Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day,

ladies and gentlemen. Hey, Joe. Good to

see you. Good to see you, man.

>> What's happening? How are you?

>> Good. Been really good. Just got into

Austin last night. I watched these

videos of you describing

this introvenous DMT experience and the

first thing I said is I need to talk to

this guy about that. Like that seems

like one of the most insane descriptions

of anything that anybody's ever

experienced

>> that I've ever seen online.

>> Yeah.

>> So tell me about this experience. So,

it's

DMT and this guy makes it and they put

it into a pump and it's like an

anesthesia pump that you'd have in like

an operating room and

essentially they can adjust your like

milliliters per hour dose like they

would use for anesthesia and like they

launch you off. You're laying the space

is beautiful. It's they hold the space

really well and they can

>> What do you mean by that? They hold the

space really well.

>> Like it's a beautiful space like it's

this amazing place where you lay down in

the middle of the room. It's like on a

really soft pillow thing and good great

music on and like it's it's very calm

and and these people are just

unbelievably calm and good human beings

um to take you through the experience.

And the cool thing about this pump is

that you can adjust your altitude. So

like you could be in the middle of this

and say, "I need to go up more. I want

to come down." If you need to take a pee

break, uh they'll like pull you down.

You kind of go onto the runway and then

you go pee and you come back and you

launch right back up as high as you want

to go, as fast as you want to go.

[snorts]

So it's five and a half hours.

And we did I did one pea break, but it

is it's DMT like the highest you can

feel on DMT, like the most you can see

on DMT, but it's 5 and a half hours of

that.

And the next time I go back, we're going

to mix Alzheimer's drugs with this. Why?

uh to see how much I can bring back to

see if it improves like the retrieval

like because you know like when you when

you're in the DMT space you're like I

have access to all this stuff like oh my

god I wish I could bring this back I

want to bring this back so bad

>> and it seems like we're protected from

bringing it back.

>> It does. It does

>> like a dream.

>> Yeah.

>> It's there's there's real similar

comparisons to the dream state and the

dream state is very strange. I I've had

like profound dreams and or or really

bizarre dreams and when I wake up

they're so crystal clear and with I go

to take a pee, I have a cup of coffee.

>> Yeah.

>> I can't remember them anymore.

>> Yeah.

>> I barely barely can grip them.

>> They just slide through your fingers.

>> It's like we there is a protective layer

there of something. It seems like it has

to be because if there was anything that

you experienced in the regular conscious

state that was that profound, you would

remember it forever.

>> Yeah.

>> Just think of a great thing. Just UFC

fight this weekend. I remember

everything. Oh my god, it's so like

drilled into my brain

>> and that is like nothing compared to a

DMT experience.

>> Yeah. And it's it it just seems like

I've never met someone who's done DMT

that would just call Oh, yeah. It's a

psychedelic. It's a hallucination. I've

never met anybody that's actually done

it and then we'll we'll just go back and

say I hallucinated something.

>> There's a few people that say that. I've

I've actually I've read this one piece

by this guy. I forget his discipline. I

forget what was serious academic and his

his position after I think he did like a

hundred DMT trips and his position was

that this is all being concocted by your

visual cortex and your brain, your

imagination. That was his position. But

[snorts]

>> I mean, why wouldn't you why wouldn't

you go to Walmart on a DMT trip then?

>> Target.

>> I don't think that's what I I just

think, you know, because it's very

disorienting and, you know, you really

should sit still. But I think that

there's contrarians.

>> I mean, like in the DMT space, why don't

you just see a Target or a 7-Eleven or

something?

>> Right. Right. Right. I see what you're

saying. Something that your imagination

could concoct. Like a dream. Like in a

dream, you might be a target.

>> Yeah. And you you had on Andrew

Gallammore. Yes. And he talked about

this world making part of our brain.

>> And man, that really hooked me in.

>> And during the six-hour journey

experience, whatever you want to call

it.

>> Um, at the end of I mean, it's DMT. Like

you're like it's just reality is gone.

Like you like everything, oh yeah, you

see all the stuff that you think is

real. Goodbye. It's like everything's

gone. And at the end of this, I I on

camera, I asked if I was dead 39 times.

Uh I wasn't concerned whe what the

answer was. I just was like, "Am I

dead?" Um and coming toward the end of

this experience, I was balling. I was

crying.

And it it just felt like I had to wrap

myself in some kind of ego in order to

just return back here to to come back.

There's no way for me to come back and

not have some little ego uh thing. And

it it made me so sad

coming back that I just didn't want to

come back at all.

You know what I'm talking about?

>> It's like Avatar depression times a

million. [laughter]

>> It really is.

For people that don't know what I'm

talking about, um, when the movie Avatar

came out, it was so wonderful. They

exper these people seemed like to live

such a righteous, peaceful existence in

the forest that people came back and

they they were depressed that they don't

live in the Avatar world.

>> Yeah.

>> It was it was like a psychological

condition that was it was happening with

so many different therapists that people

started calling it Avatar depression.

>> That's brilliant. And it's got a name.

Like in the 90s there was the Truman

Show syndrome.

>> Right. [laughter] Right. Right. Got

>> into that.

>> But I mean, how badass is your [ __ ]

movie and it creates a psychological

condition in people that wish that

reality was like your movie?

>> Yeah. I love that. It it it did feel

like that times

>> a million or whatever it is. Yeah. And

one of the things that I didn't know

happened was my wife was with me,

Michelle. And the night before when we

were at their house, there they just

said, "You can pick a vial." And I said,

"Let Michelle uh pick pick a vial." And

I was in the other room and Michelle was

with this guy who makes the DMT. And he

said, "Would you like to pray over this

uh DMT?" And Michelle did that. And I

didn't I didn't even know she prayed

over it. And the next day, and I'm not

saying there's anything here, but when

it started, the first thing that

happened was like these alien beings or

whatever kind of pinned me down on this

table and ripped me open like from

pelvis all the way up to my neck, like

all the way open. And I could hear my

organs kind of moving around inside my

body and they're doing something in me.

And the second thing was they pushed my

head back up on the table and they this

big drill bit went up inside my nose

like all the way to the back of my head.

It didn't hurt. There's no pain or

anything. And it was they were doing

that for probably 45 minutes, a long

time. And it was freezing cold. And then

after this journey, I told Michelle

about this and she's like, "That's what

I asked him to do. I asked him to fix

your heart and your brain. I have a

heart thing going on and I have a a

brain disease which is why I was doing

this in the first place and that was the

first thing that happened on the on the

journey. I'm not saying there's

causation.

>> Did you get looked at afterwards to see

if they did anything?

>> I haven't [clears throat] cuz it they

have to do a PET scan and it's so much

radiation. Um

>> it's like it's so much radiation I can't

even hug or sleep with my wife or or my

our our 2-year-old for like 48 hours.

It's a ton of radiation.

>> Yeah, [ __ ] that. What is the condition

that you have?

>> I in the brain I have measial temporal

sclerosis.

>> Yeah, we talked about this the last time

you were here.

>> Yeah. And I [clears throat] had a

seizure like the night before. Our our

>> This is the thing that you said that

methylene blue

>> was really helping you with.

>> You know how many people have ripped

that out of our show and like made

commercials for their their company and

stuff out of it. [snorts]

>> Oh, I'm used to that. There's so many

ads for me selling everything.

>> Yeah. from coffee makers to hard on

pills.

>> And if if I don't take methylene blue

for a couple days, I'll I'll go back

into seizure territory pretty quickly.

Really? Yeah.

>> Uh but I will say just to go back to

this dream thing that you were you were

talking about.

>> The way that I like get people to help

like understand this like if you're in a

I'll walk you through this really quick.

Let's say you're in a dream right now

and I'm just here in your dream. We're

chilling out, hanging out. And let's say

you don't know it's a dream yet. And I

look over and I say like, "What is that

UFO spaceship over there? How far is

that from your face right now?" And you

look over at that flying saucer thing.

You'd be like, "Oh, it's eight 8 feet or

something like that."

But then if I if you know it's a dream

and I ask you how far is it, you're

still going to say, "Oh, it's 8 feet."

And then I ask, "What is it made out

of?" You're going to say, "Oh, it's

aluminum." Or, you know, whatever that

thing's made out of. But there's no

aluminum in your brain, right? So like,

and then I ask again like what is it

made out of? And you eventually you'll

get to a place where you say it's made

out of me. It's made out of

consciousness.

Then I say, what is the distance made

out of? That entire 8 ft of distance is

also made out of your consciousness.

And then I say, well, why did you have

to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to

see out of?

And then what are the photons? Like

you're seeing colors and all this stuff

in your dream. There's no photons

bouncing off of stuff in your dream. The

entire body is fabricated. Your eyes are

fabricated. Like you're seeing all this

stuff without your eyeballs at all. But

you made up eyeballs to see it all

through. And then the distance like from

you to that flying saucer, you say it's

8 ft. The distance is zero. Like there's

not eight feet inside of your brain. So

kind of walk people in to show that

everything that you would do like not in

a dream like sitting here in the studio

to prove that this picture of water is

real. Uh you could do identical. You

could do everything in a dream that you

would do in waking reality to prove that

something is real.

And then you realize that the distance

between you and that thing is a made up

of consciousness and b doesn't exist.

Whoa.

Um,

>> does that make sense?

>> It does make sense. It does make sense

because we assume that because we have

tools to measure distance and sound and

touch and all those different different

senses that we possess that this is what

the world's made out of.

>> Yeah. And it makes sense. So like and

there's dream logic, right? So like if

you're all of a sudden riding on your

rhinoceros to the pizza factory, you're

like, "Oh yeah, it's normal,

>> right?" Uh so [snorts] the if you look

at like a galaxy it matches this the

shape of DNA. If you look at the tooidal

shape of like gravitational stuff it

matches the shape of a red blood cell.

You look at an eyeball closeup it looks

like a like a nebula.

And if we just look at as above so below

like any of that is even remotely true

then dreams might tell us more than we

think about what's going on here in in

this what we call reality. Have you ever

seen the comparison between the universe

itself and uh human neural tissue?

>> No,

>> it's bananas.

>> Is it like a

>> It's identical.

>> An image?

>> Yeah, it's like an image of the known

universe with an image of Is it a brain

cell or a human neural cell? I I forget

which one it was, but um when you look

at the two of them together, you're

like, "Okay, is this whole thing a giant

fractal inside of a fractal inside of?"

If that's what infinity is, you know,

infinity, we'd like to think that like

this is what it looks like. That's a

brain cell and that's the universe.

>> Good lord.

>> What the [ __ ]

>> I mean,

>> oh my gosh,

>> it's the same thing. So, it's if at

least it looks like the same thing,

right? Um, you know, when we think of

infinity, we think of what we are here

on Earth that there is no distance that

you could travel where you find the end.

that the infinite universe just keeps

going on. But it's way crazier than

that. It might be that the entire

infinite universe that doesn't have an

end is actually a part of a cell that's

in another being

>> that's in an infinite universe that has

no end. That's actually just a part of a

cell

>> that's in a part of an infinite. And it

goes on and on and on. Yeah.

>> And we have some evidence that that

might be the case just in the weirdness

of these super massive black holes that

are in the center of every galaxy. So

these super massive black We had

Michelle Fowler on the podcast the other

day. Fascinating woman. She's um um an

astrophysicist and just discussing all

the the strangeness of the universe. The

more that we experience it, the the the

more the deeper they look, the crazier

it is. It's like the f the further the

James Webb telescope goes out, the more

[ __ ] that they find. They're like, "What

is going what is that? How is that

there? This is not supposed to be

there."

>> They think that there's a real

possibility that inside every black hole

is a completely new universe. Yeah.

>> That it's some sort of a passageway. So

if there's hundreds of billions of

galaxies just in the known universe and

every one of those galaxies has a super

massive black hole inside of it in the

center of it. You go through that and

you are in hundreds of billions of new

galaxies all with black holes and then

you go into those [ __ ] universes and

you find creatures with brains and you

get to their brain and their brain looks

like a universe. And if you get closer

and closer and closer, you might see

hundreds of billions of galaxies, each

with black holes inside their [ __ ]

brain cells.

>> Yes,

that was well said.

>> It's

>> that needs to be a short,

>> but it's it's infinite. So there's no

end to that process. It's not like

there's us and then we are a part of a

brain cell of a creature. No, we're a

part of a brain cell that's a part of a

creature that's a part of a universe

that's a part of a brain cell that's a

creature that's a part of a universe.

And that's what real infinity is. There

is no end.

>> Yeah, I agree with that. And and we need

less certainty about this [ __ ] There's

so many people, oh, I have this figured

out.

>> What you said about coming back from the

DMT trip about how your ego tries to

kind of reclaim reality for you. I think

that is a genuine problem with human

beings today in which they cling to

ideologies, to political parties, to

ethics, morals, religion, whatever it is

that they they connect themselves to

inseparably. And I think part of that is

just being afraid of the vastness of

what this experience really is. And the

the way to shield yourself from it is to

pretend to be sure.

>> That's it. Yeah. It just gives me a

little blanket of I've got this figured

out. I know what's happening.

>> Yeah. Little little security blanket.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> And it's it's We need less certainty in

the world.

>> Yeah.

>> We need more people to say as far as we

know before they say some [ __ ] that

sounds sciency. As far as we know. Why

can't we just put that phrase in front

of more things? it if you're doing DMT

it just or if anyone does DMT maybe it's

a hallucination

but Terrence McKinnus described it so

well when he said death by astonishment

>> and there's no words the moment you try

to like label anything that you see in

the DMT space it's like you're

destroying it's an act of destruction

almost

>> there's no words for it they don't exist

because words are sounds that we make

with our face to describe known reality

And that is there's no words for that

experience.

>> Yeah. And we invented language for

trading chickens and and spices and

stuff. [laughter] That's that's what

language is for.

>> Yeah.

>> And if you just look at like one little

sciency thing like that's weird like

quantum entanglement

and then somebody says we can't explain

how this is like faster than light or

anything. Well, we can explain it if we

go to a dream and then say the distance

doesn't exist. The

>> distance isn't real,

>> right?

[snorts]

So, I I think that's I want to know

about the UFC fight at the White House,

man. [laughter]

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>> Was the temperature made make everything

different?

>> It was perfect. No, the temperature was

perfect. I was very concerned about

that. I was really concerned that these

guys are going to have to fight in the

heat, but there that was not an issue at

all. It seemed like it was in the 70s

and uh it was uh the storm like

miraculously just passed us like there

was all these weather warnings. At one

point in time, the fight was supposed to

start at 8:00 p.m. And at one point in

time, um one of the weather experts

wanted us to start at 10:30.

>> Yeah. 10:30 at night, which would have

been a disaster. 10:30 at night would

have been a disaster because it's a six

hour show.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, or close to it or whatever it

is.

>> Um, ex 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1. I guess it

was 5 hours, but

somehow or another, the storm just like

almost like went around the White House.

I mean, I don't know,

>> mysteriously.

>> I don't know what that is. I don't know

if that's science or if that's

consciousness. I don't know what steered

the storm or if it's just random luck.

It could have been all the above, but um

all my fears of the weather getting in

the way of the fights were they were

null. It didn't mean anything. And then

there was this long

sort of um ceremonial thing where they

had jets fly over and you know they

played music and all this different

stuff. So by the time we got to the

actual fights, dark out, perfect, the

weather was perfect. So that that wasn't

an issue at all. And it was just the

magnitude of the event. I know people

saw it on television and it looked

insane. Yeah.

>> But the magnitude of the event being

there live. So there's the event that's

taking place on the lawn of the White

House and that has 4,000 plus people.

>> The main event.

>> Yes. The So the the the actual UFC. So

there's there's uh a bunch of military

guys that are standing up in the back.

There's like a thousand of those and

there's 3,000 plus that are seated. All

these people are seated. But then behind

that, not that far, like a 100 yards,

200 yards, whatever it is. I guess it's

more than that, maybe 300 yards. There's

the ellipse. The ellipse has 85,000

people who got in for free.

>> Yeah. It's It's like in the whole White

House ecosphere, whatever it is.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. So this area they have giant

screen set up and they have you know

huge speakers and sound and so 85,000

fans are watching the fights live on the

screens and they can see the lights of

the [ __ ] this claw dome in the

distance and they can see the White

House in the distance where the fights

are taking place but they're watching it

on massive screens with commentary and

it was insane and you could hear them

roar so you hear the crowd from here and

then you hear 85,000 PEOPLE IN THIS

[ __ ]

you could hear it in the distance. It

was insane.

It was insane. Just the magnitude of it

was insane.

>> Unlike anything else we've ever done

beyond I I mean I'm a hyperbolic

individual and I'm always like this is

the greatest. This is awesome. Like that

was the wildest experience that I've

ever had in my 20 whatever years of

calling combat sports. There's nothing

even close. Nothing even close. It was

the greatest night of fights of all

time. And it was the only night in the

history of the sport where every single

fight ended by knockout.

>> Did they all?

>> Every single one. Seven fights. Seven

fights. Every one of them ended by

knockout.

Wow.

>> Which never happened.

>> Which is unprecedented.

>> Unprecedented.

>> Wow.

>> It was like the perfect experience for

anybody that had never watched the UFC

before to see it that way at the White

House like that. I mean, it was it was

nuts. A huge experience for the fans

that got to be there in the ellipse. And

I mean, the I saw videos these guys,

they were having so much fun. It's like

everyone's in there for free. You don't

have to pay for the tickets. There's

85,000 people out there. They're all

screaming and cheering and the drinks

are flowing and it was wild. I mean,

just absolutely wild.

>> What a 250th.

>> Yeah. For Wow. And and it's a sport that

was like banned just what 15 20 years

ago or something.

>> 20 plus years ago. So when the UFC So

when I first started working for the UFC

was in 1997 and back then you had to

watch it on Direct TV. I had Direct TV

just because that was the only way to

watch the UFC. That's why I didn't have

cable and then um Zufa purchased it. So

the Fertitta brothers and Dana White,

they they started running it in 2001 and

that's when I came aboard again. So I

had quit in '98. I worked from 97 to 98

and then I quit and then they brought me

back in 2001. And when that was going

on, it was banned from cable and um they

slowly started working it back. They got

it on Fox Sportsnet, which was the first

time I ever commentated for the UFC.

That was UFC 37 and a half, a very

special show that they put on for Fox

Sports Net, try to introduce people to

the sport. And so that was the first

time it was on like cable again. And

then they started getting pay-per-view

buys and it started growing and

gathering steam. But even back then,

like it was like you were doing porn or

something or snuff films or you you were

doing something that was damaging for

your career,

>> you know, and people would like look at

you like, why you're working for a cage

fighting organization. Why would you do

that? Cut to 25 years later,

>> it's on the lawn of the White House and

it is one of the most watched sporting

events in the history of the world.

Yeah. I don't know what the total

overall views are as of now, but I know

that it was like well over a I think it

was 150 million just by just by Monday.

>> Unbelievable.

>> Just by Monday. So that's like the night

of and then people that watched the

replay that weren't there when the fight

took place because they heard about it.

But now between now and between then and

now, now we're dealing with Tuesday,

like it's probably another 50 or 60

million people have watched it.

I bought Paramount Plus just to just to

watch it on YouTube.

>> I'm sure

>> I don't know, 13 bucks or something that

it was.

>> But man, what a hell of an event.

>> Yeah, it was an amazing event.

>> I I wish I would have stayed up longer,

but I watched the first few fights. It

was fantastic. The main event was the

greatest fight of all time. It literally

was the greatest fight of all time

because the guy that won it, Justin

Gatei, was in many books a six to1

favorite or six to1 underdog rather,

which is crazy odds for a guy that was a

interim lightweight champion. Fought the

best of the best. One of the best to

ever do it. BMF champion. I mean, just

super durable, real dangerous guy. And

that's how good Ilia Taporia is. That's

how good Ilia is. Ilia Taporia in many

people's eyes is the most skilled of the

new generation and the new generation is

the most skilled of all time and Ilia

was like the top of the mountain and

most people thought that he was going to

be too much and he was too much for a

while and he almost took Justin out in

the second round and then Justin rallied

and then Ilia it looked like he got

really damaged in either the first or

the second round and he was having real

trouble seeing out of one of his guys.

And then Justin started landing bombs in

the third round. Ilia had slowed down

quite a bit. It looked like he had

really tried to finish Justin in the

second. And sometimes when you try to

finish a guy, you just hit the gas way

too much and you can't recover in

between rounds.

>> And Justin recovered and Justin started

battering Ilia in the third and fourth.

And by the end of the fourth round, Ilia

quit on his stool.

He couldn't see out of either eye. Uh he

he had got kned into the bo to the body

real bad when he was on the ground. Like

you Justin like literally Justin had him

down with his two hands and just smashed

a knee into his rib cage and you could

see him go like that and that was the

end of the round and then he had to

retire on his stool and mean like

>> you think he broke a rib.

>> That probably could have happened but I

think maybe more significantly was the

eye damage. Both of his eyes were

swollen shut. His nose was [ __ ] up. He

had he taken so many punches to the face

and it looked like perhaps orbital

damage like maybe he had a fractured

orbital because his his whole thing had

just swollen up on both sides. It was

unrecognizable

>> and you know the guy hung in there as

long as he could but when you can't see

you can't see and when you're you're

that battered sometimes it's smart to

stop and he's a very smart guy and I

think you realize like there's I can't

defend myself right now. I can't see

this guy's smashing me. Let's call it a

day. This is what it is. Let's preserve

my body and my brain and rebuild and

come back another day. But for Justin,

it was like one of the most epic things

I've ever seen in my life.

>> For him to to win like that when

everybody had counted him out. He was

saying it was going to be his last

fight. It was like a retirement fight.

37 years old, been in the game forever,

you know, fought who's a who's who of

all time greats in the sport, and this

is going to be his last fight. And he's

like, "What if I can win the title at

the White House? What an ending to a

career." And that's what everybody was

saying like, "Yeah, but you're not gonna

because you're fighting Neilia Tapora."

He was like, "All right, we'll see."

>> Wow.

>> And he pulled it off. He pulled it. It

was It was insane. It was epic.

Absolutely epic.

What do you think the what do you think

the mindset is between somebody who you

know you walk in as an underdog and wind

up winning even though your skills may

not be more proficient than the other

guy. What do you think the mental

differences between them like somebody

who loses or wins?

>> Well, there's a lot of factors. One of

the factors is that Justin has always

been incredibly durable. I mean, it

might just be a genetic thing. He even

joked around about it like science needs

to take a look at this hard ass skin I

have. He very rarely gets cut at all.

and his he's like, I got these hard ass

bones and hard ass skin. He was joking

around like science needs to study this.

Um, and it's true though. I mean, he

really is insanely durable. He's been

rocked and hurt before and he's been

stopped in fights before. He was knocked

out in the last second of the last round

by M, excuse me, Max Holloway in the BMF

title, which was an insane fight. But

the guy is just, he has zero quit in

him. It doesn't exist. Like if you're

looking for quit, you go into a room,

it's empty. The quit room has no one in

it. There's nothing in there. He's not

going to quit. He can lose because he's

a human, but he's not going to quit. And

he's also been into the deep trenches

before, the deep trenches of these five

round chaotic, insane battles. And

oddly, he thrives in those kind of

battles. He's a guy he's described as

the most violent man in the most violent

sport. That's we've all talked about him

like that for years since the moment he

burst onto the scene when he fought

Michael Johnson

>> in the UFC at least. He just he's a

extraordinary dude. Just a very

extraordinary dude and not the most

technically skilled like Ilia looked

technically better than him. But it

didn't matter. Justin found a way to

land shots. Found a way to like

persevere from the early f early rounds

where he was in real trouble and just

shocked the world. It was amazing. One

of the coolest things I've ever seen in

my life.

>> That's cool.

>> It was [ __ ] amazing.

>> Wish I was there.

>> Oh my god. I I talked a bunch of people

into going that didn't want to. Like

Shane Gillis was thinking about not

going. I'm like, "Bro, you got to go.

It's going to be epic. It's going to be

a once ever thing. Not a once in a

lifetime. Once in anybody's lifetime.

It's never happened before. It's

probably never going to happen again."

>> Probably not.

>> No. But that's something you have to see

and experience.

>> Yeah.

>> And so many people are trying to make it

a partisan thing. like they're mad at

people for being there. Like, oh, you

support Trump. Like, it's a it's a

[ __ ] fight at the White House.

>> Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy.

Like, shut the [ __ ] up.

>> Just

please stop. And again, it's this thing,

the ego thing where people are just they

just want so badly and on both sides for

sure. You know, the right celebrates

this as a win for masculinity and

patriotism and all these different

things. Like, okay, settle down.

Everybody settle down. we should all be

together. And I mean, one of the things

that I wanted to do when we went to the

White House to try to push through

psychedelics for therapy for veterans

and people, you know, first responders,

people struggling with PTSD

is

you need to take these steps to give

people a path to change their mind.

>> I think that's the title of Michael

Pollen's book, and it's a great way to

describe it. Change your mind.

change your whole perspective.

>> And there's no better way to change your

whole perspective than a complete

dissolving of your ego momentarily. Just

at least for a while, just lock it all

away, push it out, and then you get a

chance to see what it actually is doing

and the effect that it has. Yeah.

>> When you let it back into your life.

>> Yeah. How how much of these clothes do

you want to put back on?

>> Right. Right. I described it as like

control altdelete for your brain and

then when your brain reboots it as one

folder and that folder is just labeled

my old [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> And you have a decision to make. You go

back into my old [ __ ] You be And

most people do at least a little. I do a

little.

>> Yeah.

>> But for sure you recognize that it's

your old [ __ ] instead of thinking

you are who you thought you were.

>> Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that

wasn't didn't really belong to you. Like

it's like we act like decorator crabs

all throughout our lives where we're

just kind of grabbing these little

things.

>> Yeah.

>> And you you realize that and I think

that the we just talking about this

politics thing. I think separation is

the number one greatest deception of all

time. The the biggest problem with the

biggest problem that we have and the

biggest deception that we have. It's

like we are separate. And the one thing

that you see and you do it some of the

and I mean this therapeutically. I don't

mean you like you're taking mushrooms

and going to going to a concert. Um

when you when you do this like psych

therapeutic psychedelics, the first big

realization you have is like, "Oh [ __ ]

this is all me." Like we're all kind of

connected. We might be one thing, but

there's something here that's connecting

all of us.

>> Yeah. whatever that is, whether you want

to call it consciousness or our souls

are connected or something.

>> Yeah,

>> there's something where we're connected

that we're kind of denying for some

strange reason.

>> And I think that that's one of the

reasons um I think you you maybe would

agree that we're in a loneliness

pandemic right now. Like we have more

rampant loneliness around the world than

we've ever had before. And if you look

at how this has evolved. [ __ ] I didn't

know it was coffee. Get

>> in here, dog.

>> Thanks, man. Gotcha. So, if you look

>> Cheers, sir.

>> Thank you, man.

If you look at this loneliness

and people are, you could stand in a

room full of people and still feel

lonely for so many people. The majority

of the world right now,

>> Yeah.

>> is in this loneliness pandemic.

So, what's really going on, and this is

my opinion, feel free to toss it, but

we're in a in a place that's becoming

more and more performative on a daily

basis, just fake, artificial, let me say

what people want to hear. Let me act how

people want to how I want to be

perceived.

>> Sure. And which means that if I'm even

if I'm a little bit performative, no

matter who it is, my best friends that

put my hand put their hand on my back,

say, "Chase, you're a great guy. You're

a good person." But in the back of my

mind, I know that I'm performing. I know

for a fact that probably not even my

spouse has ever seen me,

>> right? [sighs]

>> They can't like me. They can't love me

because

>> that's not me,

>> right?

And I think this hyperp world of I don't

mean performance. I mean like let me act

out uh this thing. I'm going to I'm

going to act a certain way. And cuz

let's look at if you look at our

ancestor, I had to worry about like you

and I were maybe eight nine years apart.

But when we were in elementary school or

middle school, we did some stupid [ __ ]

We had to worry about 20 people making

fun of us. And now we got to worry about

20 million. And that is a that is an

existential

difference between those things. So we

get better at hiding shame

>> and pretending like we don't have it.

And then what if now going back to

separation now this is what I call the

the disease of specialness of I am

special which means I'm the only one

here pretending and everybody else has

got their [ __ ] figured out. And then

that isolates you even further and not

realizing that everyone has this

everyone has this little crap going on

and like it the the fear that people

feel of like if I just be real then I'm

going to get made fun of. I'm going to

get rejected. I'm going to be kicked out

of the tribe. It's not real.

>> It's not real but it can be real

depending upon your circumstances. So if

you are in a very enclosed ideological

tribe and there's no

there's no tolerance for any deviation

from whatever the narrative is.

>> Yeah.

>> You know this is a real problem with

social media. This is a real problem

that

it wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm

like one of those old people that's like

back in my day, but when I was young,

you were allowed to have different

opinions. Like, it was normal. I had

friends that were conservative and I

would make fun of them and they would

make fun of me and it was normal. Like,

you kept those friends because no one

was telling you to get rid of those

friends. There was no pressure to be a

part of a group. There was no there was

no silence is violence [ __ ] There

was a bunch of people that thought

differently and you talked about stuff

and we weren't as informed. That's a

fact. We didn't know as much about how

the world works. That's a fact. But now

that we do, one of the things that we

should all be acutely aware of with us

spending so much time interacting with

each other online is that a lot of the

people that you're interacting with are

not real and not a small number. If you

are on X it, you know, look, there was

an FBI analyst that he before Elon mean

real.

>> They're bots

>> like actual not human

>> AI bots. Okay,

>> AI bots is a big percentage and then

there's actual humans who work for

organizations that push narratives. You

can hire an organization to push a

certain narrative. You can hire them to

support you or you can hire them to

attack your enemies. You can hire

companies that will artificially create

a movement of people that agree that

this person's a bad person, that this

project's a bad project, that this is a

good idea, that he's a good person, that

he's a good this is a good politician,

whatever it is you could. So, it's

you're not dealing with genuine thought.

You're dealing with [ __ ] And here's

where it gets really weird.

I think it's natural and I think

everything is nature and I think this

idea that this artificial communication

that we've developed through social

media is what's really [ __ ] everybody

up. I don't think that's the case. I

think this is a natural progression of

nature. The idea that our stupid [ __ ]

creativity and intuition and

technological ingenuity, it can bypass

nature, I think is horshit.

>> It is nature.

>> It is nature. And I think nature is

creating this convergence. It's creating

this very bizarre

convergence of humans and artificial

intelligence through a bunch of ways

that are unproductive and a bunch of

ways that are productive. But all of it

like gathering together in a device

that's like almost impossible to resist.

If there was anything else that you use

six hours a day or eight hour if you're

a good person, if you're good with it,

like a lot of kids are on seven, eight,

nine hours a day. Yeah. Like if there's

anything else like that, you would think

that person's got a horrible addiction.

But for us, we've accepted it as a

normal part of society. And that

whatever that interaction with it that

we have, that that that that deep

connection we have is only going to get

deeper. And it's ultimately going to

lead to some sort of hive mind. And

it'll probably not be a hive human mind

only. I think it will be a a human AI

hive mind. And I think one of the things

that's happening to us is there's this

weird like movement to

this is a weird movement to discredit

traditional femininity and traditional

masculinity. And there's this uh bizarre

overceelebration

of outliers of weird gender people of

people that are confused with their

gender. And I I think that's because if

you play that out, this is a new thing.

Again, I'm an old man, but when I was a

young guy that would did not there was

crossdressers, there was guys that got

off on wearing women's clothes. There

was there was there was always stuff

like that. There's always been people

with gender dysphoria, but there was

never like this. And this is also coming

at a time where microplastics are

disrupting our endocrine systems

>> big time.

>> Big time. So testosterone levels are

dropping. We're like, "Oh my god, it's a

crisis. What do we do about it? It's

natural. Our use of plastic is probably

natural. It's probably all somehow or

another connected to take us out of our

territorial primate bodies and move us

into some new stage of existence.

>> Like some postbiological

>> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I think it's

inevitable and I'm not fighting it.

>> Does Elon agree with that? Like we're

moving toward that direction? Well, he

most certainly thinks that we are moving

into a direction where we converge and

um I mean he said about this is what I

mean the dude's literally cutting holes

in people's heads and shoving [ __ ]

circuits in there

>> and doing a lot of wild [ __ ] with it. I

mean people are using their their eyes

like aimbots and a paralyzed gentleman

that we have had on the podcast was the

first neural link patient.

>> I watch that. Yeah. He he said it's like

a cheat code like he because he look

where he looks that's where the cursor

goes and he just shoots people you know

like he's shooting people with his mind

>> Fortnite on a video game or something

>> playing video games with his mind and

he's like excellent at it.

>> Well you got to think well eventually

you'll be able to move your body that

way and then eventually you'll have all

sorts of other tools that didn't exist

before. And one of the things that Elon

has famously said is you're going to be

able to talk without words.

That's the hive mind. We're moving

towards that. And this gets us into all

this weird UAP [ __ ] Like what are these

aliens? What are these experiences that

people are having? Like what is this all

a mass hallucination? Is it us from the

future? Is it us from the past? Is it

another species that's far more advanced

than us that's come down here to monitor

us and shepherd us through our very

difficult time? Um, whatever it is, they

seem to be what we're going to be if we

keep going in this direction. Our brains

are far larger than monkeys. Yeah. Our

bodies are far weaker pound-for-pound

than any of the other primates. So what

do they look like? They look like these

[ __ ] spinly things with no muscles

and giant heads. And they they

communicate telepathically universally.

Like everyone from all over the world,

every planet or every country rather

that's experienced these creatures, they

all say the same thing. They all say

they communicate with them

telepathically, which that's where we're

going,

>> which is exactly what you experience on

DMT,

>> right? and like you can get a a a test

drive of of what that's like.

>> Do you know that the original when the

the original scientists or I guess were

anthropologists or what kind of people

were studying uh Iawasa when they first

went down to the Amazon um they wanted

to call harm telepathine.

They didn't know that it had already

because the rules of scientific

nomenclature it would it already been

named. So they they didn't know. So this

substance that these people had created,

one of the aspects of it, they wanted to

talk, they wanted to talk to it as

telepathy, that they wanted to refer to

it that way. So they that was what they

were going to call it scientifically.

>> Wow.

>> Because they had experienced these

telepathic moments while on it, but

because it had already been named, they

weren't allowed to rename it. So they

just stuck with Harmonine. But Harmine

had a real chance of being called

Telepathine.

>> That's beautiful.

>> Wild.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And it it it just seems like

consciousness is coming to the forefront

of every debate right now.

>> Yeah.

>> The telepathy tapes shot out of of a

cannon. Like nobody's ever heard of that

stuff. And I think you had the director

>> or something on the show.

>> And it just seems like the level of

certainty that some people have about

consciousness is adorable.

>> Yeah.

>> Adorable to me. It's like we're these

little hairless monkeys and we're like

every generation is like, "Oh yeah, that

we didn't know a hundred years ago, but

now we know. [laughter] We know now,

>> right?

>> It's just ridiculous." And

>> yeah, but that's we that's the ego,

right?

>> That's the certainty. We need that

certainty. And

>> I think we're at a place where curiosity

maybe except for politics, curiosity

isn't really dangerous

anymore. It was like people got are

scared to be publicly curious or to be

public question something like why is

this here? Why is that there? Do you

know who Ignos Simlvvice was?

>> No.

>> He was a a doctor back in the day. No

idea what year it was but it was very

very early days. He was the guy who said

hey maybe in between these operating

room patients what if we wash this blood

off of our hands

>> before I go do this next operation?

[laughter]

and he got laughed out of the room and

then eventually thrown into an insane

asylum where he died

for questioning this thing. And it seems

like so much of what's going on with

like psychedelics research even though

like

document after document is showing it's

the most effective thing for PTSD and

anxiety and depression and addiction and

all this other stuff. And I'm not a

champion researcher in any of this

stuff, but it seems like kind of coming

out, people are getting the same

treatment as as this guy did when

they're coming out, even though like

it's been documented so well,

>> and it's still a a schedule one drug.

>> Well, I think now that's changing. And I

think there's an I think one of the

things that's changing it is the

acceptance of it by the right. And one

of some of them at least the old boomers

they don't want to let go. But the young

guys like especially special forces

guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind of

guys, they come back.

>> So many of their buddies have had

experiences and then recognize when one

of their friends is struggling and take

them to have these experiences and that

word's getting out. Sean Ryan's

responsible for a lot of that because

he's he's talked really openly about it

and obviously he has a huge platform.

Um, but Marcus Latrell, you know, him

talking about it and then Rick Perry,

the former governor of Texas, Republican

governor of Texas who hated marijuana,

hated psychedelics, thought it was all

just a bunch of hippie [ __ ] Well,

he had brain atrophy, natural age

related brain atrophy. And the doctor

said, "Oh, it's just pretty normal, you

know, standard. You're fine." Uh, goes

and does this I gain session. Comes

back.

>> Rick did it himself.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple. He's

done a few. goes and does this I gain

session uh comes back the doctor says

you felt like it's 25% improval

improvement rather in your brain

atrophy. So then 6 months later he goes

back again for another scan. His brain

atrophy is gone. It's gone. He says he

feels different. He thinks different. He

feels better. Like his mind works

better. So it's not just an experience.

Ibegan in particular, it seems to be

neuro regenerative in a profound way

that if this was a drug that you could

patent,

>> the pharmaceutical drug companies would

be all over this [ __ ]

>> Yeah. and and it' be the it's proving to

be one of the most effective drugs ever

tested. If you're if you're looking at

like efficacy versus like a sample size,

it's one of the most effective ever

tested.

Andy Stump and I just did a a show about

it. Uh we're talking about this stuff

and and he's brought a lot of awareness

to this and I if I think if we could get

a little bit of awareness to it, I think

we could cure a lot of this stuff. But I

think the number one thing is like is

there a way that we can help to get this

faster to people and and

>> they're working on it. Brian Huard and

Rick Perry that I mean Rick Perry's said

openly that this is my life's mission

now.

>> You know, really

>> Yeah. I mean, former governor,

Republican governor of Texas.

>> Yeah.

>> His life's mission is to promote

psychedelics.

>> I'm so glad.

>> Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another

Ibagane is the best one to start out

with because I has zero recreational

use. It's zero. You It's not fun. Nobody

likes it. It's not a good time. You

throw up. You [ __ ] yourself. You You

freak out for 24 hours, but when you

come back, you're a different person.

And if you're willing to do that, if

you're willing to do that, you can

change. You could you could do a lot of

fixing all that's and als maybe maybe

even more importantly be aware of what

these little traps these little these

little deeply carved grooves that your

consciousness seems to comfortably slip

into over and over again. Whether it's

alcoholism or gambling or whatever it

is, it seems to just shut those down.

>> Yeah.

>> In a very profound way that you can't

get anywhere else.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's just it kind I

think it zooms you out to where you're

like, "Oh [ __ ] I thought all that was

important."

Like you're talking about zooming out on

these galaxies and within galaxies and

black holes and stuff. It gives you that

perspective like, "Whoa,

>> I I thought I was really special. I

thought I was super important. I

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is one of the

things that most psychedelics do is they

remove that idea completely. They go,

"This is You've got to get rid of this.

This is tripping you up. You're carrying

this [ __ ] weight around everywhere

and it's really stopping your progress.

>> Yeah. And it's it's kind of like uh it's

like you're in a video game and then

somebody uh comes back and be like, "Hey

man, uh here's the way that here's the

[ __ ] you need to actually worry about.

You don't need to do all this other

stuff."

>> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Like a little

helper guy in the video game.

>> Yeah.

>> Guys, got to come with me. This is the

wrong room.

>> Yeah.

>> They're coming. We got to get out of

this room.

>> Don't do that quest.

>> Yeah.

>> That's That's what it is.

And I mean, I'm a I'm a hypnosis uh guy.

I studied all the brainwashing,

interrogation, uh kind of stuff.

This is the fastest way, I think. And

I've studied every possible way to

change human behavior that that probably

has ever been researched. And this is

bar none the fastest. And I think the

the one of the reasons that it helps

people so much and I I don't want to

this is going to turn into a two-hour

psychedelics discussion, but it's your

show.

>> I don't care.

>> Okay. Uh I think it's because

perspective shifting is what happens.

It's like it if you're looking at life

and you're you have this little GoPro is

your consciousness and you're looking at

this level, it just snatches that thing

up and zooms it out and puts it in

another location where you're like, "Oh

my god, I had no idea it was like this,

>> right?"

>> And it seems to be that that

perspective, just the shift in

perspective seems to be the number one

thing that psychedelics produce

therapeutically.

And that's the thing that like cognitive

behavioral therapy is is trying to get

done over the course of like 10 or 12

years or you know, however long it

takes. But it just seems like it does it

so fast and a profound way. And the

stuff is non-addictive, non-toxic. Uh

you're not going to see it's not a

street drug. You're not going to see

people out there on the street selling

like DMT capsules. And and DMT I would

say similar to IBAN is not recreational.

>> I think it is.

>> You think DMT is recreational?

>> Yeah. I think there's a lot of people

that recreationally do it. I think that

would be your thought, you know, oh,

we'll just do this and have fun and then

once you do it, it's no longer

recreational.

>> Once you It's too profound to be just

purely recreational.

>> Yeah. You've heard of people getting

banned from

>> Yes, I have.

>> Jamie and I were just talking about

this.

>> Yeah. I knew a guy who's a tattoo artist

who got banned.

>> And you can keep taking DMT. Like you

can go take 10 hits on a a DMT vape pen

or something and you're not going

anywhere.

>> Isn't that nuts?

>> It's insane.

>> It's like they just decide.

>> Yeah.

>> No, no, no.

>> You're doing this for the wrong reasons.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> I listened to one guy describe it and

he's like it's basically like you're

knocking on the door of a nightclub and

like the the [laughter] little thing

opens up. It's like no, you're not

coming in. You got to think like what

are they doing wrong?

>> Yeah. I think maybe going in with ego

seems to be one of the things I see

that's in common and and people trying

just treating it like a little

recreational thing.

>> The ego thing is a problem even within

psychedelics because there's sort of a

carve out that happens which I always

>> refer to as spiritual narcissism.

There's a bunch of people that do it

that somehow or another want to be a a

guru or a leader. and to show you that

they're somehow or another better

because they have had these experiences,

they know more and they pretend they

know more. They pretend they know more

and then they get a whole bunch of

people that are, you know, very

suggestible and those people sort of

listen to them and then that's how you

start a cult. And this there's something

Yeah.

>> to that. There's a specific type of

narcissism that occurs um from regular

psychedelic use when people want to like

lead groups of people.

>> Yeah. And I think if you go into a a

journey or two with no ego, do you know

what you learn? Less like you're less

certain every time.

>> Oh yeah.

>> About the world.

>> From the moment you get in there, you're

like, "Oh, how is this real? How how is

this available 15 seconds away from

normal reality?"

>> Yes. Yeah. And

I I definitely think that we're moving

forward. If we move forward with

psychedelics, our species is going to

move forward.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And

uh I think I I think all the time what

would have happened if that sweeping

psychedelics acts, the Controlled

Substances Act of 1970 hadn't been

enacted. If this stuff had been

available to people for the last, you

know, 56 years, what would that be like?

>> Yeah. What would the 94 Ford Taurus

actually look like? [laughter]

>> Be dope.

It would look like a 69 Mustang.

>> Yeah, [laughter]

>> cuz those are the people that were doing

drugs.

>> Exactly.

>> I mean, there's no there's no other

explanation in my mind why cars started

looking like [ __ ]

>> and music.

>> Yeah.

>> With Downhill.

We had some good music

>> because there's a bunch of people that

still did drugs. But there's there was a

giant change between 1950 and 1960 with

automobiles, with music, with

everything. And I think a large part of

that, if you really being honest, a

large part of that is psychedelics.

>> Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, you look

look, have you ever gone into a huge

mosque and looked up at the ceiling?

>> Oh, it's incredible.

>> It looks like exactly like what you see

on all this stuff. I'll I'll go no

further on that topic, but um

>> and just all the ancient artwork, it

it's very so psychedelic and beautiful.

It's like they got written out of

history somehow. And I think

>> there's a difference between drugs and

medicine.

>> Can we take a pee break?

>> Sure. Sure. Go ahead. Take a pee break.

I'm good. But I'll hold

>> I think it's the coffee.

>> Yeah. We'll be right back. This episode

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Exclusions may apply. Pull it up, Jamie.

>> I don't know. So, we're looking at uh

Jamie pulled up a bunch of photos of

inside of mosques and that that in

particular that is absolutely a DMT

experience.

>> So, here's the question.

>> Like I feel like I've been to that

>> right. How about this

>> location?

>> I mean that looks super DMT.

>> I've spent time there. Not in that

mosque, but like in that

>> dimension.

>> What is that? Uh one, Jamie to the upper

left. You just you you scroll up up left

upper left corner that Yeah. Look at

that. I this doesn't

>> What the [ __ ] is that?

>> Is that 3D?

>> Yeah, it does.

>> Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think

that's Alex Gay's place.

>> Is it?

>> It says it's in Iran.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Oh my god.

>> Well, well, you know what Alex Gay is

doing? Do you know Alex Gray, the

visionary artist? Yeah. So, his uh

Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, this uh he has

a real church that they built based on

his artwork.

>> Wow.

>> It's incredible.

>> Non-denominational.

>> Yeah. It's just like

>> like a Rothco like the Rothco chapel,

>> you know? He's one of those guys, you

know what I was talking about with

spiritual narcissism running a group.

He's the he's the opposite of that. Like

he's pure.

>> And his place, like this is his artwork,

but this is his place. And if you look

at the outside of it, that's the outside

of the place.

>> That is so cool.

>> So the outside of the place is basically

like 3D printed artwork of his that

they've constructed into a building. I

don't even know how he did it. It must

have cost a fuckload of money. A bunch

of people donated. But the inside of his

I think that is so he used to have a

place in New York City that was like a

gallery that was the Chapel of Sacred

Mirrors.

So where's that

>> His daughter does a lot of painting.

>> So that is it. That's on the Hudson.

Yeah. In the Hudson Valley.

>> I mean he's incredible

incredible artist and his ability to

capture that experience like that one.

If you go back. Oh, actually scroll down

to the lower left right there. The

Egyptian looking one. Lower right there.

Bam. I've seen that, dude.

>> I've 100% seen that. I've seen that,

too. But go back to the other one that

we were just looking at.

>> No, that's not the same. That's the one

I've seen. I' I've literally seen that.

>> I've seen that those and they move and

change and morph.

>> Yeah,

>> he's just able to nail it.

>> I don't know how he does that. [sighs]

>> He's incredible. a great one, he's a

good artist, but two, being able to

bring that back with coherence

>> to where you can kind of show someone

what it's like.

>> I remember seeing that face

>> and I was like in in the DMT space, I

was like, "Is that me?" And right when I

said that, the mouth moved exactly like

my mouth and I was like, "That is me."

>> Well, you're it and it's you and you're

everyone.

>> Yeah.

>> You're everyone and it's everyone.

>> Yeah. The It's the weird thing with the

mosques. If you go back to some of those

images, please of the mosques, the first

one that you pulled up, the ceiling, h

what were they doing? Not that one. Um

the the original one that you pulled up.

That one. Yeah. Like that's very very

DMT. So like what were they doing that

they saw this? And is that was that a

part of their religion at one point in

time? And has that been forgotten? Like

what is it?

>> Like why why did that exist? Go back to

the one. The first one, please.

>> It had to.

>> That one.

>> Those colors seem a little sus.

>> Oh, really? You think it's AI?

>> Yeah. I just I've just seen so much AI

stuff from last year. It doesn't look

>> could be

>> like the rest of them.

>> Well, go to that that website.

>> Up rather. I mean, the photo just looks

a little spruced up.

>> Go to that website where it says 50

mesmerizing mosques.

>> Yeah. If it says where it is, then I

totally say where it is.

>> That's in Iran. We probably blew that up

already.

Uh,

>> God, I hope not.

>> I hope not, too.

>> I mean, didn't Israel blow up a bunch of

like ancient Christian places in

Lebanon?

Believe they did.

>> I don't know.

>> Same place.

>> This is the same place. So, that's a

whatever that place is.

>> Is that the same place? Yeah, that is a

very psychedelic place. Okay, look at

that one. That's nuts. So, what were

they doing?

>> Is that 3D? Well, it's like Yeah, it's

like a 3D photo, so it's manipulated in

a weird way.

>> Okay. So, that's like an fisheye,

>> right? But either way,

>> the just the designs themselves are the

actual design. So, like what were they

doing that they wanted that to be

represented? And is that missing?

>> Cuz there's a great book called The

Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. You ever

read that? The John Marco Allegro book.

>> Yeah. So John Marco Allegro who was an

ordained minister but he was agnostic

and he was a guy that studied theology

and his conclusion after year I mean

even being an ordained minister his

conclusion was that like it's probably

not any one religion doesn't have it

right.

>> Yeah.

>> And so he was one of the people that was

brought on to decipher the Dead Sea

Scrolls. He deciphers it for 14 years.

He works on it and he writes this book

called the sacred mushroom and the cross

where he believes that the entire story

of Christianity is connected to the

consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and

fertility cults.

>> Yeah.

Have you seen like Jamie? Am I allowed

to ask Jamie to pull something?

>> Sure.

>> Yeah.

>> That like one of the original paintings

of Jesus was him with a bunch of

mushrooms,

>> right?

>> And and

>> Yeah. Well, the Adam and Eve the fresco

in France. So that Adam and Eve fresco

uh that's painted on this god I want to

say it's at least a thousand years old.

>> It's painted on this wall in France is

Adam and Eve and the tree of life. And

the tree of life is mushrooms.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's it's the tree of knowledge. Like

the fruit of knowledge,

>> right?

>> Right. It's not the tree of life. It's

the fruit of knowledge. But this the

story of it like that like what is the

actual reference to why in the Bible I

don't want to paraphrase it as to why

God told them not to eat from the fruit

of that tree.

Pull put that into perplexity. What did

God say to Adam? By the way, everybody

blaming Eve. Adam was the only one who

talked to God.

We don't even know if Adam told Eve. He

might have forgot to tell her and then

blamed the whole human race suffering

forever.

>> I didn't know that.

>> Yeah, I read I read that read that over

and over again. I'm like, where does it

say that Adam told Eve? It doesn't

anywhere.

God told Adam, eat from any tree in the

garden except for the tree of knowledge

of good and evil. And that if he ate

from it, he would surely die. You are

free to eat from any tree in the garden,

but you must not eat from the tree of

knowledge of good and evil. For when you

eat from it, you will certainly die.

>> Okay.

>> And what does that mean?

>> Right. You will die of what? Ego death.

Because if that's what it is.

>> Yeah.

>> And then the weird thing is that the

whole connection between the Amanita

mascaria and um the psychedelic book uh

or rather the sacred mushroom and the c

cross book is that the ammonita mascaria

is a red mushroom that looks like an

apple. And in fact, the term like

there's like confusion as to whether or

not the term apple is actually the

meaning the a red thing and then it

might not actually be an apple, but it

might actually be the original version

of it might have been the Ammonia. And

then you have to think how many

thousands of years has this been around

that it took how many different people

have translated it? How many different

people have passed on the story? Like

what was the source? What was the

original story?

>> And why delete it,

>> right?

>> Why? How does this get deleted so

>> like pervasively?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Around the whole world. And have you

heard the Christmas traditions as well?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Santa Claus is a

mushroom.

>> Wow. Oh my [laughter] gosh.

>> And it's the same mushroom, the Amonita

mascaria. The weird thing about the

ammonita mascaria is it doesn't like not

a lot of people have had psychedelic

experiences on it. I It's very weird

mushroom. Do you think it evolved maybe

over time or

>> it very well could have? Um McKenna had

some thoughts on it. They said that it

could be uh seasonal, it could be

location, it could be like where it is.

It could be genetic variations. It could

be very there's could be a bunch of

different factors.

>> And if you consume it by way of reindeer

piss,

>> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, not only that, people drink their

piss when they consume it and it gives

them like the second dose, the second

burst. So apparently the psychedelic

compounds come through the urine and if

you drink it, you just get a full

straight blast. Yeah. And reindeer have

been known to like knock shamans out of

the way to drink their their piss

>> because the reindeer are addicted to

this mushroom, which is why they fly

in the Santa Claus story.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

And I heard the story these shamans

would go around pulled by dog sleds or

something

>> and the snow was so high that they would

drop the stuff down the chimney

>> to these people and it was fresh

mushrooms or fresh ammonita or something

and in order to dry it out you'd have to

hang it by the fire

>> right and you hang it over the trees too

that people would put it on trees and

that's where the decorating the

Christmas tree is. Also those mushrooms,

the ammonita mascara has a microisal

relationship with coniferous trees.

>> I didn't know this.

>> Yeah. So that's where they grow. They

grow underneath the trees just like the

brightly packaged presents that are

underneath the trees on Christmas.

>> This story is

>> it's a crazy story.

>> It's like what did we what did we

forget? Yeah.

>> How much did we forget?

>> What's been revised?

>> Right. Well, just think about what we're

just talking about inside of our

generation. So, the 1970 Control

Substances Act, now that is a

that's a government that's uh

restricting the its citizens and trying

to control its citizens. And one of the

ways it does it is limit their

psychedelic experiences.

>> Yeah.

>> That's not the only time that's

happened, right? That's the Illoosinian

mysteries. That's from Brian Morescu's

book um the immortality key. Like that's

this is what they did back then. They

banned these rituals. Why? Because it's

very difficult to control people when

you realize that we're all one.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's almost impossible. It

doesn't work. They don't want to listen.

You don't want to do it. You know, you

start getting your lawmakers and your

military people start doing it. Well,

then wars becomes impossible.

>> Absolutely impossible at that point.

That's me. I'm I'm hurting myself,

right? Doing all of that.

>> Exactly. Yeah.

>> And it's insane.

>> It is insane. It it I want to I wish

there was like on a Google doc how you

can look at revision history. I wish

there was something like that for our

race, our species.

>> Right. Right.

>> Just so much has been changed and

modified and and we have historians, but

we don't they're they're studying

something that's been permitted and

something that's been officially

released. And

this is more certainty. It's just more

certainty. like, "Oh, oh, that reindeer

story, that's [ __ ] cuz I got this

book from

>> Yeah, they don't know. It's [ __ ]

>> Likensstein or, you know, whatever

[clears throat] from this historian."

>> Just plead to authority that you have

the answers, [ __ ] You don't have the

answers. Yeah,

>> you definitely don't. You can't It's not

possible. You can't have those answers.

>> Yeah.

And we're we're in an age where this is

proving to help with so many other

things. And it's not just depression,

but it's like Alzheimer's, dementia,

Parkinson's, myastthenia, gravis,

multiple sclerosis,

um, autism, it's helping with.

>> Yeah.

>> Would you see that woman that had

dementia that took five grams of

mushrooms and slept for like 19 hours

and woke up and then she could talk?