This is a Global Player original

podcast.

>> Genius thing about Doctor Who is that if

you're 8 years old, the TARDIS is

designed to appear at the bottom of your

road or on the way to school or in the

schoolyard.

>> So, Doctor Who was there from the very

very start.

>> Yeah. When people say, "Oh, don't sit

your front children in front of the

television." I say, "Nonsense.

Nonsense." In the way, you wouldn't stop

them reading.

>> No, I'm not apologizing. Well, I will if

you want me.

>> How big a propulsion was the backlash?

>> It was more ignored. You'd look in the

papers like what's on telly on Tuesday

night and it wouldn't be there. How did

that make you feel?

>> You bastards. I I've never been more

angry in my life than that. You b the

malice of that.

Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a

podcast project designed to let me spend

more time with interesting people than I

would ever get on the radio. Russell T.

Davies, welcome.

>> Hi. It's lovely to see you. I I mean,

everyone who interviews you must spend a

significant portion of time running

through the CV, but pick favorites. The

second coming

Bob and Rose years and years it's a sin

and imminently by the time people listen

to this tiptoe of which

>> of which more later. Um,

the more I read about you in preparation

for this interview, the more it seemed

as if your childhood had left you with

precious little option but to become

Russell T. Davis.

In what way?

>> A lot of telly and an obsession with

storytelling from a very early age.

>> And a lovely youth theater that brought

me up. Yes. It's like it's Well, it's

not the mouth it goes out of. It's the

brain it goes into. Yes. And um yeah, I

was that sponge sitting there and and I

don't when people say, "Oh, don't sit

your front children in front of the

television." I say, "Nonsense.

Nonsense." In the way you wouldn't stop

them reading. Yes. Um it it was

wonderful for me. My parents had this

kind of strange respect for the

television. They never turned it off. It

was a bit of a temple for them. I think

they kind of

>> and yet they were proper intellectuals

themselves or at least very very

cultured people

>> teachers and house full of books and

magazines and my they both taught class.

My mom was a French teacher really but

they both taught classics and and they

did practical. My father then went on to

become a parapotetic uh careers master.

Okay.

>> So he was really he loved his kids and

he really did a lot to move them on in

life.

>> Yeah.

>> And and that's I mean one of the sort of

earliest building blocks then isn't it?

this idea that there's nothing second

division about television and and if you

want to be a creator,

>> then why wouldn't you use the television

medium given that more people are likely

to see it than pretty much anything

else?

>> I'm with you. And if people say to me

now, we've ever written a film, why

haven't you written a film? If I if I

have an idea,

>> it's four or five episodes long or eight

episodes or 10 episodes. I just don't

think I'll watch a film quite happily,

but I'm more likely to sit down and

watch a television show. I mean, and

even now in this age of the streamers,

I'm I'm there happily watching Antiques

Road Show and through to the quizzes in

the afternoon through to the DAFF shows

at night. I'm still a great terrestrial

viewer. The last

>> is it I'm going to be pretentious. Not

for the last time in this interview, but

is it is it like Dickens preferring to

write in episodic form? So, you like

that self-contained?

>> I'll go with that comparison. I will

seize that. Maybe it is. I know what you

mean. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, yes. And yet,

yeah, serialized but contained. It's

it's I spent a certain amount of time on

soap opers and I love soap opers and I'm

possibly one of the last soap opera

watchers left in Great Britain. I feel

very alone. My friend's mother died of

the age of 82 recently and now I think

the viewing figures of Cornish have

halved down to me. But I'm still there.

I'm still there. Still enjoying it.

>> You see the numbers from the old days.

It is almost unbelievable, isn't it?

kind of figures.

>> Well, I was there in those I was at

Granada in the '90s when Coronation was

introducing Haley by Julie Hel trans

characters, stuff like that. What a

feisty steamy place. It was It was

brilliant. It was an engine of

creativity.

>> It's just won a Tony.

>> Who has?

>> Julie H.

>> Yes. Doesn't she? Yes.

>> She sat in that very chair. Not was it?

Sorry. Amazing. Her first time in the

West End as well.

>> It's beautiful. Isn't that amazing?

>> It is. Um, so Swansea, early 60s, happy

home, son of teachers. Yeah,

>> it it all sounds very very sort of

secure.

>> Yeah.

>> Comfortable and happy.

>> Yes, it really was.

>> So, an interviewer's nightmare.

>> Exactly. It was a big old comprehensive

school I went to. 2,300 pupils. That was

a

>> a farm or a factory. That's ridiculous,

isn't it? 2,300. It was at 4:00 that

bell would ring and it was like

>> it was like wilderbe. It was like the

wilderbeast in the Lion King storming

out of that place. So, I kept That's not

the I mean, I'm not weaving a tale of

tragedy here. It's not the happiest

place to be a young gay boy in the 70s

and when you kind of awareness of your

gayness is growing and that's the last

place you're ever going to say it. So um

yeah that's hardly suffering though the

whole generation. Many generations have

lived with that.

>> Well and and home was always a sanctuary

from that as well. So you I mean that's

a sort of positive isn't it? Is that

you'd never have you could go and I know

when you came out your parents took it

very um

>> Oh yeah. And it was a place of reading

of joy. I used to draw a lot as well. I

was Yeah. Loved it.

>> Your your dad was the storyteller I

think of the pair.

>> Yes. Especially when drunk. He was like

he was a great one of the great

after-dinner speakers of all time. It's

like you know when when we had to go to

a wedding or something and dad was

giving a speech, we'd all be like, "Oh,

great.

>> Off he goes." Literally.

>> What would you feel sitting there

watching that being your dad? That

element.

>> I kind of loved it. We all look forward

to it. It's like we had to go to a rugby

club dinner or something and he was on

the menu and I'd see him for it's where

I kind of learned hard work. I mean me

and my sisters have come out of this

with some mad work ethic. We all work

ourselves to death and you look back now

at this age going where do we get that

from then? And and it was my mom and

dad. It's like they were very very very

hard workers. If my dad had an after

dinner speech, I saw the two weeks

beforehand of him rehearsing it and

looking up books and chasing down

anecdotes before the internet. you know,

you'd have to go look at books and

research stuff and play music that would

have take lyrics off things like the

proper hard work that went into a

speech. Yeah.

>> So, you're you're absorbing at a rate of

knots and I think very very early you

started

creating as well. You started

>> I suppose I was always drawing. That was

my very first It took me a long while.

It took me into my 20ies to realize that

I wasn't going to draw.

>> Okay.

>> I was going to write. The difference

between the two is is is

>> But would you not draw things with

words? Yes, I was doing little strips to

myself and it's very weird. I recently

uh I used to do theater posters for the

Sherman Theater in Cardiff in my in my

20ies. I do the Christmas shows and I

don't know if this is interesting, but I

recently had to redraw them. Did Mr.

Toad, I did a Emperor's New Clothes. I

did all these characters and I recently

had to redraw them. And

maybe you have to see this, but all I

had to do was look at those posters and

I recreated them exactly. It's like they

were in my hand. It's like the memory of

those drawings was in my hand. And I

once I finished the drawing, I looked at

every proportion was correct. After 40

years of characters I hadn't drawn, like

Mr. Toad with his bow tie and stuff like

that, I looked at the modern drawing. I

looked at the old drawing and I was

like, it's like I traced it. Isn't that

strange? I find that. But then I

thought, well, actually, you never

forget a tune, do you? It's how much is

that related that these things stay in

you?

>> It's like a muscle memory. I had no idea

it was that deeply ingrained until I did

the drawing and I was like, "Wow."

>> Why did you Why Why did you decide what

happened in your early 20ies? Did you

just realize there wasn't much of a

career in this?

>> Yes. Hard to do. And I was told I was

mistakenly told by a careers teacher

when I was about 16 that I couldn't get

into graphics or graphic design because

I was color blind. I'm just a bit red

green color blind. That's all. And she

went, "Oh, no. That's that's the whole

world of I love magazines. I was really

determined to go and work in magazines.

I still love and the last Byron

magazines and there were soap opers and

there were terrestrial television and

magazines. They will have to sweep me

away in the end.

>> Park your penny far outside.

>> Exactly. And um so I was determined to

and so that changed a path a great deal

and and and Yes. And then eventually I

kind of worked out I was writing really

>> because you do your own comic strips and

this this I think probably more at

primary school than secondary school.

They would become an event for other

children in the class.

>> Oh, second. Oh, the cartoons. No,

secondary school as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It was when I could really start

to draw. I mean, it's primary school.

You just do explodes through. Uh

secondary school, I was properly doing

cartoons. Yeah. They get passed around

and the teachers would read them when

they go into the school magazine. It was

caricatures. The teachers in there.

Yeah.

>> What would they be about?

>> They were kind They were kind of like

Doctor Whoy adventures, but much more

cartoon strip. They weren't proper

Marvel type comics. They were more

asterisks. I loved asterics. I still

love asterics to this day. Um much more

cartoony, much more knockabout. Uh, so

Doctor Who was there from the very very

start.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Literally one of my first memories of

seeing William Hartull regenerate. Um, I

had no idea what was happening, but I

can. It's missing from the archives, but

it's there in my head. I've got it. I

literally remember.

>> Is it actually missing from the arch?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That episode's gone.

They think someone nicked it.

>> It was sent to Blue Peter once to them

to make some clips and it was never sent

back. It's

>> just amazing, isn't it?

>> Ah, someone put it in their bag and

walked out.

>> So, that was that. I mean cuz obviously

it's a show with which you are very

strongly associated but but it it was

this is what I meant at the beginning by

saying it there's so much that appears

to have been preparation for only the

life that you could have led.

>> Yes. Do you know I read a thing once

that said and it might not be true but

it's fascinating that you will have had

every idea you will ever have by the age

of 16

>> and you spend the rest of your life

coming to terms with that

>> and that's interesting. Do you buy that?

It's nonsense. But

>> but yeah, I look at my life and I go,

well, that's Doctor Who and also that's

gay stories. That's what else was I

thinking up to the age of 16 was gay.

Gay gay gay secretly. And what have I

written since? Gay gay. So this there's

something in I keep coming back to that

thought. It's not as mad as it looks.

>> What was it do you think about Doctor

Who that grabbed you so powerfully?

>> I wonder. And maybe I keep writing it in

order to find that answer. I still don't

know. I still think it's beautiful and

unique. I think I think it's all the

things that it's not. Yes. And I

actively didn't like Star Trek because

that's the military because that's

joining up in putting on a uniform. And

in in Star Trek and I I do love the

modern Star Trek. I've come to terms

with it now eventually. But um but

actually you have to have

>> a job. It's a job. Also, you have to be

the best to be on board the Enterprise.

Whereas actually to get on board the

TARDIS, you just have to be good and

nice. You have to be lovely to get on as

opposed to you have to pass all your

exams with. So, it's a very it's very

very different worlds. And so, my heart

went to the one that was just free. And

also, the genius thing about Doctor Who

is if you're 8 years old, you can

imagine that TARDIS landing at the

bottom of you. Don't imagine the

Enterprise sailing over your house. You

don't. It's not going to happen. No, of

course.

>> The TARDIS is designed to appear at the

bottom of your road or on the way to

school or in the schoolyard or on that

mall or on that next to that gate and

you walk in. It's a beautiful idea. So,

so, so there's no COD psychology in play

here because your child, because your

home life was was so warm and happy, the

the escapism is is a positive. It's not

it's not a desperate attempt to get away

from your reality. It's just an

augmentation of your reality in a way.

>> Not at all. Absolutely. It's funny. You

spend a lot of time at when you first

start to write, you feel that incredible

pressure of not having suffered as a

child

>> which we snobby about that. Talk about

Snowbies. It's it's like it's it's it's

like oh um how dare you how dare you

have an opinion on the world if you

haven't suffered. And then actually all

all you have to do is is to find the

areas in which you have not suffered but

which been had an interesting life which

is mostly being gay

>> and um and and my god have I mind that.

Stop please someone stop me.

>> Yeah. Well except that it's a the mind

keeps changing doesn't it? Because in

true

>> in the new show there's there's and I'm

conscious of not wanting to give too

much away. Um, but in the new show, the

the moment in episode one when the

reason behind the title comes, I'm going

to well up just talking about it. The

>> the idea that the the gay experience and

and somewhat in somewhat implausibly I

spent quite a lot of time on Canal

Street in the early '9s.

>> They still talk.

>> You still owe them money. Actually,

>> get that quite often. And in a way, and

and correct me if I've got this wrong,

but tiptoe is used. The way it hit me

and the reason why it hit me so hard was

because it is almost been offered up as

the opposite of pride.

>> Yes. I'm I'm I love you. You've you've

understood the title from those opening

images, which not everyone does. And

when you go to episode five, you really

you really really get that that is the

title that happening right there in

front of you.

>> Um that it really is on tiptoe. And

that's interesting. the opposite of

pride. I just think yes. And and and and

that just it just rose up in me. I just

had to write this because look, you deal

with the world on your shows and and the

way we're heading and and that's what I

listen to and it's it's the one thing

one thing I like about being gay. Well,

I like a lot of things about being gay,

but that I like how automatically

politicized we are because our lives and

our sex lives and our physical lives and

our identity are constantly being

debated and elections are being fought

on the strength especially in America on

the strength of who we are and how we

are. And it's like and and more that's

happening here as well. So, it's like

you can't you can't help but stay in

touch with what's going on simply by

being part of a queer community. It's

like we are under debate and and being

judged constantly. So,

>> and in a dark place.

>> And in a dark place, and I do think it's

getting darker. Absolutely.

>> As the character Melba sort of puts it,

and so Alan [ __ ] is at this point in

proceedings, he's a much more upbeat

>> Yes.

>> character. And and Melba just

essentially says, "History has not

taught us that it all comes out in the

wash. History has taught us that we're

we're, pardon my French, but we're

potentially fucked."

>> Well, here we go again. And I said this

in um I did a show called Years and

Years where I sort of said, "Remember in

the old days when we talk about pigs

getting elected as mayor and and and and

and Caligula married a horse and the

horse as part of the Senate. You think,

"Here we go."

>> Yeah.

>> This is where we're heading. They

weren't any they weren't they weren't

any less human than us. Those people who

did those things, they were us.

>> Yeah. And and that whole it couldn't

happen here thing just gets chipped away

at the other side of the Atlantic or

chipped away to the point of

obliteration. And now the chipping here

is is

>> I do think I go back to my mama down

those classics books.

>> Yes. about the fall of civilization

because if you read about Greek and

Roman stuff, you read about

civilizations that have fallen, gods

that have gone and I think that's

steeped in me.

Second moment of conscious pretention

then cuz I interviewed Ian his during

the immediate aftermath of Brexit and I

was hoping he would provide me with

sucker and comfort and and and tell and

he kind of did and I said, "How do you

stay optimistic?" And he said, "I go

back to the classics and and I remind

myself that it has all happened before."

>> Yes, I get that.

>> So, it's not unique and it's not

unprecedented and it will end. This too

shall pass.

>> Well, it but it could be over hundreds

of years if not 500 years. And I

remember

>> that's the downside.

>> I remember great commentators like Cat

Moran, I love Cat Moran, fine writer

when Trump's first election doing

writing a really positive piece saying I

think this is the end of an era. I think

this is the last great shout of these

men. And here we are with the shouting

getting louder and stronger and I'm and

and I I think oh my god um if someone as

wise as that is wrong help us.

>> Um did your intelligence emerge? I mean

I I don't imagine anyone was

particularly surprised to discover that

you were bright but was it recognized

early?

>> It was in in a house full of teachers to

be honest. Yes. Um yeah, I went to a

great big comprehensive school which um

I remember a teacher there, very wise

and clever teacher called Iris Williams

there saying the problem with a school

like this is that uh the intelligent

kids are taught to be quiet

>> and that you don't put your hand up.

That's true of a lot of schools, but

certainly school in my Vegas. It's like

if you knew the answer, you didn't say

so. And she then it was good to have

that pointed out to you at the age of

14, 15 like and she wasn't saying stick

your hand up. Uh but she was she was

saying we notice.

>> Oh gosh, that is a really important

intervention.

>> Absolutely. It was very very good. And I

had a good dad as well because it's like

um he was very much he was a great

sportsman. He was huge in Welsh rugby.

He was chair captain of Swansea,

chairman of Swansea rugby club, life

chairman of Swansea rugby club at one

point. So of course every games teacher

wanted me to be a rugby player and there

was a lot of pressure and a lot of

trouble and there just wasn't me at all

and he stepped into that sort of saying

you just go and do whatever you want to

do. I think I went a bit far

>> without without any

>> spinning in his grave. Now we're

powering powering the national grid off

his grave spin

>> but without without any sense of

disappointment then because he he he

loved you.

>> Oh absolutely. He never he never

understood. It's like I I went into

television when I left television to

become a writer in which was right about

1994 and I so I actually gave up the

office job to live live at home and

write. We never told him.

>> He lived for about another 15 years

because he been terrified. Yes. He

couldn't understand a freelance life.

That was literally beyond him you know

in in in in in the do you know when my

dad left the army he was in the first

second world war. when he left, he was

in love with a woman called Margaret

Ratcliffe, I think is her name was, and

from Shortorditch and um and they'd been

together in in the army in Malta. Uh he

had stories about hosing down boats of

Jews to stop them coming into harbor,

you know, and how traumatized he was by

by them, to stop all that. And they fell

in love and a little wartime romance.

And then when he came home and uh she

went back to London and he went back to

Swansea, it was literally impossible for

a Welsh man to marry a Cockney. That was

impossible. She love she traveled to see

him. Be I love you.

>> No, he said I mean these talk about war

damaged individuals as well. But um and

she went she tried and tried and tried.

I love you. And it's like everyone all

his friends lined up and said you cannot

marry a cocknney. That's what a

different world that was. That's the

well he was brought up. So for him then

to have like a son who turns out to be

gay and two daughters who both divorced

and then he had his limits. So me

working from home was the limits of all

the things

>> we finally discovered like never tell

him that that's happened.

>> How do you know that story?

>> Uh he told that story when my I didn't

know that till my mom died and then when

um is when when yeah when when my

mother's mother died she came up with

all sorts of stories about her past.

when when she died, my dad came up with

funny those funeral nights. He came up

with all sorts of family histories that

I've never heard before.

>> You you don't realize how many

dimensions your parents have, do you?

Until some

>> No, I've thought a lot about that woman.

I really hope she was happy. I'm sure

she I'm sure she found someone else and

and and married again. Was married was

happy. But I wonder

>> and what what precisely was it? Because

it wasn't class. Was it just tribalism?

>> Tribalism. Cockney. Yes. Yes, I think it

was class. I think I think did she run a

pub from a pub owner? I made that up.

But um but no, she wasn't posh or

>> we just don't do that. Cockney. We don't

do Cockney was Cockney was an enemy.

It's like Welsh and Cockney. Well, Welsh

English if you're a rugby player is bad

enough anyway.

>> So when Irish I think was deputy head um

I get all my pronunciations or is it

>> which means scrubbing place

>> does it?

>> We were scrubbers in school

with it's withnull and I isn't it? when

he shouts out of the van, we're scrubber

out of the the window of the van.

>> Scrubbers, you you

>> weren't being told by Irish Williams to

to wind your neck in then. She was just

pointing out that she knew you were

clever and that you wouldn't be able to

make a song. If you'd gone to a school

like mine, the opposite would have

happened. You'd have been put on pedest

um they they looked after the clever

kids. They uh I mean out of school of

2,300 pupils

>> they had 15 each year they sent to

Oxbridge which is a big figure

comprehensive figure in the 70s I think

that was unheard of and that and that

was a program she led so well done there

was no you know they were like

>> and she and she was to put you on it

shortly but but before that did you have

a show off Jean then in class did you

did you draw attention to yourself in

other ways

>> gobby I was kind of gobby and saky um

that was my way of kind of surviving it

was rough in in a in in many corners of

that school and um so I was just well I

think there were two it's funny you're

many things um

>> yes

>> uh cuz a friend they Alan Yento did a

documentary about us which was very nice

and there were a lot of people going oh

Russell's so lovely and all that sort of

stuff and a friend of mine did an

interview with them which was cut and he

said actually I said how quiet you were

when you were at the BBC how you just

sat there and hardly ever said a word I

thought oh that version of me is true as

well

>> it's interesting he said he said you

were just quiet you just sat in the

office and watched everyone and absorbed

it all and watched what was going. I was

like, was I? And then I thought about

it. I thought, yeah, actually. So, it's

funny. There's lots of

>> Were you waiting for something?

>> I I think I think I I think I think this

is God psychology. Yeah.

>> But I do think

>> I became a writer. Well, I had a writer

shaped brain, so that's just a fact. But

I think I particularly became a writer

when I'm gay at 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18,

19 years old. And so everyone else is

getting pissed. ever us trying drugs and

they're in the kitchens of parties with

crying their eyes out or or having sex

on the lawn and stuff like that and

you're just watching it all just and

sort of pretending to be part of it

going oh yeah like that but actually

just sitting about watching it and

working out why she's not going out with

him and why he's not going out with her

and just finding it all very

interesting. I mean you can watch that

and not become a storyteller but if

you've got a storyteller's brain I think

those are very useful years in which to

soak it all up and absorb it. So I think

I'm quite in that sense. Yeah.

>> So but so you're inside and outside

those stories.

>> Yeah. Yes.

>> You're not like a you're not alienated

or or

>> No. Well, I think you feel outside them.

I think the thing was small violin.

>> Also you couldn't cop off with you

didn't cop exactly. Exactly.

>> Quite a big part of those years

>> and I think well and that's why your

gays go mad in their 20s and 30s and run

around have a lot of sex cuz actually

all all the street people who might

object to that they were doing it when

they were 14. I saw them. It was all

happening.

Um, did did you have an early ambition

to write? I mean, I know you said you

were drawing, but did you did because

I'm conscious of of that. One of the

lines that pops up a lot in these

interviews is is that it wasn't for the

likes of you. I sense that no one ever

would have sat on your dreams, whatever

they were, whether you thought you were

going to be a

>> No,

>> apart from being a freelance, but every

but every other element of the possible

creative life would have seemed both

feasible and viable.

>> Yeah. Well, it didn't seem feasible

because I didn't come from that.

Although,

>> that's the bit. So, that's the

geography.

>> Yes. And when you're living in Swansea,

what I love now is the fact that

television and cinema is more and more

being made outside London. But then it

was all in London to have a job in

>> Little bit in Manchester.

>> Little bit in Manchester. Exactly. And

that's where I ended up going, but a

tiny bit in Cardiff. But in in Cardiff,

you felt like you had to be a Welsh

speaker, which I'm not it's not strictly

true, but it's how it felt. you thought

you'd never get anywhere without being

able to speak Welsh to the extent that

in my 20ies I was even considering

learning to speak Welsh to get on

>> somewhere. So um um so I didn't think it

was vital. So I didn't walk around

saying oh my god I'm going to be a

writer

>> until I did get jobs in television and

then I started to meet writers and then

I just saw that as the most perfect life

and the most wonderful life.

>> I could do that.

>> Yes. Yes. With a strong sense of that as

well. Yes. And a conviction I could do

that. So the youth theater then um yeah

how old were you when you first walked

through the door? I was I must well I

did school plays when I was 11 so I must

have been 12 with the drama teacher who

still lives around the corner from me in

Swansea in her 90s now Cesaly Hughes

gorgeous beautiful

>> you did bottom I think in a midsummer

night stream

>> Swansea my bottom thank you I know I'm

sorry

>> well I can beat that

>> there's a teacher at my school said that

James O'Brien's bottom was the finest

thing to grace the ample fourth stage

since Rupert Everett's Tatania

>> yes but did you do drama This is

>> so why not? I mean, were you not

dreaming of being an actor then?

>> I was. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

>> Um and that was a great great fun. I was

a good actor. I was really funny.

>> Yeah. Clearly. Well, but you don't they

didn't give bottom to anybody.

>> But

those years were yet to come. But um I

should say too to then be growing up

being friendly with people who were

going to become actors 16 17 18 at that

age 16 17 I realized you had to want to

do it 100%.

>> And I 90% wanted to be an actor but I I

I'm glad I was sort of openeyed enough

to think no

>> and and it was at Glanu Theater that you

started writing for performance as well.

>> Yes, they started me writing there. I

mean it's it I I hold West Morgan Youth

Theater to be the thing that created me

actually and made me and and if you look

at we mentioned before we went on air

about funding in those days West Morgan

County Council used to fund a well the

West Morgan youth theater youth

orchestra which was vast orchestra of

100 plus a youth choir a youth dance

company a youth jazz band calm down

everyone it's like wow all of that

funding and with residential courses

with staff with instructions

All gone. Literally all gone. It's

shocking.

>> It It is. And And I know you do your bit

to to keep

>> you try

>> some bits of it alat.

>> Wonder if Michael Sheen was part of

that. You he does an awful lot to try

and keep it afloat now. But

>> because because I I I return to this

point sometimes because I I didn't need

that experience in order to appreciate

culture. But when I went to Manchester

in 1988 to do Manchester Youth Theater

with actually a few people who've

subsequently popped up in your shows, I

I realized that there were there were

kids there who who were on grants. They

get a council grant to spend six weeks

in Manchester and they they never would

have walked into a theater, let alone

onto a stage.

>> Absolutely.

>> Otherwise, and entire generations.

>> Yes.

>> It's a bit like the theme of tiptoe.

It's as if we are currently in reverse

gear. Not not just in neutral or or

idling the engine. We're in reverse. If

you want, you actually have to have to

sit and explain to people why you want

children to be part of theater and

creativity and media as if it needs

explaining. Anyway, you never have to do

a sport.

>> No.

>> And actually, you're likely to get more

good actors out of a school than you are

to get like England footballers. It's

much more likely.

>> But what a world.

>> Um, so just a quick word then, Russell,

on on on why it is so important because

you weren't unhappy at school. You you

you but your tribe

>> your tribe was a

>> I was quiet in school. That's the I kind

of kept my head down. I was a bit saky,

a bit lippy. I could I wasn't picked on

much by the bullies because I was tall

also. But I remember how tall I was. I

was 6'6 then by the time 16. I was I'm

shrinking now by the time to 6'4. But um

I was properly tall. You get left alone

if you're tall, right?

>> Um you you do just this big willow. And

um but and I just kept my head and that

is a gay thing. Just kept my head down.

did could do the homework deliver was

everyone was happy with the work and

stuff like that but my real self began

to emerge in that youth theater

>> and alongside that thanks to the deputy

head the the the sites are set on

Oxford.

>> Yes. Yeah. It kind of automatically set.

I've got to say I passed the exams and

went there and had a nice time. I look

back and think I could have skipped

those three years. Oh, really?

>> I Well, I I'm in a job where I've never

ever had to give my qualifications. I've

never had to tell anyone my O levels or

A levels or or certainly not my degree.

Never. ever. It's weird, isn't it? They

told us you need those things, but you

really didn't.

>> We never did. Except

>> we were learning along the way actually

in that process.

>> And and also because you'd already found

your theatrical feat, you didn't need

university drama societies, too. Did you

get

>> No, I did all that. I did acting there.

I Yeah, I was once in Rosen CR and

Gilden Stone Are Dead. I was Rose and CR

with Tom Stoppard in the audience.

>> Wow.

>> And Miriam Stoppard. Yeah. Yeah. That

was in the Oxford Playhouse. That was a

nice moment. But but you were sort of

wanting to break into the real

>> I was kind of right. Yes. I put on one

of my own plays there. Play called box I

put on there. So it was starting to tick

away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again I

never believed writing was possible.

>> Right.

>> I tell what what was a great help during

those years was love of Doctor Who

because Doctor Who is more the

behindthe-scenes stuff on Doctor Who is

so fully documented and so open and has

been since the 70s. So with Doctor Who,

you'd be able to read books in which the

writers would say I wrote this, I

created this story, I invented this

robot, I invented the Daleks, did the

which no other program would talk about

that that no the veil was lifted on

Doctor Who. So you would see jobs as

writer, as script editor, as story

liner, as producer like you would on

nothing else. So it's amazing what an

education that is.

>> The anatomy of a production,

>> the anatomy, it showed you ways through

that you could do that.

>> I never would have known that.

>> Yeah. And only Doctor Who had that. And

you have now not just contributed to the

cannon of the shows but contributed to

the cannon of the lift the lid lifting.

open up that. But it's funny. I I was

just doing some behind the scenes stuff

for Tiptoe this morning and they

apologized for something and I said,

"Don't worry, I invented this genuinely

because of the moment we started Doctor

in 2005, it was like open the doors. I

want every magazine. I want everything

on video. I want every personal video

diary. Everything everything on screen."

>> And it helps. It creates it creates the

mind. Again, it's not it's not the mouth

it comes out of. It's the mind it goes

into. And if it goes into your mind and

you are that person, it'll inspire you.

And and the and the more complete the

world is, the more

magical the immersion in it.

>> Yes. The richer experience.

>> The richer the experience.

>> Um all of which makes it a crying shame

that crossroads never happened.

>> Do you know I often think I had a chance

to write crossroads in what was it 19 ah

I can't remember the years but um also

when I was at Granada in the 90s I was

begging

>> 83 by 83. In the '90s then I was begging

to work on Coronation Street and they

were very like the royal family then

it's like we ordained to look upon you

when the time is right. They were like

that and by the time the time is right I

had written queer spoken. I had a sense

of freedom and I'm so glad because I

think I would have stayed on it forever.

>> I think I think I would never have

written all these things if I joined

Coronation Street in 1999. I would have

stayed and I'd be one of those old lags

sitting around the table now and very

happy with a nice regular wage for 30

years but thank god I didn't.

>> Absolutely.

>> Thank God. But but the Coronation

Street, the Coronation Street, the

Crossroads Things was your first um

introduction to the uh the fragile

nature of the industry.

>> My first look around at Drama Studio, I

went they they I wrote a script, sent it

off to them. They said, "This is good."

They brought me up to Birmingham and I

looked around the sets, which were

literally the smallest and shakiest sets

that you could ever possibly see.

>> And um but I kind of realized it was

possible. It was first you know the fact

that they plucked my script off a pile

and said well it's like and well I could

write when I wrote my very first script

which is called Dark Season there was I

mean I've got to I've just got to be

honest there was a bidding war over that

the BBC liked it and ITV liked it and

they fought over it and so you kind of

sit there going oh I can write

>> those moments to go right.

So, what was the first job in telly

then? What was the first?

>> Uh,

>> it was behind the scene. A friend of

mine, I just directed a Midsummer

Night's Dream at the Sherman Theater in

Cardiff. And a lovely woman there called

Jill Reese said, um, there's a job going

at the BBC working with kids on the

studio floor. It was a program called

Why Don't You Switch Off saying, "Go do

something less boring instead." And

which was presented by children. It was

games and puzzles and recipes for the

school holidays presented entirely by

children with no adults. So, it needed

someone on the studio floors and the

director would sit in the gallery and

obviously the studio floor has a floor

manager, but the floor manager isn't

necessarily trained in working with kids

and and giving them instructions. The

floor manager doesn't have to be good at

working with kids. Okay?

>> And also often the floor manager by the

nature of the job will often arrive that

morning and just do the job. They

haven't been in rehearsals or anything.

So, they needed someone who was the

kid's friend on the studio floor who

could and also direct them who could

say, "Look, that bit's not funny. change

this line. Look at the camera here.

Don't look at the camera there. So, I

was I was just the floor director for

the kids, which I loved. I stayed on

that show for about five years. I've

never stayed on a job that long ever

since. But I loved it. It was properly

fun. And you learn everything on that

job as well. You also went on location.

You did all this in the days when you go

on location with film cameras, actual

film, uh 13 16 mm film. And um you go

into the dub, you did the mix,

everything. You can learn everything in

children's time. So it's an

apprenticeship in a

>> a great apprentichip because there's not

enough money in children's so you end up

doing everything which is great

>> and and are you I mean we we were you

conscious of of assembling a machine

that would take you somewhere else.

>> Yes. I loved it the moment I got in

there studio C in in Clandaf in in

Cardiff. I walked in I was like this is

it. That was a big moment for me. The

smell of it I can smell it now. No other

studios ever smelt like that. And I was

just like this is it. That's

oldfashioned. It's old fashioned a

multi- camera studio with the old boom

cameras and all that. You don't have

them anymore hardly. But um Oh, I loved

it. And yeah, that was me thinking,

>> yes, I like this. Yeah.

>> What was the next big moment?

>> The next big moment? Well, actually that

happened on that job where they then

asked me to write the scripts. They got

a sense that I was clever and um I wrote

a script for 50 quid and and then and

then the producer went, "Oh, that's

good. Can you write them all?"

>> And he phoned me old fashioned phone

call me like, "Oh, that's good. Can you

write them all by like by next Friday or

something? I was like, "Yes, of course I

can." An electric typewriter. I had

James. There was such a thing as an

electric typewriter. I sat in my

electric typewriter in

>> in Roth in Cardiff and typed those out

and yeah, that was a great moment of me.

That was me telling myself what job I

wanted to do. It's it was in my hands.

It came out my hands. Yeah.

>> So, you're up and running.

>> Yeah. I could have been I love

directing. Okay. Okay.

>> There was a great moment of like loving

directing and I went on a BBC director's

course where they train you in there and

so you're directing live stuff. You're

directing multi directing bands in

studio. I loved I loved that. I loved

that so much with such intensity that I

gave it up.

>> I thought that's going to consume me. I

was like at 3:00 in the morning I had

camera plans going through my heads

working out where to keep

>> What would have been wrong with that?

>> Well, yes. I obviously had other things

I wanted to do. I thought

>> because I sense you're pretty consumed

by the writing. So it's not the being

consumed.

>> It was it was the room for it. Exactly.

It was things like when I was at the BBC

they said, "Oh god, you're a good

director now. You've trained director.

So will you come and direct record

breakers record breakers? I'd rather

die." Um so point director actually

wanting direct is very different to

getting the right jobs to direct. So I

felt like I thought you're not getting

me. If you think I'm going to direct

record breakers, you can think again. So

you shut that door and and open the

writing door wider

>> and the stories were start and I was

starting to write scripts more and more

and more and those scripts were becoming

proper scripts. Then I wrote my first

draft script which was called dark seas

and then that got commissioned like bang

bang bang.

>> Where does children's world fit into

this trajectory?

>> So during that dark commissioned and I

moved to Granada. Okay. I I was already

being to stick my head above the paramet

going well I was at the BBC making

children's shows which was lovely but in

Manchester half a mile down the road was

that beautiful Granada building that

with a great big granada sign at the top

of it that gorgeous font of that thing

where they were making dramas and

children's shows and Coronation Street

and Cracker and Prime Suspect and it

felt like it felt like I was in the

wrong factory. It felt like I was in the

lunchtime factory and dinner was being

made over there and I was like I want

that dinner. And I started to meet

people there and I just I actually left

my job at the BBC with no job to go to.

God, you're cheeky when you're young,

aren't you? Arrogant. I left it with no

job to go to just saying I will sit on

the D until I get a job in that building

in the Granada building and I think

about two weeks past I got a job

>> and and I mean what pedigree and Paul

Abbert K me I mean Sally Wayne Sally

Wayne rightight of course surrounded by

extraordinary talent.

>> Yeah. My first day's work was to go on

to Children's Ward created by Paul

Abbott and Keller and to sit with them

and the good thing was I already had my

own drama coming up on BBC1. I was

sitting there going, "Yeah, in six in

six months time I've got a thing called

Dark Season on BBC1." So it felt I

wasn't just a kid walking in and they

were immensely respectful of that. Paul

and Kay are just the most delightful

people. Lovely. is no longer with us.

And the help they gave people, the

mentorship, the laughs, the drink, the

fun, just gorgeous people.

>> And a sense for the first time in your

life of being at the center of

everything, being exactly where you

wanted to be.

>> Yes. Loving it. Yes. Absolutely. And and

and learning story lining, the stuff

you'd learn off the soap operas. I mean,

once you come off so there's a lot to

unlearn as well, but glorious. And not

just in your professional life because

of course in your personal life

Manchester Canal Street there Manchester

>> is also the center of or a center of the

univer

>> the first time I started going out

properly but two things happened really

it's like um I didn't go out all the

time because the moment I started

working with all these writers and

realizing how brilliant it was that I

wanted that I knew I wanted to become a

writer. I'd always known that really

except then it became a fact. So

actually what I started to do was save

my money because everyone says to you

you'll be poor you will live in an

attic. It's like when I left the BBC,

the head of children's Anna Hume said,

"You will be poor. It's very hard to get

work as a writer." I said, "Fine, I'll

do that." And so, and think about it in

in the 90s, I saved out of my wage

£20,000. It's a fortune.

>> It is.

>> That's not that wasn't that was my wage.

I just so I hardly ever went out. One

point my friend had to tell me off for

like wearing shoes that were falling

apart because I wouldn't buy new shoes.

I was just saving and saving and saving

for that day when I left so that I could

so that when I left to write full-time I

would never have to fall back on a

daytime job. I could I was £20,000 was

the figure on my head that I could last

for two years and in those days you

could survive £10,000.

Yes, it was my safety net to say I'm

going to go and write that won't be

successful. I won't starve. I've got I

won't it won't be it'll take a while.

So, I don't want to fall back because

I've always there's always a day job in

television that I can go back to behind

the scenes, but I will always be in

demand there, but I don't want to do

that.

>> But, but you did you went out enough to

create a sort of family, a sort of

second family.

>> Yes. At the same time. Yes. Yes. Yes. I

mean, really that was after I was that

was after

>> once I started because having decided I

want to be a writer and and leaving

Granada, I think I worked straight away.

So, actually all that money I saved is

still there. It never got touched, which

is great. Um, you know, I would say that

to any writer, save your money and pay

your tax, be ready for the tax. Um, but

then once I began to think, oh, this is

okay, then I started to go out properly.

There was never then a a a kind of given

the role that Doctor Who plays in your

formative years and and in your later

years as well.

>> In a way, it's not immediately obvious

that you would become so quickly

concerned with with very real life

>> as opposed to sort of fantasy or

>> Yeah. I mean, I know what you mean, but

that's not true, is it? Because we

anyone anyone can love Star Trek and

love politics and love America.

>> Yeah. just wondered whe some people

might have tried desperately to to to

emulate what they had enjoyed.

>> The very first things I wrote were Dark

Season which was like a Doctor Who thing

and then the next thing was called

Century Falls which was uh like one of

those spooky things again a bit Doctor

Whoy but much more supernatural. So that

was the start but at the same time

>> Spring Hill had a bit of supernatural

mystery. Yes, that was the birth of the

antichrist on embarrassing estate. But

at the same time you working with Paul

Abbott, you're working with Kay, Jimmy

McGovern was there, Frank Boyce was

there. So actually and Sally Way is this

great Manchester school. Yeah. Of and

actually it maybe possibly fundamentally

it was K Mela writing Pand of Gold about

sex workers and she made it salty and

rude and dark and violent and fun and

that was remember every it's been

forgotten slightly Band of Gold. It was

a revolution at the time. The fact that

that book could be so successful. That

was a big turning point for me, watching

my friend write that and it being so

amazing and so dark and so so much part

of the real world that we hadn't seen

the lives of sex workers. That's what

Band of Gold was. It was amazing.

>> And and does that take us to the grand

>> kind of that's happening at the same

time? That was one of my learning

grounds where that's like that was like

to be honest I just inherited that.

Right.

>> Um because that's like the Downtown

Abbey of its day except very very very

cheap.

>> But literally the script had fallen

through. They didn't have a writer. They

needed a script in two weeks. Paul

Abbott was there in the office and they

said, "Paul, who can write this in two

weeks?" He went, "Russell Davis."

And I they phoned me. I went, "Yes, I'll

do it." And then ended up on this show

for two years, which I never quite

owned. So it was a bit strange. It

wasn't something I might naturally have

sat down and gone, I'm dying to write

about the 1920s.

>> But you were dying to write about

Manchester.

>> Yes.

>> AIDS.

>> Well, what happened on the ground was it

wasn't working. It never quite worked as

a concept. It was slightly

>> I read that you thought it was all right

after episode 14.

>> Yeah, it was I got it right at the very

last episode. The right person inherited

the hotel at the end. Susan Hampshire

inherited the hotel in the last episode

and you went that's a show and now I can

write it. But but but it was slightly

out of control as a show. it wasn't

being produced very well and it was all

a bit mad and so I had to kind of build

a shell around myself and just write

what I wanted and so I made one of the

characters gay

>> right

>> in 1920 a workingclass 1920 story and

suddenly you find yourself writing

better than I'd ever written before so

you just find your way and I know you're

saying where do these stories come from

and they just they reveal themselves to

you in the end and and and and they're

in your heart the moment I looked into

my heart when I get this I'm not born in

the 1920s obviously But I get being

lonely. I get being closeted. I get

being single. I can write that.

>> And there's Clive.

>> And there's Clive played by Paul Warner

in a wonderful performance. Yeah. And uh

suddenly I'd written something that was

streets ahead of anything I'd ever

written before. And I knew that.

>> And you you knew that.

>> Yes. I knew it. Absolutely. They kind of

try they they didn't like

>> the richness of the character.

>> The truth of it, the richness. It was

very It was clever. It was imaginative.

The structure of it was clever. It

wasn't just gay gay gay, but now it was

it was clever. It was sharp. There's a

twist at the end. That's great twist at

the end. Um, yeah. So, I I was at full

power. I was

>> You're quite fond of a twist at the end,

aren't you, Russell?

>> Yes, exactly. That was my first. I love

that one.

>> Um, that is a very big one coming. Um,

and then and queer as focus just dating

during this period.

>> Yes. I mean, you got to bear in mind

that no one had any concept back then

that that could happen. There's a very

marvelous woman at at Channel 4 called

Katrina McKenzie who'd worked with me on

the ground. She then moved to Channel 4

and then she said, "It's Channel 4's job

to do stuff that's more revolutionary

and more radical. Come and write about

gay life over here." And and her boss as

well, Gob Neil. And that was and

incredibly that hadn't been done.

>> It's amazing to look back. The thing is,

>> but it isn't. It isn't, isn't it? I

mean, it's it's it's

>> I do think I was I do I was part of a

rising tide. It's like that conversation

could have happened with with Jonathan

Harvey, with those women who went on to

make bad girls. I was lucky that I was I

was lucky I got the grand. So I was in

the I was seen. I'd done a gay hour of

TV that really worked. So I became the

man to do it. But um it would have been

someone else if it hadn't been me.

>> They pick it up after I think a 100page

draft.

>> Was it? I forgotten that. Did I say

that? Oh, I wonder. I probably exploded

everything onto the page and then um

>> and it gets I mean it it launches in

February of 1999. This changes

everything for you. I think in every

sense, every imaginable sense.

>> It's life before and life after. Yeah,

I'm sure. Absolutely.

>> Did Did you Did you Did you know that it

was going to explode?

>> No, we honestly thought it would

disappear cuz it was like for starters

it wasn't going to go to 9:00. They said

we put out at 10:00 and then a couple of

weeks before transmission they said it's

going to go out to 10:30. I mean now

these times don't matter to me. It's

hilarious at the time. We lived or died

by the transmission slot. And the moment

they moved it to 10:30 me and Nicola, my

brilliant producers, oh, it's dead like

that. So, so on and and bear in mind how

much people used to take the piss out of

channel 4 back then and well still do to

some extent but you remember how there'd

been a documentary on about duvet makers

in Tibet or something and it was that

was seems like the ultimate show. It was

the channel that showed documentaries

about old women making duvets in Tibet

or blankets or or knitted something or

whatever. So that was it was so I

thought we were in that slot

>> of like oh we're the obscure niche bit

of nonsense. So, we very much felt it

was that until it transmitted and then

that was like, wo.

>> But how good did you think it was in the

way that when you wrote Clive, you knew

it was the best thing you did?

>> I knew it was good. I never had any

doubt about how good.

>> But that doesn't guarantee anything.

>> No. Oh my god. Oh my god. No. No. No.

But um uh I I kind of I know enough

about Gay World to know that it would

always have a niche. If any gay film

comes along,

>> then it's part of the record.

>> You know, it's remembered. And so I

always thought, right, we'd be part of

the record whether you but whether you

sit on the shelf and ging the dust or

whether you're alive or not was and it

was great to see that take off. It was

so exciting.

>> How how how big a propulsion was the

backlash in the takeoff? Do you think

>> it wasn't It's kind of overrated.

>> Yeah, I thought it might have been. Um

it's it's it was more ignored than than

you know you'd look in the papers like

what's on t on on telly on Tuesday night

and it wouldn't be there

>> and it was a new drama on at 10:30 at

night you know you should at least list

it saying it's but it' be amaz

whatever was on

>> how did that make you feel that was

annoying that was worse than annoying

>> yes it was you felt very powerless and

again all these structures were new

there now

>> that happened now some you'd have

systems to complain. I knew who to

complain to, who to sort that out with

immediately. The whole word of PR and

their relationship with the papers is

much more of a system now. Then it was

just like, oh, a big shrug. Like, oh

gosh, oh dear.

>> So, how did you register the fact that

it was going gang busters? Then

>> it was little things. It was the

sponsors pulling out. Remember Beex Beer

pulled out? That was kind of exciting.

That was great. I love that. That was

noisy. Um, apparently the chairman's

daughter was here from Germany and

watched it on her hotel television and

phoned papa papa and said we must pull

out of the show

that I tell you what it was. It was um

there was a protest in Manchester in

daytime to keep the Oldm Coliseum

Theater open or was it the Bolton

Octagon? It was one of those theaters. a

protest in daytime properly organized

with like school kids there and banners

and a march and I went along in daytime

and so uh two of the star two of the

cast of uh querest folk winner not the

leads it was uh Adam Zayn who played one

of the one of their gay mates and

Allison Burroughs who played Stuart's

secretary so lovely actors small parts

admittedly they arrived this bus full of

school kids arrived and the school girls

started to scream over them like

screaming at the Beatles and went mad

head over them and running up to them

and that's when I actually went, "Oh,

something's happening here." That was

really fat. You thought, "Oh my god, all

those girls are watching it." 13, 14y

old goes, "They're screaming when they

see some of the supporting cast and that

was like, okay, that's that's that was

that was great. I loved that moment."

>> What do you think happened? Why do you

think it

>> hit those marks?

>> I mean, those girls were loving it. I I

think I especially love that teenage

girl audience cuz they were just loving

it. They didn't carry the weight of the

politics, the history of TV, the the

repercussions, the consequences, the

weight of it. They were just loving

something cheeky and funny and sexy. And

in a way, that's the best audience. Um,

and and and and there was a lot of pro.

I mean, a lot of the protest was from

the gays who were up in arms about it,

saying, you know, we're seen as drug

taking and and and sex mad and blah blah

blah blah blah. And lesbians were

complaining that it didn't represent

lesbian life. uh put in Esther Hall as

one of the one of the lead lesbians in

it. Um uh so I expected all the gay

protest that surprised me. But things

like

>> then the soundtrack got to number one.

>> Yeah.

>> And you're like it's those things. Hang

on a minute. Yeah. It's those popular

things that the protests don't matter

because that might be 100 people, it

might be a thousand people. It's not

going to be that many people. But when

things to be blunt, when things start

selling, then you're like, "Oh, right.

Okay. That's something. It's nice." and

you can then do not quite whatever you

want next or could you? I mean that's

never quite true because no one ever

wants to give away money but no

>> but but yes and and to be honest that

that queer folk door stayed open even

when last year when I went to channel 4

with tiptoe and bear in mind all the

staff have changed there's no one there

who worked there 25 years ago but even

then the heads of drama at channel 4

said look you make quer work spoke for

us these doors are open to you even then

after 20 and that's immensely kind they

didn't have to do that doesn't mean

they're going to commission it but it

means come in for a meeting and tell us

your idea so they get first look as it

were.

>> They get first look. Exactly. And were

lovely and and obviously liked it. But

and I really appreciate that cuz you

don't have to do that.

>> What's the process? Because I mean we're

in the period of your life now that

people will be familiar with and if

they're not familiar with with you

particularly, they're certainly and they

probably are, but they're certainly

familiar with the work that you've done

and the shows that you've made. So we we

s sort of now you move through um Bob

and Rose and the second coming building

blocks. Then you go to Doctor Who. Yeah.

Then you go to America with the with the

spin-off is not a wrong word to you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. With Torchwood and and and

yet always you've got the the two

when you do when you're thinking what am

I going to do next? Do you think right

now I'm going to do a real life

>> state of the nation piece?

>> See what you mean. like years and years

or do you think oh I really fancy a bit

of

>> I never quite know but it's it's kind of

unplanned and yet some part of me is

obviously planning it. It's literally

whatever bubbles up is in my head and

and clearly when you look at it it's

also contrary

>> I think I think there's something about

do I do queer so folk then I do Bob and

Rose which is about gay man falling in

love with a woman is a lot of gay didn't

like that at all what I did it's sin

>> but why why didn't they because it was I

mean it happened

>> if you want to misinterpret that show

>> then it looks like the gay man was

waiting for the right to come along

>> so it was a bit

>> if you want to impose that reading it

on and that was 2001 when the whole

notion of fluidity Okay.

>> Labels was a lot less the world was a

lot more rigid. But that looking at that

the the when I wrote it's a sin and then

went nolly. I mean who expected me to go

and write about the life of a soap star

from the 1980s having done it to sin?

>> Well I think it was unfinished business

wasn't it?

>> It was exactly it was it's it's a it's a

bit absurd as a change. And now I've

done Doctor Who again and now coming

back to to tiptoe. So I like that. I

like to keep swinging it round and not

quite being my brain likes that. There's

no plan behind that. But some part of me

goes, "Oh, right. Something different

for God's sake."

>> I I mean, it's a sin was a was a Do you

have favorites in your catalog?

>> I I mean, I have to that. Again, that's

kind of life-changing. Yeah. It's It

changed my own life, I think. I mean,

I'm very lucky because

>> I wrote Quest Folk in 1982. You kind of

expect kind of expect to have one big

success

>> but I've had three. I've had I've had

queer folk, Doctor Who, and then you

think it's over and they think, "Wow,

I'll just keep working for the rest of

my life." And then it's a sin comes

along and you're like, "Wow, I got three

tent poles there. I feel like the

luckiest man in the world."

>> I just feel like I've worked very, very

hard for them.

>> Well, yeah. I mean, clearly it's it's

it's almost

Well, it is quite hard to believe the

sheer volume of work that you've done

when you look at the finished products

on

>> screen and acknowledge, you know, that's

the tip of an iceberg, isn't it? Proud.

I'm proud of all those actors I work

with. I think I'm very lucky.

>> Which bring and and you work you like to

come back with the same actors sometimes

as well and bring people back through

again. It's both. He's like, "You have

to come by the same one." And you're

also a tart at the same time. I remember

once I was asking a director, he's like,

"Why haven't you

>> there's a part that would be perfect for

that man you wor with before? Why

haven't you cast him?" And he went,

"David Evans." And he went, "No, I'm a

tart."

>> And he's right. I thought I picked that

up. I was like, "Yeah, you just want to

have the next sensation."

>> So, um, so then we come to Tipto,

another Clive, although he doesn't bear

much for resemblance. His name is I keep

like the name Clive a lot. There was

there was Katherine Tate was going to

marry a Clive in Doctor Who. Yeah. It's

just a I like the I and the V and the

the capital C. I like it on the page.

It's I think it's a nice looking thing.

>> It is, isn't it? It's a shape as well.

Yes, exactly that.

>> And Leo played by Alan [ __ ] Two

actors absolutely on the top of their

game.

And it is

>> I've only watched episode one very

deliberately. Well, for two reasons. No,

no, not I'm not apologizing. Well, I

will if you want me to,

>> but I I wanted to conduct the interview

in that position of of knowing that I'm

now like, "Oh, my giddy arm." Has it

left you? Jesus. Yeah. Well, that's the

second reason is that I don't like I

didn't want to watch all five episodes

sitting down

>> on my laptop effectively with the with

the Channel 4 branding and all the

security gear. I want to watch it with

my daughter and my wife. And I was I

want to start again and watch the whole

thing

>> all the way through. Although I don't

think we'll do it in five sittings. I

suspect there'll be a little bit of um

of speeding up.

>> It's extraordinary from from the very

first scene.

>> Well, that's an opening scene. It's and

and then the acting and then the the

sense that's very quickly established

that this is

>> I mean it's not a play is it but it is

it's it's tough isn't it?

>> No deed goes unpunished in this thing.

Everyone gets it wrong all the time.

Every word goes wrong. Every text goes

wrong. Every phone call goes wrong.

Every every message goes wrong. Every

good

>> deed you could possibly try to do

backfires on you. It's a really really

tough piece of work and it keeps getting

tougher and tighter and tighter and

tighter.

>> It's agonizing.

>> Yes. But I think I also think it's a lot

of fun along the way.

>> Don't get me wrong, it's a huge amount

of fun. I don't cast Alan [ __ ] in

anything that wouldn't be a lot of fun,

would it? David Morrisy is just

>> those two, you know, they're like old

mates. They've known each other for 40

years and never appeared together.

>> How amazing.

>> Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. They

did their first scene together on Canal

Street. We gave them a little round of

applause cuz it was like it was magic

and they were really really moved by it.

That is lovely. What a great moment to

be there

>> because years and years that was was the

state of the world on on

>> this is a bit years and years cross

folk. I think this

>> I'm glad you said that.

>> I almost thought at one point I said

look at the very beginning we could put

up a caption saying next year.

>> Yes,

>> we didn't. But it's it's this what

happens in this is about to happen.

>> It's atomization. It's

>> it's it's atmization. It's the anger

that's rising though

>> and the role that the machines in our

hands are playing.

>> Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. But also

it's like it's in that sense it it's not

particularly a gay drama. You could this

could be a Jewish drama. This could

absolutely be a disabled drama. It's

like I've got a friend who's disabled.

People now knock on her door. Strangers

knock on a door and say I saw you

walking.

>> Right.

>> Strangers knocking on their door. It's

it's the way this online anger is

transferring into the real world. We've

known we've known about the whole death

threat culture for a good 10 or 20

years. And to the extent that we almost

shrug about it, it's like I mean for 10

or 20 years I've been saying a death

threat online is no more serious than

saying, "Oh my god, is religious is that

we just say it." And I think it's

beginning to change now. I think now

people are knocking on doors and turning

up. My husband used to was was was

partly disabled. He had 27 brain he had

seven brain operations because he had

brain cancer. So he used to walk with a

stick. Lads would walk past him in town

in Manchester and say, "You were limping

on the other foot 10 minutes ago."

>> [ __ ] yeah.

>> You bastards. I've never been more angry

in my life that the malice of that

>> unbelievable.

>> So it's it's it's it's it's the crossing

over. It's the dangerous

>> Well, it's the same with the flags and

the marches, isn't it? It's like this

was confined to social media where you

could show yourself that you wouldn't

show in public and then they're hanging

out the flags and they're marching in

>> and it's marching closer and closer to

all of us. It's well the burning of

hotels. It's like let's burn down a

hotel that's got people in it.

>> That's and then welcome you onto the

stage. have that conversation and I

didn't need to explain that reference to

you. No,

>> we all know that's part of British life

now. The threat to burn down hotels.

What is this world?

>> It's a boiled frog, Russell, isn't it?

Because it takes moments like these,

like you pick up on in tiptoe, to

actually

>> have a proper look in the rearview

mirror because when you're in the car,

it's they're just flying by. Even when

you do what I do for a living and

thinking, "Oh, here we go." And I

occasionally have shows where I just go,

>> "Yeah." And this is the dramatic

equivalent of those moments.

>> And I wish it would change the world. I

don't want to talk for a second.

>> No, but you still got to do it. Why?

>> I can do is record it.

>> Yes.

>> I think someday I believe some great

ledger will be taken. I'm not being

religious at all, but one day people

will look at the 21st century. And I

honestly believe if we survive, and I'm

not sure about that, but imagine I like

to imagine cinema audiences in 500 years

time laughing at us typing at each other

like like we back on Gene Alley and

laugh. It's like how primitive was that?

Now there'll be dramas where we all sit

and type on our phones and and like be

hooching. People in the audience be

hooching with going look how mad they

were. I honestly believe that age will

again will come one day. Wh what what

one of the things I've already picked up

on is the fact that it could because it

could happen to anybody. Yeah. What

you're talking about

>> and I believe the event at the heart of

this will happen in some shape or form

one day. I mean if I'd written without

going into detail, if I written a

stabbing at the beginning, well that's

already happened. Yes, of course. And

that will happen tomorrow. If I, you

know, I've gone for something bigger

with this weird sense of justice to it,

that'll happen.

>> It happen. It's gone its And when it

does, and and please God, it doesn't.

But when it does, it won't have been

done by somebody who was created in a

laboratory to be evil. It will be done

by somebody who gone the other way.

>> A sense of goodness and righteousness,

and certainly a sense of their own

country.

>> Yeah.

>> And the patriotism behind it.

Astonishing. Astonishing. It's like when

>> I mean, I'm just sick of it when when

that toddler washed up on the shores of

Greece. We all looked at that picture

and said everything must change now.

>> It's only got worse.

>> It's only got worse now. It's that's a

normal thing now.

>> What are we doing?

>> I feel we should end on a more upbeat

note, but I'm not sure that that's what

you're doing next.

>> Yep. I don't actually know. Well, I tell

you what, there's a Ron Bear who used to

be ballet are doing a stage show of It's

a Sin

>> which is going to be Yeah. It's going to

be It's not a musical. You take calls

like that and just go

>> Yeah. Well, actually I fought off the

the It's ain musical for a long time.

Have you?

>> It's like I thought it was

>> a banging soundtrack, wasn't it? So, you

can see why people want to do that.

>> The Mosaras of those women fight like no

thanks. Um, but a dance show. They did a

Pey Blinders dance show and and this

which was brilliant by all accounts.

That's going to be this and it's and

it's very very exciting. So, that's

coming in 2027 and I'm just I'm kind of

I'm having a nice time. I'm kind of not

rushing to write the next thing. I'm

going to start now. The tiptoe, we

finished work on that next week and I'll

start right on the next one. So, that

script will take a few months. Then,

we'll start talking to people about it.

So, I won't be back filming anything

until next year. Really,

>> just just as an indication of how

absolutely up to the wire tiptoe is. I

mean, we're having this conversation 3

weeks before the first episode goes out

on Channel 4, and you're not going to

have finished putting it together until

next week. Well, there are references to

Kama and Kami Badinok that we're

clinging on with our teeth to say, "Let

them still be in power by the time we

get there." In fact, there's one line in

episode one

>> that was like, "Bloody Karma." And on

set on that day, I said, "Could we just

change that to the legacy of Kama in

case he's gone and we've got a few

weeks. It might still happen. In fact,

it could happen tomorrow." It's um so

it's it's it's it's very topical and I

love that. I think that's really really

exciting. I like I like making stuff

that way. It's it's an incredible the

Well, I mean, one episode in it's it's

>> Oh, thank you. That means the world.

Thank you for take just show you. I

think you're the third person we've only

seen it. So, thank you. Wow. That's

means a lot.

>> Well, I I mean, you know, so much you've

given to us to to to enjoy and to,

>> as you say, hopefully provoke thought

and provoke change. But even if it

doesn't, it's still got to be done.

>> Yeah. Yes, it does. Yeah.