sleep

drug is my understanding.

>> Like unisome was supposed to make you

not sneeze and it's a succinate actually

was supposed to make you was an

antihistamin that was repurposed as a

sleeping pill.

>> Yeah, there you go. That is it. But why

do you ask about SSR?

>> The reason I ask that is because a lot

of people will say that they find that a

proper keto diet is better than an SSRI

too for the serotonin effects. Oh yeah,

people should look up Chris Palmer. I

had a conversation with him as well. But

for mood stabilization, mood elevation,

but not in a peak and trough type of

way, I have found nothing better than

the ketogenic diet.

>> That's interesting. So for mood

management, this is fundamental for you.

>> It is without exception the number one

with no close second.

>> So poets take note.

>> Yeah, poets take note. And maybe you

should just we have to revisit this.

People are like, "What is this mad

scientist poet stuff?" You want to just

explain what we're talking about? There

are four affect profiles. And affect

profiles mean the intensity of your

negative and positive emotion.

>> You're born with this. So there are

times in your life when you have more

positive emotionality or more intense

negative emotionality depending on

circumstances. But this is your baseline

state. You can be above average positive

and above average intensity negative

emotion. Those are the mad scientists.

That's me.

>> You have high highs and low lows. all

about it's great or it sucks, you know,

and it's impossible to be married to a

mad scientist. My wife reminded me of

that this morning.

You can be above average positive and

below average intensity negative. These

are cheerleaders. These are the happiest

people. They have some weaknesses. They

tend to be bad bosses because they won't

accept bad news and they can't give

criticism like no bad vibes, man.

>> There are some people who are low low.

They're just low affect people. These

are the judges. They make really good

surgeons. You know that you don't want

somebody to cut you open and go, "Oh my

god." That's not what you want. You want

somebody who's going to be like, "I can

take that out." Or, you know, nuclear

power reactor operators or something who

are really

>> low means low positive, low negative.

>> Low positive, low negative.

>> Got it. Their sine wave is flatter.

>> They're steady, man. I mean, they're not

freaking out about anything. And then

there are those who are low inensity

positive emotion, but high intensity

negative emotion. And these are the

poets.

>> And the poets are the most interesting.

And the reason is because they tend to

be the most creative and most romantic.

>> And part of that is because there's this

research, all neuroscience research is

contested. I should preface this, but

there's a part of the lyic system called

the vententralateral prefrontal cortex

that that is involved in your rumination

when you're depressed.

>> Yeah.

>> Ruminative depression, ruminative sad

depression is a heavy activity of the

vententral prefrontal cortex. You also

use it when you're ruminating on a

business plan or writing a symphony. And

when you're ruminating on another person

because you're falling in love. M and

that's why poets tend to be depressive,

creative, and romantic.

>> Tim Ferrris, my friends, this is Tim

Ferrris.

>> That's me in a nutshell.

>> Yeah. And so the whole point is that you

need, no matter who you are, you need to

appropriately manage your mood. The

essence of self-management is mood

management starts with knowledge about

who you are. And they people can go to

my website and take a test and figure

out who they are, which profile you are.

And then you got to figure out what you

need to do in mood management. Do you

need to elevate positive emotion or do

you need to manage? You don't need to

eliminate negative emotion. You don't

want to do that. You'll be dead in a

week. Negative emotion is really

important for protection.

>> Sadness, anger, disgust, fear, but you

want to manage it so it's not

disregulating. So it's not exaggerated.

And there are lots of techniques for

doing it. But you got to know what your

bigger challenge is by knowing yourself.

Then you can proceed to some of these

protocols that we're talking about here

for appropriate mood management based on

your challenges is how it works for you.

It's managing positive up and managing

negative down. And ketosis is really,

really good for both. Yeah, I would say

for folks who may fit the profile or who

are curious about my personal experience

that repeatedly, I mean, I've done this

now dozens of times, it is very

consistent, it completely removes the

lowest 50% of my negative and bumps my

positive baseline up 20%. This is really

interesting because this might be the

poet's protocol.

>> Ketosis might be the poet's protocol for

me. It's what I eat, how I administer

caffeine, and it's actually how I do my

exercise when I'm super fasted first

thing in the morning is incredibly

efficacious for managing down my

negative a effect without accidentally

managing down my positive affect. I want

to point out another thing about your

protocol, which is by having caffeine

later, this is my experience because I

love caffeine. I love stimulants. have

to be very careful. I know

>> if I start later, guess what? What a

incredible slight of hand trick. I

consume less. Why? Because I started

later,

>> right? And no crash.

>> Yeah. And so I will start later and your

total caffeine will be less. Why is this

relevant? Because the halflife of

caffeine is very long. And if you have

too much caffeine early in the day, even

if you stop by noon, it will still

impact your sleep, sleep architecture

and so on.

>> Yeah. And the older you get, so the

halflife, the metabolism of caffeine, it

changes over the course of your life and

the halflife extends. One of the things

that I find for friends of mine who are

like me in their 60s and they'll be

like, I'm sleeping. I sleep like crap

because I'm old. I was like, "Ah,

probably because you have the espresso

after lunch." And when you were 30, you

could metabolize the caffeine

effectively. The halflife was probably 8

hours and now it's probably 14 hours. Y

>> and it's still in your system bothering

you when you're trying to go to sleep at

night. Take out that after lunch

espresso. Move your caffeine. Stop

drinking caffeine after 8 or 9 in the

morning. It's like magic.

>> Yeah, it is incredible. I reserve

coffee, caffeine, like a nitro cold brew

for days like today.

>> Yeah.

>> And then otherwise I'm using yerba mate

or cacao or puert tea or some

combination thereof.

>> You like your mate? You like how it

makes you feel? I love it.

>> It's very smooth.

>> I love it.

>> It's a smooth buzz as we used to say in

high school.

>> It really is the smoothest of the

smooth. It's just also the most

inconvenient. I like to drink it the

Argentine way with

>> the wood the wood cup and the metal

straw that gets really hot.

>> Exactly. Which is probably a great way

to give yourself throat cancer. Side

note, or mouth cancer, but we'll find

out.

>> Yeah, we'll find out. Track the RGs.

They're people are looking at that very

closely. All right, we probably should

talk about the meaning of life. Small

topic.

>> It's just a little thing, you know, and

it's what I've been thinking about for 5

years. I want to know why after your

many books, author of 15 books, right,

you have build the life you want,

co-authored with Oprah Winfrey, from

strength to strength, which was my first

introduction to your books, which is an

exceptional book, finding success,

happiness, and deep purpose in the

second half of life. And now, the

meaning of your life, finding purpose in

an age of emptiness, why write this

book? When I came back to academia, I

was gone for a long time. I'm a sort of

a lifelong I'm a third generation

academic actually. My dad was a

professor. His father was a professor.

This is the vortex of life. I tried to

escape it by by being in music all the

way through my 20s. But it sucked me in,

right? This was my natural habitat. But

I left for almost 11 years cuz I was the

CEO of a big think tank in Washington DC

called the American Enterprise

Institute. And when I was gone, I wasn't

paying attention to academia. I left at

the end of 2008. I came back in 2019. My

memory of my academic experience going

back, you know, intergenerationally,

it's the happiest place in the world.

Everybody has the best time in college.

They make all their friends. They get a

bunch of adventures. They get exposed to

weird new ways of thinking. People loved

college. And most people say I was

happier in college than when I left

college. I come back in 2019 and it's

like the plague had gone through my

village.

>> It was completely different. And in

point of fact, clinical depression among

adults under 30, especially highly

educated adults under 30, college

graduates, especially elite colleges had

tripled.

>> Clinical depression up by 3x. Anxiety,

generalized anxiety, 2x. And it's not

because of a lack of therapy. On the

contrary, the number of therapists has

gone up by about 4x.

>> Yeah.

>> And so something's not working. This is

what we call in my business a

psychoggenic epidemic which is a simple

idea with fancy words because that's how

we get tenure. And what it means is

there's something that's contagious

>> and creates suffering and has no

biological origin, no known biological

origin. That's a psychoggenic epidemic.

So eating disorders and cutting and many

things, they'll spread around, create

tons of misery, but they're not

biological in origin. And so those are

harder nuts to crack. the depression,

anxiety epidemics that we see today are

are psychoggenic. And so we need to

understand what's behind them. And so

when I see the data, I mean, I set about

my research agenda saying, "Okay, what's

going on?" And that's a kind of a

Sherlock Holmes kind of a a forensic

behavioral science experiment. And

that's kind of how I do my work. That's

the most interesting things to do is to

figure out this mystery using the tools

or my stock and trade, you know, I

suffered through to get my PhD, you

know, applying them a little bit. And

one of the things that I do is I just

start talking to people and doing a

content analysis of what they tell me

and see the words that start to pop up.

Those are the clues, right? Because the

words will start popping up. And when

you do that, the word that kept popping

up again and again and again was, "I

don't know what I'm meant to do. My life

feels meaningless."

>> And sure enough, when you do the survey

work and ask people if their life feels

meaningless, that's the predictor of

depression, anxiety.

>> And so we have lots and lots of data out

there. I mean, lots of pop arguments

about why, you know, so many young

people are depressed today. And, you

know, people my age are like, cuz

they're entitled babies and they're not

tough enough. And people who are my kids

age who are in their 20s, they'll say

it's because boomers wrecked everything

and made houses too expensive and

spoiled the environment or something.

>> But people have been saying that stuff

forever. There's nothing new about that.

These psychological effects that we're

seeing are new. They're really, really a

new thing. So, that's not it. or there's

a lot of people and you've talked a lot

on your show about technology and a lot

of people say that technology is

screwing us up and technology really has

a big role in what I found but the

problem is not the technology per se but

what we're not getting because of the

technology is what we're actually

missing what is it actually that we want

that we're not getting you know when you

when you have somebody who's deeply

malnourished

>> you don't talk about what's actually

creating the malnutrition you might

that's important but what they're not

getting Right. It's like, okay, you're

eating all carbohydrates.

>> Yeah.

>> It's not that carbohydrates are

inherently bad, but the dose makes the

poison. And by virtue of only eating

carbohydrates, you're not getting any

amino acids that you eat.

>> The problem is the protein you're not

getting for Pete's sake is what it comes

down to. So, I wanted to find the

protein that was underneath this whole

thing. And the content analysis of these

interviews is like

>> what I meant to do. Life feels

meaningless. I don't know the meaning of

life. And I'm like, that's too big.

That's too big. That's like a big

philosophical thing, but I couldn't

avoid it is what it came down to. So

over the past 5 years I've been writing

a book about okay what is the meaning of

life where do you find it and how do you

have to live differently so that you can

actually find it in modern life and

that's what this book is and the most

interesting part of this was people say

where do you find the meaning of life

like church the beach Italy Italy and it

turns out that we trend New Jersey

>> no offense to Trenton I've spent a lot

of time there my hometown

>> we know where you go to find it and then

you have to do certain things. You know,

I'm a very protocols guy. And so what

this book is, the six protocols for once

you know where the meaning of your life

is,

>> what you have to do to go there and get

it is what it comes about. So the

beginning of the book is okay, what's

the meaning of meaning cuz it's too big,

>> right? It is big. It's

>> too big. The second is where do you find

it? And the third thing is how do you

have to live differently? That's what

this book is.

>> Well, let's start with definitions.

That's how I like to roll. So

>> I know and that's the most important

thing that scientists almost never do.

you know throw out a term and then not

define it. So the meaning of life has

been you know discussed forever

>> but the best philosophical and

psychological definitions they

disassemble it into its component parts.

So the way that you and I have talked

about happiness in the past is that

happiness is a combination of enjoyment,

satisfaction and meaning.

>> So meaning is a macronutrient of

happiness. And when that's missing

that's why you have a happiness problem.

So that's the beginning of this whole

thing. Meaning in turn has

macronutrients has component parts to it

as well. Psychologists will refer to

them as coherence, purpose, and

significance. Coherence is why things

happen the way they do. You have to have

a theory of why things happen the way

they do or you won't know the meaning of

your life.

>> Meaning how life or why life you the way

it un things are happening like why.

>> So is that picking

>> I don't want to dislocate the sharing of

the three but just just to maybe we'll

come back to it. is that coming up with

or adopting a story that is enabling.

>> Yeah, it's adopting a story that

actually explains things so that life is

not inherently random.

>> Okay. But it doesn't need to be

objectively accurate explaining.

>> It's your way of seeing things. It's

your your understanding of the world.

It's putting things in context and so

things kind of make sense.

>> Otherwise, it's this random walk through

life which is a sort of a definition of

meaninglessness.

>> For some people, the model, which is an

imperfect model at best, but it's a

model nonetheless. It's a physics that

explains that is religion.

>> Mhm.

>> For some people it's pure on science.

For some people it's conspiracy theories

why things happen the way they do. But

those are different sort of models that

explain this. Now you can also have a

hybrid model which I do. You know

religion and science and all this kind

of good stuff. But you got to do the

work to figure out the physics of that.

Why things happen the way they do.

>> So coherence

>> that's coherence

>> is figuring out why do things happen in

my life? Why do things happen the way

they do? you know, why are things

happening all the time?

>> The second is purpose. And people often

think purpose and meaning are the same

thing. They're not. Purpose is a

subcomponent of meaning. It is why am I

doing what I'm doing?

>> You know, why am I doing all these weird

things every single day that has to do

with goals and direction? If you don't

have goals and direction in your life,

everybody has said this. I mean, there's

like Napoleon Hill said this and Dale

Carnegie said this.

>> You got to have a an end point. In

Spanish, there's a great word called

elbow. Grumbbo means in English it

doesn't have a lot of significance. It's

a navigational term that means rum line

which is where you're going. It's the

uklidian path from where you are to

where you're going.

>> And you have to have a rum line if

you're going to make any progress.

You're going to have any goals in any

direction is what you need to have. It

doesn't mean that you have to be

linearly making progress. But you have

to have an idea of what that line might

be. That's elbow.

>> Even if the endpoint changes.

>> Exactly. That's why you need an

intention. And that's what purpose is

all about. Mhm.

>> Why am I doing what I'm doing is the

second why question. The why part is

really important as we'll see in a

second.

>> The third is significance, which is why

does my life matter? Why does my life

matter? And if the answer is it doesn't,

that's a problem. Or I don't know,

that's not good enough. People need to

have a concept of why your life matters.

And the great ways of answering that

question are having kids and being

married and you know believing that God

loves you and all kinds of ways to have

that significance question answered. In

my work in the book there's a test on

where you are in the journey to

answering those questions. How close you

are, how much you're looking. And so

that's presence and search. If you're

looking looking like you're a searcher,

you're total seeker. So your search

score is going to be through the roof.

>> My finding score may not be as

>> well. That presence that's presence,

right? And what happens over the course

of life is that people who search more

they tend their presence score tends to

go up but it might not be that high. So

my presence score is very moderate.

>> Could you explain this just one more

time for me? Could you just start that

over?

>> So there's two ways to kind of measure

where you are in this journey of finding

meaning of searching and finding for

meaning. The two ways to do it are

what's called search and presence. Mhm.

>> Search is how intensively you're looking

to answer these why questions. You know,

why do things happen the way they do?

Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why

does my life matter? Right. That search.

And some people are intent seekers like

you, Tim. You're an intent seeker.

>> This show is an exercise in search.

>> Yes. And part of it is because this is

not just a new hack for getting better

biceps. This is a new way of trying to

understand why why we're alive.

>> That's what the show is kind of the

theme of the show. It's why I listen to

the show. This is why I learn things

because I'm a seeker too.

>> But then how successful you are is your

presence. Search and presence. Presence

is I have answers that are satisfactory

to me.

>> As you get older, if you seek, your

presence score should go up.

>> And mine certainly has.

>> So is a presence the presence of

meaning.

>> Make sure I'm understanding. One is

seeking an answer

>> and then presence is accepting.

>> Having something is satisfactory.

>> All right. Got it.

>> Is having satisfactory. There's some

people who have skyhigh presence scores

and really low search scores. Those are

people who like those fortunate

individuals who are born going, "Yep, I

know. I know. I'm not going to leave my

hometown. Why am I going to leave my

hometown? It's awesome here." Right?

What do I need to do? I'm going to marry

my high school sweetheart. I'm going to

work in my daddy's business and I'm

going to go to the church I grew up in.

And they're very, very stable. We think

of these as conservative individuals,

dispositional conservatives. They tend

to have low search and high presence.

>> Right? And to be clear, this is not

>> this is not political.

>> Political.

>> It might be, but that's not really the

point, right? I'm talking about

dispositional conservatism is conserving

good things that preceded you.

>> Mhm.

>> And why are they good things? Cuz they

give you meaning of life is kind of what

it comes down to. On the other hand, you

might be somebody who's a seeker,

seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker. And you

don't find it very much. And I'm I'm

very moderate in presence. It's higher

than it used to be. My presence of

meaning was in the cellar when I was in

my 20s for sure. and in my 60s is much

much higher for sure. But it's still not

you know what do you attribute the

improvement to is being alive and

actually searching a lot and looking at

data and optimizing and trying to live a

life on purpose is self-managing. I mean

I'm a behavioral scientist because I

want answers and I want answers for me.

I'm looking for the biggest questions to

answer to at least address the biggest

questions of my life. That's why I do

what I do for a living. Mhm.

>> My life is an experiment a pure on

revolving adventure. So I'm curious if I

can just interject for a second about

the the present piece specifically

because I think many people listening to

the show will selfidentify as seekers,

>> right?

>> But there are traps along the way

>> as you identify as a seeker.

>> And I talk about these in the book.

Yeah. And I'll just tell one quick

anecdote and then I I'd love to hear how

you have improved or whether it's just

been not a passive but something that

has unfolded for you. The presence piece

specifically. I remember talking to a

very very experienced

psychedelic therapy facilitator who's

who's been doing it for many decades,

thousands and thousands of different

people in sessions. And they told me a

story which they said is is common and

becoming more common that people will

come in and after their session they'll

say yeah I was experiencing so much joy

this beautiful light this love in the

session but I kept wondering when I was

going to do the real work like when I

was going to do the hard work

>> and the way the facilitator explained it

was in a sense more and more so she's

running into people who are in pursuit

ude of this durable

contentment, satisfaction, joy. But when

they experience it in these sessions,

they're like, "Yeah, get this out of the

way so I can do the hard work to reach

the joy." But they're just pushing aside

all the joy. Yeah.

>> As they continue their endless seeking.

>> They're just not going to take yes for

an answer.

>> Right. So, I'm wondering how you learn

to take yes as an answer.

>> It's not easy because when you're a

chronic seeker, there's always something

more. There's always something new and

you can't be there yet. The answer to

this actually comes two of my kids are

Marines.

>> And so I have one enlisted Marine, I

have one officer in the Marine Corps and

my daughter's a second lieutenant in the

Marine Corps and she's right now she's

in Quanico and she's going through the

basic school, you know, getting ready to

do her her MOS. She wants to be a

signals intelligence officer. My son was

enlisted. He was a scout sniper. He was

in a scout sniper platoon at a camp

Pendleton. And that's a super

interesting and dangerous job as a

non-commissioned officer. He led a lot

of guys. What they train Marines to do

in leadership is to get to 80% knowledge

and then choose and stop looking.

>> Mhm.

>> Now, that's really, really important

because you're going to be paralyzed if

you're trying to get to 100% knowledge

going,

>> which is what the pure seeker mentality

does. If you want to seek and get higher

presence, you need to go to 80%.

>> Now, how do you get to 80%. You get to

80% by saying, "I'm pretty sure this is

right

>> and this is right enough that I'm going

to turn my attention to another

dimension. on this. And that means

friends, if you're in love, you should

get married. That's what that means.

>> Wow.

>> That means if you're in love and you

know each other and you think that

within 3 to 5 years, you really could be

best friends.

>> Yeah.

>> And you have a certain stability of

values, stop looking.

>> Yeah.

>> Get married. Why? Because the longer you

don't get married, the longer you're in

search for your soulmate, the more

you're putting off the best thing in

your life. You're postponing the best

thing in your life. Marriage is the best

thing in life for most people. I mean, a

bad marriage is the worst thing in life,

right? But for most people, this is the

for men and women. All this fiction

about the fact that marriage is good for

men but bad for women. It's all

nonsense. Brad Wilcox's research at

Virginia is completely clear on this.

It's better for everybody. Being in love

and living with the person with whom

you're in love for the rest of your life

is great, but you're not going to get

that if you're trying to get to 99%

awareness. M if you're going to search

all the way to the point because you'll

never get that. You're going to have an

argument. You're going to have a

disagreement. You're going to have

doubts. You're going to digest something

in a weird way and think maybe I'm not

in love.

>> And the same thing is true with your

faith.

>> What am I going to practice? Get to 80%

awareness and choose and then decide

that that's what you're actually going

to do. Use the marine rule of

leadership. And then the search can

actually lead to presence. This is all

interesting terrain which is why I was

looking forward to this conversation.

>> There's a lot.

>> It's a lot. And of course, as I said

before we started recording, I was like

we are not going to suffer from a lack

of topics to talk about. I want to come

back to the coherence, purpose,

significance, macronutrients of meaning

for a moment. Just in quick review,

coherence why do things happen in my

life, right? Having a story for that

that you commit to in a sense.

>> Why am I doing what I'm doing? That's

purpose. And then why does my life

matter significance? Looking at my peer

group, my friends, a lot of people in my

audience, it seems like number three,

why does my life matter is where people