I think too many people quit too early

and we give oursel the options in the

parachutes and things like relationships

and work self-help and we pull at some

when we could still be flying even

though maybe rocky flight we pull it

early and okay it's a safe move got down

to the ground what I was building didn't

last but most of the time it could if

you'd hung in there but if you have any

ambition resistance is going to come and

so own that

>> Matthew

>> Matthew

>> Matthew Mah

>> you've been able to climb to the very

top of the mountain again and again and

again. Is this natural talent or is

there anything transferable?

>> First to look at what's in your DNA.

Like I wanted to play basketball, but no

matter how hard I worked, I was not the

fastest nor the biggest. To look at what

do you have an innate ability for? Then

what are you willing to hustle for? And

this is very important because some of

us have innate ability, but we don't

work for it. We grew up hardcore on

hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in

my household and no TV. Mom would always

say, "Why are you going to watch someone

doing something when you can go out in

the world and do it yourself?" And then

number three, endurance. I remember this

one time when I told my agent, "What I

want to do is dramas, no more romcoms."

And this $8 million offer comes in,

comedy. I read it. I said, "No, thank

you." I come back with a $12 million

offer. No thanks. $14.5 million offer. I

said, "Let me read that again."

Ultimately said, "No, I just bought

myself a one-way ticket out of

Hollywood." About 20 months after offers

came in, would those have come if id

have never stepped out? No.

>> No. Number four. If you do this, you're

most likely going to have some success

in life and that is you.

>> And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?

>> So he shared great wisdom with me when I

was seeking out male mentors.

>> We reached out to Bill and he wrote this

letter for you. He said, "Dear Matthew,

wow.

Are you able to share what you were

seeking guidance from him about?

[Music]

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[Music]

Matthew,

you're a

particularly surprisingly

artistic, creative,

wise,

yet materially successful individual.

And it wasn't until I dove deeper into

your story that I started to understand

why that was why you are to me in my

mind such an anomaly because you are you

seem to be several things that don't

often appear in the same place. So my

first question to you is what do I need

to understand about your earliest

context to understand

who you are, the values you have and the

perspective that you view the world

with?

>> Fun question.

earliest on

basic values

of respect yourself, respect others,

give a damn about yourself, give a damn

about others. Combined with a mother

that wherever we went

in the world that we might have been a

little nervous to take a risk at, she

was like, "Don't walk in there like you

want to buy the place. Walk in like you

own it." So a a sort of boosting up of

what you could say is massive ego but

also you were not allowed to walk on

your proverbial toes in our family. you

were brought down. And if anyone

in our family, if anything, I would say

going back, I think mom, mom and dad

maybe could have been a little more

lenient with the successes that we had

and let when we did parade, when my

brother did win the the track meet and

walk through the house like this to

allow him to do that and and and you

weren't allowed to. You weren't allowed

to do that. You were immediately

humbled. No matter if you were coming

right off a victory or a win or a box

office hit, you weren't allowed to. At

the same time, you were raised up once

you were humbled. Um,

that balance. We were taught resilience.

Heavy heavy duty resilience. Baseline

gratitude.

Quit asking me for new shoes. I'm going

to introduce you to the kid with no

feet. Well, okay. Like sobering. These

were were these apherisms from my

mother. Yeah, but they were pounded into

us. All right. At the same time,

I was spent 36 years thinking I was

little Mr. Texas cuz my mom told me I

was until 36 years later I look at the

trophy and it says I was runner up and I

go, "Oh, mom was like overselling us to

ourselves at the same time. You better

be humble." So, it was almost like that

the out anything exterior

should not give you your identity. Even

though my mom's maliprop and fibbing to

us going, "You're little Mr. Texas." Or,

"Here, write this poem. I know you

didn't write it, but it's really good.

So, turn that in for the seventh grade

poetry contest." Okay. And I win.

It's true story.

Um, so this outlaw logic of my mom and

my dad also with work ethic. Hustle,

hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my

household.

Sin. I saw my dad asleep one time in my

life. I got up at 8:00 on a Saturday

morning and looked pee went through the

kitchen and peaked and I saw him

sleeping. I went and woke up my

brother's like, "Dude, what dad's still

asleep?"

He actually died 2 and a half months

later.

And connected that idea that, oh, if he

slept in that late, he must have not

been feeling well. If it was daylight,

you couldn't be inside.

There's a fierce sense of independence.

Hour, 30 minutes TV a night max. Mom

would always say, "Why are you going to

watch someone doing something when you

can go out in the world and do it

yourself? Turn that damn thing off. Get

outside." You had to be outside. Like,

go get out in the world. Go hustle.

Figure it out. Be home in the dark. That

was just the understood rule.

>> What about love?

>> We always knew we were loved. There's

never a question that we were loved as

as loving our each other, loving mom and

dad, being loved by mom and dad, and

make and mom would always keep on to

make sure you're loving yourself.

I remember breakups, heartbroken. She'd

let she'd let us mourn. She was a great

ear, very sensitive ear to that kind of

to pains like that, broken hearts.

But only for a day.

After a day, she'd crank up the AC/DC,

man, and go like, "Now, get up. You're

worth it." Her loss. Come on. Get out of

bed. Uh-uh. Come on. Uhuh. Quit moping.

Lift your head up. Come on. Come on,

buddy. We got this. Uh-uh. Her loss. To

give you the day. No more than that.

Our love in the family was physical.

My mom and dad

married three times, divorced twice to

each other.

They

fought. I got a great story in green

lights of them fighting and my mom

bashing and breaking my dad's nose with

the phone, him getting angry, her

pulling a chef's knife out, him dancing

around, dodging these blades and then

grabbing a ketchup bottle and

like a matador going touche

and splattering over with it and she's

getting it out of us just getting so

damn I'll cut you from your pocket.

touch. And finally her getting so

frustrated, throwing the knife down,

crying, both of them crying, coming

together, embracing, going to the floor

on the lolium kitchen floor and making

love,

no grudges,

no grounding.

You get in trouble, which we did.

one, we were always guilty when we got

in trouble,

but it was corporal. It was take your

licks. Get it over with. Take your

licks. We're not going to ground you

because that'd be taking away your time

and your time is the most valuable thing

you got. So, take it. Take your licks.

You're not going to get injured. It's

going to hurt. And don't yell cuz if you

yell more than licks, you're going to

get another one.

>> Licks.

>> Licks with a belt.

I can't, I hate, and lying were three

things that you got in trouble for.

If I said I can't, my dad's teeth would

just start to go,

"Excuse me? You sure you're not just

having trouble?"

I remember this one time I was going out

to do my chores Saturday morning to mow

the lawn and I I couldn't get the damn

lawn mower to start. Checked everything,

couldn't get it to start. I'm going

inside. I said, "Dad, can you help me

out? I I can't get the lawn mower

started." And he turned around, saw his

molders. What?

And he got up, walked with me through

the kitchen, through the garage, out the

backyard, went to the lawnmower, messed

around, pulled a couple things out.

After about 10 minutes, boom, cranked

it. And while the lawnmower was running

right there,

he came over to me and bent down and

looked me. He goes, "See, son,

you were just having trouble."

I said, "I hate you to my brother." cuz

I heard the word at school and I thought

it could make me feel like I was older.

I thought it was like a a teenage soap

opera thing and I was only nine. So I

threw it out there one day at my own

birthday party. My own birthday party. I

said to her, "I hate you." And my mom

stopped the entire party. 40 kids my age

in the backyard. Stopped it. My birthday

stopped it. Pulled me around the side of

the house and he said, "What did you

say?" You don't ever use that word

especially to someone in your family.

Gave me licks on the side of the house

and then went around dry your tears

resume birthday party's back on. Don't

ever use that word especially to someone

in your family. So what did I learn from

don't say can't that

unable to do something you can even if

you can't pull it off you can go find

help which means you were just having

trouble. What I learned from getting a

butt whoop him for saying I hate you to

my brother. Well, what I was learning is

the antonyms to those words because

saying I can't, lying, and saying I hate

you were bringing me pain. So, the

opposite must bring pleasure, right?

Tell the truth, love, and believe that

you can. Those were the values, how I

remember them getting instilled in me.

And to this day,

I still have them. Trying to transfer to

my kids as well in a different way than

my parents did. But I still not even

intellectually have them. I have they're

in my they're in my being now. So the

the the the love was tough. The love was

phys. We hugged

999 times more than we more than the the

the hands soothed much more than they

hurt. 999 times out of a thousand. But

it was a we were a physical hugging

loving family. You always went to bed

with an I love you and a kiss. Even if

it was ritual, which it was,

like a Sunday service, gotta wake up.

Even if I'm not listening to the damn

preacher, I'm being subconsciously

reminded that you should take a day out

of the week to be at the most number

two. That you should go get humbled and

say thank you to a higher power and

thank you for the things that you have

in your life and thank you for the

people you have in your life and helping

those people double down on those great

attributes that they have.

So the the love was all there that I'm

happy to say that all the I have people,

you know, after that story I told about

my mom and dad with the knife and the

ketchup. People come, "Oh my god, I'm so

sorry about your childhood. Oh my god,

have you had therapy?" I'm like, "No,

and before you please, if you don't

mind,

don't you feel I feel like you're

trespassing a little bit by giving by

coming out of the gate saying, "Oh my

god, you were abused." No, I wasn't

abused.

And I never felt like I wasn't loved

again. I felt like I let my parents down

those times.

I did I fear my parents? Yep.

Are there a lot of things I did not do

as a kid that I should not have done for

fear of the consequences? Yep.

We knew we were loved. I knew I was

loved. My brothers knew they were loved.

My second brother's adopted. He knew he

was loved. And it was hard love. And it

was tough love. And my mom and dad's

love was passionate love. Um, I mean,

divorced twice, married three times is a

pretty good example of can't live with

you, can't live without you. The one

thing I remember being crystal clear to

me when I was 8 years old,

shaking hands with these two guys that

turned out now later in life, I know

they were actually dad's collectors.

I shook their hand. Oak Forest Country

Club parking lot. Sun was down in my

eyes. They had shades on. I asked her,

"Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet

you, sir." I remember my eight-year-old

mind going, you know, everyone that my

dad's making me say sir to. The one

common denominator besides being older

men is they're all fathers. And in my

head, I went like, "Oh, that's what

success is.

If you become a father, you've

succeeded." And that was in my

8-year-old, that was the math I did in

my 8-year-old mind, and it stuck with

me. So, the one thing I always knew was

I wanted to be was a dad. I meet Camila,

fall in love,

we make three children. I got to 17, 15,

12.

There's nothing

that I can put ahead of. There's there's

let me put it this way. There's no time

that I spend being a father that I do

not feel like that is the absolute best

time I could be spending.

>> You've had that since you were eight.

Yeah,

>> I've never heard that before.

>> I longed for that. I thought that was

when you made it.

>> Outside of wanting to be a father at 8

years old, which is fascinating to me

and something I want I do want to talk

more about because I think that's a lost

uh goal in society unfortunately is at

that age when you sort of in your

adolescent years if ID asked you at the

time what you want to be when you're

older in a professional context, what

what would your answer have been? 15 16

years old.

>> Washington [ __ ] running back.

But coming about 16, as I started to

find out playing football that I was not

the fastest nor the biggest, um, it then

became probably

I don't know if I really want to be

this, but I sure am told I'm a I'm a I'm

really good at debate. I'm a really good

debater.

I would win over arguments with the

family when it would be like where to go

or, you know, if I could go out and why.

I would have a great presentation.

Parents were like, "Geez." And they'd

give us the floor. Go ahead. take the

floor. Let's hear let's let's hear your

argument. And I they'd be like, "Damn."

And so the the word around 15 16 was

like, "You got to go to law school,

buddy. Go to go be a lawyer. Be be the

family of lawyer, man. God dang, man.

You're really good argue. You make great

arguments." And if it's not a great

argument, damn, you got endurance.

You'll just outlast people. And that

became the thing. So I started to enjoy

that. And that's where I was headed

toward towards law school. And I was um

I was reading about your youth exchange

in Australia

and that you'd struggled a little bit in

in class and you were skipping class to

read poems.

>> Yeah.

>> By Lord Byron.

>> Yeah.

>> So I just I I had graduated high school

at home in Long View in America. And at

18 I just turned 18. 18 in my family was

freedom. If if you hadn't remember this,

if you hadn't learned it yet, you ain't

going to learn it. 18 was now

no curfew.

You've got it. You've got it. Come on

when you want. Do what you want. D. And

I was rolling. I I straight A's. Mom and

dad are happy. I got a job on the

weekends and after school. I got 45

bucks cash in my pocket every day. I got

a car. It's paid for. I'm dating the

best looking girl at my school. Seeing

the girl at the other school. Oh, I got

to playing golf. I got a four handicap.

I've had two holes and ones. I got no

curfew. Talk about green lights. I'm

rolling.

I don't know what I want to do when I

get out of high school exactly, but law

school's coming up. But you know what?

My mom goes, "What about Shane student?"

Sweden and Australia were the two. And I

chose Australia cuz said speak English

and maybe El McFersonson's over there.

18-year-old mind, right? Thinking,

right? So boom, I go to Australia.

I was told I was going to be living on

the outskirts of Sydney, which sounded

exciting to me. It was not the it was

the outskirts, but it was three and a

half hours from there. And it was in a

very small town of population 305 people

of Warner Bale. And I remember pulling

up that gravel driveway with that host

family.

And when the breaks, they're like,

"Welcome to Australia, mate." I was

like,

"All right, not what I thought, but I

can make this work." All of a sudden, I

don't have my car. I ain't got my

girlfriend. I want to go see on the

other side of town. I don't have my golf

clubs. I ain't got money in my pocket.

And I got a 10 p.m. curfew even on

Friday and Saturday night.

I'm going to school again. So, I feel

like I'm going in reverse socially. None

of the friends at the school. They put

me in my junior year over there because

I went mid- semester and they wanted me

to go first half of the year with the

juniors so I could carry on the second

half of my year with what would become

seniors. So, I'm going I feel like I'm

going backwards socially. No one's got a

no one's got a car.

Their interests seem to be different.

The teachers are

not they're I'm I'm failing. They're

giving me Fs and everything. So I start

skipping this class, going to the

library and I find Lord Byron

and I got my Walkman and I remember I

had YouTube's Rattle and Hum on

cassette. I had Maxi Priest. Maxi

Priest, he's got a great Cat Stevens

cover

and

an NXS album which was an Aussie band.

Hutchinson as lead singer and those are

my rotation

especially Rattle and Hum. Rattle and

hum very socially conscious album about

oppression and and and silver and gold

man that's what we're all after. Oh

yeah. You think that's going to get you

to the higher ground? Oh, the evils of

of of you know, capitalism gone wrong

and things like that and freeing Nelson

Mandela and all and I'm worldly things

that Bono and you two were talking

about. We're like, "Oo, making sense to

me. I'm outside of my home. I'm in a

formal little island." You learn, you

know, to have an object first objective

look back at your own life. When you

leave what you know, you find out a lot

about what you actually know. And all of

a sudden, I'm seeing what my life was

as that kid who got the money and I'm

flowing. And I'm start look back going,

I miss that. But I'm also going like,

you're kind of good time rolling,

Charlie. You're you're you're popular.

Everything's going great for you. I

didn't have any resistance in front of

me, which was fine. But boy, now I got a

lot of resistance in front of me. I

don't have my friends to talk to. I got

questions coming up. This family's very

have very awkward relationship with the

family. They even wanted me to call him

uh one night said, "From now on, you'll

uh address us as mum and pup."

Which

was a siminal moment because many things

had happened up until that point that

were odd that I was going,

"Okay, that's just a a cultural

difference. That that's you, MCA. Hey,

stay open here. That's a cultural

difference." But I remember the night

they said that and it was the first time

and I needed it. It was 6 months into my

trip. It's the first time I went.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not doing that. It was clear. It's

the first time I had clarity. Remember,

at this time, I'm reading Lord Byron in

the in the in the the the the library.

The principles come to now see me and

go, "Look, doesn't look like school's

going good for you. We have this thing

called work experience. Let's get you a

job. You won't get paid." So, I worked

at the A&Z Bank. I worked at the

barristers's office. I'm taking these

odd jobs as a carpenter and all these

different things. And my home life is

this over in Australia. I am getting

home. We have dinner at 5. We eat from

5:00 to 5:30. I clean the dishes. I am

immediately going back to my room. Take

a bath.

Listen to one of those three album and

cassettes. Read Lord Byron in the

bathtub.

Work one out.

Six nights a week this I'm running six

miles a day I've become vegetarian. I'm

eating lettuce freaking lettuce head

with ketchup on it. I'm down to 135

pounds. I'm pretty dog on sure that I my

job is to go to South Africa and I'm

supposed to I'm going to be a monk and

that's that's that's where I'm going.

Now I look back now and I see, oh, I

needed these disciplines to give me a

sense of measurement each day of, oh,

I've got my own thing going here because

my home life, I was lost, man. I'm lost.

I don't have any. I'm writing 16page

letters to myself and I'm returning them

with a 17-page letter.

Socratic letters to myself

about what? existential huge existential

questions mixed in with oh everything is

going great trying to talk myself into

keeping my head up you know what I mean

but I chose in hindsight I was like why

didn't you come home early

and I remember it very clearly when I

said yes I'll go become an exchange

student the ambassador the American

ambassador said sign this contract that

says you won't return till a full year

unless there's a fatal ality in your

family or you're majorly sick. And I

said, I'm not signing that. I'll give

you a handshake on it, man, cuz I'm

going over there for the year. I'm not

pulling the parachute.

And I remember

that handshake. And I remember what my

dad told me about what it happens when

two men shake a hand, that you don't

need a contract, that that is the

contract. And I had a certain honor with

that. There was no way I was coming

home. If I had come home, I'd have felt

like I did my dad wrong. So, while I'm

over in Australia going inside out,

imploding,

I start to find a little power in the

fact that, oh man, the harder this gets,

the greater the reward there's going to

be on the other side once I get out of

here. Cuz because it was non-negotiable.

I was staying the year. So, I never gave

my mind the the chance to go, well, you

could go home. Uh-uh. That was never on

my my proverbial mental table as a

choice. So I start to get identity off

the strength of making that choice. The

rest of the year became much easier. At

least some of the troubles I was having,

I was laughing at. I wasn't going to the

bathtub at 5:30 doing what I was doing

many years near many times a week, if at

all. All of a sudden, I'm kind of

starting to live a little life and

dancing with it going, "Yeah, man. It's

just not easy." But this is how it is.

We got it. got I'm writing

writing first poems in there that I

wrote.

>> And then life brings you back to Texas

to study law.

>> Yeah.

>> Which um

doesn't end up working out for you

because in your sophomore year you start

questioning yourself. I think based on

this little book.

>> Yep. That book right there is a gift.

>> So you're studying law and you start

questioning yourself because of

something you read in this book.

So, this book between my was the end of

my sophomore year. I'm headed towards

law school going to take my finals.

I was a study bug. I made A's across the

board.

And all of a sudden, for the first time

in my life, I go, "Dude, you got this.

You don't need to study this anymore."

And I shut my books. Had never done that

before. And now I got two hours before

my first exam. I look over and there's a

stack of magazines over here. Sports

Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse. I'm

like, I don't like sports. I like women,

too. Let's check these out. I get them.

I flip through. Nothing. Nothing.

Nothing. After about the seventh

magazine deep, I look down

and this

book is laying there. And this is what's

facing me in this. It was in the middle

of the stack of the magazines. And I

look at I go, "The greatest salesman in

the world." And I said loud. I go,

"Who's that?"

I pick it up.

And I start reading first chapters about

forming good habits and becoming their

slave. And I remember thinking, well, if

you're going to go against yourself and

go to law school, you're just going to

say, "Yeah, I think I'll do it." That's

not that's not a good habit, man. Hey,

that's not a good habit for you. You

might be missing out on something. You

better create a new habit of just doing

what you think you were expected to do.

That was the thinking in my mind. And I

said, "All right, well, I'm going to

I want to go to film school.

I don't want to go to law school. I want

to go to film school

>> simply because the book mentioned that

having the habit of doing something just

because you think you should or can is

>> I even that part I I verbalized that

doesn't even say that directly just

saying I will form good habits and

become their slave and I was like if I

go to law school that's making me a

slave to a bad habit

>> and the bad habit being

>> bad habit being

you be good at it it's kind of what

you're supposed to do. It's all you've

ever kind of thought you were doing.

It's what everyone expects you to do in

the family. But remember, I'm stay

keeping me up at night. Ah, long 20s. I

don't know. I've also got this other

thing. I've got a friend telling me your

short stories are good, man. You can

tell a good story. We film making. You

could tell that sounds fun. Then I go,

my dad's paying for school.

I got to get permission from him first.

So I go, okay, what's a good time to

call him? I remember I planned it out. I

said it was Monday and I said, "I'll

call him now." I said, "No, no, no. He's

at work. Don't call him now at work.

He's he doesn't won't be able to

compartmentalize. This is going to come

out of left field for him. He's in the

middle of pipe sales, right?" I said,

"I'll call him tonight." And said, "No,

no, no. Monday back from work. It's a

stressful day.

Tuesday night, 7:30, second day of the

week, he's into the work week. He'll

have eaten dinner. He's on the couch

having a beer with mom."

Called him at 7:36 p.m. I remember the

number.

Hey Pop. Hey, what's up monkey man?

Listen, can I talk about something?

Sure. I said, ' Dad,

I don't want to go to law school

anymore. I want to go to film school.

And I'm like, little beat of sweat

starts to go down the back of my neck.

I'm like, here it comes. You want to

what? I thought he was going to go into

all this stuff about my ass. You think

I'm with that? You know, that can be a

hobby, but know that's not a drill job.

I thought all this was coming. And after

about a 5-second pause, he goes, I hear

this. Are you sure that's what you want

to do?

Yes, sir.

Another long pause.

Then I hear, "Well,

don't halfass it."

And I remember just beaming, hopping up

just like,

"Yes, launchpad, man." And my dad not

only said okay in the way he said don't

half ass. It was also okay. Let's go big

boy. Own that [ __ ] Get some leverage.

Get some horsepower behind where you're

going. Go do it. And I remember to this

day and I've learned this later I think

from becoming a father. Part of what I

believe happened to him and why he said

that to me that way on that call

was the way that I asked him how I just

I wasn't really asking was I don't want

to go to law school dad I want to go to

film school. I didn't stutter. He heard

his son saying this is what I want to

do. And what I think happened to him in

that moment is what I think any father,

any parent loves is you you raise your

kids in a certain way. And you give them

a guideline, a ladder to climb, and

here's the guidelines, and if you do it

this way, you're most likely going to

have some success in life, and it'll

work out for you. And then when we do it

that way, we can be proud parents. But

what do we really want to happen when

our parents when our kids are out of the

house and they're on their own? We kind

of want him to call one day and go, "I'm

breaking out. I'm going my own way. I'm

going my own way." And as a parent, we

go, as much as it may scare us, we're

going, "Yes."

I gave my kid the confidence and the

courage and the foundation to say

they're going to go their own way. And

in a way, I think every parent honors

and loves that moment. And I heard my

dad when he didn't hear me stutter, when

he heard me directly say what I said.

than that. I wasn't really asking him

even though uh I was out of respect

asking him the way I said it. I wasn't

asking him and I think he felt that. And

don't halfass it.

>> Don't halfass it. As a philosophy for

life, how important has that proven to

be since then? Because you've remembered

it and I've heard you

>> reference it as being important. Look,

I've it be it's become quite and again

not it's become more than intellectually

important or more than something I don't

you know I don't need to put it on my

fridge to remind me. Um it has become

important in relationships. It has

become important in work. It has become

important in self-help. It has become

important for my own spirituality. It's

become important for me as a father, as

a husband.

Relationship wise don't have asset.

What's that's turned into me is another

sort of theory I have and I call it own

don't rent. Going with an owner's

mindset into relationships.

Most relationships that we make, hire an

assistant or girlfriend, boyfriend, most

of them don't last the whole life.

But I believe that if you go into those

with the idea that I want it to be a

lifer, if this works out, hopefully this

is forever. Usually they don't end up

being that. But the owner's mentality

will give you that per you and that

person the dignity and the power to go

they we can be everything we can be in

this relationship. And if it doesn't

work out, we say it didn't work out. But

if I'm going with the renters's

mentality, I'll flip it. Yeah, I'll do

this for a few weeks. Yeah. All right.

this. I don't know if this kid's going

to make it. Maybe maybe a couple months.

You're not going to get the most out of

that person.

>> Well, it was like you in Australia, you

went in committed to owning that full

experience and not leaving. And there's

something really people tell me all the

time, especially married people, cuz I

ask them, I say, "What's why do people

get married? Why don't you just, you

know,

>> why do you need the contract?" And they

talked to me about how going in with

comm commitment itself

changes how you deal with the

inevitability of the messiness. The

messiness that you saw in your parents'

relationships and the and and challenge

itself like challenge as you saw in

Australia but also in your parents'

marriage is like inbuilt into all things

meaningful. And if you go with that

renter mentality the first red light

you're out you know what you do

something happen you're like oh this is

a sign of things to come.

>> Oh this is only going to get wor. No,

when you get married, you're like,

"We're owning this." Oh, my alarms, the

spider sense, my alarms didn't start

going off because we're going to work

through this. And if it does become a

habit, we'll work through it. Or it's a

one-off and I just got to put up with it

because they like to do what they're

doing more than I don't like them doing

that, which is another good measurement.

You know,

>> I guess it begs the question about the

the role or the benefit of having plan B

is because we're increasingly told to

have plan B in a relationship or plan C,

D, and E. And and in work, a plan C, D,

and E. And

>> options,

>> Yeah.

>> can make us a tyrant. Too many options

can make a tyrant of any of us, man.

>> You know what I mean? So can

conveniences, you know what I mean?

>> Yeah. And you when you don't give

yourself that option and mind you

there's plenty of divorces out there

that were necessary and were good for

both of them

problem. But I think there's more

divorces

because

someone had a little gave themsel the

out had the renters mentality.

First son of smoke I'm going to say

there's fire be easier to get out of

here. Path lease resistance. Sorry. I

think too many people quit. I think

that's that that's more of a problem

than the divorces that are ones that

turned out to be good.

So many people are at that stage in

their life where they're they might have

that bad habit that you described. They

might know that they're in a situation

which isn't for them. Maybe their

parents gave them this idea. Society

pushed them into that position. And uh I

think it's the uncertainty that keeps

them trapped. like the certain misery is

often much more appealing than the

uncertainty.

>> Yay.

>> And I I just want you you managed to to

make that change which is quite rare.

>> Well, what that reminds me of is I

started to become a little cynical which

is different than being skeptical. I

believe it we go from innocence when

we're born to naive to skepticism where

we're discerning and discriminate on

choices. We have judgment.

And then the next one is off the cliff.

what I think is cynicism.

The misery of cynicism is a hell of a

lot easier

than the optimism and belief of

skepticism.

Hell of a lot easier. It's a ah easy.

Bam. Put it down. Oh, that's hard. Bam.

I'm out. The individuality.

Bam. No, man. If it's hard, if I sweat,

don't do it. Uh-uh. Bam. Easier to put

him down. Hey, everyone just laughed at

my joke. See, it was easy. I was a life

of the party.

I think less respected once you leave

that situation, but you you you now

you're living in in in doubt and you're

let you're also doubting yourself that I

don't want to work that hard. I don't

want to see if I can make that work

anymore. I don't want to give that

person the benefit of the doubt because

it can be a lot of work and they're

going to [ __ ] screw up and I'm going

to go told you so. Nah. So, let's not

even try it. Or if I do try it, let's

just rent.

Let's do more than just sign that

prenup.

You know what I mean? Uh there there's

there's parachute we give oursel the

options in the parachutes in too many

places. We pull it early when we could

still be flying even though maybe rocky

flight. Pull that some [ __ ] Okay. It

was a safe move.

Got down to the ground.

What I was building didn't last.

Sometimes maybe it shouldn't. I think

most of the time it could if you'd have

hung in there, both of you.

>> Before we started recording, we were

having a little bit of a chat about a

thought that's been on my mind recently

about um how independence and I guess an

abundance of choice kind of links to

that might be leading people astray

because the most it appears to me the

most fulfilled people that I know

generally have a lot of dependence. The

culture we live in tells us to like be

our own boss, stand on your own two

feet, more people are lonely than ever,

less friends than ever, less likely to

have kids, less likely to get married.

And it feels like independence. Uh, and

those people often I I think are

struggling.

I think of so many of my friends, one in

particular that I've mentioned a few

times, who

>> 38 years old, living the life of

independence, like a picture of

independence.

>> Skyrise apartment, single, no kids,

freelancer, so not going to a team,

working from his home. And then, you

know, one of my best friends, 6 months

later, I see him in person, and he's

flown to America, been baptized, and

tells me that for 3 or 4 months, he just

couldn't get out of bed. There was no

meaning in his life. And so now he's a

>> interesting,

>> you know, strongly Christian man. And

we're seeing this, especially with young

men in particular, we're seeing more and

more of them turn to religion.

>> Um, and I'm wondering what's going on

there.

>> Yeah.

Let's stay on young men for a while. And

this does not exclude young women, but

for the sake of this conversation, I'm

going to block it over here and say

young men.

We want and need

to be relied on.

We want and need to be depended on.

and a sheer independent individual

lifestyle with nothing that you're

responsible for outside of what you only

need. Nothing. No other gardens you have

to tend to career relationally. No other

collective communal.

Oh, thank you. I needed that.

Who who relies on us?

How much do we need to rely on others?

There's another question and I don't

know that answer. It'd be fun to discuss

it. How much do we need to be how much

do we need to depend on others? I I one

of my self-reliance is at the top of my

value system and I don't think it is

contradictory to faith. I actually think

that free will and faith again are here.

As a believer, I believe that it's all

been written. And at the same time, I

believe God's going, I need your hands

on the wheel, man.

Hey, you're steering this, okay? Don't

just rely on fate. Too many people doing

that, man. I've had my agnostic years

where I was not believer at all fully in

self-reliance. It's on me, everything.

And

I think it was such a valuable few years

because I did need to call myself on

some [ __ ] I did need to say the buck

stops here with you McConn. I did need

to become a quit becoming such a repeat

offender.

You know, I was sinning which means to

miss the mark. Miss have bad aim

literally where it comes from an archery

term. To sin means to miss the mark.

When you think about it like that

becomes more practical, especially for

us agnostics and stuff. I was missing

the mark and it was time for me. I

didn't want to keep forgiving myself on

Sunday and then repeat and do the same

[ __ ] again Monday, Tuesday, Friday and

then go, "Oh, now I can be forgiven." I

was like, "No, man. Forgive me, father.

I know what I'm doing and I'm keep doing

it.

Cut the [ __ ] MCA.

Quit giving yourself that out. that

parachute even though you may have it.

Even though word says grace of God will

forgive you.

Yeah, you need to I needed to strongarm

myself, put my damn hands on the wheel,

look in the mirror and go, it's on you.

Cuz it is. At the same time, when I came

out of that, I was like, "Oh, those two

aren't mutually exclusive." The

self-reliance and belief, I heard God

applauding going, "Thank you. I need

more more like you that go, yes, I'm

responsible. The choices I make today

have to do with where I'll be tomorrow.

Yes, they have consequences. My choices

matter. Thank you. That's what I heard.

But it wasn't exclusive of having faith

and belief again.

>> What caused that period of your life in

your late 20s where you you started to

drift? Because at that time you'd had

your first success.

>> Yeah.

>> As an actor. Um,

>> I think I was living I was g I gave

myself the luxury of living that fully

independent top of the penthouse.

I got money. I decided to go check in at

the Chateau Marmo. I laid down $120,000

tab and said, "Let me know when that's

out."

Me and my dog

couple years bought a pair of leather

pants and a motorcycle. I told myself

for the next two years, if you ever

think you've had too many, order another

one.

Next two years, you ever go, "Oh, maybe

I should have a single, order double."

I exercised it in as healthy way as I

could, but I was sheerely independent.

And I did not I was swimming. I was

transient. It was fun. But when every

day is a Saturday and every night's a

Saturday night, started looking for a

little

I need to break a sweat here. I need

where's the resistance? Where's my I

need my Monday morning

literally and I need it here and I need

it faith faith-wise.

>> Did the loss of your father around um in

your 20s have a big impact on this sort

of unanchoring?

>> No. The loss of the father

dropped the anchor deeper and got more

secure.

That was 92. That was 5 days into

shooting my first film, Days Confused.

The loss of him

one, which was I didn't think he could

die. Obviously, he could and he did.

And it was uh took my mother to kill him

as you know from the story. They made

love on a Monday morning. He had a heart

attack.

>> That's not a bad way to go. I mean,

>> he called it. He called it. He told me

my brothers, "Boys, when I'm going to

go, when I go, I'm going be making love

to your mother." And damn it if he

didn't do it. But him passing away

after the shock in the morning

really woke me up

to go, "Oh, you don't have that."

Talking about parachutes again. You

don't have that one

being in your life that has your back.

That in my mind was above government,

above religion, everything. Oh, if I'm

really in a pinch, dad's got my back.

You don't have that anymore, Matthew.

So, all the things he taught you that

you kind of been acting like, it's time

to become those and put your ass on the

line. Me. I remember that's around the

time I carved into a tree. In the middle

of the night, I woke up and these words

were just stuck. And I went and I was

like, I be less impressed and more

involved.

And my father passing on, the world got

flat.

Things that I revered. Wow. Mortal

things that I revered, people, places,

all of a sudden my eye got level. Things

that I was patronizing and condescending

and looking down my nose at rose up to

eye level and I was like, "Time to

become a man.

Walk forward. Peripheral vision. Get it.

Own yourself. Walk forward with more

courage and start becoming the man you

want to be instead of acting like it and

putting it off.

>> Be less impressed and more involved.

>> More involved. Yeah.

>> What What did you mean by that and where

did that come from?

>> It came from we grew up hardcore on

gratitude. I'm I'm a very thankful guy

and and being thankful and having

gratitude is very important. But you

can't stop there because too much just

oh I'm so happy to be here. You're so

impressed to be here. Thank you for

having me, which we should have. But if

you live only there, I can't even we

can't be present and be involved in

whatever we're doing and do it as well

as we want to do it. You got to go. No,

thank you for letting me be here and I'm

supposed to be here. Now let's go. If

I'm even talking to you, if I'm here

going, "Man, I'm so happy to be here."

If I'm just happy to be here

and go no further than that, I can't

have we can't have this conversation.

I'm I'm not I'm not I won't be there

yet. I can't be grounded enough to have

have it right here. I'd be like, I'd

anticipate my thoughts. I', you know,

say something that may is only the

pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff or

oh, don't want to be mean. So, to be

involved allowed me to be more honest

and have more courage. When we're

involved, we're more honest and have

more courage to do what we're fashioned

to do how we're fashioned to do it. But

if we're only impressed,

you know, and I've had these moments

when I met the Cohen brothers, they're

my favorite directors.

I revered them. Had dinner with them. I

blew it and I fumbled over my wife. Oh,

damn it. Get back because I was nervous.

I was so happy to be there. I was so

impressed to be sitting down with the

Cohen brothers and not involved enough

to sit there and have a conversation and

I look back that night and I go that's

why they never cast me in anything. I

blew it that night and I've since seen

him and I was like that night we met I

want to do over going brothers if you're

out there I want to do

>> this is really transferable advice to

both me as a podcaster because I get to

meet so many of the people that I've

admired for so long especially being a

kid from the UK but also generally for

people just going to to job interviews

and trying out for things that you

really can inadvertently like lower your

perceived value just by being impressed

and not involved.

>> Probably won't get hired that way

either.

>> Yeah.

>> What's what's the hiring person want to

see?

someone who's respectful, but if you

hold them re in reverence, they're like,

you know, there's so many ways to say

it.

>> I don't need my ass kissed, man. I want

to hear I want to meet you. I want I

don't agree with me on everything. You

know, I want to hear you. Ah ah buck

back. And they had a reason behind it.

They weren't, you know, being negative

for or cynical or they weren't just

trying to be contrarian for contrary

reason. They actually had thought about

that and it was challenging. Huh. Think

that in relationships, girls, guys, what

do we like? Not the one that's like,

"Yeah, whatever you want to do." Want

someone goes like, "Oh, how about this?

I got this other idea." Oh.

Oh, interesting. He just reminded me of

a guy interviewed the other day called

Jonah. And Jonah, at the very end of the

call, young guy turned around to me and

said, "You know, by the way, I think you

should completely change this particular

company he was going to be joining of

mine. Completely changed the branding. I

don't think it's good enough." And I

paused and I said to him, I'll never

forget what I said. I said, I want to

say two things to you, Jonah. First, I

jokingly went, how dare you? And

secondly, that is the best thing you

have said in the last hour. Because for

me, he he did exactly what you did. He

wasn't impressed. He was involved. And

he challenged he told me to that

basically our entire brand for this

particular company needed to be changed

and redone. So like, how dare you? And

that is the best thing you have said

>> cuz it did exactly what you said. It

made me think, oh, okay, interesting.

This is who he is and he's of value.

>> Yay. Because people that are impressed

are much less value than those that are

able to, you know,

>> picture here. I mean, this picture said

a lot to me. Maybe it's just the the way

that you're all gathered around.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And this picture. So, that's my oldest

brother, Rooster on the right. That's

Pat Rooster's 10-year-old birthday

present, adopted. Went to go meet his

parents one time when he was 17. Check

his dad's hairline.

Um, that's me.

reverentially looking down on my father

who's holding court at the bar in the

house, Quail Valley, Houston, Texas.

Looks like he just got off the golf

course. Uh I have a t-shirt on. They

have golf shirts on. Looks like I didn't

play with them at that time, but there

were stories probably going on right

there about something that they had just

experienced. And I'm probably a little

I'm trying to, you know, I'm I'm

probably this conversation is probably

more between those two. And I'm going

like, "Oh, I wish I was there in the

stories." Which only happened for me

once I turned 18. I had some stories

before then, but that's what that look

at the reverence with which I'm

>> looking on

to my dad and he was old he was holding

court. He was a ham man. Him and him and

Rooster were were best friends. Um Pat

worked for him. I've got to have a

couple years with him before I went to

uh um

Australia,

a year with him. I know I had I remember

I had more than a full had a full summer

with him, which later on I found out

was their second divorce. I didn't know

it was I thought mom was on an extended

vacation in Florida.

So, he and I had a summer where we got

to hang out. And I got a story in green

lights about a night when I jumped the

bouncer.

A big right of passage to me.

>> Do you miss him?

>> Yeah, I miss him

creatively the most because he he I

found out later and I didn't know he was

doing this. Like I found out later in

life, years after he passed away, we

found all these old paintings in the

garage and we found this pottery that he

made and he loved he had collected art

and he loved charcoal paintings in

pencil black and white. I had no idea

he practiced art or or liked it. And so

when I'm reading a script or I'm

interested in doing a film, I still

think ah I would love to sh I would love

to have sent this to dad and go, "What

do you think?" and talked about, "Hey,

you know anybody like this? What do you

think of this character? What do you

think of the scenario? Hey, you know any

men like this?" Cuz I base a lot of my

characters off of people that I met

through him. I a whole lot There's been

many characters that are based on parts

of my brother Pat who was my hero

growing up. And there's a lot of

characters I've met through my older

brother Rooster, but all those came

through dad.

And I would love I miss having those. I

wish I could have those conversations

with him. I He would have loved the

other night we're at Toronto Film

Festival Premier and Lost Bus. My mom

was in it. She's 93. My little my son's

in it.

That could have been

He would have come to Santa Fe with mom,

you know. He didn't. Mom wanted Mom

wants to be on the stage. Mom, every

performance I've ever done, she's like,

"You did great, Matthew. I see where you

get it from." Right. Dad didn't want to

be on the stage. He could take the

stage, but he would have he would have

seen from the beginning me doing my

thing from the front row and been like,

"There you go, buddy."

So I miss him as a creative partner and

in sharing the declarations when you

have a red carpet and and hearing what's

your opinion on that. Hey watching

movies with me we never watched movies.

I miss that.

um

in his hands, man. He had these healing

hands and we would have been buddies by

now, right? I would have

philosophically wherever we had our

differences, he would have enjoyed the

debates instead of looking at me at 16

going, "Who the hell do you think you

are

talking

bucking like that?" Which is what led

him to go, "You're a great debater. I

want to be the family lawyer." But we'd

have been buddies because at 18 was the

freedom right of passage. That's when he

goes, "You ain't learned it by now, you

ain't gonna learn it." So we would have

I wouldn't have had to hear. This is a

time when I'm still hearing about the

experiences of yesterday and last night,

yearning to one day be able to be there

and be part of the stories. And we did

get a year together where we got to be

part of the same stories, which meant so

much to me. But I would have had years

of that. Do you think he would have been

surprised by the life you've lived

subsequently?

>> No.

My family's got a got an odd thing.

They aren't surprised by [ __ ] man.

Especially any of my success.

I mean, my brothers hadn't even

seen all my movies.

If I invited them to the premiere in

Toronto the other night, they'd have

found every excuse they could not to go

and wouldn't have come.

They don't disrespect or love me any

less for it's just like, man, we know

you little brother.

>> There's something beautiful in that.

>> Do you remember these?

>> Yes.

>> You wrote this roughly around the same

time in '92. Roughly actually when I was

born, funnily enough, I saw the date on

the top and thought, "Oh, that's a few

days off after my birthday."

>> Ah. And again, you put fatherhood number

one, but there's a a series of other

things on this list of your 10 goals in

life. Yeah. Which you wrote in 1992.

>> As you reflect on those goals, do you

wish you hadn't written any of them? And

is there anything else you wish you had

written?

>> No. That that that I wouldn't change a

thing about it.

>> 10 goals in life. Become a father. Find

and keep a woman for me. Keep my

relationship with God. Chase my best

self. Be an egotistical utilitarian.

>> Take more risks. Stay close to mom and

family. Win an Oscar for best actor.

Look back and enjoy the view. Just keep

living.

>> I don't know what I'd add to that.

>> One of the things that you talk you've

talked a few times about is this idea of

like you needing resistance.

>> Yeah.

>> You've said it two or three times and

going back to what it is to be a man and

what it is to be a well orientated,

stable man.

>> Needing resistance.

Is that a goal to aim for? is that

>> I think it's just a necessary necessity

for

having more than just an individual

life

the top of the high-rise with money if

that's if you're successful to do that.

I mean I'm supposing that in whether

it's different words your friend went to

Christianity for this for a very similar

reason.

>> Yeah. It's like certain amount of guilt

is very healthy. It helps us keeps us.

It's boundaries.

>> Boundaries

>> without any shame, without any

embarrassment, without any guilt. Tell

me it's all just four-dimensional.

Where's the form?

Where's the Where's the art? It's It's

four-dimensional. It has no form. You

got to have gravity to have form. You

got to have some resistance to have some

form. You got to push off of something

to go somewhere. You got to be It's very

hard when you're just floating and no

gravity and no resistance to actually

pursue a north star. You have no

leverage.

>> You're floating. Where's the art?

Probably more anarchy than art. So

resistance gives form.

Heard a great artist say this.

Limitations

reveal style.

resistance, something to go or else it's

like green lights. If life's just

nothing but green lights, if you got no

yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or

crisises that stop you, resistance,

what do you just go in circles? Do you

run out of gas, get dizzy?

I don't see that. How do we evolve

or devolve

without resistance? Now, picking the

right resistance

is is an art in itself. It's

challenging. I've been clumsy with it in

my life. When especially when I got

famous and got success and enough people

telling me I love you and the caviar and

the champagne, I was like, "What the

[ __ ] Why me? I don't deserve any of

this. What? I I' I'd [ __ ] things up on

purpose just to say like I'd trip myself

running downhill so I could bloody my

own nose and go, "Ah, now I can feel."

Okay. Okay, now my heels are on the

ground. I need It's clumsy.

So, I don't think we need the kind of

resistance that we create that

can harm us or get in our way for

getting in our way sake because I've

come to learn and I think we all are.

No, when things are going really well,

resistance is gonna come. If you stay if

you stay with if you're if you have any

ambition, resistance is going to come.

We often see resistance as a form of

failure and something that we should

endeavor to avoid. You think about the

avoidance of like people building

families or even,

you know, many people consider that

we're living in a bit of a comfort

crisis. This is slightly a different

sort of analogy but most of the diseases

that we have today whether they're

diseases of I don't know the mind like

you know people feeling lonely and

isolated or physical diseases 80% of

Americans getting back pain but no one

in the had a tribe in Africa getting

back pain they're all a consequence of

us continually choosing comfort

>> y

>> which is a short-term friend but

long-term enemy and resistance I think

is um

is something increasingly we can choose

opt out of

>> it's a choice too I Can I hit a little

point that's on this subject?

>> It's called tips included. And I wrote

this based on participation trophies. Uh

um entitlement. How too much of

something can be just as harmful is not

enough. Uh how we all need good fortune,

good fate, and charity sometimes. But we

shouldn't rely on that.

Okay. Called tips included. All right.

When extra credit's included, credit

doesn't get as due. When more gives us

less, the exchange rates gone a skew.

When amnesty is offered going into the

crime, we're more bound to commit it

because there is no fine. We start

playing to tie instead of going for the

win. When participation is the trophy

for every cow in the pin.

If I stay on the porch because you

picked up the slack. When you look over

your shoulder, I I can't have your back.

If there is no curfew, we're going to

stay out all night. No tab at our bar.

We're going to get drunk and start a

fight. All these long lenses got us

losing our sight. You keep lifting it

for me, I'm going to lose all my might.

When a four-star duty suits a six-star

rate, we take our hands off the wheel

and rely on fate. Eating all we can at

the all we can eat buffet gives us a 3.8

education and a 4.2 GPA.

We steal from ourselves and get away

with the scam. What's the measure of

merit with less give a damn? Hm. These

unlimited options sure have me confused.

While all the conveniences are keeping

me properly lubed

in this red light district with the

[ __ ] of inflation, the ROI's math don't

pay for vacation. So, let's just admit

it. This extra credit is quite a fluffer

because when the tips included, the

service will suffer.

>> That's so good.

But it's about that the conveniences,

the long lenses, everything's like, "Oh,

and and we we've outconvenienced

oursel." What's AI going to do to us?

Talk about convenience. How much, and I

want to keep hearing studies. I wonder

if you have an opinion on this. How much

of you coming up with an idea and then

writing and rewriting it, thinking about

it, no, no, no, no. That's not ex Oh,

no. This is what I really mean and how

to get. How much of that is really

valuable to get it beyond just an

intellectual idea? More valuable than

just going,

"Ah, there it is." Cuz what comes out of

it? Incredibly impressive.

My hunch is that yeah, we can use it for

like uh signpost to help us. Oh, that's

good or that help. Thank you for helping

me organize. But there's a value to us

going through the sweat equity of

learning something.

How you how do you feel about it?

>> I mean ex exactly what you've said but

the the studies have just that have just

come out using different things like

chatbt have actually proven what you've

just said to be true that when people

use AI to produce a piece of work not

only can't they recall what they've made

but they also start speaking in language

more like the AI. So they start to lose

their own voice. But I mean yeah I mean

for through history people like Richard

Fryman the physicist has said the best

way to learn something is to learn it

and then to go through the pain of

writing it condensing it down to a

simple truth like you do so often in

your new book poems and prayers and then

sharing it with the world

>> and then getting the feedback and if if

the world understood it like you meant

it like that poem you just shared you

you you understand it that's evidence

that you get it

>> right. So I think AI is going to be

great for me saying something to you but

not learning something myself. And I

think if you know if you want to defend

creativity and innovation and the

ability to think, you actually have a

huge opportunity which is to go left

when everyone's going right.

>> Right.

>> And it goes to what you were saying

there. You were talking about be careful

when you mess mess with incentives. Like

be careful when you choose the easier

road. Be careful of the unintended

consequences. And AI is a prime example

of an unintended consequence of you

taking the easier road today.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, I just actually made a

video about this, funnily enough, just

just warning my audience about

>> when something appears to be like a

short-term friend, it's usually a

long-term enemy.

>> Like when you know, when you choose easy

today, you choose hard tomorrow. And

>> there's always a trade-off,

>> right?

Do you think if you choose hard today,

you usually get easy tomorrow?

>> I mean, there's a there's obviously a

ton of nuance to this, but um

in many contexts, yes. So, for example,

my think of I was thinking of my father.

My father would never have he would

avoid conflict at all costs. He would

avoid the difficult conversation.

And when I zoom out over the the decades

of his life and marriage, I go, "Man,

that cost you big time."

>> You caught up with him.

>> Oh my god.

>> And me inverting that in my own life and

continually just confronting it head on

has had the complete opposite effect.

You never,

>> you know, like when you were talking

about being a young man and making that

decision cuz you had that voice in your

head saying, "Law might not be my thing

and you made that phone call to your

father."

>> Yeah. Like what what I hear you did is

like you realigned yourself to you. Now

if you hadn't made that call and you let

a couple more of those bad habits, you

would have got to 40 and been like, "Who

the [ __ ] is this guy? What is this

life?" You would have looked around and

said, "Who is she? Who are they? What is

this job?"

>> Right?

>> And that's that course correction

>> that I think requires you to do this the

slightly harder thing today. What do you

think?

>> I agree with you. That's the That's the

resistance that you're choosing. You

know, look,

I still got to learn how to take a

vacation

because, you know, we there's sometimes

when the wind's at our back

and we've earned it.

>> Mhm.

>> There's sometimes when it's easy street

and it's like, "Yeah, don't interrupt

this, man. This is a sweet ass song.

Trust that the hill's coming again.

Don't be so impressed with this and

don't what I have to do is don't fall

into when things are going really well.

I go, "Ah, there it is. That's the

main."

No, it's not. Not with any ambition.

It's not. Or not with life happening.

It's not. But my hunch, I want to see

what you think about this theory is

rather you shoot for an A and make a C.

It's rather better than shooting for a C

and making an F

now. So go for perfection.

Reality always comes in under it.

But in that moment when you see the

inevitable reality, the outcome, the

result, how quickly can we go,

okay, but

I got so much more out of it, the job,

the person, myself, because I went per

for perfection

than if I'd have just gone for no dude,

just I mean, you know, just pass class.

It's again that little that owner's

renters mentality. Mhm.

>> And but what can be hard for me

sometimes is

>> it takes can take me too long to to to

come down from when oh it didn't hit

perfection and maybe it takes me a week

to go dude now do you finally realize

that of course you weren't going to get

perfection but you got so much more out

of it because you went for perfection.

>> Yeah.

>> So be pleased with reality because you

got a you got a good grade on it man.

That war that was that was good. that

piece of art was wouldn't have been that

true if you wouldn't have been I don't

like I say this all the time and I never

mean this in a in a in a in a

disrespectful way. I've never done a

movie or a performance that lived up to

what I thought it could be cuz I'm

thinking it can be divine

comes out maybe majorly inspiring may

speak to masses

even have some magic to it but only it's

divine

>> that's resist that's tension

that

>> yeah unclosed gap. And I think I think

everything that's ever been built that's

great or creatively brilliant has come

from someone who has a big a big

expectation gap. And of course the very

definition of that, you're never going

to close it. And actually the probably

the reason you then are motivated to

move to the next thing and pursue divine

again is because it wasn't divine last

time. Maybe there's still something left

on the table and that's

>> means you never arrive,

>> right?

>> You talk about arrival a lot in the

poems and prayers as well.

I I also was reflecting on your mother's

words where she at a very young age to

you positioned life as a dichotomy of

being humble but like know that you're

the [ __ ] and all those things you went

through and it's the same thing. It's

like strive for protect protection

perfection but also know that nothing

will ever get there and can you can you

be okay with that dissonance

>> right and that and there's a moment and

it's I think it's where the one of the

arts of living is if you if you are

going to prescribe to go shoot for

perfection there's that moment when

reality comes in when you had to declare

and the cards speak for themselves and

it's under

but you because you oversaw It

theory I got called oversee because you

oversee and expect the best this this

divinity out of people and and art and

of yourself and then it always comes in

under. How quickly can you go ah

nice reality?

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Can I ask you a question about that

then? If you had aimed for something to

be perfect and then it delivered itself

as perfect exactly how you had imagined

if if if at all possible,

would that have made you happy? Would

you have been

>> I don't know.

>> You're right. Um

would it have made you scared?

>> Both probably because look, I've had

moments. Let me let me let me tell you

one. uh in in in Africa. I'm in Mali,

Africa,

dogone country. Me and my guy who's a

buddy now, Issa. We're hiking from

village to village in the Banjiagara.

Each village is 10 to 15 miles away. I

went over there needing my anonymity

under the name of David. And I said I

was a writer and a boxer. Well, they

called me Da. Anyway, I uh um they

didn't give a damn about the writing

part, but they were very interested in

the wrestling part. So each village I

would go to start to catch up to me.

Strong white men named Dota. You want

to? And they love to wrestle over there.

They love to wrestle. It's kind of a

form of entertainment. The boys just

walk up and start wrestling. I get to

this one uh village one night. Benji

Matu

and uh I'm laying there. It's 14 mile

hike to get there. I'm laying on the

ground stretch and the village is all

kind of come up around and they're

talking and chattering. And all of a

sudden I hear this chatter and that's

sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I

look up and it's these two boys. They're

about 18 and they're boom boom boom

popping at me and I can be like and I

know enough in the tone I don't know

what they're saying because they're

speaking in bombat. I'm like are they

talking to me? And he goes yes. He goes

they uh uh

they are the wrestlers of the village.

They say they are the best wrestlers in

the village and they are challenging you

to wrestling match. I was like oh they

are. I was like

well they sure are talking a lot. I go I

don't know if they mean it. Do y do

y'all have this thing over here? We have

a thing in America where if someone

talks too much, they really don't. Man,

he goes, "Yes, we have this. We have

this." And just as that happens, you

hear the crowd scream. And I look up and

the two boys bam run off. Why?

Because the real champion wrestler of

the village, Michelle,

5' n, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap

bag wrapped with a rope around his

waist. He showed up. He doesn't say a

word. He just stands over me, points to

me, points to himself, and points over

here. I look over where he's pointing,

and there's a big dirt pit.

My heart starts racing. There's the

challenge. As my heart's beating going,

"Oh no." I start to get up because as

this ear saying, "Oh no," I'm hearing in

this ear, "If you don't, you will regret

this for the rest of your life. You've

got to go do it. This will at least be a

great story to tell."

So, I get up. Village goes crazy. About

80 people have gathered now. The chief

comes out. I'm standing in the middle of

the pit going, "I'm not sure how this is

supposed to go. What are the rules?"

Chief puts his hands on our heads.

Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics

to me. I grab him by the waist. Then he

burrows his forehead down into my

clavicle here, and I burrow mine into

his. So, now we're like two bulls like

this. And the chief puts his hands on

our head and then raises him and goes,

"Tot." And the crowd goes wild.

Ding ding is what? stop men. So, we

start going around, man. And I'm

thinking, okay, I got I get some

leverage on this guy. Legs are like tree

trunks. I'm like, "Oh, I ain't getting

him down low." So, we're scrappling,

grab him. Boom. I get him over. Bam.

Flip him on his back. He flips me back

over. I backflip him off my back at

some. He comes in, gets me in a freaking

leg lock that I can barely breathe. I'm

almost got to tap out from. I shimmy out

of that thing. All of a sudden, Chief

comes in, separates us.

I'm hyperventilating, man. Crowd's going

crazy. He's got a split. Michelle on

this side, me on this side. I had these

talismans that were in my beard. They