I mean, the bar is in hell. If I was

texting you, let's say hypothetically, I

have no idea what right looks like and

what wrong looks like.

>> I went into that marriage thinking like

anything you can do, I can do better.

>> Welcome to Love Maxing with Dr. K. The

show where we talk to real people about

their real dating struggles. I'm Dr. K,

a Harvard trained psychiatrist, and

today we're going to be meeting

Mirabelle. Mirabelle is a single mother

who is laser focused on her career and

is dedicated to self-improvement.

[music]

>> I think that I've just always been

career driven and I think that we were

just running at a different pace.

>> After a while, I kind of was like I I

need a break. This is exhausting. I

don't think that I'm meant [music] to do

this alone.

>> We spend the first half of the interview

really getting to know Mirabelle and it

seems like she's doing everything right.

And that's when we stumble into our

blind spots.

>> I know. I know there's a ton of No. I

get it, but it's easier said than done.

It's so not It's just not

>> Uh Respectfully, I I don't I don't think

you do.

>> Okay.

>> I I know. Call me an [ __ ] okay? No,

but but but but I think if [music]

you're scared, there's a damn good

reason. So, now you're making a

narrative about your own fear and you're

saying there's nothing to be afraid of,

but it's a really profound fear [music]

and we've made resources to help people

with dating like Dr. K's guide to love,

sex, and relationships. But what I

really love about this interview is it

shows how hard it is to see your own

blind spots. [music] So, I hope you all

enjoy.

So, thank you so much for coming today,

Mirabelle. I was just a little bit

curious what do you understand about

what we're doing today?

>> So, from what I gathered, you're having

conversations with individuals about

their dating experiences

uh just to kind of get an idea of what

it's like at the ground level, I would

imagine.

>> Yeah, um and and so, is there some

particular reason that you uh you're

coming here today or anything? Like what

motivated you to say yes?

>> What motivated me is that I see a lot on

social media and

>> it's a rhetoric that's not necessarily

helpful, I think, for most women. It's

certainly not helpful for men. If most

women are going into the dating scene,

um having these having this kind of idea

of that's what the dating scenario looks

like for them. And so, I think maybe

just to offer a different perspective, a

one that is a good mix of both.

Um and I think one that I apply and use

and that that I feel like is successful

for me.

>> Awesome, dude. That sounds fantastic.

Can you tell me a little bit about what

do you what do you not like about the

rhetoric that people are sharing?

>> I think that it makes it

I think that it sets an unrealistic

standard for for women as to what they

should be looking for. I think that

they're setting unrealistic goals.

>> Okay.

>> Um and I think that with those

unrealistic goals, if that's the metric

that they're going by, then they're

going to not be successful because it's

not a realistic metric.

>> Yeah, so when you say realistic metric,

realistic goal, can you give me some

help me understand what that would look

like?

>> general one that I think everyone If

you're a guy that is 5'9", you've heard

this.

Must be at least 6 ft tall. Must at

least earn six figures.

Um I would say be, you know, in physical

great shape.

Um

Must be pretty emotionally intelligent.

I'm not saying that all of these things

combined um aren't a great, you know,

aren't great features to find in a

significant other, but I just don't

think that most men fit all of the

above. I think that it's I think that's

probably like 4 or 5% of the population.

>> Yeah, I think it's probably smaller,

actually, but yeah.

>> three. Closer to three.

>> So so so I see. So you're saying that

the unrealistic What's unrealistic about

it is

what women are being told they should

seek or find.

>> That and I think also searching for men

that are providers, that can financially

provide for them. And again, I think

given given what the economy's doing,

given that I think that the rate of

salaries isn't increasing as much as

inflation is, I think that that's

unrealistic as well. I think in the

current climate that we're in, I don't

think that that's feasible for a lot of

men.

>> I'm blown away by how data-driven you

are. Can you tell me a little bit about

your healing journey?

>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think this

actually started after my divorce.

>> Okay.

>> Um and um

it it really I really focused on it

after I had a 5-year relationship after

my divorce and it ended, you know, due

to infidelity and

I

>> It It did, yeah.

>> So, this is the relationship after the

divorce?

>> divorce, yes.

>> Oh my goodness.

>> So, so it ended due to infidelity, but I

just knew I had a sense

that that incident really had nothing to

do with me. And so, what I wanted to do

is I wanted to make sure that um that I

wouldn't bleed on someone who didn't cut

me. So, I didn't want to drag the next

person through the mud because I hadn't

ironed out the emotions behind, you

know, maybe having trust issues or the

emotions behind being cheated on and

betrayal.

>> I I'm I'm I love that phrase, I didn't

want to bleed on someone who didn't cut

me. So, I mean, you sound so

conscious of how these things could

impact you and that you don't want to,

you know, carry that baggage forward.

So, it sounds like you were divorced.

Can you tell me about that?

>> I think I married super young. I was 22.

I was 32 when I got divorced and um I

think that we were just incompatible.

He's a great person, he's a great

father. Um I really have no no

negatives. I think that I've just always

been career-driven and I think that we

were just running at a different pace

and so um it feels like when is it like

two oxen are pulling a cart when one's

pulling a little bit further or harder,

you kind of tend to go in circles. And I

think that what what I didn't and I

probably identified this early on, but

because this person felt like a safe

person, I stayed in the relationship and

I tried to make it work and I tried to

change some things about him that

fundamentally it wasn't a

it wasn't my job to change. Um

and so I think we were just incompatible

to be quite frank. I think that we held

different values, our value system was a

little bit different. Um some of the

important things we were on the same

page about, but others in terms of, you

know, like um managing household, you

know, duties and or um

um you know, how we handled finances.

Some of those very very important um I

think things that you prioritize, I

think we were on a different page.

>> Okay.

>> So.

>> Yeah, I I also love the analogy of if

one ox is pulling harder, you're going

to end up going in a circle. So, can you

tell me a little bit about um what

meeting that person was like?

>> I was super young. Um I used to work

with his mom.

>> Okay.

>> And um

you know, I'm I'm pretty forward, so I

thought he was cute. I gave his mom my

number. I said, "Have your son call me."

>> [laughter]

>> Wow.

>> So, that's how I met him.

>> forward.

>> I was very forward. I don't know that

I'd take that approach anymore.

>> Okay.

>> that it worked out so great for me

because I think now I want to be in the

receiving end of it. Like I don't think

that's always worse to it's always

worked to my best interest to pursue

something that aggressively maybe.

>> Can you tell me a little bit more about

how you came to that realization so it's

not great to be so forward.

>> no, no, it's okay. Um I just think that

>> this by the way. This is exactly

[laughter] what we want. Yeah.

>> I figured that's why I was saying

>> [gasps]

>> Um I think um

I think that I am the type of a to take

charge in a lot of circumstances, and I

think that I present in a very masculine

way, and I think that

when you continue to do that, you will

naturally attract your opposite and

someone who maybe isn't as aggressive or

doesn't take charge, and um I wanted

some I wanted something that was a

little bit more even-keeled, and so um I

take a step back, I think, and I

now I think I take more of a role where

I observe. I I think that I match the

energy, um but I'm much more observant

now that I used to be.

>> What do you When you say you're

observant, what are you looking for?

>> I think patterns. I think I Okay, so

like um how frequently maybe someone is

reaching out. Um I look at

um what type of conversation we're

having. Is it in-depth or is it not? If

it's not in-depth, you know, does it

mean that that person maybe isn't

comfortable being vulnerable, or does it

mean that they're not um emotionally as

emotionally intelligent as I would like

them to be? Um or does it just mean that

they're disinterested, and they're maybe

categorizing me in a maybe not a

long-term

um category, but more of a surface-level

let's like a casual type of

relationship. So, I think that all of

these are data points. Um so

>> How do you know?

>> You don't. Does anybody really know? I

mean, I think I That's my point is that

you can do all of the research, but you

can at any given point in time things

can lead along and seem like, "Okay,

everything's pointing to yes, yes." And

then things can quickly pivot. I think

in the current dating climate that we

have with um dating apps, it doesn't

make it easier. So, let's just say I'm

engaging with a person, and things are

going super well. Well, if this person

is still on the dating app, and there is

there's an idea that they have more

options, and they may stop talking to me

because the the thought is

or the idea is that they have more

options. It doesn't necessarily mean

that they're viable options. It doesn't

necessarily mean that they're more

compatible options, but the the

I I think that they still think that

they have more options. So at that

point, someone may drop off and decide

to pursue what may they may find is, you

know, greener on the other side.

>> So

uh

Thank you so much for sharing all this.

I have like a bazillion questions.

>> Go for it.

>> So

First thing is so I I I noticed you

mentioned, okay, there's like shallow

communication, in-depth communication.

And what is the, you know,

>> Do you want to know examples of it?

>> Sure, yeah.

>> Okay, so like in-depth communication

would be

or being very specific about what

long-term plans I have for myself, you

have for yourself. So if I was looking

at someone as a long-term partner, I

would say, "Where would you see yourself

in 5 years?" Is Would you like to have

children? You know, things like of that

nature.

But the problem is is that I think that

people don't want to have those

conversations because

um any answer, I mean, you're kind of in

and out the door. That It's really easy

to spot incompatibility there. So for

instance, if I liked someone and I I

didn't really quite know where it was

going, but I found out that they had

children they wanted children, that

would be an easy exit for me because I I

don't have a desire to have more

children. So I feel like sometimes when

people like someone, because it's so

difficult to date, they maybe don't even

they don't talk about those subjects, at

least not early on, even though they

should.

Um but I would say something on the

shallow end would be like, "What did you

do this weekend?" Not that that's not a

a great conversation to start, but, you

know, just keeping it very light and

airy. What are your interests? You know,

do you like different restaurants? You

know, like they're not really diving

into the deep important things that um

that are necessary to get into for a

long-term relationship.

>> How how long before you get to the

in-depth stuff?

>> It It depends on the person. Some people

are straight out the gate with that kind

of question.

>> preference?

>> My preference is I actually have a very

specific preference. Mine is just to

keep it light and airy. I think most of

the people I meet are on dating apps

and we already have kind of like, you

know, there's suggestions like, "Hey, I

smoke, I don't smoke. My preferences or

I have kids, I want kids, don't want

kids." So, that makes it easier,

but that's not always accurate. You

know, people kind of Yes, I know.

>> Can you tell me more about that? What's

not accurate?

>> Yeah, of course. I think

you know, you've got people maybe who

have a category of, you know, looking

for a long-term relationship and then

again, you may meet them and you can

tell like that's really not where

they're at in their dating journey.

>> do you know that?

>> I think by the line of questioning you

get or again, how shallow things remain

in in conversation or if they start

making sexual advances pretty early on.

>> Okay. I'm I'm a bit confused about a

couple of things. Okay?

>> it.

>> In my mind, there's a group of people

who will be interested in a sexual

relationship, figuring out sexual

compatibility and can still be

interested in a long-term relationship.

But I'm noticing that when you talk

about it, you'll kind of say like,

"Okay, if they keep things too shallow,

that means they're not interested in

long-term stuff or they or

offer a sexual advance, that means

they're not interested." So, I'm just

trying to understand a little bit about

how you get from A to B.

>> I think that the cadence of determining

that is very difficult. So, it's it's it

would be it would be easy if it was

like,

if we if there was a question that they

asked and it was like, "Okay, this falls

into this category." But you're right,

there isn't something could easily start

as a casual relationship and and end up

long-term.

There's really no way to

to truly determine which Do you know

what I mean?

>> Yeah, I I I get you that there isn't

like a So, I I I also am really

appreciating how kind of thoughtful you

are about it, right? So, there's so many

rules. Like, if they propose sex within

the first

>> It would be actually It would be easier

if there were rules.

>> Right, but there aren't.

>> like like three strikes you're out kind

of deal. Yeah.

>> So, so I I I get that. What I'm kind of

curious about is the way that you

interpret a particular thing, right? So,

whether it's too early or whether it's

the first message or the third message,

like I'm not so concerned about that.

What I'm really noticing is that you you

know, you'll get a signal and that'll

mean something to you. So, can you help

me understand that?

>> So, I'll give you an example that I feel

like probably most women deal with on

dating apps and it is sexual advances or

it is remarks

related to

their physicalness at at some point. I

think that probably most women would

prefer that the conversation start very

light and naturally progress to being

asked out on a date or whatnot. But,

what what we do find is quite often

times is that yes, someone could swipe

on you and someone may say that they're

interested in a long-term relationship,

but their initial conversation starts

very It is It may start being very

sexually charged and at that point, even

though

even though it says that you're

interested in a long-term relationship,

that's the signal That's not the

signaling that we're getting in the

conversation.

>> Okay. So, someone you know,

opens up early or I mean, you even use

the word initiate.

>> Yes.

>> So, like even first message or first

couple of messages.

>> Yeah. I'm trying to understand cuz it

sounds like there are

certain things that people will do that

sort of make you think, okay, this

person is not interested in long term.

How do you come to those conclusions?

>> [sighs and gasps]

>> I think that

I think it's really done through

I think the action or lack thereof. I

think

I think what women look for is a

pattern. A pattern of communication, a

pattern of consistency, consideration,

um

>> What does that look like to you?

>> It looks like this is one that you'll

probably hear quite often. It looks like

taking the initiative to ask someone

out. Um maybe asking them what their

preference are preferences are in in

cuisine, you know, asking if they have

allergies, taking the initiative in

and planning dinners or just taking in

the the initiative and reaching out. Um

I mean, the bar is in hell when I tell

you in terms of initiative being taken.

Um so I think that effort is super

is super sexy. It's super It catches the

attention because I

I I just don't see it happening very

often. So it it starts with that and

then it can continue with consistent

communication

um and continued effort and

>> What does consistent communication look

like?

>> Um I think it depends on the the people,

right? Because I think everyone has

leads different lives. People have

children, people have very busy jobs. I

think that it just means having

meaningful connections throughout the

day. There isn't a certain amount, you

know, there isn't a it has to be five

times a day, no double texting kind of

thing. No, it's it's what's meaningful,

what still makes you feel like you're

engaged with that individual and and

that's that's on a case-by-case basis.

But usually there is a cadence that's

that is established. And I say this

because

you'll notice it when it changes, you

know, it's less frequent. So

>> And what's your When would that happens,

what's your understanding?

>> My understanding is that there's a love

there's disinterest or there's pulling

back.

>> And

what do you think is making that happen?

>> I don't know. So, I couldn't tell you

because it could be that the attention

is shifted. It could be It could be

actually something that has nothing to

do with me. It could be that they have

things going on in their lives that is

pulling their attention and and maybe

they're just not in a place to continue

to to date. Like it They could be a

number of reasons.

>> And And if you If they start to pull

back, how do you respond?

>> Um you know, I think it depends on the

person. There's some people that I'm

like, I don't know that I was really

really fond of this person long-term or

I don't I I was kind of really still

feeling them out. Um there's some people

that I have a conversation with directly

and there's some people that I just let

kind of fall into the abyss. It just

depends.

>> Yeah, so so Mirabelle, is it okay if I

offer something that's a bit

challenging? Just sitting here listening

to you,

>> Mhm.

>> I can totally understand where you

started with like there aren't rules,

right? Or what I find even more

disturbing is that there are rules, just

no one agrees.

Right?

>> Yeah.

>> So so there's like people will say like

these are the rules and then like you'll

get the exact opposite rules over here.

So the thing that that I find kind of

interesting just listening to you is I

actually don't have a clear sense

of

if I was texting you, let's say

hypothetically, I have no idea what

right looks like and what wrong looks

like.

>> Mhm.

>> Loneliness is at an all-time high,

sexlessness is at an all-time high,

relationships are probably in the worst

state they've [music] ever been in the

history of humanity. And that's why I

made Dr. K's Guide to Love, Sex, and

Relationships. Let's talk about who you

should actually date. [music] Falling in

love is sometimes one of the biggest

mistakes that you can make. You know, I

started to do a lot of research about

[music] how to have like really good

sex. Visit healthygamer.gg/guide

[music] to learn more. Good luck out

there, [ __ ] Y'all going to

need it.

>> I actually don't have a clear sense

of

if I was texting you, let's say

hypothetically, I have no idea what

right looks like and what wrong looks

like.

>> Mhm.

>> Right? Outside of

uh making a sexual advance within the

first opening, right? So so so that one

is a pretty clear one. And and so I what

I'm really kind of

that's what I'm noticing is it despite

rounds of back and forth, I still don't

have a clear sense of what you're okay

with and what you're not okay with.

Right? So you're talking about feeling

Yeah, you go ahead, you want to.

>> So feels like Have you seen that game

show Whose Line Is It Anyways? Where the

rules are made up and the points don't

matter? That's exactly what it feels

like.

>> That's Okay, that's interesting.

So are you like pretty confused?

>> Yes, I think a lot of us are. I think a

lot of us are. We don't know what We

don't know what it looks like to date

the right way. We get information

everywhere that we go, especially if

you're dialed in to

to

you know, like to different people like

on Instagram and TikTok. There's

different thoughts, there's different

schools of thoughts on on dating.

>> know what's interesting is you don't

come across as confused at all.

>> I know, but I feel super confused. And

and mind you, like this is super

uncomfortable and I would I'll tell you

why, you know, I because I thrive in my

career, it's

I it's easy to have wins in my career

and so I gravitate to where it's

comfortable and so gravitating towards

my personal life and digging into

dating, it's super uncomfortable and I

can't imagine that I'm the only person

who thinks like, well, this is not easy.

I don't know what's going on. I can't

tell what you're thinking. I know what

I'm thinking. Am I Do I feel uh

um is this a safe space and can I share

my thoughts with you and how are you

going to receive that? And it's all so

confusing. It's so confusing um and it's

difficult to want to continue to dive in

um

when you're not seeing you're not

feeling the wins necessarily or if you

are maybe they're they're a little bit

short-lived. Um,

it is it is difficult. It is confusing.

>> Can I think for a second?

>> Absolutely.

>> I do this sometimes and sometimes kind

of awkward.

>> It's okay. I'm trying to figure this out

like I I understand it's okay.

>> processing.

>> I'm trying to figure out also like I get

I get what your question is and I

understand what you're trying to

understand.

>> What is it that I'm trying to

understand?

>> that you're trying to find

a linear thought of how do we know what

works and what doesn't work?

>> Uh

yeah, I I think that's not going to

happen.

>> Yeah,

>> [laughter]

>> no

no it's not.

Otherwise you'd be dating we'd all be

dating yours.

>> so so I no I mean I I think that's

that's it's clear to me that's never

going to happen. All right, which is the

challenge, right? And and I think I I

can sort of see why

it would be so challenging for you

because it seems like in so many other

dimensions of your life that is exactly

how you operate.

>> That's how most of us operate.

>> Right? So

>> Even mice operate this way. There's a

reward system.

>> Cuz here's the thing. Okay, I'm going to

let me know if this comes across as

blamey, okay? So

you're confused.

>> Mhm.

>> Someone's there's some ambiguous

communication. There's certainly

definitely knows, okay? But then it

sounds like if you're confused and you

feel like it's not a win or things are

not advancing at the pace, you're also

it sounds like very intentionally

stepping outside of your usual method of

being assertive.

>> Mhm.

>> You know? Um, and I noticed that like

that about you the the moment that you

walked in. I I think you're you're

clearly driven. I I I I got and I I

personally I mean I I liked that energy.

I thought it was like a really positive

like you know? So so you're kind of

stepping outside of your default mode of

operation.

And then there's ambiguous signaling.

>> Mhm.

>> And then you're making decisions,

though.

>> Mhm.

>> So

>> To take control, just like I would at

any other aspect of my life.

>> are actually taking control.

>> Of course.

Of course.

>> So so you sort of are [clears throat]

sort of coming out of the gate trying

not to take control, but then you end up

taking control. They send you a couple

of messages that are ambiguous and I'm

like, "I'm done."

>> It is Yes, I I do. Spot on. Spot on. And

that's

The thing is is that I don't I don't

have the reps in on this side. Like I

don't have I don't feel like I get

enough of the experience.

Um I've had enough of the experience to

know what this looks like successfully

to date. Whereas I know what works and

doesn't work

in my career.

>> So what is it like to feel out of

control in a relationship?

>> Um

it feels very

>> [snorts]

>> It feels very unregulated.

Um

>> Would

>> It feels very unsafe. Like very

>> Go ahead.

>> Yeah, I don't know. Good.

>> No, it just feels [laughter] very

unsafe. I know we can go any number of

different directions with this.

>> So so would you say that

you feel unsafe or out of control before

you end things with someone?

>> I would say that probably prompts me to

end things to take some control.

>> Yeah.

>> So um I I'm going to just toss out a

phrase, intolerance of uncertainty.

>> Mhm.

>> Do you find that you're quite intolerant

of uncertainty?

>> Yes.

So the the challenge that I have is that

I need to learn how to sit in that

uncertainty.

And I've It's something that I'm working

on. It's something that I have to

reassure myself about, like hey,

no matter what happens in this

uncertainty, you're fine. You're always

going to be okay. And it doesn't matter

how this necessarily plays out. Um

it's something that I constantly have to

look inward and remind myself.

>> Are you going to be fine?

>> Of course.

>> How how do you get to that?

>> Um, I look for

um, external

proof of that, you know? As But again,

this is all like um, I look for external

proof. I look for external proof in

everything. Like, okay, um I've survived

some of the most difficult times of my

life, you know, I've obviously overcome

a divorce,

um death in the family, um raising

children alone, being an entrepreneur.

So, all of these things obviously would

lead me to believe lead me to believe

that I have all of the tools that I need

in order to be okay.

>> So, lead you to believe.

>> Mhm.

>> So, I mean, you used the phrase and I'm

going to turn that off at home, but

okay.

>> [laughter]

>> Would lead me to believe.

>> Yes.

>> Right? So, the the interesting thing

that I hear there is

you're almost you know, you have that

stack of evidence, which it's like good

evidence.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm so curious about so many of those

things, by the way.

But but you have this stack of evidence

that shows you that you are a survivor.

>> Mhm.

>> But usually what I've sort of noticed is

when we need a stack of evidence, we

don't feel that way.

>> It's 100% true. This is not easy, by the

way. [laughter]

>> Yeah, let me know if you know if

like um

I I I I really think this is going to

help a lot of people.

I I I think that it's interesting and

hopefully we can help you a little bit,

too. So, I I think it's interesting cuz

even hearing you talk about it, I see

how you you'll you'll talk about some

negative and there's almost this

immediate response, right? So, I may not

feel confident, even though I should be

confident. So, I I can see that struggle

articulated, like what goes on like

literally in your head.

>> Yeah. I I I'm I feel like I'm constantly

trying to reframe so that I don't step

into the space and it be blatantly

obvious that hey, I struggle with

feeling confident in any other area

that's not in the a professional

setting.

>> Yeah, so you don't have to convince

yourself at all in a professional

setting, right?

>> Not at all.

>> Not at all. Okay.

>> I've had moments, but very few, very

few. Because I've got um I've got the

time in. I've got the experience. I

know. I've like worked my way through

it. Whereas you can't necessarily work

your way through figuring out dating.

>> Yeah, um I I I get a very strong vibe

that you're like a professional badass.

>> Thank you.

>> [laughter]

>> You know.

>> Thanks.

>> Uh

like I

>> You see how this translates zero to

dating?

>> Yeah, absolutely, right? It's got to be

so perplexing and so confusing.

>> It's like a It's like a puzzle. It's

It's

>> That you cannot solve.

>> Yeah. So, let me I'm going to toss

something out.

>> Sure.

>> So, if there's someone that you're

pretty interested in,

okay? And then you're concerned about

your confidence, and they start to pull

away,

are those the situations that you kind

of take control of the situation and cut

things off?

>> No, I think um I think now

uh you know, I um I've done a as you can

tell, or maybe you can't, but I've done

a lot of work. I think that initially

when I started my dating journey, I had

much more of an anxiety attachment

style.

>> Okay.

>> Uh anxious attach- Excuse me, anxious

attachment style, where I probably would

have tried to over

>> definitely done your homework.

>> I would have [laughter] tried to

overcompensate and like reach out too

much because I was like grasping on to

something that was clearly going away.

Um but

I think that I've done so much work that

I feel confident about the person that I

am and the values that I hold and what I

bring um

to a partnership that I feel like if

this person didn't feel like potentially

this was a good fit for them, then

that's okay. Maybe I'm not a good fit

for them, but I know that I am a good

fit for someone, and um I don't think

that if that someone saw that in me,

that they would maybe walk away or

distance themselves.

Um so I'm I've worked on it, and it's

don't say that I'm not still anxious in

some way, but I think I can sit with

that a certainty a little bit better,

and remind myself that

maybe that's just not for me. And so

more often than not, I do let things

just kind of go.

>> You know what's really scary about

listening to this? Is is that it seems

like you've kind of done everything that

you can do.

>> I feel like you have. I have.

>> Yeah. And then if you do everything that

you can do,

>> Mhm.

>> and it's still not working out,

>> what do you do next?

>> Yeah.

>> What do you do next? Because I think

no one really knows. I think um I think

that the people that we've got

that are that are, you know,

self-proclaimed dating experts, I think

that they're giving out a lot of really

bad information.

Um and certainly that's their

perspective, but somewhere

there's another me listening to this and

thinking

this is what I'm aiming for, and it's

it's inaccurate.

>> Yeah, I mean I I think it's got got to

be hard to, you know, to take as much

control as you can and still be not in

control.

>> you know, and it's it's funny because in

at work, I tell my clients control the

controllables. Like don't worry about

everything else.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> You know, like if your problem has a

solution, you don't have a problem. You

may not like the solution. I can't take

any of that in a

I think the control the controllables is

the only thing I can do. And and the

only controllable I have is myself.

>> Yeah.

I'm just going to sit with that for a

second.

>> Okay.

>> [laughter]

>> Um

once again, something that work doesn't

translate over, right?

>> No.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is crazy, because we we go to

school to to develop these skills. We

work on the skills that we have in our

professional lives for years.

You can't do that on the personal side

aside from self-development and um

but you can't you certainly can't do

that on the dating scene.

>> So,

can I go back to some of your earlier

relationships cuz I'm noticing that

you've been burned before?

>> Yeah.

>> So, can you tell me about your your

first husband?

>> Mhm. Sure.

Uh

>> Yeah, so you guys were Yeah, so y'all

you're 22 sounds like you give your

number to his mom.

>> [laughter]

>> Right? And um I can't tell if that's

cringe or rom-com worthy.

>> Uh I don't think so. I don't know.

>> Um

and so how did that relationship evolve?

>> Um you know, I think that you know, I

was 22. I went into that marriage

thinking like anything you can do I can

do better. Well, guess

that left me in the you know, steering

the ship and um it wasn't fun. That's I

think over over a period of time it's

it's when I realized that I really

should have valued my partner like like

I should have valued

that he was a partner instead of just

someone who I was maybe giving orders to

and I was running the show because I got

extremely exhausting.

Um and I think that that created

resentment and that didn't help, you

know, love where resentment is love

can't necessarily grow. Um and so it

just started to

wear down you know, the marriage.

>> Are are you okay with um offering some

color to that?

>> Um sure. Like define like how much

color?

>> like when you say you know,

you were a feminist. First of all, what

does that mean?

>> I think that that's I think that's when

men and women are given the equal

opportunity to anything, you know, like

in the household they can be they can be

the provider, they can do essentially

anything that a man can do.

>> Okay. And and how did that if how did

that show up in your relationship?

>> Um I think that it it showed up in that

I felt like I had something to prove.

Like I could do this better than you

could.

Um instead of valuing what what he did

contribute to the marriage. Um

>> And and can you give us an example of

what that looks like?

>> that um

I think that I pretty quickly

I I probably undermined a lot of his

decisions and started taking on more of

the decision-making.

Um and which is

>> just in the financial, you know, aspect

of our marriage. Um I think it very

quickly led to me taking on more

responsibility in terms of the finances.

Even um you know, most of the marriage I

ended up becoming the the breadwinner

and

um I didn't I didn't see that as an

issue in the beginning, but after a

while I kind of was like I I need a

break. This is exhausting. I don't think

that I'm meant to do this alone and um I

think that

but and again, this is all my

perspective, right? Um

um

I think because he saw that I could do

it and that I did do it, I think that it

created

>> He kind of backed off a little bit.

Yeah.

>> and I don't think that and and try as I

might

I don't think that I supported him um

like in in a lot of the endeavors that

he did. I was too busy kind of doing my

own thing and and and what I called

support for him

uh now in hindsight I think I probably

he was probably like a words of

affirmation type of person and I don't

think that I was really pouring into

him. Like if if that was the case, like

his bucket was probably not very very

full because at that point I was doing

mostly, you know, a lot of the things at

home. Like I was cleaning, I was, you

know, doing the grocery shopping, I was

providing financially. Um yes. So it you

know, what started to happen is that I

started getting resentful.

>> Sounds appropriate.

>> Of course it sounds appropriate. I think

in hindsight

I knew this from the beginning. I knew

this we lived when we were dating before

we got married, we lived together for a

year and that's when I realized

hey, he's not kind of carrying the

weight. He's not if I'm not here, he's

not necessarily motivated to kind of do

this on his own.

Um but I think that some of that this is

where I brought in some of my childhood

trauma, you know? Um yes, that played

into a factor.

Obviously plays in.

>> Help me understand that.

>> So I think that, you know, in my

childhood I'm the I'm the middle child

and not to sound like, you know, cliche

or anything like that, but I think that

my mom was a single parent. She had

three children. She was working several

jobs.

Um I think that my oldest sister was

super easy going, you know, she did as

she was told. I think that my younger

brother um was super funny and

charismatic and easy going and I was

kind of in the middle and I was a little

bit needier.

Um and as stressed as my mom was, I

don't think she knew she didn't have the

tools

and she didn't have the

the information or the education or the

emotional intelligence to be able to

handle what that all looked like.

>> Well, when you say you were a little bit

needier, what what does that look like?

>> just I like um I needed more I think

more warmth, more hugs. You know, more

time spent.

Um and so I I gravitated towards someone

who maybe didn't meet my needs on

a social economic level, but met my net

my needs in other ways. Like

>> And did your first husband do that?

>> 100%. He was he was very loving. He was

very thoughtful, very considerate.

Um

and um but he was not he just wasn't the

financial provider for most of that

marriage. And it wasn't until I think

I wanted to ask for a divorce and really

press the issue that he was like, "Okay,

I think she actually will leave me." And

so he he pursued a career and

and pursued that and unfortunately we

probably divorced like two after two

years after that. I think a lot of the

damage had already been done.

I think if I knew now what I knew then,

I probably would have still tried to

work through it.

Yeah, you know, sometimes I do I have

regrets about that because I think to

myself, because clearly, you know, so

now he's remarried, happily, you know,

remarried and I think that he's

addressed those issues, but I don't know

if it came from

you know, having gone through the

experience of being divorced and

understanding that that's that's that's

going to be a non-negotiable for a

partner. Um

>> What what's going to be

>> Like

providing financial, you know, or

meeting your partner [snorts]

where they're at.

So.

>> Yeah, I you know, I the number of women

I've worked with who are frustrated

because

their decision to divorce and or dump

their boyfriend allows their boyfriend

to get their ass into gear.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I I I've I've dealt with so

many women who are just really resentful

of the woman who comes next.

>> You know, I'm not. And I'll tell you

why, because

I just don't think that that was my

person.

>> Yeah.

>> don't think um I I think that I held

myself back significantly because I was

looking back and saying like, "Hey, you

know, like kind of catch up. Let's, you

know." Um but I also think that I'm just

happy that things have worked out for

him because he's an he's still an

example for my children.

>> Yeah.

>> And I want to see him succeed. I want

them to see

>> Wow.

>> something that's representative of a

good marriage and um

>> Damn, you have done the work.

>> I

who are [laughter] you telling? A few

ayahuasca trips and then some 100%.

Um now, it doesn't mean that I don't

have moments. I mean, listen, grief

comes in waves. I think for every type

of loss, for divorce, for death, for um

a loss in your career. There's moments

where I still have moments where I think

God, if I hadn't gone with the divorce,

like I wouldn't have to split, like I

wouldn't have to split my Christmases. I

wouldn't have to do this, but but um

like it happened for me. Like I would

not be the person that I am here today

had not everything that has happened to

me for me in my life.

>> And can you tell me about the next

relationship?

>> So that one I entered in pretty quickly,

unfortunately, after my my divorce. Um

he was much younger.

Um that one I think came from

that actually came from This is where I

struggled with confidence. So, I had

started losing weight whenever I was um

going through my divorce, and so I'd

shed like and I'm 4'11. So, I'd shed

about 35 lb, 40 lb, which is a big

difference on someone who's a has a

small stature.

Um but still I just felt like I hadn't

done the work. So, it didn't matter how

much weight I had lost, I still didn't

feel like attractive. And so at that

point, I think that I chose that person

because I was looking for external

validation

that if this person is attractive and

they're tall and they're fit, that um

then that would mean that hey, you know,

I am attractive because look at who I

could date. Um that didn't work.

Um we became really good friends. I

mean, I mean like I chose from from the

wrong place. Um I think that we became

really good friends. Um we had a great

friendship, and I think that that's what

caused it to last as long, but there was

differences there, too.

Um I certainly think that there were

things that

you know, I think that the

the infidelity was blatant, but there

was no way that I didn't like I almost

felt like if I'd looked, I probably

would have found, but I didn't want to

look because I was okay with what I

currently had, you know? Um

I think that he carried me through the

the end of my my divorce. Um you know,

there was a few years where I was

rebuilding. That wasn't comfortable,

either, and I think that he was a great

support for me, and so I think that

that's also another reason why I just

kind of it just kept going. Um

but at some point um after having

having really dedicated some time

in my career, it just really kind of

took off, and I was really busy.

>> Mhm.

>> And it was a blessing in that way.

Um he had an injury, and I think he was

on the up the opposite end, and he was

really struggling with that. He was

really struggling, I think, in his

career, and I think that

I probably did didn't do a great job of

providing positive affirmation to him,

either, because I think you know, I

think he started looking for it

outwardly. And I've had conversations

with him after the fact where he's taken

responsibility for it, and he's held

himself accountable, and he was just

like, "I was just not in a good space,

and you know, I went looking for like

attention." But it was enough for me to

draw the line and just decide that's

just not something I wanted to

entertain. I didn't want to I didn't

want to carry on a relationship and deal

with trust issues.

Um that just was a non-negotiable for

me.

>> So, I'm struck by a couple of things.

One is um

how many good reasons you provide to

stay in a bad relationship.

>> Yeah.

>> You know,

it it's it's so interesting how how

complex it is. I think a lot of people

will will see our friends in bad

relationships and will ask ourselves why

on earth is this person in this

relationship.

>> probably all of my friends were

frustrated with me staying in that bad

relationship for a quite some time.

>> And how would say more about that?

>> I think even in my marriage, I remember

when I told my family,

"Hey, like I'm exiting this marriage."

Um

you know, my family was like we were we

were trying to figure out what took you

so long. Like why

why you stayed so long. Um

and um with my ex-boyfriend,

I think that they kind of just tolerated

him, but I think that they

I I maybe just didn't always tell them

all of the truth because I knew that I

could probably get over some of the

things that I was making excuses for

because I loved the the person, and but

I knew that they wouldn't. And so I I

withheld a few things, but I mean anyone

with two eyes can kind of see what the

dynamic was. Uh they were incredibly

supportive after the fact, but I think

now as I've ventured into dating, um

I think that they

I think that they really pour into me as

a person. Um

and

>> What do you mean they pour into you as a

person?

>> like they're very they're incredibly

supportive.

>> Your friends?

>> My friends. Incredibly thoughtful and

supportive. And so when I think this

also makes it incredibly difficult to

date because not for a bad reasons, but

when you are shown um consideration and

love and thoughtfulness,

um I'm fulfilled. I I I do feel like I'm

loved um not just by my children, not

just by my family, but by my friends.

And so to go out into the unknown and

look for it I I guess look for it sounds

terrible because I know I'm I'm like I I

should be trying to like water my garden

and then let the the bees come, right?

Yeah, I'm telling these there's so many

different thoughts to this.

But

I I I just think that they remind me of

the values that I hold whenever I am

having interactions with someone.

Um and I describe them to them and

they're like, "Okay, you know, um or I

describe the conversations that we're

having or how things are going. Um I

think they're really good about

reminding me like, "Hey, these are some

of the things that maybe you didn't

necessarily like in your past

relationships and maybe just to kind of

keep top of mind."

>> I'm thinking.

>> No, it's okay.

>> How How are you doing by the way?

>> I'm doing okay. Feeling a little

ADHD-ish, but I'm okay.

>> Yeah, I

I I'm starting to get fear from you.

>> I am. It's really

it's really tough to like ex- I feel

like not exposed, but to really

to really dig into this because some of

it

I have no control over and it's the

other person. But

the other part of it it was it was my

own doing, you know, for tolerating some

of the things that I kind of did for so

long. So, it's a little embarrassing, to

be honest. It can be embarrassing when

you shine a light on it. When no one

knows about it, you can take your losses

in quiet. But, um

but it can be embarrassing because I

don't present as if I was a person who

would would tolerate this, but I'm

I I have other friends where they're

very high performers. They're like

subject matter experts in their fields

and they too struggle with this. And

some of this starts from like

from childhood and we don't you know,

we're working on trying to um iron these

things out and some of these things we

can do on our own, but some of these

things I don't know that we can actually

iron out unless

we're actually in a relationship and

someone's holding a mirror and saying,

"Hey, this is how you're showing up."

>> Yeah, so that's interesting cuz I I I

think so what I just heard is that

you're a little bit uh

understandably so, right? So,

embarrassed and or afraid of showing

that. What I'm struck by is how

I feel the exact opposite towards you in

those dimensions.

>> Okay.

>> I I think you do an amazing job of

actually showing people the complexity

of why people stay in bad relationships.

I And I know that and I'm sure that you

were judged by your friends and and

things like that, right?

>> did, they didn't tell me, but yeah.

>> You know, [laughter] and and and so I I

Like I said, I mean, I I genuinely I'm

not saying that to you

>> I appreciate it.

>> to to

kiss your ass or anything, but it it

really is like I mean, I I think

sometimes we grossly underestimate

what a relationship can provide when it

is not providing certain things.

>> I think that it has to hit, you know,

like if you were to look at this as a

percentage, right?

I don't know very many people that are

in relationships that they're like

hitting 100 out of 100.

Right? So, like some people settle for

80.

Some people settle for much less. It

just depends on what's most important to

that person. So, like in my first

relationship, having that emotional

support and that comfort and that love,

that was most important to me at the

time. I hadn't done any of the work. I'm

thinking like my 8-year-old self who

just wanted a hug.

But, we evolve, you know, that's not it,

you know, love isn't enough. Just loving

someone isn't enough. You have to show

up in so many other different facets.

And if you're not, then then you'll

start to feel the gaping holes that

there are in the relationship.

>> Mhm.

>> So, it shows up differently every single

time because every single person is is

different.

And we are different versions of ourself

as we continue to work on ourselves. So

then So then okay, so the first person

the first person, you know, I'm feeling

the this this love this gap, right? The

second person it was, you know,

validation, you know, and so that's what

showed up. That's that's what I dealt

with, you know, um

and so it looks differently.

>> So yeah, I'm I'm really appreciating how

important it was to be treasured. Right?

To feel treasured and cared for kind of

in in both of those relationships that,

you know, you talked about these flaws

that other people will kind of and it

can be embarrassing to say like I was

with this person, but I I I think it

really speaks to me about when a human

being needs something

the price that they will pay in order to

get it.

>> 100%.

I um God, there's this one expression

that I hear because my friends will

remind me and they'll be and or they had

reminded me or they would be like,

"Meredith, this is like very bare

minimum. What are you doing here?"

And I would tell them and mind you like

my mom is was a very loving person. It's

just that she didn't quite know how to

show up even for as an adult, you know,

she struggled with how to how do I show

up for her? So she showed up in the way

that she knew best to and that was acts

of service.

Um

but I would tell my friend who grew up

in a completely different family dynamic

and it was, you know, if you do not if

you're not fed love on a spoon and

you'll learn to lick it off of a knife.

>> Mhm.

Like here's what terrifies me about

listening to your situation, okay?

>> Mhm.

>> You have done the work.

It

you know, you've made mistakes.

>> Mhm.

>> But then you've worked really hard to

correct those mistakes.

>> Mhm.

>> And now it seems like despite doing

that, right? You you've almost built up

this arsenal Mhm. of resilience and

positivity.

>> Mhm. I don't need to go chase anyone

else down. I'm going to

work on my garden and let the bees come.

>> Yes.

>> Right? I'm going to recognize I have an

anxious attachment style. I'm going to

recognize that I was vulnerable in these

particular ways. You know, I used to

have something to prove in my first

relationship that I could do it better

than my my husband. And I did do better

better than my husband. And that was all

of these mistakes have been a part of

your journey to get you to where you

are. I don't get a whole lot of regret

from you at all.

>> Not now because I think that if you took

any of those away, it would take away

from me life experience to get me to

this point.

>> So.

>> So I mean I I and I think that makes

sense, right? So you're clearly like a

positive forward-thinking,

forward-moving person. What I also get

from you though is

>> I'm nervous about what

>> [laughter]

>> Sorry.

I'm going to just lay it out.

So

I think there's a certain amount of

persistent fear.

>> Mhm.

>> Um one of the things that I've noticed

is is actually how there are certain

areas where your language is still

actually quite vague. Which is an

interesting contrast. And I think if

people have been listening to this,

I was surprised by how hard it was for

me to understand some of the things

you're saying.

>> Mhm.

>> Because you're so clear in other ways.

>> Yeah.

>> So that to me signals a possibility that

we're onto something.

>> Mhm.

>> Um so and here's kind of what I I'm

noticing is uh there's I think a fair

amount of fear

>> Mhm.

>> towards making another mistake.

There's a fair amount of potentially

rigidity around

a certain standard that you're not going

to fall below.

>> Mhm.

>> Um you know, you used the phrase gaping

holes

>> Mhm.

>> when you're talking about meeting other

people. But when it comes down to what

it is So when you feel a little bit

uncertain, when you feel like something

is not moving in the direction that you

want it to move, um

it seems like you sort of you're like,

"Okay, I'm going to like not be so

controlling."

>> Mhm.

>> And then you kind of enter into the

relationship at not the let's say

communication even.

And then things start to feel uncertain,

there's some ambiguous communication,

you're very clear that there is no rule

to it, right? It's very confusing. So, I

think we're entering into kind of this

unformed space. And then it's almost

like, "Okay, I'm going to be out of

control a little bit. I'm going to let

myself go some with in terms of control

cuz I tried that and it didn't work."

But then when you enter that space of

uncertainty, it snaps back.

>> It's it's incredibly difficult to get

rid of. It's incredibly difficult to

say.

>> What is incredibly?

>> To get rid of the control that you want

to have over a situation where you have

none.

>> Yeah, so

when So, that's kind of what concerns me

and and I wonder if like I don't I don't

know if this is

Let me know if this rubs you the wrong

way, but like I'm listening to you and

and I have to think I know this is going

to sound [ __ ] up. I have to think that

you're doing something wrong.

>> Of course I'm doing something wrong. I

wouldn't be here if I was doing

something great.

>> Exactly, right? So, so it so it and and

I think that's doubly true of you

because of how much you are doing right.

>> I know. So, but where do you where do

you improve? What to Do you know what

I'm saying? Like where's where's

I'm a great student. Where is the

the blueprint. Do you know what I mean?

>> Yeah, so and I I think the blueprint So,

that's the clue. The clue is there's

really only one area where you're vague.

>> Yeah.

>> And so what that tells me is that

you know,

there's something going on there that

you actually don't have insight to that

you're not aware of because every

dimension anxious attachment style now

I've realized that like, you know, I'm

not going to chase after people once

they start to pull away. Like

recognizing that I was undermining some

amount of my my first husband's

financial decision-making and things

like that. You know, like all this stuff

that granted you make mistakes and you

[ __ ] own them, dude. Like that's

amazing.

>> notice how that all has to do with self.

It all has to do with self. So, all of

those things I can control.

Everything else that I can't, of course

that's what I struggle with.

>> What's the struggle?

>> Uh

>> [sighs]

>> I think just uh

understanding and knowing

>> No, I mean so so here's the thing. Could

you date someone who has a gaping hole?

>> Probably. Depends on what the gaping

hole is.

So, if I were to look at what the

hierarchy are of the things that are

most important to me, what is that

gaping hole? Because I think that I've

gotten to a point in my life where of

course I'm willing to concede on a lot

of things as I should. Every I think

we're all human. I'm not I'm not, you

know, like someone's 100%. Maybe I am.

But to not recognize that I wouldn't be

willing to concede um

on what that person's gaping hole is. I

have one, too.

>> What's yours?

>> I don't know. It depends on the person.

I think that mine I would probably be it

would probably be the um

the lack of vulnerability that I that I

can have sometimes. I think that

sometimes I have walls up and I think it

it makes it incredibly difficult for

people to to connect.

>> So, on the one hand you're kind of

saying

uh you know, connection is important to

you.

>> Mhm.

>> And at the same time

>> It's incredibly scary.

>> Yeah.

>> It's very scary.

>> Right? And and you you don't want to let

the walls down.

>> Sometimes no. I think that's where um

Who do you Who How do you determine who

is safe and who is not safe to give this

information that feels like it's very

near and dear to me?

>> Who who has taken advantage of your

vulnerability?

>> Um

>> Where did you learn to fear that?

>> I don't know. I couldn't honestly

I feel probably

family.

Um

I can't specifically say who, but I

would probably say that probably family.

Um

I think that a lot of these things that

I experience now are rooted in in in my

childhood.

>> What's your relationship with your dad

like?

>> He was not in the picture. He was not in

the picture. I think the last time I saw

him I was 10.

Um I remember actually having a

conversation with my sister.

And I was like, why do we have like

these daddy issues? What's going on?

She's like, well Mirabel, we didn't have

present, you know, like fathers. And I

was like, well, I am [ __ ] because I my

relationship with our mom wasn't great

either. So, what does that leave me?

Um

and I think that's I think that that

that probably express

gives you some insight as to I I think

I'm working I'm working against a lot.

>> Yeah, I mean, do you

>> got a lot working against me.

>> Do you feel cursed?

>> No.

Not at all.

I don't feel cursed.

>> I'm not I'm not surprised to hear that.

I think you've really taken charge.

>> No, I I also think that it's really easy

to pigeonhole and blame.

But now looking back as a single parent,

I have three children. My mom um my mom

had four, but she had one later in life.

I can now see how she was just trying to

survive. Like she didn't know. You know,

my mom had a second grade education.

Um

she she did the best that that she

could. So, I can't I I I I forgive her

for that. Um I forgave her for that

before she passed.

Um but it doesn't mean that it's not

like it's doesn't feel like it's not

still hardwired in me and that I still

have to do the work to constantly remind

myself, "Hey, this isn't that situation.

Like, put that to bed. That's not

you know, like 8-year-old Maribel is not

who needs to be showing up right now."

>> So, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm struck by, you

know, I had that thought, you know, do

you feel cursed because some of the

things that some of the people I've

worked with

when they grow up with your background,

right? So,

and then the relationship history that

you have, they feel that way.

>> Mhm.

>> And I think

you're wresting control away from your

circumstances, right? Like, you took

charge of your life.

>> Mhm.

>> Because if you hadn't, like, who knows

where you would be, right?

>> 100%, yeah.

>> And and so, I I can see how your you

become quite attached to being in

control.

Um and because that's what it took to

get you out of that and into here.

>> It also, I think, is what it took to get

me from being a mom who was surviving to

a mom that was thriving.

So, I don't I

the idea of relinquishing that, I

struggle with it. I struggle with it.

>> And and what How does that show up in

these So, by the way, how long have you

been

looking for a partner in dating

recently? Like,

>> You know, I would say probably the last

year.

Um

>> [snorts]

>> but um I So, that last relationship

ended 5 years ago.

Um and I would say that I would dabble

in dating. Like, I would um I I prefer

to meet people organically, you know, I

met people through friends. Um

but overwhelmingly, most of the people

that I met were through online dating.

Um

but I it's not something that's like

comfortable for me. It's not something

that I always look forward to. Um

so, it's something that I I sometimes

try to stay away from. Like, I'll, you

know, dip my toe in the pool and then

I'm like, "Okay, this is great for like

3 months." and then I go like it's

almost like it's fulfilling for a short

period of time, but then it's like not

really the center of what I've got going

on. And so, I just, you know, go right

back to what's comfortable, which is,

you know, the rest of my life, my

career, my family, my friends, my social

life, and

and that's fulfilling it until, you

know, it can be lonely at times. Um

and then that's when I'm reminded, you

know, you should probably put yourself

back out there. You should probably

try to meet someone. And um

and so then that's Yes.

>> I'm sorry.

>> No, no, it's okay. [laughter]

>> Um

Uh so what

So when you Is Is that what causes you

or does that what pushes you to date is

the feeling lonely?

>> it more like God, I I see it more like

uh something I have to do. Because

otherwise I'm just going to be like

not that I'm I feel like any type of way

about being alone the rest of my life,

but I feel like if I don't make myself,

it's not anything that I find

necessarily

pleasurable to do because it's

Yeah, so I'm on sales, right? So, for

us, we we follow up with clients all the

time. That's what it feels like to me to

be on dating apps. It's like you're

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> This is an unpopular take also.

>> What What do you mean?

>> Well, I mean, it just feels like I've

got to follow up. It feels like I have

to engage. I have to like put on my

funny hat. I have to, you know, like

show off my

my my personality and let's, you know,

like doing that with a number of people,

it's exhausting for me. It's not

natural.

Not for me. I'm much more of like a Hey,

let me get to know this one person and

see what they're like and then And so,

all of,

you know, like this dating culture of,

you know, online dating, like all of it

feels unnatural to me. I would much

rather meet someone organically.

>> So, I'm I'm now noticing more things

that I think are

Um how can I say this?

When I think about sort of the science

behind how people connect

>> Mhm.

>> I'm noticing that there's a couple of

things.

So first of all, it feels unnatural.

>> Mhm.

>> It It sounds like you're almost driven

I mean, do you Do you

>> I mean, let's let's let's let's think

about it. What movie What rom-com movie

do you know of that starts with like

online dating and that's how they found

their ideal None. Absolutely none. So

why would we like why are we

fed this propaganda that this is the

best way to meet people?

>> And and what makes it hard to meet

people organically?

>> Um

I don't I actually think that it it's

not difficult to meet people

organically. Um I don't think it's

difficult to meet people at all. Um

I think that

you know, there's um there's this like

running joke or you'll see these reels

um of women who are like um as soon as I

leave this house and I get out of this

comfy clothes, I'll meet someone. But

then they're like tucking into their

sofa and watching Netflix for that

evening. It's just It's It just feels

like a task to get ready to go to dinner

uh by yourself, you know,

um put yourself in a situation

>> effort.

>> It is an effort. It's an effort.

>> Do you have the bandwidth for that?

>> No. Most working professionals probably

don't. Working women

probably don't.

>> Yeah, I'm I'm really noticing how the

deck is stacked against you.

>> Myself or is it for women?

>> No, I mean like so you're you're

>> There's the stack the stack is Yeah,

it's 100% Yeah.

>> And how do you deal with that?

>> Um you know, I decompress in other ways.

I think that I look for connectivity in

other ways that is fulfilling and that's

how I deal with that.

>> So Mirabel, I'm I'm getting a sense of a

blind spot.

>> Yeah.

>> But when you say yeah, what why do you

say that?

>> Um, because I I feel like I have a a

blind spot. I feel like life is

fulfilling in all of these areas except

this one. It's like

And and it's it's noticeable. It It

becomes more and more noticeable, um, I

think as the time passes.

>> Okay. So, here's what I'm kind of really

appreciating.

You got a lot going on.

>> Mhm.

>> It Every attempt takes a lot out of you.

>> It does. Yeah.

>> You're also sort of

kind of trying something new, right? So,

so it's not only that you're it takes a

lot out of you, it's that you're kind of

intentionally like

okay, like surrender a little bit of

control. And that feels really like

unnatural.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, I I get the sense listening to you

that

you know, more than anything else you

just want to meet someone, fall in love.

>> Of course.

>> then

of course, yeah.

>> us do. Yeah.

>> Yeah, yeah, you know, and I I I I really

I really get that.

>> I think having

a partner

I I think is what most women want and

men. Um, I think it's extremely

important that it be

you know, someone who's compatible and

that just depends on the person. Um,

I don't look for partnership for my