Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Cara Swisser. Today we've

got a special bonus episode and it's not

about anything terrifying or depressing.

It's about the most addictive,

delightful, surprise cultural phenomena

of the decade, heated rivalry. I'm

joined today by the show's creator,

Jacob Tierney, and executive producer

Brendan Brady. Uh, welcome you two. You

guys are in mood already. I already

>> Thanks, Cara.

>> We've been beset by some tech issues,

but nonetheless, the gays will prevail.

Um, the success of the show is about so

many things. Queer joy, uh, uh, sex,

inclusion. It's amazing business story,

and that's really what I wanted to talk

about. Um, but first for the fans, are

we getting a standalone episode before

season 2?

>> Um, I love saying now this is Brendan.

So, um, uh, I would say that like much

like the best parts of this show, just

enjoy the year.

>> Enjoy the year. Is that on your t-shirt?

>> Oh, no. Soon. Trademark. Trademark. We

trademarked it.

>> Yeah. Okay. Because that means no.

That's a no.

>> That's We'll see here. This is Jacob

speaking now. Uh, that's a here's the

here's the truth and that nobody

actually wants to hear is that we just

don't know yet. We are, you know, we we

actually only finished this show

basically a week before episode 6 aired

and so this has been a a massive uh

surprise and endeavor and endeavor and

we didn't really have a moment to catch

our breaths before answering questions

like this. So the truth is we're getting

a plan in place. We will have more

information for folks soon. Uh we

understand that there's an appetite for

a lot of this and we're just trying to

figure out what we can physically

accomplish in in in the next year

>> in the next year. So one thing this show

has been a giant PR boost to the entire

your entire country. Here's Prime

Minister Mark Carney at a recent media

event. You had to speaking of Feel the

Year, but go ahead.

>> The world knows that Shane and Ilia are

rising hockey stars who fall for each

other as they face off in one of the

greatest rivalries the game has ever

known.

But they're also two young men who are

terrified of being their fullest self.

And we live in an increasingly

dangerous, divided, and intolerant

world. A fundamental Canadian value is

that people should be able to be whoever

they want to be, to love whoever they

want to love. So uh the narrative has

become that it was a little show out of

Canada obviously made in Canada because

American disturbers were afraid of the

sex content. Why don't you start Jacob

the reaction first of all and the kind

of what you think is happening here from

I mean I'm sure you've answered this

question but he sort of articulates it

rather well is that people are are upset

and divided and this brings a respit but

I think it's more than that in my in my

opinion but why don't you start Jacob

then you Brendan

>> I mean I think that there's I I think

that what the show did

in an in a kind of an unpreachy un

trying to teach you a lesson way is just

present queer joy. And I think that

that's its soft power. You know, that's

the thing that I think people are

surprised by and and that that is hit

people, at least from what what I'm

getting. And I think that while there

are queer stories out there, I don't

think there's a lot of joy. And I don't

think that the the the the kind of

profound joy that you only find in

romance really that kind of

heartfilling,

fantasy fulfilling, desireful things

that that you get to see don't happen to

queer people in media. And I think that

that is the kind of whoosh of it all,

>> especially men. There's a lot of lesbian

content out there. I can tell you the L

word.

>> I think especially men. And I and I

think that um yeah, we just don't to

have a story that chooses to not and you

know there are obviously

our queer lives are filled with trauma

and and I get that and we I think we all

know that but I think that this this

show's desire to not focus on that to

focus on other parts of the queer

experience as fantasy and I fully admit

it's a romance. It's from a romance

romance. um that that I think that

that's the partly the reaction to it. Um

there's a lot I don't pretend I can

explain, but I do that it is that

>> that is kind of that's the big

difference.

>> Yeah, it's different experience for gay

people versus straight people, I think.

And because I was always waiting for the

hit.

>> Yeah. I think we all are. And I think

especially because they have sex so

early and we are trained that if we have

sex, we will be punished. So if we can

not have sex, we might be able to be

happy. But we can't do both. You don't

get to have a sex life and be happy. If

you want to have a sex life, get ready

to die. And if you want to be happy, get

ready to not have sex.

>> I I think like the other part of this uh

which Jacob has talked about a lot and

it was kind of how we were pitching this

when we were going out to people, which

is this is a story written by women and

it's consumed primarily by women and we

don't take female uh desire and stories

seriously in media a lot of the times.

Um, I think a show uh like this that

came out of nowhere is kind of we were

when we were pitching it, we were really

crossing our fingers hoping that we were

right. We were like there is a built-in

audience there. The these books are

consumed. So there's so many readers of

all types of romance novels. They're

there and they are yearning for uh for

these stories to be told. So, I think

that was the other like secret sauce in

this is just like this is a massive fan

base that have not had their stories

taken seriously and they got to see it

taken seriously and they loved it.

>> We'll talk about that because romance I

always say everyone's like why it's so

popular. I'm like it's a romance novel.

It's from romance novels are pop. It's

one of those genres that people don't

realize how big it is, how big

>> and genre it's been around since the

dawn of time. Like it's as old as a

detective story, you know? It's as old

as all of like romance is there would

have been a time when when Jane Austin

would have been considered romance. I

mean that's these are and it's

dismissed.

>> I think to Brendan's point, it's

dismissed despite the fact that it it

the romance genre carries the publishing

industry in terms of fiction.

>> Um and I think it's dismissed because um

of the misogyny that we all endlessly

live with because it's something that

appeals to women, is often written by

women and consumed by women. And so why

would any I've said this before I was

like if this show was about a boy with a

gun somebody would have optioned this

book 10 years ago you know

>> well a hockey player with a gun

>> anyway talk about this but getting it

made like we talked on this success on

on on what it symbolizes the difference

between Canada and the US though even

how these productions are funded um let

me talk about this idea of was made in

Canada because American distributors and

let me play very quickly a part Mark

Carney's speech about that and how it

was funded

>> on behalf of Canada's new government.

Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above

taking credit for the Canadian funding

that helped you share this story with

the world. I might not have been here

when the decision was made, but I'm here

now. So, uh, yeah, I made I green lit

this thing. I stood up to the Americans.

>> Oh, that's amazing.

>> That was an amazing speech.

>> Yeah. So I I think that um like you know

this speech that he gave was at an event

uh called prime time which is hosted by

the producers uh Canadian producer of

media association like the Canadian

version of the PGA and the point of this

was to raise awareness of what's going

on in our industry because uh the

entertainment landscape is under attack

right now. We've been trying to update

our systems. Um, and because of Koosma,

because of uh the US's um, you know,

wanting to come in and tell us how to

run our country and how our cultural

sector needs to be dictated. There's a

lot of concern about whether or not

we're going to have a system in place

that has cultural sovereignty for

Canada. And so for us, what was so

amazing about this experience and

getting to see Mark Carney there is our

show was made in the Canadian system and

it is very different from the US. We

>> Well, explain it. Explain it for people

who don't understand.

>> So basically the Canadian uh film and TV

system has subsidies and equity and

grant systems that are propped up by the

Canadian government. So we, you know,

when you go to a broadcaster like we did

with Crave, which is the streaming

platform in Canada that um commissioned

the show, uh they go and say, "Okay,

great. Here is a license fee."

Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30%

of the budget. Then we have a tax

credit, both provincial and federal, and

that brings another 20 to 30% of the

budget. And then it's always that last

little piece that you're looking for,

right? So the benefit to us in uh Canada

as producers is it's unfortunate that we

don't get necessarily the whole budget

out of our uh broadcasters but we as the

producers own all the underlying IP.

>> So that is a big

>> you don't sell it to a studio

in the system

>> but the the you know the limitations on

that are you have to go then raise

money. So, how we did this with our show

is we ended up talking to a couple of uh

studios, some of them American, some of

them Canadian, and ultimately it wasn't

the right fit from a creative

perspective. And, you know, we've we

understand where everybody was coming

from. It is a this was, you know, on

paper didn't seem like a an amazing

massive hit right out the gate. Um, and

so luckily when we were going through

this process, uh, Crave's parent

company, which is Bell Media, Bell Media

is like if Comcast and Disney were

merged into one in our country. They own

everything from telecommunications to

internet to sports

>> and they have divisions like Craig,

which is

their only streaming platform. They have

others, right? Yes, it's their only

streaming platform.

>> So, it's like a Disney Hulu or whatever.

>> Exactly. But they're also it's like and

and they have CTV which is their ABC. So

they have a terrestrial they have a

terrestrial channel and they have

streaming.

>> They have cable channels, they have a

streaming platform. Um and they had just

acquired a distribution company called

Sphere Abacus uh out of the UK. And so

we were looking for that last 30% of the

budget and um they came in for 20 more%

on a distribution advance. So the last

10% was Jacob and I putting our producer

fees and we put in almost all of our

producer fees less what we had to keep

back because you still have to pay for

taxes. So it was a big gamble for us but

ultimately I can I

>> So what you would have earned for this

the fees that are standard right when

you when you what was the total budget

here?

>> So we were just under 3 million Canadian

an episode.

>> Amazing. That's pretty low. Which is

what

>> I don't know if you know what a big deal

this is, but Brendan is telling the

truth.

>> Yeah, we've been

>> Cara Swisser gets

>> She gets the truth. This is exclusive.

>> So, we were uh we were just under three

uh per episode

>> per episode Canadian,

>> right? Because it looks great, by the

way. It didn't look on the cheap or

anything else cuz

>> that's also that speaks to Jacob and his

amazing abilities. He's directed over a

100 episodes of television. So he knows

what he's doing and also speaks to a way

in which we like to work uh which we

feel really is is different than the US

system or typical

>> is an enormously low amount of for

people who don't know it's it's very low

for a reg television shows I mean the

salary

>> it's low for a sitcom it's deeply low

for a 1-hour drama. Yeah.

>> Deeply low for most those are the

salaries of certain people depending.

So, um, talk, you know, obviously these

were not well-known people, but still

it's still an expensive thing. I think

most US ones, I feel like 10 million is

the lowest they make, right?

>> It can, it depends. It's like between

six to four to$10 million an episode US

is typical. Uh, depending on what your

level is, but yeah, I mean, costs have

really skyrocketed over the last decade.

>> Is it less expensive to make this in

Canada from a production perspective?

>> No, we have an efficient model. Um, and

I mean, yes, it is because we don't have

the same level of money that is being

thrown around. So, we by necessity have

to spend less. Um, but we also like did

something here where we shot all six

episodes in 36 days. Jacob shot shot

Jacob directed all six of them. We block

shot them like one giant movie. Um, we

talk about this when studios, especially

US studios, come and say, "How do you

guys do this?" And we go, "It's crazy."

You have all of your episodes written

before you go into prep. And that's

typically when we lose people and they

don't understand,

>> right? Because they write it through.

They although that's changing in the US

actually.

>> It's crazy to do it the other way. It's

especially when you're not doing 22

episodes anymore. Like back in the old

model when you're doing this volume of

episodes where it's not possible to have

them all ready.

>> Well, you have writers on staff.

>> Well, you have to just be writing all

the time. But if you're doing if the new

model is 8 to 10 episodes, there's

almost no reason why this can't be

accomplished before you start shooting.

So, you start shooting. Go ahead. Go

ahead.

>> Yeah, we start shooting and then we do

10-hour shoot days primarily. Like, I'm

not going to say it's not every day, but

we try to keep our hours low. And

there's a couple of reasons for this. A,

as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours

with crews, you end up paying for an

additional day by virtue of the

overtime. Uh, but we also just feel that

like, you know, my wife is an assistant

costume designer. She was the assistant

costume designer on this show. She's 5

months pregnant. Uh the departments that

Thank you. The departments that get

hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with

these precalls a lot of the time. Who

are those departments run by? Primarily

women. And so we also just feel that

like there in our business we need to

change this mentality of endlessly

shooting 15 16 hour days which is where

the costs balloon.

>> Right. Right. What are you a lesbian?

What's happening here? Anyway, so but

but Jacob talk about your production

style. you you besides being you know

truncated like making it tight you keep

it keep it tight kind of thing you call

it anti-fascist explain what you mean by

that

>> well I mean I guess what I what I mean

about that is there's a desire often for

perfection that is I think not only

unachievable but also uh insane and

cruel to be even attempting. There's no

reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of

a scene because you don't like the

performance of the actor. I I'm an

actor. I've been doing this since I was

four years old. The problem is the

scene. It's not the actor. You haven't

written it properly. If you're not

accomplishing what you need to

accomplish, there's a fundamental issue.

And by torturing people into repeating

and repeating and repeating, I don't

know what you're gaining. And so that's

kind of

>> I just did I just did a it was all day.

I was like, why? I kept saying why is it

all day?

>> To do nine different sizes on a closeup

is insane. All of this stuff is crazy.

It's just like it doesn't add to

anything except exhaustion and to

overworking people. I would and what I

like to say is I would rather be

surprised by an offering from an actor

than control every last aspect of their

performance. And I've used the a scene

as an example like on the day when we

were shooting. There's a scene in the

sixth episode in the cottage after the

boys have been caught by Shane's dad

where Hudson and Connor have a scene

together and they essentially he decides

that he's going to go talk to his

parents. Ilia's going to come with him.

And when we were shooting it, I thought

I I wasn't convinced that I was going to

use what Hudson was doing in that scene.

I thought it might be too much. He was

reacting. He had a big reaction which is

interesting for Hudson because he's a

very internal actor especially when he's

playing Shane and I didn't say anything

and I just kind of watched it and I was

like this is interesting. I think I can

cut around this. I think I can figure

out how to get what I want out of this

scene. And then when I got to the

editing room and my editor put the scene

together, she loved what he had done.

And I looked at it again with new eyes

and I was like, "Oh, I actually love

this too." And I'm so glad I didn't

insist on some idea that I had in my

head because what he brought to the

table was more interesting and it was

surprising and it was full of life and

it wasn't part of some insane jigsaw

plan that I had in my head that needs to

fit together or everything falls apart.

>> And I

>> Well, it's a different way of creating,

right?

>> It is a different way of creating, but

also I I do believe fundamentally that

film and TV is an ensemble process. It

is. Otherwise, go write a book, you

know, go paint a picture. There's lots

of ways to be in total control, but as

soon as you invite other talents in, as

soon as you invite, you're in a medium

in which that is a part of how it's

going to have to happen to ask these

brilliant people to work with you and

then not listen to them or not use their

skill.

>> Although that's sort of the director

genre, right? Like the director gets to

run everything gets to run.

>> And I think it's a crazy system, you

know, like I want to work with talented

people and I want to what are they doing

here if I'm not going to listen to them?

if I'm not going to incorporate their

ideas, if I'm not going to incorporate

what makes them so talented, why I

wanted to work with them in the first

place. And so, you know, anti-fascist

might be a big statement, but it is kind

of it's a rejection of an idea that

everything has to come from one person

and like what you know, the the

brilliant idea is very top.

>> Yeah, I've had I've had very little

experience, but I've been on several

sets. I mean, the idea of somebody

taking your cell phone from you when you

get to work because they want you

focused on their art is so pardon, my

friend. So [ __ ] male and boring and

stupid to me. Why does the girl can't he

can't text his wife about dinner because

your genius extends that? I It's just

exhausting. It's

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's also long. It's long.

>> It's torture.

>> I I kept saying to people, I got things

to do. This is a job. So when you talk

about owning this intellectual property,

what does that mean now for you all?

Because I own all my intellectual

property just so you know and I think

it's important. Explain why it is for

you especially in this space because

that's something that's been an anathema

to the industry. Well, I'll tell you

what it means is like Jacob and I uh you

know worked on a show called Letter

Kenny and Shy and the producers of that

show made it in Canada as well and they

had a robust merchandise business and

when we were in post-prouction we

decided because we have we you know

retained all the intellectual property

behind the series that we wanted to take

advantage of that and make a line of

merchandise which we're doing which is

now incredibly uh like it's It's become

this amazing part of our business that

we're super excited about. But it also

means that ultimately like when we we

made the decision to reinvest our fees,

it was because we knew that if this goes

really well, we're going to benefit for

the next 25 years off of this. And that

is the difference. And I think like what

you know people always ask about or I

guess you look at the Canadian system

versus the American system. the Canadian

system. You as the producers, if you

want to take advantage of being a really

truly Canadian show, part of the G like

the offering is the broadcasters can't

own the IP. The producers get to and

some people will look at that, you know,

the but the flip side in the US is

you're making way more money upfront. I

don't think that either is right and the

other is wrong. I just think that our

system uh is something to protect

because what's happening in the US you

can kind of look to and say I mean is

this fully working right now like can we

really argue that this system is better

than ours? No. But I can say that for a

hundred years this business was run on

the idea that creators and the people

who made it got to own and benefit from

what they did did for their entire

lives. And I think that that's something

worth fighting for.

>> I I think so completely. At some point,

I wasn't gonna make something for

someone and I said, "You just have to

give me IP." And they said, "Why do you

have to have it?" I said, "None of your

business." Cuz I want it.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz it's mine. It's not yours.

>> It's like the old musician, right? It

was like own your own publishing, right?

Because why would you let somebody else

administer your work and take all the

profit from it?

>> That's correct.

>> And like we're going to we have

opportunities and we will work in this

system that doesn't have that and it'll

be fine as well. But I just think that

like when we talk about, you know,

there's so many reasons why budgets have

exploded. You know, the economy

of scale on on TV has just completely

fallen out because we don't make episode

enough episodes. We don't contain them

into certain locations. But also, it

doesn't matter if you have a massive hit

or kind of a middling hit, you seem to

win no matter what at that level. So I

think that there is something to look at

as we move forward in these systems of

like giving people back end again like

these these old ideas should be new

>> right which they which they have

changed. So we're going to take a quick

break when we come back we'll have a

question from a big fan. We're back with

Rob's executive producer Jacob Dier and

Brendan Brady uh who are behind the the

people behind this huge hit heated

rivalry. I'm friends with Eileen Chaen,

the executive producer of the L- Word,

Handmaid's Tale, and many other shows.

And of course, the groundbreaking sort

of gay show in the United States was

this one, uh, which was many moons ago.

She had a question we're going to play

for you right now, Jacob. I love your

show. Absolutely love it.

Congratulations. Here's my question. Our

mutual friend, colleague, agent, ally,

Matt Felker, shared with me the

outlandish and stupidly familiar story

of getting heated rivalry on the air.

all the rejections that preceded your

fabulous and well-deserved massive

success. So, do you feel vindicated,

pissed, annoyed, smuggly satisfied,

grateful, just enjoying the process,

more determined than ever to tell sexy

queer human stories, some other emotion

that I didn't describe or perhaps

haven't yet even experienced?

>> That's a um that's a great question. I

>> She's great. For people that don't know,

Lord really

>> brilliant show,

>> groundbreaking at the time. Um, was

shocking and showed people happy.

>> Yes, it did. It showed a lot of

complexity. I mean, yeah, it was a Yeah,

that's a real Thank you, um, for the

question and thank you for being a fan

of the show. That's so cool. And I'm

sorry that Matt Felker is both of our

agents. Um, it's a joke. I love Matt

Felker, but um you know uh uh I can't

pretend there isn't a part of me that's

slightly smug. I mean, you know,

a show like this we're experiencing here

with this show is so like beyond the

beyond in the land of you can have a

successful show as I did with Letter

Kenny previously and it does not explode

in this way and this this level of

attention. Um, I, you know, I I try to

not I I'm in therapy and I try to not be

I try to not be toxic exteriorly. And I

think that the lesson that I want to

take away from this experience is to

continue to trust myself creatively

because that is the thing that paid off

is that I felt very strongly and I

luckily had enough backing and support

Brendan primarily obviously and then my

my creative crave family all these

executives there and and I did trust

something inside me that was like I'm

not doing that. I'm not doing what these

folks want me to do. And I just to be

very clear it wasn't just Americans it

was other Canadians too. It was a lot of

people like this. They all like the

lean-in like, "Oh, you have a gay hockey

show with sex." And they were like,

"That's not what we meant. Too much sex,

too much hockey, too little hockey, too

little sex." Whatever it was, it was all

like, "Why is it like this? Can it be

different?" And I really was like, "I

don't think it should be. I think it

should be what it

>> What was the craziest thing?" Um, my

ex-wife started Planet Out and then and

they merged with Gay.com and one of the

venture capitalists said, "Couldn't they

just be hip people versus gay people?" I

mean, listen. And she said she said I

she was like what? Like

>> I think the thing that didn't the thing

that was the most you don't get this

note that we got I think was the idea of

needing a female entry point into the

show because women wouldn't watch this

show if there wasn't a woman

protagonist. And I was like you know

women read these books women write these

book gay men don't even know these books

exist. Like these are for women. And so

the miss that gap in understanding

u and I do think there's a thing with TV

you know a lot of executives they get it

feels like they get paid by the note and

so if they are not coming in with a big

thought what are they even doing in the

room the most of the best executives

that I know are the people that actually

speak the least and that kind of

trusting creators and then when they do

give a note uh I take it because this is

somebody that is rowing in the same

direction as me. This is somebody trying

to make the same show as me. So in

general they call it drive by editing.

>> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so I I

think that there was such a

misunderstanding of who the what the

audience wanted out of this and what I

chose to trust was my gut and the IP and

the audience that was already enjoying

it. And I was like why would you change

this when it's already being consumed

and obsessed over to this degree? Why do

you think you know more?

>> What about you Brendon? Oh, um I've also

listen there the best thing that

happened was we we are friends with a

couple of folks who ended up passing

because their their bosses wouldn't get

on board and getting them letting them

come to us and be like I told my boss

look what you missed out that is the fun

part of the like kind of smuggness I

think you know but to be honest um this

has been absolutely nuts Cara like we're

this has been so crazy it's so much

bigger than we ever thought. I think the

>> now everybody's your friend, right?

>> Yeah. But also I just feel that I'm

going to sound a little polyianish here,

but I mean it. We are trying to also

stay grounded by being of service to

people. Part of the reason why we were

at the CMPA thing with uh Mark Carney

was to kind of raise awareness for our

industry and we're just trying to figure

out ways to to stay grounded with the

people and the things that make uh you

know we've got this incredible platform.

We want to use it to to actually promote

positive issues. Um and we're we're

hoping that that's what we can kind of

do. And that's been the most fun thing

that we've gotten to to experience right

now is like hearing from people how

their lives are being changed and how we

are now able to actually affect a

modicum of change. Even if it's just

pushing everything in the right

direction, we're not going to change the

entire universe here.

>> No, of course not. But but the

specificity of the things we are able to

change has been really positive and

lovely. So in that genre, I want to play

something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan

last month about how streaming has

impacted the creative process because a

lot of it part of it are people breaking

free, right? Like myself many years ago

or I have a lot of people coming to me.

I'm like it's great out here. Like you

don't need all that stuff. But let's

talk let's hear what he had to say. And

this is a very successful actor and

producer.

>> Sorry. You said Matt Damon. Matt Damon.

Oh, okay. Interesting.

>> He's talking about the the business.

>> I've heard of him. I think I've heard of

him. You've heard of him. Like for

instance, Netflix um you know standard

way to make an action movie that we

learned was you know you usually have

like three set pieces, one in the first

act, one in the second, one in the third

and you know you kind of ramp up and the

big one with all the explosions and you

spend most of your money on that one in

the third act that's your kind of

finale. Um and now they're, you know,

they're like can we get a big one in the

first five minutes to get somebody, you

know, we want people to stay

>> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know

it wouldn't be terrible if you

reiterated the plot three or four times

in the dialogue because people are on

their phones while they're watching. You

know what I mean?

>> So talk about that. He would, by the

way, would make an excellent gay hockey

player. But um

>> too old an old gay hockey

>> a retired one. Sure.

>> Listen, I should be clear. I love Matt

Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon.

>> So what talk about that? What's

happening now in in the creation? Do you

either of you feel pressure?

>> We have yet to really experience that if

I'm being perfectly honest, Crave was

not like that. Um, and I will say that

part of what the reaction to the show

that has been so kind of interesting to

me is people saying like this is a show

you have to pay attention to. If you're

on your phone, you're not going to get

it because it's so much about what is

not being said, about catching looks

between people. It is dialogue as

avoidance and obiscation. And the story

line is actually really simple. They're

in love. they can't admit it. So like

it's actually not a super complicated

plot in that way, but so much of it is

about the ways in which they're avoiding

each other, the ways in which they

cannot speak. That's why the sex is so

important because that's when they're

being honest. And so I think there is

definitely a move towards

oversimplification.

That being said, you know, I I don't I

wouldn't want to make too much of a big

deal about this. Like everybody wants an

opening that captures you. Like that's

not new. like that that that's been a

note since the dawn of time with stories

like let me in what's the first scene

why are you capturing my attention I

don't think that's insane and I think

that like I think that that's you know I

think that this thing you can see it I

think in a lot of streamers you know

where you're like oh boy you've just

explained a thing to me that I already

know I get I get that that can be

frustrating but I would also add I am on

my phone when I look up and realize

you've said it to me this for the third

time and I'm like yeah you're not wrong

I did drip Right.

>> But and I think that there can be room

for both. You know, entertainment and

popcorny fun stuff that like I kind of

don't care. And then every once in a

while something comes along and you need

to pay attention and that's okay too.

And then and then it's up to you to

choose. Do you is that too much for you?

That's okay. Move it along.

>> Yeah. I actually didn't look at my I I

have a rule like how many how many text

looks isn't in a movie? How good is it

if I don't pick it up at all?

>> We have shows in my household with my

boyfriend that we put on to be on our

phones with. We're aware of this and we

think of them as like visual podcast.

The

>> Grammys

Grammys was a good one. When you have

the the Netflix acquisition of Warner,

does that affect it?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we don't I think

we don't, you know, we have no uh actual

information on that. I would say um

again,

we just want more competition in the

marketplace and I think that this this

is part in Canada in everywhere

everywhere really. But I think, you

know, it's kind of to the point I was

making about like, is this system in the

US working really well right now? I

don't know. Is that good? Is this going

to be good for creators? Um, it's really

hard to tell at this point, but I would

say like I don't love that there's less

places to go cuz in Canada what we have

like the reason why we ended up on HBO

uh around the world is because Crave and

uh Bell Media have the exclusive rights

to all of HBO's uh catalog in Canada.

>> Um and so if we don't have HBO, you have

Crave and that has HBO on it. And so

like if we

don't have that on Crave, does that

affect Crave? What happens to them?

That's a big part of why people go

there. I mean, now in now in heated

rivalry, obviously, but um but yeah,

like I think that it's a scary time as

we see more and more mergers happening.

And I for one would love to see uh just

more competition because I think it's

way better when we have more. But what I

would say too, I just that because we're

an acquisition, you know, HBO is not

actually creatively involved in the

show. I think they like they they say

nice things about it, which is great.

Exactly. So, we're not like I think that

that that part is not really going to

change uh at least in the foreseeable

future.

>> Mhm. So, but now now that the show's

blown up, they're not suddenly have an

opinion about

>> No, they're still getting it for the

same price. I think it's worked out

great for them. It's worked out really

well for them. Like, this is a very

successful acquisition. And I mean it's

clearly working well enough that I don't

think they feel the you know yeah I I

think that this is just like keep doing

it guys. That's the that's at least what

Casey has explicitly quite said to us is

like keep going

>> but it can go elsewhere right around the

world.

>> Correct.

>> So it's been sold territory by terri or

chunk of territory by territory in

general p picked up by HBO outlets Sky

in the UK and Ireland and in New

Zealand. a couple of other exceptions to

that rule, but basically what they do is

they buy it for and then they have an

option on the second season and

potentially third season. So they get

it's like a kind of a right of first

refusal. So with with an increase they

get it. So it's not really even to be

renegotiated. It's just kind of like you

either want this or you don't. There's

no input into the content.

>> Right. Right. Um I have a couple more

quick question quick questions. One is

about obviously everyone here in the

entertainment industry in LA seems to be

in despair in many ways in terms of

what's happening and including with

competition with AI and stuff. Do you do

you is there a big fear from you all

about AI because this is the some of the

big hits this year have been the most

nonI type of content like sinners

weapons yours you know I think that yeah

>> I want each of you to talk about

>> has more thoughts on this than I do.

>> Okay. Uh yeah, I think that listen there

is going to be a place for AI in how we

work in this business. I actually think

that there are a lot of opportunities

but I think it is in that tool for

creators not as the creative engine

behind

>> costumeuming.

>> I think like even scheduling, budgeting

and prepping like those kinds of things

where you take an immense amount of time

trying to just input data. So much of

our jobs are data driven like just

trying to get information and I do think

exactly I think that those are the

opportunities right away that we will

see and where I would love for people to

focus their attention because we were

experiencing this and I'm sure Cara you

can you have had this with your team

those moments of friction when you're

trying to explain something to someone

and they don't get it that is hard to

replicate that is hard to do with AI in

a way that actually gets you to a place

where you're like, "Okay, cool. We have

now communicated together and we are on

the aligned and you're now going to

>> speaking of friction, your whole show is

about friction."

>> Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But yeah, I think

that I think it's hard. I think we

underestimate the importance of friction

in the creative experience.

>> Yep. I would agree. That's that's

exactly how I say it. I I talk about it.

I the the words tech people use are

always seamless, frictionless,

convenient. You know, they're always

using those words. I'm like, "No,

friction's critical for you being here."

>> Yeah. What about you, Jacob? Do you

think about it all?

>> Uh, it confuses me. Uh, no. Is the

answer. Like, I don't think like I again

like the way that the way that Brendon

speaks about it is like that makes sense

to him. I'm like, I can imagine it

helping me with some stuff, but like

it's not going to write for me. Like I

don't I don't want that either. I love

what I do. I don't want to I don't want

someone I don't need that kind of help

is the way I would say. Yeah.

>> So, before we go, what would you uh want

to do if you could do anything? Like you

guys are now the world is your oyster

kind of thing. Like you can do obviously

you're going to do another season of

this, maybe two, three, whatever. Um

because there's lots of books for people

don't realize. Um what what would you

want to make? Would you direct say a

pointed point break remake with your

heated survival stars? another one

before they finally [ __ ] the game.

>> Where they finally [ __ ]

that I'm very open to a father son story

with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves.

However, I would

>> um you know

>> they do look alike.

>> They do. They really do. And Keanu is

Canadian. He can come home. We can do a

fun thing together. Um,

you know, we are being we I'm certainly

being offered a lot of things and uh uh

and uh yeah, I'm very excited about

what's next. And I

>> Is there anything you're like, God,

>> I can't really say, but I can tell you

that once I can talk about

>> a couple of things. They are one of

which in particular is a dream uh come

true. Uh so yeah, I I'm I'm excited to

be able to eventually talk about it, but

I I can't at this point. We've got also

Yeah. And we also we have a whole

productions company that we're running

with a like a lot in development. So,

it's about getting these projects. The

projects that, you know, from a producer

standpoint, what we really want to get

made um are we have a number of shows.

The one that is about to go out is

called The King is Dead. And I'm going

to plug it right here because it's from

an amazing amazing indigenous writer out

of Canada named Tim Fontaine. Crave is

already signed on for development. We're

looking for that other partner because

it's basically a uh uh it's a com action

adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I

know. Bear with us.

>> Hello, Outlander.

>> Yeah, 100%. But it's a comedy about a

group of indigenous folks uh tired of

all these white people coming to North

America. They take a boat, traverse back

to England, uh, in an attempt to kill

King George III.

>> Oh my god.

History.

>> It's like Monty Python energy. It's very

funny and we're very excited about that

show.

>> Yeah. So, that's in development with

Crave right now and we're very excited

about that one.

>> All right. Well, everybody loves you.

All the boys are getting a lot of

attention, which they must be having a

ball, it looks like, but you guys

deserve equal amounts of attention. We

think what you make is amazing. and and

in this time in the United States, it

was just what was needed for. So, get

that episode out. Get that special

episode.

>> We will. We will do our best. And thank

you for having us on. We really

appreciate it. Thank you, Cara.

>> Thank you, Jacob. And thank you, uh,

Brendan. Um, thanks to the audience for

listening to our special bonus episode

of Pivot. You'll be back in our fe will

be back in our feeds on Tuesday, and I

will read us out. Today's show was

produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, and

Taylor Griffin. Brandon McFarland

engineered this episode. Jim Mle edited

the video. Nishad Kerwa is Vox Media's

executive producer podcast. Make sure to

follow Pivot on your favorite podcast

platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot

from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

You can subscribe to the magazine at

nymag.com/pod.

We'll be back later this week for

another breakdown of all things tech and

business. And Scott, eat your heart out.

I got the heat of rivalry, guys.