Most psychiatrists or neuroscientists

will say there's no way that what we eat

would play a role in something like

depression, bipolar disorder, or

schizophrenia. When you actually start

to pull back the curtain, it's

horrifying.

>> How do we know if our metabolism is

healthy or unhealthy?

>> How's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's

my ability to sleep? Any of those things

should be at least warning signs that

you may have impaired metabolism somehow

or another impacting your brain.

Chris, it is so great to have you here

today and I'm so excited to ask you so

many questions. Thank you for making the

time and and thanks for being here.

>> Thank you so much for having me on.

>> Chris, I want to start with something

that I watched a part of recently. You

recently addressed the Senate and I

thought it was a really powerful speech

you gave and I just wanted the audience

to get context. What was the thesis or

what was the main approach for that

presentation and speech? The overarching

theme of that roundt discussion was that

here in the United States and actually

throughout the world we have an

everinccreasing

chronic disease epidemic and so many

people focus on the epidemics of obesity

and diabetes and there's no doubt that

those are skyrocketing in prevalence and

I was there to represent the mental

health epidemic that is occurring

concurrently that we really can't

separate physical health and mental

health although many people want to but

I think that as we have these escalating

rates of obesity and diabetes we have

escalating rates of a broad range of

mental

illnesses neurodedevelopmental

conditions mental health conditions

mental disorders whatever term you like

even though those things mean very

different things to a lot of people. We

have escalating rates of things like

autism, ADHD, anxiety disorders,

depression, bipolar disorder, substance

use disorders, eating disorders.

It's across the board, across a wide

range of diagnosis.

And the bottom line is that what we're

doing to address these chronic diseases

isn't working. And we need a paradigm

shift. And what are some of the

surprising sources of what's happening

in the world? I think we all know that

social media and the advancement of

technology has some responsibility. We

all know that our, you know, lack of

movement and lack of connection and

isolation has partly a responsibility.

But what are some of the more surprising

or some of the ones that you think we

need to take more serious note of? I

think probably for a lot of people one

of the more surprising things for mental

health

is that the same factors that can play a

role in obesity for example can also

play a role in mental health and the one

that gets overlooked most often is the

role of diet or nutrition. You know if

you talk to most psychiatrists or

neuroscientists

and ask them does diet play a role in

mental health.

Most of them will say probably not

that the brain is just a really

complicated organ and there's no way

that what we eat, nutrition would play a

role in something like ADHD

or even depression and certainly not

something like bipolar disorder or

schizophrenia.

By and large, most people in the mental

health field believe that those are

either

genetic biological disorders

or they are largely due to psychological

and social factors, trauma, stress,

social adversity,

and that those are the causes. But

people leave out what we're putting into

our mouth every day

that actually becomes our brain, becomes

the neurotransmitters,

influences the way every cell in our

body functions.

And yeah, I just want to point out

because this is really difficult for

some people to grasp and they think that

I'm like making stuff up or they think

that like there there's no way that can

be or this is highly speculative. This

must be speculative.

And what I'm here to say is that if you

actually do a deep dive into the

neuroscience literature and the cell

biology literature of the mental health

field, you know, researchers have been

struggling for decades, actually over a

century, to figure out what exactly

causes mental illness. But numerous

lines of evidence have all converged on

this thing called metabolism or

metabolic dysfunction in cells appears

to come up again and again across a wide

range of mental health conditions.

And those same metabolic kind of

biomarkers or

studies come up for things like obesity

and diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

And in fact, people with those metabolic

disorders are more likely to have mental

health conditions and people with mental

health conditions are more likely to

have metabolic disorders. And so, it's

really a way to begin to put the science

together and more importantly help

people truly heal and recover.

Sometimes,

>> what's wrong about our understanding of

metabolism as it stands right now? Most

people when they hear the word

metabolism they usually think about

burning calories and they think that's

what it is. It's just the rate at which

we burn calories and that plays a

significant role in whether we are fat

or thin. Athletes have a slightly more

sophisticated understanding of

metabolism. So, they're into V2 max and

some other metrics of metabolism and

that might make them stronger or faster

or have greater endurance so that they

can run a marathon or they can run 100

miles or whatever they want to do. And

all of those things are in fact true.

Metabolism is related to burning

calories. It is related to athletic

performance.

But it is so much more than that. A

simple way to think about it is it's

this foundational process that living

organisms

use to convert food into energy or

building blocks to maintain or grow our

cells. From a biological stance, it's

foundational in the definition of a

living organism. So, it's kind of

all-encompassing.

And in that way, the scientists have a

hard time arguing with me because

they're like, "Well, if you're saying

that, then yeah, of course, mental

illnesses have to somehow be related to

that." But I quickly stump them when I

start asking them about, "Well, what

about the role of nutrition in that

process?"

And, "Well, well, yeah, it's undeniable

that nutrition plays a foundational role

in metabolism.

So, how do you think it's not related to

mental illness?" And then they're like

almost speechless like, "Well, wait,

you've stumped me. That's no, it can't

be that simple." And in reality, it is.

It is that simple. And when you really

understand the details of it, we can

help even people with severe crippling

mental illnesses. So, most people don't

have a problem thinking that diet might

play a role in mild anxiety or mild

depression. Most people kind of get

that. A lot of parents aren't too

surprised that diet or nutrition might

play a role in ADHD, for example. All

that sugar and processed foods and

artificial dyes and everything else in

our food supply. I think a lot of them

aren't shocked. They're not in disbelief

that that might play a role in the way a

child's brain functions. And those

things are true, but I'm also talking

about the severe crippling mental

illnesses, including things like

schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It's

all of them. They're all interrelated

and they all relate to metabolism. Let's

look at it from a macro viewpoint before

we go into the micro. When I started

learning about a very basic level of

some of these things, i.e. what's really

in processed foods and what's really

going into genetically modified foods

and you know how things are being

processed even at a very basic level. I

was shocked to believe that we could get

away with putting this stuff into food.

Like it's remarkable especially when I

looked at the standards of the FDA

versus some of the standards in the UK

where they're a lot higher in the UK.

I'm not saying they're perfect, but when

I came to America, I just saw like you

didn't even, you know, it felt like you

could just put anything on the back of a

pack or maybe even skip a few things and

people wouldn't be aware. How did we get

that far? Like, how did we get so far

away from creating things that are

actually good for people or at least not

bad for them?

>> It's actually almost somewhat

unbelievable that this is the state of

affairs. And most a lot of people if

they're not really aware of this field

will think that the conversation that

we're about to have or that we're

beginning to have sounds like a

conspiracy theory.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it can't be that bad. The the

government is looking out for us. We

have the Food and Drug Administration.

They're ensuring that our food is safe.

Why are you raising alarms? Why are you

scaring people with this nonsense? Of

course, everything they put in food is

safe. And it's been thoroughly and

rigorously tested. To those people who

are saying, "Yeah, yeah, that's yeah,

yeah, don't don't be conspiracy

theorists, people." Like, don't try to

scare us for no reason. I want to let

you know about, you know, a journal

article that just appeared in the New

England Journal of Medicine, which is

one of the most prestigious medical

journals in the United States, at least,

and arguably in the world. and it just

appeared in the journal a couple of

months ago and it was about the lacks

oversight

of chemicals and food additives in the

food supply in the United States and in

fact about 2 years ago there was an

artificial ingredient called terra

flour.

It sounds so innocent right? It sounds

beautiful. Like terra must be like a

flour and you grind it up or who knows?

Who knows? It sounds lovely.

>> It does. They added this to a new

product, a beef substitute.

And in fact, over 400 people around the

United States were hospitalized, many of

them with liver failure

>> really

>> because of this product. And the FDA

began an investigation when they started

recognizing a lot of people who are

eating this food are getting sick. And

they looked for the usual suspects

initially. They looked for bacterial

infections or contamination. They looked

for, you know, lead poisoning or mercury

or something, some contaminant in the

food. And they couldn't find anything.

And they continued their investigation.

And then at some point they had to start

going through the ingredient list. And

then they came across this innocent

sounding thing called terafflower and

they had to ask well what exactly is

this? And they went to the manufacturer,

what is it? And they said, oh that's a

new thing that we just added. And here's

the kicker. The manufacturer was allowed

to declare for themselves that it was

safe. The FDA doesn't rigorously test

these new chemicals that get added to

our food. They rely on the

manufacturers. It's an honor system

right now in the United States. It's an

honor system that we are supposed to

trust the manufacturers that if they

decide that they want to create a new

chemical and add it to our food

>> and call it an additive

or call it an emulsifier or a food

coloring or whatever they want to do,

they are not absolutely required to

rigorously test it. Instead, they can

simply declare that we consider this

generally recognized as safe or grass

with no requirement of proof that it in

fact is safe. And again, that sounds

outrageous. It sounds unbelievable. And

yet, the FDA just conducted an

investigation two years ago and

concluded that this manufacturer

included that stuff. When you actually

start to pull back the curtain, it's

horrifying.

It's horrifying. About 10,000 chemicals

are in the US food supply and many of

them have not been rigorously tested

for safety, like liver failure safety.

Let alone, and here's the kicker, and

here's the really kind of terrifying

thing. Let alone what impact do these

molecules have on human metabolism

or the human brain.

We don't know. No one knows because

nobody's bothered to ask that question

and nobody's bothered to do the

research.

>> So that becomes a likely culprit in this

chronic disease epidemic that we're

allowing manufacturers to just put all

sorts of stuff into our food without

testing it. And it's certainly one of

the lowerhanging

obvious choices in terms of what might

be driving our chronic disease epidemic.

It's remarkable when you hear it from

that perspective of the idea that we're

all putting things into our body

trusting that they've been tested or at

least being hopeful that someone's

thought about them being good for us.

And not only have they not been tested,

they've been added in without much prior

thought or research or checking. And

it's so hard because you look at so many

people who are struggling today and

people naturally I think put you know

take responsibility and they think God I

need to be better or I need to lose

weight or I need to build muscle or

whatever it is that they want to do but

it almost seems like the system set up

against them. We've been conditioned and

hardwired since we've been young eating

these products. The chemicals have got

into our bodies and of course it's

harder to break that habit. So, I feel

so much empathy and compassion for

anyone who is struggling right now with

their health because it's partly not

their fault.

>> 100%.

I actually think in most cases, in

almost all cases, it's not their fault.

>> Mhm. that they were children at some

point and their parents were feeding

them what they thought was healthy food

and what they are were being told by the

US dietary guideline committee are

healthy foods and what they're still

being told are healthy foods you know

the US dietary guidelines

to date don't mention ultrarocessed

foods they don't mention all of these

artificial ingredients because the

assumption is they don't matter. The

assumption is just make sure you get

enough calories. Try to minimize

saturated fat. Maybe minimize sugar

somewhat.

Less than 10% of your calories from

sugar, which is a lot still.

>> 10% of your nutrition from sugar is a

lot of sugar.

>> But they don't even mention the impact

of these other substances on human

health.

And you know in their defense I think 30

years ago

nobody seemed to be aware of much of

this. There were very few people if any

who were really rigorously researching

this and really fully understood

what is this. But now we have more than

ample evidence. Um, epidemiological

evidence, basic science evidence, animal

studies, all sorts of things, numerous

lines of evidence to all support this

conclusion that these foods are bad for

us. And I think again the thing that I

really want to drill home for people is

that they affect human health broadly.

Yes, they play a role in overweight or

obesity. Yes, they play a role in heart

disease. Yes, they play a role in

diabetes and blood sugars. But let's not

forget

the brain.

That's the tricky thing.

Because what I'm arguing is that in the

same way that eating these foods or too

much of these foods can drive your heart

to actually become pathologically

compromised

to the point of you potentially having a

heart attack.

It can cause your liver to fill up with

fat which impairs its function. It can

cause kidney problems. It can cause

immune system dysfunction

in the way that all of those different

organs are beginning to malfunction.

The confusing thing to a lot of people

is the brain. Because when the brain

malfunctions,

it's usually subtle. And it starts for

most people in the form of

things like brain fog or a lack of

motivation

or depressed mood or mild anxiety

symptoms

or inattention. Like those are the types

of things that most people experience.

And those of course are ubiquitous

symptoms today in society. When you look

at the rates of burnout, for example, we

have record rates of burnout. And most

people would never even associate

burnout

with their metabolic health, let alone

with what they're putting into their

mouth every day.

>> And what I'm saying, I'm not trying to

exonerate the workplace completely. So,

yes, many of us are overworked. Yes,

many of us are going 24/7. Yes, many of

our bosses now expect us to, you know,

respond to emails at midnight because

there's a crisis at work or whatever.

And yes, that is extraordinarily

stressful.

That is absolutely playing a role in

burnout. But so too is the actual

physical health of our brain. And the

reason I can say that so confidently is

because I've had numerous countless

people who have done things like changed

their diet or begun exercising or

prioritize sleep or just taken

themselves off of their screen for so

much

and their burnout

evaporates.

Their work situation doesn't change one

bit, but their tolerance for it changes

immensely. And all of a sudden, they go

from somebody who feels like, "I can't

keep up. I can't keep up. I'm never good

enough. I just can't do this much work.

They're being too hard on me." To, "Why

was I so stressed by this? This actually

isn't that difficult.

>> I'm resilient. I'm smart. I'm efficient.

My brain is on fire. My brain is like, I

just got that report done in one hour

and two months ago it took me two days

to do that report. No wonder I was so

burned out.

>> Yeah.

>> Took me two days to do the report when

it really should have only taken me an

hour to do it. And so when you bring

people's brains back online, a whole new

world opens up.

>> Yeah. You know, hearing that resonates

so strongly for me because I feel that

for so many of us, we know that it's

very unlikely there will be a day soon

enough that our workload will diminish.

Right? If you're waiting for that day

for your work to reduce and the workload

to go down, kind of that's what stresses

us out is knowing that that day isn't

gonna come. And this idea of what you

just said that actually but when you

work on all these things your tolerance

grows and your ability to deal with that

level of stress and pressure grows and

your resilience grows. And it reminds me

a couple of years back maybe even a bit

longer now. I remember I had a choice

and I I saw the choice very consciously.

I either had to slow down or I had to

uplevel my health because I was working

more than ever. I was working harder

than ever. And I didn't want to slow

down because I love what I do and I'm

really grateful I get to do what I do.

But I saw that if I didn't improve my

health drastically, taking into account

sleep, diet, meditation,

working out, exercise, then there was no

way I could keep up. It it was it was

going to be downhill. And having made

all those changes, not that I've

perfected them and I'm still in the

process of always iterating and trying

to get better at all of them and

strengthen different parts, but I found

myself having a much greater capacity

than I ever imagined of what my body and

mind are capable of doing. And again,

I'm grateful I lucky I get to do what I

love. So there's that element for sure

that makes a big difference. But what

you're saying is so true that my

resilience and my tolerance for the

amount of what I do is far greater than

it would have been. And so I I love that

we're not living in this fake land of,

oh yeah, there'll be a day when, you

know, you'll only have to do 50% of that

report. No, you're still gonna have to

do that report, but maybe it won't

stress you out as much. In one way, this

comes down to something that seems so

obvious.

When you say it, it's like everybody's

like, "Yeah, we've heard that a million

times. That's so cliche, like it doesn't

really mean anything." And that is

self-care. that if you're working really

hard, it's actually even more important

that you take time out to meditate or to

prepare a healthful meal instead of

grabbing junk food already prepared

ultrarocessed.

It's even more important that you take

enough time to get adequate sleep. Even

though you feel like you're on a

treadmill and you can't keep up, by not

sleeping, you're slowing down your brain

capacity the next day and now you get

even further behind in your work and

then you feel the need to stay up even

later trying to catch up and now you're

even more sleepd deprived and now your

brain is really not firing on all

cylinders. So the sound bite

recommendation is self-care and

everybody's like, "Yeah, we've heard

that a million times. That's so

worthless. Don't tell us something we

haven't heard." And yet so many

Americans and people around the world

are getting trapped in these vicious

cycles where they're not doing it.

>> I think that when we take enough time,

it's not even take time to slow down cuz

I love what you just said.

I want people to live life with vigor. I

want people to have passion.

There are so many problems in the world.

We need people to be passionate and like

step up and like be there. Be there for

your career. Be there for other people.

Be there for your family. Be there for

your friends. That means doing stuff. It

doesn't mean slowing down and watching

Netflix all night. It it means doing

stuff, but make sure that you're doing

enough selfcare so that that engine can

keep running and so that that passion

remains. Do you feel the right people

were in the room that day who heard you

that can make a change? Where do you

feel the change from a macro level needs

to come from? And do you think we're in

a phase where we're going to go into

that change or do you not feel hopeful?

it ends up getting really complicated

especially in terms of the politics

because you know we had an election and

I've spoken with a couple of reporters

who actually said that roundt discussion

really put the make America healthy

again movement on fire and really

allowed it to spread. The reality is

that we have a new incoming

administration.

I want to just say for the record, I

fully recognize how politically divisive

the election has been.

How some people are not at all happy

about the election results. Some people

are terrified. What's going to happen?

Some people are angry. I'm hearing from

those people all the time.

And yet I want to say that there are

opportunities as well. And

I think that right now, especially in

healthcare and the National Institutes

of Health,

that there are going to be some

disruptive changes coming.

Time will tell whether

that ends up being a good thing or a bad

thing. And the thing that I'm most

hopeful about is that a national

conversation has begun.

>> Yeah. And just the other day, we had

Senate hearings largely with Democrats.

And we heard from staunch liberal

Democrats like Cy Booker and Bernie

Sanders and others

who were having the exact same

conversations that we had in that

conservative Republican Senate roundt

discussion.

And I think that is

hopeful

because despite the political

animosities and despite all the things

that we are going to disagree on, make

no mistake, like people sometimes do ask

me like what side do you take? I I don't

take a side. I'm a human being with

complex perspectives on a lot of

different issues. I don't think there's

one human being on the planet that I

would say I agree on everything with. So

>> it's probably wise. Yeah.

>> So I am going to have my own sometimes

very strong opinions on different

issues,

but what we can all agree on is that

there is this chronic disease epidemic

that it is primarily metabolic health

disorders and mental health disorders.

And we need to put together that science

and once and for all we need to start

doing something about it. And that

includes taking on corporate corruption

that is largely playing a role in this.

To come back, like concretely, what does

that mean? To come back to what we just

talked about a little bit ago,

manufacturers should not be allowed to

introduce brand new chemicals into food

that is sold in the United States

without rigorous testing.

Why on earth does anybody think that's a

good idea? Mhm.

>> that we have more than enough chemicals

to choose from that are already not

tested. So, we got a lot of work to do

to try to catch up. But why do we need

even more new ones? We don't. For sure.

For sure. Switching to the the more

micro. How do we know if our metabolism

is healthy or unhealthy? How do we feel

it?

>> You know, so I'm really focused on the

brain effects. And unfortunately, there

are not objective tests that people can

go out and get. So, you really do have

to just

subjectively

think through

>> Mhm.

>> how's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's

my ability to sleep?

How's my use of substances? How are my

relationships? How do I interact with

others? Am I having panic attacks? Any

of those things, especially when they're

occurring for no clear reason, should be

at least warning signs that you may have

impaired metabolism somehow or another

impacting your brain.

The good news is that there are some

concrete biomarkers that we can all use

and those are usually the biomarkers

that for what we call metabolic syndrome

and those biomarkers include

low HDL cholesterol, high triglycerides,

high blood sugar, so pre-diabetes,

insulin resistance, whatever it gets

called, high blood pressure, and then

abdominal obesity or extraabdominal fat.

The shocking news for any of your

listeners who don't know this is that

93%

of Americans

currently have one or more

abnormalities.

>> Wow.

>> Among those biomarkers,

>> leaving the brain out of it, in order to

be considered metabolically healthy, you

would have to have none of those five

biomarkers.

And only 7% of American adults currently

gets that. So unfortunately this really

is an epidemic, a chronic disease

epidemic of metabolic and mental health

dysfunction.

>> Let's say people are experiencing those

things as you mentioned. So fluctuation

in mood, they're experiencing brain fog,

they're experiencing low energy. Where

should they start? the basics that I

think people can really do on their own.

And I'll start there and I just want to

say as a caveat because I'm a

psychiatrist who treats like

schizophrenia and bipolar. And so those

those parents are listening to me like

don't give me this fluff. Don't like

give me the real we can we can get to

that. But for the overwhelming majority

of adults and even children,

I would say it breaks into the six

pillars of what we call lifestyle

medicine. And so we're going to look at

diet, nutrition, movement or exercise,

sleep,

minimizing or reducing harmful

substances if you happen to use any of

them, stress reduction practices like

meditation or mindfulness. And then

usually that sixth bucket, people will

talk about relationships

on purpose. I like to broaden it to

purpose.

>> And I think that's one of the primary

roles. is certainly not the only but one

of the primary roles that relationships

serve. So I I kind of say

relationships/purpose.

So all of your listeners are already all

over purpose and relationships and

meditation and mindfulness reducing

harmful substances. It's pretty obvious.

I'm talking about alcohol, marijuana,

smoking, vaping, those kind of things.

So those are not good for you. No, no

matter what you've heard, no matter who

said this vape is really good for you,

it's really not good.

>> Why is it not good? What's it doing?

>> So, it depends on what's in the vape.

But we are actually not designed to

inhale chemicals into our lungs.

>> Interesting.

>> Our lungs are not supposed to have this

vape chemical in them. And you know,

there have been extreme examples where

people actually develop life-threatening

kind of pneumonia type situations from

possibly contaminated vapes, but we know

from long-term studies that people who

are vaping are more likely to still have

health conditions. On that specific

topic, if somebody is smoking tobacco

and they can't stop smoking tobacco, is

vaping better for them? Yes, it is

better for them. So if if you're moving

from smoking cigarettes, you cannot

quit,

but maybe you could just vape instead of

smoking cigarettes, then go ahead, start

vaping. But then at some point, I want

you to stop vaping because vaping is not

healthy for you.

>> And then it really depends on the

substance that it's in it. Cuz people

are vaping THC, they're vaping nicotine,

they're vaping all sorts of things. And

the the tragic news is like even when

people switch from smoking cigarettes to

vaping nicotine,

more often than not, the nicotine

concentrations

are stratospheric compared to what they

were smoking. And so they end up getting

even more addicted to nicotine than they

ever had been.

And now they really can't stop.

>> What's marijuana doing to the brain?

Marijuana actually has a lot of

constituents. If you're talking about

the whole plant, it's got a lot of

different chemicals in it. Some that

might be neutral. Some will argue might

be beneficial. CBD is the most commonly

touted one that might have some benefits

for people. I think what we can

unequivocally say is that THC is bad for

the human brain. So THC

does a lot of different things. It's

interacting with these receptors

throughout our brain and body. It makes

your heart rate go up. You know, central

to my some of my science work is it can

impair

mitochondrial function. So these tiny

things in our cells called mitochondria,

it can impair their ability to function.

And at the end of the day, the end

result is that we know that people who

smoke a lot of marijuana will have

cognitive impairment. they will have

impairment in motivation.

Now, this is probably not a shock to

most people. So, imagine the teenage boy

in his parents' basement playing video

games all day, smoking weed. He's less

than motivated and he's chillaxed about

it. He's not bothered that he's not

doing a lot. He's not bothered that his

brain doesn't work all that great

because he's relaxed. not a great way to

go through life and certainly not a

great way to have purpose in your life

and relationships and everything else.

But more importantly, it can impair

brain function over time. And the most

striking evidence that we have is that

THC can increase risk for psychosis. And

we know that from animal models. So you

can take an animal that has no choice in

whether they're getting something or

not. But we can give them THC and they

can develop severe brain conditions

like conditions. We've we have a lot of

human data, more epidemiological data

because we can't do a randomized control

trial of a thousand kids and have half

of them smoke marijuana every day and

half of them not. That would never be

approved by an ethics board. So instead,

we have to look at people who are

smoking versus not smoking and seeing

are they more likely to develop

psychotic disorders.

>> And in fact, it seems that they're

probably about four times more likely to

develop something like schizophrenia or

bipolar disorder than people who don't.

So marijuana, not good. Alcohol, similar

kind of story. Not good for your brain,

not good for metabolic health. You know,

I think most people probably know the

exercise recommendation. Move, try to

build muscle. Like even if you're a

couch potato right now and really

overweight, just anything. Walk around

your living room, do some squats, do one

or two jumping jack, like anything. Just

start somewhere. And then I would

probably encourage people to try to get

outside if they're really new to

movement. try to go outside because

you're getting like

multiple interventions at that point.

You're getting away from a screen. So,

don't walk outside with your cell phone

in front of your face. Walk outside and

just enjoy nature. Like, try to be

mindful of your environment. Even if

you're in the city, you can still look

at the sky and see the clouds or look at

what trees might be around or any little

corner park or something.

>> Yeah. So that can become an intervention

where now you're getting some sunlight.

Now you're out in nature. Now you're

practicing some mindfulness as you're

moving your legs and walking around.

You're getting away from screens for at

least a little bit of time and that can

give your brain a break. So lots of ways

to do movement all the way up to do

CrossFit, go run a marathon, like what

whatever you want to do.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And then nutrition. Honestly, nutrition

is the most complicated

story.

And I think the first thing that I want

to just say for everyone is that there's

not a one-sizefits-all nutrition

strategy for all humans. And why is

that? Because different humans have

different sensitivities, allergies,

preferences. They have different gut

microbiota. They have different genetics

and epigenetics that they inherited from

their parents.

They have all sorts of differences. And

so some people are going to do really

well on one type of diet. Some people

might do really great with whole grain

foods and others might have gluten

insensitivity

in the extreme form celiac disease. And

that person is going to do horribly with

whole grain foods. And so there's no

one-izefits-all. Other people might do

great with nuts. Other people might have

fatal allergies to nuts. We just have to

like acknowledge

>> people are different and that's one of

the things that I I'm always challenged

by in even like podcasts or interviews

is people are like well give me the

three recommendations for everyone. It's

like well it's not it's not possible.

Yeah.

>> Unfortunately. So I want to say it's not

that simple

but I don't want people to hear that

phrase it's not that simple and hear it

as it's impossible therefore it's

impossible. It's not impossible. It's

not rocket science. You just have to

know a little bit and you just have to

be willing to experiment a little bit. I

think the universal principle that I

usually recommend very appropriate based

on all of the stuff that we've already

discussed about ultrarocessed foods is

eat real whole foods that your

greatgrandparents

may have seen on their table on a plate

somewhere somehow. And you can process

them yourselves. You can make them into

stews or dishes or whatever. I mean, you

can mash the potatoes if you're into

mashed potatoes. You can you can do all

sorts of things with your food. And I'm

not at all opposed to making your food

delicious with adding spices and other

things to it, but those are all real

whole foods as opposed to the things

that you buy in a plastic bag from the

grocery store that have several

ingredients that you have no idea how to

pronounce. The foods and the actual

makeup of our diet will look different

for everyone because we're so different.

But what do we need to know then about

markers like inflammation? I think those

are the things that are more common,

right? You mentioned their mitochondria

as well. It's like these are the things

that are parts of us that we need to

understand more deeply and then that

will help us figure out well what foods

are right for us and those that are not.

Is that accurate? I think it is accurate

and I think about diet and nutrition

in actually really complex ways.

Most people think about it as

making sure you get enough nutritious

stuff to promote health. So, the most

commonly used term is nutrient-dense

foods. Eat nutrient-dense foods and

you'll be good. And what's wrong with

ultrarocessed foods? Well, nothing

really is wrong with them, but they are

nutrient deficient.

You're just eating calories without the

good nutrients that you need. Mh. Mhm.

And so some dietitians will even say

that go ahead and eat all all the

ultrarocessed foods you want, but then

throw in some broccoli here and there.

Unfortunately, that's not going to work.

So there is a need for nutrition. There

is a need for nutrients for all the

different vitamins and adequate amount

of protein and other things that we

need.

Yes, that's true. But diet and dietary

interventions can be so much more than

that. Some people may benefit from

losing weight in which we want to come

up with strategies to help them

accomplish that. Other people can

actually be metabolically compromised

because they are malnourished or

underweight. So think of somebody with

anorexia nervosa or a cancer patient

with severe unrelenting depression

who can't eat or just has completely

lost his appetite and is nauseous all

the time and is now starving to death

really for all intents and purposes. I

would actually argue that they too have

a metabolic problem but it's

malnutrition. It's a lack of essential

nutrients. And so the intervention for

those people is eat more. We need to

replenish your stores. We need to get

you to have a calorie surplus if

possible. So right there I just

mentioned two polar opposite

interventions. One group needs to lose

weight. Another group needs to gain

weight. And then there are people who

have food sensitivities. So they might

do elimination diets or just try to

figure out what am I sensitive to? What

do I thrive on? What don't I thrive on?

And then the final category that I

usually talk about is kind of a dietary

intervention

that can actually become a treatment

unto itself. It's usually in the form of

fasting or a fasting mimicking diet. And

there are many types of fasting

mimicking diets. Probably the the most

commonly known one is a ketogenic diet,

but there are others. There are plant

sourced low calorie fasting mimicking

diets that researcher Walter Longo is

kind of known for, but ultimately they

are all centered on this process of

going without

or tricking your body that maybe it is

going without even when it's not. which

is kind of the sneaky thing about the

ketogenic diet is it tricks your body

into thinking that it's fasting when

it's really not fasting.

But the reason that is important to just

note is that you know people should not

fast

forever for good health because that's

called starvation and you'll die within

a week or so. Not good for your health.

And so this isn't technically a lifelong

healthy diet that everybody should be

on.

And yet it can have powerful healing

properties when done for the right

amount of time in the right

circumstances.

I mean some people might be skeptical of

this. So in case anyone is, I just want

to point out

every culture on earth has used fasting

as either a healing practice or a

religious practice for millennia.

>> Mhm.

>> I don't think that's a coincidence.

I think that humans in every culture on

earth have noticed

gosh when we fast miracles can sometimes

happen.

>> Yeah. And different cultures or

religions have attributed the mechanism

of action to God, you know, showing

mercy and healing or whatever a variety

of other, you know, we're we're

exercising the demons that were clearly

present.

>> And so all sorts of

explanations

have been evoked over millennia. And

what I'm here to say as a as a physician

and scientist is that the science is now

catching up to say, "Whoa, this actually

is really doing a lot of amazing things

in the body and brain and it is

promoting healing."

Now, if anybody's super religious and

they're a little annoyed with me for

saying it like that, God was probably

involved in biology and physiology, too.

So, if you want to stick with this is

God's thing. This is what God wants us

to do and he shows mercy uh when we do

it. Uh well, he would still probably

work through scientific methods to

change biology and make it work that

way. I don't know. But that's the thing

where we can start to get really

sophisticated with using these

interventions in the with the right

people in the right circumstances

to promote healing and recovery. Earlier

you mentioned clients of yours or people

who are struggling with schizophrenia or

bipolar and you're saying that they

wouldn't appreciate these more surface

level solutions. We'll start with

bipolar which we hear about a lot more

often I feel. what is it? How many

people are struggling with it? And what

are some of the recommended steps there?

>> So, bipolar disorder is one of those

disorders that is skyrocketing in

prevalence.

>> Why is that?

>> I think that with all of them, with all

of the different diagnostic labels,

there's so much disagreement about why

is that? It's such a critical question

and an important question. And I just

want to say for the record, I fully

understand that there are different

explan and the explanations fall into

kind of three categories. I would say

category one, we're just better at

recognizing it and diagnosing it

>> and that's a good thing.

>> It's a really good thing. Everybody's

talking about mental health today. We've

got onpurpose podcast talking about

mental health. And so, of course,

everybody is just getting diagnosed and

getting the treatment they need, but the

rates can't possibly really be

increasing, especially with something

like bipolar, because many in the field

believe it's genetic, and that wouldn't

change in prevalence over such a short

period of time. The second category is

disbelief.

This can't possibly be true. Americans

are just whiny, lazy people. Everybody

loves to have a label. They all want to

be special. Everybody wants to be

special these days. And they all want a

label or more. And so that everybody

wants to have ADD. Everybody's want to

has has this that, the other. And

there's no way this many people can

really have this many mental health

conditions. And so it's all fake. and or

kind of related to that, people are just

seeking pills because they like the

pills. So with ADHD, oh, everybody's

just wants to be on stimulants. They're

all gaming the system. They're all going

into the psychiatrist complaining about

how they have symptoms of ADHD when they

really don't. And really what they just

want is their they want their drugs.

They want Adderall and Rolin and they're

hooked on them. And that's what that's

about.

And then the third category is

no folks. They're they're really

actually going up in prevalence. And I'm

in that category. Not to say that the

other

>> the fed category.

>> Not to say that the other two can't

sometimes occur. Yes, I do know some

people who like labels and probably like

them too much and want attention from

them. And yes, I do think that we are

talking about mental health more and we

are diagnosing people who maybe would

have been missed 30 years ago. I do

think that's real. So I'm not saying

that those aren't true, but I think the

bulk of the statistics cuz the stats are

staggering.

With bipolar disorder in the United

States alone, the rates have doubled in

adults and they're up exponentially in

children and adolesccents.

and like with children and adolescence

just I mean one study found a 4,000%

increase in the diagnosis that was

largely because in the 1960s and '7s

nobody diagnosed children with bipolar

disorder and now we're kind of you know

if they're a little fidgety and moody

and throw tantrums

we might label that bipolar even though

it's not really the definition of

bipolar at all. Some people will

diagnose that as bipolar and start

treating it.

>> The usual treatments for bipolar

disorder are, you know, mood stabilizers

and pretty much mood stabilizers and

lots of other psychiatric meds. And the

unfortunate reality is far too many

people don't respond to those. There are

some who respond beautifully to them,

and I'm all for that. Far too many

don't.

>> Why are they still being given out if

they don't work? I think it's it's

because of that halftruth that they do

sometimes work for some people. And so

you'll have people marching in the

streets kind of figuratively at least

saying this saved my life. Don't take

this away. But for anybody who knows

anyone with bipolar disorder, the

overwhelming majority of people

do not achieve remission and recovery

from the treatment. And we as a field

tell them, you just have a chronic

disorder.

You'll have this for life. We're really

sorry. We don't have cures in

psychiatry. There's no such thing as a

cure.

And you're just going to have to do your

best and manage and we'll do our we'll

do our best to help you. But yeah,

you'll probably be in and out of

hospitals sometimes through no fault of

your own. you'll be taking your pills

religiously

and then the season will change and

you'll have an episode and we just we

just don't know what to do about that. I

think what the real question you were

probably asking me was how could diet

play a role for them.

>> You know, when people hear me talk about

diet can play a role for severe mental

illness, most are still skeptical. But

we now have absolutely hundreds, but

probably I've heard from thousands of

people

who've been diagnosed with bipolar

disorder

who have experienced significant

improvement

and/or remission of their symptoms using

ketogenic diets or fasting mimicking

diets.

And I want to just say upfront because

some people ketogenic can even be kind

of a triggering

word for some people. And I just want to

say upfront, you can do a vegan

ketogenic diet, you can do a vegetarian

ketogenic diet, you can do an omnivore

ketogenic diet, you can do a carnivore

ketogenic diet. So there's a broad range

of foods that people can eat and be on a

ketogenic diet. So it's not about plant

sourced versus animal sourced foods.

It's not about eating bacon all the

time. it. Some people make it that and

and and that it can be ketogenic for

them, but it doesn't have to be all

bacon if you don't want it to be all

bacon. And all bacon probably is not a

healthy diet. I'll just say for the

record, you probably need a little more

nutrition than that. Usually the first

thing that I say for the skeptics who

are like that there's no way that can be

true. This sounds unbelievable or crazy

or it sounds like he's a quacker. He's

selling something. A lot of people think

that you're selling something. I'm like,

well, actually, I don't get paid any

royalties for people who do ketogenic

diets. I wish I did.

I wish there was a ketogenic society

that would give me a 10-centent royalty

or something for everybody who tries it,

but no such luck. I think one of the

really important things to just point

out for any skeptics right off the bat

is that although a lot of people know

the keto diet is this fad weight loss

diet, in fact, it was developed 100

years ago by a physician for one and

only one purpose and that is to stop

seizures.

>> That the ketogenic diet is an epilepsy

treatment.

>> Wow.

>> And it is actually now an evidence-based

epilepsy treatment. We have many

controlled trials. We have two kind of

gold standard medical reviews called the

Cochran reviews that support that the

ketogenic diet is a very effective

treatment for epilepsy, especially

childhood epilepsy, even when

medications fail to stop the seizures.

And the reason that's so important to

point out is that it turns out that we

use epilepsy treatments for a wide range

of mental health conditions but in

particular bipolar disorder. So a lot of

anti-comvulsants

like debacl

gabapentin others are used for they were

actually developed initially for

epilepsy.

They're really epilepsy pills, but most

of your listeners, if they recognize any

of those names, they recognize them as

psychiatric pills or psychiatric

medications because they're most

commonly prescribed for that.

>> And so, in a way, given that we use

epilepsy treatments all the time for

mental health conditions, it shouldn't

be shocking that a diet that can stop

seizures might also play a role for some

people.

>> Yeah. Wow. Oh, I had no idea. That's

fascinating. Like, how how did we even

discover that something that was used

100 years ago for that was possible now

to use again? The first published study

for mental health was in 1965.

Some researchers did a study of women

with schizophrenia, put them on a

ketogenic diet for just two weeks, and

they noticed at least some improvement

in their symptoms.

largely people haven't even really

seriously considered it or thought about

it. And the usually the assumption is

that people with mental illness can't do

a diet,

>> right? That's I mean, yeah,

>> people with mental illness are too

impaired. They're really sick. There's

no way they could do a diet. But what

I'm here to say is that please don't

short change them and underestimate

their determination to get better

because I'm getting people with

schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and

crippling depression

to be able to change their diet and

stick with it. When people are fighting

for their life, it's really amazing what

they're capable of doing even when

they're so impaired.

>> Even when they're so impaired. I'm not

here to say they're not impaired.

I'm also not here to say it's easy. I'm

not here to say like, oh, just tell them

ketogenic diet and then two days later

they're going to be cured. That's not

the way this works. People need support.

They need education. They need a lot of

help. They absolutely need a lot of

help. But it is possible. It is doable.

And when we support these people, they

can do it. And the, you know, the great

news is that although to some people

this may sound anecdotal or Chris

Palmer's making stuff up or what, we now

have 20 controlled trials underway

around the world of the ketogenic diet

for a wide range of mental health

conditions. Eight of them are randomized

controlled trials and we have several

pilot trials, many case reports already

published. I actually just published a

review article on this topic of how

often has the ketogenic diet been used

for mental health conditions. We have

over 50 publications already published

in the literature and over 1,900 people

1,900 people who participated in these

trials and the overwhelming majority of

them found some benefit. No, I'm not

trying to say all of them were cured of

their mental health condition because

mental health is a lot more complicated

than just diet. And I'm not here to say

any one treatment is going to magically

fix everyone cuz that's not the way it

works. And I hear from people around the

world who have suffered from chronic

severe crippling mental illnesses and a

lot of them are getting full remission

sometimes off of their psychiatric

medication. Sometimes they're able to

completely taper off. And even that,

like when they get remission, it's not

like this simple process,

shocking, surprisingly,

cuz you would think that like, oh, if I

put them into remission, they should be

so happy jumping up and down for joy,

smiling all the time. And there's some

of that. There's also this phase that

almost everybody goes through of

profound grief for the life that they've

lost.

They recognize

I just lost 30 years of my life to that

illness.

>> Wow.

>> Why didn't somebody give this to me 30

years ago? Cuz I was in college.

I had a girlfriend.

We were going to get married.

And when I became schizophrenic, I lost

everything.

I had to drop out of college.

I've never had a girlfriend since. I

lost all my friends. I couldn't live

independently anymore.

I gained all this weight.

I've been a pariah in society for 30

years.

And now I'm better. What am I supposed

to do? Chris, when I'm listening to you,

I'm thinking, we've talked about the

macro, we've talked about the micro, but

when I'm hearing you talk about it that

way, I'm like,

what made you dedicate your life to this

work? because this isn't just something

that you do, it's who you are. You can

tell by the passion you have for it, the

the energy you have for the people that

you support and serve and work with

every day. Like you said, you don't have

any skin in the game when you look at it

from a business point of view. So,

where's that coming from? I have had my

own struggles with mental illness from a

very young age in terms of OCD, later

crippling depression, suicidality,

all sorts of things. And I'm happy to go

into that at some point if you want to.

But the real reason I ended up becoming

a psychiatrist is because of my mother

who, you know, I'm I'm from a family of

eight kids.

And when my mom was in her early 40s,

she had been relatively quote unquote

normal up until then. was raising a

family, helping my father run his

business, just living a normal middle

class life in the Midwest. A series of

events happened in her family that were

ridiculously stressful and put a

tremendous burden on her. And she had

what started as what she called a

nervous breakdown

that quickly turned into depression and

suicidality.

and then pretty quickly turned into

psychotic symptoms

and she was hospitalized.

She was medicated. She was getting

psychotherapy.

She was getting all of the treatment

that the mental health field had to

offer. None of it worked. And she ended

up living the rest of her life with a

chronic psychotic disorder. And it

ruined her life. It's not an

understatement. She lost custody of

all of her eight kids. I went to live

with her for a while. We end up homeless

together for a while. I mean, it was a

nightmare. But she loses custody of her

kids. She loses her business. She loses

all of her money. She loses friends,

family, all sorts of things due to this

psychotic disorder. And I saw all of

that happen.

And I was furious with the mental health

field. Furious.

Why are they so incompetent?

Why aren't they helping her? Like, I

knew there was something wrong with her.

It was clear.

She was delusional. She thought she was

Mary Magdalene reincarnated. She thought

the world was ending. She would get

paranoid about people. I mean, all sorts

of symptoms. So, I knew there was

something wrong with her, but I was just

in disbelief that the mental health

field could be so incompetent.

Why aren't they helping her? Why aren't

they making her better? They have a

hospital. What What are they doing? And

when I saw what they were doing, I was

horrified because they were putting her

on medicines that made her seem like a

zombie, but she was still crazy. And I

was like, what what are they do? Are

they poisoning her on purpose? Like,

what what is that? Like, what what are

they doing? And ultimately,

she's the reason I became a psychiatrist

because I saw how devastating mental

illness can be. It's not that

devastating for everybody, thankfully.

Some people have mild, moderate things,

and that's great.

But I saw that it can literally ruin a

person's life. It can ruin an entire

family. and that

she was innocent.

She didn't do anything to deserve any of

that.

She wasn't using drugs. She wasn't There

was no blame,

no way to blame her for any of it.

And I went into the field hoping that

maybe somehow I might be able to make a

difference and do something different.

Thank you for sharing that. It's

incredible that you were able to, you

know, turn a pain into a purpose for

you, even though I can't imagine how

painful it was over those years just

watching that and feeling helpless, I'm

sure, at times and hopeless. And do you

believe that if you knew what you know

now then that there were different ways

of helping and supporting her? 100%.

You know, when when I went into

psychiatry,

I became one of those

evil psychiatrists who just doled out

pills that didn't really work.

And I felt so helpless

and so hopeless for our field because

you had to because those were the only

tools that I had available. And people

would end up in life-threatening

situations. They would be manic and

psychotic and a danger to themselves or

others. and we had to do something. I we

had to keep them alive or I felt

compelled to try to keep them alive and

that was the only tool that I had

learned about. I always

was skeptical of all of it. I always

kept a healthy dose of skepticism about

everything I was doing in the mental

health field cuz I recognized this is

the same thing that they did for my mom

and it didn't work. So why should we

think this is going to be any better?

But I felt helpless. I didn't know what

else to do. I am now

filled with tremendous hope that when we

put it all together, when we put all of

this science together

and we understand

some actual interventions that can

really be done right now in 2024, like a

ketogenic diet,

the science of how that would help a the

brain of someone with schizophrenia gets

really complicated fast. I can

understand that science.

>> I can't.

>> Other people don't need to. They just

need to understand that you're going to

do this diet and we're going to help you

do it and we're going to coach you and

provide support and, you know, and

figure out what what you can do and what

you don't want to do. And it's an

achievable treatment.

It's a realistic,

accessible treatment today in 2024.

And it can save lives.

What I am most hopeful about is the way

that this broader theory

can help us develop even more tools and

treatments and strategies.

And I'm really hopeful

it will force us to rethink a lot of

what we're doing in our field. M

>> it will force us to look for root causes

to use treatments some of them need to

be used sparingly I would argue maybe in

life-threatening situations but then we

need to move on to healthpromoting

treatments I'm in my 50s I don't know

how much more time I have but I think I

have enough time that in my lifetime I

believe it is possible that we will see

a transformation of the mental health

field and we will look back on the way

we treated mental illness in 2024

is almost barbaric

>> and how could they have done that like

why why didn't they use these other

strategies that are so much more

effective I am really hopeful that we

may see that day in the next 10 to 20

years

>> and if there are parents and future

parents listening who have in their

family had a history of mental health

and they don't want to pass it on to

their children. What are the things they

should be looking at? Is it possible to

not pass it on? If you do have genes

that increase risk,

you have passed them on. It's not your

fault as a parent. Your parents did it

to you and their parents did it to them.

And so don't don't don't spend any time

or thought beating yourself up over

that. So genetics do get passed on and

we're not changing those anytime soon.

Epigenetics also get passed on

unfortunately and that gets more

complicated. It means that if you've

been traumatized as a parent, if you had

a horrible childhood, your parents

physically beat you. Surprisingly,

you have passed

at least a glimpse of that experience on

to your children.

>> When people have trauma, especially

prolonged trauma,

it causes changes in what I think we can

safely just call epigenetics.

And that might mean modifications to

your DNA. It might mean me like

microarna molecules and other kind of

things.

that actually can get transferred in

eggs and sperm cells to new children and

can impact their future mental health

and metabolic health. Some parts are

unchangeable. But the good news, the

great news is that genes and even

epigenetics are not the primary

determinants of these illnesses. I

believe environment, the way we live our

lives is

the strongest testament to that is

actually the exponential rise in rates.

Our genes have not changed. Our

epigenetics may have changed, but

epigenetics can change one way or

another. If you are a parent to a child,

we're going to do all of the usual

obvious things. You're going to love

your child. You're going to provide

safety. You're not going to coddle

completely. You're going to let them be

independent, take some risks. You're

going to let them fail every now and

then. You're going to do all of those

things. You're going to really support

and encourage them to have friends and

community. You're going to have them

move. You're going to have them get

outside. All of that stuff. Probably the

single biggest blind spot for most

parents is what you're allowing your

child to put into his or her mouth day

after day after day. If they live in

America,

there is a very, very good chance they

are eating a lot of ultrarocessed foods.

That is something that most people is

not even on their radar. That that could

play a role in brain health. And what

I'm here to say very loudly and clearly

is it can play a role in brain health.

And the one of the best things you could

do on top of all those other basics. So

if somebody's living in poverty in an

abusive household with substance use and

all yes, all of that is much worse than

the diet. all there's and that's

unequivocal. Abuse, substance abuse, all

of that is much worse than what you're

putting in your mouth. But for all of

the other parents who are like, "No,

we're already we we live in a loving

safe home. Our child has all of that.

We're going bending over backwards to

provide all of that." The one thing that

again is a blind spot is nutrition. And

it's not about your child's not getting

enough calories, cuz I know your child's

probably getting more than enough

calories. It's not that your child's not

getting all the vitamins and nutrients

he or she needs. It's that your child is

also getting all of these chemicals that

have been added to the food that are

actually affecting

brain function.

And who knew? Well, increasingly now we

do know. And so now we really need to do

something about that.

>> What are some of the chemicals that

we're convinced are having negative

impacts on our brain health?

>> Convinced. I can't you know I I need to

acknowledge the controversy in the

field. And there are powerful forces

that will work to keep this

controversial.

And what are those powerful forces? You

ask the food companies that make these

products. If I am the maker of Doritos,

I don't want anybody saying bad things

about Doritos.

There's nothing wrong with Doritos.

Everybody should be able to treat

themselves every now and then.

And the Doritos makers

will hire

medical experts

to cast doubt

to say there's no way that Chris Palmer

is right. There's not adequate evidence

for this. That can't be true. Don't

listen to him. He's a conspiracy

theorist. He's just trying to alarm you.

Again, the great news is that

increasingly we have Republicans,

Democrats, many powerful people finally

coming together in a unified way on this

front. So, I'm hopeful.

>> The precise chemicals, it's really hard

to narrow down.

The the biggest challenge is that we

can't do randomized controlled trials in

humans.

If researchers believe that chemical X

is harmful potentially, the ethics

review board would not allow them. Even

if this is ubiquitous in our food

supply, the ethics review board might

say, "No, you can't. We're not going to

allow you to do this study,

>> but it's still going in the product."

>> If your hypothesis is correct and this

is a harmful substance, you're going to

harm

>> Yeah, of course.

>> half of the people in your study. We

can't have you do that. So, it's not

allowed in the study, but it's allowed

in the food.

>> It would be allowed in the food because

it hasn't been proven dangerous.

But if you're exposing people to a

danger and there's no benefit to them,

the ethics board is looking out for the

research participants. And if I'm a

research participant, you know, you want

to test the hypothesis that cyanide is

bad for humans. I'm going to give half

the people cyanide and half of them not.

Um, and just see what happens. the

ethics boards will say, "No, you can't

do that study because your assumption is

that this is a harmful thing and so we

can't have you poison half the

participants." That that that it's not

going to benefit them in any way. So

instead, what we do have are animal

studies. And one of the clearest most

recent examples

of potential harm

to

with a mental health condition based on

this kind of animal research is with a

substance called aspartame or neutrieet.

This is found in over 500 diet foods and

sodas.

It is ubiquitous in our food supply.

Aspartame

is found in Diet Coke, most other diet

sodas. It's it's ubiquitous

in our food supply and it's largely

considered to be perfectly safe. So

researchers actually took mice and they

exposed them to normal doses of

aspartame. So not extra high doses, not

toxic doses, just normal doses that

somebody who's drinking several diet

cokes a day might be exposed to. The

mice who got the aspartame were more

likely to have anxiety like behaviors.

Those anxietylike behaviors

were reduced with Valium, a common

treatment for anxiety. And the reason

the researchers did that part of the

study is they wanted to determine is

this normal anxiety or is this some kind

of weird

aspartame anxiety? Is this is this like

are we inducing some brand new type of

anxiety or is this breadandbut

run-of-the-mill

anxiety disorder? And it was breadandbut

run-of-the-mill anxiety disorder. The

researchers then looked at the brain

function of these mice and sure enough

they found amygdala hyperactivation.

So the amygdala is kind of sometimes

known as like the fear center or the

panic center. So that lined up. Here's

the devastating

part, though, is that the mice who were

given aspartame

went on to have babies

and those babies went on to have babies.

None of the babies

were exposed to aspartame.

But for two generations,

the increased risk for anxietylike

behaviors persisted,

which means that aspartame is inducing

epigenetic changes

that can be transmitted to your children

and your grandchildren.

Now, if if this is mice data from mouse

studies, again, we we will never ever be

able to do these studies in humans. We

can't dissect the amygdala and also that

will never happen.

>> We do have large epidemiological studies

documenting already people who consume a

lot of artificial sweeteners are more

likely to have anxiety disorders.

They're more likely to have depression.

They're more likely to have a wide range

of mental health conditions. So, we've

got probably the best level of evidence

we're ever going to get already in

humans that this does apply to humans,

it seems. But what this means concretely

is that if your mother

drank a lot of Diet Coke, you might have

an anxiety disorder because of that,

even if you have never had a Diet Coke

in your life. Now, of course, more than

likely, you've had plenty of Diet Cokes

cuz if your mother drinks Diet Coke,

she's probably offered you some and you

have probably also been consuming a lot

of it as well.

Now, does that mean everybody who drinks

aspartame has an anxiety disorder? Of

course not. It's one of probably

hundreds or thousands of risk factors.

So, it's just one way to begin to

understand that. But, but that's why I

come back to the generic

recommendation I make, which is if you

are suffering from a mental health

condition or if you want to prevent

mental health conditions, eat real whole

foods. Just eat real food. And aspartame

is not a real food. It's just not.

Definitely. Thank you, Chris. Yeah,

Chris, thank you so much for your

research, openness, vulnerability as

well, going into your own personal

story. And we we end every episode of On

Purpose with a final five. These

questions have to be answered in one

word to one sentence maximum. And so,

Chris Palmer, these are your final five.

The first question is, what is the best

mental health advice you've ever heard

or received?

>> Accept yourself for who you are.

Question number two, what is the worst

mental health advice you've ever heard

or received?

>> Let's talk about your relationship with

your father as a way of understanding

everything that's wrong with you.

>> Question number three, what's something

you used to believe was true about

mental health, but you don't anymore?

>> That chronic severe mental illnesses

are a life sentence.

>> It's changeable. It's not impossible.

>> They are treatable.

Uh, question number four, or what's been

the most important mental health habit

or change you've made in your own life?

Changing my diet. And fifth and final

question, if you could create one law

that everyone in the world had to

follow, what would it be? Be kind to

each other. Chris Palmer, thank you so

much. The book's called Brain Energy.

grateful for your time, your insight,

your research, your openness, and just

thank you for showing up with so much

passion and enthusiasm and energy for

what you're doing. And I'm really really

happy that we got to sit down and spend

this time together. I know that,

you know, I definitely believe in the

gut brain connection and just the value

of what we're putting in our bodies and

how it's affecting our mind. I think you

can if you're still enough, you can feel

it on a daily basis. I love that science

backs it up, but I can probably know it

just from sitting with different foods

and seeing how I feel internally and

noticing the difference. And so, I'm

glad that, you know, all of these

recommendations and solutions are coming

forward for people to actually be able

to make a genuine change in their life

and not a misleading version of change.

So, thank you for your work and thank

you for coming on on purpose today. No,

thank you, Jay, for having me and thank

you for all the work you do to help so

many people, millions and millions of

people. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I

hope you'll come back again. Thanks.

Yeah. If you love this episode, you'll

love my conversation with Dr. Joe

Dispensza on why stress and overthinking

negatively impacts your brain and heart

and how to change your habits that are

on autopilot.

>> Forgiveness is when you overcome the

emotion of your past. And so you feel so

good that you no longer want to feel

bad.

>> If you love this episode, you'll love my

conversation with Emma Watson on why she

stepped away from Hollywood to redefine

success and rediscover her sense of

self. It's not that I have stopped doing

interviews because I want to hide myself

away because I wanted to be able to have

a certain type of conversation that I

didn't seem able to find a space So,