So I finally get my courage up and I

call and I finally get somebody in the

phone in that division and I say tell

them who I am and oh oh she said we're

supposed to call you. I said well nobody

[laughter] called me. I said I'm sitting

right here but nobody called me. I'll

never forget it. She said I have bad

news and I have good news. What would

you like to hear first? And I said well

I'll take the bad news. and she said,

"We cannot publish Morris Aurora

Brachiosaurus

because we are the rhyming home of Dr.

Seuss." However, she said, "How would

you like to write a new series for Dr.

Seuss?"

Um, sure,

>> Tish, it is lovely to finally connect.

I've really been looking forward to

this. And thanks to my old friend and

your new friend, Alan Lee, here we are.

We made it happen. Thank you for making

the time.

>> Really excited to be meeting you.

>> And I don't even know where to start. We

could start with the 200 children's

books, more than 11 million copies sold.

We could start with 300 children's

songs. But maybe we can I suppose start

the journey with what you studied in

college. Were you always intending to

end up where you are now or where did

the story start? Where did the story

start? As a matter of fact, I did not

start out to be a children's book

author. I started out to be an opera

singer. I went to college to be an

[singing] opera singer.

So, that was my plan. I had a great

plan. In high school, I tell the kids I

talk to a lot that I had two things I

loved. I love to sing and I love to

write. So all through high school I was

are you going to be a singer or a

writer? Writer or singer. And finally I

had to apply to college and I really

knew in my heart I wanted to be a

singer. So I have a four-year degree in

opera with a minor in jazz. And the

funny thing everyone always asks me so

how did you end up you know being a

singer and ending up being an author.

And the very short story is I came to

New York and I was auditioning

everywhere and my high school music

teacher got a job as assistant music

director on Sesame Street season two.

And I went to meet him and told him I

was auditioning and he asked me if I

could type.

And I said yes, I can sing and I can

type. So, I got a job as music

production assistant at Sesame Street.

And all I wanted to do was sing with Jim

Henson's Muppets. And my first job was

hiring the Jingle Singers in Manhattan

to sing with Jim Henson's Muppets. So, I

sang all day. I sang when I typed and I

sang when I filed. And I sang when I

answered the phone. Sesame Street, may I

help you? Well, after a year, [laughter]

everybody was so tired of listening to

me sing all the time that they said,

"Would you like to sing on Sesame

[laughter] Street with the Muppets?" And

I was say, "Yes." So, I sang with the

Muppets, I sang on the show, I sang on

the albums, and I sang on the specials.

So, I sang on everything. And it was

just so much fun. And my first big break

was I sang with Oscar. I love trash.

Everything [laughter] dirty and dingy

and dusty. Anything ragged and rotten

and rusty. Oh, I love I love I love

trash. And I don't know that my parents

ever got over it, tell you [laughter]

the truth.

Oh boy.

>> The big break. Well, let me ask you,

when you got the job

on Sesame Street, when you first got

that job, what did it feel like at that

time for season 2? And I'll tell you

something that I haven't told many

people, which is I have a season 1 staff

jacket from Sesame Street because a

friend of my family who lived nearby

when I was growing up worked on Sesame

Street in the early days. So, I grew up

going next door as a little kid, hearing

her stories, looking at her Emmys, and

my love affair with Sesame Street in a

in a way began before I ever started

watching it. So, I have a long history.

>> Wow.

>> What did it feel like

to be there in the earliest stages of

Sesame Street? What was the vibe like?

The environment

>> first of all the most creative

environment anyone could ever be in.

[snorts] Basically the Jstone who is

executive producer and Jim Henson and

all the puppeteers and all the

muppeteers and everybody were so

creative. They just made stuff up all

day long.

>> [snorts]

>> Another interesting thing to share is

that they were very worried that this

show was going to bomb. A six-foot

yellow bird, monster that only eats

cookies, a grouch in a trash can, a

multi-racial cast. How do we think this

is [laughter] going to go in 1969?

And Jean Ganskuni, who created the whole

thing, just let them be creative.

Whatever you guys want to do, you know,

go ahead. And it was so much fun to be a

part of it. And I believe in my heart

that my background on Sesame Street is

how I can do what I do today because I

was enveloped with this every single

day. And one of the interesting things

that happened was Sesame Street, they

needed books, they needed toys, they

needed merchandise. Who knew this was

going to be a massive hit? And they

literally asked the staff if they had

ideas for books. [snorts]

And I courage, you know. Oh, what the

heck? I got nothing to lose. I'll go

down and, you know, try. And I went down

to the book department and I told them

about when I was a little girl and I

broke my great-g grandandmother's teapot

and it shattered into a million pieces.

And my mother came in and saw the broken

glass and she said, "I'm not mad or

anything. I love you more than any

teapot.

And I went down and I pitched my idea to

Sesame Street Books and it's your

classic, right? You go pour your heart

out on the story and there's dead

silence. I mean, nobody moved. So, I'm

standing there going, "Okay, that went

well." And from the back of the room,

the editor for Sesame Street Books said,

"Could you make it a story for Bert?"

And my very first book, here it is.

>> Bert.

>> Look at that.

>> And the Broken Teapot. It's out of

print, but I have a few. But

>> And in this book, Bert breaks David's

favorite teapot. Spends the whole book

trying to get it fixed. And in the end,

David says, he's afraid David's not

going to be his friend anymore because

he broke his favorite teapot. And David

says, "You'll always be my friend. And

can you help me in my restaurant next

week?"

And at the time it got just great awards

and letters because you know it's easy

to have things be about stuff and this

the message obviously was that their

friendship meant more than this teapot

but but that was book one.

>> So let me peel back the layers a little

bit on what you mentioned this this

wellspring of creativity just being

steeped I suppose to borrow the tea

steeped in this creativity. What did

that look like? Were people just ad

libbing all the time like a Robin

Williams times the number of staff? Were

Were there meetings different? What did

that actually look like in practice when

you went to work?

>> It was one of the first TV shows that

had educational research behind it. So,

we had topics we were going to try to

teach. Every single season there was a

notebook like this thick with what are

the learning what are we trying to teach

kids? Obviously numbers and letters but

compassion and sorting things by shapes

and whatever it was

and then you would watch these you would

watch the writers just come up with

stuff. It was absolutely fascinating.

They just kind of made stuff up as they

went along. But the big thing I learned

from the Sesame Street writers and it

has saved me many many many times is

that they wrote the endings first.

So they used to look at Abbott and

Costello movies and Mark's brothers

movies and they looked at everything and

they used to tell me, "Okay, Abbott and

Costello are pushing a piano across a

bridge in the jungle with a gorilla

coming across the bridge at them. How

did they get there?"

So as an children's book author, I

always write my last page first.

So in my I believe bunny books, my

inspirational books, one of them ends

with just like the I believe bunny, you

may get a surprise, you can make a

difference, even a bunny your size. Then

I wrote the whole book about how he

helps his friend who can't swim and blah

blah blah blah. And then end at that

page. It's a very important page in

children's books because it is the last

page they hear before the book is shut.

go to sleep, take a nap, go out to play,

whatever. And I always write the last

page first. Always. [laughter]

>> Did you have much interaction with Jim

Henson?

>> Yes. I worked for Jim for years and he

was a, you know, somebody said once he

was a gentle giant with a mind of steel.

He's a great businessman, but so

creative and so nice to all of us

because we were low in the totem ball. I

mean, we were the production assistants

and he just worked and worked and worked

and worked. He would do a Sesame Street

day and then fly to London and do the

Muppet Show and then fly back. He just

worked all the time.

>> Mhm.

>> But he was just a very very nice to me

always. Did you learn anything about him

or how he managed anything that stands

out that distinguishes him aside from

just being a man possessed with with his

work, which certainly doesn't surprise

me,

>> right? I think the thing was you could

just watch his creative mind, creative

minds on Sesame Street when I was there,

something would happen and they would

just make something else up. and the

sense of humor and the lightness of what

they were doing. It was almost like,

"Oh, and by the way, we're teaching

kids." You know [laughter] what I mean?

Oh, yeah. Okay. The other thing they

did, which was really something, is they

were one of the first to do double level

humor.

>> So, they wrote stuff that was funny for

kids, but had all kinds of stuff in it

for adults. Because all these studies

had done if parents watched the show

with their children, the kids learned

more because the parents were there to

help them and that kind of thing. And

some of the early children's shows, you

know, no parent would be caught dead

sitting in front of. But Sesame Street

was so nuts that everybody loved it.

[clears throat]

>> And that really really made a

difference. Big difference.

>> Yeah. The double level humor. I remember

first being struck by that, not to make

my side of the story all about Robin

Williams, but was Robin Williams and the

songs in the first Disney animated

feature of Aladdin

>> and just how many levels there were to

that and how effective it was because

parents would go back, take their kids

to the theater multiple times in this

case, right? Obviously, watch the

television show. How did your music

training, if it did, help what you ended

up doing not only at Sesame Street, but

afterwards?

And I suppose I'm just asking if

if some of the tools or sensitivities

that you developed

actually ended up being assets as you

moved forward with these other

supposedly separate art forms. Well, one

thing that I used to do, the songs were

all pre-recorded

and so the Muppeteers, puppeteers would

go in and record their songs in advance.

So now you're Big Bird and you're going

to sing the song on Sesame Street, but

they are doing their dialogue, right? So

how are they going to know when the song

starts? So I would stand next to one of

the cameras and count them off. So,

measure one, two, three, four, and then

they would sing.

>> So, Carol Spinny could see me enough to

know that when I pointed to him, he had

to sing the song, the pre-recorded song,

you know, move the costume, move the

puppet. So, he was singing the song. And

the first two times I did it, I was

scared to death. [laughter] I was only

21. I think this is going to be the one.

I'm going to go one, two, three, and

start him and it's going to be the wrong

place, you know? Oh, no. But that's

really where my musical training came

in. And also

we used to sing the jingle singers in

New York in the 70s literally you'd come

into a session to this day. I'll never

forget it. And literally they they would

sing it through once. We are the sound

of the sound of the count counts down

fourpart harmony. And they look at each

other say you take the root I'll take

the third. to you take the fifth and

then somebody do the octave. One, two,

three, go. [laughter]

And I [clears throat] remember hold on

with a thread to this thing. And the

other thing that I love about those

early days back then we had orchestras.

So the Christmas I'll never forget this,

the Christmas special, full orchestra.

And Carol Spinny was trying to sing I

Hate Christmas. He's behind this

microphone and he's going I Hey,

[clears throat] I Hey, Chris. I I Hey.

Finally, they said, "Let's take a break.

[laughter] Everybody, all the whole

orchestra, let's take 10 minutes.

Everybody just give him a minute." And I

was standing next to him when he moved

over and opened the case and took Oscar

out of the case. I was standing right

next to him. I had the music and

everything. So everybody comes back all

these violins and cellos and clarinets

and they started it again and Carol

moved over and Oscar sang I Hey

Christmas perfect.

I [laughter] never I never got over it.

I was like whoa you know

but this kind of stuff went on every

single day all day. And when you were

working on on Sesame Street,

what was the reaction from people at the

time when they would ask you, "What do

you do?"

I don't know the magnitude of the

success when you joined versus later on

in your time there, but just to paint a

picture for people

>> because there are I'm sure some older

folks who listen to this podcast who

[snorts]

maybe even had really really early

exposure or maybe are are much older and

had really young kids who were exposed

to Sesame Street. Then there are some in

the middle who certainly remember

watching it and then there are some who

have probably never seen it.

>> Right.

>> But what was the reaction that you would

get from people when you told them what

you did for a living?

>> Well, it's funny when I tell the story

that I got to New York and I was

auditioning and it was going okay. I

would get a jingle here, a jingle there,

but I couldn't support myself. And I am

convinced I went home one Thanksgiving

to my hometown. I'm from Needam,

Massachusetts, outside of Boston. And I

got literally got out of the car and my

mother told me that she had read that my

high school music teacher had gotten

this job. And she said, "You got to get

all dressed up and you got to go see him

and he hasn't seen you since she left

high school four years ago. You've been

in college." And I have to say, it took

a lot of guts for me to go and come see

him again. And I was, you know, he'd buy

me lunch once a week because I wasn't

eating, you know, the whole thing. And

[clears throat] I think when I look

back, it was timing and and luck to a

lot of extent because would I ever have

walked into Sesame Workshop and said,

you know, do you have a job for me? No.

I was convinced I was going to be a

star. It was just a matter of time

singing. And back then, I'm sure they

still do this, you would audition and

they would literally let you sing nine

notes.

So you go Oklahoma where the wind goes.

Thank you.

>> Really?

>> I am dead serious. Anyone who auditioned

in the That was it. And you you were

there and you had your music and

everything.

So the fact that I actually was able to

get a job in music on a television

series was just magic stuff. and was the

public's reception at the time. So, you

have this sort of confluence of factors

and synchronicities that get you in the

door. You still have to prove your

medal.

>> Mhm.

>> So, you get the job. [snorts]

>> And was it just the the bell of the ball

at that point, Sesame Street, or was it

still in in kind of growth mode? So,

some people knew it, but not all people.

Where where was the public awareness of

Sesame Street when you joined?

>> Well, I think when I started it was just

really taking off, you know, literally.

And I don't think anyone recognized that

it was, as I said, they weren't sure how

it was going to go.

And something a lot of people don't know

about Sesame Street is it was originally

created to help every child learn their

alphabet and their numbers because there

was a disparity between kids who had

came into kindergarten knowing their

letters and their alphabet and the kids

who came in not knowing and started

behind before they even got started. I

don't think anyone really realized that

this was going to have such a huge

impact because kids then were going into

school and singing the numbers song. 1 2

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 alligators went to the

alligator picnic. Okay, you know

[laughter] that's this went on all day

long. So the kids now there was more of

an even playing field when the kids all

hit kindergarten and that was people

just didn't see it coming and it was

true.

>> So how did you go then?

What happened that led you from Sesame

Street to all that followed

>> that followed?

>> Yes. Exactly. Well, among my other

things that that happened is I was at

Sesame Street and as soon as I started

writing my Burton the Broken Teapot

book, I just kept writing and writing

and writing and writing.

>> And this is just on your own time or was

it all?

>> People started hiring me. I wrote for

Scholastic and I wrote for, you know,

Hotton Mifflin and Random House and

everybody.

>> How did you make those contacts?

>> I was working at Sesame Street and then

I produced Big Bird in China. I was part

of the crew that went to China with Big

Bird in China.

>> 1982, something like that.

>> 82, correct? And then I was senior

producer for 321 Contact, which was

another whole story. And then I just

kept writing and writing and writing and

writing and

I ended up at Random House as their

director of video. This was back in the

VHS days.

And once I was in there directing all

the videos

back in the day, they used to just take

the artwork for the book and move the

camera around was called animatics. And

I produced all the music and all the

voiceovers and all everything for that.

But now I'm in Random House. So I'm a

author, proven author, and I happen to

work there. [laughter]

So in the hallway they'd say, you know,

could you write a book about

butterflies? And sure, when do you need

it? you know, [laughter]

so it was kind of a two-way thing. I was

working as a producer, a television

producer.

I also in with 321 Contact. That's when

I started writing songs because 321

Contact was a science series and it

would took more time for us to explain

to other composers what we needed than

just to write it in house. So I wrote

songs about electricity and mammals and

you know [clears throat] anything you

needed. My favorite my favorite was the

producers would come into my office and

I say we need a song. I said okay okay

what's it about? Never forget this. And

the guy producer looks at me and says

the gestation period of different

animals. I said it's singing for me

already. The gestation period. So I

wrote a song called I'm waiting for my

baby. I'm waiting for my baby. Feels

like a long, long [singing] time. And we

just took stock footage of chimpanzee

and an elephant and Chiron. That was

back in the day. We called it Chironing.

The amount of time, you know, elephant

two years, whatever it was to have a

baby. Um, and then at the end it was,

"And baby, you were worth the wait, you

know, about it." [laughter] So, we made

stuff up. And of course, happily for me,

I sang a lot of it. So that was fun.

>> If we open the hood and look at the

workings of making a song.

>> Yes.

>> What does that look like for you when

they are successful? Do they have common

patterns where you start with something?

>> Yes.

>> And then there second there's something

else and third there's something else.

What did that process end up looking

like for you?

>> Well, the first thing I did and have

done a lot of is perfect example. What's

the science? What are we trying to teach

a child in this song? And then I always

make sure that I have a verse and then a

what we call a B section. So the the

song goes somewhere and then comes back.

>> That's always very very key.

>> So you decide on those two pieces first.

The verse.

>> What are we trying to cord of wood?

That's perfect example. I wrote a whole

song.

>> I'd love an example. Would be great.

>> Cord of wood. I can only remember how it

goes, but cord of wood. Well, find you

could find out how many how many

toothpicks are there in a cord of wood?

You know, [laughter] how many, you know,

picnic tables can you make out of one

cord of wood?

>> So, you got to figure out what you're

putting in for the science and how

you're going to make it rhyme and, you

know, that kind of stuff.

>> It certainly helped me that I had been a

singer so long that I was so used to

singing rhyming lyrics. One quick thing

to share because very few people know

this. While I was at Sesame Street, the

executive producer asked Joe Raposo. Joe

Rapo wrote the theme and he wrote all

the big songs and he said, "I wonder how

Kermit feels." Have you ever thought of

how Kermit feels living on this crazy

street with all these nutty people? And

Joe Raposa went home and wrote Being

Green.

But the big thing about being green is

all of us who write songs for kids have

end rhyme. Sunny day sweeping the clouds

away on my way to where they sweet. Can

you tell how to get how to get to Sesame

Street? Everything rhymes at the end,

right?

>> Mhm.

>> Being green, there's not one rhyme. It's

not easy being green, having to spend

each day the color of the leaves when it

would be nicer to be red or yellow or

gold or something much more colorful

like that. It's totally talking. There's

not a rhyme in it. And he came into the

office and sang it for the first time

and people were thunderruck

and of course it became a mega hit.

>> So yeah, I just started writing songs

about everything.

>> What possessed him to break the mold?

Had that been done before or was that

something that

struck Kim? I'm wondering if you know

the backstory.

>> It's funny. Why?

>> I always felt that this is a long time

memories of these things, but I sort of

felt like maybe one of the writers kind

of challenged him. You know, there's

only one other song any of us could

find, and it's Moonlight in Vermont.

Also doesn't rhyme at all.

But I don't know if someone said, "Yeah,

why don't you write about how Kermit

feels about living on this street and

let's not have end rhymes." I don't

know. I don't know if anyone challenged

him or he just went home and said, I

mean, the man was a genius. Whether he

went home and just said, "I have an

idea. I got nothing else to do this

afternoon. I'll try to write a song with

a rhyme." I [laughter] don't know. But

I'll say one thing that was really

amazing is basically Joan Ganskuni told

them all you know she had faith in them

just do it just go. So it was so free

flowing that people just made stuff up.

I have a favorite song people always ask

me my favorite song that I did not

write. It's called I just adore four. I

just adore the number for me. I just

adore four. It's let's see less than

five, more than three. [laughter]

And the other thing is the lyrics were

so grown up, right? I mean, that's

hilarious. But [laughter]

but but the kids, you know, just ate it

up. They just understood it. They

understood what that meant. So, it was

wonderful because every day you went

into work, you had no idea what who's

going to come up with what today. But

it's funny,

>> how many drafts or versions

made the cut, I'm I'm wondering in such

a free flowing creative environment

where you're allowed to throw anything

against the wall

>> and you're given permission and people

say they believe in you. My assumption

would be that you come up with a lot of

ideas and not all of them work.

>> That's right.

>> So, I'm wondering how many versions you

might come up with before you

>> end up with one that makes it to air.

>> The real challenge on that show was the

curriculum was king. So yeah, you could

go off and know write a story about your

lamp, but if it didn't, you know,

whatever the curriculum of the day was,

today it's seasons or cooperation or I

don't know, whatever they were, that was

true. They had to get that by that that

team and it was a whole team. The other

thing they did is a lot of focus groups.

They played stuff for kids and this was

groundbreaking at the time. They tell

stories about how Oscar was originally

orange and the kids didn't really like

it. Whatever it is, you know, they

change stuff. So although it looked

easy,

there was a lot of background on what

they could do and not do and that kind

of stuff.

>> The focus groups, I mean, that does

sound really innovative for the day,

especially with kids. But I imagine if

you're trying to sell shampoo and you've

got Bob the adult in your focus group,

you can be like, "Bob, would you spend

how much would you spend to buy perch

shampoo or whatever?" And Bob can give

you an answer. What types of reactions

or feedback were they looking for?

>> Well, it was great. They wanted to know

things like, "Did the kids walk away

understanding that AB Kadvki is ABCD E F

ABCD?" did GHI what because they always

wanted to pay attention to the fact that

if they made it too sophisticated

>> the kids would be lost

>> so they had to be that's a very fine

line because by doing the double level

humor like I just adore for

>> genius Joe Bailey wrote that one that

they didn't leave the kids lost

>> because that's not the point was to

teach them and get them ready for school

>> curriculum

>> curriculum boy

>> there's a question that I could ask

about songwriting, but I could also ask

it about bookw writing. So, could you

explain how Dr. Seuss enters the

picture?

>> So, as the years went by, I kept, as I

said, writing for everybody. Never

turned down, never turned down a book

offer. Scholastic, we need a book on

butterflies in a week. And I'll go,

okay, a week. You know, it's like, how

long is that going to take me? You know,

how much am I going to earn? An hour,

whatever it was. But wrote and wrote and

wrote and wrote. And in

1991,

I always go by how old my kids were. I

guess they were like three and four. I

submitted a rhyming book to Random

House. I was there. I was the senior

producer for home video. I was singing

on all their TV stuff

and I was singing on VHS's for them.

Anyway, I was right there. And I sent in

a manuscript for a book. Morris Aurorus

was a brachiosaurus who had the best

voice in the dinosaur chorus. He liked

to play tennis [clears throat] and swim

in the sea, but mostly he liked to eat

fresh broccoli. [laughter]

Okie dokie. And the end of that one was

so his friends try to get him to eat

something else. And he said the guy his

friends go, "Bro're fine. It's got color

and crunch, but you eat it for breakfast

and dinner and lunch." So they talk him

into eating something else. And the last

line is

so one thing is true and you cannot deny

it. Like it or not, you won't know till

you try it. Fine. Type it up. Walk down

to the book department at random house.

Hand it to the book department and hear

nothing. This is and I tell the kids

this is before texting, voicemail, you

know, we're used to using payoneses at

this point. And I hear a thing like that

didn't really work but okay. So I

finally get my courage up and I call and

I finally get somebody in the phone in

that division and I say tell them who I

am and oh oh she said we're supposed to

call you. I said well nobody called me.

I said I'm sitting right here but nobody

called me. And she said okay I'll never

forget it. She said I have bad news and

I have good news. What would you like to

hear first? And I said, 'Well, I'll take

the bad news. And she said, 'We cannot

publish Morris Aurora's brachiosaurus

because we are the rhyming home of Dr.

Seuss. Okay. All right. [clears throat]

However, [laughter]

she said, "How would you like to write a

new series for Dr. Seuss?" And I it took

me I um sure, you know, you never say

no. Never turn down a freelance job. And

they literally handed me

Dr. Seuss, not me, Dr. Seuss wanted to

write a series of books for kids about

science in rhyme for early readers, four

to seven year olds, and died before he

could finish the first one. So they

handed me a stack of research on

mammals, a huge stack of research on

birds. They said, 'We are so far behind

with this because we've been trying to

find someone who can write in his rhythm

and his rhyme scheme. And Morris Aurorus

Brachiosaurus was both, thank goodness.

And they said, "Can you have two books

ready in four months?" And [snorts] I

carried all this stuff home and I went,

"Well, I okay." And

I just started writing as a camel, a

mammal, and find feathered friends. And

I never stopped after that.

>> What an incredible opportunity. I mean,

talk about just the right ingredients at

the right time.

>> And

my brain will not let it go unless I

ask. So, so the the Morris Aurorus still

think I It sounds like a great book, but

that couldn't fly because Dr. Seuss

basically had exclusivity on that nature

of rhyming book

>> for Random House. Yes.

>> For Random House. House and he not only

did he write exclusively for Random

House but he created the beginner book

series which other authors also wrote.

So he was head of the whole thing.

>> And one thing to share about him which

is and there are many authors that do

this but he was an author illustrator

and I'm clear to tell everybody I write

the words but I do not draw the

pictures. And I had heard I missed

meeting him by one year.

They used to tell me that he would come

in with a brand new book. Let's say

Horton, here's a hoop. And literally the

art directors and the editors at Random

House did not have to do anything. They

didn't have to fix it. They didn't have

to tell him to fix the elephant. They

didn't have to do anything. They were so

perfect when he showed up with them. So

that was just amazing that he could do

both.

I actually never spoke to him, but I

spoke to

his widow, Audrey Geel,

and she called me because, and to this

day, I can never forget it. She called

me. I felt like on the phone. I couldn't

believe I was actually talking to her.

And she said, "Do you remember when

years ago in the 50s, they did the study

where they had pregnant moms talk to

their babies and sing to their babies?

When the babies were born, they

recognized and the dads too, they

recognized the voices and they waved

their little hands and their eyes linked

and stuff." And what they used on the

study was they all read The Cat in the

Hat, the original Cat in the Hat book.

So, here we are. starts 2008 I think

Audrey Geel called me and said could I

read all 41 of Ted Ted Gel's Dr. s books

and write a book

with references to all of them. And she

wanted it called, "Oh baby, the places

you'll go to be read in utero." I'm

sitting there going, "Okay,

[laughter]

sure."

So I went and read all of them. And

here's a who, if I ran the zoo, if I ran

the circus, yurt the turtle, fid with

the moose. I read them all and I wrote,

"Oh, Baby, the Places You'll Go and

turned it in." And I love this story cuz

by then my kids were in middle school, I

think. And I was going to pick them up

from school and I had my car keys in my

hand. My phone rang. It's Random House.

They said, "We are sending the files to

the printer for O Baby the Places You'll

Go. We need a bio from you. Really short

and it has to be funny. and we need it

right now. [laughter]

So, I just said, I you gotta give me two

minutes. And I hung up the phone. Never

forget it. And all of a sudden, I

thought, oh, wow. And I called them

right back and I said, Tish Robbie is a

mom who thinks that it's cool to be home

rhyming rhymes while her kids are at

school. And they went bananas. They're

like, done. Like, [laughter] okay,

just make this stuff up. It's what I do

all day. I don't and Oh baby, the places

you'll go is a bestseller. Flies off the

shelf. So Oh baby, the places you'll go.

>> Oh baby, the places you'll go.

>> You know the other thing I just real

quick about that I I am very careful to

say to everyone, you do not have to have

kids to write for kids. Many, many, many

fabulous authors did not. However, the

last page of O Baby the Places You'll Go

some I don't even know who drew it cuz I

don't think Ted drew it, but there's a

little pregnant mom, Susie and little

pregnant mom sitting there, you know,

and I had two kids. I have a son and a

daughter. And at the end, I wrote, "It's

a scrumptuous world and it's ready to

greet you. And as for myself, well, I

can't wait to meet you." And I really

have to say I think if I'd never had

kids, I don't know that I would have

come up with that. That's the last page

in this best-selling book.

>> But it just was flew off the shelves.

[laughter]

Still does. So when you got that first

assignment,

here you go. Pile of research birds.

Pile of research on fill in the blank.

Couple of questions related to that. So

you can tackle whichever one you'd like

to tackle.

>> Okay.

>> So one question is how on earth do you

pick what to include out of these many

many stacks because you have to be

really selective. The other question is

what guard rails slash rules do they

give you to

keep you within the universe and tone

and feel of Dr. Seuss?

>> Well, a couple of things. the first

thing about what to put in the book.

They did the research for me for the

first two books, but for all the many

many books I wrote after that, I did my

own research. And what I did that really

saved me and surprises a lot of people

is I went to the children's department

in the local library and pulled

everything they had on the topic because

already it's not in rhyme fine but it's

already been simplified. Right? So, I

would get a spiral notebook for every

book and write and write and write and

write the facts about space, the facts

about insects, of which I knew nothing,

and get them all written down and then

figure out if anything popped as a

rhyming potential word. One of my very

proudest was when birds want to go on a

winter vacation, they all take a trip

and they call it migration [laughter]

[clears throat] because at one point I

was writing down the birds migrate and

migration I thought oh vacation you know

what.

>> So that was one thing and as far as

guard rails there are two kinds of

rhyming in children's books

and migration and vacation is perfect.

Susian rhyme.

Farm and barn is what they call a slant

rhyme. It's close, but it's not a pure

rhyme. Dr. Seuss insisted on two things.

The rhythm had to be perfect.

On the 15th of May, in the jungle of New

Horton the elephant sat in the pool.

Doesn't vary. It never varies. And the

end rhymes are pure.

Right. New. Something Ted did and I did

as well is if he was in trouble for a

rhyme, he made up a word. [laughter] So

in the sleep book, one of my favorites

is, "Have you met the Van Flex?" or

something like that. When they sleep,

they yawn so wide you can see down their

necks. You know, so he made up the flex

to So in my book, Oh, the pets you can

get. Oh, the pets you can get takes

place in Gerlatz where they know quite a

bit about caring for pets. So, I made up

Gerlatz to [laughter]

an homage to Ted because when you're in

trouble, you make something. That's what

he did.

>> It's a clever fix and that became his

trademark.

>> I mean, it was genius. I mean, he just

made this stuff up all the time.

>> So, those were the two things. how to

get what the facts were for the books.

Keep it simple. Make stuff that rhymes

the kids. And what what really works

well about rhyme is there are kids that

would not have ever known what the word

migration meant but they love the rhyme

and they remembered the rhyme. So it's a

very very successful I mean after that

every single one of my books rhymes

because that

because it works.

It is their first exposure to a

pneumonic device, right?

>> Always. Yeah.

>> And you know, I've done I mean, I think

you would blow me out of the water. I

have so many questions about so many

questions about how your mind works. But

I did a bunch of cognitive testing

recently with a pretty well vetted

studied battery of of different tests.

And I'm 48, but I aged 20. Now, the only

reason I age 20 is because I have these

pneummonic devices. I've trained myself

to be able to do it.

>> And rhyme is a fantastic

in some ways instinctive example of

that.

>> Have you always had a mind for rhyming

or is that a trained muscle and also

your recall?

>> I mean, good lord, you just incredible

recall. Have you always been that way?

Are other people in your family like

that? I had a phenomenal English teacher

in high school. So in high school for

me, Needm High School, Needm,

Massachusetts, not only did my music

director end up getting me my first job

in New York, but my Mr. Allen, my

English teacher, was phenomenal. And

what he used to have us do is write

poems,

sonnetss,

we wrote plays, we wrote, you know, and

it it helped me understand the format

and also how to figure out end rhyme and

limmericks. I have a book that is still

not published. I think I'm going to end

up publishing it myself, but

[clears throat] I sort of built on the

Morris Aurorus book and I wrote a whole

book for him, three actually for

Nickelodeon

that are in limmerick rhyme, [laughter]

you know. Have you met Morris? He's and

I changed him to an oopsaurus because

he's kind of clumsy. Got a 12oot tail.

But anyway, have you met Morris? He's an

oopsaurus. A dinosaur if you can't

guess. But sometimes he bumps things and

sometimes he thumps things and sometimes

he makes a big mess. So the entire

[laughter] the entire book's in

limmerick rhyme. But yes, that

[clears throat] that background and I am

sincere saying that I was really torn

between majoring in English in college

and being a writer or a singer. I'm very

happy I decided to be a singer because

now I can do both. But [laughter]

but yeah, crazy. So, do you think the

ability to construct rhyme came from

that education and the practice in the

English class or do you just have the

equivalent of some type of perfect pitch

for

>> for rhyming

>> rhyming out of the box? What do you

think?

>> Well, I will tell you this is funny

because when I first started, my husband

bought me a computer program that was

called a million gazillion rhymes.

Seriously. And I would sit there all day

long and type the word in. What rhymes

with antenna? [laughter]

You know, anything. Hello. Then after

over the years, I have gotten to the

point where now I just know what they

rhyme. But speaking of pneumonics, I

think you'll get a kick out of this.

This is the

page in my best-selling solar system

book, Dr. Seuss. Right.

>> All about our solar system.

>> All about our solar system. So, things

are going fine. And I write this

pneummonic. You've seen all the planets.

Now, here is a trick to remember their

names. and remember them quick. And I

write the whole thing.

Mallerie Valerie Emily meets just served

up 999

pizzas. So, so far so good. Except pizza

stood for Pluto.

And

[laughter] so I get a call from Random

House. Pluto has been demoted.

[laughter] And I'm like, what? I'm on

the phone and they said, can you fix

this? But we can't get the illustrator

to change the art. So Emily here,

Valerie Emily, what is her name?

Mallerie Valerie Emily Mitz was holding

pizzas. So I'm like, okay. So I changed

it to Mallerie Valerie Emily Mckles

just showed us 999

nickels.

And all the art all of the art guy had

[laughter] to do was change the pizza

boxes to nickels saved.

But I'm like, what? What do you mean

Pluto? Give me a break. I mean,

seriously,

>> been nine planets to eight. I'm not I'm

not prepared for this. [laughter]

So, this kind of stuff goes on all day.

This is what I do for a living. But, it

is fun. I mean, you have to keep your

sense of humor. I'm going to move on to

asking you more about the craft, but if

you don't mind me asking, what is your

age at present?

>> At the moment, I am 74.

>> I'll be 75 in July and I started my own

company when I turned 71.

>> 71. And we we are definitely going to

talk all about that. [laughter]

>> Do you have siblings? Like everyone in

your family

>> as razor sharp as you are? I mean,

that's a hard question. I don't like to

throw your siblings under the bus, but

[laughter]

I'm so curious to what you attribute

being I mean, you're sharper than 99% of

my friends

>> who are my age or younger.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm wondering to what you attribute

that.

>> My parents got married when the as World

War II was starting

>> and when my father came home, he was a

prisoner of war. They wanted to start a

family and they had two little boys and

a little girl and the little girl was

me. And my father used to come home and

play piano for about a half hour after

work. But I do not come from a musical

family at all. My mom was an English

major so she loved to write. So she was

a writer. But music was not a thing in

our family. My brothers didn't play much

and it was fine. They played sports.

Well, supposedly when I was seven, I was

in first grade. My father was playing

this song he played every single night.

It was my mother's favorite and I just

stood up and started singing with him

and they still talk about it. It was a

song called Tammy from Tammy and the

Bachelor movie. My mother loved it. I

hear the cottonwood whispering above.

Tammy Tammy Tammy's my love. And the

whole room my brothers were doing their

homework. They stopped. My mother was

doing something at the kitchen. She

stopped. My father stopped.

I was like, [laughter] I don't even know

what just happened. And I was just

encouraged from day one to pursue music

and writing. And so it was a very

receptive and I'll be honest, when I

went to college, I told my mother, I'm

going to get a degree in singing. Well,

now you'd say, well, what are you going

to do to eat? You know, that's nice, but

if you don't make it on Broadway, right?

What are you going to do? I was the only

one in my class, Ithaca College, class

of 72, that did not take an education

backup.

>> I didn't want to teach music. I didn't

want to teach kids to re measing.

So I literally was convinced I would

leave college and come to New York and

within a year

name and lights piece of cake, you know,

[laughter]

and only anybody as nuts as I am would

think that. But hey, and you know, my

parents never blinked. They they said,

"Sure, if you think this is going to

work, good luck." [laughter]

So it just has always been a part of my

life. the music I think more and more I

mean I wanted to be a neuroscientist way

back in the day and was a major in the

department and the whole nine yards

things ended up taking a turn and I

ended up where I am now but I'm still

very involved with science and the more

I look at music the more I talk to

musicologists who are in dialogue with

neuroscientists the more important andor

therapeutic

lifegiving music seems to It is

>> it's impossible to say you pull this one

lever and you get X Y or Z result. But

>> it seems to be a commonality

that musicians or people who engage with

music regularly just retain their

faculties and hone their faculties a lot

longer than people who don't. That's

just my impression. Well, the other

thing that's huge is that music is

unbelievably helpful to teach kids and

the sound of it and the rhythm of it and

the rhymes. Every single one of the

books I've created myself has a song in

it. And what I do is I write them to

public domain melodies because people

know these songs. Most of them. The

first book I created was a little book

about going to sleep. So, I wrote a

lullabi.

Night is here. Today is done. It's time

to sleep, my little one. To the tune of

Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star.

>> So smart. So smart.

>> And it really works. And I really

encourage everybody. I get this all the

time. Everybody's always, "Yeah, but you

got this beautiful voice and you sing

all the time and I can't sing." And and

I just try to say to everybody, and I

mean this from the bottom of my heart,

you can sing. Just it doesn't mean if

it's croaky. It doesn't matter what it

sounds like. The only voice your child

wants to hear is yours. They want to

hear you sing to them. Yes, I have me

singing them on my website and I try to

help everybody learn to sing them and

but at the end of the day, it's your

voice resonating in their ear. I forget

how I said it in here, but it's like

that is the voice that every little kid

wants to hear.

The sound of your voice when you read

and sing is what your child loves more

than anything. Isn't Sweet Dreams here?

>> What made Sweet Dreams work? Right. What

makes it work? And maybe even more

broadly, what makes Lullabis work? What

are the other ingredients? You mentioned

the mapping to a public domain melody is

really smart. I mean, that makes so much

sense on a lot of levels. What else

makes that book work?

>> I started my own company right during co

2020, right? CO's flying around and what

am I going to do and you know turn 70

what now what and I was introduced to a

program with a friend of mine said you

have to meet the people at pajama

program it's now called beyond bedtime

but then it was called pajama program so

I went in and I found out that they give

free pajamas and story books to kids

facing difficult adversity

>> many kids don't not having any pajamas

any story books

So, I kind of went in to meet with them

thinking, well, maybe I could do a

fundraiser or get my girlfriends to, you

know, send in some pajamas or something.

And they said, "What we really need is

to help parents learn how to get their

kids to go to sleep." And I said, "The

best thing that works for this is to

write a story book they'll read to their

kids and then put the tips in the back

and they'll read them, too.

And then I put them all in rhyme.

So 30 to 60 minutes before you tuck them

in is the perfect time for their bedtime

routine to begin. And what's happening

is parents read the book and they read

the tips out loud to the kids. So the

kids are going, "Oh, 30 to 60 minutes.

[laughter] Mom, you know, we're supposed

to be in bed now."

And then of course you sing a lullabi

because singing is so restful

and the kids and now it's been out for a

couple years. Everybody knows the songs.

The kids know it. You know the kids in

school, they sing it in school, daycare.

So it's very very powerful.

>> I want to come to starting your company

and the reasons behind that. Why did you

start a company at 70?

>> 70. [laughter] Yeah.

>> And there's nothing wrong with that. I

know. What do you mean that's what the

reasons were behind that?

>> Well, it's funny. I ended up marrying a

guy I met in high school. That high

school it shaped my whole life. That

[laughter]

>> produced so many crown jewels. Yeah.

>> So many jewels. And my husband and I

live in Mystic, Connecticut. And he's an

avid fisherman. So during the fishing

season, he fishes three to four days a

week. So I'm sitting there going, "Well,

then what am I going to do?" You know,

let's think.

And I really felt that I had some ideas

for books that the other publishers

weren't doing. One book I'm very proud

of. It's called Love You, Hug You, Read

to You. Was my very first book. And it's

a board book. And I had begged all these

publishers I work with to do a book with

what they call dialogic reading. And

dialogic reading has little questions.

So, you got the adorable mummy cat

reading to her little kittens, and the

little thing below says, "What do you

think the little kittens are thinking?"

And that helps the child go, "I think

they just love that their mom's reading

to them." And it sets up a dialogue.

That's why dialogic reading. I couldn't

get anyone to let me write a book for

them. So, I finally said, "Well, then

I'll just do it myself." So, what I'm

doing now with my books is I have the

ability to do what I want to do. And the

messages I feel never got out there. It

has been a huge learning curve or spike

because I always just turned the words

in and somebody magically a year and a

half later sent me 10 copies of the

book. [laughter]

Now I've got to find an illustrator and

a you know printer and a shipment thing

and be on Amazon and sell books on my

website and ah you know but I absolutely

love every minute of it. It is so much

fun.

>> This is going to be I suppose maybe off

topic. My listeners are gonna be like,

"What do you why are you asking about

fishing?" What does your husband love so

much about fishing? I went on my first

wilderness

like outdoor survival training trip in

Montana specifically and the guide

brought along something called Tankara

rods, which are these very simple rods

with a Japanese design. they are

simplicity itself and we would just stop

at random holes and give it a shot and I

found it so therapeutic but it was my

first real enjoyment

of fishing. I was wondering what what

your husband gets out of it.

>> We have four children and two live in

Boston and two were living in Manhattan.

So we sort of picked Mystic Connecticut

because it's kind of in the middle and

it is the best fishing in New England,

right? because we are right on the ocean

and right next to Rhode Island and Block

Island and all of that stuff right

around. And he goes out and they have

the best time and they catch sea bass

and all these different kinds of fish.

And it's out in the water, beautiful

ocean. He's got a 24 foot boat, you

know, the whole thing. And he brings

back fish and people we give it away and

he cooks it and it's just really fun.

>> Love [clears throat] it. But he

literally leaves at 7 o'clock in the

morning, gets home at 4. [laughter] So,

you know, I was like, well, I better do

something or I'm gonna go nuts. And I

tell you, there is nothing like giving a

book to a child who doesn't have a book.

>> I am on this lifetime mission of trying

to get free books to kids who don't have

any. And I have to say, having started

at Sesame Street when that idea was to

lift everybody up and help everybody and

teach everybody how to read, it's

amazing to me we're here at 2026.

But I'm doing what I can to make sure

kids get books, many as possible. Read,

read, read.

>> Well, let's talk about

Alaska.

>> And

>> yes,

>> sometimes a part always in my heart.

What is the context on what I just

mentioned? Can you tell the story?

>> The egis of this book is interesting. As

I think I told you, I am the child of a

World War II hero.

>> Mhm.

>> My dad was in college when he enlisted

and he was in engineering. He's an

engineer. So, they made him a navigator.

and a navigator in a B17

sits in the front with the pilot and

shows them the maps and stuff like that.

[snorts] And his plane was hit by enemy

fire, burst into flames. He jumped out

and was arrested and spent a little

under two years in a German prison camp.

That's when he came home and they had my

brothers and they had me. Two boys and a

little girl. A little girl was me. And

all through the years writing children's

books, I had wanted to write a book for

military kids and military families in

honor of my father, but also because I

felt no one understands this life. No

one understands the sacrifices they go

through. And I'm the grandmother of two

little girls who are five and three. And

I got thinking about what it means to my

granddaughter when my son is in away on

business for two days. And the military

kids see their parents, their moms, and

their dads go for a year. And I tried

everything. I tried Department of

Defense, Department of Education, the

naval bases. I'm like, "Oh, can somebody

help me do this?" You know, fast

forward, I'm starting my own company.

And I got clearance to go on the base at

the Graten Naval Base, which is right

next to Mystic, Connecticut. I went into

their library. I got permission to go

into their library. I read every single

book for military children in the

library and didn't see anything that was

helpful for this topic. And I was

literally leaving and the librarian

said, "What are you here for?" And I

said, "I want to write a book for

military kids." And she said, "Oh." And

she smiled at me and she said, "You just

need to reach out to United Through

Reading." And I looked at her and I

said, "United through Reading? Okay.

United Through Reading records deployed

service members reading books to their

kids. Hold it up, read the book. Then

they send the video recording home to

the child with a free copy of the book

so that they can all read together. And

when I heard this story, I said, 'Well,

what I want to do is write a book from

the point of view, it's lovely that

they're reading Cat in the Hat, and

there's no place like Space, and that's

all nice, but I want them to have a book

that reflects their story. This is where

I am. I miss you, but I'm fine. You

know, you're fine. I'm fine. It's fine.

And the first thing I did was I

interviewed service members, spouses,

partners, and kids. It took me months. I

have notebooks full of this stuff about

what it's like to walk away from your

three-year-old and hope you'll be back

to see her someday to serve our country

and keep us safe. And I got inspired to

write the book. The people I interviewed

gave me tips to put in the book for

young families facing this for the first

time. And one of my favorites was my

early interview. She said, "When my

husband leaves, he traces his hand on

paper and I put it up next to the door

so the kids can give him a high five

every time they leave." I mean, really.

>> [laughter]

>> So, sometimes a part always in my heart,

helping military families send love from

far away. I was honored to write it.

I've received a lot of big awards for

it. It's really a passion project for me

because

I cannot imagine my son walking away

from my granddaughters for a year, but

it happens every day.

>> And then the funny thing about Alaska,

this is really fun. Here's Alaska. So

[snorts] Alaska is is a little stuffed

dog.

>> He's a little stuffed dog. And I went to

buy my granddaughter a little present

and he literally fell in my bag. And I'm

looking at him going, "He's awful cute."

And then I thought, "Wow, I was right in

the middle of writing sometimes a part

always in my heart." And a lot of

service members have to leave their

pets. It's horrible because they get

relocated and sometimes can't take them

with them. So, I said to myself, okay,

I'm going to have the bear family have a

dog. Here he is right there.

And have him adopted from a shelter.

And then I thought, well, a lot of

there's a lot of training in Alaska. And

I Googled. One thing all of you if you

ever want to create a character first

thing you do is Google the name because

in for me if I find out that I was going

to name him you know Tony and I put in

Tony the dog and there already is one I

would name him something else. It's just

not worth the hassle.

>> And I put in Alaska and the only thing

that came up was Alaskan huskys but not

the name Alaska. So I named him Alaska.

But the cool thing was I sent one of

these little dogs to my art director and

my illustrator and from the first minute

she was able to put him in the book the

way he really looks. And one of the

things that happens to service members

that's him getting adopted from the

shelter. One of the things that happens

to service members is they miss they all

said to me that what the hardest thing

is missing their families and missing

the dayto-day little stuff. So in the

bear family, Daddy Bear is on a location

and they adopt Alaska while he's gone.

So in the [laughter] the last page of

the book is Alaska jumping on him

because they just met. just like

[laughter]

and I also wanted to have this little

dog. So the kids reading the book and

they also have a little soft guy to go

with him. So he's on my website, right,

Alaska? Yes.

[laughter]

>> So really inspired to write that one.

>> Is the best place for people to find the

[snorts] book and Alaska at

tishabbooks.com.

Where would you suggest they find the

book?

>> Yes, the book in Alaska are on

tishabbooks.com.

We have e-commerce all set up and you're

just ready to go home, right? With

anybody. [laughter]

Um, that was another fun thing. Who'

ever made a plush dog before, you know?

And the nice thing was the only thing

they had to do was put his little

bandana on

>> because this is the real dog I found,

but all he just had this says Alaska and

the name of the book. They didn't have

to build a whole new dog to just adapt.

The spelling folks, I'll just remind

you, Robbie, is Rabbe.

So, t i shabbe.com.

What else can people find on your

website? What else will people find?

>> There's a lot going on in my website. I

have a lot of books in development.

One of I just started my company. This

is always makes me laugh. This one is

called Days Can Be Sunny for Bunnies and

Money.

I [laughter] had

I got a call from a bank in Ohio. They

wanted something for kids because

financial literacy is a huge thing. You

know, you got to start young. So, I came

up with these three bunnies and they're

triplets and Honey Fern likes to earn,

Sunny Dave likes to save, and funny Ben

likes to spend.

So, [laughter] anyways, the thing goes

on and at the end they also give some of

their eggs to the library. And this is

them giving them eggs [clears throat] to

the library.

>> So, I love doing contentbased

books, something that's going to teach

somebody about something. And I've got a

big new book coming out in a month

that's actually all about Central Park,

New York.

>> Oh, no kidding. Fun.

>> That's a rhyming story book. Central

Park, you can see, is the best place to

be. That's coming out. [laughter]

>> How did that come about?

>> Well, it was funny. We moved here to

Mystic and I've never had this exactly

happen before, but I joined the Mystic

Chamber of Commerce

>> because I thought, well, I'm running

this tiny company by myself. Maybe there

are other people who are running small

companies who could help me with advice

or something. So, I go to this coffee

shop to meet their head of membership.

So, the Mystic Chamber of Commerce head

of membership. And honestly, I think

she's going to want me to put something

about me on her website or something.

and she literally looks at me and says,

"We have a huge anniversary coming up.

Would you write a children's book about

our town?" And I remember looking at her

going, "Well, it was February 8th." And

I never forget it. And I said, "Well,

sure." I said, "When do you need it by?"

And she looks at me and she goes,

"July."

[laughter]

I remember looking at her going, "Ah,

sure. When do you need it?" Anyway, here

it is. Mystic by the Sea is the best

place to be.

>> But the thing that was amazing, and it's

never happened to me before, we're in a

coffee shop at Mystic Seaport. I'm

looking right at her. Beautiful,

beautiful young woman, right? And she

says, "Can you get it done that fast?"

And I thought, "I"

And all of a sudden, I saw four seagulls

fly over her head right in the middle of

a coffee shop. Obviously, they weren't

real seagulls, but in my head, I saw

four seagulls. And I got to my car and I

said, "I've got it. It's a family of

seagulls who fly all over Mystic looking

at the seapport, the aquarium, the

boats." And I wrote the whole thing in

like two days. This is downtown Mystic.

[laughter]

So, you know, who knows where these

ideas come from? I don't know. But but

that was the first time I ever had a

complete hallucination in a coffee shop.

[laughter]

>> Was Central Park something that you

wanted to do or did that come to you a

different way? I work with a friend of

mine whose name is Jennifer Perry and

she was this vice president and

publisher of Sesame Street Books for a

long time and as soon as I started Tish

Robbie Books she came on as my executive

editor but interesting thing about her

she is a trained greeter reer g ree e t-

r greeter at central park in New York

and she came to me and she said every

single family comes in with the kids in

the stroller and like blah blah blah.

And the first thing they ask is, "What

should I show my kids? Where should I

take my children?" Right?

>> She said, "They need a book. They need a

rhyming children's book." And I was kind

of like, "Okay." So, literally, Central

Park is 843 acres of open land and lakes

and waterfalls and how to get that into

24 pages. [laughter]

I was like, "Sure, I got it. I It's

taken a bit for us to get that done, but

it's coming out in a month and a half.

So, yay.

>> Exciting. Very exciting.

>> And I'm working on a big campaign, which

is going very well to get people to help

me fund free copies of the Central Park

book to kids in underserved

neighborhoods in the five burrows of

Manhattan, the Bronx, Staten Island,

Queens, and Brooklyn. And

again, when I met your friend Alain from

this group in New York, this influencers

group, I met a young woman who said,

"I'll help you do this." It's on the

landing page of my website, and we are

absolutely crowdfunding enough money to

give a book to every first grader in the

underserved communities of the five.

Very exciting. [laughter]

>> I love that. I may have a group that

could be also maybe of interest or could

be interested in the book itself but

donorsechwoose.org which I was involved

with I suppose still am but was involved

with for ages.

>> In any case,

>> we'll link to the website and

>> link the crowdfunding separately for

people who would like to contribute to

that. Is you mentioned 24 pages. Is that

>> the

canonical length? That's probably not

the right modifier, but is that the

default length of most children's books?

>> They're kind of all over the place. The

Dr. Seuss books are 42 pages.

>> And

what's happening is hopefully, we hope

hope is that parents read to their kids

when they're going to sleep or, you

know, they're home from school. And it's

kind of tricky because if they're too

long, it gets too much.

So starting my own company, I thought,

well, let me start with 24 pages. The

interesting thing also to share, we do

other languages. Here's Sweet Dreams in

Spanish.

>> Mhm.

>> And also

pace of, you know, not a million words

on a page. Kids love to turn pages.

There's a whole kind of part of this

that's just how it works.

>> Adults like to turn pages, too.

>> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] They are we

gonna turn We're gonna see more artwork

here or what? [snorts] The other thing I

urge people who want to write a

children's book is to really think about

the illustrator.

I had worked with Jill Guile in London

on a number of books. We did the Huff

and Puff train books. And I knew for

this book, which is all about reading

and snuggling and going to sleep, that

she was the perfect illustrator. And a

book like Bunnies and Money, it's

supposed to be funny. It's this wacky

group of kids. This is another kind of

artwork.

So, it really depends on what your

message is and what your style is of who

you pick. If you're stuck on a book, if

that ever happens, but let's just say

something's not working,

>> what's your your go-to move? Do you

>> change the idea, the meter, the

sentence? How do you start to get

unstuck if something isn't working?

>> I did a presentation to a group of

writers called Girls Write Wit T now.

and I had young women in my in the room

with me and then we had Zoom calls on

across the country. It was the first

time anyone has asked me if I get

writer's block. No one has ever asked me

that. This was a couple months ago. And

I remember thinking, "Yes, I do." And

what I do is if I get hired to write a

book, and I still write for other

people. I just finished another book for

Harper Collins. If they say we have to

have your first draft by

April 1st, okay, April, I write in it's

due February 15th because I know there's

going to be a day when I cannot do this.

I can't figure it out. It's not going

anywhere. I'm stuck.

So when that happens, I stop. If I just

say I cannot think one more minute about

what funny Ben spend his money on

[laughter] for instance just a for

instance I will let it go work on

something else you know work on another

book do something because you it is true

you you get circled in like a

self-dissolve in you're just so consumed

by it. This is a great example of that.

This is interesting. This is the one

that I wrote all about the things you

can do that are good for you.

>> And this was the only time that I got

this assignment. And honestly, Tim, I

thought that is the most boring idea I

have ever [laughter] heard. They wanted

a book. The American Academy of

Pediatrics wanted a book about go to

sleep, eat healthy, exercise.

I thought I can't. This is Oh my god.

First of all, you cannot write this

stuff without sounding preachy. Do this,

do that, do this, do that. So, I call I

got my courage up and I called Random

House and I said, "How would you feel if

I created my own Dr. Seuss characters

like Zing singing Xans who loves washing

her hands, right?" And my editor at

Random House said, "We cannot call Mrs.

Geisel and say that you mother of two

living in Connecticut are going to start

writing Dr. Seuss characters. All you

can do is write the whole book 42 pages

all rhyming and we'll submit it to her

and if she turns it down you got to

start over. Oh great. Okay. So I write

the whole book. Here's one. Here's the

Zing singing Xans who loves washing her

hands. Squishly washly washly wish

squishly squashly squashly squish. Wash

your hands carefully. It's up to you.

You soap in warm water. It's easy to do.

Rinse them and while we all sing this

refrain. Germs from your hands will

slide right down the drain. So for sure,

fine. Okay. So I turn this in. I

[laughter and clears throat] turn this

in and I go, "Oh boy, I told my husband,

I got no be plan B does not exist. I had

the sneeze snicker sneeze who loves

brushing her teeth." Anyway,

they loved it. Thank you, Mrs. Geisel.

and they put it out and Michelle Obama

funded 16 additional pages with

exercises and all kinds of stuff she

loves. But that was a perfect example of

what am I going to do? I said [laughter]

this is so boring and it turned out to

be a huge bestseller, but it is funny.

>> We're going to land the plane in just a

few minutes. This has been so fun. But I

wanted to also ask you 1982 Big Bird in

China. What was that like? That was

really an extraordinary situation. We

were the first crew allowed into China,

the first film crew. A couple news guys

have been in, but it was the first time

anybody walked into China with a

six-foot yellow bird, among other

things, [laughter] right? So somehow we

got permission to shoot this thing. And

we walked in and they shipped one one

big bird costume

and I was production man. Wonder what I

was associate producer at that point I

guess. And they literally said to us,

"You cannot shoot this bird in the

rain." They're handpainted. They're hand

dyed feathers. If it starts to rain,

you've got to pull Carol out, Carol

Spinny out of it, and you've got to get

put it somewhere dry. So I thought I

really knew what I was doing. I

scheduled 13 rain days. We were there a

month in China. It poured the first 13

days. I mean poured. I mean I just

little, you know, little rain, you know,

put So we would literally push him out

and have him do one line. [laughter]

I don't know. Should we go this way or

that way? Boom. Pull him back in and,

you know, change him. [laughter] It was

nuts. So okay. But it did win the Emmy

for best special for NBC and it was a

90minute special. That was another thing

that was crazy.

>> That is long.

>> Oh my god. We got back with all this

footage. First thing NBC said, you know,

maybe it should just be an hour and

we're all looking at each other because

it had a really complicated plot and

he's looking to find the Phoenix and at

the end he finds the Phoenix. How do you

cut the middle out? you know, we don't.

So anyway, but so we did it did air as

as 90 minutes, but for us it was just

crazy. I mean, absolutely. I mean,

everything that possibly could have gone

wrong went wrong, but we came home with

it somehow, but it was really something.

[laughter]

>> How long were you there in total?

>> We were there a month. There's no

coffee. That's You can't have a film

crew with no coffee. You just can't. So

the first day, everyone's looking at me

and going, "Where's the coffee?" I'm

like, "Coffee? We're in China." I mean,

no, tea is tea, you know, cup. They

didn't want tea. They wanted coffee. I

said, "Well, you guys are gonna have to

get it together because this is not

gonna happen." [laughter]

Oh, man.

>> 1982.

>> Crazy. 1982.

>> Wow.

>> And I sing a song on that one. I sang

the Monkey King song on that show. But

anyway, but it was crazy. Crazy.

>> What an experience.

>> Real quick is there was a five-year-old

little girl from China and she has the

lead, right? And she and Big Bird travel

all around. She spoke no English, zero.

She didn't even know how to say hello,

right? They taught this to this little

girl by wrote, right? So, she finally

understood what I love you meant finally

by like the last day of the shoot,

whatever. But we would send them

scripts, right? And then we would change

the scripts, but then we met her and

she'd memorize the original ones. So

you'd be out in this shooting outdoors

and all of a sudden she'd say, "I don't

know a big bird. Let's find out." And we

go, "We cut that. Didn't we cut that

like a year ago? [laughter] Wait a

minute.

It was crazy." And we shot at the Great

Wall of China at 4:00 in the morning.

And we Anyway, but that's another whole

story.

>> What a wild experience. I was I was in

China at two universities in 1996,

I guess it was. And it is just a

different experience entirely now. I can

only imagine 1982.

>> Well, the interesting thing for us was

yes, there's a billion people, but back

then they were all walking everywhere in

bicycles. Now, of course, it's cars.

>> Yes, it's changed.

>> But just the sheer volume of people was

just amazing.

>> Mindboggling. Yeah. I got there at the

tail end of the bicycles. Yep.

>> So, I got to see people in big big green

jackets. It gets cold.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Depending on where you are, it can get

really chilly. What a wild experience.

>> Tish, let me ask you a question. This is

a metaphorical question, but it's a

question I like to ask guests.

>> And that is if you could put a message,

could be lyrics, could be a line, a

quote, a mantra, anything at all on a

huge billboard for lots of people or

lots of kids to see. Does anything come